269. "I want to retire, but my wife is too scared"

Here's my question for you today. Do you know exactly what you need to do to reach your first $100,000 in investable money? Most people don't. That's why I created The Road to 100K, a step-by-step program that shows you exactly what to do, where to focus, how long it's going to take to get to 100K, and even how to accelerate your timeline. You can learn more at iwt.com slash 100K. Can you retire? I'm not 100% sure. I want to retire. What's the hesitation? Joe said, I think you feel entitled to retire. It's very frustrating, a little demoralizing. I do more of the emotional labor. And then I feel a little resentful. Meg just kind of skates through. If I didn't have to learn more about our finances, I wouldn't. God, I wish you were a partner in this. The thought of doing that by myself feels very lonely. What do you remember your family saying about money? When you were growing up? Nobody ever taught me anything about credit cards, which got me in a lot of trouble in my 20s. My parents never told the truth. Everything was a lie. Everything was gaslighting. I spent for dopamine. I gambled like an addict. Wow. It was just Joe. What would it mean to you if you had to work longer than necessary? I'd feel resentful. Towards? The world, but also Joe. Are we ready to embrace this new chapter? This is a problem. It's causing us problems. And you have to get good at this. What would you do if you were ready to retire, but your partner was not? Today, I'm talking to Meg and Joe, 63 and 58 years old, and they've been together for over 20 years. Joe has been carrying the weight of the finances in their relationship. She earns more. She manages the money. It turns out that they have spoken to three financial advisors, but they are still paralyzed with the question of if they can retire. I'm kind of wondering, what are they coming here for? Are you advisor shopping to try to get the answer you want? That's actually why I enlisted the help of Facet to give them even more specific scenarios about what their future looks like. Let's take a look at their conscious spending plan. Assets, $2.1 million. Investments, $4.3 million. Savings, $133,000. Debt, $510,000. Total net worth, $6.1 million. What am I doing in my life right now? What is my job that I'm sitting here talking to a couple worth $6.1 million wondering if they can retire? I suspect this question is less about the numbers and more about how they feel. You want to find out? Let's meet Meg and Joe. I'm not a member of Facet, but I have an incentive to endorse them as I have an ongoing fee-based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. These opinions are my own and not a guarantee of a similar result. Facet is an SEC-registered investment advisor. So Meg, you wrote on your application, you said, I'm ready to retire. I'm afraid that my wife's nervousness will keep me at my job longer than necessary. And what do you mean by that, longer than necessary? I mean that we have been to a couple of financial advisors and asked them about retirement. And those financial advisors have said, yeah, you're good to go. And Joe hasn't believed them. And Joe says, I'm not sure. Maybe we can do that, but maybe that would mean I would have to work longer than I want to. And so it never kind of goes past that. It's very frustrating and a little demoralizing for me. Okay. I think it would feel, I'd feel resentful. Towards? The world. But also, Joe, because I feel that we've been told that we can retire. And then there's this continual worry about not being able to. Joe, when you hear Meg say that she does not want to have to work longer than necessary, and that if she had to go through that, she would feel resentful. What's your reaction to that? That feels terrible. I want Meg to have everything that she wants, maybe to a detriment to our relationship sometimes. I want Meg to retire. Okay. And what about for you? Do you want to retire? I would actually like to retire at 60. Ah. And so that's in two years. Okay. So you want to retire at 60 and in two years you will be like 65, 66. Right. Okay. Quite interesting. And do you both agree on that? If you could, you would retire in two years? Yeah, retire tomorrow. Really? Oh, yeah. If that's the case, have you had a conversation where you both said, we want to retire in the next two years. What will it take for us to do that? We're starting to have that conversation. We're putting more practical things in place, like, as opposed to having it be theoretical, thinking like, okay, well, we could have this amount of cash and this amount, you know, here's how we would handle. Okay. Are you able to do it? Can it work? Part of it does come down to a lifestyle question. Yeah. I'm not a hundred percent sure. Okay. You're not sure. Is it a yes or a no? Like, can I tomorrow? No. Two years from now? Two years? Yes. Okay. But that's where kind of the question of the level of retirement kind of comes into play. Got it. What do you think, Meg? Yes or no? If I had to pin you down? I think so because I'm willing to have a lower standard of living in order to retire. Got it. Yeah. Okay. Helpful to know. Actually, pretty cool that you both agree that you could retire. The question is, is it the type of retirement you want, et cetera. But to know that two years from now, you could, if you wanted to, is really cool. Let me understand a little bit more about both of you. How long you've been together? How long have you been married? Are there any children? Tell me a little bit more. We got together in 2005. We got married in 2012 and then again in 13 when it was legalized. No kids. To understand a little bit more about your relationship dynamics, how do you two operate as a team? I'm talking about money, but also maybe are there other parts of life, work, et cetera, where you can just tell me a little bit more about your team dynamics. Okay. The don't believe we're a team around money. A dynamic that has persisted for most of our relationship is that I'm like the gatekeeper and Meg will be like, I want to go on vacation. And I'll be like, can we afford that? And Meg's like, I don't know, because Meg really had very little to do with our finances. So Meg's a social worker and I work in finance. So I think when she moved in with me, it became kind of a natural division of labor for me to just take the finances. My finances were significantly more complicated than Meg's. And so I took it on and she was happy to let me. And that you just kind of glided into that. Yeah. Okay. This is very reminiscent of every straight couple that I talked to. Yeah. It's like exactly the same. It's totally the same. Like, hello, do we need to do the whole emotional labor thing? I don't think so. All right. You slid into it like every couple does. This is great. Meg, were you okay with that? I was. You were like, she's got it. She makes more. She makes more. She makes more. She makes more. She's better at this. I'm going to let her handle it. Is that what your approach was? Partially. Yeah. And also, she made three times what I made when we started living together. Needless to say, my lifestyle was a lot more simple. I really never dealt with property or a lot of tax issues. It just was very straightforward. I balanced my checkbook and that was it. When you came into this relationship, and I'm guessing your lifestyle, Jo, was elevated compared to Meg's? Yes. Okay. Was that an issue at all? I had ambivalence about it. I'm kind of a do-gooder. I've been working in social work, you know, most of my life. And I'm a Quaker. There's a lot about simplicity. And I was a little uncomfortable with the shift up. I mean- Like which part? I mean, I love it now. I mean, don't worry. I'm good with it, but I, you know, I just was like a little uncomfortable with the amount of money that we were spending. What's an example? We'd just get all these Amazon boxes like every day. There would be Amazon boxes coming to our door. I was just thinking, what are we going to do with all this stuff? I was just sort of flabbergasted at the ability. Yeah. I mean, I'm not saying that I'm not going to do anything. I'm just saying that, you know, I'm not going to do anything. I'm just going to do something. part? Who spends it? Can you walk me through that? We have joint bank accounts. Everything's joint and both of our paychecks go into the joint account. Joe is the money manager, keeps track of stuff. Now that we have a CSP, we're setting aside guilt-free spending, pots and stuff like that. And we talk about large purchases. How large is large? Well, right now it's like over $200, which might be a little low. It's not keeping up with inflation, maybe. Maybe we could bump it up a little, but that's a separate conversation. And what about the investments? Who handles that? Joe. Okay. Do you talk about it? I try to, but then Meg's eyes kind of glaze over and I'm like, okay. Got it. And is that you're not interested or you don't understand or all of the above? I'm not as interested in investments and it might be because I don't understand them well. About six months ago, Joe said, I really need you to be more of a partner in our finances. And she asked me to bone up on personal finance. So we both read Money for Couples together and then I got finance for dummies. And I have a very rudimentary knowledge of investments. The other thing is- So I'm not interested in investments. So I'm not interested in investments. So I'm not interested in investments because Joe is very interested in investments and curious and gets excited about certain investments. And that's not my jam. Okay. Why do you think that she said, I need you to get involved as a partner six months ago? She was feeling very stressed about our money. And we were having these discussions about retirement where I was saying, I want to retire. And I think she wanted me to- I think she wanted me to have something to back that up with. Yeah. Nice. When she said that, how did you receive it? I don't think I went in enthusiastically. I mean, it wasn't like she's going to divorce me, but it was a little bit of an ultimatum and I felt that it was required of me as partner to do this. And so I did. Joe, what's your take on that? Do you agree with how Meg characterized it? I do. I do agree that I said this was what I needed and Meg took some definite steps. And now it is really helpful that we go through our spending together. I think the way I feel is that Meg has made a good start and I fear that Meg thinks she's done. Can I first just say, I find this to be incredibly mature and very rare. It's very impressive, truthfully. The fact that- Yeah. You- 20 years ago had this disparity in finances and understanding of money and you made it work. And just recently, Joe, you expressed yourself and said, "Hey, this is what I need from you. I need you to become a partner in this." That's hard enough to say. Okay. Most never say that. Meg, you then received it. And although it doesn't really feel great to hear that kind of stuff, but you were like, "Okay, you read multiple books. You learned how this stuff works." You recognize that if money is a core part of your relationship, you have to be conversant on it. You have to be conversant on any basic part of a relationship. And then you both did it. So I just want to take a second and really celebrate that you are both doing it. Like double thumbs up. Amazing work. Okay. I wish more couples did that. Is there more to do? I'm sure there is. And we can talk about what that looks like, but I don't know. So far I'm just like, wow. Wow. Really cool. It might seem a little absurd to watch hand-wringing over retirement. It's like, isn't that what everybody wants? You work all these years so that eventually you can retire and relax. You have to understand that if you have been working for 30, 40, 50 years, it is really difficult to just turn that off. People are good at what they do. They like being wanted. They like being needed. They also like the cash of knowing that every single month, I'm getting a paycheck. So when you take all of that away all at once, it's incredibly scary. And that's why a lot of people keep pushing their retirement date just one more year. But when you don't have a clear vision of how much enough is, it's easy to just keep pushing it. I just need an extra hundred thousand dollars. I just need to work an extra two years. When you don't know how much enough is, it's never enough. And you just keep working. If we can't get these two on the same page with retirement, I'm worried they'll never retire. Here's my plan of attack. I know a lot of financial advisors and how they run their meetings. They're really good at running this complex analysis and giving you a binder and saying, here you go and look at the drawdown. I'm not going to do any of that. I want to ask them so many questions that they feel more understood than they have ever felt before. I actually want them to discover insights about each other right here in these chairs that they have never known before today. That is how I get them to open up to me, to each other, and to actually connect over the vision that they have for the life they want to live. If I can get Meg and Joe to really get specific about what their fears are, what they want, then we can make the numbers support that. Almost always, if somebody tells me exactly what they want and they are honest about it, we can figure out what they need to do in order to make that happen. The problem is that most people don't actually know what they want. They have no knowledge about what they want. They don't know what they want. They have no knowledge or control over their numbers. So when you try to put it all together, it just becomes this mush. But I think, based on talking to Meg and Joe, that they have a pretty good command of what they want and their numbers. So I need to tweak a little bit at the edges, get them to open up, and then I will try to help them with their money get where they want to go. One of my rich life rules is that I am happy to pay to learn from the best. That's why I have personally paid for MasterClass, this episode's sponsor. One class I really enjoyed taking was "Prepare to be unprepared with Amy Poehler." I'm always interested in trying to improve my speaking skills. 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You'll get 20% off all consumer plans when you go to joindeleteme.com/ramit and use promo code "ramit" at checkout. That's joindeleteme.com/ramit, code "ramit" for 20% off. Do you know exactly what you need to do to reach your first $500 in investable money? Most people don't. You can learn more at iwt.com/100k. Based on the two of you now having a common language, are you working towards the same goal when it comes to your money? I think we're on the right track to be working toward the same goal. A bit of hesitation from both of you. Right now, the goal is to have a nice retirement. And I do feel we're both working towards that goal. And I'm not sure what other goals Joe might have in mind. Joe? One of the goals is for. to stay engaged. And I don't trust that that will happen. be eligible for a pension. And so basically she's going to keep getting a paycheck in essence. And I'm going to have to transition into drawing down our investments. And so there's a lot of decisions to be made around that. And that's where a lot of my anxiety comes from around retiring. And I feel like without better engagement, like that's going to be just on me for like the next 30 years to like handle that emotional labor of like dealing with the fear and dealing with like supervisors. And so the thought of doing that by myself feels very lonely. Okay. And if you could resolve that, what would it mean for you? I think it would mean that a lot of the pressure would feel like it's off getting a paycheck and doing whatever with it is not hard to decide necessarily, but the next phase feels hard. Got it. Okay. That's very helpful. Can I understand a little bit more about how you both grew up? I strongly suspect it influences how you both treat money today. Meg, what do you remember your family saying about money when you were young? I got instruction in how to write a check. I got a bank account when I was 15, 16. My mom taught me how to write a check. Pretty much that was all the education my parents gave me about money, except my dad, who was born in the 20s, always said to me, if you have a dime, you should be able to buy a Coke. That's the lesson you got? Pretty much. What does that tell you? You should be able to spend your money if you've got it. That's the takeaway. If you have your money, you should be able to spend it. As opposed to? I was never taught to save. Your dad who grew up in the 20s, he did not talk about saving. That's surprising to me. He grew up middle class. My mom was very poor. And she was an accountant. I don't know why she didn't teach me more about money. Why do you think? Well, you're supposed to find a husband, right? Right. Thank you. Thank you, Joe. That was it. The idea being? Getting a rich husband. Yep. Get a rich husband. A lot of my education was how to make guys interested in me. From your mom? Yeah. Wow. Well, yeah. So what does that look like? Like how to dress, makeup, hair, that kind of stuff? Maybe dressing, but more like learn about sports. So you can talk about basketball with him. Really? Yeah. And then he'll be interested in you. This is like very old fashioned. Old fashioned. When you're learning this, because I'm presuming you're like seven years old, eight, ten years old. Like, how are you receiving this information? Are you like, I'm not going to really need this? How are you taking it? I wasn't, didn't. Really, no, I was a lesbian until like late high school. So I just thought my mom had a lot of opinions about relationships and how you act in them. And I was trying to brush them off because they were weird to me. Got it. She's still alive? No. Okay. So you didn't learn much about money. You didn't even learn to save, which is like, actually, one of the, the only things that parents tell their kids in America, they don't even take it seriously either. Like they'll be out at an amusement park and they'll be like, here we are at Disneyland. Anyway, you should save your money, kids. Let's go on the ride. Like they don't even take it seriously, but at least they say it, you know? Yeah. I'm actually kind of refreshed. I'd rather just don't say it. Don't even bother lying. Nobody's taking this seriously. I kind of refreshed by your parents. Hey, you got a dime? Buy a Coke. Fine. But the problem is that you end up later in life. Unaware of how to manage money. Totally. I really had no education. They managed their money pretty well. Really? Actually. They had a nice little nest egg at the end. They outlived it, but that wasn't their fault. I mean, I just feel like my mom's just lived a really long time. Yeah. And what happened financially speaking when they outlived it? When my parents went into a residence, they had a residential facility that had a continuing care contract. So they basically bet on you're dying before you run out of money. Yes. But if you don't, they pay for you. So they won the bet. So yeah, my mom did. Got it. Yeah. And did you take any lessons away from that? I feel like we really need a lot of money because I may live a very long time. And isn't that kind of Joe's? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Joe too. Okay. Isn't that kind of Joe's point? Like, I'm not sure if we have enough. Yeah. But you are also like, I just want to retire. Yeah. We've had some discussions where Joe said, I think you feel entitled to retire. And I said, yeah, I do feel entitled to retire. I love the honesty of this conversation. Yeah. I love that. I wish more couples were just like, I think, and you're like, yeah, this is great. I've worked for, you know, all my life. Okay. I, I, I'm, I feel entitled, but that comes from my parents too, I think. Because they retired and then lived a long time. Okay. So I love the honesty of like, yeah, I feel entitled to retire. And then the next sentence in that conversation I would presume is, well, if you retire at this age, this is the lifestyle that you're going to live or we're going to live. Is that where that conversation goes? Yeah. Yeah. And then I say, well. You know, well, how about if we cut back? And then Joe says, I don't think we can cut back. Oh, you can't cut back? I don't have a lot of confidence in us cutting back. It gives me a little panicky feeling, the idea of cutting back. And also I'm not a hundred percent sure I think Meg truly wants to cut back. Did you ever do like a trial? Like let's trial living or something for like three months. Yeah, I didn't. It didn't. It didn't last very long. Really? You did it? Well, I mean, we've tried to like drastically reduce spending months. What'd you, what'd you do? We tried to do DoorDash, no DoorDash for a month and that worked. So it's like, well, I can't give up DoorDash. Oh man. All right. Although we have been doing a lot better when we started on the money for couples journey and we actually got a CSP, we decided how much money we wanted to spend on things and we have really been. Sticking to it. You have. We have. We have. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Maybe not month by month, but it evens out. Yeah, for sure. That's crazy. CSP is magic. I mean, and you know, I'm not being paid to say this. Tell us straight to the camera. Tell them what they need to know. That's so cool. Yeah. So you got this new tool, you both did it together and you created a vision. This is what we want to spend. You redirected your expenses and now you're doing it month to month. That's the way. We are doing it. It's been successful. It has been. Yeah. Yeah. This is giving me a lot of clues because you're telling me through your past actions that it is very likely if you set a specific goal, some numbers and intention, you're going to follow through your, your future performance. The best predictor of that is your past and your past is telling me you got the CSP. You started using it. This is exactly why I do what I do. Great. Thank you for walking me through your childhood. Very helpful. Joe, same question. What do you remember your family saying about money when you were growing up? My family was more the save everything. Don't spend anything. We're not gonna tell you what to do with the money you save, but my parents are immigrants and extremely dysfunctional around money. They've had separate money their entire lives. And uh, my mom is going through some dementia, so my dad asked me to take over her finances and I had to go through boxes of stuff. Yeah. I had to go through boxes of stuff and walk into banks and be like, does my mother have an account here? Uh, and so it's finally all straightened out, but they had no idea what the other has. And so now we know what my mom has, but I still have no idea what my father has. Um, You didn't ask him as you're going through this process. Oh, they won't. That's not it. He says we have enough. Yeah. Which country? My dad's German and my mom's from Ireland and my dad grew up like solidly middle-class, although, you know, he was a child at the end of World War II and my mom grew up poor in Ireland. How did that show up in your childhood that your mom was poor in Ireland? Uh, my mom is extremely, extremely frugal. She was really the one saying, you know, save your money, save your money. And also some lessons that told, tells me now more about their marriage. Like she was like, don't get married until you're 30 at least. How old was she? She was 29 actually. Wow. And she's like, don't get married until you have your own money. Make sure that, you know, you are fully able to support yourself. I'm sure you know some pretty radical ideas at the end of the seventies. Why do you think she said that? Well, because I think she felt trapped in her relationship. She also told her not to have kids. Oh yeah. Kids will ruin your life. Always nice to hear that from your mom. And she's like, oh, I don't mean you. And I'm like, uh huh. I mean, I want to say it's not funny, but it is kind of funny. It's funny when you think about what parents in the past generations, said. Yeah. And like how completely un-PC that is. Yeah. Like just absolutely. Here's how to talk about sports so you can meet a man to your soon to be coming out lesbian daughter. I mean, what world is this? Yeah. But you got to laugh. I mean, what else? Right. You mentioned that she was extremely frugal, your mother. Do you remember her saying anything about money? Like, we don't need a lot to live on or things like that. The refrain of my childhood was a hundred thousand dollars is nothing. A hundred thousand dollars a year. And now keep in mind, this would be like 1980. I mean, that was a lot of money in 1980. Yeah. So I can't do the math in my head, but that's like, let's say $500,000 today. Right. Which is a huge amount of money. Huge amount of money. And my parents, my dad was a chef. My mom was a waitress. I mean, so these are not. So she's just making these numbers up. Yeah, totally. Here's a number that we could never make. And by the way, that's nothing. And that's nothing. Yeah. What do you think she was really saying when she said that? I think it was really, really, it was a roundabout way of telling us to really prioritize security. It was very much like you're going college, you're going East to college, and you're going to be a lawyer. You're going to get like a high paying job. I think that was very much the focus. And do you find yourself bringing some of the messages that you grew up with to this as it relates to money? Yes, for sure. I've worked in the same job since 1993. I just have like a layer of stability, which I think is actually good in some ways. I mean, I think that's like outside of money, even it kind of provided like an emotional stability, but also I make safe choices. Meg is a very safe partner for me. I guess the best example of that is my parents like never told the truth. Like everything was a lie. And Meg, as Quaker, does not lie. And so it's very clear, like this is why. That's a very interesting answer. I did not expect that. It's kind of beautiful, actually. Meg is a safe partner because she tells the truth. And I was surrounded with lies. That's quite, that's quite beautiful. Okay. Thank you for helping me understand that. What's fascinating is that Joe is so confident at work, but predictably, she has brought that scarcity into her relationship with money. By the way, notice that she redefines it. I like security, but a lot of it is just another, maybe slightly more elevated form of scarcity. Did you catch Joe's comment that she doesn't want to have to feel lonely managing the retirement drawdown for the next 30 years? And when she said that to me, I kind of looked around like, why would you? Why would you even have to worry about that at all? To me, that's like worrying about painting the porch every single day for the next 30 years. First of all, I'm not painting a porch. Somebody else is going to come do that for me. And second of all, it's going to be one and done or maybe once every 10 years. Done. I think deep down, Joe just is worried about money and she's finding ways that seem rational to keep her stuck. Well, who's going to have to take on the Not you, Joe. You can find people to help you or better yet, just automate it because a computer can do this for you. We don't need to let these things in our head keep us stuck. And here's a little framework that you can use for yourself. When you've got something that is trapping you, stopping you, you ask yourself this, what if this were easy? What if this were just so easy? How would it feel? How would it look? And finally, last of all, what would I do? Joe doesn't need to do this alone. There are plenty of other people, computers, tools that can do this for her. This is not a reason to stop for even five minutes, much less years more of working. I think it's really interesting the language that parents use on my podcast. They'll use words like, I want to give them everything I didn't have. It's deep-rooted messaging that often I find makes people hyper-focus on small things. But I don't find them paying as much attention to the big picture stuff. For example, protecting your kid's future if something were to happen to you. And our friends at Fabric by Gerber Life can help. Fabric by Gerber Life is term life insurance you can get done today. 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Get a free eight count element sample today at element.com slash rameet.com slash rameet. With any purchase at drink l m n t.com slash rameet. That's drink l m n t.com slash rameet. Try it totally risk-free. If you don't like it, they'll give you your money back. No questions asked. Meg, what money messages from your childhood do you think you bring to this relationship around money? I think I bring a middle class attitude. I had everything I wanted. And usually, my parents would buy it for me. I don't really want a lot of expensive things. I wasn't trained to want them. You mentioned a middle class sentiment. What does that mean to you? Middle class? Very stable, privileged. I have the feeling I've been wrong many times in my life about the ability to afford things. I really have the feeling that the money is going to be there. Okay. Yeah. Are you middle class today? I don't believe so. No. What are you? Mildly wealthy. Okay. Jo, what are you? Rich most places. Upper middle class where we live. Got it. Upper middle class. Okay. All right. Meg, you mentioned something else that caught my eye. You mentioned being raised a Quaker. I don't know much about that. I don't know much about Quakers. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah. It's a Protestant sect. The branch that I go to, people sit in a circle. There's not a lot of distractions. And we sit in silence for an hour. And if people feel called by God to say something, then they minister. There's no one person ministering to us. And there's a lot of testimonies, simplicity, nonviolence, Does it resonate with your lifestyle today? That's part of the discomfort I had when I moved in with Jo. It wasn't as simple a life once I moved in. I had a Quaker friend come in and the first thing he saw was this huge television on this huge stand. And he just started laughing. He was, that is a big television. I was just like, oh no. It has caused some, you know, uncomfortability sometimes. I can see that. Jo had a BMW. She used to room up to meeting and pick me up. And everybody else was driving their Priuses. Have you two talked about what your rich life is? We have. We have. Good. What's the gist of it with two or three specifics? Comfortable travel. It's being in a position of having fewer worries. Like in terms of valuing stability, the more our net worth grows, the more it's like there's less that can take us out. If that makes sense. Feel safer? Feel safer. Yeah. And being able to do fun stuff and not have to worry about it. What's an example? Like I like to learn things. So I want to be able to take any class I want. Can you do that today? Yeah. It's mostly more time is the issue. Yeah. Okay. What do you say? Anything else that Jo missed? I don't think so. Good. Okay. So I'm going to ask you a question. Can I get really specific with your rich life vision? If we X number of years, let's say late sixties, what does a Wednesday look like in your rich life? Go ahead, Meg. I would be wandering around a botanical garden, looking at birds, might have lunch with a friend. Where? Anywhere. Okay. Be able to have nice dinners out with Joe once a week or a couple of times a month. Okay. I'm going to ask a few probing questions. If any of these connect with you, speak to them. And if not, you can just ignore them. What are you wearing? Who are you seeing? What are you driving? What is in your house? I think we'd be down to one car. Were you helping? I would like to get involved in some volunteer work. Mm-hmm. I've seen some mentorship programs that help middle school kids write. Cool. Better. Okay. Yeah. It's a very beautiful vision. I love it. It actually is all congruent with what you've told me about yourself. It's very congruent. Thank you. Joe, same question. Wednesday, in your late sixties, what does your rich life look like? I have this idea that in retirement, I'd like to spend month-long chunks in big cities in Europe. But if I'm home, maybe the gym and then some, some woodworking and then see some friends, maybe like go for tea or go for a walk. And really, I like being at home. So picture being in our house. The one you have now? The one we have now. I'd like to renovate it. It's half renovated. I'd like to renovate the other half. I picture having enough time for the things that I want to do. Great. Yeah. And just a quick question. If you were traveling on this given Wednesday, where would you be staying? An Airbnb. And then the idea is to go do one thing. One thing a day. Love it. That's great. We are now, my wife and I are at one big thing every two days. It's like really slow, but we give ourselves a long time. And if we stumble across something, we'll do it. But some days we're just like, let's just wander or chill. And it feels really abundant. So, okay, cool. That Airbnb that you might stay at, in today's dollars, how much would you pay for an Airbnb when you travel? Just so I know. When I think of it now, and I kind of look on Airbnb, maybe $5,000. $5,000 for the month? For the month? Yeah. Great. Okay. What do you notice about your answers? They don't require a huge amount of money. Agreed. What else? Low key. Yeah. When you say that, what do you mean? Not a lot of moving parts. There's tea. There's lunch with a friend. It's like, like you said, low key, quite easy to make work. Feels great. I also noticed that it feels very congruent with what both of you have told me. Joe, you mentioned you like to travel. Travel is in there. You also mentioned you like to stay home. A lot of the rich life is at home. I feel that they are quite amenable and they're agreeable with each other. All great. I actually think that in general, the two of you are quite agreeable, which is really nice to speak to. But I'm going to give you a challenge. I would like for you to find an area of your rich life that you would like to stay at home. And I'm going to give you a challenge. That you disagree on. Specifically, you disagree on. Well, probably remodeling the house. I have been talking a lot about moving into a rental and, and leaving home ownership behind. Joe has been talking about renovating the house and I'm not sure it's worth it to put all that money into the house. I feel we could live in a smaller place. And not have to think about all the upkeep. That's the disagreement. That is one. Yeah. Okay. And have you resolved it? No. Okay. It's funny. If I'm going to be honest, this is where our dynamic comes into play because as the person who's historically made the decisions, we're not moving out. Wow. Yeah. That's pretty straightforward. Now that I've said that. How do I get more straightforward couples like the two of you? It was her house. Yes. So I, now I moved in. So are you comfortable knowing that she's made the call? You two are going to renovate. I don't think she knows I made the call. No, I had never heard that before. And what's your reaction to it? I just think it's funny. I think, you know, I think we will discuss it. Joe has said she was open to renting. So I don't know what that means. Just having, I've heard that, but I wouldn't force us to move if it meant that much to Joe, but I don't really like all the responsibility that comes with homeowning. Is there a way for you to absolve yourself of the responsibility and somebody else manages it? Cause like, I don't like it either. But you rent. I rent, but let's pretend that I, I buy, I will one day, I'm sure. It's not like I'm going to be sitting around with a wrench. You know what I mean? Oh, we hire people to do stuff, but you still have to find, find the guy. Who has to find that person? You? A lot of times it's me. Does it have to be? I think Joe feels that she holds the finances. So I should hold the household stuff. Not that she makes the money. So then I have to be the drudge. Okay. Has a hard time when she is holding a lot of things in her head and she feels that she needs to hold all the stuff in her head. And I think this is part of what she was asking me about with the finances was I need somebody else to be thinking about this stuff. And I think that that's kind of what I'm talking about with the division of the household. I take mostly take care of the cars and the cash. And the house, but Joe does some of the house stuff too. Joe, would you agree with that? Is that accurate? Yes. I think if I were to categorize like what I think one of the biggest issues in our relationship is, is that I feel I do more of the emotional labor and I feel like I really hold a lot and it's, it's hard. And then I feel a little resentful when I feel like Meg just kind of skates through. And as it relates to money, how does that play out? Yeah. As it relates to money kind of ties into the, you know, I, I agree with the feeling of entitlement. Does she feels entitled to retire? Right. Does she feel entitled to anything else around money? We used to have these arguments before, like, you know, or she would say something, I want to go on vacation. I want to do this thing. And I would feel like I had to decide whether or not we could do that. And then I would say, can we afford it? And then she would say, of course we can. And I'd be like, well, what do you base that on? And she'd say, I don't know, vibes. Um, so that made me feel like I really did the emotional work around the money. That's quite interesting. It's actually very illuminating. Let me repeat it back in, in, from a different perspective. It's almost like we're watching a movie right now and I'm just going to rotate the camera around just slightly. Tell me how this strikes you. I'm Meg. I grew up, you know, not learning anything about money. I don't need much. In fact, the way I was raised, I shouldn't really be particularly flamboyant. So I grew up, you know, being very reliant with money, meet my partner. She makes three times what I make and lives like a different level of lifestyle with a big TV, et cetera. And I'm kind of vaguely uncomfortable with this, but I love her. And so we move in and we get together and I kind of like ordering from Amazon. Now, I kind of like being able to go out to restaurants. I don't need all this fancy stuff. Gosh, it feels good to be able to do it, especially because we do it together. And gosh, it's, I'm getting older now and I've been working a long time. We're doing social work and I'm ready to retire. And I also, we have a lot of money. I mean, surely we do look at our house and, and look at the car. And once in a while we take these vacations. And so like, I want to go on vacation. Can we afford it? Yeah. How do you know? Just look around. I mean, there's money. It's here. I don't know how much I'm not connected to the money at all. I don't know about our portfolio, but surely there's money. We can always afford it. And now it's, it's time for me to retire. And, and I think I am entitled to it. I've worked a long time. We have a lot of money. And so why are we even talking about this? How does that strike you, Meg? I think most of it was accurate. How did it feel hearing it? A little uncomfortable. I do believe from conversations we've had with financial advisors that we have money to retire with. I don't think we don't need to talk about it. Agreed? Yeah. Okay. I agree a hundred percent. That's why I applied to this show. Yeah. I appreciate it. I'm so glad you both did. I'm having a great time learning more about you. Hearing that the part about, I don't need a lot. The way I grew up is actually not encouraged to have a lot. And now that I walked into this and, and, and I kind of do like spending money once in a while. Yeah. Did that strike you correctly? Absolutely. Okay. I like it. There's nothing wrong with that. I actually love hearing you say that. Yeah. I wish more women were unapologetic about that. I like money. I like spending it. I like it all. That's actually awesome. We in general are too timid around money. We shrink ourselves in particular women. It's like, well, yeah, I like my sweater, but I got it on sale, TJ Maxx. And I'm like, I didn't ask you how much it costs. I just liked that you look great in it. And so I love hearing you say, I like money. Yeah, that's really cool. Okay. Uh, Joe, how did it hear hearing that camera rotated around as I went through that exercise? It felt like, yes. Really? Why? I mean, I think, I think it's pretty accurate. It's less so now, but there was this kind of tension between, I don't need to pay attention to the money because I don't need nice things. And I could live a simple life. So if you want to live like a fancier life, well, like you couldn't figure it out, you know? And then meanwhile, I'd be like, okay, like, you're not buying Chanel bags, but you want to stay at post ranch in. So, I mean, it's very nice hotel, which we, we are still debating. Yeah. I'm like anything over St. Regis is a waste. It's very interesting that your response was like, yes, I don't get the sense that the two of you are doing any sort of jabbing. I sometimes see that when I speak to couples, to me, I can see that where it's like, you kind of benefited from not really paying attention to the money, and also experiencing this nice life. I think that's fair to say. And I also think I would have done the same thing if I walked in and I had grown up same way you and, and my wife had more money and she had different tastes. And I would just totally, it is natural to be like, wow, it is sure nice to be able to go to the grocery store and get whatever I want. What I love is that you have recognized this in recent times. Meg, you've started learning about money. You're having conversations. That to me is very promising. I don't think you can erase what, like the way that you grew up and how you related to money for 15 years. You didn't pay attention. Okay. You didn't have to. Joe was taking control. Obviously that wears on her. She said that. Am I reading it correctly that you both recognize that and now you agree you both need more of a financial partnership? Is that accurate or no? Yeah. I think so. I think so. And the teasing is, is affectionate. I'm not, I don't have any, there's no, like, I just think it's funny. Yeah. Do you see it that way? I do. Okay. Yeah. The truth is if I didn't have to learn more about our finances, I wouldn't. I mean, truthfully. That's another honest statement. But I want to because it's important to Joe and, you know, I might not be doing it as much as Joe wants. So I have a little attitude. I need to change. I think I need to. Part of that attitude change I will encourage you is that it is great to do it because Joe wants you to and she needs a partner. I agree. But also it's important for you because if Joe gets hit by another BMW and we know BMW drivers are horrible, you are left with a somewhat complex financial situation that a middle-class upbringing is not prepared for you. Yeah. And she's handled a lot of this burden for decades. And so it's actually really important that you become conversant. You don't have to be to the skill level that she is. She works in a different industry and she's been doing this. That's not, no, but that's not the expectation. But in the same way that I once told my wife when we were talking about money early, I said very similar thing. I said, look, you have to get better at this. We're talking about money scarcity and money abundance. And we've talked about this. We've been through it. And with love, with affection, like this is a problem. It's causing us problems and you have to get good at this. And she took that. Like that doesn't feel good to hear. She took it. She learned. She attended some money psychology class. I still haven't asked her because I'm afraid I'm going to get too mad if I find out what, who else was she learning about money psychology from besides her husband? But okay, she did it. And, and it wasn't just because I needed a partner in the same way that you, Joe, it's that I know that one day something might happen and I need her to be equipped. Yeah, that is actually a fight that we had pretty recently. We had signed up for the, the course. Megan agreed that she would kind of be the one who drives it forward and it didn't really happen. And then we were, we were driving back from LA and we were saying, well, should we drop it? Should we? And she's like, well, I have all this stuff going on, so I can't do it right now. And I said, well, I can't do it right now. And she's like, well, I have all this stuff going on. And I said, okay, well, when you, uh, when this stuff is over, will you do it? And she goes, probably not. That's when I tried that. Well, you know, I feel like if nothing else, it'll set you through like how everything, like it'll walk you through how everything is set up and then you'll understand in case something happens to me. And then this is where I think the stubborn optimism comes in and like, just like, well, I'll figure it out. So is the implication, if something happened, I'm stubborn enough that I could figure it out and make things work out? That's, I think how I feel deep down is inside. Yeah. But definitely we've been paying for your coaching class and we have not attended a single session. You all know, it's not like a gym. Like I actually want you there. Don't come. We just went around you. I really want you there. I want to see you on these calls. Okay. But it's my, it was my job and I did not get it. Yeah. Together. This is very, I'm glad you shared this example. This is super revealing. Finding the why of why this is important. You know, Joe's told you like, Hey, I need a partner. Okay. And that, that helped you to a certain point, but going all in to the level, cause we're talking about some pretty serious stuff. We're talking about real money. We're talking about you're within years of retirement. It kind of requires all hands on deck. You need to be kind of hitting your marks and things need to be happening. The days of like, well, we'll figure it out later. Like they're sort of here. Yeah. Especially because Meg, I know you're the one who wants to retire. So I'm seeing the point. And I think Joe's request for you to step up as a partner is totally fair. And I think you demonstrating that and reminding her, like, here's what you said. Here's what I've done. And in fact, I'm even doing one, two, and three next would go a huge way. Isn't it interesting looking at the gender dynamics in this same-sex couple? It's one of the reasons that I love my same-sex guests that come on the show because they really challenge our beliefs about what gender is and how we relate to each other with money. Very often you will find that something that exists in heterosexual relationships is actually almost identical in same-sex relationships. And then you go, wait a second. So this isn't about a man. This is about maybe the person who earns more. Wow. I never thought about that. Here we have Joe earning more, has been earning more for decades. And what does she do? She naturally takes over managing the money. Haven't we heard? This story before. Then we have the other partner, Meg, who's earning less. She goes, ah, it's fine. Joe's got it. She's better at this anyway. Haven't we heard this story a million times? One of my greatest joys on this podcast is to show you the gender dynamics that exist in America. Also the assumptions that we make, oh, this has to be something that a woman does or a man does. And then finally to allow you to choose between the two. And I think that's one of the greatest joys on this podcast is to allow you to choose what role you want to play in your rich life. It doesn't have to be that way just because your mom did it or your dad did it. You can choose. We get that gift. Take advantage of it. If you want beautiful flowers on your desk, get the flowers. If you want to be the one who manages the investment portfolio, great. Just make sure that your partner is involved and knows what's going on. It does not have to be something that just because your dad did it, you did it. Just because your mom did it, you did it. You can choose. It's yours. Nobody else's. When I was starting my business, if someone had told me about infrastructure and systems, I would have just ignored them, honestly. 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If I'd had this system back when I was building IWT, it would have changed everything for me. For the first time ever, you can try NetSuite Next for free. If your revenues are at least in the seven figures, go to netsuite.ai slash Ramit. Built for every industry, ready for every boardroom, netsuite.ai slash Ramit. If you had to describe your mindset with your money today in a word or two, how would you describe it? Happy? I just swing wildly back and forth between terrified and elated. That's interesting. So we have happy and elated, which is a nice combo. And then also terrified. I would have said Meg is the optimist and Joe is the worrier. Would that be accurate? Totally. Yes. That's interesting. Okay. If those are the roles today, will those roles work for you in retirement? I don't think so. How come? Well, Joe's already said it doesn't really work for her to be the only one who worries about it. Yeah. Yeah. So no. But it would be great for you though, right? Oh, sure. You're just like, that's fine. It'll be fine. Okay. So that won't work. What roles would work for the two of you in retirement? I don't want Meg to worry, but meeting more in the middle, I need to be both less elated and less terrified. So like you want to bring it in to the middle? I want to bring it in the middle where I- You've been at the same place for a long time at work. Are you worried? No, I don't think so. I don't think you're worried about work. No worry. I have no thoughts about my job when I'm not there. Are you good at your job? Yes. Very. Look at how fast you said that. That's amazing. So you're not worried about your job. Are you concerned? Is that the primary descriptor of you at work? Concerned? No. At work, I'm good at it and I'm bored. Whoa. Yeah. Leave the bored part out of it for just my example. You're good at it. Yes. Can you do the same with money? Objectively speaking, I'm pretty good at it. So then why worry? So, you know, I do compliance work. So I'm kind of- That explains everything. Yeah. Right? Where can it go wrong? And it's for Bank of America. If I had known that, I wouldn't have accepted you on the podcast. No, I disclosed that in the interview and I was told it was okay because it wasn't Wells Fargo. All right. Okay. So go ahead. I wanted to say something because I think, uh, we left out something about when we got together, we were together and apart for about four years and then the crash happened and I was living in my own apartment and Joe had her house and she had just had a breakup. She had the full mortgage of the house and we decided that we were going to move in together. I had some problems with my apartment and we just decided I could put my rent towards- Joe's mortgage too and help her out. And then we would be living together, which we wanted to do anyway. But the crash was pretty traumatic for Joe. And I think some of this anxiety that we have here comes from that time. Joe was really riding high when I met her in 2005 and it was just a show. It was, it was really bad. So I just, I wanted to let you know about that because I think that informs a lot of the fear. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. So the crash happened. Finances were really tight. How else do you think it showed up for Joe? I believe she lost a bunch of her savings in the crash and B of A was a villain. I'm not exactly sure about this. So checking in with you about this, but she finally had her single family home and she'd had it for a few years. And then she was really struggling to pay the mortgage. And I think there was some feeling of failure around that. Yeah. Yeah. Joe? I mean, it was traumatic just because it was a horrible time in the, in the industry and, you know, it was just so much bad news. And then I had bought the house, kind of at the top and I took $100,000 pay cut. I mean, it was, it was a good chunk of my income was gone. And then there were a ton of layoffs. I mean, I wasn't laid off, but I could have been at any moment. And then we merged, we were forced to buy Merrill Lynch. So then we were merged and that was terribly uncomfortable. It was just, it was not a good time. Right. And just like being a public menace. Yeah. Does that stay with you today? What happened, that feeling and oh nine? Perhaps it's like a little bit of a trauma response to like, to the point of like losing my house and as somebody where stability and security is important for me. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It's very helpful. Thank you. These things really affect the way that we handle our money. And so often I speak to guests and they come on here and they're acting irrationally with money. And I'm putting big quotes around irrational because all of us are irrational with money. It's totally human. And you just look at him, you go, what are you doing? Like, this is so obvious. But one of the reasons that I love this, being able to spend hours with you is that I get to understand your story all the way back to childhood. And those things echo for decades, decades, something that mom said, which actually was just from grandma. And then we're behaving this way. And something that happened as recently as 20 years ago is actually like in many ways, so visceral and vivid to us that we still operate as if it was yesterday. So very helpful. I would now like to take a look at the numbers. What was it like putting the CSP together for the both of you? I think it was a little exciting. It was fun. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Good. It taught me a lot about our finances. Good. Yeah. That's great. That's the entire purpose. I love it. Not too complicated. Gives you the core insights of what you need and allows you to make some good decisions about what you're rich. Cool. Let's take a look. Joe, can you read the word in bold and the number next to it for this entire net worth box, please? Assets, 2,173,000. Investments, 4,397,368. Savings, 133,300. Debt, 510,400. Total net worth, 6,193,268. Great. What do you think about these numbers? I won capitalism. Wow. I mean, the not scared part of me thinks like I did as well as really could have been expected for me. Is this the first guest on this show who's ever acknowledged that they are wealthy? This is, wow. Although you did qualify by saying in our area, we are upper middle class. Yes. Yes. Which is not true. You're wealthy, but well done. You did win at capitalism. I agree. Actually, both of you won at capitalism. I think they're very good. Great. How do you feel looking at them? A little flabbergasted. Why? I never in my life before I met Joe thought I would be in the seven figures. Multiple seven figures. Yeah. Yeah. So what does it mean to you that you are? Maybe it means I could retire. Perhaps. It means Joe did a lot for us because this is mostly Joe. That's powerful. Mostly Joe. Okay. That could be true. And you, do you see your role in these numbers as well? Not a lot. I'm in the 401k stuff. I put a couple of hundred thousand dollars away. I speak to a lot of couples that often the man is earning and his wife, she might be earning or she might stay at home, stay home permanently or with children. When they're young and many of them have done really well too. And when I asked them about their finances it's much more common that she sees herself in these and she goes, Hey, I was at home taking care of the kids or I was maintaining our lifestyle, planning the calendar, et cetera. She may not have been earning as much as he was, but she sees herself. Does that connect with you at all? I think that I have been a very good emotional partner. And I think that I have supported Joe through all the stuff, not always in the way that she asked for, but I am part of the household. You're also investing $20,000 a year. Yeah. That's quite a bit. Yeah. Okay. Good. I love that you have acknowledged Joe had a lot to do with these numbers. I think that's true. I think Joe, you would acknowledge that as well. I think that's true. Yeah. I just love the confidence. Like when I asked you, like, are you good at your job? You're like, yeah, I'm really good. Yes. And I know that you're really good with money. And, but what I also want to emphasize is it's not just Joe, it's the two of you. Partnership does not mean that each has to earn the same amount. In fact, one partner can earn zero and still be an important part of the rich life. Cool. Joe, how do you feel looking at these numbers? I feel good about it. No, my wife doesn't allow me to use the word good. Cause I also like, I'm like, I don't know how to talk about my feelings sometimes. So I use the wheel of emotions. She's like, you need to give me a word besides good. We're talking about $6 million here. I feel, I feel proud. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me more. That's not anything I ever expected. I also, um, I made a lot of financial mistakes in my youth. Wow. I mean, I did some crazy stuff in the stock market and it's really also a testament to you can kind of get together and like you say, like a big salary solves a lot of problems, but also it could have gone badly and it didn't because, and I think also Meg having a stabilizing influence has been really helpful. I love that. I love these little gestures that you give each other. It's noticed. I appreciate it. I also think one of my favorite answers when I ask people how they feel is when they say, I feel proud. I really love that. That's how I feel when I look at our numbers, I feel proud. I feel proud of knowing all these decisions I've made since the age of 14. I feel proud of the risks I took. I feel proud, especially that my wife is extremely conversant with money. Like that took a lot of work and it took partnership. So I feel proud. So I love hearing you say you're proud too. I love that too. Let's go to the income. Meg, can you read your combined gross monthly income please? $34,000. $34,166. Great. You make $409,000 a year as a household. Did you know that? Yes. Joe knew it. Did you know it? I did, but Joe feels that I should cop to that. I've only known it for the past three months. That doesn't count. You did not know it. That's how I feel. Thank you, Joe. Come on. You did three months ago. Everybody cleans their house before the house cleaner comes over. Everybody does their numbers before they talk to me. All right. So you're netting, just so everybody knows, you're netting, you're netting $236,000 a year, which is a phenomenal salary. That's awesome. Your fixed costs are at 71%, a little higher than I would expect, but I believe you have a home equity line of credit. Is that correct? Yes. And when is that paid off? 16 months. And then we dropped to 41%, I think. Amazing. 41% is like way, it's one of the lower numbers, especially with the high of an income. It's fantastic. Great. No questions. I don't have any questions when someone has a 41% fixed cost. You could do it. You could do what you want. Investments are at 5%, although we should note that you are contributing $4,000 a month to your 401 case. Great. So you're just contributing a ton of money. That's awesome. Your savings are at 15%. I want to note that you have money set aside for vacations, $6.50 a month. You have money set aside for family travel. And you have money set aside for large purchases. What would that be? We're saving, for remodel and we'll probably need a new car in the next three years. Amazing. I want everybody to notice how wealthy people do it. They set money aside for what is important to them. And it is obvious. I can see your fingerprints all over this CSP. I can see the kind of life that you like to live. That's what I want to see. I want it to be so obvious and personal that I'm like, this could not be anyone else's but the two of you. Great. And the CSP helped us with that. We, we did not have buckets before for certain things. We just had a lump and this has been very helpful, especially to me because when I look at $400,000, I'm just like, okay, that's a lot of money. But if I see that we have, you know, $5,000 saved up for a vacation, then I know what we can spend for a vacation. It's clarity. Yeah. It's the difference between, between having a junk drawer versus a specialized drawer for your utensils. And in your case, it's bigger than a junk drawer because 400K is a ton of money. So it would be more like a junk pantry and you're just like, what the hell is even in there? But now you're breaking it down and you can tune things. Hey, I want more on a vacation or less on a car. No problem. It's just a matter of flipping the switch. Finally, down to guilt-free spending. What's left is 9% or $1,845 a month. I should emphasize that you've already, you've already been putting money aside in savings for things like vacations, travel, large purchases. So here we have what's left, which I'm going to assume is eating out random classes, things like that. Is that what this is? Yeah. Cause the vacations already covered. Great. Yeah. And would you say that this number is accurate? More or less, more or less. Yeah. Maybe within what, like a thousand. Oh, for sure. Okay. I mean, cause some of the kind of slop goes in like the 15% extra that you add on, which then becomes a big number when the fixed, costs are high. So that's right. Your miscellaneous at 15% is $1,800, which is a lot, but that is just because your overall income is very high. So yeah, a little bit of slop is okay. It's really important for people to hear that after about 150 K people stop tracking stuff and I don't really need them to track the price of apples. And it doesn't matter when you make 150 K plus, but all that I ask is you're hitting your major buckets. If you are hitting your major buckets, you really don't need to track. You're just going to be doing a tiny minutia. And so if you got a little bit of slop, fine with me. Cool. What do you notice about the CSP as I go through it? Anything catch your eye? I mean, we have debt. You do have debt. That is your house, right? The house and the HELOC. Yeah. Yeah. And the HELOC, which is getting paid off soon. Okay. A lot of people, particularly middle-class version of what they've been told, like debt is bad. And in general, I think that's a wise lesson. I don't think the average person should be taking out debt with the exception of a mortgage. Maybe a car loan. Yeah. But it's a good lesson. However, what's the number right below debt? Yeah. 6.1 million. You have a mortgage and you have a home equity line of credit, but I would encourage you not to approach this with the, with like somebody making $55,000 a year, who's in 20K of credit card debt. That's not this. Y'all are well managed here. I have no concerns. I have no critiques over your CSP. In fact, take it off the screen. We don't even need this CSP on screen. There's nothing to talk about. You have millions of dollars. Yeah. And you're saving 40, 50K a year. We got nothing to talk about on that. What we should talk about is the primary question of retirement. What do you think the answer is? Can you retire? Yeah. Okay. She says yes. The optimist. Yes. Okay. And Jo? Meg, 100%. The question is when can I? Okay. And? Is it today? No. A couple of years? Fingers crossed. Five years? Oh, for sure. I mean, if I worked until 65, we'd have more money than we knew what to do with. Oh, I don't want that. I don't. I'm serious. No, I agree. I don't want that either. It's a problem. So there's, so we want to find the balance. We want to find the balance. Okay. The number where you have enough comfortable with a nice room to clear, but not where you have so much, you're like, this, what's the point? Right. We all agree? Some of the discussion that we have around, you know. Retirement is Jo saying, if I retire at 65, then she may have to work longer than she wants to. And do you want that? I don't. Are you okay with it? I don't want her to work longer than she wants to. So yeah, because you're saying, hey, we can, we don't need to spend all this money on all this stuff. Yeah. Retire and let's spend our time together. All right. Meg and Jo are the perfect example of a couple that has not gotten on the same page about money. Instead, they are letting fears stop them from living their rich life. They both want to retire. They've said that they are both ready to live their rich life. They've articulated that. So what is stopping them? What if it's not actually money? And what if you ended up in this very situation yourself, most people, this is unimaginable because their entire life worldview is I don't have enough money. So they just assume that for the rest of their life, I'm not going to have enough money. So I'm always going to have to change. I'm always going to have to check the prices at the grocery store and worry about, can we retire? And are we going to have enough? Many of you have not accepted that at some point you are going to have more than enough. You haven't accepted it because you don't understand your numbers. You haven't run projections. You don't use the CSP and you go by feelings and vibes. And that is what I am desperately trying to change on this podcast. But once you do and you embrace it and you understand that you've put your money aside, it's growing. It just needs time to cook one day that you can predict down to the month. You will have more than you know what to do with. And my question for you is, are you going to change the way you feel about money then? Because allow me to be the bearer of very bad news. You're not. You're not going to change the way you feel about money unless you start working on it right now. That is what we are seeing with Meg and Joe. They are allowing this huge, likely very irrational fear to stop them from living a life that they both want to live. Let me see if I can help them get out of this. Okay. Now. Let's talk about these financial advisors. Are y'all financial advisors shopping? You know how people doctor shop? They expect a diagnosis and then they go to the doctor. Doctor's like, ah, you're fine. Like take an Advil and go to sleep. And then they go to the next doctor and they go to the next doctor. Like if you've seen three financial advisors, but then you came to me, Joe, what are you hoping for here? The financial advisors, I liked our first one a lot, but she moved out of state. And so we kind of did a, an advisor for. Kind of different stages. So the first one was like, we don't know anything. Then we lived with her plan for a while. And then as I got more serious about thinking, I really don't want to work till 65, then we spoke to somebody else. And now the third one is actually an e-money subscription. So I don't really count them as an advisor, but it's so that I have access to the software. Why don't you just get a real advisor? Yes, that is actually next because I need help. I don't know. It's hard to find one and. It's okay. Well, I'm just glad, I'm glad it's not advisor shopping. so that's good. Great. We spoke to our partners at Facet and as you know, they have a lot of CFPs and fiduciaries. They're all fiduciaries and we had them run some scenarios. Exciting. Yes. I love a good scenario because then you can choose. Okay. And so no, there's no one's going to tell you what to do. It's your money, your rich life. But I like to have different scenarios just so I can understand some trade-offs. And when it comes to money, I find that very few of us think in terms of scenarios. We're like, I want a car or I want to renovate or whatever, but like, what does it mean for me five years, 20 years down the line? So if you don't mind, I'm going to give you three scenarios and you can tell me your initial reaction after each one. And then we'll get to the end and we can talk about it. Exciting. So we gave our partners at Facet your CSP, your investment portfolio breakdown, your social security statements, as well as some loose parameters on what we understood about your retirement goals. And I'm going to show you three versions of your future. Every single one of these scenarios is financially viable. Great. The question is which one the two of you actually want. The assumptions for each of these scenarios, end of plan age is 95 years old. Okay. It's quite late in life because of what we know about parental history. And that's end of plan age is 95 for Joe. Okay. Meg's pension begins as soon as she steps away from work. That's right. Both file for social security age 70. Spending is based on your current CSP growing at 3% per year. Okay. That's inflation. And when the mortgage is paid off, that cost disappears. Those are our assumptions. I think they're all pretty reasonable. Scenario one, you each retire at age 65. That means Meg retires in roughly two years. Joe retires in about eight years. Spending stays as listed on the CSP today, 16.8K per month. Net worth at Joe's age of 95, $14.1 million. Whoa. What's that reaction, Meg? I don't know how that could be possible. Does that seem higher or lower than you thought? Oh, higher. Way, way higher. I mean, we have 6 million now, so I'm, I'm just assuming that it would go down. But it's actually going up. Right. And that's with Joe living to 95. Joe, what's your reaction to that? That's dumb. I don't want to die with $14 million. Yeah. We don't, we don't have anybody to give it to. Okay. Wow. Already, this is quite interesting. Let's keep going. So in this case, Joe, you're working for eight more years to potentially die with $14 million. And your reaction to that was? That's dumb. That's dumb. Yes. Okay. Where would the money go? Nieces and nephews and charity. They can have some, but not, no, they don't need $14 million. Yeah. This is very savvy. Like, I like them. I like these charities. I love my nieces and nephews, but like, they don't need $14 million. That's, that's a huge amount of money. This is good. My observation on this plan, this is just my personal opinion, is that this is the most financially responsible plan. It builds up way more than you ever possibly could use or need. And primarily that comes from Joe continuing to work for eight more years. So that's how it happens. I think it's also probably the one most likely to produce more money. Yeah. I think it's also probably the one most likely to more resentment. Because if I'm going to work and I'm like, what's this fucking money for? Totally. It's just like, why? So that's scenario one. A good, a very good option. Great. Scenario two, Meg retires at 65. Joe retires at 60. That's roughly two years from now that you both retire. And we are going to add $60,000 a year in discretionary spending starting next year. At the age of 95 for Joe, you will have $5.6 million. What do you think? That actually feels pretty good because we do have, I mean, your mom was 98 when she died. Yeah. And my parents, my family lives a long time and my mother has dementia. So that gives like an insurance policy for needing some nicer end of life care. A lot you can do with $5.6 million, especially in terms of, you know, there's reverse mortgages and all kinds of complex financial instruments available for people in your situation. Some things I want to note is that in your final years of working, Joe, your bonuses would really help cover those one-time expenses, the HELOC, car, large trip home renovations, and then you're out. That's it. Retired life. Quite a good life, I think. That's option two. Let's go to scenario three. Scenario three, both of you step away and retire at the end of this year. Joe's smiling. I haven't even gotten to the numbers yet. Meg looked a little anxious. Meg, what do you say? Meg's like, don't get me too excited. Yeah, that's great. I'm a little anxious, but also there's two things. One is Joe would love to step away right now, which is awesome. And the other thing is the other financial advisors have said to us, you could retire right now and you'd be fine. So I'm just hearing that again, sort of. Is feeling like what? Good. Oh, yeah. Happy. Okay, good. So like a second opinion. Yeah. Okay. Let's keep going. Scenario three, you both step away at the end of this year. Yeah. Starting next year, you add $90,000 a year of discretionary spending. Joe, at the age of 95? Yeah. You will have $3.5 million. Plus, of course, any equity that you have in the home could be leveraged as necessary. Any rental equity, that kind of stuff. Joe, you can still access your 401k using the rule of 55. And you would need more portfolio withdrawals in early years before social security kicks in at age 70. And there is a risk of a market downturn during that time. A lot of times, retirees will use dynamic management. Like, they'll be like, oh, things are bad. We're just going to cut our spending for those years. There's lots of ways around it. But just to let you know, that's a real risk. And of course, you could file for social security earlier. You could pick up a part-time job. You could, as I said, reduce your discretionary spending. Lots of levers you could pull. I want to make an observation that in this scenario, scenario three, your assets are depleting over time. So you end up with less. But at the age of 95, to end up with $3.5 million. Right. It's a lot. It's a ton of money. And of course, you have a lot of control over that. If you feel it's getting too close, which, you know, what's too close to 3.5, you could always decrease your spending a little bit. Let me jump in here because I know we're throwing around a lot of complicated terms like the rule of 55 and dynamic management. And when it comes to people approaching retirement, a lot of them have one or two big, looming questions. Do I have enough? What if the market takes a downturn? And you should definitely account for all of those questions when you are planning your own retirement. Now, you can do this yourself by having several different levers to pull to prepare for when times get tough. And they will at some point during your retirement. Or you can enlist the help of an advisor to help you do this, such as our partners at Facet. And they can help set you up for success. Now, when you make this plan, you can start to mitigate the amount of time that you need. You can start to mitigate risk. You can make sure that you are allocating your assets correctly so that even if there's a market downturn, you're okay. Now, before Meg and Joe decide on which scenario is right for them, let me refresh your memory on what each scenario means. Scenario one, Meg and Joe each retire at 65 years old. Their day-to-day spending stays the same as it is today, about $16,800 a month. And when Joe is 95, their net worth is $14.1 million. And when Meg and Joe retire at 65, their net worth is $14.1 million. Scenario two, Meg and Joe retire in two years and spend an additional $60,000 per year. That translates to about $21,800 total per month, a big jump from scenario one. And their net worth at Joe's age 95 is still $5.6 million, more than enough. Scenario three, Meg and Joe retire at the end of this year, 2026, and increase their spending to an additional $90,000 a year, which is roughly $24,300 per month total. Joe's net worth at age 95, $3.5 million. Still plenty of money. Notice that with each scenario, we've dramatically increased their discretionary spending, and we've reduced the time until they each retire. This is by design, because I want them to really understand the point. The only thing preventing them from retiring, it's not the numbers. It's how they feel. Now, let's see what they want to do. What do you feel about these three scenarios. I always assumed our money was going to decrease and possibly we would just use it all up by the end like my parents did they didn't have that much money but i don't understand how we can increase our discretionary spending and still end up with five million in the second scenario or three million in the third joe what's the answer the assets will just continue to grow faster than we're drawing them down like it's kind of like a snowball as the numbers get bigger it's just harder and harder to spend them make does that connect with you or you still feel confused i understand that then my confusion is why is joe worried about our retirement that's a very good question that's a very good question joe it's a very good question i just wanted to actually clarify something that i don't have any doubts about you being able to retire at all i think when we would have these conversations before and i would kind of drag my feet and i would ask the question can we afford for you to retire i think i actually even said in a way to get you involved like pitch it to me like not so that i like am saying yes or no but like take a look at what would you get like net from your pension and when you average out all the other stuff that you wouldn't be paying like what kind of impact would it have like on our finances and so that's what i was really hoping you would do because i wanted you to like engage with it but i think you read that as me saying like well maybe we can't and what i'm saying is like god i wish you were a partner in this and not just like asking me if it's okay right because that's kind of what i would love to get past like in this next financial like i don't want to be the one who says like it's okay or it's not okay like as the the final answer right um we're kind of maybe having two different conversations about that what do you think meg i hear that yeah yeah it's interesting to me because um i find the two of you to be um surprisingly direct most of the time but that was really indirect that was super i would not have picked up on that at all and i think realistically to expect meg who kind of grew up not really connected with the knowledge of money and then for the last 15 plus years is kind of like you've handled it in this dynamic that the two of you have like to expect somebody to like come up with scenarios including pension withdrawals and drawdowns it's like not realistic i do think saying hey i need you to be a partner that is fair and actually when you said that it worked so that part i respect i actually think you two are at your best when you are direct it is so cool to see i think you are not at your best when you are indirect i think that's true fair yeah yeah okay cool so we've got three scenarios without choosing one how does it just feel to hear these scenarios meg yeah that's really cool like all of them work they're all conservative yeah and you end up with millions of dollars yeah like you won how about for you joe how does it feel to hear these scenarios it feels really good because it kind of balances my desire to retire and still have a nice life and still feel safe so it's good that's great yeah do do you want to choose one it doesn't have to be in stone but i just kind of want to know like what are you going to choose i may not actually be ready to retire at the end of this year i have some things i need to do in my job to get ready so you're suggesting what the one where i retire at 65 okay yeah okay that'd be roughly two years from now a year and a half yeah yeah okay wow joe i think also scenario two just because of what i'm learning there kind of needs to be a ramp up to planning for this and i we have not started planning i totally respect that it's a big life change yeah it's everything from finances to like what are we going to do all day right what's our lifestyle going to be if we're going to do a renovation do we do it now or later there's like a lot of questions to ask but just like mentally yeah and emotionally yeah are we ready to embrace this new chapter actually next week we're starting couples counseling because it because it's such a large transition good be our pre our retirement you're doing this before you retire oh yeah you didn't even know when you were going to retire but you're like hey we got to start talking about this it's no surprise that you are so successful financially people who are very successful plan for things before they need it that is awesome that's awesome i love you hearing this yeah i feel grateful to be involved in this conversation but truthfully i feel that you would have found a way anyway i'm just a little grateful that i could maybe nudge you in the right direction you know that always feels good for me i feel grateful yeah thank you i feel very peaceful about it yeah yeah i'm still feeling a little adversarial coming in maybe a little worried that one of us is going to get yelled at for whatever reason especially you those scenarios are they fleshed out i mean is it something that we can look at and of course we can send you more specific details and of course i would encourage you if you engage with facet they can pick it right back up there or if you run your own scenarios which i think you two should then you will be able to fine-tune some of the details i think one of the benefits as you get closer to retirement is that you're going to be able to find some of the details that you it becomes less hand wavy like hey we're putting aside you know like 18 invested that's great in your in your 20s 30s 40s like you're going to crush it but as you get closer you want to really start fine-tuning these scenarios with like what year are we going to withdraw from social security should we take 401ks first or our roth withdrawals first like it becomes somewhat complex and when you have millions of dollars we're talking about like big money here that's why for a very specific group of people i say like hey if you want to work with a financial advisor great just don't pay aum it makes no sense but like getting this stuff right and fine-tuned makes a lot of sense yeah yeah by the way um joe you mentioned that uh meg is still going to get her pension forever but you will have to figure out these drawdowns and there was some question about the emotional labor of that yeah one suggestion i want to make to you is that you're going to have to figure out these drawdowns and there's some question about the emotional labor of that yeah one suggestion i want to make to you is that uh our partners at facet they also do basically a simulated paycheck so they take a look at where all your money is and then find out how much you need and then they will basically pay you a paycheck from your money every month so you don't have to deal with this stuff oh i like that basically when you have millions of dollars as they say if you have a problem that money can solve you don't really have a problem right i would not let you walk out of this room thinking you have 30 years of emotional labor of financial labor and you're going to have to figure out how much you need to pay figuring out where the money's coming don't do that somebody else can do it for you it can happen very easily and you all should just be spending it and enjoying it that would be my dream that would be lovely for you i mean and for me but and i mean yes that would be great as you go back home and you start to plan a little bit more carefully you have scenario two is kind of like a base case maybe you test it and you go hey instead of 18 months let's make it 16 months or 20 months do you have any concerns about getting derailed from your plan i've been known to drop the ball i think maybe calendaring in not only our money meetings but other money tasks good might be might be helpful to me definitely yes what else what i want you to do here is embrace your role as somebody who has over six million dollars how would that person behave that person would need to know a lot more about their investments great so what would they do at our money meetings maybe find out more from joe so you'd ask your partner okay good my partner what else and then take a look at all the accounts and then what would i do can i give you a metaphor i would love okay so when you grew up if you wanted to have some people over for dinner or lunch or something what would you serve them probably sandwiches or salad yeah great what if you as a partner who has six million dollars if you want to have a couple of friends over what might your options be oh anything i wanted yeah you could make sandwiches make or get it catered or have a chef come in and do it all of the above yeah great love it okay yeah now apply the same thing to your mind? I'm drawing a blank. Okay. I don't know what to do. That's okay. So right now what you have done is you've done it all yourself. As if you have to solve everything yourself. As if you have to make the sandwiches. Yeah. No, you don't. Okay. Joe can help, but I actually think that Joe has done a lot and I think it's time for you to use some of your resources and become really good at this. So what could you do? You could hire a coach. You could attend our money coaching program. Do a Q&A. You could. read the book. You could get an accountability buddy and read the book together. You could run it through AI and then you could speak to the advisors at Facet or whatever advisor you chose. And before you come to the money meeting, you could say, Joe, here are the scenarios I came up with. Tell me what you think. Let's stress test this. All of this shows me two things. Number one, you don't have to do it alone. Yeah. Okay. You can get help, coaches, books, advisors, all the above. And second, it shows something really positive to Joe that you would take the initiative to go do that. Yeah. What do you think? She would love that. Yeah. Yeah. She would really love that. I actually think it's time for you to spend a little money on your education. Yeah. It's time. Do it. That's what the money is for. Okay. And I know Joe's going to love it because she loves classes. I do love classes. So what I'm asking you to do, Meg, I think is step into your wealth. It's all the stuff that you've implicitly learned over the last 15, 20 years, but now it's with your money. How does a wealthy person act? And I'm like, I'm putting on a new shirt. I'm putting on a new set of glasses. I'm looking at the world differently because yes, I was raised that way, but through luck and through fortune and hard work, we are at this place and I accept who we are. Can I add a piece to the homework? I would like to feel like if something happened to me that you could step in because A, the thought of you muddling through while like grieving is just terrible. Since the portfolio is more complicated than, you know, you grew up with, I think like respecting your journey through it and respecting the assets, like is important to like kind of honor the work that went into us creating it. And I think that would make me feel better knowing that you would be not just okay if something happened to me. So being able to step in would be honoring that. That's what you're saying? I think so. Yeah. I think that's respectful of like our legacy in creating it. It's respectful of the asset itself. Obviously you wouldn't do everything the way like my instinct would be to do it, but to know that like, you know, enough to not make like dumb mistakes. How would Meg show you that she. Feels comfortable in case something happened to you. I think we need to do like an SOP and we need to have like a repository of these are the accounts, these are the passwords, this is who you talk to. And then showing that you understand basic terms and basic concepts, I think would be enough to show that. Because I mean, how terrible to muddle through like after such a big life change. Do we need a trust? Yes. Good question. Questions that is respecting money. Yeah. Do we need to trust? What if I, Meg, die first? What if you are in the hospital and you're unconscious, but I have to make all these payments? Where do I pay the bills? Like, cause I can't have you sign something. Yeah. You're unconscious. These are the kinds of questions. Actually, I love that you asked that. Ask 50 more questions like that. Yeah. Remember, you don't have to solve the answers yourself. Even Joe doesn't have to solve the answers yourself. You'll have access to advisors and other people. You'll have access to people who can help you. You're in a very common situation. You have money. You're about to retire. Cool. Let's put the plan together. I totally agree. I love the word respect. Respect money. So often we do not respect it. We just spend it. We make it, we spend it. But when my wife and I were talking about money seriously early on, it was like, we, it's important for us to be good stewards of this money. Respect it. And that can mean spending a whole bunch of money on stuff we love. Great. But I want us to talk about our values. I want us to know that if I go, you are not just going to be worried about money and you know what to do with it. So, so much similarity here. I just, I feel exactly what you are going through. Meg, keep asking those questions. Definitely create an SOP, run through it once a year, put it on the calendar and just then, you know, it's all, it's there one day if we ever need it, we're good. Yeah. Okay. How do you feel about that? How do you feel now compared to how you felt when you walked in? Meg? A lot less nervous. I feel that we have an opportunity to move forward with a shared understanding of our money. And I know that I have work to do to, to make that understanding more shared, but that's really feels great to me that we, that there's a basis for moving forward. That's beautiful. Opportunity. What a great word. Yeah. It's not a drudgery. It's not like an obligation. It's like an opportunity. It's beautiful. Cool. Jo, how do you feel now compared to when you walked in? Oh, much more at ease. Yeah. Just like mellow. Yeah. I like that. Ease. That's how I want people to feel with their money. I want a sense of ease. If I go out and I see a burrito I want to get, I can get it. It's not going to affect me, materially. If I am about to buy a house or a car or something super expensive, I'm going to slow it down, carefully calculate things, check in with my wife and others. And, and then we'll make a decision when we're at ease. That's a good way to think about a theme for money with the two of you. Uh, Jo, what surprised you about today's money conversation? How easy it was to get on the same page, or at least in the same chapter, by looking at it from a different perspective and having a third party do a reframe. And so that actually also really speaks to like when we feel stuck, it's, it's good to step outside and we're fortunate enough to be able to do that. Nice. Meg, what about you? What surprised you? What kind of financial future is possible for us? It's actually way bigger than I think the two of you have ever imagined. Yeah. And I think the two of you have ever imagined. Yeah. And I think the two of you have ever conceived of. For me, for sure. One thing that, that got me excited was when I asked what your rich life is and you told me, and I really loved it. It was quite, as you said, like laid back. But since I've seen your numbers, I'm like, oh, they, they don't realize yet what's possible. And to me, that's like possibility, opportunity. So it's like, yeah, we want to go to the garden, the local garden, and we want to make a $2,500 donation. Yeah. Right. We want to go to this Airbnb and we want to hire an archeologist to take us around and a photographer to follow us around for a half afternoon. Like all the things you already want to do, but just elevate it and more meaningful for the two of you, for the people you love. I feel excited because I have been wanting to do more financial giving and this seems to me that, that is very possible when we retire. I think you will probably be the leader in your relationship around that. I think that's probably true. Probably a great way to get started taking that role on. Chief philanthropist out of the two. That's really cool. I'm going to make a plaque for my dad. I feel very confident in Meg and Joe. The way they talk to each other, the realizations that they both had, the acknowledgements they made towards each other. I'm like, this couple is solid. I think Meg is going to take on some of the financial labor that Joe has been working on for so long. I actually think they're going to connect more about money, especially in a way that Joe is going to reveal more of her fears around money. And my hope, like this would be extra credit A plus, is that they recalibrate their relationship. Right now, Joe has been the gatekeeper, the one who decides if they can go on, vacation. And Meg has been the one asking and also saying, hey, I feel entitled to retire. I want to go on vacation. Of course, there's money. I would love for that relationship to be recalibrated, for them to both be partners, coming to each other with proposals, making a plan, discussing with an advisor if that's what they choose, really approaching this as one of the core parts of their relationship going forward. Honestly, I love speaking to them. It was a total pleasure. I can't wait to hear their follow-ups. Speaking of which, let's take a look at those now. My biggest takeaway was Ramit's invitation for me to step into my wealth that I have with Joe. And I'm thinking of it like owning it. And my next step is to get conversant with all of our finances, all of our investments, and all of our money. And to understand them so I can be a competent co-manager of our finances with Joe. again for this great opportunity. I really enjoyed meeting the whole team. Hi, Ramit and team. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us. It was a lot of fun and gave us a lot to think about. My initial takeaways are that my thoughts don't always match my reality and I need to figure out how to balance having my fears keep me sharp, but have my decisions be governed by a strong plan that can balance safety and reality. Since my job is not my passion, it would be a shame to work much longer than necessary. I think we finally reached the point where we have more money than time. So as for next steps, first Meg will retire next year when she turns 65. And as for me, rather than relying on vibes, I've set a retirement date of my 60th birthday, which is a little over two years from now. So knowing that there's a firm date in the future and that I could walk away from my job today if I really wanted to. It's very liberating and makes it easier to go to work for sure. I'm going to put together a map of what I need to do before I stop working to set us up for success and definitely seek professional input along the way. Then we're going to plan a massive vacation. Thanks for now. It's been about eight weeks since we saw Ramit. What really stuck out for me in our session was that I need to be an equal partner with Joe in managing our finances. I have been listening to IWT coaching sessions and also been going back to fundamentals and listening to very rudimentary finance classes so that I can really get a good basis for the work that we need to do together. Honestly, it's been pretty liberating to be able to understand what Joe's talking about when we are planning our finances and to have some agency in our financial future. I have to give Meg props because last week she explained what a Roth conversion was, which was very exciting in the evolution of our financial relationship. We had a very helpful session with John at Facet, who kind of built on the issues that we discussed on the podcast about the psychology of finance and what was really helpful was a discussion of, for me, what would make me comfortable and how will I know what is enough. That gave me a lot to think about. We've also been working on our communication kind of preemptively before this enormous life change. We've gone back to couples counseling, which is hard in times, but has also been a tremendous amount of fun. We're really leaning into the idea that the biggest part of our rich life is how we're going to manage our finances. And so, we want to really go into this new chapter just with as many tools as we can. Thanks again for everything. Thanks to the whole team. I want to give a huge thank you to this episode's sponsor, Facet. If you are thinking about your own retirement, if you are getting closer to retirement, if you want specific scenarios on what your life might look like, or if you're dealing with a complex portfolio, go to facet.com/facet. What you saw today takes the guesswork out of these huge decisions. When can I retire? How much will I have? What does it all mean? As of the date of this recording, Facet is waiving their enrollment fee for new annual members. And for my audience, Facet is offering $300 into your brokerage account if you invest and maintain $5,000 within your first 90 days. Head to facet.com/rameet to learn more about which membership option is best for you. Offer ends December 31, 2026. I'm not a member of Facet.com/rameet. If you're not a member of Facet, I'm not a member of Facet, but I have an incentive to endorse them as I have an ongoing fee-based contract for cash compensation based on this endorsement. The Facet-developed scenarios are for education purposes only, are not advice, and do not guarantee a similar outcome. They are based on industry standard assumptions and inputs provided by Joe and Meg. As of the date of this recording, Joe and Meg are not members of Facet, nor were they compensated for their appearance. If you want to know the exact month and year that you will have $100,000 in your investment portfolio, sign up for my new program, Road to 100K. I'll help you hit that number fast. Go to iwt.com/100k to sign up.