I Needed To Take Back Control Of Who I Was | Jameela Jamil

I had no visa, no plan, no friends, no contact, no idea what I was going to do. Jamila Jamil! Award-winning actress, activist, and chaos agent for good. I grew up in a single-parent household. We had no money. Everyone around me was mentally ill. I developed anorexia as a means to control myself. My depression was just repressed rage. I wasn't being honest with the world about who I was. I was so busy making people like me. So I confronted it all. I cut loads of people out of my life. And I decided to set off on an experiment to save my own life. How does your life get better from there? They cast me as one of the leads in what would go on to become like one of the defining cult comedies of my generation. I don't know how I survived. I was fighting for my life on that show. I made a list. I had to think of everything that made me sad in my life. What was on that list? Well. So, Jamila, first off, welcome to What Happens Next. I'm so excited to have you here. And I had a plan as to how this podcast was going to go and I had some note cards and we were going to go through some sort of chronological order of your life. And then right beforehand, I was told that you don't really want to talk about some of the things that you normally talk about on podcasts. So I threw away all the note cards. And we're going to go without any plan in whichever direction you want to go today. That's exciting. How does that sound? Yeah. Awesome. Well, welcome to L.A. You're visiting from London. I am. What do you got going on while you're here? I'm promoting a movie that just came out. It's called People We Meet on Vacation. And it's on Netflix. And then I'm also promoting my podcast, Wrong Turns with Jamila Jamil, which is a comedy disaster podcast about how sometimes when life gives you lemons, you just don't make lemonade. You make lemonade. But not all of us. Do. And so I was like, the people who aren't inspiring need somewhere to go. And so I decided to create a curmudgeonly community of people who just sometimes experience humiliation. And there's no upside. And there's no wisdom gained. And it's really fun. And it makes people feel better about their own lives every week. Yeah. So I'm just curious as to why you don't feel like you're inspiring. I mean, we all have our different formats, right? Like mine might be a little bit more on the nose, inspiration, giving advice. But that's true. That's lovely. And it's so necessary what you do. But I think it's so lovely just to be able to take things like surface level, make fun of them, make fun of yourself. And I think in your own way, like that is inspiring and reaching people that I never could. Well, listen, I think I'm just here to represent the goblin community. You know, I just think that there are some of us who are on the outskirts of society who don't know how to say the right thing or do the right thing ever. And we create chaos and mess wherever we go. And we're people, too, you know, and we we deserve our own club. So I couldn't find one to join. So I started one. And that's basically my entire social media. But what's interesting is I describe myself as that way. And I think that's why I'm almost like so sheltered where I'm just constantly scared of saying the wrong thing, reacting the wrong way. And so everything like my type of content is more scripted, brand safe. I'm very proud of you for throwing all your questions away. That's very cool. This is the first time I've done this. Honestly, you kind of got me out of my comfort zone. And that's part of my I mean, I know this is going to publish a little bit later than, you know, the start of twenty twenty six. But just in general for this year, I'm trying to get out of my comfort zone a little bit more and just kind of ride with the waves of life. But because I am scared of certain aspects, I shelter in. And so I don't put myself out there. But you do quite the opposite. You say that you may not say the right things, but you continue to speak out. And so one frame of thought could just be, well. I'm going to go on a podcast. And so, you know, part of what my therapist talks about is that I've never really developed so much emotionally. And because I had that more so challenging childhood, I always would use some sort of defense, whether humor, whether, you know, not opening up and having superficial relationships or conversations as a way to sort of not really open up. So I just wonder if there's any sort of aspect you feel like you could be shying away from. No, I don't think so. I mean, I can't shut up about my feelings. It's kind of the opposite. It's more so that for me, honestly, like, you know, I used to watch sad things. And I think the world has just become so sad. And all you have to do is watch the news that I think I'm, I think I might be at capacity for how much sadness I can take on beyond that. So if I'm going to watch entertainment, I'd like to laugh. Yeah, I want to see things explode. Right. You know, that is really I want, watch a car fly off a ramp into a helicopter. It's not a way to detach. Like, I feel very comfortable with my emotions. And I've had therapy before. And I also am a woman. So I therefore have more access to a world where it's encouraged for me to tell people how I feel. I think it's much harder for men and particular South Asian men. So no, it's literally just I don't really want to be bummed out. Like I already have social media. I'm good. I'm good for I need to laugh now or be amazed by something I want. I need some active escapism. And I don't enjoy the feeling. I'm also and this is crazy. I'm allergic to my tears. Have you ever heard of that? Like actually allergic to tears? Yeah. What in tears could I have no idea? I was like, is am I that British? But I have an allergic reaction to tears. So it's also not safe if you're an actor to have to cry. So sometimes what I have crying scenes, I'm sorry to say this, I'm shoving peppermint in my eye. Because if I cry, if I properly cry, I'm gonna have an allergic reaction. My face will swell up. Wow. Like, like, like crazy swell up. Talk about irony. Super pathetic. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, also, you dealt a lot growing up, right? And I totally can relate that you have a certain life experience when you're younger, and you sort of hit the point where you're just like, I'm done with that chapter in my life. And I'm ready to sort of evolve to be this person. So just without dwelling too much about your childhood. So you were, you know, growing up, you were didn't have a lot of means, right? Look, I had a I had a rough ride. Like I grew up in a single parent household, where we had no money. I, everyone around me was mentally ill. I was physically sick. I was also mentally ill. I developed anorexia as a means to control myself, but also fit in with a very affluent white school that I'd won a scholarship to. There was abuse in my childhood. And I was able to get a job. It was all bleak. But I am very lucky that I'm someone who was willing to face the bleakness. I didn't spend my life trying to outrun it. And so when I was 26, I was like, that's it. I can't carry this into my 30s. I want to deal with all of this head on. I cut loads of people out of my life, including most of my own family, which if you're South Asian, is a crazy move. And that involved doing everything 180 completely differently to how I'd done it. You know, they say the definition of madness is doing the same thing again and again and expecting different results. And I feel as though so many of us don't feel like we have permission to do something completely different. And we have to stay friends with the people that hurt us or we or family have an extra pass to you, even though they don't treat you well. And so I decided to set off on an experiment to save my own life. And I don't believe in that. I don't believe blood is thicker than what is it? Water? Well, so yeah, you know, it's like, all right, well, poo is thicker than blood. Like, what kind of where is this analogy going to go? I really believe that nobody's entitled to your company and your time and your life. Everyone has to earn it. I don't believe in unconditional love. I believe in conditional love. You know, obviously, when it comes to your babies, or your dogs or cats, that's different. But for adults, I believe in conditional love. I believe you have to treat someone properly and earn their respect and their love and their time because it's precious. And so I became quite ruthless in that way. And then I started just taking more risks. I'd read this book that I think everyone should read called The Yes Man by Danny Wallace, about this depressed man who one day decides to say yes to everything. And he has this crazy adventure that he documents. And that book massively inspired me to start saying yes to more things and throwing myself out there and embarrassing myself. And finding my real people, people who liked me and loved me for me, for who I actually am, rather than this people pleasing facade that I had. And I moved country and I just took crazy swings. And as a result, I'm now kind of on year 14 of that experiment, saved my own life. And on the other side of it can just be pure magic. You can achieve things you never thought you could achieve. You can meet people you never thought you'd be lucky enough to be friends with. And you can do things you could never have ever imagined being lucky enough to get to do. And I don't mean fame and awards. I'm talking about going on like swimming with a dolphin, which is still incredible, but also free. On any journey using Uber, it helps to know you're getting into the right car. Pin verification adds an extra step to make sure your ride is your ride. Before the trip begins, your app gives you a unique pin. Just tell it to your driver and they'll enter it in their app before the ride can start. That way, you know you're in the right car taking the right trip and your driver knows you're the right passenger. Make sure your ride is your ride with pin verification from Uber. One more way Uber is putting safety at every turn. Learn more on the Uber app. Low energy, unfocused, foggy. You might be dehydrated. Gatorade Zero powders have been scientifically designed to help improve hydration balance in the body. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and Gatorade Zero powders, you can improve hydration balance in the body. No artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting hydration, no matter where you're going. Shop now online or at retailers nationwide. Gatorade hydrates better than water. Is it in you? Symptoms noted are signs of mild to moderate dehydration. Consult a healthcare professional if symptoms persist. That's such a beautiful story. And I think there's so many people that might be at that stage of their life where they know that something needs to change. But on that other side is always a lot of fear as well, right? I made a list of everything that made me sad. The people who were in my life. Fame in England was so suffocating. I became famous really fast and our tabloids are horrific. They're notably the worst tabloids in the world. They're the most invasive. They hack people's phones. They harass and hound women and people actually. They're the worst tabloids for the public. And they set people upon you. They make people hate you to the point where people start to abuse you in the street. You have paparazzi outside all of the time. If you're a young woman, there's like eight men that you don't know who shouldn't really legally be allowed to camp outside your door. That should be seen as stalking, but if they've got a camera, they're allowed. So I was just, that was too much for someone who was just like an English teacher who became famous by accident. You know, I got scouted in the street because, you know, there was an opportunity to be on television. I didn't really know what I was getting myself in for. I'm very glad I did it and I'm very grateful for the opportunity, but that was too much for me. And I think I was being an inauthentic person. My depression that I had at the time was just repressed rage. I was so busy making people like me that I was too scared to show them all my true colors. And people are very strict and there are parts of us that are ugly and messy, and there are also parts of us that are beautiful and brilliant, but it's really hard to get to the beautiful and brilliant if you're suppressing everything else. So what was your personality like at that time? It was far less honest than I am now and holding my tongue all the time and accepting and tolerating really bad behavior from other people. I allowed myself to be very bullied by people, not just as a kid, but also as an adult. I accepted terrible behavior and I thought I deserved it. They taught me that I deserved to be treated that way. And once you turn that on its head and you start saying no to people, and you can start saying no in really minor ways, like your coffee comes wrong and you're like, oh, I'm so sorry. I actually asked for this type of milk. Or you send a meal back or someone kisses you in a way that you don't like being kissed. You're like, it's a lot of tongue. I prefer less tongue in the kiss. While you're acting, you're saying. In the middle of the kiss. Like with someone. No, not while I'm acting, like on a day. Oh, you mean on a day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you start to just advocate for yourself and just be like, oh, I don't really like this. It feels so scary to just tell people what you want. But generally en masse, I found that people want to know what you want. They want to get it right. People who aren't monsters would like to treat you in a way in which you'd like to be treated so that you keep coming back. That's how I feel. I like feedback. And so I started giving people feedback and it really well and it led to a life where I think when you're not being authentic there's this gap between you and the person that you present to the world and that space between those two people is where the numbness happens and a numbness is often what some not everyone's depression feels like pain yeah my depression felt like disassociation it felt like i'm numb i kind of don't care about anything and i don't care if i live or die and i uh just felt nothing and that was like accumulation of all these bad relationships of not speaking up for yourself all that pain that i wasn't really acknowledging yeah and this fake happy clown persona that i was putting on and so i dropped that and i was like you know what i had a really difficult childhood and i need to deal with it and because i let myself deal with it i was able to leave that behind i was able to i wasn't pushing it down yeah i've genuinely buried it i've held a funeral for it and i've moved and i've moved on into adulthood because it will follow you around for the rest of your life those childhood patterns if you don't actually lean in and go after it one by one like liam neeson and taken you know you really do that's how you have to take it all out and so and take it apart right and so i took myself completely apart and i rebuilt myself from scratch almost like i was a baby i'd love to hear just more about like how you rebuilt yourself and where your life went from there it's interesting how you talk about just speaking up more for yourself because i definitely see this all around me especially when you're an immigrant you almost feel like you may not have enough space in a room to really speak up for yourself yeah um because you're lucky to be there right um you almost feel like someone else's like voice matters a little bit more than yours or you're scared to like offend people my wife is always afraid to like come across as like being difficult or um i guess disappointing anyone or anyone's feelings but i similarly if something that she orders comes out wrong i will say like hey the waiter would rather know they're probably trying to get a good tip because you love the food one of the tips that i've used uh because in the beginning i was a little bit i had a little bit of a hard time just kind of speaking up for my preference and things as well is i would just open up about the process i would say hey it's a little uncomfortable for me to say i hate to ask this but one of the things i'm working on is being a little bit more outspoken so do you mind actually drinking again in this sort of fashion and when you actually cue people in on like the process the journey that you're on sometimes it makes it a little bit easier for yourself to be able to express yourself yeah and then the other person is also just a little bit more empathetic because then they're like oh yeah totally like please don't hesitate at all i'm so glad you told me and then it makes you feel comfortable our generation we grew up with you know you have your identity and then you have your opinion and they're two separate things and your identity is relatively fixed because it's who you are and your opinion is just according to whatever most recent information you've learned now identity and opinion are so interlinked that if someone tells you something that they don't like about what you said or think you feel as though they're attacking your entire fundamental being and they're not right but it's so hard to not feel taken apart and i think online has really exacerbated this feeling that but what i say is who i fundamentally am whereas we're all just trying stuff out to see what fits we're all so disassociated from ourselves that it's really really hard to know exactly who you are until sometimes you try saying out loud loud and if you're around people who don't give you the space to do that then i think you're around the wrong people because we're all supposed to figure it out you don't know everything even on your deathbed you don't know everything life is one long lesson yeah of chaos and what i love about what you just said is like the identity part is also so important because we place we place limiting self-beliefs on ourselves based on who we think we are and so with identity for a long time i would say i just don't have the patience for that i'm an impatient person right well is that truly who i am or is that actually a skill that i could develop and work on by doing certain activities maybe i could start reading maybe i could meditate maybe i could do cold showers or something to actually build a part of my muscle that could make me a more patient person so anytime i start to go into limiting self-beliefs as to i can't do a podcast with no note cards because i can't think on my toes then all of a sudden i'm putting a label on myself and i'll never escape that bucket so i love the idea of identity being this fluid thing that we actually have control over um so once you actually start taking control over your life and you start saying that hey i'm flipping this switch at 26 years old you are no longer you know going to be and my form of taking control was to release control how does your life get better from there well it's not always an upwards trajectory i don't want everyone to think then it gets really easy there will be moments where you know it's it's a teething period yeah where you have to learn the boundaries by taking the risks so sometimes you say a bit too much honesty at the wrong time or to the wrong person or sometimes you offend everyone or sometimes you do a thing that goes badly and you embarrass yourself in front of everyone well take me through just like physically where are we in your life at this period so is this where you decide that you're going to move to the united states yeah you're going to pursue a career two years into my little experiment of saying no to everyone this is while you're still in london yeah when i'm still in london i uh at 28 i have like a breast cancer scare and there's loads of breast cancer in my family and i've lost a lot of family members to it so uh they find a lump in my breast and they biopsy it um which is when you just take a little sample of it and you have to wait a week five business days to get the results back and during that week i made a list of everything i would do if it turns out not to be cancer and the number one of that was move to america because i'd grown up watching american tv so i was like okay i'm gonna go and i didn't know exactly where in america i was gonna go but i knew that i just wanted to see it and i only really planned on going for a year 11 years later and and so when it came back i was like okay i'm gonna go and i didn't have cancer and they were able to remove it and i wouldn't need chemo or anything um i i googled how long after a big operation you can fly and it said six weeks so i was like boom i booked my ticket for six weeks to the day from my operation and i got a one-way ticket to los angeles it was your like did you have money in your bank account did you have contacts i had a little bit of savings in my bank account when i left like a little bit like enough for like six months of rent and i was like okay i'm gonna go and i'm gonna go and i'm gonna i had no visa no plan no friends no contact no idea what i was gonna do and if you're a woman being 30 is old to start from scratch in such a competitive industry so i was like i don't think i can be on tv anymore i'm gonna try my hand at writing that's a thing i've never really done before and and who knows maybe i'll be good at it so i wrote this script that i had been conjuring up in my head for years and i was like i'm gonna go and i'm gonna go and i'm gonna go and i'm gonna be good at it so i wrote this script that i had been conjuring up in my head for years and i showed it to someone and they showed it to someone and then they sent it to this manager and they were like i think this girl who's arrived in town is interesting you should meet her and so he did and he signed me and then the audition for the good place came along and and they needed someone tall and annoying and silly and he asked me if i would go for it and i was like no i don't know how to act like that's too far even for me this is now too far like ted danson is gonna be in this show i can't like this is taking too long i'm gonna go and i'm gonna go and i'm gonna go and i'm gonna go the piss it was the first time in ages i'd felt some resistance where i was like this is this is disrespectful like to take a man with a level of craft was it exciting at the same time or was it like it was ludicrous it was just ludicrous it just felt disrespectful so i was like no i'm not like i don't know how to people go to school for this i was like this this felt a little bit it it's not the same but it felt the same as someone going this person really needs um a brain transplant can you step in i don't know how to do that um obviously acting is easier than uh neurosurgery but i just felt so underqualified and undeserving but that little voice of my head was like why not it would be funny it would be funny just to go and see what happens and the worse it goes the more embarrassing this audition is the better the story will be thinking about how good the story will be if something goes wrong makes me almost too free because i almost want it to go wrong you know i i i'm almost willing for it to go wrong so that the story is funny because your friends they don't want to hear the stories about how great something went they want disaster they want relatable chaos uh so that little devil on my shoulder was like gosh the audition you're not going to be able to tell me the story and at the time i was writing a column about my life in la uh you know for cosmo and so i went i did not expect to get it and then for some reason they cast me as one of the leads in what would go on to become like one of the defining cult comedies of my generation i don't know how i survived because i was i was fighting for my life on that show i was fighting for my life on that show on episode like four they were like pretend you're falling into a sinkhole and all you have to do is lie on a green mat And there's like a hundred people in the room watching you, screaming as if you're in terrible danger while lying on a green blanket. And it's so embarrassing. And you're not trained in how to do this convincingly. And you're a stiff British person, you know, who isn't particularly playful. And you have to do it take after take. And you just have to do it again and again and again from different angles. And I'm so impressed with myself that I survived the embarrassment of putting myself out there like that. And I'm so grateful to myself that I did. And I recognized early that it's much more embarrassing to only do something halfway. The people who get away with the craziest things like the jackass. The jackass guys or, you know, all kinds of people are the ones who commit all the way to the point where it's so bold, you can't even laugh at them because they're laughing first. And so that's how I approached The Good Place. But what a mad, what a mad time. And in the run up between my moving to Los Angeles and then getting The Good Place, I wasn't working. I just met this musician who I didn't realize. I was going to be with for the next decade. And so we were just, I just jumped on his tour bus and I didn't know what I was doing. I was like living almost famous, not thinking about the fact that I'm 30 and I need to survive. With a clinically proven electrolyte blend and no artificial colors or flavors. Great tasting. Gatorade, hydrates better than water. Is it in you? With Share My Trip from Uber, you can send your live trip location to the ones who matter most. Like Dan and Hannah, who always wait up to make sure their daughter gets back to her college dorm room. Or Tiffany, who's running late as usual and her friends are tracking her trip to make sure she's actually on her way. Look, she's right there. She's three minutes away. Or Sam, who never goes anywhere without her roommate knowing exactly where she is. Some journeys are meant to be shared. Share your ride in real time with Share My Trip on Uber. I don't think I can be your friend, Isabella said. Rebecca's stomach flipped. This is the love story of real hinge couple Isabella and Rebecca. Written and read by me, Tammy Denton Hurst. Listen to the free audio book now. So you met your partner before you were a fan. Well, you were still somewhat famous, but mainly in the UK. No, but only in England. Like I was completely unknown here. I love that. And so we started dating when I had no job, no nothing. And then I completely ran out of money. And I was like, okay, time to go to work. Which is how I even heard about the audition in the first place. Because I was like, I'll do anything. I'll host, you know, there was a magic show that they were looking for a host for. I was like, I'll learn magic. I'll do anything. Just give me money. And so. I had $17 left in my bank account the day that I got The Good Place. That show literally saved my ass. Wow. And what was your reaction when you found out you got it? I was walking outside. It was like 8.30 p.m. And it was really late. And no one had called me yet. And it was a Friday. None of my agents had called me to let me know if I had it or not. And I was like, they've probably gone home to their families and it just didn't happen. And they forgot to call. And then suddenly. Suddenly my phone rings and I step outside because I think it's going to be a disappointing call and I want to just do that privately. And so I'm walking around outside my house and I've realized that suddenly there's like 12 people on the call, which is really unusual because normally they just call me one at a time and everyone's being really weird and they're being a bit suspenseful. And then they tell me that I've got The Good Place and they tell me that I'm going to have to earn enough money to be safe. And they tell me that in a month I'm going to be standing opposite my hero, Ted Danson, and living my wildest, beyond my wildest dream come true. It's not even my dream come true because I didn't even dare to dream it. And I was so stunned I had to lie down on the sidewalk next to all kinds of dog poop, I'm sure, and just hyperventilate looking up at the sky. And there's so much of my life I don't remember. Because I was so mentally ill. But that moment I can remember always as if I'm straight back there of the exact moment my life changed in such an extraordinary way. In ways that would go on to be both absolutely brilliant, but also absolutely terrifying and quite punishing because American global fame is a whole other ballgame. And I had not come here for that. And so. So as you experience this level of success, you still have this person inside of you that sort of, you know, sees right from wrong. And now you have learned to call things out that you see, right? That you don't just bury your feelings inside. You've developed this skill. So what are some of those injustices that you decide to. When I was 26, the year of the nervous breakdown, I was also really sick. I had like pneumonia and I was taking loads of steroids. Which is what you need to take sometimes if you are struggling with your health and medicine isn't cutting it. And steroids make you really hungry and they make you retain a lot of water. So I gained a lot of weight really fast. And the UK tabloid media destroyed me over it. They would constantly take pictures of my body from like underneath, pictures of my ass, like pictures of me bending over when I didn't know that anyone was behind me at 7am outside my home. And they would ridicule me. And at that time, I'd just gotten one. One of the biggest jobs in broadcast history. I'd made history as the first woman in 60 or 70 years to host one of the flagship shows at the BBC solo. That hadn't happened before. It was a huge moment. And I'm not just a woman, I'm also a South Asian woman. Like this is a big deal. And I didn't lose listeners. Most people lose listeners. I gained 200,000 listeners. So it was just like winds across the board. But all the tabloids reported, they reported all the figures and the ratings of the men on the station, but they just reported that I'd gained 20,000. In several dress sizes. And I was like, I just, I literally just made history. Are you kidding me? And so that was when I first started fighting back. And that was the first time I spoke up in the media where I was like, no, I reject and I rebuke this. This is an appalling way to treat women in this day and age. You know, when I was 12, that's what I believed the world was like. And I was like, surely it's moved on by now. It's been 15 years. And I was so sad to see that it hadn't. So I started calling out the media. I started speaking in Parliament. No one would have heard about it here, but in England, I was really active. And so once I got the good place in my head, it was never a question of, oh, well now you've got this really big, shiny career, so you need to keep your mouth shut so that you can keep all of the shiny gold things. I just thought, oh, great. More people are listening. I have this thing that I'm really passionate about, which is. Is that more your calling, even though you've been acting in financial welfare? For sure. For sure. Like communicating with young people is my greatest passion. Particularly women? Or just across the board? No, across the board. I care about everyone in this world. I have more experience of being a young woman, so therefore I lean towards speaking about young women. But if we are just going to ignore and neglect young men, then they're only going to hurt more young women. So I feel very passionately about everyone being happier. And I was so unhappy as a kid. And I didn't feel like I had any role models who were authentic, who made mistakes, who were messy, who were outspoken, who were passionate. I just felt like I was looking at a bunch of really perfect people. And that made me feel really alienated because then I felt like, oh, well, I'm not perfect, therefore I must not be worth anything as a human being. There must be something really wrong with me. It was for my 12-year-old self that I spoke up. And I was like, right, okay, well, a lot of celebrities to this day. Are just very silent. And they just take the goodies and they don't give anything back much in return. And that makes me very sad and that's what I grew up looking at. And so I wanted to be a different voice for young people and I haven't always executed that perfectly. But it's difficult when you don't have like a handbook or a manifesto to follow. It's difficult if you don't have loads of celebrities who've done the same, so you don't know how to traverse. It's difficult. It's difficult if you don't know how to say something that's controversial or threatening to your industry. You know, I wasn't just talking about women's bodies. I was talking about our entire industry. I was talking about politics. I was talking about global politics. I was talking about mental health. I was talking about racism. These are big subjects that make people uncomfortable and these are inconvenient truths. And if you're an outspoken young brown woman, people really don't want to hear it from you. And I just didn't, I didn't execute it perfectly. But that's also not my thing. That's my responsibility too. And I think if I'm a role model for anything, I think I'm a role model for being able to make those mistakes. and carry on and keep learning in public i had a whole podcast for five years about showing that i don't know the answers and bringing on people who are smarter than me to teach me and i tried to destigmatize learning and i think i've done a really good job of that publicly and if i leave any you know stain of myself if i have any legacy i hope it's that i hope it's encouraging people especially young women to see that you you're allowed to make mistakes you're allowed to get it wrong you're not supposed to know it all in your 20s you're supposed to figure it out and you figure it out by being you know by taking risks and not all of those risks are going to pay off but but my god when they do it's phenomenal and i've done so much more good than bad i've achieved so much more good than bad and the press like to focus on my my minor negative moments because they're scared that young people will be inspired to also use their voice to make change they make an example out of me they're like they try to embarrass me and they can't because i can see the good that i'm doing i get letters every day about how i've changed people's lives or i've saved someone's life with their eating disorder or their mental health and i'm i'm so thrilled to have had the privilege to get to do that and i really want young people to know that the media lies yeah they don't want you to know the truth the truth is is that using your voice brings so much more positivity and friendship into your life and i remember like when i first started being outspoken in my career in america it went really well at first like scary well where everyone was like oh yes this is amazing you're amazing and what were you speaking up about i was speaking up about feminism and i was speaking up it was the me too movement that had just dawned and i was speaking up about feminism and i was speaking up about i was talking about um mental health and i was talking about eating disorder culture and i was you know i was very out there very controversial in the way that i was speaking lots of bad language being very callous and you're new to the market like everybody brand new and everyone's like who is this brown girl who can't shut up and they loved it they loved me and they were like yeah say more say more and i was being egged on by everyone and you know the headlines were like the feminist hero we need and i was named as one of time magazine's 25 most influential people and i was on the cover of all the vogues and at the front row of all the fashion shows and and and everyone wanted to be seen with me and was inviting me to places like people that were way more famous and i didn't understand what was happening but i knew it was very bad you knew it was bad i felt sick the whole time just because you knew this was something i know this system even back then you knew the system yeah i mean i've been you know interested in pop culture since i was a little kid so i'd watched this happen to but then i guess why not start a doing interviews because i'm stubborn and because i really cared and because i didn't care about the cause more than anything i didn't think my career was going to last that long anyway so i was like you weren't supposed to be there yeah i've crashed the wedding like you've got to do what you can say what you can before they throw me out i didn't think i was ever going to get another job after the good place i was always i'm always waiting to get kicked out so i'm always like just say stir up whatever you can and say all the truth you can before you're before you don't have the phone anymore old enough to know like i'd kind of had that experience a little bit when i was 26 because imagine having that as a teenager or something exactly and it does happen to teenagers and it happens to young people and people who want to be famous on tiktok like someone can go from complete anonymity working on a farm to suddenly being like yeah you know tiktok famous within three days so i think most people will go through an experience like that and say look i'm i've got sort of all this success right yeah i'm guessing you're not going to be able to you're in a good financial place you're in a happy relationship you've experienced fame i think a lot of people would just say like hey you know what i'm just going to kind of go dark now and just enjoy the fruits of my labor everyone told me to do that yeah and then i thought to myself okay a bit like what you're describing i was like i have it all i could just stop and go away now and what is your partner telling you at this point he's begging me to stop i was so disillusioned yeah with the world that i was like what am i what have i been fighting for who have i been fighting for and it's the people that you fight for that are going the hardest at you so you're like what is happening oh even the people that you were trying to help you felt like were turning against you so why do you think because they want they expect a woman to be a perfect savior and if you care about anything or do you mean like the people that are struggling with body image issues i mean the whole community but also they don't see you as like that chubby out of place child that struggled in high school they see you as like the cover of there must be a catch why would she have all this privilege and keep throwing herself on the fire there must be like she's either crazy or she's got an agenda and because i've got a british accent no one presumes it's like i'm crazy but actually i'm just crazy no i'm joking and so i think now it's been so long that i've worn the public down and they're like oh my god she really cares and then i thought if i go away then i'll be another woman who got told she wasn't perfect and was run out of town and then all the girls that follow me will see that i got bullied and i just left so for them i now have to stay yeah and kind of do this the way a dude would do it i carried on and then i you know yeah all my brand deals had gone away and like you know the people who used to want to parade me around at parties suddenly didn't want to text back and you lose like all your currency for a while yeah and it's isolating and it's cold yeah but then you also learn who your real friends are true and those people rule and then they become your like family but also and you have those people now yeah are they in london oh and we're so tight they're all over the world i have the most amazing friends in the world when did you decide to move back by the way oh i'm kind of back and forth all the time so i just yeah i just i have to move back i have a house here i have you know an apartment there um but within a few months i booked a really fun game show and then a few months after that i booked marvel i said no at first because i was still kind of do you always say i was still a bit shook sometimes yeah i think when i say no the first time is normally a sign that it's a good thing but i think i was still no to getting but again i was like yeah i feel like a bit shook and i was like no i don't think i don't think the world is ready i don't think i'm ready to go back into that kind of that level of scrutiny because marvel i have to do this i have to do this for the girls i have to do this for disobedient women i have to do this to show young people that there is life after death after the death of your reputation so i went i did it i got it it was the most amazing job ever and then i was just back and then i booked star trek and then i booked dc super pets with with the rock and keanu reeves and kevin hart and i my podcast did really well and i just learned that oh my god oh my god life continues no one ever told me that no one ever said yeah life continues on the other side of people's approval and it's just been so much more fun this time around because now i'm not afraid of the media i'm not afraid of people feeling however they want to feel about me i'm so authentic what i am off screen is who i am on screen yeah and so now i know that the i'm very honest i'm not always very likable i don't always have likable perfect opinions and the people who follow me which is like seven million across the platforms which is it's a lot of people yeah for some rando from england and they know exactly who i am and they follow me for me and and i'm at true peace now yeah and i feel so comfortable in my skin i'm not referring to myself as a hero here but the thing that a coward and a hero have in common is fear and so i'm not afraid of the media i'm not afraid of the media i'm not afraid of the you just have to make the choice which way you're going to let that fear navigate you and so that's what i've done and it might all blow up in my face i'm sure it will i'm almost willing it to so i can go to bed finally well for someone that doesn't believe in redemption arcs it certainly sounds like you've had one and you're at the peak of your career and you're continuing to speak out about the things that matter to you and you care about and you're impacting so many people and not just young people honestly like as someone that's older than you by a year oh yeah calm down i feel super inspired and you know especially that you have sort of that brown background and seeing you know how much of an advocate you are for things that you believe in and just the things beyond like fame money material success which i think so many of us are chasing the fact that you're chasing impact and leaving much more than a stain but a beautiful art piece legacy yeah it's been just a true honor having you on the show thank you and i've really we've talked about things in this interview that i've never really gone into depth on and i really appreciate the opportunity to do that and we we probably wouldn't have done that if we had a different type of interview so thank you for giving me the space to say truly how i feel about everything that went down it's very liberating to finally have an opportunity to talk about it realistically as to what it was like um and i hope that that young people who might be going through something at school or at college or at work right now can hear this and really feel my message and see me as a living example and as i was going to say earlier like you know this might all blow up in my face again but who cares i'm that's the whole point of the adventure of life right and and i think that we just need to not take things too seriously and realize that life is not a test it's just an adventure so lean in on any journey using uber it helps to know you're getting into the right car pin verification adds an extra step to make sure your ride is your ride before the trip begins your app gives you a unique pin just tell it to your driver and they'll enter it in their app before the ride can start hey what's your pin two five three eight that way you know you're in the right car taking the right trip and your driver knows you're the right passenger make sure your ride is your ride with pin verification from uber one more way uber is putting you in the right car safety at every turn learn more on the uber app should she say that about the kisses is that weird she doesn't care she presses send this is the love story of real hinge couple daniel and roisin written and read by me rufy thorpe listen to the free audiobook now fall is the perfect time to refresh and reorganize your space at the home depot find power tools and tool sets starting at fifty dollars to help tackle projects home updates and more whether you're drilling brackets to support new shelving or sharpening your hedge trimmer blade with an angle grinder the home depot has the tools you need to check projects off your list shop labor day savings at the home depot and gear up for fall projects with the right tools to keep your projects 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