I took my Average Fee from 8k to 135k

Hey guys, welcome back to another episode of Top Billers Toolkit, where me and my twin brother interview Top Billers from all around the globe to unlock the secrets to their success. Today's guest is Callum Ronaga Mundi. Callum is a partner at Hubscale, a firm growing incredibly quickly that focuses on cyber and AI search. Callum is a 500K Biller himself, but also a manager of a high performance team, some of whom are on track for a million pounds and billing this year. Callum breaks down Hubscale's secret formula to scaling so quickly by hiring leaders first before consultants. He also breaks down how hyponishing has allowed Hubscale to unlock multiple doors with huge private equity clients, and he also talks about how he was able to take his fees from 8 to 10K up to 120 to 150K, which is absolutely insane. Another great episode guys sprinkled with golden nuggets throughout the entire episode without further ado, grab a cuppa or a glass of wine depending on when you're listening to this and let's jump into it. Shall we? Wait a second guys, quick question for you. If you could land a new client on LinkedIn in the next couple weeks, how much would that be worth to you? 20, 30, maybe 40K? Well, we have a pretty crazy offer on right now. If you are a recruitment business owner, then we will work with you for free and write you two posts at absolutely no cost. And here's the thing, other recruiters that have come through our free trial have actually won new clients, they've racked up hundreds of thousands of impressions and they've secured high value candidates. And here's the cool part, other recruiters that have come through this free trial have managed to win new clients, they've racked up hundreds of thousands of impressions and started conversations with top tier candidates. It's completely risk free, so you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. If you're interested, the links in the description below. If not, no worries. We hope you enjoy the podcast. See you later. Calum, thank you so much for coming on top billers toolkit. How are you, my friend? I'm very well. Thank you for having me. Awesome, really excited about this episode. For those of you who don't know, Calum is a partner at Hubscale. I've seen their posts all over LinkedIn. You guys are absolutely smashing it, so I just can't wait to get into this and ask you more questions. But let's start off with the first question as always, which is what's the number one tool in your toolkit, whether it be a mindset strategy or software? You know what, it's a great question. And thanks for having me on the podcast as well. But I think it changes. It has changed for me massively over the last couple of years, especially. But I think more recently it's twofold between kind of mindset and strategy. I think as I've moved more and more into a leadership position, away from being an individual contributor, there are two elements that I kind of go hand in hand with each other right, because I think as a leader, and especially if I link this into Hubscale where we're going, you need really clear strategy. You need really clear direction that a group of people are willing to go on a journey with you on and have a clarity of execution behind what they're doing day to day, more than just this bigger picture of just doing recruitment. But also at the same time, you know, recruitment's recruitment. You know, it has its ups and its downs. You can't always be having a great week, a great day, or even a great hour, right? There's always something going on in the background. So mindset has been, you know, and it a real kind of learning curve for me about, you know, the importance of behavior, the importance of mindset in and around the room when you're in and amongst the team of people, you know, how you drive people forward, how you create an environment around that mindset of, you know, creating high performance because it is interlinked massively for me around mindset, you know, how much does a deal impact you? Does it write you off for a week or is it a couple of hours and then you're back in the game? You know, how does it impact your ability to do the, you know, the things that people don't see or don't want to do necessarily, but actually is the thing that gets you towards being a 500, 600 million pound billar, right? Mindset is everything in this and I think for me, retraining the brain, training the mindset, you know, having a clear strategy that interlinks to that, they can go hand in hand and they've been really powerful over the last couple of years for sure. Really interesting. I know you've been on a really interesting journey, Callum, from individual contributed to our partner and managing a team. Are there any things that you have developed either strategies, behaviors, habits around mindset that have really helped you to kind of take things to the next level? I think strategies are an interesting one because you kind of need to know where you're going before you get there to make really well-informed decisions, but people really overcomplicate strategy and I think they kind of go, "I need to be deeply technical, we need to know every element of everything we're doing." And I actually think that you need a clear point A to point B, you know, that's what strategy is, but strategy is nothing without execution. Any one of us can walk in a room with a whiteboard and come up with this amazing plan, the difference between those who are good and those who are great and really strong leadership between just good leadership is how do you convert strategy into execution? And that was the big mindset shift for me around it. It's all well and you know, taking a group of people together and kind of going, "We're going to go and be the best search firm in the world or we're going to be our mission statement," which is to be the number one go-to-market search, you've built practice in the world, right? That's amazing. It's amazing mission to work towards, but without the execution behind it, it's really difficult to do that and go on that journey. And I think that's been the big shift of, it's not just about strategy, but it's about how you turn that into tangible's every day, every week and convince people that what they're doing is taking you one step closer towards that goal and that end mission as well. And then you can really, you can interlink mindset into that, you know, really easily of, you know, people often when they have a bad week or a bad month or, you know, they're going through a tougher part and their career will go, "Why am I doing this, why am I doing this for?" And so, some people, it's not just the money element, right? They want purpose, they want a career, they want to feel like they're striving towards something bigger, and you can always interlink that one question is, you know, does this take me one step closer to our strategic vision, you know, to be the number one in the world? Is the decisions I'm making, are the actions I'm making right now taking me one step closer? And if you can sort of retrain your brain towards that, it's a lot easier to have clarity of execution, make better decisions, feel like you are, you know, able to really push through some of probably more challenging months and quarters to get that as early as you really want. Really interesting. And I found that, I find it fascinating, it's the execution part and being able to turn strategy into execution. I think that's really interesting and important. And remember, we interviewed another firm a while back and they said there was one thing that made the biggest difference to like execution and accountability, and it was like a daily WhatsApp message, the team, I think it's like in the morning, and then in the afternoon, and it was like that simple thing was like a huge shift for accountability and execution. Are there any things that you guys have done in the business like that could be really simple or more complex that have helped you guys to to execute and hold each other accountable? I think, so we've grown a lot, right? And I'm sure we'll go into it. We've grown really quickly. And one of the really difficult things to do and what I've seen go wrong before is it's trying to keep too much control on everything in every part of your business and not actually allowing people to go ahead and do the execution for you. You know, that's really important because it's, leaders should set the vision and set the strategy and kind of have that clarity from point A to point B. What happens between point A and point B is actually where you need to allow people to go away and define what's successes for them to get you to the end goal. And for us, a big part of that is empowering managers to make decisions, letting them fail and fail in a comfortable, safe environment and make mistakes and it not be a career end for them. It's giving them the ability to perhaps come up with things we haven't thought about. Do we need to redefine our product? Do we need to reinvent how we're executing for customers? And it's also understanding what you're good and what you're not good at, you know, me and Elliot White know we're, you know, our strengths are more lent towards strategy, you know, business development, you know, financial acquisition. We're not so strong when it comes to the nitty gritty KPIs and the detail of what you actually do when the work comes into the business and being able to recognize that and then look at your management layer or look at your individual contributors and go actually we've got people in the business that are phenomenal at that. So let's let them run with that. Let's let them set the tone and define what the business needs to be in that area. And we've done it really recently where we've completely redesigned the back end of our business everything from how we hire our interview process, you know, as we've grown defining what is the hub scale way. So we're now five business units and rather than having them actors independent entities, it's like we all want the every single one of those business units operating in the same sort of way so that a customer gets the same experience whether they're working with go to market, exec search or product and engineering, that takes time, that takes energy that has to also be owned by the people in the business and the strength of the business for me is often defined by the strength of this, you know, peer group within the company, you know, how much are they going to own of the business, how much are they willing to own in its improvement. If it's always top down, you've got a problem, it might happen, because you constantly be, you know, speaking at people rather than allowing them to execute on the things that really are going to drive change moving forward. I am going to jump to Sorry, sounds like that. do you have a question? I, uh, yes, I was going to probably jump to where you're jumping though right now. Do the me and Sam, um, Calumas, you know, we're a little bit biased to B.D. from this, uh, um, this podcast. So I'd love to eat yours, you're still building 500K, leading a team, which is amazing. So I'd love to talk about B.D. Maybe we can start with you, Calum, and then maybe go on to your team in terms of where you guys have found the best success in terms of B.D. and winning new clients. Yeah. I think like, so to part of the reason that, you know, billing while you're a billing manager, um, has been possible for me, probably began 18 months get right. It was all based around the foundations and the work that went in two years ago to build the relationships, uh, build the connection, build the client base that gives you the ability to sort of spread your time more thinly. I think where it goes wrong for people is that if you're in two transactional of the market and then you fall into a leadership wrong, you've got 10 plus people, it's extremely difficult to keep generating that new customer every month, that new piece of work every month and do the leadership element. If you're in a position where you've got a relationship led, um, you know, market, a relationship led desk where you can lean on people when you need them, it's far easier to manage your time and get success. Um, but for me, for me, the, the basics of business development when I joined and, and we came here was centered all around relationships, it was centered all around developing really, really in-depth knowledge of the market. Right? So, focusing cyber is huge, you know, four and a half thousand vendors globally. You can't just claim to do cyber because one day you'll get captured into a, uh, uh, a pitch or a brief, they'll ask you what you know about identity, security and who the direct competitors are for them and they'll immediately call your bluff, you know, it's, it's, it's so nicheed in, in that regard. But then also as well, even within it, there's a big difference in our world between hiring individual contributors than hiring leadership. So again, you can't be all things to everyone and I think it's really difficult to walk in a room, be it with a private equity firm or even to a CEO and pitch for a sea level role or a VP level role and then also follow that up with, oh, but I did see have a sales rep in New York. I can do that for you too, immediately credibility because you go, I'll keep you the guide. I'm going to trust to hire my next sea level leader that's integral to the success of my company for the next three months, but you also want the sales rep role. How does that make sense? So the differentiation was really poor, important really early on and building your own personal brand for what it is you want to be known for, you know, and that business development began mainly on a relationship led element, you know, so it was going out me in open to work senior leaders. It was networking around, you know, getting referrals into different leaders and different parts of the market. It was niching down for me. So my mom was just VP to sea level leadership across enterprise stage cyber vendors. So I never touched a startup business. I didn't even really look at the mid market. It was just larger enterprise businesses that were primarily 100 million and above from a revenue perspective. And then it was building a network within that of people that I knew were going to be really influential for me in terms of helping me get in the room, which I think is the hardest thing you can do as a recruiter, but then more importantly build trust and build momentum over time. Because these are people that are key decision makers, they hire, they're influential, both in the businesses and within the markets that we operate in. So it began for me just all about building this network. And I talk a lot internally about building foundations, you know. Everybody wants to rush to the successful part of their career, but actually you've got to do a lot of work in the meantime to build those real concrete foundations. And it's like building a skyscraper, right? You build a skyscraper on sand, you get to a certain height, it'll probably tip over. If you build it on concrete, there's no limit to how high you can take that skyscraper. And it's in this kind of analogy, the skyscraper is your career. If you focus on building really strong foundations, your network, your customer base, your relationships, doing the right things, you know, when you talk to people and you try not to be too transactional, you'll build really strong foundations for the future as well. Love it. What do you think was the most, I think there's probably sounds like there were layers to building relationships calendar, but if you had to like, if someone said hey, calendar, you have to choose one thing that you did in the relationship building process that had the biggest 8020, was it going out to networking events, was it inviting people out to dinner, was it, what was the like the thing that you think had the biggest ROI? I think the biggest ROI was consistency at touchpoint. So one thing I learned quite early on is that there are not enough jobs to keep everybody happy all the time, you know, especially at leadership and within neglect search. If you think, you know, you've probably got a few thousand people competing over any one point 10 to 50, maybe a hundred jobs at any one time. So there's probably it's, you know, a 10 or 20 to one ratio of people going for one job. If you work out fairly quickly that only one person can get that job and therefore only one person can theoretically be happy, how do you keep 19 other people happy? That was for me, it was the consistency of touchpoint. So I would have a weekly reminder of my diary, I would do an intake call with a senior leader, spend a good amount of time with them anywhere up to an hour on that first call, really just to get to know them. You know, I didn't want to sell them anything, didn't want to talk about hub scale, it was all about them. And then I would do a weekly reminder every single week to have some sort of touchpoint for at least eight weeks, mug them, be it, it could have just been a WhatsApp. Hey, how things going, you know, let me know for you for a catchup. It could have been a more formal zoom in the diary to really talk about the market, but every single one of those touchpoints will try to add value one way or another. What happened over that when you multiply that by, you know, the 25, 30, 40 people you're speaking to a week, you get very busy, you know, so it can be quite difficult to maintain, you have to be really smart about where you put your time away, don't, but in multiply your impact on those individuals throughout a process where actually you build a relationship beyond just a placement and then it's evaluating you for market information, market knowledge. And what really happened, the acquisition of customers that we had is that most of the customers we were signing were people that we'd never placed, some we'd never even gotten into for, but we just built really meaningful deep relationships with them because we spent the time to get to know them. And you might look and I think I haven't really got time to do that, you know, it takes too long and I need to, but actually happens really quickly because if you think most people only really looking for a job for a four to eight week period before they're snapped up and it's trying not to get to obsessed necessarily with the focal point of just half the place this person is actually what else can we do for them, how do we develop that relationship? So they want to stay with you long term and then they take you on a journey where if you do that for a Chief Revenue Officer, for example, in our market when they land a role, they're going to need a new VP of Amir, a new VP of America's, a new VP of APJ, they're going to be a new sales team, they're going to need a new marketing team, they will call you because who's the person that comes to their mind is not necessarily the person that was placed and Mr. Persons spent the time on them to really help through that true and transition and that that was the one thing that things been a game changer or was a game changer for the kind of the accelerated success that we had at Alps go. We're really interesting on and then just a quick follow-on from that because if you were to speak to every candidate and give every candidate like half an hour, it would be absolutely insane and that'll be like a full time job and itself wouldn't it? And so I'm just wondering my guess I'm guessing now but you can correct me Kalem is that depending on the caliber of the candidate you would obviously assess okay this guy's been or this woman's been at some brilliant companies she's probably going to be snapped up soon let me build a relationship with them because it's going to pay off in the long run is that kind of a criteria that you come back to that niche right? So for example like mine was a hundred million plus a sub-score event is so would I spend the next day week speaking to a CR over one million ARR start? Absolutely not you know we have people in the business that can do that and you know if you look at the niche stands that we have within the business they're all focused on the talent pool within their spaces effective and impactful in their niche so they wouldn't let so you wouldn't find somebody who only does startups speaking to the CR over 500 million ARR publicly traded is very vendor because number one they're not going to have anything for them number two it's not going to benefit their their skin it sounds like an incredibly selfish thing to do but actually you have to you have to really focus on where you can spend your time because you can't speak to everyone so I was I was savage about it you know really I think what of being like does this person fit within my ICP does this person fit within my customer target profile and if they did then they would just I'd just be really honest with them and say look I'm just not going to have anything for you and you have to just be really strict for the time yeah of what it looks like yeah makes complete sense mate and what's for when you have new recruiters joining the business calendar what's the blueprint that you hand off to people to start conversations because I think that's always that can be equally as difficult is just getting these guys on the call in the first place um what what tends to be again go back to the 80 20 principle what tends to be the best way of opening doors and and getting people on calls do you think in in the business it's changed a lot because I think you know at one point then you go back a couple of years or even you can go back further at one point a simple LinkedIn message probably would have captured most people. You can have a chat with it. I don't think that's as effective anymore. I think you need, in this day and age, it was quite hard. You need the credibility earlier and sooner. Sometimes that can come from using company, case studies, our customer reference here is getting connection. We're very, very lucky ups go. You've got 20 people who didn't go to market, all doing cyber, and there is probably somebody in the business at some point, if you're a new starter, that can get you introduced to 10 people from sort of day ones, get you speaking to them. When you look at a new, if a new person joins our business, we try and take away as much of that pain as possible for them, so we will predefined their niche, give them a market that they're going to work within, give them their ICP, define their customer base, potentially maybe you already have one or two customers that they can, we can plug them into early on, but they already walk in and they want to knew exactly who their ICP is, you know, exactly who their customer base is, and they know exactly what their ideal buying persona is within that customer base. Then the outreach becomes initially probably more about hub ska, who we are and what we do, and over a six to 12 year period, that transitions to here's who I am, here is what I have done, because over time, you would have had success, you would have made placements and you can build referrals, but also it's multiple different touch points, we do a lot of events, we encourage the guys to get out to do many events and meet as many people in person, you know, it's me trying to, you know, not just do LinkedIn in mouse all the time, it's, you know, getting back on the phone like, something the people just aren't doing, they just get on the phone and calling people and having an introduction, it's texting people, you know, because everyone's so busy, they're just struggling with text and hey, you know, we'd love to have a chat, this is why I'm reaching out, this is what I do, can we think sometime soon, but then also using the network has been just the game changer for us, like the amount of mutual connections people have and you'll be surprised who people know if you just ask, and if you're a new starter, the best way to succeed for me is just osmosis, just be in it, just absorb and just do as much as you can and within the realm of your world, and it will all start to slowly come together in time. Really cool. I think nicheing is a really interesting subject, the amount of recruiters that I speak to that don't really have a niche, haven't committed to a niche, and look, there are the anomalies out there that we've interviewed who are kind of demand hunters and don't have a niche, but it's so few and far between. I think most people need a niche and will succeed with a niche, but as you say, even going deeper into a sub-niche or a hyper-niche, however you want to call it, how do you guys decide on what niche to go down within cyber, for example, is it like a lot of research based on growth and other things like that, like how do you decide on that? Yeah, I think it's pretty crazy to not have a niche in this day and age. If you go back 5, 7, 8 years, 10 years, you could get away with doing 3, 4, 5 underground and maybe not having a niche, but I think that was really hard because there is so much competition in what we do, right? There are 40, 50,000 agencies in the UK alone, and the differentiators are so minimal between them now. You could probably name 100 tech recruiters in the UK, and not one of them really other than the colour of their website or a couple of cake studies has any real niche differentiator between them. They just tech UK, right? The depth of knowledge and depth of understanding of the market has become more and more important, especially when you look at emerging market, it's like cyber and AI, because they're going to evolve really, really quickly, like they're going to change, they're going to adapt really, really quickly, so you need to be ahead of that, and on top of that, doing cyber as a generalisation, if we sit right, go out there, there's 4,500 cyber vendors, just go and try and win what you can, you'll end up in a really transactional state where you're in that constant flow state of having to find work every single month to put revenue on the board, which is unenjoyable, it's not fun, at least to burn out, and actually you don't really become credible or become an expert in anything, you just sort of generally doing cyber and probably not doing it to the, to the highest level. The hype in each of us was starting to really understand a little bit more around like kind of what different businesses needed at different iterations as well, so we worked out pretty early on that we would split start-up business from what we call our enterprise business, start-up business for supporting founders, VC fans, you know, and they need a very different style of recruitment, different style of support, they're usually looking, you know, from our perspective, for the first time higher in the US, it could be the first time VP of sales, they're looking at very, very early on builds, and that that needs a different type of management than it does, their position in themselves in position where growth is everything, you know, customer acquisition, growth, fast pace, move at pace, this is all new to them, it's all exciting, their market understanding probably needs a bit of education, any guidance around what they should be paying, what good looks like, and actually what they're really looking for is insight from you as a recruitment partner, they're not paying you for a CV, they're paying you for market knowledge, they're paying you for your experience of how and where you've done this before, if you're a first-time founder and you're walking around with someone at Hubscan and that start-up team, they could probably give you 5, 10, 15, maybe 20 examples of where they work with another founder and can regurgitate the mistakes that were made, what they would do differently, how they would hire differently, give them, you know, more importantly, back channels and references that they can go and speak to to credit, what they're saying, which is really really important, and also they have deep domain expertise so they can talk to them about their industry, if you're a founder of a identity security vendor, and a recruiter comes on the call and he can list all your competitors, what stays there at, what funding around there at, who do they hide, when they hide them, roughly how much they were paying, that's incredibly valuable versus if somebody jumping on the call and going, I do cyber, you're a cyber vendor, what do you need, and I'll help you find it, and they go, okay, but, you know, I need a bit more than that. So that's how we kind of define start-up, and then we've verticalized within it, you know, someone does identity, somebody does, you know, AI security, somebody does application security, data security, and there are crossovers, but generally speaking, there's domains within them where you've got two, three, four hundred vendors within there, in those early iterations of becoming bigger businesses, and need different levels of support. And then the enterprise business was different based altogether, because you're looking at primarily private equity or publicly-traded companies who are very mature, are probably going through some sort of transition, transaction, have a different kind of pain, they're going, you know, we're here, a hundred million, we have the exit in the next two years, we have to get the leadership team ready for that. Do we have the right leaders to do that? Well, our current CEO, he's phenomenal, but he's never taken us through an exit, you'll never take any company through an exit, so he's not going to take us through an exit, we need to make a change. And then that level of support and guidance is different because what they look for, that that is probably some sort of search where it's really thorough, really in-depth, takes two, three months, you may even introduce, and we've had this a few times because of our market knowledge, we introduced the candidate that they hire on day one, and we still go through a 12-week process, and they go through the 12-week process because of what they're actually looking for is confidence in their decision-making. Okay, we've got the person, we know that's the person, but I need to now go and prove to the board that I've done everything to show that actually is still the right decision. And then at the end of the 12-week, they go and hide the person anyway, and as a recruiter, you go, I've done all that word, we could have just had this, we could have filled this up a week, you know, but you kind of have to go through that iteration, and it's a different product, and it's a different service for that enterprise business, and even for what's been really fascinating about that part of the business, it's massively unlocked our build business, which is basically where we're working on huge RPOs for companies like LaGoura, for example, where we'll work on 20, 30, 40, 50 highs at a time and deploy like embedded talent teams into them. That's created another whole element of our company, where actually we're not just placing leaders, but we're helping them scale massive international teams, and it's again a different conversation from what a founding business or a startup is. I feel like there's everyone wants access to like PE firms, it's like the Holy Grail of Clients, and again, Canada's, I mean, never, recruiters always tell me this, it's like, yeah, I want to get access to PE firms, but then they have, you know, they've never worked with them before, they, as you say, they can't really vocalize the pain points in the journey and exactly what they need, so it's difficult. What is it just purely about relationships and being in the room with the right people in time, or is there any like little secrets or things that you've learned, Callum of actually penetrating and getting in with PE firms? The thing for us that we just used to our advantage as we just did cyber, so any PE firm that we walked into, we looked at their portfolio and we went, we're only interested in four, and they went, that's weird, that normally like search firm would want access to everything. We're just interested in those four companies, we can tell you everything about them, all their competitors, what they're up to, the market knowledge we could give the firm was the thing that really different. us. And at first I thought they found it quite strange and they were like, mm-hmm, that's a strange business model. And then as we've added AI into our offering and we're building out of our practice, they've then started to come to us and go, what do you know about, you know, this, what, so we've just bought this AI business? Could you, could you kind of help us out here a little bit? And it's now started to come an inbound mission because we spent an awful lot of time just being saying no, which in that world is really weird, really weird, is that being approached all the time. And the other part of it was actually just accepting that these are not quick wins and actually you need to have it ingrained in your culture as a business that winning private reforms, even VC firms, is a 12 to 18 months journey meaning, and it takes time, it takes investment, and you have to accept that also as well, it's very rarely like an exclusive partnership or they just want to work with you, they have a host of different firms they work with for different things. So, us getting in the room by just saying, hey, we're just not interested in anything, I'll do the cyber businesses. Well, that thing that kind of people, they're interested as to why, why, why we should be talking to them. And you know, for example, we've got some really great PE firms that we work with who, as soon as they acquire a cyber company or they make changes in the cyber company, they'll call us straight away. But if they buy a SaaS company or a gaming company, they wouldn't even dream of calling us. So, some other search firms, that would be absolutely insane, they'd want access to it, but we're happy with that because it's just what we have value. And I think no is important. Yeah, really interesting. Just wanted to go over to your, to the managing side, calumks, I know you see and you probably see in a variety of different people managing the desk in different way, they may be doing BD in a slightly different way, different mindsets. And just curious, the top performers that you've seen, if there's any specific things you can share in terms of the type of BD they do or the type of mindset habits they have, I just want to kind of get a picture of the top billers that you surround yourself with and why they are at the level they are, if that makes sense. I think one of the commentaries between all of them, because you're right, they're all so different, right? And they'll have different ways and different stars. I think one of the mistakes is to try and create an environment of this is the one thing that leads to success because we're all different as individuals and we all have different sales tactics. You have to allow them the freedom to be themselves to be successful. But one thing they all have in common is they're incredibly precious about their time, how they allocate it, how they spend it, how they use it. And I think for the individual countries that are extremely high performers, they're incredibly efficient, right? So some of our top performers in this business are not the ones who are sat there from 7 a.m. to 9 o'clock at night, it's the ones who are rocking up at quarter to 10, they leave at 6, you know, they're incredibly efficient with their time, they go home, they finish a few calls, you get to the end of the quarter, they've done 150, 200 grand like quarter, they're incredibly efficient about what they do and how they do it. And I think that's a misconception, you know, around with some of our newbies as well, because they come in and they go, wow, this is extremely high performance, people here are doing crazy numbers, I'll put an absolute shift in and I'll go, you know, I love it, it's amazing, we all have to put the graft in to get the results. But if you're say a desk at 9 o'clock at night, you know, scrolling through LinkedIn, barely keeping your eyes open, you're not good to anyone, go home, go get good, let's come back again. And I think we kind of, we've worked really hard to get rid of that culture of old school recruitment where you're at your desk from 7 to 7 or 8 till 8 and that's the only way you can be successful because it's all focused on outcomes at the end of the day. If the outcomes are there, that's what we want. And I think from a leadership perspective and a management perspective, some of our managers that we've got now are still that in that top billing cohort because the same rules apply. We coach them and guide them around what are you actually trying to create within your team? Well, you're trying to create highly accountable, highly efficient, but individuals that can think for themselves. So you part of that is actually being selfish for your time. You may have a weekly kickoff on the Monday where you sit in your objectives for your team or your individuals and you'll have a touch point on Thursday to go look how we got on with those objectives or we achieved. But in between, don't leave them alone, let them get on with it, let them make mistakes, let them, you know, go out there and, you know, speak to the peer group if they can't figure out what they need to do or, you know, give them the ability to kind of mold how they're developing and how they're moving forward. And of course we have tons of training, tons of support, but creating a nursery, as I like to call it, isn't good for anyone. And some of the most important advantages in the world is because it accidentally creates a nursery and a dependency on them, then the team have to come to them for everything. Your validation, can I send this LinkedIn message, you know, oh, is this okay? Is that okay? Is this okay? And there be some people listening to it going, oh, shit, that's me, I've done that by accident. And it's normal, because when you first get into management, you want to be so, you want them to feel like, you know, you're always available, you're, you know, accessible, you're there to help them, you're there to support them. And then by doing that by accident, you actually, you actually shoot yourself in the fur a little bit and there's trying to find the balance of where you give them the time when you don't give them the time, giving them an environment where they can make a mistake and actually, it's not a deal breaker. And then that, as long as they learn from it, and then they can go out and reapply, reapply, reapply, and you'll end up in a situation where actually you've got a team of people that perform in and you freed up maybe a day and a half a week for yourself to actually do what you're really good at as well. And keep, keep winning business and keep winning work. Love it, mate. I love the nursery term. I haven't heard that before, Kalim. That's a, that's a perfect term. Love it. I would love to, um, because you guys have grown really quickly, Kalim, and I'm sure, I think I asked you about this in the prequel. I'm sure there's been some lessons along the way, some like pivotal moments that, you know, mistakes that you've made, things that you've done, um, just the, the lessons, I guess is what I'm trying to figure out and extract, if possible, Kalim. So from the last kind of couple of years, what have been the biggest lessons for you, do you think, the all mistakes that you've made that have, have actually been really useful? It's a good question. You know, we're probably still learning them. We're probably still making them competing on this, you know, because, you know, we, we'll never cleanse, we perfect, I mean, growing and I think we've probably had maybe three or four iterations of the business since I've been here, you know, we were without six to ten people where actually there wasn't a lot of management required. It was very like in the room, make money, get out there, make noise, build the brand, super fun. Everyone was in it together. Amazing. Then you go from that 10 to 20, where actually you're becoming a bit of a bigger business and you're bringing people in who maybe don't know the market, have a learn side before and actually you're starting to, the business is starting to sort of form itself, you know, the different business units appearing, different layers of management are appearing. You kind of go, okay, that's really interesting. But do we actually have something behind that that supports hiring that many people? Have we got a really solid training program? No, we didn't. Did we even have an audit program? No, we didn't. Did we have like a uniform, you know, guideline around how we were hiring people and what actually was a hub scale persona or a hub scale employee? Not really. You know, we were kind of just going, you know, they've built good money, they seem to be switched on, they seem to be smart, let's get them in and we'll teach them how we do our thing. But that doesn't scale. They don't scale well, kind of, it's not vibe, check in, but you're kind of just figuring it all out. And then obviously as we've gone from 20 to 35 and we now have three offices, we have a different problem emerged, which was, you know, how do you, it's really easy to create culture and create a business within four walls, you know, but how do you do that when hire your businesses in London, hire your businesses in Austin in Texas on a completely different time zone? So then we had a different challenge and things we had to figure out about what was the hub scale culture, you know, which we had a pretty good idea about, but how do you replicate that in an office with people that have never ever worked in Manchester, weren't there early on, you know, and you look at Austin and then the team we've got over there of, you know, people who have never really spent more than a few weeks at time in the UK in the in the hub scale offices. So that's again another challenge that we've had to really kind of work through and work really hard at it. And I think the thing we've met, we've done really well as a leadership team. I think Ellie has done brilliantly as a founder. He's just that consistency of message and narrative and drive and he's always put culture at the number one thing of everything we've ever done. Beyond, even at time beyond revenue, like beyond, you know, the day today of it, it's like the culture has to be something important and everybody has to, everybody can be different, everybody has different styles, different personalities, different backgrounds, but fundamentally, we have to fit within these cultures and values that we see as a company. And then you can trust people to embody that in a new office and a new location because they're one the same hymns. and when we, I mean, we interviewed, I think it was 128 people in our first, like, last year, when we first started to grow and hide about 14. We would never do that again, but that was, again, just a lesson learner, actually, because we didn't really know what we were looking for, why we were looking for it, and we had an idea of we needed certain personas, but it's just having a real sort of, you know, plan behind what you're doing as well, but then also accepting things are going to go wrong. Like, that is just part of it. That is part of the journey of getting bigger, and our current iteration where we're going from, you know, 35 to probably 50 people by the end of this year, will probably uncover different things that we're not aware of, different challenges, different hurdles, and we will just adapt and work through those, and you have to just address them head on. You can't hide even them. I mean, that's one of the biggest things that we've done also really well is we've never hid from anything. You know, if there was a problem that was slapping us in the face, we'd just go straight for it and address it head on. We're fixing it. You know, we knew we had a problem with execution in the business that we spent the best part of three months fixing it, but not just going, okay, like we'll do a couple of training courses on it, we fundamentally rebuild that entire part of our business so that we knew execution was scalable, because how we'd been delivering at eight people hadn't changed when we were 35 people, and then you're never going to get to 50, 60, 70 people doing what we were doing when we were eight people, which just doesn't work like that. It's actually tackling things head on and being like, actually, we need to really invest in this change and then getting the team bought in and all the different people is actually going to impact their today, bought in and letting them be part of that, as well as really important to get through those hurdles and the different changes. Interesting man. I'd love to talk about this kind of related column. You guys had at 10 people, you had eight leaders, which are fascinating, and you obviously put a huge emphasis on hiring good leaders first, which is the opposite to how most recruiters normally scale, isn't it? So why did you guys decide to do it that way instead? I'll never say credit for it because it was certainly Elliot White and not me that has this philosophy and came up with the plan behind it. But if you think about it, it kind of makes sense, right? Because if you look at most recruitment companies, where do they struggle to get scale? Well, they struggle because they have a founder and then nine recruitment consultants, and it's, there comes a natural pinch point as an individual. You can only have so many direct reports, and there's only so much within that you can do as a founder running a business. They today, like you just run out of time, it's impossible. And then layer, the layers of that, like management becomes a real problem, and then it's really, really hard to hire a leader that can come and take on nine people that's credible, that they like, that doesn't risk churn, doesn't risk people fundamentally just voting with their feet, right? You're always going to get some degree of upset around that. It's really hard to do. And then you have to keep doing that over and over again. If you keep hiring from the bottom, you have to keep doing that, and that causes pain within the business long term. And the other way is also, you know, when you hire leaders first, I think a lot of people don't do it because it's risky. It's more expensive. You're throwing your eggs into a basket of probably an unknown answer. You don't actually know really truly as much as you can do due diligence if they're the right leader for such a small start at the time. But I remember, like you say, we have like eight leaders when we were ten people, but he was a really conscious decision early on from Elliot to decide, okay, what markets do we want to be in, what business units do we need within those markets? Let's go find those people, let them build the foundations of the market, get really deep expertise in their specialism, and then build around them, and let them figure out what they want, because then they can go from, you know, maybe they hire somebody, you know, fairly experienced as their first hire to support them going out of winning work, winning clients. And then the hire after that might be a mid-level hire to help them actually do some delivery and start to learn the market. They've got a bit more time behind it. But you can make better decisions about how and who you hire when you do that as well, when you've got the leader in place first. But it is riskier because you just never know, you know, it's an expensive way to it and you never know all the time what you're going to get. We were really lucky, like our leadership team's incredible. But we were super intentional, and that's probably part of the reason why we interviewed 128 people, because we kind of knew deep down what we were looking for from those different experience levels. And Elliot being from a go-to-market background, you know, hiring someone who had deep product and engineering knowledge was integral to a leader for that business unit. He could have never entered that market or got into that space for cyber, just by himself, and got the pace of execution and the pace of success out of it without hiring, you know, James Dean to come in and do that. And it's been very, very similar with Max Blake, who we've hired down in London to do the AI engineering space and focus on our RPO business. You know, we've always had the intent that we kind of wanted to go down that route. But do you spend a couple of years learning the RPO business, getting to know the instantouts of how it works, trying to pitch it probably pretty badly, because we've never pitched it before. Would you go and hire a leader who has like 10 years' domain experience in the space, and then create an environment for them that they can excel, you know, within a very short period of time, he's brought in multiple RPOs, and now has a capacity problem, but a capacity problem is far easier to solve than we don't know how to execute. It kind of converts my original point strategy versus execution. We all sat in a room at some point that said, right, we want to go to market practice, exec and build, we want a product and engineering practice, exec and build, we want an RPO business. And then to execute on that, you have to look at the gaps and go, none of us know anything about RPO, but you know, we need to hire someone who does products and engineering. If you get the right people in at that leadership level, the execution comes, and then it's, you know, from there everything starts to fall into place. And we've still got a huge amount of work to do. We're still learning, you know, there's so much more we want to achieve and build from it, but again, when you get the right people in the right place, you can move the needle far quicker than just trying to do everything yourself, because the time, the uptake time is just crazy, especially in today's market. We're jumping around like crickets at the moment, a call only found the question. So forgive me, just trying to write answers, by the way, so thank you so much. What I'd love to jump to is your fees, you told me that your fees went from about eight to 10k up to 120 to 150, which is I'm sure every recruiters dream is to like double triple, quadruple their fees, because they can just obviously earn more money with an equal amount of effort. What was that process like for you? How did you do it? What was the jump like? Maybe you can kind of explain it to people that might be trying to do the same thing? Yeah, and I've had a few good few messages over the years about people asking me about this, and the first thing that I think is really important is you have to be really honest about the market you're operating in, and whether it's actually feasible within your environment, if you're in a market like I was, doing the UK tech recruitment fairly localized for the Northwest, and you generally place software engineers or heads of technology anywhere from 12 to 15k. It's probably not possible to get 100k fees at that at that market, and that's the key thing here is like it's not trying to convince people or tell people there's some sort of magic to go from a 10k fee to a 100k fee. It's actually environment, which is a big part of it, and being in the right market and then working really hard at that part of that market that you want to be really good at. So when I came into Hubscale, previously my top fees were probably 20k at best. That was still working like sometimes heads of roles, and sometimes the director roles in the UK, just by nature of UK salaries, so far you can go right. Then when you're moving into that US model and moving into a market where it is possible, and you know it's there, it's then working really hard at that piece of the market, so I knew I wanted to take some leadership, I knew I wanted it to be in cyber, I knew I wanted it to be in more in the enterprise space, and then it's just all about you know being in that market consistently, and nothing really changes drastically from the recruitment process. The big sort of turning point for me though was learning how you pitch retainers, learning how you actually walk in a room with senior decision makers, and make sure you speak in the same language of the people that are doing that work, because that was a big differentiator where I knew I could place these individuals, I'd you know placing a head of director in the UK to placing a VP in America, there was massive differences between the two, even the processes sometimes very similar, but actually there's a level of expectation that comes from the CEO of 100 million ARR business around how you actually conduct yourself and how you do that, and what you're pitching to them, if the pitch is you know hey I've got a couple of CVs, I'd love to put them in front of you, you know what are you looking for, let me go out there, have a look, see what I can find and I'll come back to you. It's a very different pitch to you you know, going in for a retained search, explaining the different avenues of how the Aberdeen search works, what are they gained from it, from a knowledge and an insights perspective, what access to they get, you know, what advice and guidance do they get around how they actually conduct the process, who should be involved in the process. I'm also really spending the time to deeply understand their business and actually what is the outcome of the hire? One of the things that I went on a bit of a journey on was to understand actually when you're hiring a CRO or a CEO, like it's not just the hire, like this is somebody that they're potentially hiring to take the business to an acquisition or do a complete turnaround, maybe it's a failing business and they go look we need someone to turn this around or our shareholders are going to finish us, like we're in big trouble. So understanding the impact of the hire at that level was more important than actually the process sometimes because it helped you number one define who you were looking for and the type of candidate but it helped you build credibility with the person that effectively was trying to retain you and I never ever really did that when I was in that kind of more individual contributor role in my previous business, it was more just about the hire, what are you looking for? It's almost like, you know, ticking off a bit of a shop in this, you know, what are you looking for? But yeah, I'll go through it, okay, I'll run to the supermarket, I'll try and find you that thing. Come back, hey look, you know, here's what you looked for and then, you know, sometimes it's successful sometimes it's not, you know, but like, you know, one of the things we've done and got here, well, with training is helping them understand the impact of the hires. If somebody's coming to you and they want to hire 40 people or 50 people, why? That's an insane amount I need to spend and it's a insane amount of hiring to do, like truly understanding and then you can really work with them on the best solution for their business and find the right kind of person for that hire. But actually going a bit deeper than just the high level recruitment thing was a big different shader and it's allowing me to win more and more with those big searches because now you will trust within people that are in very high stress, you know, very, you know, demanding roles that actually need to trust that they can trust you to execute and we've got customers where they're privately backed and we've put eight or nine executive leaders into those companies, you know, just constant repeat business because we built that level of trust within where they go, you get asked, you know the journey, you know what the end point is for you, you know where we're trying to get to and when we're trying to get that by. So we trust you to kind of keep finding us the right strategic leaders for those different points in our business journey and it kind of comes back to against that thing of being the niche doesn't it, you know, where if you build the credibility, you build trust and you'll get that repeat business back in into your desk as well. So interesting just I'm sure it's more complex than just asking why but I'm sure that is a big just the way you friend that was super interesting because I'm guessing there's so many recruiters that stick to that transactional way of selling and they're not really understanding the business, the pain points and the reasons why as you mentioned. Did you did you pick that up just through trial and error column or was that, it was like a framework that that hubs go gave you or how did you pick that up? So curious to. So we train everybody who works for us on spin and medic. So the real world sales methodologies medic has been an absolute game changer for us as a business and even for our digital consultants because it allows them to really benchmark what they know about the sale, the sales process that going through because at the end of the recruitment of sales, you can run a pitch for a CEO, retain search through medic and it will tell you really clearly actually, I don't know who the economic buyer is here. I don't know the person who's going to sign off this retain contract. I don't really understand their decision criteria. What are they weighing me up against or who's my competition maybe? Is it me versus three or four other companies here? Who are those companies and how do I make myself stand out or be different to those other companies? And all of a sudden you get this kind of layer and understanding behind everything you're doing and then it makes everything more intentional. A lot of recruiters get stuck between this thing within spin called continuation versus advancement and we have it still now and there'll be people who listen to this that will resonate where constantly telling they're managing that deal is going to come in. You constantly convince that that deal is going to happen and when you look back at that deal and you go well I met the head of IT tell me that he wanted to hire a software engineer and then we're capturing up next week so I'll chat again and then you do that and then he goes you know tells you a couple of things you want to hear and the following week you catch up with him again. That's a continuation. You're just continually having the same conversation over again. You're not moving that process any closer to becoming a deal and what you're actually looking for is in the advancement which in the flip side would be I've met this head of IT looking for a software engineer. He's about to introduce me to the CFO because it's the CFO that signs off on this high because it's coming out of his budget. So next week I'll meet in the CFO and you meet the CFO. You have a great call. You actually agree your commercials and he goes right the next step is I need to get you plugged into HR because we've got a CIO you know we've got a system called Ashby and all the CVs has to go on Ashby. You've had another advancement in your sales process. Having advancements gets you one step closer to doing the deal every single time versus a continuation where you just kind of meet in the same higher manager. The same people could be a champion but you meet in the same person over and over again it doesn't take you any closer to actually getting that deal done. When you start framing your business development in that way it helps you really understand actually am I moving my desk forward or am I just lying to myself and we've all been there you know. I still do it now. I'll meet somebody and I'll be super excited about a pitch maybe or a proposal that we've put out for work and then you know we'll sit down with the team we'll run if we're medic and they'll go you haven't got any of the economic barriers and I'll go yeah that shit. You know that you can hold yourself honest when you when you're doing stuff like my kind of key thing is like it's not necessarily about having to go away and do 100k fees like you can be hugely successful in any market you're in doing 5k fees 10k fees but I think actually the process behind how you're doing it the how you think about it is actually really important now especially in recruitment where go and learn spin there's an amazing book on it um spin-stelling you know go and read that but that because incredible learn medic you know you can jump on YouTube there's tons of books on it but go and understand medic and how that actually works from a sales perspective because you'll see your deals in recruitment so differently and then you go from maybe doing one to two deals a month to three and fours and you know that that could double your buildings overnight by just the quality of where you're spending your time rather than spending four weeks trying to get a deal overland that's never going to come over line you could park it and go that's not going to happen because he's not willing to introduce me to the key economic buyer for this but actually I've got something over here that is moving forward and actually is potentially gonna land so I'll focus on that and I've also now freed up a bit time to do more bd so how you frame your desk and how your operating desk can change overnight and um even the guys now like you know we'll we'll do forecast it forecast calls on the Thursday and you know I'll look at a deal and maybe I want to forecast it and the guys like nope not forecasting it don't know the competition is so we're not forecasting that yeah and even they hold as a leasing they hold us to account because they get a higher charge of my deal as I know what's coming in and um and the performances have gone through the roof internally here because of how they critique their own desk as well. Hmm really interesting um I've heard medic there's so many times but I I embarrassingly have never used it and I don't know the individual elements calum could you give us a really quick crash course of medic and how it works. Oh now you put me on the spot so I heard that in the background so okay or a resource in maybe or just a resource perhaps anything that might help people to alarm about it. I'll run through it but like we've got m which is metrics so what is it they're trying to achieve? Various or you're going there you're almost like almost doing a situation play me what is it we are trying to get out of this ideally is probably make a higher and you find out what they can hire. Economic buy-up so fundamentally that is the personal persons that are going to sign off on the deal. Hmm it's not always one person that's really really important that some state people make all the time is they're just assuming it's the hiring manager it's very rarely the hiring manager it's usually something behind the scenes. If you look at me if I want to make a higher in hub scale you know I'm a decision maker I will make that higher but I still probably have to speak to Sam and Elliott you know our FD and RCO about that and they're still going to have to have ultimately the final signing decision on whether we do make the higher with the week done right so if you're a reptile wreck and you you know you want to make highs through me you're probably after the figure out who my economic buyers are to make that happen at some point. You're the first D which is decision criteria so what is the criteria they are assessing you against you know it could be many different things from price to case studies from customer if it could be anything you know that's really where you've got a deep dive and understand that the criteria you've got decision process so fundamentally how do we get from where we are now on this call to you guys paying the $150,000 to make a higher for you who's involved why they involved what do we have to do to get there, you know. that comes in a little bit around the continuation versus advancement piece. Eye is the most important one, which is identifying pain. So pain, it's where you work out why we even have in this conversation, you know, and it's often there's a recruiter where you can leverage your sales technique and maybe get a higher percentage. Somebody comes in and they go, "Look, I have to make this high by the end of September." And some recruiter will go, "Okay, brilliant. That's good to know." Other recruiter will go, "Why? What happens if you don't make the higher? What impact does that have on you?" And then you'll unravel this journey of pain. And my steer here is, nobody will ever tell you their pain straight away. You have to fight for it. Sometimes it takes a couple of calls, but we're all human. We've all egos. No one's going to tell you their deepest and darkest secrets on their first call. But it's really important you spend time there to work out about pain piece. Because that's the thing that's probably going to help you sell it and get it over the line. And the first C is then champions. So champions are really important, like champions are the people that probably get in you in the room in the first place. You know, if you spend a bit of time speaking to a head of IT and you know, you build a great relationship, they become a bit of a champion for you. But there is a difference between a champion and a coach. A coach is someone you have a warm, pleasant, lovely relationship with. They really like you. They'll take it time. They'll probably take a call. A champion is someone who advocates for you when you're not in the room. So when they're in a board meeting and the CFO says we need to hire, you know, a couple or more software engineers. Does the head of IT turn around and go, "I know a person who could be brilliant for that. We should call this person and we'll get them involved in this hiring process." So your champions are really important. Recruits make a lot of mistakes here because we're all love warm and fluffy conversations. We like the easy conversations and they always miss mark than champions and their coaches. I'm really important when you get good at this. Someone who is actually a champion for you could become a coach in a process because they're lack of ability to influence the decision. So we've got a scenario where somebody's a champion for one of our consultants in every aspect of what they do, but they're currently pitching for a piece of work that he's not actually involved in. So he's not been that helpful for us in terms of moving the deal forward and he's become a coach and trying to then talk that consultant through that journey of actually their coach. He's a champion. He's the one we loads of work before and in this process specifically he's a coach. So that's really important to recruit us instead. Then the final see is competition. So who's going to ruin your day? Who's going to ruin your week? Who's going to make you look like an idiot in front of your manager when you've already forecasted the deal and then you realize, "Shit, it's not coming in." So the competition is the other recruiters, it's the other agencies, it's where who else could come in who's presentially pitching for this piece of work. But it's really important when you define and you identify your competition, it's not just the other agency and it's understanding what's the relationship with the agency because all you want to find out there is is like, actually our competition is an agency that's done nine searches for the CHRO. That's a big threat because we've never worked, I've never met the CHRO so that's a problem. It's time to understand not just who the competition is but their level of influence within the company and some of that comes back to your champion, can you get that information from them or they tell you that? And if you run through all of them medic and you've got all of it uncovered, all of it really well defined, you can tackle the problems that you see firsthand, you can work on the gaps that you've probably naturally got because you should have gaps because you're never going to get all of that from one call and then you can work on it and really push forward and you can go, "Hey look, I know you've got another agency that's worked with the CHRO our own nine times but you know what's really important here? Well actually speed, it's pace of execution and we need a specialist, well we only do cyber and we've got people we can probably put in front of you within a 24-hour period." So the other agency are just a generalist search firm. I know I put you on the spot there, Calum, but you gave a great answer so well done, yeah fantastic. I recommend everyone listening to, I'm going to do it myself, do some more research into spin and medic because it sounds like they're really useful tools to snel more effectively. We're coming towards the end of the pod, Calum. Thank you so much, Matt, this has been awesome. Are there any final thoughts or lessons or things that we haven't asked you about that you might feel like adding to add value to the audience? Come and join Hubscale, there you go. Yeah, awesome. Is there anything you want to say about Hubscale or anything to give yourself a plug? No, no, we don't need to apply, it's all good, but no, I think it's been awesome, it's been a great chat and I think my kind of takeaway and the thing for the audience would be a little bit more around, spend a bit more time really mastering your craft. There's an amazing career you can have in recruitment, I've been doing this 11 years now and when the biggest transaction for me would probably happen for five years or even more, I finally decided actually this can be a career, this can be an incredible career so start taking it a bit more seriously. Go and read a few books, go and learn things you've not learned before and try and become an actual master of your craft because if you can, if you're doing incredible things, but get yourself in the right environment and to plug up scale, you are a product to your environment and look around, you're the business that you're in. Seriously, some incredible businesses out there, but you will become the product of the average and if you want to go out there and you want to achieve five, six, seven, eight, hundred K year buildings, if it isn't happening in the environment that you're in, then it's important that you make that change and you look for an environment that can provide you that. And then also, just really taking the time to focus on actually what my strengths, what my good at doubling down at them and obviously talk a lot about BD on the podcast, but if you are good at BD and that is your thing, go away and obsess at it, become obsessed with business development, become obsessed would be in the best version of it because there's not a single found or a CEO recruitment that doesn't need somebody who's exceptional business development. And if you come into business and we've got a couple of examples here, they're so good at BD, but they do not want to fill the jobs that they pull. They couldn't think of any worse, right? That is a problem I would love to, I love solving that problem. Keep bringing the work in and we'll keep getting it filled, but just obsess. And then on the other side, we've got delivery consultants that couldn't think of anything worse than BD, but they're obsessed with actual delivery. And I do think I am a big believer that in this market, you don't have to do everything the best. Find your thing, be exceptional at it and really go and make it happen, but invest the time and make yourself the very best in the matter of what you do. Brilliant, final message, Callum. Thank you so much for coming on today, may really, really enjoy it. And I'm sure the audience got a ton of value, so thank you so much. It's a very pleasure. Thanks for having me, guys. Hey guys, thanks for tuning in to this episode. If you enjoyed it, please don't forget to subscribe on YouTube and Spotify. Tune in for another episode next week, and we look forward to seeing you again very soon. Peace and love.