IDEAS DON'T BLEED episode one hundred forty-four | Greg Rucka, part one

♪ Starlin', we've had one hell of a time ♪ ♪ But the question on everybody's mind ♪ ♪ Where is the party? ♪ ♪ Had one hell of a lie? ♪ ♪ Who are the questions on everybody's mind? ♪ - Hello everyone, welcome to Ideas Don't Believe. A comics podcast presented by Ash Can Press, starring Matthew Rosenberg and co-starred Ethan S. Parker and at times Griffin shared and we'll kick off just before introducing our wonderful guest, just really quickly. We'll kick off with our new segment. Ethan checks on Matt. Matt, are you all right? How do you deal with it? You okay with the state of the world and with the state of the podcast? - How long is the segment? - It's a few minutes, just as long as we need to make sure that everything's okay in Rosenberg's world. - Everything's going great. I don't love the starring credit. I think you're the star of the podcast, Ethan. - Oh, thank you. We can discuss it later. - It's more of a right thing. Like it's about who's gonna pay the most. - Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, sure. I get the money and you get the fame, it's my feeling, but yeah, no, I don't have any notes about the world. I think everything is going great. I turn on the news and I, you know. - You just go, yep. - I just do a lot of thumbs-up, I feel like we're good. Everything's good, I'm happy. And, you know, this podcast was always designed as a sort of-- - I'm on the wrong podcast. (laughing) - This podcast is always designed as sort of refuge from the world. - Yeah. - And now, I don't know that we have a point. I think that everyone needs it. - We may not need it, but with that said, I think that this one actually may be our best episode yet and do you want to know why, Ethan? - I would assume it's 'cause it's our best guest. - That is correct. It is our best guest yet. We've had-- - That's great to hear. - A hundred and a number of episodes. I don't know how many-- - Maybe. - I don't think that's correct. - Yeah, 170,000 episodes. (laughing) And we have our best guest ever yet. Mr. Greg Ruckas here. (cheering) - Welcome, Greg. - Thank you. - I feel that that buildup was the revenge for the starring thing you threw. (laughing) - Yeah, we like to shovel off the pressure. We, wherever possible, we shook responsibility. Whoever I introduced, yeah, gets overhyped a lot. - Landed very squarely on my shoulders. I'm delighted to be here. And wildly amused that Matt's a cheerful disposition of the heart of the world. I, I'm there with him. It's great. - It's great, it's great. - Oh my God. - These are cool thoughts. - I can't imagine, I can't imagine living in better times. (laughing) - It's great, I feel great again. It's very rare that you open a newspaper or turn on a TV show and just go, no notes. - That's how I wanna, that's how I wanna written it. - Yeah, yeah. - Greg, we like to, we like to start the podcast off with the same question to everyone. It feels very loaded question for you, but let's do it anyway, which is why comics? - Oh man. - I'm gonna, I'm gonna give you the high brown answer, I guess. - Please. - High brown show. - Because we, yeah, very, very, obviously. - I mean, so clear. (laughing) - I, you can do things with the medium, you can't do in others. And the, for someone like me who can't draw to save his life, the collaborative nature of it, is almost perfectly defined. I've gotten the opportunity to work in a number of storytelling mediums of written prose, of written short stories, of written for television, and I've written for film. And prose is isolating for me. I find it, the older I get, the more difficult I find it. Because it's very much a lonely process. - Sure. - And I have never genuinely been blessed with a good prose editor, meaning a prose editor really engaged with me. Every prose editor I've ever had, when I was doing the Kodiak novels initially, when I was doing Q&C, even with the Jad, the Jad Bell novels are a whole other thing, because I got orphaned, which is its own nightmare. - Sure. - But my editor back in those days, she really didn't want to talk to me. She wanted me to turn in a manuscript, and she would get the manuscript, and she would red line it and send it back, and I'd get a letter. And the letter would be her editorial letter. And if she felt the novel was shit, it would be a multi-page editorial letter. And if she thought it was in pretty good shape, it would be one page, and then she would, she would schedule a single call, and we would discuss the editorial letter, and I would do the revisions, and that would be it. So there was no real interaction there. Film and television, in the main suffer from way too many cooks in that kitchen. - Sure. - And film in particular, in my experience, it looks like I've really never done like small budgets. Like, wow, that sounds really pompous. Let me erase that. All of the films I've been involved with have been big budget productions. - Sure. - And that means more and more people, and more and more voices. So you get not necessarily additive collaboration in some places. Comics are perfectly sized for me in that sense, right? The editorial relationship, the collaborator relationship, regardless of who's working on the book, everybody is bringing in their ideas, and are able to do so in a place where they can all be heard. So, comics more than any other medium I've ever worked in, allow for the creation of something that is genuinely more than the sum of its parts. - Yeah, it's funny, because you said you had an editor who didn't wanna have the conversation, and I've obviously had a lot of great editors and comics who I love and would take a knife for, but also there are quite a few I've had where I'm like, oh, I wish they didn't wanna talk to me, I wish that they could just be like, yeah, you're good. - I've been, there are some great comics editors out there, and there are some comics editors out there who will go nameless, and there are some of them who aren't editors as much as their postman. - Yeah, I know, so, but on the pros front, I had imagined, and it's funny, I was having to dig up some old, I was having to dig up copies of Queen and Country last night, and in the process of going through the pigstie that is my office, I found the notebook that I had started my senior year in college, so this is over 35 years ago, or about 35 years ago, that has in it like the stapled notes from my senior seminar writing professor tearing me a new one, and he did it very gently, this sounds horrible too, but it was literally him, like literally the first sentence is, I found this story very difficult to read. Like it was, and I have this note because it was probably one of the most important writing lessons I ever got, right? But I'm flipping through it, and I found this entry of that I wrote at Bouchercon in Seattle, when I had gone to meet my editor at Bantam after having sold the first two novels, right? It sold the first novel, and there was a two book deal, and I drove up from Eugene, Oregon to Bouchercon, and I met her at her hotel and I wrote these, I have these notes, and oh my God, I stood next to this person at the bar, and I met this person, and Sue Grafton was there, and Bob Irvine mentioned to me, and I saw Bob Irvine and Bob said, I needed to be careful with Kate, and I don't know what that means, but I wanna be able to enter into this relationship with full trust, and now 35 years later, I'm like, oh, I know exactly what he meant. Like, it's, you know, but the flip side is, I was in New York about a month ago, because my youngest daughter graduated from NYU, and-- - Congratulations. - Thank you, oh my God. But yeah, thank you, we're still insanely proud. It's really weird, and I think I had posted something about it, I must have posted something about it, blue sky and makes a grain right here. who was a wonderful editor for me at DC and who I worked with at Lucas Film for a bit. - He remembers meeting Dashel when she was seven. - Yeah. - And they bonded, they got along so well. And literally his note was, oh my God, you know. - Yeah. - So it's, yeah, just a good editor worth their waiting goal. - And the bad editor is a drag shoot on a boat. - So. - I, you know, it's funny the way that like the bad notes or the rough notes, not bad notes, but the tough notes can stick with you. And you talked about, I for years, I don't have it on my computer anymore, but for years, one of my first books ever, I was talking to the editor and saying, well, this is what I want to do. And this is where I want it to go. And he said, well, it's really ambitious. And I said, yeah, like let's be ambitious. And he said, I said, why are we afraid to be ambitious on the book? And he said, that's not the concern. And I said, what's the concern? And he said, I don't know if you are good enough writer to pull it off. And I just was like, oh, damn, I wrote it down. And I was like, that's what I need to say. That's what I need to remember. And I think it's interesting, the things we need from an editor isn't, you know, it's tailored to each person. It's to the moment or to the project. And that note for a long time helped me. It really did. And I can actually see why, right? Because I, and it was, similarly, it was this note. It was Frank Burgon, who is the professor in question. He, he didn't scare me. Yeah, what he did was, leave me to a place where I was willing to scare myself. Sure. Yeah, you know what I mean? Which is that it's a city thing to say to a writer. I don't know if you're good enough, but you should be going, I don't know if I am good enough to execute this. I need to reach for it. And I need to be afraid of, you know, writing from a place to fear is not necessarily a bad place to write from. Yeah, yeah. And, and, and for me, it was, it was a place where I had to learn to prove, but also a place to check myself all the time because I'm, you know, trying, writing is so much like having confidence that you don't have and, and pretending you have confidence, you don't have and also not having confidence that you-- It's the most, I mean, it is, you know, there are times when I think of it as an illness, it is the most bizarre, and if I think I talked about this in a newsletter at some point, it's the most bizarre collision between needing to maintain humility of like, I don't know if I can do this. I need to reach further. I have to try harder. And also the arrogance that I am producing something that people should pay me money to read. Yeah. Yeah, you know, and that's a weird place to live, dude. [LAUGHTER] It is. You know, I was going to ask about the move because I find prose very daunting. I find it very intimidating, but the thing-- and I love my collaborators, and I love it. But in the darkest moments, I think any comics writer is like, I wish this was novel. I wish I would just be alone in a house. God, I don't know, man. Yeah, sorry. You don't-- do you feel that when you're in one camp looking back at the other? I don't. Maybe because I started in novels, and I was in novels for a really long time. You know, I think was-- I was three books in the three of the Kodiaks, and I think when I sort of hooked up with only press for White Out. And I was already beginning to feel the isolation of prose. Like I go away when I'm in a novel because in a way that I don't when I'm writing a comic-- and I'm doing a mini-series for DC right now, you know, we're coming up on the last now 11 issues as of today, of Lazarus. Like Michael has started drawing issue nine as of today. Great. I don't-- and I'm sure you do this, too, right? The stories are always alive in your head, but they're in the backbrain and they're processing or whatnot. When I'm in a novel, they're not quiet. Like all the stuff that's Lazarus is still there percolating, but I can sort of go, OK, open the door. Out, you guys come. Let's out, Jesus. And then close it again. And in a novel, I'll be, you know, I try to set like a word count schedule for myself when I'm actually in the drafting phase. So I'll shoot for like, say, 3,000 words a day. The goal being just get the draft done. So I can get in there and then kick the living shit out of it. But the problem with that is that you'll finish the 3,000 words. And you haven't actually set it down. All you've done has stopped typing for the day. And so you'll go and be doing other things. And I would be having conversations with Jen and in the middle of what we're saying. I'll be like, you know, you know what I need to do. Atticus needs to be like, are you hearing anything? I said, yeah, absolutely. We need to do this. And then tomorrow, we're doing this. And there's this doctor's appointment. But the thing is, back to the date, we'll shut up until it's done. And I don't know why that is with me. And maybe it's just the way that I came into it. Sure. But the result of that is I tend to have for my own purposes, at least. I think a fairly clear idea of what I think is going to work best in what media. Like I have an idea that I've had for years that only really works as a movie. It wouldn't work as a comic. It won't. It won't execute because so much of what is integral to the story is sleight of hand magic. And sleight of hand magic is meaningless in a comic because you don't see it, right? It's just the difference in the gutters. And there's no wonder-- you don't experience any wonder in that. That's literally just going, oh, the artist drew it, and then the artist couldn't draw it, right? Which is wonderful, too. And it's on the way. But that's its own magic. But if I'm going to do a story that is centered on pick pocketing and sleight of hand, then you need to be able to see the technique and expertise in action, right? Penn and Teller don't work as a comic. They work as comedy live, right? And that's an indicative story for me in the way that, oh, I have this idea, this is a novel, I have this idea, this needs the visuals of a comic. And I have an idea, this is going to be-- this is going to require capturing people in motion. Yeah, so I have this-- I wouldn't call it a theory because that implies that I've thought about it more than I have. But obviously in comics, we notice-- comics has what I call a little bit of a little brother complex to other medium and that everybody gets very excited if you were in the writer's room on whatever that 70s show. Like, yeah, you can write amazing Spider-Man. You can come up. And I was like, it doesn't go the other way. No one was like, oh, you wrote three issues of challengers. Like, you should definitely come into-- And it's incorrect, right? Like, we get people coming in from in particular, screen writing mediums, be it television or movies. And I think one of the things we tend to see is they go, oh, no actor is going to screw up my words. I can use all the words I want. I was like, no, no, you can't. Yeah, you need to not-- less words, please, more art. Yeah, it is funny. And I think there's probably-- they just have less examples of it. But I'm sure that TV and film writers, TV writers, in particular, when comics guys come into the writer's room go, "Sky doesn't know what he's doing." I tend to think that the part of this that's not exactly a theory, but is maybe a pre-theory stage, is that your brain sort of wires to a specific medium, that you're natural. And you're one of the odd outliers where you are quite successful and skilled in screen writing and comics and novels. Like how do you-- do you think you broke the mold on that? Why do you think it works for you and doesn't for others? - Okay. That's a thing that you think-- - No, no, no, no. - Honestly, it's a really good question, and I actually can't give you an answer to it. It's the difference between craft and technique. - Okay. - Our craft is as storytellers, right? We, our job is to know what good story is, how to tell a good story, like all of the elements of it, character, theme, dialogue, plot, pacing, right? All of those things we talk about, those are, I think, to me are issues of craft, and they translate from medium to medium, right? A good comic book story should be a good film story. - Sure. - The question isn't how it's translated to medium. It's not a question of, right? And some things won't translate well. - Sure. - Great Gadsby's a perfect example of that. Great Gadsby is an almost impossible movie to make because so much of that novel is about Fitzgerald's prose, and about Nick's point of view. It's a first-person POV. But, but, when we talk about the craft, we are looking at things that are universal across mediums. We know how to create the emotional connections with the reader. We know where they're lacking. We can recognize where it fails. So technique is the issue of, well, then, how do you do that in different medium, right? - So I had started in prose, and I'd been writing prose for really a good fit, you know, I was writing prose at eight. It wasn't good prose, but I was writing prose at eight. So when I saw my first novel, I was 22, 23, and I knew how to make our 26 letters in the English alphabet move around to create a collection of symbols that imparted an emotional meaning, you know. - Yeah. - I could do that in prose. I knew how to do that in prose. And I had dabbled in comics, but didn't really know how to write comics, but I was lucky that I was in a place where I could find sample scripts and see how other people did it, and go like, okay, I'm never writing like Alan Moore, but I can write a script a little bit like Denny O'Neal, so that's kind of cool. I stayed away from writing for the screen for a long time. My manager used to ask, do you want to adapt this? And I'd be like, I'm not, I don't have that skill set. That's a specific skill set. So when I finally felt that I did have this skill set, and it was on the old guard, right? I was like, you know, I want the draft. Let me do the draft. They can fire me after the draft, right? That's what I understand, but I want the first draft. That's the condition of this sale. They have to let me do the draft. And God bless them. Skied answers like, sure, because they were like, what's the worst that happens? It sucks we fire them and we get somebody else in, right? And that's to Hollywood, you know, writers are like sucks. They can, there's never a shortage of them. They can throw them out if there's a hole in it. And there's always somebody willing to sell them more socks, right? Sure. So it was a question of knowing, okay, what are the demands of the mediums? What works and what doesn't in them? And understanding the different techniques required. And that was a lot of study. Yeah. That was a lot of study. Yeah. What's read? What? Sure. What changed for you? What was there a moment where you were like, I think I can do a screenplay now. I think I can, I think I can adapt that to you. Did you have a eureka moment on it or was it just? No, I think I had educated myself enough about the format. And I had read enough screenplays of work that I particularly liked. Then I felt like, okay, I have a way to do this. I write, there are a lot of screenplays. And I'm sure you read these if not written them, right? There are a lot of screenplays out there that are just, they read boring. I've written those again. And then there, but I mean like really tall, like subject, verbal object, subject, the fear of any adjective or adverb is palpable. Sure. And then those same screenplays, then, and I personally, I personally find this off, putting when I read them, will then suddenly go, all caps, bold face, underline, thing happened. And it's like, oh, because you couldn't carry me in the screenplay, so this is to draw my eye on the page that this is a big fucking moment. Yeah. And if your story isn't doing its job well enough to explain this is a big moment, that's a problem with your story, in my opinion, right? That's a problem in your technique of writing. Now, there are plenty very successful screenwriters who pepper their scripts with exclamation points and underlines and italic bold face, new font color. And I find that, I mean, and it works, they're making money. Sure. Personally, I'm offended by it. Yeah. So for me, one of the things that had happened was I had read stuff that I really liked. I had read stuff by writers that I really respected. I, and then I sort of found my voice for a screenplay. There's an argument that says there shouldn't be any authorial voice, right, that the document exists. So it is a architectural document. Yeah. It's a blueprint. Sure. Blueprints aren't, you don't read a blueprint. Yeah, it's near right. You know what? A blueprint is not telling you a story. A blueprint is saying this is the procedure of construction. Yeah. So sort of realizing what my screen writing voice was and finding a way to then. OK, I can have a little fun with this. I can be clear, I can provide the necessary information. And I can give it a little sense of character too. Yeah, I can have fun with it. That really opened it up for me. Yeah. I've always found screenwriting sort of foreign because the way into comics for me was the thing that unlocked comics for me was the idea that it's not, it's not a document for the public. It's a conversation between you and an artist. And an editor is listening in on the phone and a color is just listening in and a letter is listening. But it's a conversation. And that is how I approach all my writing. And the idea that one, it's a conversation between you and 400 crew people and 80 executives immediately stops me in my tracks. Yeah, because it isn't. Yeah. That's the thing. The screenplay is not a conversation. But yeah, I absolutely 100% agree with you. It goes back to what I was thinking about the collaboration and while I'm comics so much, right? I think of it as, and I said this before as well, I think of comic script writing as an epistolary form. I'm writing a letter to all of my collaborators. And the purpose of the letter is to say, this is the story we're here to tell. These are the moments that I think tell the story are our story best and why they're important. As I've grown older, I spend, you know, when I started out, I used to call shots in my screenplays. Yeah, or my screenplays in my comic scripts. I don't do that anymore. Oh, really? The only time I ever do it is if it's a storytelling need, like we need it close up on the hand grabbing the gun, right? Otherwise, I will describe it as we need to see these people in this moment. And this is what's going on emotionally with them in this moment as they are saying these things. And what they are saying emotionally may not match what they're saying in the word bullets, right? But I tend to now as little as possible direct a shot. Is that also in part because you're working with people that you trust only at this point, probably? Yeah, absolutely, but that's implicit in the form as well, right? I've got to, if we're collaborating, then definitely, I have to trust my collaborators. And, you know, there's a risk. If you, if I'm not conveying why these moments matter and what's important in the. moments leading to the emotional result we want at the collective end of the issue or the story or wherever, that's on me. There are collaborated, I have collaborated with people who are in they're just, and this is going to sound horrible, they don't have the skill, they don't have the storytelling chops, right? I work now primarily with collaborators who can do emotional nuance, right? I'm not going to get very far with a collaborator who can't get me the small moments, who can only deliver on, here's a splash page and rippling abs, right? It's like, great. Splash pages and rippling abs are actually entry-level conflict storytelling in the US, sure. Give me a three-sequence, a three-panel sequence without copy of a character fighting off tears, and I'm finding their inner strength, and now I'm golden, right? And that's why that's why I love Lark, right? I can literally tell Michael, and Michael gets scripts for me where I kind of want to open this thing and try to read like this, the, a description, this is very self-indulgent, but I'm not good at anyone. This is from an issue that hasn't come out yet. Look at that. Yeah, it's a sequence between two characters, and it's literally one of them alone in a locker room. She's just showered, and she's dealing with, there's all this internal stuff that's been set up, right? And she's, let me get to it. Yeah, so literally the description is X in the washroom at the base, this is a big industrial locker room facility, a base like this would have, showers, sinks in a row of toilets, it's set. X has her hair down, I'm thinking this may be the first time we've seen her hair out of its braids, et cetera, and it should be quite long, I'm thinking down to her butter, so. She's brushing her hair in front of a mirror fresh from the shower, wearing leggings and military issue sports bra, looking at a reflection conflicted that she's thinking about why instead of you know the fact that they're actually a war. Okay, so that's the right angle there. This is the sense of location, this is the moment, and this is what's going on with the character internally. Next panel, X has finished brushing her hair, now looking at herself, she has to talk to her. Is this the right time to talk to her? If it isn't the right time to talk to her, maybe when would be the right time to talk to her, she shouldn't talk to her. It was a bad idea to ever tell her, she should talk to her. What if she doesn't want to talk to her? Maybe she should talk to somebody else, right? Yeah. That's a panel description. I can only give that to Michael or Nikola, really, because they'll be like, okay, I get what you're after. Yeah. There are artists you put that in front of and they're going to be like, what the hell is this? This isn't a panel description. Where's the punching? Sure. Yeah. So I very much think of it as a screenplay, a tell-plays, an architectural document, a comic book script, is an epistolary document, and an invitation. It's for everybody involved in the process to be like, "Hey, gang, we're putting on a show." I think a lot, hearing that, I mean, that was great, I loved that, but you mentioned reading Alan Moore scripts, and it took me a long time to realize, I like every young writer reads an Alan Moore script to be like, "How does this magic happen?" Well, they were also the only references we had. Yeah, yeah. Like him and gaming scripts, yeah. And it's funny to me because I spent years being like, okay, well, he's a mad wizard for making scripts that look like this, and it took me years of making comics before I realized, oh, but the artists are mad wizards for being able to interpret that. Like I put that in front of 90% of people write or artist whoever, and they don't know what to make of it. It's David Gibbons and David Lloyd and people like that who are sitting there and being like, I know what this is. I understand this language, right? Or J.H. You know, and you know, when we did BAT women, BAT women was one of the most, the initial detective run, was one of the most collaborative writing experience I'd had up until that point. Sure. Jim and I would have like 20 hour conversations over the course of three or four days of what was happening in the issue. Like this is the story, this is what's going to happen. This is, you know, me telling him, this is where we're going, this is why it matters and so on. And him coming back and being like, so I would want to do it this way or I can see this sort of design and so on. So by the time I would actually sit down and write the script, you'd get these scripts that, and this still actually pisses me off on a very minor level, but I'm going to cop to it because it's been long enough. But you'd get these scripts that basically said, you know, PJ, this is that thing we talked about, Jim. Right? And the thing that pissed me off is that book was nominated for an Eisner for its art for its lettering for the coloring didn't get nominated for the writing. And it was one of those moments where I was like, oh, you think they did this all the fuck alone? Yeah. You know what I mean? Sure. And it really did bug me. And normally, I don't really, I don't care. I mean, I really don't care. That one pissed me off. It was like, oh, so nothing else, like they just went off and made it beautiful. Yeah. And told this story. But there was nobody who was guiding the words or shaping the direction or telling, telling them why these moments matter and where the emotion is. Yeah. I mean, that's a funny, that's a funny one for me because I'm a bit of a comics purist and at my heart, I try not to be, but I'm a little bit like, I like a grid. I like panels. I don't like things to break panel borders. And at any time, you take a comic and you have to turn it sideways. I'm like, no, that's like asking me to stand up and spin in my chair in a movie theater. It's just breaking the movie for me. It's not working. And then you get, you know, batwoman from you guys. And it's all of those things. It's the flow and trying to figure it and it works. And to me, it clicked. I said, oh, no, it's not a, it's not that those things are naturally anti-immersive. It's that you have to have the story hold you, you have to have everything that the dialogue and the captions have to grab you. And the art has to not let you go someplace else. Yeah, it's got to be, I mean, and I suppose we say this about any artistic storytelling medium, right? But I can't push you out. I can't kick you out of the story. Sure. And this is, I hated the new mission impossible, final reckoning. I can't stand it. And I just read what I'm on my rewatch, but I'm only up to four. See, I think, I think five is one of the best action movies certainly made in the last 50 years. I think it's up there with Raiders. I think it is, I think it is elegant piece. It's like McCory at his best. It is, it has a thematic story. You know, it's literally Ethan avenging the death of an innocent. No, that is the frame of that whole story. It ends where it begins. You know, I hated final reckoning because there wasn't a single moment in final reckoning where I wasn't watching Tom Cruise. Yeah, that there was no, there's Tom Cruise, but he wants everybody to call him Ethan Hunt. And at least in dead reckoning, I could believe there was a person named Ethan Hunt. Yeah, not in this one. Not in this one. And that was all other sins about the movie story wise and so on to me. That was the unforgivable one. It pushed me out from the start. I was never allowed to be in the world. Maybe if you saw it in IMAX, I was bigger. No, I did see it in IMAX. Oh, maybe if you saw it on your smaller screen. Yeah. Maybe Tom Cruise might have been too big, too much too big on a phone, the illusion sort of. Yeah. And that brings us to the end of part one of our discussion with Greg Rucka. Make sure to check out Lazarus Fallen as well as everything else he's working on by giving him a follow-on blue sky at Rucka Writer. You get the latest episodes of this podcast as well as news, giveaways and even comics delivered straight to your inbox. Go to ashcanpress.com and sign up for the newsletter. We'll be back next week for part two of our discussion. And in the meantime, you can write to us that ideas don't bleed We'll include some of your correspondence on the show and we'd love to hear what you have to say. And big thanks to summer people for our theme song "Where's the Poison?" Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you next time. [Music]