I Quit My Dream Job to Take an "Adult Gap Year" ft. Julia Fei (Sr. Data Scientist at Notion)

Do you think data science is one of the first jobs to go because of AI? I think it's just going to transform into looking like something different. At Notion, DS's are now being prompted to build more tools. And a lot of the traditional DS work can definitely be done a lot faster. If someone is contemplating quitting, how would you advise them to navigate that feeling? I wish we had more courage to take bigger risks and just know that stability is actually a scam. If I were here today, understand how to use AI, but don't really optimize for it. I think you should optimize for your foundations. AI is a tool to support you, but you shouldn't rely on it. Yes, you have to know. As a data scientist, who bullies you more? The PMs, engineers, or execs? Oh, the PMs. Office drama. Welcome to Office drama. Worry me with people obsessed with their work, hear about their career journeys, their lessons learned, and the inner drama behind their biggest breakthroughs. I'm your host, Chloe Shee. And today in the office or my living room, we have the one, the only Julia. Julia is one of the most well-known tech girlies in the scene. She has over 200,000 followers on social media. She's worked as a data scientist as Spotify and At Notion. She's known for vlogging her life in New York City as well as working in tech in her 20s. And she's going through one of her biggest existential plot twists in her career. What is that, Julia? I just left my job and I'm going on an adult gap year. We're going to break that down today. I'm so happy to have you here. Julia comes all the way from New York. So she's here in LA just visiting for the day. We've known each other for quite some time. For a long time. But we didn't really meet until 2023 in person, I believe. Oh, really? Yeah. Why do I feel like I've known you for so long? Exhibit A. Wow. [laughs] For the very first year. Wow, that's crazy. No, but I feel like we followed each other before that. That's why it's just like the whole internet friend kind of thing. I think it happened during the pandemic because when did you start content? During the pandemic. Yeah, yeah. So it's not like I could have traveled there and to meet you, you beauty queen. Yeah, but the pandemic just felt like such a long time ago, so. I know. My perception of time is so weird. I know. I think I just commented on your YouTube videos or something like that. I think one time you commented on one and I was like, "Oh, do you notice me?" Oh, no, no. Do you notice I exist? No, no. I'm so excited to finally get a chat with you. It's awesome to meet another tech guru who kind of gets it. And it's hard to do both as a content creator and working in tech. And you have to preserve your personal brand at work. Yeah, that has been hard. Definitely a lot to like, juggle at all times. First of all, I love your content, your vlogs. You did a lot of New York's tour and like living situations. And I think that it's hard to be a lifestyle girl and you just did it right. Like the comfort, the softness. I aspire to create content like you and make visuals like you do. And then I was like, man, it's too hard for me. No, oh my gosh. And then Chloe went on her own journey and became such like a big creator and just like a pioneer in our current like creator space. So I look up to you. I look up to you. Mitchell, Mitchell. So you're at notion or you were at notion. I wasn't. What is notion? What did you do there? What projects were you on? Notion is in all in one place productivity tool. So you can think of like Google Docs, Excel, any like productivity suite that you use in one. Plus these days we're very AI forward. So we have notion AI, notion agent and things like that. At notion, I was a senior data scientist and I primarily worked on growth. The summary is how do we get people to pay for notion? Hmm, it's a good growth on monetization. Growth specifically on monetization and so I worked on pay walls. I worked on upsells, upsells, trials, different like mechanisms to get people into the experience. Good enough until they like it enough and they're like, oh, I want to purchase this. But I think it was a really tough problem to work on because we give away so much for free. Yeah. notion got big based off of single player usage. It still is really big for academia, for students, for solo entrepreneurs, for creators, and just people like working by themselves. But it's actually a really powerful tool for just teams in general. And I think just trying to build that B2B sauce business has been really interesting. So you're B2B monetization. B2B monetization, yeah. So onboarding companies, yes, and like seats. So I worked on ad monetization at Spotify. So just like building out and understanding what new ad placements we can create to sell ad space for advertisers on Spotify free. So I think just my entire career has been around helping these companies make money. The switch from ads B2C was a bit more fluid into B2B SaaS monetization. Anything you've learned about B2B monetization that you'll carry forward into your life. Look, yeah, I think this is where the money's at. Yeah, way more than consumer. Yeah, way more than as money. Way more. The entire reason why I interviewed for notion and when I was going through my job search, I only had like 10 to 15 companies that I applied for over six months. I was very, very picky because personally for me, I'm someone that I don't think I lose interest very fast, but it's hard for me to really like invest and feel interested in something. So once I have something I like, I'm like all 100% in for it, and I think notion was one of the only companies where I'm like, okay, I really like this company. But I'm looking at it in a single player lens. Like, I love it for organizing my own thoughts, my journals, my YouTube. I like, log my life on there, my five, 10-year plans on there. But then when I entered the company, it was so be-to-be focus. And I think I was like pretty surprised. I learned so many great things there. But for be-to-be businesses specifically, it's just like, okay, I'm not the primary driver of their revenue. I'm actually a very, very small fraction. When you went into notion, what did you think your work would be and how did your week-to-week change? Honestly, I think I had a good understanding of what the work is. When I interviewed, I actually was interviewing for a marketing data scientist position, a more top of funnel, like email marketing, or like website marketing, things like that. But then after the first hiring manager call, they actually liked me, but I was just like, I don't think I'm going to thrive in this specific realm. I think at a certain point in your career, when you get more senior, you have to really understand what your strengths are. And I think what has helped me throughout sense being aware of this in early days in college, until now is really figuring out what you're good at and a balance of what you like. And then moving forward with that. So I just knew that even though there are tools in the data science toolkit that are a little bit more universal, I wanted to be more of an expert in money and experimentation and these things. And so I'm just like, I don't actually think this would be a good team fit for me to come on. And especially as a senior role where you'll have to mentor and guide like younger folks, I just didn't feel like as confident if I were to be in a realm that I was more comfortable with. So I told them, I actually don't like this team. Do you have any other teams? Yeah. And then they're like, no. No, actually they're like, I think the recruiter was just very impressed by like how assured I was about what I wanted. I think when I was job searching in between Spotify and Notion, I went in with the mindset of like, I'm worth this much. I want this. And I'm not going to like find a friend. Yeah, I'm not going to compromise for anything less. And I think just going in with that like confidence, give me so much leverage. Hell yeah. Love that. Yeah. So then I told them I was like, I love this company, but I don't want to be doing this. Is there anything else? And then a week later they came back and they're like, there is this one position. Like do you want to continue with the interview loop? Because it looks the same. Yeah. And then we'll give you like a hiring manager to you at the end. Since like, I think that hiring manager interview is just like the first pass. Yeah. I think they know I can do the thing. It's just like, I didn't want to be on this team. Mmm. That makes sense. Yeah. And then when you went into Notion, how did you want you to start your job at the company that was different from when you were at Spotify? Yeah. What was new, Julia? New Notion, Julia. We're like, okay, she's going to be like this. It's going to be different than Spotify. Yeah. Oh my gosh. I had this whole image that I wanted to recreate for myself. It's kind of like starting college, right? Or like any time you start a new job, I think you have a vision of like, I want to be this kind of person here where no one really knows me. And at Spotify, since I start as an intern and I transition into a full-time role onto the same team, I think some people still viewed me as like, oh, she like just graduated college or like, she's still kind of young. They know how to grow up. They're under 20s already. Yeah. Yeah. And I felt like I had to overcompensate and overwork so much for people to just get rid of that thought or that bias against me. Even though I was like doing very good like mid-level to senior work at Spotify, I felt like I had to do even more to prove to everyone that like, I'm actually like, not your intern anymore. I'm actually like producing like very high-level work. So when I transition to notion, well, a big reason why I did leave Spotify too is that I wanted some more career progression and movement. And at my last role at Spotify, I was mentoring like two more associate data scientists. so I was leading a couple of different work streams. And I think we were going through a very tough time in tech, like, mass layoffs. Yeah, and just, am I the pace of mass layoffs? - No, wow. - I just empathized so much. I think when I was like, "Hey, I should get promoted. I'm doing so much." - And they were like, "No, we're undermate layoffs." - Yes, that. And then, like you, I also saw so many of like, my coworkers get laid off for no apparent reason. I was just so angry. I think that was also like, "Hey, there's no community, there's no progression." Like, "Why am I here?" - She's an empath. - I am an empath, yeah. I was feeling so hard. I was like, "What is this? Where's the culture? Where's like the merit for being here and working so hard?" But anyways, so for my next role, I was aiming for a more lateral move into a senior position, which is what I got. And then, when I got there, I was like, "I'm gonna be serious. I'm gonna be like, yep, put together. I'm gonna sound like a senior data scientist, 'cause I think also a lot of feedback that I got at my last role. It's just like, "Oh, like you're young. Like, you'll still have so much time to like get promoted." That was coming from my old manager who was also like, a woman in tact, which is like, so hard. - How does it be around people? - It is, yeah. And that was actually really hard for me to digest, because I know how hard she worked to get there. I think she was probably projecting a little bit where it's just like, she went through it. And therefore, she's gonna pull up the ladder and be like, "You need a suffer the way I did, too." There's no way you can accelerate him with an eye. - 100%, I hate that. - It took her a long time to get to a senior and then get to transfer to being over a manager. And I think she was just like, "You're so young. You have so much time. Just focus on your work." - My biggest peeve. - Yeah. So, no shame when I joined, I was like, "I'm gonna be a serious gal, and I'm gonna make no friends." So, for the first, no friends, Julia. - Yeah, no friends, no friends. For the first six months, I was like, "No one talked to me, I don't wanna make any friends." 'Cause I know once I open my mouth, I'm just gonna sound like this Jensy Millennial girl. - Very friendly. - Yeah, very friendly. - Very close girl. I'm just like, I talk like this, you know? - Very excited. - And I also dress very cute, but also up to date. I'm trendy. But also at Notion, everyone dresses very well. - Yeah, it's like very designed forward. - It is, yeah, actually, yeah. 'Cause you've been to the office very. - Oh, yeah, I love the designed furniture. - Are we at the sink couch? - Yes, yeah. Chloe's also very designed forward. - I love. - But yeah, I just didn't want anyone to know like the fun side of me. 'Cause in my head, I think I'm over-correcting. - Yeah. - And I wanna be viewed upon as like a very professional, like senior person. So, I've had no friends for the first couple of months. And then somehow, I think just the culture, Notion's very great, and everyone's super friendly, and the office is really small, especially in New York. And so, everyone just kept wanting to be my friend. Also, I was a creator on the side. It's like the double life stuff. - That's papy there. - Well, I just like assume that no one knows, but everyone knew. - Everyone? - A lot of people do. - Huh. - I mean, some of them didn't reveal themselves until I told them I was leaving. - They did her end, dude. - Like, what are you doing? Like, are you gonna be a content creator, and I was like, how do you know? - Also, I think once I started making friends, they came out there, like, actually know who you are. I was like, oh, what? So, I think I was trying to protect like, one, like, just me, naturally who I am, which is, I'm not a very serious person. Actually, I think I'm low-key, I'm sometimes serious, but I'm also like, very fun, and very girly, and very young energy. And then two, like, I'm always scared if people figured out that I'm a content creator. Once people know that you're a content creator, it's worth they think that you're not serious about your career. - Exactly. Because of that, too, I also overcome, say it work. I overcomensate for so many different reasons for being a woman, for being someone that looks very young, that kind of talks a little younger, that dresses a little younger, and then the third part is for being a content creator, and for being scared that, like, people on the internet, one day will say, like, oh, she's not actually doing work at work. Have you ever had HR flag you? - Oh, it's a butterfly. But they were very supportive at that time. - Oh, okay. - It was actually a year before I left. We were having such a difficult time hiring, because remember, like, the tech bubble, like, it grew, grew, grew, and then it bursted. This was, like, in the growing phase, where they're like, we're having such a hard time hiring people, because Spotify is a Swedish company, and they really value work-life balance, culture, fun, and just building, like, a really cool product. But the pay wasn't as competitive as other, like, top tech companies. And it just comes from, like, their, just identity as a Swedish company, great benefits all around, such a great place, actually. But I think it depends on what you value. So they saw my day-in-the-life video, 'cause it blew up. It had, like, I don't know how many views it has now, like, maybe a million, a little bit short of that. But then they're like, they put a meeting on my calendar, and then I just hopped on, there was no context, and they're like, so we saw your video. And I was like, oh, okay, this was PR, public relations. - Oh, yeah. - Okay. - And they're like, if this was like a Spotify branded video, like, would you still say the same thing at, like, time 505, you said, you slept at 3am to edit your video, and then you went to work, and you got in at work at 10. Like, would you still have set that? I was like, yeah, 'cause like, I don't think, like, people here care as long as I get my work done. They're like, great. That's exactly what we want. Like, we want to resonate, like, you have a great work life balance here. Like, people are happy, and I think they're trying to take like, a different standpoint, like, just marketing. So I think at that point, like, I was like, really resonating with their brand. - Okay. - Of, like, someone who really enjoys working there and has life outside. - Life, yeah. And it was very true. - That's fast. - Up until, like, the bulb bursted, and then everyone was working really hard, and then there was a lot of survivor skills, and then, yeah, just career progressions were just a little bit more hazy. And you wanted to make sure that didn't happen to you at Notion. - I think at Notion, it was more of, like, I want to be respected for my work. - Yeah. - I think your personal branding and how you present yourself at work goes hand in hand with, like, be work that you do. It's actually one of, like, the biggest lessons I've learned throughout my corporate career is just, like, no matter how much good work you do, it's how you present it and how you work at it. - Yeah. - Yeah. How you storytelling, yeah. - People's perceived you. - Oh, to be perceived at work. - Yeah. Yeah. - So, I just wanted people to perceive me as a very, like, polished, professional senior. - Did you achieve it? - I think at a certain point, but then I made friends. (laughs) And then they're all just, like-- - He's too friendly. - And then I started hanging out with, like, all the young and fun, fun people at work. And then, I think, now I'm associated with, like, oh, Julius, like, young and fun. And I was like, "cause I'm not that young." And I shouldn't have that young. - But I'm fun. - Yeah, I am fun. - I'm senior. I'm not like you. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not the same. (laughs) - But I know she and we're all, like, - What do you call it? - The levelling's our enemies. - Yeah. - Like, you don't know anyone's levelling. So, it really is, like, how you're portrayed by other people. - Fascinating. - Yeah. - Were you coming for a promo? - I was not. So, I was trying to be very strategic about it. - 'Cause we had senior. Where do you go from senior principal? - You go to staff. - Staff, that's a big job. - Yeah, so the timeline is usually, like, you stay in associate or, like, entry level for one to two years. And then you're somewhere in this, like, mid-level field for the next, like, I don't know, three to four years. At Spotify, we had a lot of mid-level, like, levels. So, it's, like, associate DS1, DS2, DS3. I don't know how it is today, yeah. But quite a lot of different segments in the mid-level. Then you jump to senior and then senior to staff. It's just, like, I don't know what you have to do. You have to jump through hoops to get to staff. I think you have to be very strategic about when you want to sprint. And when you want to chill. And so I think once you get a promotion or once you achieve the next step, it's not like you can do nothing, or else you're gonna get fired. But you should be very mindful of when you should rest and chill and enjoy for a little bit. So I was kind of in that phase 'cause I knew that the next promotion wasn't gonna come for a while. - Yeah, it's gonna be, like, a sprinting marathon. - Yeah. - It's gonna be hard. - So you're a senior data scientist at Notion. You're a full-time creator on YouTube. You're in a master's program, and you're an ENFJ Scorpio. Are you doing this to pay your rent in New York or to take revenge on a childhood bully? - Mmm, the Scorpio part. - The Scorpio part. Honestly, I think I do a lot for my parents' validation. - Yeah. - It's the Asian immigrant child of you. - It is, it is. And I know my parents love me, but I do think they have very high expectations of me as well. - I don't know. I think it's also the middle child in me too, where growing up, I just feel like I had to work a lot for people's attention and validation. So I think it has projected onto my professional career as well. - What is your heritage? I am half Chinese and half Vietnamese. - And where did you grow up? - I grew up here in there, but primarily in New York. - And your parents are in New York? - My parents are in New York, but they are currently retired in Asia. - Oh. - Yeah, so they've been there for the past couple of years. So yeah, middle child syndrome. - It is middle child syndrome. You also have three siblings, right? But you're the oldest. - I'm the oldest. - You have your own problems. - Yeah. (laughing) - You're really hard. I've always known you to work hard. I can't believe you're doing a master's. How are you alive? - It's been interesting because now that I'm out of my job, I'm highly questioning why I'm also doing my master's. - How much time do you have left? - I have three more classes. - Not too bad. - It's not bad, but it's been almost two years now. I've been taking it very slowly. I'm doing a master's in data science. - Where at? [BLANK_AUDIO] Berkeley dude and you're a youtube creator not a short for like you and you keep a short form yeah youtube is like next level type of editing yeah, but I think with YouTube I still kind of see it as like a hobby before I quit my job very serious hobby. Yeah, it is a very serious hobby But I don't know it's like clockwork for me where like I've built routines and systems around and like time to vlog Or it's just like a time to edit and sometimes there are periods where I'm like, oh, I don't really want to do this Or like I'm gonna slow down on it But I had a lot of flexibility to do it when I wanted to which has been nice I want to talk about the quitting process. Yeah, because that's a big thing I think when you left Spotify that was a huge deal in the tech ecosystem You were also very well known for going through a super rough interview process You document in that entire journey because getting a job is really hard especially if you don't want to run into the same problem As you did before you don't want to run from one place just to fall into the same trap in the other. Yeah, so very good on you for that and When you talked about quitting Spotify. I think you were being like overwork like 10-14 hours and On one of the hardest projects with the only DS in that organization And there was no clear upward mobility Mm-hmm. Was that like a summer case at notion for you or what what brought you to this decision? Did you know you're gonna quit this year? I thought you want to be in here for a really long time Is it just you two the sentiment behind quitting last time in this time are so different so different Growth. Yeah, exactly. I think yeah, everything that you said was correct where I think I left my last job because I was overworked No clear career progression and then I thought that I would be more valued and I can find another job where I Equally liked as much. I just felt like at that point in time. I still had more to grow In terms of my corporate 9 to 5 career this time around it's interesting because I forgot that I was not supposed to be here for the long term I told myself like after this I am going to have the title and another job on my resume and another Great tech company and afterwards I will have this stability and confidence to go and do my own thing So this was like kind of like the last thing that I needed to check off before I can go off on my own adventure And I actually was not going to quit. There are just a lot of Organizational changes at the end of last year that kind of like woke me up It was just like hey wake up Julia and then I was like oh shit I was not supposed to stay here for a long time and it kind of made me realize like hey you were supposed to like This was a pit stop and then you're supposed to go do this thing. Did you forget? I was like oh shit. I forgot Yeah, and then you forgot and you remember it in December I remembered in November November. It's been a while. Yeah. Okay. And then I was just quietly assessing for the past four to five months What was in that assessment? What was your quitting decision framework? Yeah, I was just I was so comfortable at notion like everything's great I have a really good product team. I love my PM It is so hard for me to say that I love my PM. Yeah, what she said I had a little bit more of a difficult time with my first PM at notion because we had different working styles But then I got a new PM last summer and the synergy is like insane and We're like going to be friends IRL like after this Yeah, but as a product data scientist like my main stakeholder is my PM So I think there's quite like this this dynamic right here But it's like a lot of checks and balances like I talked to my PM basically throughout the entire work day They just ping me I ping them back like I'm there to support them and they're here to support me And so it's one of the most important relationships. I love my engineers DS at notion is is great as well There was nothing like wrong other than I think I just got so comfortable and I forgot like my personal growth Ambitions yeah outside of this and I think it was so scary because I was comfortable and I was just like I can be here Forever if I don't like push myself to do something else. So why now? Why March? Well, it took from November to March from the first thought of reminding you like oh, yeah, that's right. This was my mission and You didn't do it in the new year. You did it. Yeah. I had a long vacation plan to go home to see my parents because they live in Asia now so during that trip I was Talking a lot to my dad and I talked to him a lot about my careers and just my life in general just like Figuring out what I wanted to do with next and then I came back in January and I thought I was gonna Put in my two weeks right away, but then AI stuff hit see yeah, yeah, and I go to SF once a quarter for work. So I'm always there and I think AI has been slowly creeping up and then all of a sudden just hit me like shit hit the fan like very immediately We've been prepped at notion like I think the whole AI talk started sometime May or June of last year And then at notion. They're like try to use AI. I don't know what that really meant But then when I came back all of a sudden we were like really forced to use AI like everyone's just like asking Claude building out skills We are also very AI forward. We built AI products too. So like notion AI and agents and things like that I think notion is in the center of like SF tech high growth startup AI world Yeah, and I was scared so I came back. I'm a I'm a heavy J So I'm just like, okay, I thought through everything. Happy day But then I'm just like okay now now I'm put in this position where I thought I made a decision I come back I am so lost like everything's moving so fast everything's changing so fast Pause and let me like take a breather and assess and like is this still the right thing to do so it took me Two and a half more months to come to this decision. Yeah to like feel really confident about okay This is the right time to leave, but during that time like I was assessing how we were working with AI what like AI looks like in the workplace I tried to like learn a lot of these skills and tools We literally just had a DS off site and all of the talks were about how to use AI and how to build AI tools and What DS looks like in an AI world? Yeah, and so I felt really scared. Oh, what skills have you made? I'm actually really good at using Claude all right now. Yeah Like before I left we also had one week where we did like a hackathon and then I asked my product team I was like what do you guys want? They're like we want a Julia And I was like you guys want a Julia Julia AI so I built them a skill that was just like a data science skill Yeah, so that they can ask them like certain questions or like size different things for their experiments And then just understanding like the pace of work and the new expectations like if one day I were to come back to 9 to 5 which is like such a privilege thing to say by the way Yeah, like this is like the worst thing that can happen, which is not even bad That I would kind of have a sense of like what's going on. It's hard because things are changing so fast I don't even know if like the skills I'm picking up today is going to be relevant in a year if I wish to come back Yeah, so I was just trying to ingest and make like the best decision that I could at that time So it was really scary and then on the opposite side I think what gave me a lot of confidence to do it right now is that I've never felt so enabled as a solo founder To build because of AI do you think data science is one of the first jobs to go with because of AI? I think it's just going to transform into looking like something different So DS has always been a hybrid of PM and engineering in a way it's like slightly more Technical in the weeds than a PM, but definitely not like building the way that engineers do so I think at least what I've seen Notion is like DS is are now being prompted to build more tools like more tooling and a lot of the traditional like DS work can definitely be Automated maybe not automated, but like and I don't want to say replace, but like done a lot faster Yeah, so then it frees up your time to do a lot of other things like I used to spend a lot of my time on experimentation like sizing analysis like opportunity things like that and My work students have just become like so much more efficient with the introduction of AI And I was able to build a skill out of this for my product team to use obviously. There's like a Lot of experience that you need and just like domain expertise that comes with like a human So I think it has to come with like someone that's experienced that has domain expertise in addition to these tools But I do think DS I don't know if DS is going to be first to go I think it's just going to grow into something that's going to be Quite different from what it is today. Yeah, I feel that too if you want to implement in Bivalent as in like yeah It's like scary, but excited also scary, but like everything I learned changes so fast like skills are just recent Yeah, right and then like what the heck notion we're launching like every month. Yeah, no, it's really fast Like it comes out. It's crazy launches the launches happen very fast and then now in addition with AI Like we're working really really really fast and so sometimes I'm like Oh my gosh, I can't keep up, but I think you have to or else you're gonna kind of get left behind That's a scary thing to think I know I think I already feel left behind, but I'm just like it's fine It's not that it's not that deep. It's not that deep. Yeah, we try our best. Yeah, it's a big topic I think that when a company says learn more AI, I also get confused What am I supposed to do? You want me to like prompt more or like ask plot or dbt or Gemini more things like this is what you want So it's nice that they're systematically putting in place like hackathons or off-sites to actually learn Kevin and I've been learning independently, okay, and it's so hard. Yeah, I think it can be very daunting if you don't know where to start So actually in the past like two months before I finalized my decision I was ingesting a lot of that material, but you're right where I think notion really set up their employees to learn it in a very like fluid way. I felt very supported. We have like this AI learning budget as well. I think it's very helpful to be at a company at the epicenter of like AI change. And we're also smaller, so we're more nimble. I think when I talk to my friends who are in larger tech companies, like even the Googles or the Facebooks, it is going to be really hard to hoard everyone together to move faster and like change. It's going to take some time. I do feel like I'm like at the forefront of things and I know what's basically going on. It's like it's nice to be. It is. Going back to quitting, how do your quitting conversation go? It was good. So right now I report into the director of DS and he was very supportive. I think he was as supportive as he can be. I'm not sure if he saw it coming. When I say like I really enjoyed my life at notion, it's very genuine. Like I've made the most friends I've ever made at work. Which is like so. Yeah, but it's so drastic from what I just told you before. I want no friends. I've had, I have so many friends like at my birthday party this year, like I've invited like 15 or 20 co-workers, which is like insane. And my sisters were like, who are these people? Like these are my co-workers. Like I never thought I'd have co-worker friends at this level. Yeah. I was paid while I was fed while like everything about it was good. I was learning so much. So the conversation went as well as it could have been. And then I started to tell my team and I think everyone was a little bit surprised and a little bit confused. But I just had other wants that I wanted that. I don't think being in a 9 to 5 would give me at this point in time. Did they try to get you to stay? No, they didn't. I think at the end they're just like, okay, if things don't work out in a year, reach back up. And I was like, okay. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. My director is like very good. He's also very well known in the industry as, yeah, just someone who's like a really good data leader. He came from Slack and then I think people just move with him. Slack is very data forward. Yeah. But I think it's like, as a good leader, you know, like you're a good leader when people kind of follow you because they like, like working for you. And I really understand why. Oh. That's amazing. Yeah. Did he ask you why or what your plan was? Yeah. It's basically said that it's truthful. I mean, I'm turning the decade at the end of the year, which is crazy. It's crazy. Thank you. Yeah. And a lot of things had to align for me to like be able to make this decision, but I wanted to take about on myself. I didn't really go into it too much, but I just said, I'm working on some side projects and I also want to move to Asia for a little bit. Oh. Yeah. I didn't tell you this. Yeah, oh, my God. So I said I just wanted to have the opportunity to be a bit more nomadic and live in different places and work on my side projects and I kind of left it at that. He's also a little older and I think he was trying to be really respectful. But he did say like, he didn't go on a career break himself or a sabbatical. It's one of those things where it's like, if you went through it, you couldn't kind of understand. Yeah. But he thinks he was trying to empathize, but he's like seeing like, he is like kind of like a dad. He's like, I respect you, but I can't like really understand, but like, what did you want to work? Yeah. But like, I wish you the best and like, reach out to me if you need anything. And I think that's like, it's kind of like telling your dad, you know? So like, yeah. And I think old, I don't want to be agist, but like, yeah, your older co-worker sometimes will look upon you. Like, hmm, I never did that. Yeah. But I want to be supportive. Yeah. What can I say to be supportive? Yeah. Yeah. Just like, no, that I'm here. But go do your thing. I don't really have any advice for you. But like, come back if you want. Oh, I mean, this guy. He seems so adorable. He seems really nice. Yeah. So how do you feel now that you quit? I feel terrified. Oh. But I also feel really excited. I think it's like, like, how we feel about AI, like, oh my gosh, like I'm scared. But AI. Yeah. But the opportunities are like endless, right now. So it's whatever I want. I'm sure you were really scared and terrified when you went on your little-- Oh, yeah, for sure. --on a little journey. But then also, I see like so many of my friends, like, kind of take the sleep of faith. Like you included. And whether or not it works out, I think, at the end of the day, it's more of like, I did this thing. And then there's always a story to tell. There's always a lesson to be learned. And then more often than not, I think, Karen, like, I see you and I know how hard you work. And I know like, your work ethics and ambition and intelligence. And then it will work out somehow. It's like, I talked to my therapist a lot about this, but she's just like, I know you. And even if you don't go 100% of the way, like, you'll make it somewhere. And then you have to assess, like, is this enough for you? Yeah. Yeah. But it's never going to be like, you're going to feel completely like you're not going to move anywhere. You know? You just have to like, really reflect on who you are and just even like taking a risk on yourself. You need to know yourself. What? Guard rails. Are you putting in place? What are you going to absolutely avoid? I think definitely it's a time limit, especially with how fast things are moving today. I think first mover's advantage is like, obviously important, but like, I don't even know if I have that anymore with the product that I'm trying to build. But it's really like things are getting built so fast with AI, I think speed is definitely a thing. And if I don't get a signal of like, the thing is working by 12 months, then I need to reassess. But if I get some kind of signal, even if it's not fully the way there, then I can invest another six months in all the six months increments. Is that very J of me? Yeah. That's great. Yeah. But basically, checkpoint one is 12 months, checkpoint two is the 18th month mark, and then like six months after that, how many checkpoints until you're like, all right, back to Corbin, I go. Yeah. I don't know. I think you can only plan for so much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So sometimes like, I know I say journal everything and I think in decision trees, but at one point, I need to step away from that, where else you're just going to get boggled down with the, like, semantics of everything. So I've only thought so far as to like 18 months as of right now. That's also kind of where my funds are now. So unless I get more funds, funds as in, like, I'm not drawing out everything. It's just like to a point where I'm comfortable spending. Yeah, it's a mental thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then we'll kind of assess. So maybe I'll check back with you in 12 to 18 months. What's the plan, Julia? Yeah. What's the J plan? There's a couple of things. The first one, primarily, is to spend more time with my parents. So like I mentioned, they live in Asia, and they, one of my biggest regrets that I can't really amend for anymore is like living abroad when my grandparents were still here. So I regret that a lot, and I think time with people you can't ever make up for. So that is my number one. And then we oriented you on. Thank you. Yeah. Thanks. Well, it takes one to no one. So I got brothers. That relationship is different than sisters. It manifests in different ways, you know, but two little boogers in my life. Okay. My sisters, I like little flowers in such a way, but they're also like little cats. We're always like. Oh. Yeah. So not boogers though. But your plan is to hang out with family and your family, I think that's my number and priority. I'll be back and forth between New York and Asia. So I get a move. I've subletted my place. I'll be moving to Asia for the next two to three months. I'll be back in New York for the summer, which is like the best time to be in the summer. And then I'll move back. Well, part of Asia. My parents currently are in Guangzhou. And then they split their time between there and Ho Chi Minh City, because that's where my mom's from. So the main priority is maxing my time with them. So I'm only coming back for the summer because they're coming back for the first time in a couple of years to like get their health checkups to see friends and family. So if they weren't coming back, I would just be staying there. What are you to like with your dad? I am my dad's son. Ah. Yes. I think. If you do tell more, I'm more, please. I mean, I think most Asian parents want sons at least one and you determine you are the one. Well, I'd rather move on. I may just manifest it in that way because we have three daughters for a reason because they kept trying for a son. And at one point, the most like no more, no more. Stop it. Yeah. And then so now my dad. It's like a full on girls dad. I think in retrospect, they're like, thank God we don't have any sons. I think God only have daughters. They're so good to me, but at the same time, I think because he only had daughters, he really allowed us to be like, you could do whatever a man wants to do kind of thing, blah, blah. And then out of my sisters, I am the most like, just like curious, most wrist-taky adventurous. And I don't think these are like necessarily male traits because I think woman can definitely have all those things. But compared to my sisters, I'm just a little bit more like out there and like willing to explore. So I think he like worries about me a lot, but then also at the same time, I've built up like such a life for myself where he's just like, okay, it's Julia's gonna be fine, but sometimes she just like acts up. So, yeah. But then she like, she's gonna be fine, right? But he looks at me and he's just like, okay, you're basically my son because he used to do business. Like we talk a lot about career. We talk a lot about like life. We talk about finances, money, like everything. Like I just, out of my sisters, I'm definitely more career-forwarded and vicious, so that's why he calls me his son. How did they take the news of you quitting? Or how did you tell them? Yeah. We were on the streets of Vietnam just sipping coffee. I really like. What a visual. Yeah. Me and my mom just got a face. - Oh, he's relaxed. - Yeah, but I actually told my dad first, yeah. My dad was just like, "We were having coffee, "my mom was shopping." - Yeah. - And then I was like, "Hey, so I've been thinking, "I've always wanted to go off and do my own thing. "I've told them I've prepped them for this day. "It's not coming out of nowhere. "I'm a very calculated risk kind of person." - Yeah. - Yeah, I just kind of brought her up and he's like, "Oh yeah, let's talk about it." I think he's very supportive. - I think the first time when I quit my job, I was really scared. It was also coming from a place of like, I'm kind of dissatisfied. I'm kind of like, came in a middle place, a little angry, and I think this time he's just like, he's supportive always, but he's just like, make sure it's not coming from an emotional standpoint. And as long as you've thought it through, I trust you, and I'm only here to like, be a sounding board to you, but I can't make these decisions for you. So I prepped them on it. I didn't tell them I was going to do it, or when I was gonna do it. I think I was really just assessing. I said probably within the next six months, I'll have a decision. And then I told them, yeah, when I put them in notice. - And they reacted pretty like, okay. - I think they were prepped, that's why. - You did the prep work. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, I did. And I think last time they were more scared, but this time I think because, yeah, I've taken the rest and I've proven to them. I'm someone that has accountability and grit and resilience. And they're like, okay, we don't know what's happening. This is now your world. It's like, we don't know what's going on in the young-ins world, but we believe in you. And it's kind of like, when you want to invest in a company, I think you have to like the idea somewhat, but then you look at the person meeting. - Yeah, I get a bet on the people. - Yes, exactly. - I mean, they get a bet on you. - Yeah. You also mentioned that AI was scary, yes, but you also realized that AI is giving you a lot of opportunities. What did you mean by that? - So I've been really interested in the creator economy space for a long time. I think we both have everyone. Everyone that's kind of a creator that's also corporate, especially us like we're in tech. I'm always brainstorming new ideas of like how to make things better or build things for people like me. I'm, I think I'm, I don't know. I always like put myself in the consumer shoes. I really only build things that I would want to see in the world. I think that's pretty natural, right? - Okay, yeah, so I've had this idea to build something for the creator economy since I started becoming a creator. So it's been like four years since I had this idea. It's first started off as a paid transparency thing. I think any creator, as you go through the stages of growing as a creator, you always be like, "Oh, what I charge for this." Like, I got my first brand deal. Like, is this like fair? What do I do? What are rights? Like anything along those lines? I tried to get a co-founder. It wasn't very convincing. Like, I don't even think I was convinced to like build this thing. It was kind of like a glass door idea, but then the logistics of it was like quite hard. And then I was working on content for a bit. And then I was leading a nonprofit for a bit. - That's right. - That brought me a lot of like different perspectives of like how to run a company, how to like build out marketing for a company. It was bare bones like 50 people team. And then at the end, I was just doing like high level strategy for it. And so I think the startup idea or the creator tool was always in the back of my head. But then there's always something that like was in the forefront. And then after I off-boarded of the nonprofit and then I had a second round, a second iteration of this idea, then it became like kind of like a two-sided creator marketplace for deals, something to like be like an agent or a talent manager for creators. 'Cause I really do think sometimes like talent agencies can be quite predatory. Especially for younger creators who don't really know the lay of the land and how to negotiate. And I think we come from a very different place 'cause we're like corporate girlies. Like we read contracts. - We read contracts. - Yeah. - We surprise how many people don't read their contracts. - They don't know. - You just sign their lives away. - Yep. Then all of a sudden their contents like being blasted everywhere. You don't really know like where that's going. Like what rights you have over your own content and things like that. So it was a creator marketplace for that. I actually hired a designer. Someone that I worked with at Spotify. I paid her to like build out a prototype for me on Figma. I made the whole pitch deck and then I started pitching. I went that far and then I got connected to someone at YCOM. They went through one of the cohorts. They liked my idea, but they're like, it's not fully there yet and I can't give you my recommendation. But let's meet monthly and I will guide you through it. - Okay. - They were so nice, incredibly kind. And I think they really wanted to believe and support me. But then I got a job. And then someone hired me, gave me money, and so on. And then that kind of dwindled down. Yeah, so I think it's always like, I have this want. And then something is like coming in the forefront and then like, okay, let me focus on this. And then so it's always like my dreams like always push in the back. Yeah, and then now like this is the third iteration of this thing that I'm creating. I'm not going to reveal too much about what it is yet. I do kind of want to build slightly in public. I'm also like very big on my manifestations. So I'm like putting it out there to have some accountability on building this thing. To not reveal a lot of the cards. - Yeah, yeah. - That'd be strategic. - Yes. - But I've never felt so unable to build by myself. So the whole prototyping thing, I was able to do it with AI. And I think there's a lot to this where I think I'm coming from a very specific place where I started CS. I'm working towards my master's in DS. I've also worked in the fields for like seven years with like a bunch of technical folks. I know how to read code. I know how to write code. It's not going to be production code. But working with AI is very tricky because you can very much just prompt them to build a thing for you. But you need to like have the checks and balances of like, is this actually doing what I want it to do? Is it actually parsing the information that I want? Does this architecture work on all different kinds of platform? Can I scale this later? Does UI/UX actually work this way for someone? And that only comes with experience. So I think AI is very powerful. If you actually have like a sense or like knowledge about what you want to build and how to build it. All in all, I've never felt so enabled to build as a solo founder. - That is so cool. But actually, it actually took a lot of confidence for me to even come on this podcast to tell you that I'm building something. - Oh my god, you're so technical already. - It's not even not. It's like when I told my friends in real life, they're like, so what are you gonna do when you go on your adult cap year? I was like, oh mom, I'm spending time with my family. And you know, if I were a white man, I would just say I'm like, building my startup. - Yeah. - But unfortunately, I'm a little Asian woman. And I have like self-confidence issues. So I'm just like, I'm just building a tech tool that I want. You know, so it's like how you phrase it. - I get it. - Always like the, I wish I had more confidence to like - Blast it. - Blast it. - Yeah. - No, that sounds so scary. Like to me right now, it still sounds so scary. - I see. I would love to get some of career advice from you. A lot of young people are going through it. Trying to find a job. Trying to figure out what they should work in and tech and corporate. And there are very little answers in the ecosystem keeps changing. So if I can just ask you some career advice questions that the people are asking, that's awesome. - So what exactly is a data scientist? What does a data scientist do? - I think there's like different kinds of data scientists. Personally, in my career, I've always been kind of like a product data scientist. So I work embedded on product team. So with a product manager, with engineers, with a designer usually, there are some more like centralized data science roles. It depends on how your company wants to operate. In the centralized DS orgs, typically you answer more like overarching questions, like forecasting, LTV, bigger questions around like how the business is moving. So it really just depends on like the opportunity and like what you like to do. - What makes a difference between a junior DS, DS senior head of what would you say is a change? - I'd say from like very junior like associate to mid level. Maybe it's more technical at that point, transferring the skills that you learned in school into the workplace. It's definitely workable. That's why I like that kind of time period is very short. And then from mid level to senior, it's a lot more about impact and autonomy. I would say autonomy comes first before impact. So like being able to manage workflows and projects from start to finish by yourself, this sounds so corporate like yeah. (laughing) - Wait, it is weird. - Yeah, I mean, all the managers would say to me and I'm just kinda like regurgitating it. I do believe that is true though. Just being able to like do your own work and then not like bother other people. I think that's just like basic. And then I think the hard part is driving the impact because yeah, when you work in a corporate structure, sometimes work is handed to you and sometimes that work is just not gonna be the most impactful thing. And so some people are set up for success. If you're just naturally in a product that like has a lot of opportunities and impact, then it's easy. But then if you're in a position where, oh, you might be on a team and you're working on this small thing, then you have to kinda go out of your way and like network or like try to craft something like fancy and then that's like kind of hard. And I'm just like, okay, yeah. - Let's one mistake that mid-level DS is, do that keeps them from becoming senior. - I would say not promoting their work enough. 'Cause yeah, I actually do think mid-levels do great work. And I remember when I was a child, I was a child. When I was a mid-level, I think it's probably going back to how you view yourself and the confidence that you have. Because even when I look at the mid-levels currently at Notion, they do exceptional work. A mid-level who's been working for four to five years versus me a senior who's been working for seven years, I actually think technically it's just experience at the end of the day and the different scenarios that we've encountered and I'm just a bit more tenured, but technically we're capped. There's only so many cool new methodologies that you can do for a DS analysis. It really is about knowing where to present and how to present and sounding more senior and making more of an impact and then making sure that people follow up with your work and putting it everywhere and be like, "Hey, this is important. That's basically it, to be honest." That's like organizational EQ. Yeah. It's a lot of EQ. I think IQ can only take you so far and then it's EQ. What are questions that senior DSs are supposed to be able to answer in interviews? Being on the interview side for both of my previous companies, the questions are all the same. Except if you're going in for an entry level, then the questions are a little easier. But the differentiators between mid and senior and probably even staff is just like how you approach the problem. It always comes back to, did you actually encounter this scenario previously and that's where your expertise comes in and then understanding these different edge cases and tackling it in that end shows that you've had experience in doing this thing. In terms of questions, there's your typical coding questions. It's usually in Python and then also SQL. Sometimes these say "sequals" like a take home because I think everyone should basically know SQL if you're an analyst or a DS. You should know your window functions. Oh, actually, yeah, those are just trick questions. Okay, I just memorized them. Do I use them at work like sometimes? Yeah. Know your window function if you're a data scientist for sure and then I would say there's just a lot of behavioral interviews that come with the DS position because like I said before, we're in the intersection between being a PM and engineer so they're still really vet for this EQ communication aspect and I always have an interview with the potential PM. And I think usually their opinion matters the most of like, can I bounce ideas around with this person? Yeah. Because they're going to be tight. Yeah. Like, does this person understand me on an analytical aspect? Can they fill in the spots where like I don't have visibility and yeah. And then there's like experimentation ones. It's technical in the way that we speak but it doesn't necessarily have to be like heavy technical questions the way that engineers are posed. Sequel questions, the behavioral questions, Python, what is a Python one? So it'd be more or less around data wringling. Okay. Yeah. So when I went cleaning, processing and then kind of extracting information from the data set that you were given during the interview and I allocated this as a data point throughout my job searching process where I would say like when I get Python questions, maybe I would get them like nine out of 10 times. And then out of the Python questions, maybe eight out of 10 would be the data wringling. And then two out of 10 would be like using specific Python dictionaries. So one of them was basically elite code questions like, okay, like I don't lead code. I did fine. I think it's just, it's very simple, very easy. But personally, like if I went through an interview loop and I felt like I didn't know something at the stage of my career, I'm just like, maybe this is not a good fit for me. Yeah. Because I also believe in like interviews should reflect somewhat of what you're going to be doing. Yeah. So you shouldn't be throwing a curveball and it should not be something that you actually like don't know. If it's something that I don't know and I should know, then it's oh shit, my fault. But at this point in time, I think I've interviewed enough where it's just like, okay, if I actually don't know this, I shouldn't need to know this for my job. Oh, I'm just saying. Yeah. What is a typical data science career ladder and how long does it usually take? I sort of as a DS intern and then associate data scientist. Then you go into the mid-level world and then it'd be senior. And then at some places, it's like staff, senior staff and then principal. But low key, those terms, like kind of intermingle post senior. And then at senior, it diverges into like, I see track or management track. So you can continue being like a product area expert or you can be a manager. But I think if you don't really break out into like a DS role initially, you can transition into a DS role from being a data analyst or a financial analyst. Do you know the different pay ranges for the entries to mids, to seniors, to staffs? I would say for the general tech companies that we think of, I would say for entry level associates anywhere between like a hundred to like a hundred and fifteen. Because like that phase is supposed to be quite quick. And then after like a year or two, you'll get promoted into like the mid levels. And around there, like that band is pretty big. It can go anywhere from like one twenty five to like one sixty five, I would say. This is like just base pay without like stocks or anything. And then for senior, I would say I've seen when I was job searching anywhere between like one seventy five to like two twenty. And then post that, I haven't really looked. Because I think that's just like depending on your experience, your tenure, and yeah, that's just base pay. Yeah. That's just base bonus. That's just a base bonus. Then your equity. Yeah. Actually a DS, I've never been in a role where I had a bonus. What? Yeah. There's no year on bonus. Not a performance bonus. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, it doesn't have what? I think there are merit based awards sometimes. That's a very discretionary award. Yeah. Okay. I personally haven't gotten one. But I know people who've gone just imagine getting like fifteen percent every year. Yeah. Well, yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. As a as a meets expectations. Yeah. Yeah. Or twenty percent or twenty five. Yeah. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. So basically there's a multiplier. There's like this leveling group brick of like, does not meet expectations, needs improvement, needs expectations. Exceeds expectations, and then greatly exceeds. And they have a multiplier multiplied by your base salary as your bonus. Yeah. But I've also heard like, as some companies, they can only award one person on the team. Oh. That percentage. Yeah. Exceeds expectations. And then greatly exceeds. Yeah. Oh. That percentage, like let's just say, you run a team and you only have 50K to give and you can distribute them or you can give it to one person. Budgeted. Yeah. It makes a lot of sense. Like payroll is probably the most expensive cost in a company. Yeah. But that's why it's called goals and handcuffs. Yeah. That equity is great. Yeah. You're saying for your best date, right? I did. Yeah. I definitely made sure to vest. So at Spotify, I think the vest came like monthly. There was no cliff. But when you work for like pre IPO companies, it's very common for them to have a one year cliff. And then after that, regularly, it's one year and then quarterly, usually. I see for me, it's one year and then monthly, which is, oh, that's really good. Yeah. Wow. I think. Yeah. I didn't understand what investing dates were in my first job. So I just left one. Never. Dude, I was, I was so dumb. Yeah. I was so dumb. No, I was also quite dumb. But I think I just made a dumb decision. That was good. I didn't know it was good at the time. Like I picked like 75% options or something. Okay. And then Spotify stock was great. Yeah. It did well. But I was like, I'm confused. And I didn't really have anyone to ask. And like, also, I'm not sure in different cultures, but Asian culture, like, I don't talk about money. Yeah. So like, even if I had mentors in the field, that would be happy to talk to me about it. I was shy. Yeah. I want to talk about it. Yeah. That's valid. That's really complicated. Yeah. What is the most underrated skill that you've developed at Notion? Working faster. And being actually a little less meticulous because perfection is the enemy of done. And that was a really hard thing for me to learn because I think the first review cycle, my first manager at Notion, really appreciated how meticulous I was. Yeah. And he's like, you do a great job, but you need to work faster because this is like high growth SF startup. And they're like, you work just a little slow. You work like you work at a big, fang company, I was like, oh, shoot. So it's like really adapting to the culture of where you work. I had to really learn what they valued there, and they value quality, but at the same time speed. Yeah. So I just had to work harder and understand like, okay, these things I can let go of. I used to be a stickler on like beautiful presentations or like great storytelling. And I think all these pieces need to be there. Yeah. I think they're just like get to the point. And just as long as you log everything and it makes sense, let's move on to the next Inc. ship. No ship. Let's go. We just need to build confidence conviction for a decision and we need to move on. Yeah. The operates so fast they're so fast. If you were graduating today, what would you build in your portfolio or resume to get yourself that interview? First off, I think if you're a student in CS or DS today, I feel for you. It is a tough market. Yeah. It's really tough. I know if my advice right now would be actually as prevalent, but one thing that really did help me when I was in undergrad is like, if I really wanted to be in a certain field, I don't think it actually mattered what company I was at as long as I had the title. So, I started off with it. data science intern at Boeing. - Oh yeah, I have a Boeing internship too. - Oh yeah, I think we need to talk about this. I think that's just a route that like, not a lot of people think about, like you have to think outside of the box, right? Like everyone wants that GS or engineering internship at Microsoft or Google. - That's hard, that's too hard. - But other companies name data scientists too. Other companies name PMs designers. And so what if I work for the MTA as a data scientist or what if I work at, I don't know, whatever random company as a data scientist, I think the experience in the title does matter a little bit more earlier on. And then you can slowly segue like your way into the actual company that you want to be at. And then also I took a lot of like, winter and fall internships or spring internships, which I think not a lot of people explore that helps me a lot too. If I were to today understand how to use AI but don't really optimize for it, I think you should optimize for your foundations. And I say that because when we had this whole AI shift at Notion, I did see for more junior engineers, like people who just started off, I think there are a lot of errors in their code. - Yeah. - Yeah. And so it caused a lot of like edge cases to pop up of like when we ship things, like things just broke. Yeah, so I think like AI is a tool to support you, but you shouldn't like rely on happening. - Yes, you have to know. And yeah, once like I think it's so apparent if like, you don't know what you're doing. - You don't know exactly. I was invited by Coding Bootcamp. And I was running into so many errors. And Kevin just like was troubleshooting with me. And he was like, this is so dumb. Like they took a really bad path forward and you should just delete that. - Yeah. - Yeah, I think that's great advice. You really have to know what's happening in your foundations. It is really empowering, but you need to know what's going on. - I think it's hard though, because even as a student today, I rely on AI to like help me with my homework and study. And it's just so easy to not actually learn because yeah, the answers are just so easily accessible. - Yes, exactly. It also has made me less social because back in college, I was at the mercy of my smarter friends. - That's true. - To help me with my homework. - Study groups. - Yeah. - Gotta be buddy buddy with everyone. - Yeah. - But now my master's program, I feel like I've made less friends because if I don't know something, I could just ask AI to explain it to me. - Wow, that's so interesting. - Yeah, the master's is very different. Do you think the resume is dead though? - I don't think it's necessarily dead, but I have seen like crazy ways that people try to stand out in the like job, hunting aspect of things. Like I've seen someone sent a video and sing a song about how much they want to work. - Are referrals still far better? - Yes. I have a friend who's going through recruiting right now and the only interviews they've gone were through referrals. - Yeah, especially if you want to work in like smaller high growth Silicon Valley tech companies, everyone knows each other. Like if I tomorrow want to go to Anthropic, like I'm sure like everyone knows of each other. The teams are so small, I get poached every day to like other similar AI companies in the space. There's only so many of us, right? Like at Notion, we have like 30 data scientists at like tiny, yeah, it's tiny. Yeah, at ramp, there's like probably another 30. Like I don't really know. Like yeah, we all just kind of go around, yeah. - Exactly. - So the world is very small and then especially if like you want to be in a specific type of company, if it's a smaller company, the referrals go a long way. 'Cause when I refer my friends to Notion, I actually more often than not know the hiring manager or I know the recruiter that's recruiting for the role. So I just go straight to them. - And someone is contemplating quitting and they're like, Julia, I think I want to quit. How would you advise them to navigate that feeling? - I am a big journalist, journalist. Journalist, I would say map it out, write a list. I'm a little crazy, so I think in decision trees, sometimes I think in random forests. 'Cause every move or every option that you have can lead to different outcomes. - Exactly. So as an over thinker for me, what's really helpful is like paper to pen, just map out if I take this decision, where would I be a year from now, five years from now, 10 years from now, and then if I do this, this is this. And then I sleep on it and then at the end of the day, if you're still stuck with some options, I think your gut will really tell you where you want to go. I think as women, but then especially as Asian women, sometimes we don't really take a lot of risks. And I see that a lot in my friendships, in my family, with my sisters, with myself, I wish that we had more courage to take bigger risks to found yourself, to bet on ourselves, and just know that stability is actually a scam, is nothing's ever going to stay the same. Nothing's gonna be stable forever. So why not adapt and move along with it? But I think as Asian women, we're always raised to be as stable as we can be. It is that kind of, what do you call it? - Scarsity. - Yeah, it is scarcity mindset in a way. And once you have scarcity mindset, how can you grow from that and how can you take bigger risks and welcome more things into your life? So I would just say at the end of the day, take that risk as long as you calculate it for it. - How did you determine the financial risk for you? 'Cause I know that's always been a conversation. In our like, do we go corporate, do we stay corporate? Do we break out and do the creators thing on the entrepreneurial thing, but money, but we're immigrant family children? - Yes. It's actually such a hard topic. - We do talk about a lot and as people that like do support our parents in their retirement or at their current age, that is also a factor too. But one, I think, I've been working for a while. So just like always living below my means and saving while also living the life that I kind of want. I don't believe in not drinking that latte. If you want that latte, I believe in making enough money to afford that latte and your life. So I think you can always make more money. That's just my mindset. Where money is probably the easiest thing to make. Is it easy to make a million dollars? No, but is it easy to make some money? I think I can always find a way to make money if I want to and put food on my table. The hardest thing to do is probably doing what you actually want and following your passions in your dreams. That's really ambiguous and hard. - It's such a privilege to quit. - It is such a, oh girl. I was so scared just announcing it because in this economy and in this job market, - It's crazy to say. - It's crazy, it really is. But I think a lot of people just don't see how much hard work it takes to prep to make this decision. - Yeah, it's never overnight. - Yeah, it's not. So my savings had to be in place. Not only savings for me for this one year. And if I save for a year, it's actually for a year and a half. Because you have other expenses that you probably don't incur for. And then also saving for my parents and because I do support their retirement. So I had to save 1.5 X the amount for that. But a lot of things had to align. They were like, good thing I joined tech locally and then good thing like some of my stocks vested. And then I have some of that. I invested in like another career. So contribution. Yes, so a lot of these things like, they just like snowballed and compiled and like really vested over time, which I'm very thankful for. Did I plan for this? Maybe subconsciously. I think I was just following like what I felt was right and what I wanted to do. And then that has helped me with like a financial base. And then I think a lot of things also had to be in place where I made a very good financial decision to rent out a very cheap apartment in our city. Great deal, but you've been to my place. It's not like huge, but it's livable. It's really loud. But like you have certain trade-offs, right? And I was okay with that. I can definitely live in a very nice place, but I just choose to live below my means. Because I know at one day, I want flexibility. And for me to have that, I need to have financial freedom and financial security. So like that was a decision I made three years ago. And I saved so much on rent. And then that can go into my savings or into this new thing that I'm building, you know? And then thankfully, my parents retired in Asia. Yeah, in America. Yes, low cost of living. So I'm really like happy about that. So when I went back to Asia, I was like, you guys are staying here for a little bit, right? And they're like, yeah, we love it here. But I was like, okay, yeah. Well, we're sipping on our like 50 cent Vietnamese ice coffee in the street. Yes, yes. So yeah, just a lot of financial planning and just opening up different opportunities to make money. 'Cause like, it's just really hard to save these days. I feel extremely lucky to be like in the place that we are today. I think a lot of things just like, yeah, life is a lot about like luck. But at the same time, like knowing what to do with that luck as well. And like knowing how to operate when like opportunities come. It's a hard landscape. Job wise, consumer wise, social media wise. So yeah, I feel very lucky. How did you build your personal brand? This is a question that I get a lot. What even is personal brand to you? And do you intentionally go in and being like, I'm gonna build this personal brand thing? Like someone would ask you and for advice. Yeah, yeah. I personally am so confused what this term is. I think it's probably 'cause it's just so core to who you are. Okay. And you are so authentically yourself. that whatever you do radiates that. And so you're just awesome. That's basically what it means. Because like for the rest of us, like we have to kind of think about how we want to be portrayed. - Yeah. - Oh my God. - Yeah. - You've never done a personal branding exercise? - What is that? - Dude, I do this all the time specifically for my content. - Okay. - Very early on I started making videos about styling and fashion. And then what blew up for me was like the whole day and the life tech stuff. But even before then some like roommate gover, some like apartment hunting stuff. And then at the end I had like a couple of different avenues of what I could build my channel to be. And then I did a personal branding exercise of looking back, like zooming out, how do I want to be perceived or portrayed. What, how do I want to make people feel? - Feel. - Yeah. - Exactly, or like what do I want to share and what, what do I want to represent. And so I think all those questions lead me to the answer of like, okay on the internet I want to be like a relatable, authentic person that just is a regular person that lives her nine to five life, but also enjoys like ex-waysy hobbies. And that's like my personal brand. Like I'm not here to preach anything. I'm not here to like teach anything. I'm just like here to like share. And I hope that like my genuinely like resonates with my audience. Like that's my personal brand. I think maybe for you like you never really had to think about it because this is like who you are. - Oh, okay, I do it for content, but I never did. I don't think I really did it for work. - Like I don't think about personal brand when I present myself in front of my friends or family or when I meet someone else. Like I think that just will emulate. - I see. - Yeah. - Like I do think about like the type of person I want to be and how I want to show up and how I want to make people feel and how I don't want to be. - Okay. - Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like that's your personal brand. But then also I think you get the feedback around like if people tell you you're this, that's like how they portray you and like you're like, you should question like if you like that personal brand. - Yeah, I think that I have really strong branding or personal branding or something. - You do. - And then I'm like, oh, okay, okay. Let's break this down a little bit. - Yeah. - Yeah, but in the workplace, I think maybe what I heard was you wanting to appear very senior, very cool, very, I'm not friends with you. - I'm older than you, we are not the same. - Yeah, we are not the same exactly. - Yeah, get out of here. - So a week before I started my new job at Notion, I sat down and was like, how do I want to be portrayed at Notion? I want to be like a badass senior, data scientist, no friends, no shits, like nothing. Like don't mess with me. - Yeah, like just business. - Yeah. - Yeah. - I came in and put in like whatever, like the first day. - RBF on. - Yeah. But now I was just like, don't talk to anyone once you talk. It's over. It's over once you open your mouth. - To people tell you, oh, you seem like really hard to approach at yours. - They did, they did. That's not what I want though. I don't want to be like, not friendly. I just felt like, okay, for me to be respected means I have to be a hard ass, which is not it. - Yeah. - But yeah, if someone who's working full time in tech also wanted to try content, what would you advise them? - I would say do it, but be very aware that you might not have the work life balance that you want. Like your in tech and you want to be a content creator. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - So that's like two full time jobs. - Yeah. - So unfortunately, like I don't want to feed into hustle culture, but once you choose that path, you are unfortunately part of hustle culture. - It's a grind. - Yeah. - I think we've all talked about it with Sarah's, our friend Sarah Pan, that. - I don't know, wait, we go to bed at like 4 a.m. and then go to work at like nine. - Yeah, it's a sacrifice. I think it's either you sacrifice for what you want or you sacrifice what you want. And so if you want both things, if you want both things and you got to work for it and you can't have everything in life, so that's also what I tell my little sister too, because I run another channel with them, like my two sisters and we just like shoot the shit. I did not know that. - Yeah, I know. - We talk about like girl stuff. We talk about what's on our mind. It's not a podcast, everyone's saying it's a podcast, but it's just like we do family vlogs. We do like day in the life vlogs. It's just like a sister channel. It kind of spurred from my break up and we just spent so much time together. But yeah, I think we're running into some logistical, operational, co-working like struggles. - It's okay. - Yeah, and my little sister, she's like, she's amazing. She's lovely, but she hasn't built out a strong of a work ethic as me and my older sister. And I think for us, we like, we won't sleep to get this thing done if we believe in it. And I think she's definitely more Genzy. She's like, I'll sleep, it'll get done. And we're like, okay. Yeah, like the deadline's like tomorrow. - Yeah, yeah, so. - If you want more things in your life, you just need to make sure that you can work for it. - Yeah, that is valid fare. - Nothing is easy. It always seems like, oh, everyone has it so easy, but everyone's putting a freaking grind behind the scenes. - It's a grind, yeah, for sure. - Everything's super sweaty. - Yeah. - What are you afraid of? - Okay, I'm just a human. So I am afraid of failure. - What is failure? - Right, that's a good question. - Yeah. - I think for me, when I think of failure initially, it's like not achieving any of the goals, but actually I think failure is like not taking the risk to do the thing that you actually wanted to do. - Yeah. - So, quote it, yeah. - Flip it. - Yeah. - The last week that I was in office or the last two weeks, I was like, you know, when you put in your two weeks, you're just kind of like dilly-dallying and I was having a bunch of coffee chats. And everyone's like, are you excited? And I was until like the last couple of days and I was like, oh, shit, I'm getting really anxious. I'm getting anxious about losing this identity, losing stability, losing my golden handcuffs. And then now I feel like I have to succeed. Or else this risk is just like, you know, it wasn't worth the risk if I don't succeed. But that's obviously such a pessimistic way to think about it. And it's even harder because like I'm leaving and arguably like very good thing. Like there was actually nothing wrong with the company or like my role. I was like quite happy, but I was just really scared of like doing that and being in that phase for a long time and then waking up one day and it's just like, oh, shit, I never really got to do what I wanted. - Yeah, exactly. - Did you ever read Percy Jackson? - I think so. - There's this, remember much. - Okay. - There was one scene where like they went to Casino and they were supposed to find this thing, but this casino was like a trap and it was an illusion. There were only supposed to be there for a couple of hours, but then they ended up being in there for like almost a whole month or something. And that's kind of like how I felt at this previous role. We're all having so much fun, but I was only supposed to be in there for a couple of hours. And then I think if I didn't wake up and I didn't push myself to get out or change or move like five years down the line, I just wake up one day and be like, oh my gosh, I never got to like leave and actually take a bet on myself. - Are you ready for your performance review? - Oh my gosh, I'm getting PTSD. (laughing) - This is off his from it. - Where I have to assess, this is my glasses, I have to assess your performance in this episode. But I have to give you some questions and you just answer me off the dome, quick rapid fire, your gut instinct. - Okay. - You ready? - Yes. - Okay, would you rather be right or promoted? - Right. - Follow your gut or follow the data. - Follow your gut. - Oh, yeah. - I feel like I'm in between. - Controversial. - Controversial. - Would you be down to make a million dollars, but you have to show as a course person for life? - For a year. - Oh, that's not bad. - Yeah, I do it. - More runway for what I wanna do. - Would you ever write a post starting with leaving my 500K tech job is star A, dot, dot, dot, if it could promote your new started venture, your new product. - No. - She has baseline standards, morals. Should filming a day in the life working in tech be banned or permitted in the office? - Permitted if you blur out your co-workers face in all proprietary information and do it as distreately as possible. - As a data scientist, who bullies you more? - Oh, the PMs. (laughing) - PMs. - Are you living with main character energy or are you in your NPC era? - Main character energy. - Guns your head. US or China living right now? - I had a move, you had a move. - China. - Okay, meaning before 10 AM, human rights violation or a personal problem? - Personal problem. - Damn. - Out of 100%, for a promotion, what percent is skill and what percent is visibility? - 35% skill, 65% visibility. - Is Genzi cooked or trainable in the workplace? - Trainable. - Manager or super IC? - Super IC. - Yeah, fucking manager. (laughing) - If AI completely took your job, would you rather be a plumber or electrician? - Electrician. - I can't deal with the-- - The stinky? - Yeah, the stinkiness. - What is feedback that you've gotten that you disagree with? - All feedback is helpful feedback. - Oh, that is what you disagree with. - Yeah. - I don't think all feedback is helpful feedback. Sometimes the feedback don't make sense. - Have you ever been like, "Yo, that doesn't make any sense?" - Yeah, so I think like the feedback skill, I could be receptive, does it mean all right? - No, 'cause I mean, I'm gonna take it like-- - No, like you have to discern it yourself. - Yeah, sometimes people are just trying to be me. - Mm-hmm. - If you found out that your underperforming work enemy is moon lighting, two full-time tech jobs, do you narc? - No. - Even discreetly. - Like their moon lighting, too? - Like you hate them with all your gut. - But are they doing their work? - They usually are not all the way, but you don't have, you hate them. You don't respect them. - Are they imposing on my work? - They're on your team. I actually don't think I would. And because I think it will manifest in itself. Like, people figure it out without me having to say anything. What have you been humbled by recently? These days, I've been humbled by how old I am. Yeah. It's a big 3-0 year. It's a big 3-0 year, but like, even at work. Yeah, sometimes I'm like, "I'm a senior. We're different." But then at the same time, like, "Wait, we're not like all the same 25 going out to like, mission or dead souls." But then also in the creator roles, everyone is so young. Oh my god, everyone's like 22. Yeah, and then when I got my bangs, everyone's like, "Oh my gosh, we're like same same." Where I was like, "No." I wish, like, I don't feel the same. I have convulsed. Yeah, I'm humbled by like, my back hurts. Everything hurts to hangover suck. Tumbling. Gun to your head, you can only choose one husband, which one? Do you know this one? Yangyang. Yeah. Okay. Number two. Oh, yes. I do know what's his name. Zhang Ling. Huh? Oh, me. I can tell you. Yes. He's in the Jade, something, something. Pursuit of Jade. Yes. I don't know who he is. Did you watch a dream within a dream? No. That was pretty good. Oh, yeah. Liu Yu Ning. Liu Yu Ning. No, he didn't. Yeah, a dream within a dream. Oh, uh, I've watched so many of his shows. Xiao Zhan. Oh, Xiao Zhan. He was an untamed and longest promise. Yes. Be untamed. Oh, Dylan Wang. Yeah. Take one. It's so easy for me. Oh, Yangyang. Okay, now. Who do you kill? Kill? Yeah. Oh, no. I don't want to kill any of them. Okay, I don't know him. This is my prince, though. Your Yangyang is great. My first love. That was all the questions. Oh, my god. I totally forgot to tell Julia her rating. Of course, she gets an exceed expectations. Woo. Okay, back to the episode. Thank you so much for being on Office Drama. Where can people find you, Julia? You can find me on YouTube. It's Julia Daufe. Or Instagram or TikTok. They're all the same. But not on LinkedIn. TBD. Are you open to people called messaging you? Yes, but will I replies also TBD? If they do want to reach out, how do they increase their chances of you responding? I think give me a good hook and give me a good like, like a not a generic email. You know, I'd love a video if you like saying or something. Oh, yeah. You want someone to sing? Okay. And would you Julia come back for a future episode of Office Drama? I would if Chloe ever invites me back. Oh my god, I'm under pressure. When would you want to come back? Like, what would you want to talk about? Like, what milestone or checkpoint should I catch you at? Let's look back in a year. Okay. See where I am in a year. Okay. Yeah. So good. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for being here. Thank you so much for watching Office Drama. We had a lot of ground to cover. If you have any questions or comments that you want to share with Julia, please leave them down in the comments below. If there are other people in tech, meet your entertainment that you would want on Office Drama. Please let me know. Maybe tag them. Maybe they'll even notice us. I think that's how it works here. Thank you for listening and watching. And as always, I will see you next week. Lugging out. Guys, I love Julia. Like, you have no idea. We go so back when I was first making YouTube videos and working at TikTok and then Discord. I felt like I was judged a lot for doing it. Like, it was not cool back then to make content and work full time. People thought I was really cringe and people did take me less seriously. I was almost like ashamed of people knowing about this side thing I had. But only people who've done the full-time tech job and a content creator job consistently know how absolutely grueling of a grind you have to go through to make it all work. So me, Julia, and Sarah Pan were in this little tech-roly support group together. And our lives are truly just working and editing and that was it. No other hobbies, no sleep, just grind. But now it is such a privilege to see Julia grow into who she is today and taking this bit on herself. Knowing her, she's very, very risk-averse. She has a ton of plans. She has a lot of responsibility. She's also such an insanely hard worker. I know she's going to succeed in whatever she works on. So Julia, to the moon! I hope you enjoyed today's episode and see that leaving a job, whether it's your choice or not, is always a very difficult one to navigate and there's a lot of considerations that you have to think through. It is a privilege to leave the perceived stability of tech and corporate. But you must move forward with intention, strategy, and preparation. And also, what the heck, Julia, literally just set me this box of vegetables today to congratulate me on my impregnancy. She's very thoughtful. She was like, "Oh, Chloe, what do you like?" And I'm like, "Oh, I don't know why I like vegetables." And she gave me all these vegetables. I was so confused when I got it and she didn't even tell me. But I am so thankful to have her in my world and in my universe, you know, Julia is one of the girlies who was able to make it to my wedding and like, dude, yeah, friends for life. Check out the Patreon for all of her bonus segments for this episode. We actually put Julia's personal shield as a bonus video on Patreon if you want to get to know her on a deeper level. Also, someone suggested our community name to be drama kings or drama queens. Kevin, then ironically, was like, "What about drama llamas?" But then a bunch of people DM me back saying, "Yep, that's it, Chloe. That's the name." Is that what you also think? Let me know. That's all for now. And I'll see y'all next week.