I've Had Better

It's not the affair that hurts, it's the betrayal, it's that somebody else was more important. What you're about to hear is an unscripted one-time couples counseling session. It contains mature themes and listener discretion is advised. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. Fall is here, and that means the Pumpkin Spice Latte is back at Starbucks. It's the one we've been waiting for. So whether you're a fan of the original Pumpkin Spice Latte or ready to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai, the new iced pumpkin cream matcha, or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso, you can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. Fall is here, and that means the Pumpkin Spice Latte or ready to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso, you can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. him and by him trampling that by having another woman become more important than her it devalued everything she had done it sapped the meaning out of it and from that place she did not know how to come back so she was frozen and her tears were streaming down her face and sometimes she didn't even know she was crying and she was experiencing the flood of emotions and the frozenness of emotions at the same time for me the problem started much further back than when I chose to be intimate with somebody else you know is more about just feeling like I didn't have like a connection anymore we didn't talk anymore and and then eventually it just became easy to you know you get attention from somebody else and it just you sort of grab on to it and and I knew that it was wrong and I tried to justify it in my head a lot of different ways but but I didn't stop it and I think we were both mentally in the same place in this bad place I just acted upon it much earlier and much more significantly I mean I think one of the things was that and this was before she knew anything about me and what was going on and and I kind of woke up in the middle of night saw she wasn't home is very unlike her and initially she told me I was just out with her friends and then we found out that she had gone home with somebody that she randomly met I believe her that she's never done that before and and whatnot but but that instead of it kind of being a wake-up call to me and I wish now that it was just a wake-up call to me to stop what was going on that I was doing I just sort of used it as a way to justify it this is a couple who is at a very vulnerable stage in the cycle of life they have three young children they have work lives and they are gradually becoming more and more disconnected and estranged from each other they both seek comfort attention love responsiveness in other places but they also both use the other person's transgressions to justify their own each of them has a plot of entitlement and a series of justifications about why they could do what they did and why what they did is less severe than what their partner did which is not an uncommon story I thought he was different I met a lot of men that I knew not gonna be faithful I knew, like, maybe they're wealthy, maybe they're handsome. Like, I thought he was going to be the man who was just going to love me. He had the values that he presented to me. I thought he had such high values. So partially why this is heartbreaking for me, because he's not what I thought he was. There's another way of looking at this. Is if a man that has such values ends up doing something that is unthinkable even to him, then there's something important to figure out there. I don't think it's unthinkable to him. I think he's been like this before, during. I just didn't know him well. It's true that, you know, when I've been with other people, I have not, you know, I haven't been, you know, I haven't been faithful. But when I got married, I was like, "This is it." Like, I'm not going to be that way. And I remember even my friends, you know. But everybody say that. Everybody say that when they get married, like, from what I learned. And maybe, but I knew that the people I was with in the past weren't the right people. And at any time, I wasn't faithful to them. It was just because it was kind of over at that point. And so one of the things that kind of scared me mentally, when I was getting to that point, was, I mean, it just felt like we had lost this connection. Did you go to tell her? I didn't, and I should have. I wish I did. Meaning, did you tell her? Did the two of you at any point say, "Something's off here"? I always did, like, about the year before I found out about the affair. I told him, "Listen, you're not home a lot at all. You're not with kids. I understand you work hard, but I am lonely. You're not there for me anymore." And he said, "Well, you can sit me home, but I'm not going to be happy." And I'm thinking, "Okay, I don't want him to be unhappy." I said, "Fine, travel, do whatever you want. But then I'm also going to do what I want." So it's like, when my-- You know, I'm just going to stop you a second. Because you're looking at me and you're talking to me. And he's shaking his head and shaking his head. So you can both tell me all kinds of things, and I can listen to each of you. I'm married to none of you. So it's very easy. Okay? But you need to reach each other. Well, we did. We talked so much about this. I see the two of you talking. And most of the time, you wait for the other one to be done, and then you start to give your version, and you don't hear, and nothing is absorbed. Your thing doesn't integrate any of what he says. His thing doesn't integrate anything of what you say. And usually, you counter each other. That is not communication. I understand. I totally understand him. But there is understand mentally, and there's a way in which you feel that the other person connects to it and cares about it. And at this point, neither of you really has had the experience that the other person actually gets it, connects to it, cares about it. You may go over the conversation again and again, but you need a bridge. Otherwise, you basically are on a minefield. And the next time, it will be you, and you will feel vindicated, and you will have a competition about who destroyed the relationship first. I don't think I'll be competing over anything. At first, I think that she is so mad that she's mad even at me. But then I realize that this is not opposition or resistance. This is what happens sometimes in the aftermath. This is the aftermath of pain. So what we often do is we farm out one half of the equation. So one person becomes the holder of the positive pole, and the other person becomes the holder of the negative or reverse. But basically, it's called splitting the ambivalence. So at this moment, he holds the flame, and he says, "I believe we can come back from here." And she says, "Yeah, really? Show me. Prove it to me. But at the same time, I won't make it. I won't make it easy for you, because I will not be duped again." And they are in a standstill at this moment, where a part of her wants to be loved again, and a part of her wants to say to him, "I can live without loving you, and I'll go find myself someone else, too." And that's the vindication. It was almost frustrating for me to hear why I married you, because you had good values. Because I appreciate that. That's right. And I feel like we married each other because we loved each other. We love each other. And it still frustrates me that a lot of times that you're just okay. I'm happy that things are better. I mean, from a day-to-day basis, things are better. There's not the tension and things like that, and I think that's probably what just gets better with time, but I'm still unhappy about the fact that I feel like your response has just been. Whatever. Like, you know, it's just a new life now, and I'm not going to care anymore. I'm not going to do this. I'm not going to do that. What we had and still have is worth fighting for, and I'm hoping that at some point that changes in you to say, "Yes, it's worth it to put in the time and the effort and to love each other again, not just cohabitate." Of course I married you because I loved you. You look at other things also when you marry people. You look at the person that you think can last. See that this is a partner that you can survive with for so many years and get old together. That's what I mean by, like, I thought you had values. I mean, we should be able to survive this, right? I mean, this is hopefully the hardest test we'll ever have, but we should survive it. I feel like something died for me after this. I just cannot get over this. I felt like we had difficult life, like difficult but leading to good, right? So I was willing to work for it, and I was happy in that. But after you betrayed me, I was like, "What was all the hard work for?" Yeah, I mean, I understand how you feel because I felt the same way. It's very hard. Because you want to equalize it. Let it exist in its own unique experience. But if you keep saying, "Me too," then her answer is going to be, "But I didn't do this." Yeah. Together, we're going to aim for a different conversation, a different exchange. Okay. How do I do that? I will try to help you. But one of the things you can do that may be useful. Just reflect back. You just repeat to the other person. So what I'm hearing you say is, that forces you to stay on the other side a little bit longer. You don't have to agree with anything. You just have to be open and curious. Okay. I can do that. Yeah? You have both people continuously saying, "You don't understand how lonely I feel." And every time one says, "I feel lonely," the other person says, "I feel more so." And it's breaking that the more the more type of cycle, where they compete rather than empathize. So the first part is for me to see if he can listen to her. It could have been either order. There was no deliberate choice in why I said that. I just wanted to see. Okay. And then I started with him. It just happened to be at that moment, I thought, "Let's start here." So tell me what it is that you're feeling. I feel… It was good. The love. Feeling is lost. That if we just stay friends, sometimes I feel like something is coming back to me. Like I am… I can hug with you. I can go out with you. You know, I can be intimate with you. I don't know why. Because I don't feel this way, I guess. Tell him about the experience of betrayal. It hurt. The experience hurt. Painful. Painful. One of the important things for me would be a guy who loves me. Do you think that the betrayal meant I don't love you? Yeah. There was an emotional affair. You… Guys talk a lot. You travel together. So it's not just sex. I think it was more than that for you. That's why… Do you ask him? Or do you suppose? I think so. He denies that. Right? Do you ever ask? No. I don't deny that completely. You told me. I… So, I don't… Can I answer? Answer? Um… It was nothing. It was nothing. It was nothing. It was nothing. not an emotional affair for me in the sense of Like that I felt so attached to this person that I couldn't let them go. But I think that one of the things that kind of that I was looking for that led to it was companionship. And I think that maybe we're talking about the same thing. But there was a companionship aspect to it that I missed us having. And I was trying to find it somewhere else for sure because I did feel like that was one of the things that I really missed that you and I had that we didn't have anymore. I get it because it's the same for me. You know, people come home to the kids, to the problems. Or you have a companionship that you don't have all these problems. You just have fun and sex. This is your out. Maybe people need that. Totally get it. But how unfair is that? You know? So, but I get it. And I'm thinking, like, I dated a lot of selfish guys. Which I think he's one of them. So, when you picked him, he was. The golden apple in the basket. And now he's been relegated to that category called men. Right, but I also think, I also don't blame him because I feel like all men are like that. Like, I feel like everybody, I start asking around, and everybody has an affair. So, I just don't know what's normal in me. Right, but between what is normal and what is hurtful, I think we are going to stick with the hurtful. Okay. He also is telling you, in a roundabout way, that when he feels lonely, he seeks company. I was home. Well, you were home, but he didn't find you. Now, he didn't look for you either, enough. But when he says, I didn't find you, you tell him, it's normal, that's life. But how was I supposed to do it other way? I don't know yet. Because I also know that. But he didn't bother coming and telling you, or you to him, we need to reconnect. We need a conversation. We need just a walk. We need to hug. We need, in the midst of the three young children, which is always a period. Oh, we did hug, and we had sex during all that time. Yes, but I'm not talking about that. You can have your routine sex. That doesn't mean being connected. Come on, women have done this for centuries. Right. And felt nothing. So, that is not a proof of anything. Right, that's how it was. But I felt like I had to have sex with him because he's my husband and he needs it. And no matter what, you know, I would give you sex. And then after all that, he tells me, I didn't even want to have sex. Why did you come to me if you just want to have sex with me? You know? So, there are two people here who could use learning a little bit of how you go to the other when you disconnect, when you feel lonely. When you have three young kids and when you've got pretty much the most stressful period for any couple. For any couple. So, inside that is going to be a depletion. Depletion of time, of resources, of attention, of playfulness, of creativity. It's all being redirected. It's very hard for some people to be able to just shake it and just say, Hey, hey, meet me in two years. But with a smile that just says, I know what's happening to us. So that the complicity is maintained. That's how I thought it was going to be. But it wasn't. And it wasn't on your part and it wasn't on his part. In that sense, you are both actually quite similar. When I don't feel loved by you, I wander. And when I don't feel loved by you, I cut off. Yeah, it's true. It's true. So, these are two mechanisms. But isn't it for everybody like that? No, there's a few other options. You know, so the challenge for you is, how do I come back? You can normalize anything you want. You can say, oh man, man this, man that. But you're going to stay in your back and forth between feeling deeply wounded and trying to be indifferent in order to not feel deeply. Wounded. Right. Indifferent helps. Yes. Not to hurt. It's a good analgesic. Yeah. And it sucks because it's anything but who you are. Right. So, there's a part of him that wants to try to tell you, I also felt something. Betrayal comes in many forms. He didn't feel betrayed. He felt abandoned. And you are basically saying, grow up. Right. And it's not true. And I don't think it's true. I don't think he got abandoned. You want to hear or you want to be right? I want to hear. Then you're going to have to maybe not be so right. Okay. When I meet her, I meet a woman who is at the same time deeply hurt and deeply trying to protect herself against the hurt. And she vacillates between intense romanticism and cynicism. And she challenges everything I say. But in allowing her to challenge me continuously, we gradually begin to develop a bond. And I know that the bond is emerging when I push back and she laughs. And she laughs and she feels like I'm holding her and I'm right there with her. And now I can begin to help her listen to him differently and not just want him to listen to her all the time. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Quince. Hate to break it to you, but now that it's August, that means summer is almost over. For some of you, that might be a relief. Autumn means cooler weather, which also means it might be time to find some cozy cold weather staples. Enter Quince. Quince specializes in effortless, high-quality essentials like ultra-soft organic cotton and premium Mongolian cashmere sweaters. They're beautifully tailored. Built to last. And transition seamlessly from morning meetings to a nice dinner out. This summer, I've been wearing quite a bit of Quince linen. I love the European linen tank because it's light, comfortable, and goes with just about everything. And when the weather cools down, I'm looking forward to pulling my cashmere sweaters back out. They're the pieces I reach for year after year. Upgrade your everyday. Download the Quince app for app-exclusive offers or go to quince.com. Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK, too. That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash begin. So whether you're a fan of the original Pumpkin Spice Latte or ready to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai, the new iced pumpkin cream chai is ready to go. The new iced pumpkin cream chai is ready to go. Or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso. You can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. If he would come to me before the affair and told me how he felt, I am the person who would be figuring it out from the second he opened his mouth. So ask him, why didn't you? I know we disagree on this, but I feel like I did. I feel like I did many times. We lay down in bed. We're in front of the TV and we start to talk. And before I can even get something out or like I get one sentence out and now it's about like I know the kids and, you know, should I go back to work? Should I not go back to work? What should I do? But like I just, it was very hard for me to talk to you because at the same time I feel like maybe what I'm feeling is silly and maybe I shouldn't. Like, you know, it's hard enough to talk about as it is. So when you start to talk about something and about anything that's difficult, when I just feel like when the other person then changes the subject in some ways and it's hard to get back to, you know, and I wish I wasn't like that, but it just, I found it. It's not that I changed the subject and purpose. I was trying to get away. I didn't understand what you were talking about. I was trying to keep up with what you were saying to me. I was responding to that. Obviously, you weren't telling me the right thing. Tell her I feel something and she answers with what she feels. What happens to you? I feel like she doesn't care enough about my feelings to sort of forget about her feelings for a minute and let's just focus on mine. And maybe I'm wrong, but I think I try to do that for you a lot. Like where I'm just like, I'm going to shut off my feelings and I'm just going to try to listen to yours. Where somebody's. To talk to somebody about my feelings. And where did you learn that? I guess. maybe my parents I mean I had a strange relationship with my parents because I felt like I was always very different from my family because they were like more religious but I always kind of felt like I had to live a little bit of a double life in a way growing up in a very traditional Muslim family he had developed the capacity to be the son at home that pretended to be that which his parents expected from him and then there was the man outside who did what he really wanted so living in a dual reality the faithful one and the authentic one the traditional Muslim one and the American one living dual realities is something that he knew very well and this was what was reactivated in his marriage as well when he had an affair now I think back and you know I guess hindsight's 2020 and I'm like you know I yes I instead of acting that way I should have sort of said okay you know forced I should have forced you to talk to me I should have you know tried to figure out what was going on you weren't happy with our sex life but I actually was completely unhappy with our sex life I felt bad telling you because I've felt like you were not into it I felt like you wanted me to do everything and I felt like everything was very forced everything can I be a little crude you thought that just because I come that means that I was satisfied because you didn't that and I did that that meant that it was great for me and terrible for you but it was terrible for me too because it was like having sex with somebody who's just like a dead body you know like because I could I know when you're into it and when you're not right and I don't mean this to I'm not saying this to try to like I'm not like that okay I'm I'm I'm telling you that I felt that way okay so either you're gonna believe me or you're not we are maybe not sexually compatible I don't then how do we continue without marriage so number one I don't think that that's the case just so we are clear the conversation about sex that we're having is less important than the fact that he's actually insisting on telling you what his experience was okay if he could do the same thing right now about cooking you understand I understand I understand that he wasn't happy with it do you know why no okay then you're not listening because you're listening and you're basically inside of you saying that's not who I am that's not how I see myself I think of myself as a very sexual man I'm a very sensual what is he talking about this is not me it is not me right but that's not what he's talking about so I don't understand why it happened like this between us because on all other listening but he never told me that he's telling me right now okay and it's good he's gonna continue he's insisting he because he cares about the subject enough that this one he's gonna fight for of course okay it does matter he's not getting any sex that's got nothing to do with it you see the issue is what he's actually trying to tell you is that your notion of giving it to him shoving it down making sure he comes as fast as possible so it's done with I hate it that's what he hates that's not true it is true it that's what it became because I would never come he doesn't care he would take me care come in five minutes and leave me this is our sex life I mean did you have good sex with me before we got married yeah did you it was good enough it was good but I don't know for the most part it was good say more I've had better but I didn't think that that would be so important before we had kids before we were married I mean it was totally different but I don't know for the most part it was good enough but I don't know for the most part it was good enough I didn't also didn't like the five minutes of sex it was terrible what did I didn't also didn't like the five minutes of sex it was terrible what did you do why did you you didn't plan you thought you do why did you you didn't plan you thought you do why did you you didn't plan you thought that's what I need to give him no that's what I need to give him no that's what I need to give him no no he did it cuz he thought that's what I no he did it cuz he thought that's what I no he did it cuz he thought that's what I can get through I I didn't want it to can get through I I didn't want it to can get through I I didn't want it to be five minutes but he was done in five be five minutes but he was done in five be five minutes but he was done in five minutes and gone and then nobody said minutes and gone and then nobody said minutes and gone and then nobody said stay he's tired I'm tired I want to go to stay he's tired I'm tired I want to go to stay he's tired I'm tired I want to go to sleep he doesn't want to have sex at sleep he doesn't want to have sex at sleep he doesn't want to have sex at night he wants to have sex in the night he wants to have sex in the night he wants to have sex in the morning it can be like a long romantic morning it can be like a long romantic morning it can be like a long romantic sex in the morning right why not rent a sex in the morning right why not rent a hotel and so was that to me like when hotel and so was that to me like when hotel and so was that to me like when you like are renting a hotel in your you like are renting a hotel in your you like are renting a hotel in your city to have sex I just can't do it like city to have sex I just can't do it like city to have sex I just can't do it like you did it was the girl it wasn't that you did it was the girl it wasn't that you did it was the girl it wasn't that it was more it was more about just the it was more it was more about just the it was more it was more about just the excitement all right let me stop you a excitement all right let me stop you a excitement all right let me stop you a second people because you don't tell him second people because you don't tell him second people because you don't tell him much he doesn't tell you much you let much he doesn't tell you much you let much he doesn't tell you much you let this thing degrade both of you your year this thing degrade both of you your year this thing degrade both of you your year into the discovery of the affair and so into the discovery of the affair and so into the discovery of the affair and so we're not in the crisis mode we're not we're not in the crisis mode we're not we're not in the crisis mode we're not but the second phase is what I call the but the second phase is what I call the but the second phase is what I call the inside it is the meaning making why did inside it is the meaning making why did inside it is the meaning making why did this happen how did this happen what did this happen how did this happen what did this happen how did this happen what did it mean for you what did you find there it mean for you what did you find there it mean for you what did you find there it's a both-hand it's what happened to it's a both-hand it's what happened to it's a both-hand it's what happened to you and what happened to us and what can you and what happened to us and what can you and what happened to us and what can we learn from it and how did we allow we learn from it and how did we allow we learn from it and how did we allow ourselves to enter a place where we ourselves to enter a place where we ourselves to enter a place where we both were quite unhappy neither of us both were quite unhappy neither of us both were quite unhappy neither of us really felt the other person is gonna really felt the other person is gonna really felt the other person is gonna hear it is gonna take it is gonna receive hear it is gonna take it is gonna receive hear it is gonna take it is gonna receive it just like that without instantly it just like that without instantly it just like that without instantly switching into a blame mode blame and switching into a blame mode blame and switching into a blame mode blame and defense that's the conversation I hear defense that's the conversation I hear defense that's the conversation I hear you're trying to have it doesn't really you're trying to have it doesn't really you're trying to have it doesn't really matter if it's around sex or about matter if it's around sex or about matter if it's around sex or about something else the form is the same once something else the form is the same once something else the form is the same once you have this kind of pattern just you have this kind of pattern just you have this kind of pattern just about every conversation will go in the about every conversation will go in the about every conversation will go in the same direction I do feel like all of our same direction I do feel like all of our same direction I do feel like all of our conversations you get very defensive conversations you get very defensive conversations you get very defensive that like I'm trying to say something that like I'm trying to say something that like I'm trying to say something negative about you but I'm not I'm negative about you but I'm not I'm negative about you but I'm not I'm trying to just tell you sort of my view trying to just tell you sort of my view trying to just tell you sort of my view on it it doesn't mean it's right it's on it it doesn't mean it's right it's on it it doesn't mean it's right it's just what I feel so here's the way you just what I feel so here's the way you just what I feel so here's the way you can tweak that she already told you I can tweak that she already told you I can tweak that she already told you I was doing something I didn't that didn't was doing something I didn't that didn't was doing something I didn't that didn't feel good but I was doing it for you so feel good but I was doing it for you so feel good but I was doing it for you so when you talk to her include that when you talk to her include that when you talk to her include that neither you liked it nor I liked it and neither you liked it nor I liked it and neither you liked it nor I liked it and then it becomes a we statement that's then it becomes a we statement that's then it becomes a we statement that's what I mean by integrating the what I mean by integrating the what I mean by integrating the experience of the other and then she can experience of the other and then she can experience of the other and then she can do the same you know here I was trying do the same you know here I was trying do the same you know here I was trying to be nice and to please you little did to be nice and to please you little did to be nice and to please you little did I know that that wasn't even what you I know that that wasn't even what you I know that that wasn't even what you want and then you can say that's not the want and then you can say that's not the want and then you can say that's not the woman I remember so that she doesn't woman I remember so that she doesn't woman I remember so that she doesn't have to say that's not who I am and then have to say that's not who I am and then have to say that's not who I am and then it's less polarized then you're not it's less polarized then you're not it's less polarized then you're not talking from the extremes the minute you talking from the extremes the minute you talking from the extremes the minute you put yourself on the extreme the other put yourself on the extreme the other put yourself on the extreme the other person will defend themselves what do I person will defend themselves what do I person will defend themselves what do I have to do different in the way I have to do different in the way I have to do different in the way I communicate what do I have to do communicate what do I have to do communicate what do I have to do this that's a beautiful question first of this that's a beautiful question first of all I don't know that I wish that you all I don't know that I wish that you all I don't know that I wish that you would hopefully just kind of listen to would hopefully just kind of listen to would hopefully just kind of listen to what I'm saying without immediately what I'm saying without immediately what I'm saying without immediately feeling like I'm attacking you because I feeling like I'm attacking you because I feeling like I'm attacking you because I promise I'm it's not my intention with promise I'm it's not my intention with promise I'm it's not my intention with whatever I'm saying whatever I'm saying whatever I'm saying to be attacking you I'm just trying to to be attacking you I'm just trying to to be attacking you I'm just trying to tell you my viewpoint but I think I do tell you my viewpoint but I think I do tell you my viewpoint but I think I do it's very rare that I just make a it's very rare that I just make a it's very rare that I just make a blanket statement like this your blanket statement like this your blanket statement like this your communication is terrible I never knew communication is terrible I never knew communication is terrible I never knew that I thought we're really good that I thought we're really good that I thought we're really good yes well that doesn't mean as a whole yes well that doesn't mean as a whole yes well that doesn't mean as a whole but this thing that I'm watching here but this thing that I'm watching here but this thing that I'm watching here is at the root of a is at the root of a is at the root of a level of a is at the root of a level of a lot of what happens and happened is that lot of what happens and happened is that lot of what happens and happened is that because we're coming from different because we're coming from different because we're coming from different backgrounds and using differently and I backgrounds and using differently and I backgrounds and using differently and I don't know how much I would put it on don't know how much I would put it on don't know how much I would put it on culture as much I would put it on your culture as much I would put it on your culture as much I would put it on your family cultures and your experiences family cultures and your experiences family cultures and your experiences that you had I do see that it wasn't that you had I do see that it wasn't that you had I do see that it wasn't good for both of you and that good for both of you and that good for both of you and that conversation needs to take place not conversation needs to take place not conversation needs to take place not what was wrong but how you change this what was wrong but how you change this what was wrong but how you change this how you learn sexual communication I how you learn sexual communication I how you learn sexual communication I just cannot do that anymore just cannot do that anymore just cannot do that anymore case closed actually like I just can case closed actually like I just can case closed actually like I just can something shut down so here's the idea I something shut down so here's the idea I something shut down so here's the idea I don't know what your relationship is don't know what your relationship is don't know what your relationship is like sexually but I have a sense of like sexually but I have a sense of like sexually but I have a sense of For both of you, it's been massively outcome-driven, rather unimaginative, too fast for both of you, and unsatisfying. It's terrible to be with a man who you feel is only pleasing himself, and it's terrible to be with a woman who you feel is just giving you pity sex. So, no matter what's going to happen, the first thing is touch. How you touch each other, how you stroke each other, how you kiss each other, and zero outcome. That's plenty of outcome. But isn't this thing supposed to happen naturally? Why is it supposed to be work? Where the hell did you learn that BS? The myth that sex is natural has done harm to so many people. Because it presumes that you should just know, rather than the fact that it is something that we learn to appreciate, to experience, we cultivate it. It's an art. And that if you think it's natural, then in fact you often remain ignorant. The one and only pumpkin spice latte and the deliciously smooth iced pecan crunch latte have arrived and are ready to sip all season long. Or find a new favorite, like the new iced banana bread latte that tastes just like fall in a cup. Tammy regularly hauls stuff to her kids at college. That's why she shops at BJ's Wholesale Club, saving up to 25% off grocery store prices. Beef jerky, microwave meals. Laundry pods, even they can't screw up. Have you met my kids? And with BJ's gas, she gets there for less. They call me the road warrior. This is your home, road warrior mom. Home of the save. Join for just $20 at BJ's.com slash mesquite and save 10 cents per gallon for six months. Open soon. Limited time offer, new members only. BJ's, home of the save. So here's what I would like to suggest to you. You're going to do it in writing. That was our best way of communication, actually. Right? When we start texting to each other, we could communicate. So you're going to take out a separate email address that nobody else knows. It is the one that is reserved for the couple. Not for the parents, not for the professionals, for the role of you as partner and lover. And you're going to just talk to each other. And there's a certain kind of intimacy. That you have not experienced in a long time. I totally agree with you. And I think it's amazing and it's great and it would totally work. But that would be a while ago. What if right now I don't even want to do that? So what do I do? I think you need more from him and him from you for that matter. To know how bad he felt. It has less to do with what he did with the other woman. Yeah. And more to do with what you did for him. That you didn't want to do to begin with. That's the betrayal. Yeah. Do you understand? Mm-hmm. Do you want him to repeat it? I want him to repeat it. I can repeat it. You're angry with me. Not so much because of what happened with the other woman. No. Not so much because of what happened with the other girl. But because you felt that you did certain things and I didn't ultimately didn't appreciate those things and then went and sought them somewhere else. It did happen. I'm sorry that it happened. I didn't want it to happen. And I think that sometimes it just felt like our clocks were off. And so when I wanted to have sex. Hold on. Hold on. Let me help you. Okay. He's not better at this than you. Just so you know. You see, what she needs to hear from you is to be left there feeling nothing. And just feeling like she's some vessel in which you get to empty yourself is a terrible feeling. And you need to talk to that. No, I shouldn't have done that. I'm sorry that I made you feel that way. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. you feel the way that you did, the way that you do now. And especially to think that I'm the reason for it. It's the worst feeling you can imagine. Do you actually understand that or are you just saying it? I mean it. Do you understand what happened? I think so. Because I don't think you do. Ask her what's the most important for you to understand. Can you tell me what it is that you feel is the most important thing for me to understand that maybe you think I don't? I feel used. I feel like our whole marriage is just me around around your knee. And you never try. I know that you think by providing that you did your part. But I'm talking more about emotional things. I've been trying to show you that. I don't know if I've been doing a good job of it. You've been much better in terms of how you're at home. You're involved with the kids. It more feels like a family more now. But the love thing between us, that I don't know how to bring back. So one of the ways it comes back is when you do have the feeling that he gets it. What does it mean to say I feel used? That doesn't mean it's all what he did. I understand. And a part of why it went so long, if I may, is because you did absorb some very old patriarchal notions of I have to give it to him. Because that's what men need. That's part of how we're raised in Eastern Europe. That is culture. Cater to men. Cater to them. You just give it to them. And he doesn't want you to just give it to him. The conversation will be primarily on each of you having the experience that the other person gets it. And that you can together say what happened to us? What did we do? Versus you did this and you did that. Don't let this sit and don't think time is going to do all of it. It needs attention. Your kids are watching you. They're learning from you. When I talk about how dissatisfying their respective experiences have been, both in terms of the emotional intimacy and in terms of the sexual connection, this is the one place where they actually meet. And then from here, it's about understanding the particular details of their respective experience. In my work with this couple, I'm not looking for a happy denouement. And while they become at the same time very sad, they also are perhaps sad, they also are perhaps speaking more to each other than they have in a long time. And they're speaking to truth more than they have in a long time. And perhaps this is the most we will be able to do today in this one session that I will have had with this couple. You just heard a classic session of "Where Should We Begin?" with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of "Mating in Captivity in the State of Affairs." She also created a game of stories called "Where Should We Begin?" For details, go to her website, estherperel.com. ♪♪♪ Your favorite fall flavors are back at Starbucks. Or find your favorite taste of fall, only at Starbucks. The one and only pumpkin spice latte and the deliciously smooth iced pecan crunch latte pumpkin spice latte and the deliciously smooth iced pecan crunch latte have arrived and are ready to sip all season long or find a new favorite like the new iced banana bread latte that tastes just like fall in a cup you can find your favorite taste of fall only at starbucks