“I Met The Head Of The Entire UFO Program!” - Grant Cameron

Whenever I feel like I'm getting close to the truth, your name always shows up. It's like, "Well, Grant Cameron put that out, Grant Cameron knows about this." I've liked so many documents and I'm saying, "Does anybody ever just leak a document? Am I the only person that's leak a document here?" You're one of the few people who've had direct interactions with Eric Walker, who's been rumored to be on this sort of majestic 12 committee. What was that interaction like? Oh, it was wild. He said at one point, they were talking about the MJ-12 committee and he cuts a guy off, said, "Look, let me ask you a question." When he was about ESP, and the guy had no answer, he said, "Look, unless you understand about ESP and how it works, you will not be taken in by the control group." When he said control group, what do you think he meant? He described them as a group of elites. If you were invited into their group, I would know. The secret societies with the guys with the money that the people who went to the Cosmos club were the insiders. Hillary was really into this thing. They talked about the seven-year plan. They were going to promote the stuff. And John Podesta was actually saying, "Ask her about the aliens." And she was going to go on Kimmel and she went on there and he didn't ask her the UFO question. No way. How do you know that? It's in the Podesta emails. And then she. If you listen to Jim Seven guy and he says, "Just because you got bodies and crafts doesn't mean you know what's going on." He said, "All the size stuff is right. Everything." I wrote the whole book on UFO skypods where I write 36 people that came to me and all said, "I've flown the craft." Really? Well, yeah. Do you believe we have crash retrieval universe engineering programs? So Ron Tendolfi ran the Weird Desk? What's the Weird Desk? The Weird Desk is supposedly the place to see eye where all the weird stuff comes in, all the paranormal stuff. It's like the ex files of the CIA. It's a really weird stuff. So you think Ron Tendolfi exists at the top of the UFO pyramid? Or a government perspective? He's been at the CIA since '84. He's rumored to brief the president and he says, quote, "People have always wondered what it's like to go into the next world." There's been a break through. He looks over at this John guy. Next time John goes to the desert. A number of us here will go into the next world and come back again. And I went, "Wow." I've never seen things like that before. How is this possible? Nothing to my attention about this. Dude, existence cannot longer be the night. Today's episode is sponsored by Incogni. One thing that stuck with me from years of interviewing people inside classified programs, intelligence, and very frontier science is that they are ruthless about their digital footprint. 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If you find your information sitting on some random third-party website, you simply paste the link into your Incogni dashboard and their privacy experts handle the takedown. You get unlimited submissions, so take your personal data back now within Cogni. If you're a fan of the show, you probably care about personal privacy. This is one of the best ways I've found to anonymize myself online. Right now, you can use code AmericanAlchemy at incogni.com/AmericanAlchemy for 60% off an annual plan. Again, that's incogni.com/AmericanAlchemy for 60% off an annual plan. Thank you so much to Incogni for sponsoring today's episode. So I'm here with Grant Cameron, and this has been a long time coming up and trying to get you to the States for the longest time. I had to come out to Canada, but I'm really grateful to be with you now because there are many deep threats in UFO world. Whenever I feel like I'm getting close to the truth, and I'm going through all these interesting people and places and dates and events, and your name always shows up. Well, Grant Cameron put that out. Grant Cameron knows about this, so I'm really excited to speak to you, and I think this should be a lot of fun. I'm honored to be here because you're one of the guys that's getting the message out, and that's basically what it's all about. It's not about money, it's. Me has always been like a chess game. Because I was very good at chess when I was a little kid, I stopped playing because I started losing a couple of games, and I didn't want to lose. But to me, it's like a chess game. I saw something, and I just determined I'm going to figure this thing out. And one of the problems we have in the UFO community is getting the message out to raise consciousness, and so I appreciate what the job you've done in terms of moving the message to the general public. I'm doing my best. I don't even know if there's a concrete or discreet message. It's more like I'm just trying to figure it out myself, and I'm filming that. And so I think through that, maybe that creates a ripple effect. And there are others who do a great job with Chris Ramsey, and we're in Luigi's office. He's making an amazing movie about Bob Lazar. There are all these people, and I do think it spreads, and the whole thing grows. But you really helped kick it all off. I want to talk about how you got into this whole field. You had an experience, right? When was that? 1975? Me of 1975. I actually started in February of 1975. I lived in Manitoba, which is the province right in the middle. It went to Pig Manitoba. It's the coldest major city in the world. And a small town, about 35 miles southwest, it's called Carmen. Suddenly, it was all over the news. There's this thing called Charlie Red Star. It's flying around there. And I was at university at the time, and I was kind of depressed with where I was. I was trying to figure out, like, calculus and chemistry and stuff. And I was like, "Hi, how the hell are you going to make any money with this stuff? Like, what am I going to do with this stuff?" I couldn't figure out why I was there. And I was expected to go, because I was kind of a smart kid, so I was expected to go. I just couldn't figure out what I was going to do, and then the sightings started. The object appears to be stationary just above the ground. Then, almost simultaneous, with a flash which appears in the sky, the object moves north at blinding speed. And I said to my friend that we used to drive around the city, "Do nothing." You know, we just drive on the city. I said, "Well, instead of driving around the city, why don't you go out and see what they're looking at?" And I figured I was like, I always describe it as the lottery. You buy the ticket to the lottery. There's a chance you're going to win, but you ain't going to see nothing. You're not going to see anything. So we didn't go. We didn't go to May, because I had no interest in it. He had no interest in the subject. So in May, the CKY film was caught on film. They caught this thing jumping from the ground to 5,000 feet in the air in three frames, four frames. We haven't got the actual film, so we can't determine exact coming to frames. So in the whole horizon lights up, one frame, the entire horizon lights up. And there was a TV crew got it. And so, they analyzed this thing in eight minutes. Documentary, they did. They had it framed by frame. This thing is moving. How it jumped, the flash frame, it went up. And they were eight miles away. And it went from the bottom of the frame, so the top of the frame and they were eight miles away. And just amazing things. So I said, "Holy cow, look at the cut out of film. Let's go." So we drove out there and we drove in this town called Carmen. We drove out. We drove in. I had no understanding about astronomy or anything. I'm looking at planet stars. I couldn't tell a planet from a star. It's like, "Oh, what are they looking at? What's there we looking at?" And we drove for an hour and then my friend said, "Division's driving." He said, "Okay. We'll drive into Carmen one more time. If you don't see anything, let's go home." He said, "Fantastic. This has been a total waste of time. I knew we wouldn't see anything." So we turned the car to go back in and boom. It appeared from the left to the right and everything in the car. Nobody said, "Is that what they're looking at?" Because we were looking at, "What are they looking at?" And nobody said, "Is that what they're looking at?" And everybody was like, "There it is." And it was just so weird. And by looking back, it came in so close and so clear and so slow right in front of the car. Just flew in front of the car. And I was just mesmerized because I was raised. I was supposed to be a minister. So I was raised very religiously. And it was like the miracles and stuff. And the first thing I thought was, "Oh, look out. There are miracles." Like, "What does it look like?" It was like a plasma object. It was just, and it looked like it was alive. It was just slowly pulsing. It was going so slow and it was maybe 100 feet off the ground, 150 feet, and it came right in front of the road as we were driving. How big was it? Hard to tell because it was at night. But so we say like a small plane or something. But the thing is you have no perspective at night as to what it was. But it was pretty big in the sky. It wasn't a light in the sky. It was an actual object. And you couldn't see the edges. So it was literally on this idea that it gives off this energy, this light that doesn't light anything up. We called it a dead light. And it would just be pulsing along. And I remember it was going across the road and then there was these school buses all parked there. And I was getting out of the car. It was still moving. I'm getting out of the car because I wanted to cross the ditch. And I wanted to go and watch this thing as it got behind the school bus. So I remember seeing between the school bus and just watching this thing. It was just pulsing. It was just flying. Just flying away. So I dragged all my friends. I said, man, you got to see this. This is the most amazing thing I've ever seen earlier. So I dragged all my friends out there. And it was like a party. atmosphere because it's Saturday night or Friday night whatever. So you got kids out there drinking beer on the roads outside the town you know and we were there and there was 20 28 people. I was in the middle of nowhere. I didn't know where we were just we saw these cars parked so we went there and the car beside us had I remember it had it was a career car. There was three guys and there was a girl and he had a camera a night-con camera that had the first motor drives on it where they could advance the film very fast. So the second night we were sitting there and all my friends said oh we're going home. I said no no. Got to see this. It's the most amazing thing here. Stay tuned. Nope. We're going back. We're hungry. We're going back to Winnipeg for pizza at all my friends left and it was about nine of us left when it finally came. So we were sitting there and there was just like a flash cube flash in the sky and these kids are sitting in in the in the field and they yell back at me. Is that it? There you go. I guess so. It didn't look like my son first. I guess so because it's so weird. And like boom. Boom. It's called the ping pong ball. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. It's jump around the sky. Boom. Boom. Boom. Boom. And I can still remember it was just like a football game. People were swearing screaming yell and jumping up and down and this guy could just hear the motor. The camera was going click. This is click. This is as this thing was coming. I see unloading the cameras. This thing is coming towards us and the girl couldn't see it because it was jumping around the sky. It says I can't see it. So it was show it to me in every single order or just sitting there and it came in and then it appeared like the same first night. It was like this red pulsing object and had this sort of a green glow on the back of it came right at us and it just sort of made this turn and it sort of went back sort of it came from the West and went back in as a Northwest and I remember I was watching it. This card took off the gravel's line because it goes so slow. They were chasing it. So I was sitting there and I was looking at it and the thing that stayed with me my entire career is 51 years now. I looked at it and I go that is so cool. They could be an extra trust for another planet. Well what the hell is it doing? It's not doing anything and we had a joke because it would be sort of showing up there all the time and it was like a small town. There was no military. There was no industry. There was no nuclear. There was nothing there and it was like why are they here? I was asked the guy that ran the airport and we had a joke. We said like American beer was very water is a low alcohol at that time and Canadian beers always had eye alcohol. So he said he's doing a beer run. He's coming from the United States. He's picking up some beer and he goes back to the United States. So I asked the guy later on. I went thirty five years later. I went back to this guy, Bob Demert, who is the guy's real wild guy. He rebuilt the zero Japanese zero and built all these fluid in the battle of Britain, the movie. He flew his zero and stuff. He's just a wild guy had an airfield there and he was sort of the tour guide. So I said Bob why would he hear? Why did he come to Carmen? He said I told you. I said Bob I don't know. I'm doing election in the States. I just want to review what happened here. And he said I told you in seventy five. I told you what happened. Why they're here. And I said Bob I still don't know why they're here. And he said the nuclear weapons. I told you the nuclear weapons. That's why they were here. And then I said oh yeah, don't you remember I told that story about the guy, the Air Force guy that I talked to at the bar on the on the border that they had this thing cornered over top of a nuclear weapon. And they were told to ram it and they came in and the guy that was in the bar said it's not worth my life. And he pulled out of the out of the formation and the thing just took off through where he was, he left a hole and this thing took off. And then it made sense because we always knew that North Dakota was a nuclear superpower or if it had been a country country, it would have been a nuclear superpower. It had the mine outfield and then it had the Grand Force field which is the one that we were involved with had a hundred and fifteen minute man nuclear missiles in each field. And so 300 nuclear missiles and we'd go into the States and we'd see them. They'd be in a field. They'd be one out of field. You see the fence around it off in a farmer's field or something like that. And then another one. So we always knew there were nuclear weapons. We knew that there was ever a nuclear attack. We were gone because we were sixty miles north of the border. And every tenth, you know, Russian missile would come short, ran us out of us. You know, we're gone because that's the number one target. It's not Washington. It's not L.A. The number one target is the missiles. So then this is the Russians would target these missile fields. North Dakota would be obliterated because if you don't get the missiles, you're not going to know what happens. So what happened in 75 in February, they opened what was called the Mikkelsen Stanley ABM site. It was the only anti-balistic missile unit that everyone operation on the ISD. So there was supposed to be three. One was in the east somewhere in Wisconsin or something. One was in the Coleman North Dakota, which is the one that we were involved with. And then there was supposed to one at Malstrom. And they only built the one in North Dakota. So they put in another hundred nuclear missiles. So it's 300. Now they put this field, maybe, you know, a couple acres with all these missiles. And the idea was, this is pre-star wars. So what they're going to do is they have these five megatons missiles and they would launch. So if the Russians launch, they're going to try to hit it in outer space. So they launched these missiles. And then if those missed, then they had these one megatons sprint missiles that would go up and create this shrapnel over top of the missile silos and shred the Russian missiles that was coming down. So they put these hundred nuclear missiles. And that's when the UFO started on our side. We were only, like, 25 miles north of the border where all these stuff was happening. And Nicole was just on the other side of the border. And they had the big radar. It was called the Nixon pyramid, which was right on the border. And this is one that would pick up the Russian missiles and stuff like that. And I didn't know that at the time. It was maybe 30 years later that I suddenly realized they put all these new nuclear missiles. In November of 1975, they made an agreement with the Russians. And they started taking them out because of all the things with the dummy warheads and stuff like that, that they realized there's no way you can defend this kind of stuff. So they basically stopped. And this missile field was taken out. So I think they spent six billion dollars in 1975. It was there from February till November of 1975. And at whole time, we were inundated with the UFO. It's even there was a missile seller right on the border. And there was a UFO landing about two miles away from it. And there was a famous abduction case called the Larsen case in North Dakota in 1973. In 1975, spring, summer of 1975, where there was two minute nuclear missiles within sight of where they were abducted. And this is a big story of it back in that time because Travis Walton had been abducted yet. 75 was a big year. I got involved. I got dragged down the rabbit hole. Linda, how got dragged down the rabbit hole? What happened in the Larsen case? She was abducted. She was going to an appointment in Bismarck. So she's going from Fargo to Bismarck. And then just outside of Beaver, North Dakota, this is where the abduction took place. And she describes the beings. And they're not grays. There's some weird type of beings. And they regressed her. And the National Enquirer came in. So it was a big story. It was all over the place. Everybody knew about Pascagula. Everybody knew about Betty and Barney Yale. And this is one of the big ones that the National Enquirer with their 15 million readers got very popular at that time. So we started putting this all together. Same as Stan Romanoch. His father, he claimed, worked on the missiles. And he came from from North Dakota. That's where his origin was. So Linda, how got called in in middle of that year? What happened to Stan Romanoch just for general audience? Well, he got he had pornography stuff on his on his on his computer. Now he said it was set up. And I talked to him maybe two years ago. No, I mean, what happened to him with respect to contact. He was a contact major contact. He had all these beings. They actually had a photograph of the of one of the hybrids that his wife took. She was sitting in her audience with the wraparound eyes. And they had like when I went to them, I said to his wife, I said, are you going to use things of shadow people and the photographs of shadow people? It's just, yeah, you want some. She said these photographs of shadow people. They just like total not so host. And so did he, he lived around there or his father was, his father was working there. They moved to, he was just north of Denver. And so everybody go see him. Like John Alexander went to see him. And I heard that John Alexander had been there. And everybody said, oh, he's hoaxing the thing. And they would tell me, like the me fun people said, oh, you're going to go see Stan Romanoch because he said, ain't we coming to the house for a couple of days? Because he has like videos of like beings coming into his house. And he has he has a big story. Nobody knows about. And that is the Audrey story. So the Audrey story. And there's a couple of films with him at the phone where Audrey phones up. And it's this voice message that you had back at the time. And it's like a phone message. So it's an actual voice. So it's the Audrey phone message. And it's this voice. And they're calling him star seat. And they're saying star seat this. And they were giving these messages. And he would have it on tape or the phone would ring and you'd do this whole thing. So everybody said, I stands making it up. He said, hey, what's going to say? Most people don't know. There was 80 over 80 phone calls, Audrey phone calls to all sorts of people. There was a guy who actually was with me with Tim Taylor, who had a bunch of him. He was going to do a book on them. He played a couple, a couple of Audrey messages. And he had two phones. He was like, what are the Audrey messages? Well, their message is to come from the beings that he's in contact with. Wow. And you're an absolute encyclopedia about all this stuff. So I want to make sure that we mention a thing that's not only accessible to people who are in the UFOs, but you explain what it is to a wider audience. So this guy, nobody knows. So this guy's a big business guy. And he's the guy who had the cabin where I met Tim Taylor in Pennsylvania. But he's a big business guy in New Jersey. He told me I had two phones, one phone for business and the other phone. And he would know before the phone rang, Audrey was going to follow an Audrey phone. And then he would get these messages. And he was sort of a big business guy. He was backing Stan Romanoff until the charges came where Stan got pulled up on these charges. And then the guy pulled out. What were the Audrey messages? Well, everybody was getting different messages. I gave you the one which sort of blew me away. Paula Harris. She said, she got a message. I said, that's nothing. I got a phone message from Audrey. I said, you got a message from Audrey too. And she said, I got a message. And I said, well, tell me. Well, it's nothing. I said, well, but Stan Romanoff got him. And then, um, The guy in New Jersey was getting him and then Public affairs guy from you found got a message on his own phone It came with his phone number and this is before we could do this thing make your phone ever comes on his own phone He's phone phone is phoning him and Aubrey's on there He played me the message so I knew there was these people getting these Audrey messages all of a place And nobody made a public that these Audrey messages so Paula's was she'd gone to a Stephen Greer event at Kreston Colorado and she'd actually bought five acres because she's thinking of making some mistakes I was a Stephen Greer doing an event at Kreston. Well, he was doing an event there. What was it? Well, it was like one of his CE5 events that he has, you know We're in California or keep Florida and stuff. He was doing one there cuz Kreston I believe is a center of yeah There was sort of this woman who started the it's she had all these ideas of like sync syncretic ideas of you know Some universal religion or something. Yeah, I think and it's just a beautiful place So Paula had bought five acres there and we had she was gonna put an establishment and Greer had acres there. It's all they got and so she came back the first time she went She came back and then she said she said yourself boy, that's beautiful I'd like to go the phone ring and Audrey's on the phone says don't worry. You'll go back What yeah, well, this is a kind of phone call this guy from New Jersey said he knew when the one Audrey was going to phone And this is a part that I saw Audrey seems to be psychic Well, Audrey's in those who all the people involved in the case Well, so nobody knew that all the people in the case were getting There was even specifically in the Romana case or in which case well the Romana. This is all connected to Romana It's all connected to Romana all these all these people were connected so everybody who's investigating Stan Romanoch is getting Calls from this like not all but there was quite a few. I was picking up more and more There was a guy at the he's on the Mufon board. He come he comes to me says. I want to hear play as tape I was a pencil in Pennsylvania I guess two years ago and he said I want to play as tape and he's playing this tape and I go and he's good with star seat And I said is that Audrey? And he said how do you know that? I said you got a call to and said yeah That's like what was your call that you got I didn't get I didn't ever I was I was Going all these people and saying you know you got to take the stem Romana case no matter what what happened at the end You got to take this is a real case. I mean, this is a real deal. Do you think that video is real of the being like Showing his face through the window. He's like inside his house, and you know what I'm talking about yeah Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, there's this controversy. You can never really tell but I I think because he had all sorts of stuff With the guy on the side there's so many bizarre stories for the guy they take the side he's citing office house and stuff like that He just like I didn't know about the nuclear connection, and I didn't know about the John Alexander kind of yeah John went so what I was doing a taping in L.A. And I heard John Alexander had been there because that's what his thing was and I said I'll go I mean I'll go there. I'll go there for a couple days I'll tell you and I'll tell you nothing happened to tell you something happens I'm gonna tell you what happened. So I was going there and Romanic had the flu He was just sick as a dog so I talked to his wife He case serves a distance. He said I can't do it So I kept going I went back to Canada and stuff like that, but When I was going there, then people were telling me don't let them touch a computer Don't let them touch a computer because your computer will go Wapo when stand touches because they were sort of electromagnetic anomaly Chris but so has the same thing You mean he gave me a list. I don't know if Chris gave you the list of all the stuff He'd done like two washers three dryers a lot of the way answers seem to you, especially come super experiences Or you know people who've been implanted or abducted you know many times often have sort of electromagnetic anomalies Involved with their body. It's sometimes they'll shut phones off. Yeah, the fry electronic. Yeah, so Romaneck was like that Oh, yeah big time big time and and so so when I heard John had gone He was he was we were on the set and John was sitting in the back and people were really mad I think it was a Schmidt came out and he was just curious John Alexander's there and he's watching everybody's testimony and stuff like that And I'm thinking John's there and then sure enough it went there and I you're in the dark So he's in the dark and you're on camera You can't see and John comes in and he goes into the dark. He's sitting there And he's I guess he's listening to everybody's things and making notes or for whatever reason I don't know. Yeah, and he's he's one of these guys that seems to pop up When anybody has an experience. He seems to go take notes evaluate what's going on for himself For somebody else, yeah, and then sometimes kind of partially debunks the things. Well, that's what you did really there Because because I I said, oh, what the hell? So I saw him and he said he had my book and he wanted me to sign the books I said yeah, okay, I figure what the hell because he's a kind of a scary looking guy Uh-huh. He's got all the martial arts and stuff. You know, I want to get a mad winner. So I said hey, John I heard you're at Romaneck's house and he said yeah, I was there and I said really Did anything happen because I heard stuff happen. He said anything happen and he goes Yeah, some stuff happened. I go really something happened. See I was passing and I said what do you mean? There's nothing and then he said he said well Wouldn't the backyard and he took the flashlight and he unscrews the flashlight till you know It's sort of on off and it's off and puts them on the picnic table and then Romaneck starts asking questions and the flashlights There's asking questions. I said that happened, John. Are you serious that was going on? He said yeah, it's just paranormal That's nothing on you. It's just paranormal forever. What that's what so how is this flashlight answering the question like one two Yes, no yes, no binary code. Yeah, like one for yes to for no and I couldn't believe it and then John said I said paranormal It's just paranormal nothing to it and they go I just so I was prepared I was going because a lot of people just sort of criticize on the back and and he said anybody wants to come to my house I said I'll take up the deal. I'm not sure I you know, I'll see if something happens and I heard something that come down the Anorbit come down the hall and John was confronted with this orb. I hear all these stories you know about and so when I said to John When I said did something happen he said yeah, and I go holy shit these people down the truth. This is this is there But your original experience with this plasma orb which is so interesting It was in proximity to this nuclear missile base because that seems to be whenever I hear it's in proximity to nuclear I go, oh, that's definitely a genuine UFO Do you have any video of that or photos or anything from back then or of the 1975 experience? We have there's professional photographs of the the UFO. There's three Amazing yeah, so then you're you're just hooked at that point you go I want to figure out what's going on here is that well that was the whole thing It's so I said I don't know what's going on But somebody's got to know what's going on here And so then there was all these synchronicities even this was a synchronicity because the guy that took the film That's what the film is missing the guy that took the film he was sitting there and they'd been going out every night and paying Over time these guys and then the guy said the last thing he said that's it you guys want to chase this stupid UFO You can go on your own. I'm not paying anywhere over time So all the people who were on the crew that caught this thing jumping off the ground and it's in a documentary UFOs that has begun the M and Ager They did a documentary in 75 and 79. They really released it called UFOs that has begun and Jack Ballet introduces this CKY film May 13th 1975 cameraman Alan Carr of station CKY in Manitoba Photographs two separate sightings overcoming in front of fall witnesses So when I talked to the guy who did the film he wasn't even a cameraman He was a film editor in in the in the studio and because Cameron didn't want to go on his own time He said I'll go and so he'd never shot a camera and then 75 of the big cameras and all and he has this camera set up on the road And he's telling me the story he says you know, I'm looking to the viewfinder and this thing's on the ground and it glows up And it glows back down it glows up Glows back down and then he says well they didn't get anything night before I Next time it glows up. I'm gonna I'm gonna shoot so I've got something on film And it was almost like the UFO said you're ready get ready and as he pushed the trigger the thing jumped in the air And then he then he was following it and every time he moved the camera He moved the camera and he didn't pick up anything But he stopped the camera at 12 o'clock So when it was on the ground and jumped up he caught it there and then it started to move across the sky and he followed it And at 12 o'clock he sort of stops He could get a film reference from stars and stuff like that and to think through the Through the lens and it was doing this wave through the lens You mentioned CE5 and then you have you know, UFOs showing up around nuclear weapons Do you think those are the same thing? So the UFOs that show up based on somebody sort of Engaging in sort of a consciousness protocol and it then you know it comes into their sort of purview Often those are sort of orbs or you know plasma like objects And then you obviously have all this tampering with nuclear weapons You know sometimes actually energy grids. They seem to attract UFOs as well Do you think those are the same phenomena or do you think they're different? Well, I think oh phenomena I'm on the contact modality thing with Ray Hernandez where he gets pulled out of his car I'm doing a lecture on consciousness. He comes to the lecture And then two days later he's in this Miami's and a traffic jam completely stole this into mpr about some guy Making art out of body fat And he's going that's pretty weird now so boom he's in he's sort of in this field And then they're showing this wheel and the wheel is moving it has all these different Images like remote-doing psychic phenomena or UFOs mediums all this sort of stuff And in the middle of his consciousness and the meat the message he gets is you got to quit parsing this stuff It's all the same thing and then bang. He's back in his car And that's when he gets Edgar Mitchell they start the free foundation and they start talking to experiencers. So To me, it's all basically The same thing. It's all connected and the nuclear missiles. I'm a little bit different You can I think you talk more to Jacobs than I do But I don't know there's been a not case since 2010 So my idea about the UFO phenomena is it keeps changing stuff So it's not like people's out there never on nuclear weapons ever on nuclear weapons for 16 years And before that you got to go back many years and every talks to talk about monster that's 67 That's like 67 years ago. You got nothing newer. It's it's like they do that Then they start to crop circles then they stop to crop circles. They could do the medallations Then they stop the medallations now we're doing the orbs and it's almost like they the to keep changing stuff. And people think it's always been the same. In '75 there was no light language, there was no crop circles, there was no beams in the sky, there was really no orbs. When we had close encounters with the orbs in '76 in this area, we called them ground lights. We didn't even know, there was not even the word orbs. So now it's, people always think it's always been the same, but it's changed. And the nuclear missiles was even back in the '50s. That's Wilbur Smith's main message from AFA. So I want to talk about this. You mentioned Wilbur Beesmith. He was involved in something called Project Magnet. He was also in touch with a guy named Robert Sarbacher who was running the Washington National Labs and was doing a lot of, you know, R&D and atomic work for Vannevar Bush at the time. So it was like top nuclear physicist in the US. And they were going back and forth openly about UFOs. I think at one point, Sarbacher says that UFOs are actually classified at two levels higher than the H bomb. And so tell us about that correspondence and Wilbur Beesmith. Yeah. Well, Wilbur was the head radio engineer for the Department of Transfer. He had master's degree in electrical engineering. And he got interested in hypnosis. He wrote an early article in the '40s on hypnosis. And he got interested in the UFO phenomenon. He had Keyhoes books and stuff like that. And then the way he tells the story is I went to Washington because he was negotiating FM radius frequencies. And one of the people at work for him was a metallurgist by the name of Art Bridge who lived really near me in Canada. And he told me he said, well, do you know what Wilbur did? I said, well, he was head radio engineer. No, you know, you really know what he did? I said, no. He said he had a super top security clearance. He ran radio Ottawa. And he said, I said, what's that? He said, well, that's monitoring your Russian communications because he had all the communications. This is all radio then. So he had, they were doing the ionosphere tests, bouncing stuff off the ionosphere and stuff. And Wilbur was in charge of all this. And he was, they had the communication stations. If you see the photograph of the UFO, the flying saucer observatory they'd built, it has at least these towers of communication towers. And it was like basically the NSA of Canada. And he was, he was running this whole thing. So that's what the guy said, you realize he had, he didn't need UFOs to have a top security clearance. So he said he went to Washington and he started asking questions. And then he, people were confirming this. And he said, where the smoke does gotta be fired. And so then he, the, the surbacher thing happened. So to go to the canoes, because it's all done diplomatically. You've got to get permission to talk to people. And at that time it was the, in Canada, it was the defense research board that Wilbur was working with. And there it was the joint research and development board that was headed by Vannevar Bush. So on our side of the border, there was a head guy who got involved. He was down the UFO. He was, uh, Oman Slant was mentioned in the, in the document that Wilbur wrote later, but Wilbur had gone down there and they make these, this agreement that goes through the Cain Embassy. Now those documents are in the Cain files, but they are in Wilbur's files. And I recovered all the Wilbur's files. And we've got this communication with the, with this, it was secretary at the Cain Embassy. So the surbacher was, the set up, the interview was set up with surbacher by the Cain Embassy. And it may have actually been done in the embassy. And so Wilbur goes down there and that's when surbacher's telling them all this stuff, you know, they're insect-like beings. And, uh, you know, I, I, I, I, there's this high classification, flight saucers are real. So then Wilbur comes back and he writes the famous top secret memo. And it was one of the few top secret memos that Cain and government doesn't deny it exists. It's, it's there. And it's in the, it's in the documents and stuff like that. And Wilbur's got his personal copy, which doesn't have the top secret and all that stuff on it. But in there, he, he says five things. And for many years, I only mentioned the first four. And now I just work on the fifth. He said, "Flangsources exists." Based upon, he said, "I talk to American officials." As we said in the documents, he's not talking to people on the street, talking to American officials. And he made this lots of times. He said, "The UFO hardware is not controlled by the Air Force. It's controlled by American officials, not by the Air Force." So he said, "Flangsources exist." It's the most highly classized subject in the United States, rated two points higher than the H-bomb. It's of tremendous significance to the Americans. There's a group headed by Dr. Vannevar Bush who are trying to figure out the Modus operandi. And then the next sentence that came to me in February 2012 popped in my head. The next line of the thing said, "We were also told by American officials that other things might be associated with the flying sauces, such as mental phenomena." The Americans aren't doing very well because they said, "If we're working on the problem, they're willing to exchange credentials and talk to us." So in 1950, they already knew the mental phenomena was part of the UFO thing. It wasn't just nuts and bolts, had this mental phenomena thing. This Oman Slant that he's referring to in the top secret memo is getting this material. He's bringing out an embassy and they're moving it all into the defense department. Wilbur is sending this material and sending the material to Slant. So Slant is the top guy and in the embassy correspondence, there's actually a document that says, "We're waiting for the Americans to make a statement. We're not going to do anything, we're waiting for the Americans to make a statement. All of a sudden, they're going to confirm there's a crash that this stuff is all real." Then there's another document in Wilbur's files, not in the official files, but in Wilbur's personal files that says, "We've sent. Wilbur had this idea about how propulsion worked. He believed it was electromagnetic fields that they were using the electromagnetic fields of the earth for propulsion and stuff like that." So he had put that through and he's in this document. He says it has been sent to. Keyhole took the document on the propulsion to Vannevar Bush and we're waiting for his opinion. It'll be interesting what he says. So you have this connection actually with Vannevar Bush and he's named in the top secret memo. But that didn't come out to 82. I think the top secret memo came out when Wilbur died in 62 and then what happened to me was I had this whole thing where I saw this thing and I said, "Somebody's going to know what's going on." It's funny, Sarbocker also started to become more open about UFOs later in life. I believe in 87, he wrote to William Steinman who had really gone deep on the Aztec crash, but also just general kind of the whole org structure of, you know, Majestic 12 and other sort of, you know. Steinman revealed a lot of stuff. He's the guy who found Walker. Yeah. He's the guy that found Wang, the whole story about Wang. I want to get into both. He moved and he's the guy that phoned. He told me the story about Bill Moore. So Wang had worked on the system. He's in the black opposite of whatever. He's in the legacy program and they move him to Kirkland and then he's in Kirkland. He's a heavy-set guy. He dies of a heart attack or something in '59. So Steinman finds out about him being moved and he worked on the program. So he phones his wife and he's talking to his wife and asking all these questions. Steinman was ruthless. I mean, he was one of the best researchers they're ever seen. He was also worked at Skunk Works and was looking into this stuff so much so that his superiors said, you know, you can't look into this anymore. He kept doing it. They fired him and then he couldn't get a job. He was basically blacklisted in aerospace after that. Yeah. He told me there was helicopters falling around and Indy got into the religious thing. He believed there was some religious thing that he had to pull. And he just told me, don't call me again. I'm out. He's like, boom, he's gone. He got into what does that mean? He got into the religious thing. Well, it was sort of like it was against the religion or something, some sort of thing that it was against what he believed, his wife believed or something like that. It had part to do with why he had pulled out of the thing. But he pulled out instantly and I don't have his files. He had unbelievable files. So he was talking to Mrs. Wang and then he gets a phone call from Bill Moore and Bill Moore says, what are you talking about Mrs. Wang for? Leave her alone. And he said, how do you know I was talking to Mrs. Wang? And he said, I'm just telling you, leave her alone. Forget it. And they said, how do you know I was talking to Mrs. Wang? Were you on the call? And then she just, come over to my house on Wednesday night, something like that. And I'll tell you. And that's when Bill Moore tells the story about the CIA that when he was at university, Bill Moore spoke fluent Russian. So the Russians, they recruited what they do is they recruit people in universities. They start people and they try to bring them in and Bill Moore, spoke Russian and was a pretty smart guy and they recruited him. And what he told me is he said, I didn't work for them. I did some work for them, but I didn't work for them. I just did stuff. But he was, I mean, because we all know that he, you know, made this famous speech at Moofon and said that he was like used by, you know, possibly like the aviary, this group that seemed to be throwing people off the trail, giving people passage material, that sort of thing. But I didn't know that he literally admitted to Bill Steinman, another UFO researcher that the CIA had recruited him essentially as an asset. And then we kind of know that he was also monitoring Bill Steinman's calls. So he was literally keeping tabs on one call, one call for sure, one call at least probably others. If it's just that one, that's crazy. And then, and then Bill Moore had told him that when he got into the UFO thing, he went back to his, his contacts in CIA to help him. That's how he puts a thing together. That makes sense. So here's, here's my question, then, you know, Bill Moore is kind of largely responsible for the Roswell story being resuscitated along with Stan, which is why they grabbed, that's why they went after him. Seven days after he, he went on the publicity tour, he got the first phone call. And that was probably from Dodie, Albuquerque, and said, "The only guy that knows who to talk about." So the intelligence knows how to drag people in. Bill Moore had a super ego. He really thought he was smart and he was smart. He was really smart. Now, I think, they also, I think they probably got to him before that. The reason I think that is, because you wrote the book about the Philadelphia experiment. It's brilliant. Yeah. Well, let me actually think. Was that after or before Roswell was before, right? So Townsend Brown, I think, is really part of a lot of the core secret of all this stuff because it deals with the science that I think is usable in the human context, which is kind of anti-gravity. And they wrote this whole thing about the Philadelphia experiment, which a lot of people don't know, because it's a lore, and it seems so insane, you know, prima facia, the surface-level story is that a ship was zapped from a port in Norfolk, Virginia to Philadelphia, and there was people on board, and some ended up melded to the hole, and, you know, they experienced sort of time, you know, displacement and stuff. And we know actually Townsend Brown, you know, moved from Norfolk, Virginia to LA, actually to work at Martin Vega Corporation, which is pre-Lockied Martin around that time. We also know he suffered a nervous breakdown around that time, and he ran the project. It was a real project. So I wonder if Moore's coverage of that somehow, you know, poked the bear a little bit, and then they came back and said, "Hey, why don't you do some work for us," or something like that. Moore would have had an unbelievable file on Townsend. I mean, he was pretty good. He interviewed the top scientist at Wright Patterson. He had a lot of interviews that, and he put these people all together, they were coming to help him. So they got the first phone call, said, "The only guy who knows what you're talking about," and of course, Bill Moore said, "That's right." And then a couple days later, he's on a radio show, and they said, "There's a call for you," and then it's a guy from off at their first space, and he said, "The only guy who knows what you're talking about." It just happened, like, within 10 days, he had these two phone calls, and then Bill said, "Yeah, I'm the only guy that knows what's going on." And I have a name of that guy, this gives me, but we had a guy, he was the same guy that I think leaked the document about the nuclear missile bases in late 1975. So in late, in October 1975, in November, you had a lowering air force base, a wortsworth air force base, a minor air force base, a hall of air force base, all with UFOs over them. And one of the storage people don't know that Travis was taken on November the 5th to the 10th. In late the Travis was gone, there was a UFO over a nuclear missile or a nuclear weapons storage area in the United States, every night he was gone. And so this is a really heavy period of time when you had these nuclear things going on. 75 was a big time, but Hopkins got involved, and the phenomena dragged him into it. I want to stick real quick, because there was one loose thread there with Steinman, who is this amazing UFO researcher, and so he approaches Maria Wang, who's Eric Henry Wang's wife. And Eric Henry Wang is this really interesting character, because if you read Steinman's book, UFO crash, you know, at Aztec, he talks about Wang being the one guy where when he kind of knocks on the door there, you know, everything goes dark. And people always say, don't talk about Wang. And Wang leads special projects at right airfield, but he seems to have been kind of scrubbed from the internet. Then he moves down to Kirtland Air Force Base, a researcher friend of mine has actually spoken to his daughter. And she also said, well, you know, originally she was like, I don't think there's anything to the UFO stuff. And then she goes, it's interesting that all this stuff is coming out now, like implying that she kind of knows a little bit more, and she's extremely religious. So maybe, you know, through kind of getting to Wang, Steinman somehow stumbled into this sort of religion. But any idea what that religious thing is, it just seems like I think his wife was involved or something, where he was under a lot of pressure, and he was talking about the helicopters following him. And he was really paranoid at the end. He just had this idea that they were going to get him and I'm out. And he, I don't have new files, same as Bill Morse files. I know a lot went to Greg Bishop, but all his files. I mean, Morse files would have been, because he was smart guy and he documented everything. And I don't know what happened to all that material. He would have had a file in Wang, he would have file anything he wanted. Morse was really thorough in doing an investigation, which wouldn't be one or two phone calls. He was almost like Stanton where he had massive files. And then he pulled up the same assignment. He just suddenly, boom, he was gone. He came back for a couple of interviews and I tried to get an interview with him. And of course, then the ego came back. I said, you know, I'd like, I'm kind of in California, can I do an interview? He said, Grant, if I didn't figure it out. Nobody's going to figure it out. Give it up. And who is this? This is Bill Morse. Yeah. Interesting. But he was a really sharp guy. I knew him all the time. I never thought he was lying. He is. And I think he's also a John Trump, who's Donald Trump's uncle. Wow. And Cosmic Conspiracy. No, it's on video, I think. I think he did a lot of research on John Trump, who also probably was knowledgeable about all this stuff. He was at the MIT Rad Lab and there was like an official LBJ investigation, right? That you were kind of a part of, is that right? Okay. I'll tell you the story. So, a girl contacts me and she said, I've got, I've got some files. And what had happened was James McDonald, who was the sort of the main guy who testified in front of the UN and Congress and stuff like that. He was a guy out of the University of Arizona, and he's got a massive collection. I went through his collection and tried to, he was good friends with Arthur Londoll. It was head of the Weird Desk and he, but it was mostly just like what's the Weird Desk? The Weird Desk is supposedly the place that the CIA where all the weird stuff comes in, all the paranormal stuff. And his UFO is this paranormal phenomenon, psychic, you know, remote doing, all that kind of stuff. It seems like a small desk, like Kitt Green said he only spent 10% of his time. It's like the ex files of the CIA, the really weird stuff. What's this guy's name? Arthur Londoll. Londoll. And then it became Kitt Green. Then it became Ron Pendolf. You know, Ron Pendolf, he's retired. I'm not sure who it is and now. Interesting. This is the, and this is sort of the, the guys that, that sort of ran it. Anyway, the girl contacts me and she said, I've got, there's a guy, they did a, they did a study. And the guy's name I think was Rand. So she says, all those credentials, his passes for the White House is all I got. And the girl, her friend had the document, her, and the, the book. So they'd written a book. This guy was going to write a book on this, on this, this study that President Johnson had done. He took a photograph of a hundred pages of maybe 250 pages. So she sent me those pages and I said, can you get the rest of it? And nothing really happened on the rest of it. I'm not sure what it was. But I got the hundred pages and it does have the conclusion. And the conclusion is basically the idea that UFOs exist, their, their actual metal and doesn't say much more after that, you know, that we don't really know. It's just, yeah, it's right. And apparently Johnson had said, now go tell, go tell the, the research to go to hell. I've done, because they were into asset, the supersonic transport thing. And this guy was against it. There was all this debate whether you should have supersonic transports and stuff like that. So James Mcdonald was putting pressure on the president to do a UFO study. And then you can actually see in the big case, there were the UFOs lens in the school yard in Australia. He's actually there. He's interviewing people at that and he actually mentions facts. He's working on a presidential study. So that sort of backs up with the London main Johnson was, no, James Mcdonald. James Mcdonald. Yeah. The study was done for James Mcdonald. He was putting pressure on the president. So he did this. And the weird thing about it was if you take a look at the people that were on the, on the panel, has the weird desk, had the skunk works, two star general, a battered star for space, the head of NRO, it's basically Tom DeLong's list, 20 years. 30 years. Like 30 years before, it's like the same list of people that it's like, this is, we're going to do this thing. We're going to put them in. It's unbelievable. I mean, you compare those two lists that, that's, it's like a panel, the same panel goes every time. It's like an executive review panel or, and these are the guys that were working on it. Like the head of NRO and, and Arthur Lando is, I heard stories from Eric Davis, Arthur Lando was just obsessed and he was friends with James Mcdonald. So when I went to James Mcdonald's files, of course, I'm looking for Arthur Lando, there was this whole bunch of files and I found some more, some place else. And then I guess I was talking to people that are in suddenly help put off contacts. He says, and here you got a list of documents from Arthur Lando for, you know, letters and stuff. I couldn't get a copy. That's a gesture. That's the copy. So he knows who Arthur Lando is, you know, and he was, they heard that I had this collection of stuff. I wonder if they interacted. I mean, I put off was obviously, you know, working with the CIA at that point. Yeah. I don't know. That's, that's the thing. And if he was working the word desk in '75, I mean, and Arthur Lando was running Stargate in '72, which is the CIA's Psychic Spy program. So I imagine they interact. And his, Lando always famous, his famous thing was the, the channeling of the, the alien at, at the photograph, National Photographic Interpretation Center. And that's where they analyze all the U2, the SR71, all the, the spy photographs comes through there. And it was the most highly classified CIA building in Washington. And what they did is they put it above an old broken down card dealership in the slumiest area of Washington. So the Russians would never find it. They would not realize it's on the upper floor. And the people around there thought that they were printing money, because there's so much security on the building. They thought the government was up there printing money in this building. And what happened was it came out of Wilbur Smith. So Wilbur Smith was basically doing what I'm doing, what, the lottery is just doing. He's trying to find people who are contacting the aliens. So he had all these various people that were claiming they were having contacts like a Damsky, Williamson, all these people, even, even towns and ground, he may have had some correspondence. He had all those correspondence coming from all over the place. [BLANK_AUDIO] He had the his main woman was was a woman a Francis Swan So Francis Swan lived in L.H. Maine, which is really weird. She lived basically down the street from from Betty Hill and So she's in the blondes like the good aliens and the you know, they're The the affer one that she saw he came one time when she was putting up decorations that are at a Halloween thing and he she thought he was gorgeous and stuff and she starts to get this guy channeling and then Navy intelligence picks up on this woman and they go and visit her in 1954 and Then they come back and it goes in the file nothing happens to 59 they need to decide their story was they're going back to to an air time They fly back to see her again, and that's when this whole thing happens and Wilbur Smith is using her as well So you can see the documents from from Francis Swan if you go FBI Navy intelligence to have this one document and you can tell Wilbur Smith is there and they're talking and what Wilbur wants them to do is Overfly Ottawa on October on August 1st, 1954, and she's saying to Affa, okay, and he's gonna fly over over top of this He builds this flying saucer zero three has five different instruments in there, you know for you know radiation noise all these different things registering and it happens a week later it happens on the 8th the thing comes flying over and I was talked to one of the guys who was in the building at the time and he said all the bells went off and the thing went right off the chart and they all went running out It was overcast so they couldn't see what it was and Wilbur of course was very famous at the time even in the states and he put out a statement said If we if there's nothing wrong with equipment we just detect the first flying saucer over Ottawa boom For shutdown project Magnet said we didn't discover anything Wilbur can use the equipment But he's not allowed to make statements on behalf of the government and game over wild Who do you think came over the top of him because if he's running the like basically NSA of Canada Do you think it was like the American it would be whoever like whoever's at the top would say oh month slant or somebody like that We would say it was all month slant. He was head of the weapons for the Canadians. He was a van of our bushes equivalent Okay, van of our bush did all the atomic bomb, proximity fuse jets jet engines, plastic Exposed all the war war two inventions and what happened there is is once they developed all those things in world war two They said hey, this is a great way. Yeah, because what they were doing is they're grabbing professors instead of sending the war with a gun Sarbacher called them dollar a year meant so they'd give them a dollar and during their their summer when they're off for seven five months they would work on things so Eric Walker would build it the proximity of the Torpedo the homie torpedo all these inventions and van of our bush was running all this stuff with all these professors They pull out a university and then they realize this is a great way to do it So they set up this research and development board to develop weapons and and that's It before war war two in America's really you never much in terms of your attention and explain so you have Arthur Lundall who's running the CIA weird desk Yeah, which is you know he's seeing all the in most paranormal strange stuff coming across his desk and then who is Francis Swan exact okay, so Francis swan is the channeler out of LA me so he is working with the channeler Well, he's working. He's working. There's these two navy guys and one guy's connected to CIA. He's got a neat a CIA pass So he knows London's into this whole thing So in 59 these guys fly back and they say over flying back to get airtime and for their ticket or whatever And say fly back and then she says, well, what why I have to do for you? Why don't you just To show you how to do it and the guy says okay, and a camera the guy's name was we've got his name But he sits down in the chair. She puts his hand on she puts her hand on his right shoulder and suddenly he starts Challenge he starts this they're doing the automatic rating. He starts automatic rating and they go holy cow And he's like wow and he goes running back and of course where he's to go? He goes first place the head start a lundle who runs the national photographic interpretations that that's his main job So go back and say aren't we just woman taught me how to channel it said fantastic sit down And this is with this memo that Jack Ballet gave me it's 11 pages and it's this document that had what happened in this meeting Yeah, it was July 9th 59 so the guy comes back to sit down the chair and they start asking all these questions and they is all transcribed and do you favor a world religion? No in this question this question and question and in earth the lundle says We'd like some proof and then the guy goes from automatic rating To voice says what do you want? He said I like to show yourself when now go to the window and they go to the window and the slang Soster goes flying across in front of the Capitol and the commander still in a trance told him to go to the window and they would have proof The group moved to the window where they supposedly observed the UFO And then they called in Robert Friend who was running blue book and they it's emergency meeting They said you got to come see this and and they call him and he flies in from Ray Patterson And he set up set up the Chandler again they set up this guy and they do the same thing again They make the contact he sat for several minutes And then appeared in the deep trance with his Adam's apple moving up and down rapidly And then they say we'd like you to show yourself the time isn't right I'm busy a time isn't right and it shut down so friend goes back to Ray Patterson he talks to his Commanding general and he said this woman is unbelievable and the sky is Adam's apple moving up and down He says something's going on here We should we should investigate this woman and see what's going on here And then the general says another agency has it hands off and we never hear anything more but art the lundle in these conversations with Dr McDonald James McDonald is talking about this woman you can you can tell he's talking about this woman She's an amazing case with this woman and she is somehow Lendall is in communication via her with like towns and brown and some of these other scientists or lendalls directly communication with town Well, lendalls gathering the material like he's basically you know gathering all the material from around Do you know he was in touch with towns and brown? No, I don't know but with a lot of experiencers Not experiences he was like James McDonald Okay, a lot of meetings McDonald will go to Washington. They go for dinner and they would talk and stuff like that And he was in he was running this operation with this with his channeler and I heard stories about when he was dying He was talking about Really weird stuff that he'd never talked about before and stuff like that He was just sort of like part of his job and he was like the the guy that went into Kennedy's office So when Kennedy had the Cuban isle thing they do the briefing and they come in and he's got the board And he said this a missile is a missile launcher that was art to lendall and he got an award from Kennedy for that You mentioned the 1964 Vandenberg sighting Bob Jacobs this famous case, you know, I've interviewed him I find him to be extremely credible. I actually just interviewed a guy named Richard Barth who The same month in September of 1964 was stationed at Vandenberg Air Force Base and was abducted and taken on a craft while he was guarding a missile station I was just terrified and they're saying I know him out, you know, and I don't know if I passed out Or it's just blank at that point then I come to and I'm inside this It's a circular role. It's a pretty wild. Yeah, and you know, and maybe it was the same thing Um, there is apparently footage of this Bob Jacobs, you know, this, you know, UFO wrapping around this dummy nuclear warhead and atlas five missile Is that right? And yeah, I think I sent you audio of I got it from Bob Mandenberg. Okay, so Bob Mandenberg was a producer in he worked for grand advertising Which according to lots of people as a front company for the CIA And the story was that Gordon Gray Gordon Gray or I'm not sure it's gray advertising. So they ran the UFO Past present future. Okay. UFOs UFOs that has begun. Yeah, then famous nineteen 88 documentary just before Reagan left and the story was Reagan allowed the the whole thing about the Falcon and the Carender to come out and the alien at right Patterson our first base. That was UFO cover-up live And they had the broadened live feed from Russia in 1989 and that was gray advertising out of New York And the rumor was that they were behind this Bob told me the story that That some guy had messed up a documentary on the Vietnam War So they came to him and it was actually Alan Sandler So it was Bob Mandenberg and then Alan Sandler owns the studio and Bob says I was a guy did all the work I did all the music for the thing. I did he wrote the book which was a big best-selling book about UFOs past present future and he just Alan Sandler just made the connections with the CIA and stuff like when burrows was regressed They were they wanted to do the aggression. They said what are you gonna do? And he said, well, Alan said hang on He goes in the next room. Oh, I got two guys and they were CIA is Regressionist that they regressed Burrows from the rounds from force case and they were involved in that and they never put it in their documentaries But they they had this this tape so anyway So Bob had was getting all this material and he had sort of begun authorization He didn't call to Norton Air Force Base in about 1973. He was connected to Halliman who was the chief of staff for Nixon. He'd gone to school with him Halliman was one year old. Oh, Halliman. Yeah, but he knew him and he knew the guy ahead of communications and So he gets this deal they go to a hall in Norton Air Force Base Paul Shartel security manager comes out and he says we want you to do this documentary on dolphins We want you to do this documentary on 3D historiography and we'd look bad in the Vietnam war We want to reestablish the American as a good military as a good thing and stuff That's what they were doing. He's eight documentaries and that's when he says and we'd also like you to do this other Documentary on UFOs, but we'd like you to hide it below the other eight documentaries and Bob says UFOs are you kidding me and then he's in the guy said, yeah Real foes you as do UFOs and I said, yeah, it's real and he tells about the landing and then Bob's going I can't believe it for all these years. I've been saying Margaret's wife is she's really under UFOs and all this sort of stuff. He said, "Margaret, you quit reading those tabloids with the alien head and my baby. This is so embarrassing." And then he said, "Suddenly, he's going to tell me, this is for real." And so he said, "Whatever, you know, so they go." And then he said, "They get access to anything they want." He said, "They walked in the Pentagon. They didn't sign in. They were walking the Pentagon and just walked right in." And then the guy said in the Pentagon, he said, "You guys, you guys are causing us trouble." The phone line is like, every time you do something like this, the phone line lights up and we have to deal with all this sort of stuff. And then then Alan sign and he says, "What are you talking about? You guys invited us here and then the guy shut up." And so they had all this access and they were dealing with Coleman, who is the spokesman for Blue Book at the Air Force, Colonel Coleman. And they'd been given the Hall of Men Air Force-based film, which is this famous story that the landing that sing landed. It's the basis of Close Encounters of the Third Kind. That's where Close Encounters of the Third Kind, they have three UFOs. They come over Hall of Men, the two move off to one lands, the door opens, according to some people, they had flown in generals for this event. They knew it was going to happen. It was being filmed from the helicopters. Linda House said, "For four different locations, they were filming this thing." And the being gets out. How did they know it was going to happen? This comes from '59, all the time. There was a story back in the '50s that the American military through the fighter jets were using lights. They were trying to communicate with lights to make contact. They've always been trying to make contact. And this is a very sense of subject. If you've seen the last interview with James Lakatsky, he does an interview a couple of months back and they ask him, "Have we had communication?" And he said, "I can't talk about that." Has there, to your knowledge, been any contact at a government level with any non-human intelligence beings? Yes or no? I can't make a statement on that. Do you know? Oh, that's a rough one. And then we ask Walker. Dr. Eric Walker will get into it. We ask Walker, who I think is the highest level contact anybody's ever had. We said to Walker, "Have there ever been communication?" We promised not to tell. So he said three years ago. We promised not to tell. So this communication thing seems to be very, very touchy that they've made communication. But you can see the Francis Swan thing and then the Holman thing that they're making success, that they're making these contacts. So they land in 1964 at Holman Airport? Well, there's two different stories. So Bob told me absolutely was May of 1971. And then Richard Dolly comes up and says, "No, no, no, it was, it was 64 white sands and they got lost." Oh, come on. And then so what happens is Linda starts telling the 64 story. I'm saying, "No, it's 71." And that's what happens in this world is you put two different stories out. And then me and Linda started, we didn't fight. I'm right. You're wrong. It was 71. Bob says he was 71. It was six o'clock in the morning. He seemed to have all the details of what was going on. And he actually knew where this thing had been parked. They parked the UFO in a hanger. So he talks about when they, when they're doing the filming in '75, they say, "We'd like to go to Holman, they'd like to go to Holman and film." So they formed up Holman and then the base commander goes, "You want to do what? You want to come on? This is a top-secret base, you're a crazy year and not coming on my base." And then he has a phone that had this Burona guy. They had a guy, I think he was a major, a major Burona who was in the Pentagon. It was their guy that moved stuff around, made calls and stuff like that. And they also had a guy, but he was a Betski. The CIA guy that Bob told me was on, he was there every time they filmed. He was there. The whole project. This guy was there sitting there and saying what he was doing is Dick Betski guy. And his card and stuff I got. So the other one was the, it was Betski and then this second guy where they're doing this, the filming and stuff. And Bob says, "He goes to Holman to get the film, this Holman Air Force Base Film, which in the end, when it came to the end, I said, Bob, it's kind of weird. If it weren't for the location and the time of day, this story sounds exactly like close and kind of with Third Kind." And he said, "I didn't tell you." And he said, "No, he didn't tell me what." I didn't tell you. I gave a copy to Spielberg. I said, "No, he didn't tell me that." So the documentary came out in '75 Spielberg's close and kind of with Third Kind came out in '77. It's the same story. Has Spielberg seen the Holman Air Force? He gave them the copy of the documentary, at least. And he said, "I told you, any Spielberg worked on our production crew. She was a line producer or something on the production." That was Steven Spielberg's wife. Sister? Sister. Whoa. And so he said, "I told you." And then he said to me, he says, "So he came out with close and kind of with Third Kind." And then he said, "Steven Spielberg's mother came to me," he says, "Bob, I've seen your version of the landing and I've seen Steven's version of the landing. I like Steven's version better." So there's this whole idea. You just start to wonder where these stuff is coming from. It's being fed because it's this whole story that the beings come out and there's an exchange and that gets into the whole surplus thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And the story, the Holman story is so fascinating. It's like these kind of tall, Nordic-looking beings with Egyptian, Garber, whatever. So it would make a long story short. Three craft, UAP craft, UFO craft came in. One of them landed not on the runway, but on the tarmac close to a hanger. The other two took off and a gangway came down, extended down, and down comes a humanoid-looking, very tall NHI being. He looked ignored their European descent. So he goes and meets with them and they go into that hanger. So this film was made of it. And this story has circulated at various times. The defense audio-visual agency under the command of two retired generals, one of those two generals said that they got intercepted and convinced them not to allow the way and hindered to see that film. I've changed my mind. I used to say there was eight seconds of film. And I said to Bob, Bob, there's eight seconds of film in there. Why would they give you that? You told me to tuck it back. Yeah, I just took back. I said, there's eight seconds of film in there, Bob. Why would they give it? He said it didn't show anything. And I said, well, it doesn't. He said it wasn't up close. You couldn't see the aliens or whatever. And then some guy came out about a year ago and put out a documentary with the high-deaf version of that thing. And he said it was an F4. And I said, it's not an F4. No way. But it didn't make any sense because it was just this object coming over the hill. So there is a little snippet of the video that does make it into UFO's past, present, and future. And that's the thing that got debunked online like a year or two ago. And I thought the debunk was pretty good. This DVD, however, was a game changer. I quickly fast-forwarded to the landing footage and was momentarily stunned by what that extra detail revealed. It's a plane. The details are faint, but the winds and landing gear are unmistakable. Okay, but it looks like that. But here's the full story. So when I said no, but then when I saw the high-deaf, it does look like an F4. And I said, it's an F4. And then I got a phone call from a guy named Michael Luckman. I don't know if he was a producer out of New York City, dealt all with Michael Jackson, all these big things. And he wrote a book on music, UFO's in music. And I wrote the book right after him and you have UFO's in music. So he wrote the book. And then he comes to me, we're talking because we're both doing the music books and stuff like that. He's doing a second book on music. And he comes to me and says, the whole thing. He said, what do you mean the whole thing? He said, look at this. And I've sent you the photo. I've sent you the photo out of the British Museum. It's the exactly the being that it was drawn by. I said, how did they know how to draw it? And he said, the guy, my storyboards, he drew it. So Shartel described the being and his storyboard guy was drawing the being. And that's what they draw. It is identical. And I go, holy cow, it is identical. So I went to Bob, is it? Hey, Bob, what's the deal here? You have this picture in your book of this being and it's in a British museum. It's exactly the same being. It hasn't even has the stuff. And he says, well, I'll ask Alan. So you ask Alan. And then of course, why does it start going back and forth? He says, we'll sue the ass off. Alan, it's just serious. We're going to sue them and this sort of stuff. And that's where it started to die. But then I started to go, so the whole thing was, they were given. So they were given, they had to storyboard it. So they were given the film and had to pull the film back. Then they said, you got a storyboard, the thing, make up the story. So it starts, this may have happened in the future, may have happened in the past. And then they do this hypothetical, as this thing comes down. So the video, that video in UFOs passed right into your case was given to them by fake. He was given to them by the Pentagon. He said, we were given this because they said, why? He said, well, that's what the game was. And the Pentagon storyboarded out this thing. Well, he did the whole story and then they got the eight seconds, which I assume was from the from the actual video, but it doesn't make any sense because the original video of the story is there's three UFOs come in and then the one drops. This is just a single video. Your take is that there is a real event. Yeah. Well, absent Sandler and Emma Nager did see the real video. Sandler saw it for sure. He described it essentially came out with this storyboarded fake version of it. But they didn't know anyone was fake. They were given that eight seconds video. And they didn't know. And of course, Shartel is describing to the, which is an angel of intel tactic where you send something, which especially at the time, if you look at that F4 video, it looks like a UFO, you know, like that's going to be hard to debunk then. And so it stays in this sort of a liminal space. That's what they did with those are they put those are out there and waited for them to blow up. They knew he's going to blow up and that's that's what they do is they put something in there that'll discredit the case. And once it gets discredited, then you get the story out, but you don't spill the milk. Once you spill the milk and actually make a statement as to what actually happened, you can't put it back. So you inoculate the public from the truth. You're actually it's a whole ran steady thing from the 1960s that if you don't desensitize people, it's all going to fall apart. So UFO world, you know, especially intel world is saw that strategy as somewhat effective and there's a random paper about this where, if you put out a conspiracy that is basically like the truth but you muddy it up and put kind of falsities in it, you put out the truth and then you debunk it and then you're crazy if you believe this stuff and it's kind of debunked for good, like it's kind of radioactive if anybody else wants to look at it and going forward, is that right? - But it still keeps going, the story keeps being re-told, whatever the story is, people don't believe it, it just keeps going, keeps going. - But then that makes things like the Bob Lazarus or a really important because they are true. And so not falling prey to the strategy is actually like looking into the Bob Lazarus story and realizing that this actually happened in your opinion or what do you think? - Well, you remind me to go back to the film in Denver, but the Lazarus thing, my interpretation in Napsa, he thought, and John Lear told me, he thought my version was the closest. I think it was real quick, just before you get into that, the film in Vandenberg doesn't exist now because Blue El is on the, you know, said that in an interview with me like a couple of years ago. - So you've seen the video, so you know this is a real thing. - Yeah. - Oh my God. - But I don't know what to make of it. Do you think that? - Okay, so I give you the clip of Bob M and Igor talking about. So what happened was, Bob had all this film, and so I'm talking to him about Descent to Film Back, and then he said we got film from Napsa, we photographs, all this sort of stuff. And I said, so he sent the helmet thing, did you send the, did you just have to maybe talk about that film about Vandenberg where they shot down the missile? He goes, no, I don't think we sent that one back. And I go, you didn't send it back? I said, where is it? He said, I don't know, I guess it's in Alan Sandler's Vault. He said, really? And he said, yeah, I'll ask Alan. So he comes back and he says, yeah, Alan's got it. And then I saw, at the time I was working on a book on the president's, which he never did, with Angela Joyner, who broke the Stevens Field Texas story, and I was losing her job and never worked again after she lost her job. And so I was working with her and I said, Angela, we got this film, we know what this film is, we get it off Sandler. And we're famous man, this is one believable film. He's got the film. So she was good friends with Bob M and Igor and Bob liked her and so I got, so they made this deal. And Angela Joyner could go to Oregon to Sandler and he was sure of the video, which had to go by herself. I couldn't go. And there was always a story that Sandler, like women and stuff and so I heard this rumor and she really don't want to go by herself. So then it came down and then she decided I'll tell James Fox. So she told James Fox about it. And then James Fox said, really? So then he went and he contacted on Sandler. And then Alan said, if you want it, it's $25,000 to use in your documentary. I think that was, to use in the documentary. So James went around for recruiting and suddenly got to $25,000 and went back and he said, OK, I got $25,000 going to use the film. And he said, no, I talked to my lawyer. My lawyer said, you got lots of money. You don't need $25,000 to silver in your life. Forget it. You know, you turned down. You don't need $25,000. So he said, no, I'm not going to do it. And so James went to, they were dealing with Congress. So they went to the, I don't know who it was in Congress, these group rational committees. And then he said, this guy, he's got a classified film. It's top secret. Quentin, all his name is on the cover of this thing. It's top secret. It still belongs to the government. He's got an illegal film. And so then it was the deal, they'd go back to Sandler. And Congress was going to go back and say, you have to turn over the film. And we're going to get the film. And Congress is going to release the film. And then James said, the deal, he felt the deal with Congress was that he'd get a copy of the film for his documentary in exchange for them helping move the film. So the film, I guess it's still in the Sandler's vault. Where does Sandler live in Oregon? Interesting. Yeah. And so he's got that. And Bob talks about that. They brought in the guy that did the analysis for the Robertson panel, and he viewed it. And he said, it's one and a million. So the video, it's reported that the video is actually really amazing. Like it's a really incredible video. Yeah. And they brought in a top analyst who just let it out. You have the president of the United States, literally Tweedin saying, we need to get to the bottom of this. I've tasked Pete headseth, the Secretary of War with looking into UFOs, getting to the bottom of this complex issue. Why doesn't Sandler just put this thing out? He'd be the people's champion. Yeah. That's what I would do. But that's the thing I found is I've liked so many documents. And I'm saying, is anybody ever just leak a document? Am I the only person that's leak in documents here? And I know a lot of people are just sitting on stuff for whatever reason. I don't know why they're sitting on-- like when I had the Wilson leak document, when I put that thing on the internet, and then how do you get your hands on the Wilson Davis memo? I was approached by James Rigny out of Australia. So the way the chain of custody was Mitchell had it. He had died. Everything in the family was interested in all the space stuff, because there's worth piles of money in the files. The UFO stuff, nobody was interested in. So there was an aerospace guy there from Australia who said, well, don't throw it out, I'll take it. So he had this big pile of documents, and he takes it back to Australia. And James Rigny is going to visit this guy seven hours away or something, and the guy says, I got these documents from the agricultural collection. And he's looking through him, I go, holy cow. And he starts photographing these documents. And he keeps them for a long-- I don't know how many years, he has them. He keeps them. And then we're at this conference together, and he gets this vision in the middle of the night that he should get this document out. So he wakes up and he phones his wife. He says, scan the document. The two documents. I think the second is better than the first. The one that everybody's interested is the Wilson League document. I like the other one better. But anyway, he gets the-- first couple pages of the document of the Wilson League document, he puts it on a little iPad. So I'm leaving the hotel, I'm going to Tucson, and I got to make it, I'm not on time. And then he comes, he says, can I assure you something? I said, well, I'm kind of busy. I'm heading out right now. And he said, this is important, can I assure you something? I said, well, James, you know, I've got to be in Tucson at six o'clock and all this stuff. And he said, 10 minutes. It's OK, 10 minutes. So he says, using the iPad, he walks off. Look at the iPad. First page, I see Oaks Shannon. Or they know some people call him Oaks Shannon. I call him Oaks Shannon. I see Oaks Shannon's name. I see Eric Davis's name. And I go, oh my god, this is a real deal. What is it? Because it's a document. But I really didn't read it. I've never read the document. I was going to put it out. I knew I read the document. All I was interested in was nobody in the world knows who Oaks Shannon is except for me. Because Eric Davis had given me his notes from the advanced physics theoretical working group. So I knew who Oaks Shannon was. And I knew he was the real deal. And there's Eric Davis talking. And it starts to run to stuff. And I'm going, what am I going to do? Like, I got this thing. Should I try to photograph it? Well, because you may not give me the document when it comes back from wherever you went. Should I try to photograph this thing? And you know, get it, get it surreptitiously. And then he comes back. And I said, where do you get this thing from? And then he told me the story. And I said, I'm putting out a book next year. Do you think I could just put in the book? And I won't say nothing. I was put in the book. That's how we got on the internet. Just put in the book, not say anything about it. And somebody's going to pick up on it. And he's like, where did this document come from? And then it would sort of blow away. Because my problem was the document. When I saw the two pages was bad. But when he sent it to me, it was 15 pages long. And I'm going, oh my god. And it's like all the people. I know all the people in the document. And it's like, now I'm going to go cut their throat. And I'm thinking, oh, I don't know if I can do this. And that's where I've got the lawyer. And I'm going like, I don't know what to do with this thing. I got to get it on the internet without me being in the middle of this. Because Eric Davis is me, you know, he may lose his security clearance over this. And I'm thinking, this is not good. And then he sent me the alien autopsy document. And that I had kicked green. And I'm going, holy shit, all this stuff. And then he sent me two other documents. One was a condolence letter to the guy flew, the first guy flew across the ocean, his wife, Charles Lindbergh. When he died, there was a condolence letter that the Edgar Mitchell said. So that was one. Then there was another one that talked about the meetings, the Niz meetings, when they're happening, all this sort of stuff. So he gave me four documents. And so I freaked out and figured out what I was going to do. And then some guy said, I said, well, in the end, I said, OK, I'm not going to cover it up. Anybody ask me for the document? Because I was talking about it. They say, can I get a copy of the document? Yeah, sure. And then they would link the document. And I would be sort of out of my hand. So the one guy said, can I see it? So I said, yeah, so I sent it to him. And he was an AI expert. And then he phoned me. He said, well, let me, let me deal with it. And then about a month later, he phoned me for me. He said, I'm going to elevate her in Chicago. He said, you know how the document you gave me? I think he just went on the internet. And it was on the internet for months and months before Dolan found it. It was on there. And then when Dolan found it, of course, it just blew up. And suddenly it was viral. And there was all this thing about it. It was hoax analysis. That's what we knew right away. I mean, there's no way this thing is hoaxed. We knew exactly where they come from. And it caused probably the biggest break in the whole thing that's real. That there is actually a legacy program. And it's cut off from a high level people. If you don't have a need to know, you don't get to know. So that was that. Yeah, the Wilson Davis memo definitely sort of a revelation. But also took place after Bubbles R. And so I want to talk about Bubbles R because he's this really important guy who I think really is leading modern disclosure in some ways because you have all these high level guys saying there's an existence of reverse engineering crash retrieval programs now as high up as the director of national intelligence, former DNI, James Clapper, John Brennan, multiple CIA directors, Woolsey, people like that now saying that this is a thing. But then, no. No one seems to have worked on the craft, except this one guy, you know, from 1989. And so you have a really interesting theory about Pablo's art and I'd love to hear. Yeah. The way I looked at it and John sort of agreed with me was the intention of the whole thing was the idea where you're doing this gradual disclosure thing. So you got to sort of tell people, we have UFOs. So people sort of, yeah, yeah, probably UFOs probably working on it. But then the idea we got crafts and that they had them at Area 51. So basically they take a guy who's a, you know, a pirate flag over his house, he's got jet engine cars, he's like totally crazy man, you know, after the event who's worked, doing computer work for the prostitute and all that sort of stuff. And he's just like a wild guy and they figure it's the whole thing is if you want it out, you give it to the president to make a speech, but they're not doing that. So they give it to somebody whose reputation is really not that good. And then the person puts a thing out and it gets out and nobody believes it, but the story starts to float around and it gets repeated and repeated and repeated and every says, well, they got crafts at Area 51. Now so what I believe happened was the story about the tellers right, but the thing is he phones teller in November and he's on the base December the 6th and he's got a top secret cure clearance. I mean, you can't go to the shop, so you get clear clear cure clearance in three weeks. There's no way. And it's almost like, hey, let's put this guy on the base because he gets asked a question by teller, do you want to work at Livermore or do you want to work up at the site? And he said, well, I like to work up at the site. So he gets that offer and he goes out there. And then exactly what I think they intended him to do was the new his friends with John Lear. He first he didn't believe anything John Lear said and then suddenly he said, well, you know, maybe this is true and he starts, you know, looking at it or whatever. And when he gets up there, he comes, I think it's December the 6th, John Lear tells me the story. I'm sitting there. He says, I'm writing checks and Bob Lazar comes in and he says, John, it's real. It's real. It's real. They've got it. It's up to the site. He said, is it theirs or ours? He said, it's theirs. He said, well, what the hell are you doing in my house? You know, the phone's going to be tapped. You know, they're going to be watching you. Are you crazy? Get back to go back to the site. Go back to the site and come back in six months and tell me what's going on. And then I started looking at how it unfolds. So he comes in there. I train people. So I know like you're training people. You show them what the washroom is. You know, the second day, second visit there, he's getting, he's getting his documents. He's got like 125 documents and he's reading all this stuff. It's a need to know program. He's talked about, you couldn't talk to the guy across from you. And he was so compartmentalized, but they give them all these documents and tell them about all these programs. And the one that was gave it away was the idea that there had been this shootout down below in a base, a dulcey. And that 64 special forces guys got killed because they had arms and they were not allowed to have arms and the greatest shot them in this story. And Bob had one of the documents that had happened at area 51. I go, oh, they're doing it again. They're putting two stories out and this sort of thing. And so I said, well, what they wanted is they wanted to show him. So they take them to the site to show them all this kind of stuff. And then they bring them back to John Lear. And the one John Lear, John Lear is going to tell the story. And everybody at that time knew John Lear was a wild card. He was just, you know, off the rails, people I was insane. And you know, he's doing all the stuff at the MJ 12 and the underground bases and, you know, people being assassinated and all sorts of stuff he was into. And it was like, John would tell the story and everybody would go, yeah, it's John Lear and listen to John Lear, but the story would get out. And as NAP even admits, so he was like the national inquirer at the time. Yeah, they need the story up, but they need a plausible liability and they just think they're full of part. So they have all the stuff like the school and all the stuff that would, people would find out about it and it would discredit the story, but the story would come out. And that's where NAP says, well, if this was a counterintelligence operation, it's a hung the guy that came up and it's totally backfired because what happened was, and I have a different view. I mean, you guys in contact with Lazar, you can confirm with him, but my understanding is through Tim Good, who had interviewed him at the time, was they'd only been at the base five or six times. But take a look at his W2 form from 1988, it's only 900 bucks. He was there for a month, 900 bucks. He can't be working full time. And so the whole thing was, my understanding, I'm either wrong, that according to Good, he had been to base five or six times and that in the beginning of the year, he was no longer being called to the base. And so that's when he took John Lear and Huff and the wives and stuff that they took to John Lear's motorhome and they went up there and they filmed this thing. And the thing was that they filmed at eight o'clock Wednesday night or whatever it was, Thursday night or whatever, they tested the same time every time. And this thing came up with the mountain and John filmed it on camera. Well, I told John Lear to, and you even brought them to, to see the test. Yeah, because I had the test flight schedule. Yep. So I know it's a Wednesday night, yeah, we're going out there and you guys are going to see it. So John Lear, and today as March 22nd, 1989, we're standing just about eight miles to have room like Nevada, the super government secret test site. And the question is, if, if Lear, if, if Bob Lazar was, he said, if senior scientists, we wouldn't have been senior scientists just starting. How, why would they tell them? It's the need to know. If you can't talk to the guy sitting across, why would they tell him when the test is? He wasn't being allowed up at the site. So that's why he got upset. And that's when he took people out and he said, I'll show you. And he started taking people out to the site. And that's when he got, that's when they got caught the third time. And they bring them to Indian Springs to put the gun to his head and they said, we told you this at the top. She could, it means go tell your friends and stuff. They never fired him. So why didn't that fire them? They didn't fire them. Lear tells the story. He was held at gunpoint after he showed, the morning I'm John Lear, just Dennis, Dennis Guy said, and they still didn't fire him. They didn't fire him. They said, because your wife is fooling around, you got psychological problems, we're going to pull, they pulled his clearance for a while or something like that, but then he gets invited back to the base. And he's so scared. He just won't go back to the base because he figures, he remembers the same drink and this stuff that it was really bitter and he couldn't, his memory didn't go and he figures, if I go on the base, I'm never coming back. So he turned them down. They invited him back to the base after this event happened. And that's the whole thing. They wanted more stuff out. Chris is that true? But he was still invited back to the base. Hey guys. Today's episode is brought to you in partnership with Ridge, one of the early OG supporters of the show. I adore their stuff. I love the wallet. It's super sleek and then yet rugged. If you're still lugging around some big, fat wallet in your pocket, putting your back out sitting on that thing, what are you even thinking yet with the program? This is the wallet of the future. They do great power banks too, which for me because I'm constantly using my phone is absolutely essential. They have beautiful designs. They also make amazing luggage. 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So you get a steady, cleaner energy without the spike and the spiral that so many people experience. So if you've been looking for a calmer alternative to your morning coffee routine and are curious about trying mudwater, the starter kit is the move. Right now you get up to 43% off, free shipping, and a free rechargeable frother. When you use code Jesse at mudwater.com, that's M-U-D-W-T-R.com. Now back to today's show. Chris, is that true? That he was still invited back to the base. He took them to Indian Springs and they put the gun to his head. When you said it was top secret, they mean bring your friends out to look at the test. The question is, how do you know when the test was? He's just a new guy, and it's all compartmentalized, what do you know where the test is going to be? And then the other thing is that he said, they didn't farm, they just pulled a security clearance for a period of time because his wife was fooling around with the aviation guy. That's so there was a gap. Yeah. And then he called him back to the base. and then he turns it down. So he never did get fired. And if this top secret and he's all the stuff, you'd further go in the spot, which means they wanted to take them back on the base, because they still need them to go tell some more stuff out there in the public. They wanted some more stuff out. And maybe Kim good is wrong, but Kim good saying there are a couple of times of the base. And that's why he brought people to the base. He was so upset that he wasn't going to get called up to the base. To be clear, your view is that Bob was our dead work on. Oh yeah, genuine UFO craft. He was there. That is not of human origin. You just think that maybe one of his superiors wanted this out knew that he was discreditable. And so kind of pushed the thing out. And it was a counter until op gone awry because it blew up way beyond what they then that's what happened. When they got caught, then he had this thing where it happens by accident where nap calls up John Lear. And he said, I'm missing a guest on tonight's show. They pulled out. I need a live guest. Well, you got the gap at the base. Let's put him on camera. And then they do the back thing with the Dennis where they put him back lit. And then it goes viral around the world, just blows up. And that's what they didn't expect. They didn't expect that a guy with all these Peabody Awards and Emmys and stuff would suddenly do the story. And it would suddenly, it's got credibility. It goes viral. And that's where they had to they had the the land where people were going up to Bob. Good Bobby Goodman was at a radio show at the time. And he was every night. It was like coast to coast. Everybody's listening to this thing about the base and what's going on. And the Lazarus story. And it was just viral. And then he was taking buses up on the weekend. All these buses would go up and sit on top of the mountain. And they would actually watch the base. They could watch things landing on the base and stuff like that. So that's when Clinton took all this land back. They made a land grab to take more land away to force people to make the base bigger. So they were 25 miles away instead of 11 miles away from looking at the base. They also brought him out to see a test himself at the site. Yeah. He went under the craft and he saw it flying above them. And that's the thing they can show you different things. Like Bob, I mean, I told me this story. It's the same thing. He told me the bizarre story that DARPA when he was doing UFOs, Pastor Andrew Shushia, they took him through DARPA and he was seeing all the stuff they were doing, all the weird stuff. And the one he said was a room with a computer in it. And he was in there and this guy was sitting in his table. And he said to the guy, he said, "Tell Bob what you're doing. I can't." He's not clear. I can't tell him. He said, "Tell what you're doing." He said, "I'm talking to this machine with my mind." And then Bob says, "Okay, tell him this word." And the computer, Bob says, "It was like a voice like Stephen Hawking said, "Well, I remember the word was weather." And he's going, "Oh my god, this guy was doing this test." This is 1974 or whatever. This guy's been this mental thing with this computer at DARPA. And so Bob said that he got these tours as well of all these different weird things that the military was doing and stuff like that. And they sort of wanted out that they, and that's why they use film people because they want you to fictionalize it, just tell the story. And even if you get everything wrong, or chase Brandon, if you remember the chase Brandon, they have of course. So chase Brandon comes out and he writes the Christos conundrum. And then he says, he's going to write another book on UFOs. And the Christos conundrum was the idea of how did the CIA handle the Roswell crash. And it went through review according to some of the stories eight times. And it was like, "Change this, change that." And it's still a whole story. Like if you say that you want to tell your story or spy, you save the world from nuclear attack, yeah. You can write your story, just change the names, change the dates. Do you think other elements of that story are true? So this idea that it's the Sky Chalmers, this mathematical whiz. He's a part of the OSA, which is an offshoot of the OSS, you know, this pre-CIA organization in the 40s. And they find this like crystal tablet that reads timelines. There's a committee that's brought together that sounds a lot like the Majestic 12, this elite military scientific, you know, intelligence unit that like governs the UFO issue. But that he almost goes in and out of like a liminal space where he's like taught things by these beings and then comes back. And that sort of determines how, you know, the government operates at a really high level. Do you think that any of it? He starts the book off with this Francis baking quote that some truths are so unbelievable that you have to tell them in fiction. Exactly. He was the guy, the C.I. again, Hollywood. And that's a student in by the way. We don't know who Chase Brandon is. And he's gone. He's gone. He's just prepared. Yeah. He's supposed to do the UFO book and he didn't do it. By a quote, a quote what he said, "If you want a good read, read by book. You want to learn something, read between the lines." So he said, "That was his job. You're doing a movie on the CIA. He comes to you and says, "Hey Jesse, are you doing a movie on the CIA? Yeah. You ever been to the CIA? I could take you to the CIA. You could look through the CIA. Take it for a tour and then you have a better understanding of what we do." And so it's like the idea, instead of killing you, they walk you down the path they want you to walk. They try to get in front of the parade and lead you and then use these manipulation tactics to get people going in the right direction. So Chase Brandon was one of these people who just came out and and and disappeared. It was this idea that they do control Hollywood. They do come in and like, like Emma Nigger said, there was somebody on the set the whole time. The CIA never left the set and that the guy from communications that was headed communications for Nixon formed every single day while they were taping every day. Speaking of being pushed down the wrong track by Intel, I think a lot of the people who have been at the forefront of disclosure for the last 10 years or so seem to be really excited. That Trump is making an announcement and it's interesting to me that it almost feels like their plan is being sort of executed in some ways. Do you find any like daylight between the way you view the phenomenon and the kind of, I don't know, like mass disclosure kind of narrative that's being, you know, this idea that because it seems like they're saying all these things like crash retrieval programs, you know, reverse engineering operations. We've had programs forever. They're saying all this stuff and then you see like, conspirators, you know, people online who are like very kind of like, you know, anti-authority and they're like, now that like people who are high up at the CIA and DNI are saying this stuff, you know, like we think that this is like BS and some sort of narrative. But then if you actually quiz them on like their belief system, they're like, yeah, we believe we've had crash retrieval programs, reverse engineering. So I'm like, what is the core secret? Because that can't be the most important. Because I actually agree, I think the irreverence towards those organizations is very valid given this history, this pattern that you're talking about. So I'm like, is the crash retrieval and reverse engineering operations can't be the most vital thing. There has to be something interesting kind of metaphysically or in physics that exists beneath that, that people are, you know, from those intel organizations are trying to, you know, steer people clear of. Or are they just literally trying to get it out at this point? Are they like, this is their last gasp and they're trying to get it out? No, they're pushing the hardware thing. If you talk about the core secret, I think the core secret is still the consciousness thing. Okay. It's this idea that is not what you think it is. So when you hear Jimmy Carter, so that Fox asks Jimmy Carter. So why do you do something when you're in the government? He said there are many possibilities, but nobody has answers. Did you ask when you were in prison? Yes, but there's a lot of different answers that nobody knows has proof. And then if you listen to Barack Obama, he said, yeah, with the videos are real, yeah, we don't, we don't know what's going on. There's footage and records of objects in the skies that we don't know exactly what they are. We can't explain. If you listen to Jim Semin van, he says just because you got bodies and crafts doesn't mean what's going on. And he tells this story about the seven hour briefing. They tell him these high level guys tell him get a room in the CI for six to eight hours. We're going to come and talk to you. And he said these guys come in. They're from contractors. They're from the military. They all got as many tickets as he has and they walk in and he said, this girl, let me show you what I mean. They're in there. And he said they went to this whole thing. And then of course, she gets asked in the interview, well, we're defined. What about UFOs? And he said, nothing. They haven't got anything. He says, I'll make a bet. I'll make a bet one year of my pension against anybody. They haven't got a clue what's going on because you got bodies and crafts. Doesn't mean you're going to know what's going on. We have bodies and crafts. But we don't we don't understand it. He said, but what they told me, he said what they tell you that scared you. And he said, they said all the size stuff is right. Everything. It's all right. All this sort of stuff. And he said he walked around. You got to remember this guy was head of covert ops for the US government for the CIA. And he said he walked around for three months and a days. He was just he blew him away. Whatever they told him blew him away about this size stuff. And then he said his wife would ask him, Jimmy, okay, and he couldn't tell her what was wrong or whatever, what he had seen or whatever. And he said, he's just sort of and then they said, would you like another briefing? He said, no more briefings. I don't want to hear anymore. And it just blew him away. So this is this whole thing. And even you get Likatsky, the latest interview he got. And you start reading between the lines. And I'm just working on this now is this connection between year death experiences and UFOs. So you get this story that Likatsky tells the story. I was in a congressional facility. He puts this chapter six. First thing in this book a couple a year ago, we're in the congressional facility, which means Congress is learning something because he's in a congressional, probably in a skiff. And he said with a senator, which was spring confirmed, it was Senator Reed in a skiff. And we told them that we had breached the craft. We'd gotten into the craft. And there was nothing in it. And then so he starts getting interviewed about this. And he won't go. He won't go. There's words in the craft. I can't talk about it. Can't talk about it. Can't talk about me. The question was they breached the craft. It's like 2011. You got in the craft in 2011. So then they finally asked him this time. They said, can you talk about how you brief the craft? How you breach the craft? So I can't talk about that. And so the question comes down. You hear this story that people will talk about that the craft is alive. It's conscious and that It's Serf Addy tells the story, and if he ever talked about it, but Jack Serf Addy tells the story, he's got a friend, he's a Navy friend, and he said, "I got 99.5% that this guy's telling me that she's not making me up. He's got craft on the east coast of the United States. It's in there, and it couldn't breach the craft, it couldn't get inside the craft, because the craft works, it's alive, it's conscious, and it's got an attitude that unless you vibrate at the right level, you can't get into the craft." So this guy managed, I guess he qualified, and the craft would open, and the thing just opens up like molten metal, the side of the craft opens, he goes in through the craft, he goes back together again, but unless you have the right attitude, that's how you get inside the craft. And that's why they couldn't breach the craft. They couldn't figure out how to get into the craft. You know, these stories, they're using drills that couldn't get into the craft, that the craft lets you in or it doesn't let you in. That's what Serf Addy's telling the story. Right now, he's telling the story of his friend, these physicists working for the Navy in this facility on the east coast with this craft, and then you start looking at near-to-experiences and people talk about near-to-experience, and I've got a whole list of maybe 20 so far, probably going to get more. 20 is people said, "I'm in near-to-experience, I'm going in this building, and the building looks like it's alive, and it's made out of granite, but it looks like it's alive, the rocks are alive, and to go in, and there's these rooms, and the only way you can get in the room is if you vibrate at the right level, they're teaching different things, and the thing opens up like molten metal, it opens up in the door, and if you're available to go in to be taught, it closes up, and I'm going, "That's exactly what the other thing is to talk about." Same as you talked about the crystals, so let me tell you the story of the crystal, where you see these crossovers, where you start wending, what's going on here? So you talked about Chase Brandon talking about this crystal, you can see the past, the future, and all this kind of stuff, and I've even asked Richard Bozzas to tell us the story. The most amazing thing he ever saw in the military was a crystal. The aliens had this crystal, and they could hold this crystal, and they could show you the crucifixion of Jesus, and they could show the past, and this crystal was the most amazing thing he ever saw. So I got a friend, he's an experiencer, he's a Mormon guy out of Utah. Who said that about the crystal? Richard Dodie. Okay, but yeah. Okay, hang on. So you got one syrup of the crystal, but looking in and seeing time, and you're talking about Chase Brandon talking about lasting timelines, and you can see that I just don't trust anybody. Okay, but again, so I got this friend, so this guy's a Mormon guy, I mean, he's actually in hospice care. He's been fighting to stay alive for the last five years, but anyway, so he tells me a story, and he says, Elby, who is his being, everybody always says a being. You say, you run to the craft, what's the name of the being, and then Elby has a name. And it's an English name, and they talk one being tells them everything, and you start running. So the spirit guide is an alien, like what's going on here? Anyway, Elby takes them to the spirit world three times. First time he's serving the dark. Can't see anything. Second time, he's serving the dark, but he can use his mother, he can talk to his dead mother. He's talking to his dead mother the third time, you take him right into the spirit world. So he's in the spirit world with his mother, and then this field, beautiful field, the grass is talking to you, it's just beautiful flowers and wonderful feeling and stuff like that. And his mother says, Ron, you see that building over there, and he said, it looks like a little tiny Mormon temple over in their distance. And she says, Ron, you die, you're going to get a room in this building. And so they go over to the building and she says, your father's got a room in the building. And he says, this portal opens up, you can see his father inside this room. So he goes in, and this is where the catch comes, so he goes in the building, he's a grinder, so we're the same. I went inside and it was ten or a hundred times the size inside to do the love site. And I'm going, a hundred times the size, even a UFO or a UNI spirit world here, because you hear the stories. Chris blesses us. It's 30 feet on the outside, and he looks inside and it's the size of a football same. He looks back outside. It's 30 feet. That's common. Yeah. Yeah. And so this guy's telling it's a spirit world. And then he goes into the spirit world. And he says his mother takes him down this building and down, and there's a table, and the table has these crystals coming out of the table. And I said, crystals, and I said, yeah, and he said, you take a look at the crystal at a certain angle, and you can see all your past lives and you can see all your lives and stuff like this. I said, really? And he said, his mother said, you don't have a crystal yet, Ron, because you haven't died. As soon as you have a crystal, your crystal will come out of the table. And then he looks, he sees his dog's crystal, and he looks at his dog's crystal, and his dog disappear in 1972 or so like this. He never knew how to do this dog, and he's watching the crystal of the dog's life. And he saw the neighbor came, shot the dog, threw it in the back of a pickup, and took it in the dump, and threw it in the dump. Who is this guy? His name is Ron Johnson. He's got incredible stories. What's his background? He was just a heavy equipment operator, stuff like that. Was he working on crash retrievals or reverse engineer? Who is the Sarfati's friend, the Navy guy? I had a name, and I put it to some people and said, no, that's not the guy. I had one name that I thought it was, but people denied it. So I'm still trying to figure out what the base was. I think Luel is under-talking about the base. There's a base on the East Coast, the Navy facility, I think it's called it, on the East Coast. And I think that's the base where this guy was. But we're still trying to identify who this guy was, that told the story about flying craft. He was in charge of the project. Do you think there are UFO bases around and mountains or underwater? Yeah, the mission around, people always talk about the beings on your Mount Shasta and stuff like that. But the question is, if you're a being and you come across time and space, why do you need to have a base? Totally. It doesn't make any sense. It's almost like, I think it's more a theory than physical when it comes to the beings. They can sort of go in, like you'll have people dead people coming on to craft. So the question is, dead pets. So are they bringing these people back into physical reality into our experience where the person is being abducted, physical? Or are you being moved out of your ass or body, moved on to a ship and you're in the world where all the dead people are? You mentioned Jim Simeván, who's very high up at the CIA, getting briefed on, you know, basically all sorts of paranormal stuff, you know, tangentially related to UFOs. And they say that the size stuff, the parapsychology, the idea that mind and matter are not, you know, partitions they're connected is the kind of real court truth, all of that is real. I find that really interesting because you're one of the few people who've had direct interactions with this guy named Eric Walker, the direct interactions with anybody who's been rumored to be on this sort of majestic 12 committee, this committee of elite science military, you know, people who are like in charge of the UFO matter, they were rumored to, you know, be started under Truman and Eisenhower. And Eric Walker is supposed to be a part of this group. He runs all sorts of material science initiatives, he's a president of Penn State. Well, I was wild because he would talk in rhymes and riddles and at the time, my co-author wanted to just sort of edit the stuff, I said, no, edit it, it's just, but I was just crazy stuff, the good stuff, whatever. Outside, he was like kind of goofy, some of the stuff he said, but some of the stuff actually turns out to be right. The whole thing where he says, you know, ask a question, and you suddenly, that's what happened to you when I had the download that sort of popped in my head, I've forgotten you'd even said it. He said at one point, he's, they're talking about the MJ 12 committee. Is it all Americans? Is it more than 12, all this sort of stuff? And he cuts the guy off, he said, look, me ask you a question when nobody, ESP and the guy had no answer. He said, look, unless you understand about ESP and how it works, you will not be taken in by the control group, very few people understand how it works. And I didn't realize the significance until I suddenly Ben Rich had said it two years later, exactly the same question when Hartson said, how did they get here? And then Ben Rich turns around and says, let me ask you a question, what do you know about ESP? And John Hartson says, it means everything in time and space is connected. So that's how it works. And that's this thing where I look at it, I moved away from the ET going to material wormholes or something to this portal type thing. And the key thing I've got is the tape from Ron Tendolfi. Well, I want to stick with Airquaker real quick. So did you get the vibe or sense that this was a guy who had been privy to you? Well, we knew his background. We knew he'd been on defense science board, that he was chairman of the board of the Institute for Defense Analysis, which at the time was the top military think tank. That's where DARPA came from. That's where the Jason's came from. They came out of Institute for, he's the guy that set him up. He worked on defense policy, even a letter. He said, "I worked on defense policy in 1947 with Vannevar Bush." And he admitted he was part of the 1965 Kexberg crash. He was on the scene. That was later. Because he said some things. I got the interview. I said, "Phone him back. Ask him if he was like Kexberg." Because he was talking about things that seemed to indicate he was a Kexberg and he said, "I was there. So what?" And when he said control group, what do you think he meant? Well, they were asking him about the MJ-12. Is it all Americans? Is it more than 12 people? That's when he cut them off. That's a good question. And then he would say things that came up later that was like, there was one story that when he said elites, what do you like to elite? Like elite. Like I mean mentally, physically, whatever. Like there were ordinary people like almost like Van Neumann or people of that status. They were just really, really stand out people that could do calculations in their head or stuff like that. That was my impression that they were not just academics. So they were trying to get out of the military, the academics and stuff. And they did ask them all the questions. We put all the transcripts and they would ask those questions. Like where's their military? People involved and was in the communication. He said we promised not to tell. And now you're hearing this single communication. Every time someone gets asked the question about communication, it shuts down. It's like this is one of the pillars of things. But there was another one that came up was I had a friend who was at the sole conference, two years ago. And they were showing James Fox's movie and I think I've seen the movie. But I think they talked about the Kingman crash. So this girl that I'm going to be talking about. I have contact with sitting right near one of the main people, I've got to see who it is, but one of the main people, and as that came out, he said, "That's not right. That's not right. That was a crash. That's the one they walked away from." And I said to her, "He said that." And she said, "That's what he said." And then I remember Walker saying, "We're talking about MJ12." "Oh, the dead bodies." He said, "How do you know they're dead? You assume too many things, and they're all wrong. How do you know they didn't get up and walk away?" And now we've got this story that they got up and walked away and they left the craft totally intact. And then when they looked inside, there was no beings. They just left us a craft, totally intact, flyable, all this sort of stuff. And Walker had said that 30 years ago, "How do you know they didn't walk and get up and walk away?" Who's this woman who said that about the king? I don't know if she had a good source. Do you know she had a king? She was sitting beside him. And when the interview with the movie was going on, this guy was saying, "That's not right." Who said this? I want to say. I don't know. It's one of the main people at Seoul. And I just couldn't believe. He said that. And I don't know if that's true, but what I didn't want to say. She told me the story. I don't know if she wants to expose this guy, what he was saying because she just told me what he was saying because she seemed inside of him. And I'm thinking he said that. But it was this idea. We even got the idea that there's one craft where they walked away from it. They just left it and walked away. And gifted it to us. That's where Tim Taylor talks about the gifting field. There's their gifting of this stuff. And that's what they asked, "Bob Bigelow, do you think there's other creatures in other countries?" And he said, "Yeah. There's, I think it's been crash in Russia. I think it's been crash in China. I think it's been one in South America. I think they're, they're seeding them. They're seeding them around the world." And that's a gifting idea. And it already seems to have adopted this idea. That's the thing that doesn't come at 10,000 light years and suddenly crash. Well, I also, you know, just sticking with Walker for a second. Walker was chairman of the Institute for Defense Analysis, the IDA, and Malmgren was a part of the IDA early on as well. And I had the privilege of interviewing Malmgren. Yeah. There was a lot. The tape with, uh, uh, Bobby Reinhman, when you got asked this question. So I was at the IDA. He was, they were in a meeting at the IDA as well. And so you have all these high, if you look at the board, they had joint chiefs of staff people on there. They had the NSA. They get some guy he'd been on for like 30 years. It's that right beside Walker at the board and stuff like that. It's just high, high level people working on, then they were working on the Vietnam War and missile problems. Yeah. Like kind of stuff. And, uh, these, these are elite people, they were grabbing them and, uh, do you believe Malmgren's testimony? Yeah. Yeah. And is it because of, you know, his background, you know, IDA? Yeah. He does, he does, he does anything to have any, you know, vested interest in, in, in making it up. He may have some stories that he has to change based upon, you know, covering for some classified thing or whatever, but it is extremely interesting story. Especially I hear he's like the same as Bob McGuire. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's interesting to watch these guys up, but that was my original thing when the thing was flying away the second night. I said, I'm going to find out what's going on here. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then I went from the Canadian government to Eric Walker, because that led to Eric Walker. And then Eric Walker was going to put his papers at the Truman Library. Mm-hmm. So I went to the Truman Library and go, oh, President's got to know he's the most powerful guy in the world. He's got to know what's going on. So that's when I couldn't find much of Walker. Mm-hmm. I was looking for his files because he ran, he was assistant on weapons in 1950. That's when this crash took place. So that's how it started. So they found out that Simon said I was, I was invited to a crash briefing at Ray Powder Center for Space. Mm-hmm. And I couldn't go. I was busy. He was working on the do-line in Canada. There's something like that. These engineers. I couldn't go. And then he kept pushing Simon and was pushing, well, who had who had? And then Simon or, um, uh, Stan Freeman had an interview with something. He said, well, who was there? Who was there? He said, Ben, Ben of our Bush and Von Newman and stuff and he says, well, these guys are all dead. There might be some guy that's still alive this is 1983 and there's, we do have the tape of this conversation. He said, well, yeah, there was this guy. He was real arrogant. He was, he was from Pennsylvania. He had a company like me and he thought he knew everything. He went to all the meetings. So it was Simon who did all the work and got all the names and came out and he phoned him. He says he was with Dr. Eric Walker. Yeah. That's the guy. That's the guy. That's when he phoned Walker. And he says, I've got this document, uh, before me about, uh, or no, I've got, I've been received from Dr. Robert Sarbacher that you were at as a briefing, uh, dealing with the recovery of a flying saucer and bodies at Ray Paners and Air Force Base in 1950. Did he have the document? Well, he had, no, he had the, uh, MJ 12 dog way, but he said Sarbacher told me this. Yeah. So, uh, Walker, we're known as Walker and the MJ 12 docs. No. Okay. No. So he said Sarb, well, Sarbacher said you had been at a briefing. So he said, he basically just said, Sarbacher said you had been at a briefing at Ray Pan. And then what did Eric Walker said? So what? And then Simon went crazy. What do you mean? This is an important story. And he said, well, come down. Come down. And he's, he's just said, yeah, I was there. And he basically admits, he said, I'm known of them for 40 years, which convinced me that this is real deal because this is 1980 70 does the interview. I've known of them, MJ 12 for 40 years. Leave it alone. There's nothing you can do about it. And that's when he started this whole thing, uh, unless you have the mind of Einstein, you're not, you're not going to make any of this chasing your tail. Yeah. This is whole idea that I believe now that that may be what the cover-ups about is that they have bodies and crafts, but Obama and all these people are telling the truth that we don't know anything about that. Yeah. This story's real. There are real photos. There are real, uh, bodies and crafts, but we don't have the answers. And that's what they're trying to hide is the, the, the, the phenomena about the, how you propel the craft, how you control it, all this kind of stuff, the mind stuff that they're, yeah, that they're trying to control. And that's the cover-up story that you can't have the president come out and say. And I think Trump now has made the release, so I think he's in big trouble because what happens is what Eric Walker said to us is, you're just curious, admit it, you're just curious. Why should we change the rules and regulations to satisfy your curiosity? And he was 100% right, 99.9% of people just want to hear a good story. They just want to know. And so what you're going to have is whatever Trump says, like he's supposed to have this speech, July the 8th, the anniversary of Roswell, he's going to make this speech and he's going to say, yeah, you also exist, but I don't really believe it. I'd lot of people like this kind of stuff. I met these Navy guys. They're really nice guys. You can make that kind of speech, but I, I really don't know and you think Trump will make a speech. I, after I heard Laura Bush, I would say, I'm going 50/50, there's going to be a speech because he's in a box now. He's in a box. He's, he's, people don't realize, like semi-vam points out, this is a P. This is a presidential emergency action document. This is how it started, which means it's an executive program. The president is running the cover up. So once Trump got caught off guard, he just said, oh, you shouldn't have talked about that as classified. Now suddenly, every realize is like Trump knows, Trump's now going to face the one million and one questions, which will Walker was trying to do is back you off. We haven't, we're not going to answer one million questions because you just curious. You're going to say, oh, there's bodies and crafts, then somebody's going to say, okay, where they're from. Okay. Now, you know, why are they here? Well, how's the chip made of? The questions will never end, and the president can't be answering all his questions because they don't know. They may know a little bit about the mail, a little bit about this, but what you're doing, I said the night the Trump announced, they must have had a party beyond reports in the Kremlin with a vodka flowing, like, oh, my God, you're going to release this stuff, and they sit there. It's like a game of cards. You see, you're a poker. If you want to, everybody wants to send me to put their cards on the table, nobody wants to put their cards on the table because you may put your cards on the table, and the Russians have the parts, the cards that you're missing. Speaking of past presidents who had some exposure to this stuff, Nixon is a really interesting kind of apocryphal story that is told by Jackie Gleason's ex-wife Beverly McKitrick. Do you want to tell this story, and I want to also just get your take on whether you think this actually happened because it's one of the most remarkable stories. Joe Rogan always brings it up and says, I love this story. It's one of my favorite stories because it ends with Jackie Gleason being so obsessed with UFOs that he ends up with a UFO-shaped house in upstate New York. Yeah. I actually arranged that interview with his wife, David Rudiak was the guy that found her. We were looking for her to do the story, and she was selling the silverware. She was selling the silverware, so we got a guy out of Ohio who was actually died now. He went and did the interview. She told the interview. She was going to write a book, which really got Jackie upset, and she got into National Empire. They had done a story, and he was really upset that she had made this public. She told us the story that you see the fooling around with women, or this actually happened because he was pretty shaken up when he came home. He was really rattle when he came home, which is almost the same sort of story as semi-guide. When you actually get the truth, it just blows them away. You think you'll handle it, and you don't know how to handle it. I looked at it because I was at the National Archives where the Nixon stuff was, and I tried to track down everything that I could find there. What I did find is it would make sense because when Nixon was there, I can't remember how many times he went to the, they called the Southern White Outs, in Key Biscayne, Florida, they would land at Holleman, and then they would take Marine One, the helicopter, from Holleman to, so he would land at Holleman, like in his presidency, 200 times. He would have known the base. Where is Holleman? It's just near, it's south Florida, it's near Key Biscayne, so they would just fly to Key Biscayne. That's where the house was. And Nixon, we had heard these stories like they said, "Oh, he couldn't get away from his security." So I checked it, and sure enough, he got away from his security lots of times. He didn't want, he hated it. That's a security. And what he would do is get the cook to drive out and he would be in the back seat under a blanket and he would find him on a bar and the secret service would have to find out where he is and go drive him out of the bar and bring him back to the White House and stuff like that. So I knew that part of the story was right that he could get a car. He could get, 'cause that was the thing, President can't get a car. But I could confirm, yeah, the president can get a car and that he knew Hallamann backwards and forwards. And this whole thing with Jackie Gleason that he was obsessed with UFOs and that kind of stuff. And he was able to. - I thought it was Homestead Air Force Base. - Yeah, Homestead, part of it. - Yeah, yeah, I was confused. - It was Holmstead in New Mexico. - Homestead, yeah, I was like trying to update it. - Yeah, it's close, but not there. - Yeah, so he, and so yeah, I believe that story's true. And there was a story that he had folders, he had a folder in his filing account with the alien dead bodies. They would show these photographs. There was that story about Nixon. Nixon apparently was just fascinated with it. - Well, it's interesting. We basically know that Watergate was an inside job. And it was a set up to Austin, Nixon. Mark Felt is the deputy director of the FBI. He's deep throughout and he's giving a tip to a guy who just came out of the naval spy ring. The Office of Naval Intelligence, Bob Woodward. And so this whole thing is just this excuse to get rid of Nixon. He wanted to, you know, basically do a cut of the CIA by a third, you know, big force reduction. And I think he was also interested in a lot of this kind of spookier tech. And I think there's a section in Mark Felt's autobiography where he talks about Nixon having seen some pretty specialized covert technology. And so I wonder if that's what he was speaking about. High level is, you know, what he saw at home instead of Air Force Base. What he might have shown Gleason there. Who knows? - It could be because the thing that was a controversy around Bob was the fact that Bob got a letter from Nixon and said thank you for your cooperation on the project we were working on. And he showed it to Linda Howe and Larry Bryant, I think we're in LA at a big host in LA in Hollywood and showed him this letter. And then he started to deny he had this letter. And we actually asked him one interview, D. And he said, well, no, I got a letter. And he sent a present, sends out a letter trying to recruit people. If you got anybody and you kept talking about this letter and he said, no, no. And so one time Linda said, we were at a conference and says, come on, we're going for dinner with Bob. I'm gonna get him to talk. So we're going there and she's just giving it to him. Oh, I felt sorry for Bob. And Bob was saying nothing. He had his head down, his wife had her head down, wasn't coming or anything. She said, come on, Bob, you got to admit it. You showed me that letter. Nixon was involved. He didn't say anything. And then me and Angela got up. I laughed and said, I'll leave you to Linda. And I walked off and Linda didn't talk to me for like a year or two years. She thought it was mad at her. I said, no, I thought it was kind of funny that you were you were growing this guy. I said, Linda would get it out of you. But Linda confronted him numerous times about this letter that he'd gotten a letter thanking him that the whole thing was approved. The same as the one with UFO cover up live was a couple days before the Nixon before Reagan left office. And it was sort of like a present to the people as I'm leaving. Just documentary. Well, Nixon I believe was also head of the 5412 Commission under Eisenhower. And that was this continuity of government and initiative. But also to give, do you kind of enter agency coordination between all these intelligence agencies and probably do some pretty spooky covert stuff and give the president a plausible deniability on it. And then it probably turned into its own runaway sort of thing. Some people think the majestic 12 have to do with those sorts of programs. These call me tell me to tell you my version story. So John Alexander was doing an interview. I've got it in one of my books. I list all the MJ 12 stuff. I mean, there's no doubt there's 20 high-level people talk about MJ 12. But John talked about it in an interview. And he said, yeah, there was, but it didn't have anything to do with UFOs. And he said, well, it had to do it. Had to do with continuity of government. And the guy that showed him, told him the MJ 12 is real, said, you look at the people on the list and you should tell you what's going on. So I had that. And then Paul Heller chose the story. So Paul Heller chose the story. And I'm sitting right beside him. We're in Brantford, Ontario. And he goes around. And he said, who in the government knows? And he goes, yeah, I don't know. Because Paul Heller really didn't know much. So he said, yeah, I had the privy council, which is pretty high as the guy under the prime minister. The head of the privy council. And he's, yeah, I really don't know. And it goes around. And it comes around the second round of questions. And he says, we're your first question. He says, I do know some of you knows. And he tells the story. He says, I got a phone call from this Air Force guy. And he said, the head of emergency management, which is the Canadian version, is about to go off the cliff. He's got Lou Gehrig's disease, LAS. And he's about to go, he's dying. And he's got something he's got to get off his chest. And he's decided you're the guy he wants to tell. So Paul says, yeah, I have a phone guy. And he doesn't phone the guy. And then this guy phones him back. That's when he says, Paul, the guy is about to go off the cliff. You better talk to him. So he phones the guy up. And the guy says, I just want to get something off my chest before I die. It's real. It's all real. He says, I got taken to the United States. And it would make sense if you're emergency management. Even if you don't believe in aliens, you've got an alien plan. In case there happens to be an alien vision, emergency management's got to have some plan. They've got a million plans for every lousy thing that could go wrong. And he said, I get taken to Washington, to Langley. I signed my life away. And then he took me to Area 51 and I sat inside a craft. That's what he told Paul. And I'm going, what is like the only cow? And so then the guy ends up dying. And then the other piece of the evidence came. So I'm doing research on the Kexpert crash because Walker claimed he was there. So I'm doing research on that. And we're looking at the blue book files. And the blue book files talk about the fact that some metal had come down in Michigan. Because this thing came all across Minnesota, Michigan, Ohio, down in Pennsylvania made this turn and crashed in Kexpert. So there was some reports that there was some metal that had come down in Michigan. And then there was another one that said, it was sent to project code word greengrass. And I go, what is that is? And look it up. Small weather. So where they take the president when there's a nuclear attack. So they were sending this information on the Kexpert crash to Mountweather. And one of Greer's witnesses is Stephen Lovekin. He was this lawyer guy. And I interviewed him every site. He was maybe making it up and stuff like that. So I talked to him about being inside Mountweather with Eisenhower. And he said, Eisenhower would doodle the UFO stuff and that sort of stuff. And that Eisenhower was, this is where UFOs were headquartered. This is where all the UFO stuff goes. Because it makes sense that if they just drop the bombs, they're gonna drop the bombs on the White House, all this sort of stuff. You need a place that is contained. Mountweather has communications to all the military, all the embassies. It's underground. And that's where they, I think they took one time they took the president there and then he took vice president there and this sort of stuff. And it's this underground city thing. And one of Greer's witnesses was saying and didn't make any sense until you put these all together that this is continuity of government. That this is part of the thing. If there's an alien invasion, we have to have this covered and that the head of FEMA was there the day after, the first meeting that Johnson had when he came back to the White House after Kexberg was the head of FEMA with the emergency management. So you started looking at this thing. Do they see it as a continuity of government thing? Or are they hiding it under a piece? So they're hiding it under something that doesn't really seem that it applies. They're cutting you to government. You say, it's got nothing to do with UFOs. Probably everything you do is you always look at a whole division that's dealing with this. And that's the way I looked at that. There was a lot of stuff that seemed to show that Mount Weather did have this UFO connection. - Where is Mount Weather? - It's about 60 miles out of Washington, I think. - Well Virginia, I think. - Okay. - But it's just huge. - One of these like Cheyenne mountain complex type of contingency plan. - Where you can put the new government, the new government gets excited. They have a president, vice president, if they're all dead, they have people are nominated and keep the government going under this. - Do you think that is be like super deep metaconspiracy, but do you think that part of the modern narrative around disclosure is like, okay, so you're on the inside, you know, you have biologics, you have crashes, you have material, you have all these things, but you really don't know how a lot of it works. And you know the size stuff is real, but maybe there's some vital core group that understands that to a better degree. But it's very disorganized, not clear how you can instrumentalize a lot of it. Maybe there's a point of exhaustion and you go, how can we use this star advantage? And then you start to think, okay, our democracy seems like it's sort of unraveling. And you can execute some sort of continuity of government contingency plan or something and you blame it on alien invasion or things like that. You know, these are things like, they talk about project blue beam and things like that. And you know, usually I think it's pretty mushy brained people who are convinced that everything in this world is based on one of these sort of crazy, crazy plans. But do you think that given this insight that there is this continuity or this thread between continuity of government and people involved in the alien issue, do you think that that could be part of what's going on? You're sort of in some ways taking the president a step down, he's sitting his authority by saying that there's something else going on. And then if there is some false flag in that area then all of a sudden it's like, oh, the generals need to be in charge or something like that. - Yeah, well, I see that although the way I saw it, 'cause in a lot of the presidential libraries when I went in there, I'd be finished to UFO stuff in about three hours 'cause there are no documents in the UFO in the libraries. And then I would read all these with the call or histories. So if you were to cook the White House and say, "Hey, Jesse, you were to cook the White House." How do the president eat? Did he ever steal food in the middle of the night? All these. goofy questions they ask, and I read all these oral histories of these guys, and I'd see how they made decisions, and I'd go, "I see why he made that decision." He figures a bad guy, and then I read his oral history, and I'd go, "I can't understand why he did that." You see the background. To me, it was always this thing where it was more like six layers of paperwork that you got to do for everything. It's just bogged down where nothing gets done, where maybe even in the UFO thing, that's what they complain. It's compartmentalized, and nothing's getting done, and where a hand does not know what the left hand is doing. That was more my thing of the government in terms of. In this last administration, I can't see, because I got the whole briefing thing with Trump, and you'll see, I think I said to my FOA's, and one of the ones I asked was for all the-- This is a Freedom of Information Act request. What happens is, five years after the president is out, you can file for any documents you want. So, at one second after midnight on January the 20th, I filed 47 FOAs all at one time, and I want to be at the front of the line, because it's first come first serve. There was a big group out of Washington went after me one time with the Clintons and said, "Why is all this UFO stuff coming out?" I was like, "What? We want Hillary Clinton's email or not email, phone records." This is a waste of money and stuff like this, and I wrote them, I said, "First come first serve. That's how FOA works. Get lost. Go to hell. Stand in line. Put it in." And one of the requests I made was all documents that on Rant's previous, on UFOs for briefing of the president. And that is because I got called in. I got called in by Larry Fiscello, who's not well known in the UFO committee, pretty powerful, very rich guy, sort of works behind the scenes, helps people out, and stuff like that. And he's the guy that sort of hinted to me who Jim Semivan was, and then in 2016 I brought Jim Semivan's name out. And anyway, he called me up and he said, after Trump won in 2016, he said, "I need to help or do in a briefing for Rant's previous." And I said, "For what?" "UFOs." He said, "Where are the crafts and bodies?" I said, "I have no idea where the crafts and bodies are." And he said, "Well, you're doing a Trump briefing for it." And he said, "Well, you're not going to tell them." I said, "Well, who's they?" And he said, "Well, they see IA." And stuff. He appoints all these people. He appoints the NSA and they see IA. And he can, as he's shown, he can fire hundreds of thousands of people. He can go as deep as he wants and wipe out everybody. And I said, "Well, if they don't tell them, if he hires all these people as his aides, and then they don't tell them what's going on, I mean, who's fault is that?" He said, "Yeah, that makes sense." And that ended the conversation. But I see, I went for Rant's previous, I can't remember, it's hundreds of ages of stuff on briefing for the President of the United States. So it'll be all these people that were gathered and all the information they gave as to what we should tell Donald Trump, well, whether they block it or not, because they play the games with the FOIs, or even my UFO, I have to redo it. Your UFO is too broad and take too many categories and too expansive and all this sort of stuff. And we're not going to file it unless you specify exactly which files you want and stuff like that. I played these little games, but it's a world where FOIs don't really get anything. You file for them. But behind the scenes, the people that you talk to, you can get a lot of insight to, I think what's going on. I think the cover up to me is clearly the fact that it's, as James Takatsky said. He said it is very complex. It is very, very complex. And the reference was it is the equivalent of going from rocks and sticks to semiconductors or something like that. That's how far advanced this stuff is. Speaking of how complex and weird this is, there's a NASA mission controller named Tim Taylor who seems to pop up in all of these experiences, lives. People like Chris Bledso who obviously saw this figure, he calls the lady, maybe the goddess Hathor, maybe she's also the Virgin Mary, goes by many names and was given all these sort of prophecies. Obviously, he experiences a lot of UFO stuff as well. This is the message she told me that she had many names throughout history and that God is God. And we don't know what we think we know. We need to set back and reanalys and pick good children or we're going off the cliff, at least Streiber, Tim Taylor also is in contact with him, Charles Hall, who is at Area 51, claimed to live with tall white alien beings for years. So I find him fascinating because he's at the intersection of this guy, has worked on missions at NASA Cape Kennedy since the '80s. He worked on the Challenger mission and is a very credentialed guy. But then he's also popping up in these experiences, lives, and claiming all sorts of really out there things, saying that there's a hierarchy of being involving angels, and he says he works for an angel. He says that there are alien human hybrids, they exist above Intel. He says that he is sort of a time traveler and is a part of something called the Adjustment Bureau, involved in sort of changing timelines. And then the crazy thing that no one else will find crazy, but I'm obsessed with towns and brown, this mid-century inventor who really worked on gravity and anti-gravity, but gravity and time are connected. And so he really was interested in time travel himself, is Tim Taylor and Townsend Brown's daughter were working on a book together. And Tim Taylor also told Chris Blood so son that he was part of a secret time travel group out of NASA and the Bahamas. And I find that so fascinating because I know a lot about Townsend Brown and he was obsessed with time travel and he spent a lot of time in NASA on the Bahamas with some really spooky interesting people like William Stevenson, for example, who's a Canadian who was Churchill super spy, you know, and helped form the CIA. So what do you know about this Tim Taylor guy? Okay. I met him in 2013 and what happened was he's gone to a conference and I have a business friend of mine from Winnipeg, who basically like Chris Blood so he doesn't go to the lecture, he just sits out in the hallway and talks to people. So my friends talk and he meets Tim Taylor, finds out he's from NASA and they're going on a dig and this is the Anderson dig. This is the Anderson case and so he says we're going on this dig, you want to come along with us? So Tim says yeah, sure. So he did for a couple days they hang out and then they go to this dig and Tim is getting this stuff and I remember my friend said Tim said when some of the stuff came up, this is the real deal. And so he had that and that's all I really knew about him that they'd been at the dig. I didn't, I knew he was from NASA but I didn't really know anything about the guy. So I meet him out of this guy I talked to had all these tape calls from the, you know, the zillion calling on the phone and so we're in, he built a cabin, we're in the cabin. I'm there. My business friend is there, Chris blesses those there and Tim Taylor comes only for a day. I don't think he came in the morning. I think he left in the evening and according to Chris, he only came to meet Chris to get Chris's information because he was going to go to Chris's place. He wanted me Chris. He wasn't in Chris in the rest of it. And if I'd known who he was, I would have paid a little more attention to what I asked a few more questions. I didn't realize he was this like super black ops, whatever, all the tickets and stuff like that. So I had two conversations, one was the download conversation. So I had the download, so we're talking downloads and he talked to me about the invention. He gets the invention, resells this company for whatever, $100,000,000, $88,000,000 on whatever. And he's telling about the day he got the invention and Pusolco talks about it in the inner book about where they go to the Pentagon and the one star general says, "Who came up with this idea?" And they all pointed to him and he just came in his head in the morning. He said, "Grant, the last thing I remember the night before, I got that idea in my head. I woke up and it was a hooded figure standing at the end of bed." And I said, "Really?" "Can you see its face?" And he said, "How can you see its face?" I said, "You go to LA because he works with cancer kids and he's all medical stuff. So he's in operating rooms and looking at the equipment that they're using for cancer and they go to LA and to Miami." So I said, "You're in LA all the time. Why don't you get a regression with Ivan Smith and find out who the being was?" And he said, "Yeah, I might do that." And so that was the one conversation I had and the other one we had was, this is the one that ties into all of the stuff you're interested in. So he shows me this phone and that's what Tim Taylor does. He doesn't tell you anything. He just makes almost like read the breadcrumbs. Here's the breadcrumbs, figure it out. So he shows me this photograph and it's a painting and there's these two guys and they're flying through space. Now I've given you the photograph that I took when I went into the building. So they're flying through space and it looks like they got pajamas on. It's really weird. The name of the artist on it or anything like that. They're flying through space. One looks a little to the other and then he says, "What do you think of this?" And he goes, "I don't know, two guys flying through space." I don't know. And then he tells me that's one of these, the moons, it's one of these three paintings where the eclipse happens in the third painting and he shows me another photograph of all these balls going down a tunnel and they get smaller or whatever. And we think of this. Tim, I don't know. I have no idea. I don't know. Why are you showing me these photographs? Inside of the building, these outer space photographs on the other side of the building and he says, "I don't know." And he shows me this car. This is a very sensitive tie together. He shows me his car on the top of the park eight and it's like a 56 or 57 chef and he's got just like a close-up of the back seat and there's just a postcard there. He says, "You know what that is?" I said, "What?" He said, "Postcard." You know what it says? I said, "No, what does it say?" And some guy, "I wish I could travel through time and space to be with you." And I said, "That's what it says." And he says, "Yeah." And I said, "This is what do you think?" I said, "I still have no idea what you're talking about here." He said, "You know where this is?" I said, "No, I don't know." He said, "So you'll use their crap building." And they had turned it into an office complex. And I said, "I still know what you're talking about." And then he says, "Oh, I don't remember where he said this is where the jump room was." Or this is the story of the jump room, and I go, "Jump room." Can I see those photographs again? And he says, "It's been photographs." And he said, "The first one, these two guys flying through space." And he says, "You know what that is?" And I said, "No, it's just right outside the elevator." I said, "Really?" And the story is, the CIA story is they go up to the fifth floor, and then on the elevator, and then it goes across, and then they jump to Mars, and Obama's been there. And I always thought it was a garbage story, and I'd say, "I go who I actually had dinner with." And he's a really smart guy. He's a really impressive guy when you talk to him. And so I formed up Andy, and I said, "Andy, are you in the front building, or are you in the back building where you're doing the jump thing?" He said, "I don't remember. It was a little kid, I don't remember." And because this is in the front building. And so then he's, he has this, he's showing me this thing. And then I says, "Well, when I go, I'm going to photograph this." And it only occurred to me two years later. I'm thinking to myself, "What was Tim Taylor doing there?" If this is a stupid story, and this guy, 'cause then I learned who he was, if he's there, maybe the story's true. Like, why would he go to this building to check this story out? So I went there and I photographed it all. And he said, "Watch out for the guard." And it was this guard, and it ties into the whole portal thing. So I sort of changed from the, so Tim Taylor went to investigate the Andrew Basiago story. Okay, and Basiago is this guy who's done lectures on the fact that he's time-traveled. Yeah, it's a various place. And everybody thought it was a crazy case, but I thought it was a crazy case too. And then he met Basiago and he didn't seem that crazy. And he actually pressed me quite a bit. And the other thing was that why would Tim Taylor go there? I mean, why he lives in, I think he lives in Huntsville. And then the other story that with Tim was kind of funny, 'cause then he left, and they phoned me a couple of weeks later. He was on a restaurant in Huntsville. And it was really bad. I really couldn't figure out what he was talking about. He was like a lot of noise and stuff. I just remember the one part. And it sort of makes everybody feel better 'cause you always feel like Ronnie Dangerfield. I don't get any respect here. And he said, my wife, my daughter was talking to me the other day. She says, "Dad, you gotta be doing this stuff. "This is crazy. "What are you doing this crazy stuff for?" And he said, "I just told her." I said, "Remember where the Lexus comes from." And then he said, "She shut up." (laughing) So remember, even Tim Taylor, this high level guy, has this family trying to stop doing, you know what I mean? And is the implication there that it's because he created it? He's embarrassing. He's here embarrassing. Well, that for sure. But then he created Vivec's biotechnologies based on this download. But she wouldn't know how all the pieces of that. And that's like, you know, I think he sold that for like 88 million bucks or something. So he's implying that like his interest in the phenomena is what made him money there. He's not implying that he makes money by popping up into experiencers like that's his job. Is he? That's more like a fun thing outside of his NASA credential. I believe that's the secret. I think he is. Well, that's impossible. People think it is. It's this weird phenomenon. Because that's what the biggest, do you think his work at the aerospace corporation has anything to do with UFOs? Well, I think they're all working on it. I mean, you know, he'd be working on those specific aspects that lead down that road wherever he is. Because that's another federally funded research and development center, just like IDA, that we mentioned. Yeah, yeah. So he, that's the thing, I believe. Because that's what I came to. Because I spent a lot of time with Ron Pendolfi. And the main film I got, he always calls me a crook and a thief. Because I got this video that he put up on the internet. And I figured like, why would I not take this off the internet? And it was posted by his wife. And it's them going through the Panama Canal. And they're sitting there as Ron. Ron's wife, Aliyah. Kashmir is sitting on Ron's lap. This guy by name of John Silas, and his sitting right beside Pendolfi. And Dan Smith is there and the photographers there. And this thing's going on. And they're just talking. There's a lot of noise in the cafeteria. So his wife says to him, so footman, 'cause they always use these code names. Like he's the footman, she's the princess. He takes care of her, she's the princess. Whatever. So he's the footman. What do you say? And he says, quote, people have always wondered what it's like to go into the next world. There's been a breakthrough. The next time John, and he looks over at this John guy, next time John goes to the desert, a number of us here will go into the next world and come back again. And I went, wow, I can hear this film. And Mac could be got all the film. And he went to Ryan, he said, do you see Gratz posted in this point video? And he said that guy's a crook, that thief and stuff. It's like the most important video I've ever seen 'cause that was the whole deal. So I was talking to this guy by name Doug Alt. And he was very good friends with both of them. And then all this thing about the portal started. That they had the portal and she'd come out of this portal and stuff like that, kept talking portals. So I said to Doug, he said, I'm getting tired of this. I mean, I've been chasing Pendolfi for 25 years. And I still say the biggest question you followed is not what are you up for. It's what the hell's around Pendolfi doing. What's he up to? And I said, I'm tired of this. I'm gonna take off. Do you think I should, I'm just interested in the portal store. That's all I'm interested in. Do you think I should take off or should I stay around? And then he's positive. He goes, yeah, he should probably stick around. And then about two, three years later, I'm talking to, he's talking a lot of hockey. So we're talking hockey. And he says, everybody had a question. He asked me a couple of years ago and I said, yeah, it's real. Who said that? Doug Alt. He said, it's real. Who is Doug Alt? He's a friend, he's a painter. So Elias a painter. And he's, he's a realistic, realistic painter. Like you, you'll paint, what's his connection with all these? Oh, he just, I introduce all these people. So what I do is I introduce all these people to Ron Pendolfi and then they all talk to him. And then I say, what's Ron saying? So I got all these sources around Ron who were telling, I never talked to Ron, I talked to him a few times, but I don't talk to him. I just listen to these people all around him. What's Ron saying? What do you say about this? What do you say about that? Tell me about Ron himself. 'Cause he pops up in UFO world a lot. He's sort of seems to be deep-unking people. I cause people leans and cricks. And he called, Doug was doing a Broadway play off-Blood Roy play. And there was a song about Ron. It was called the "Offication." The Ron had told him, "I'm here to office gate." Okay. And yet he's like disclosing, but he's not disclosing. And that's this method that they use. That you can't tell where he's telling the truth or not. It starts in '91. So he's talking to his friend Dan Smith. Dan Smith said he said, "A thousand conversations with Ron but UFOs." And Ron is this very high level guy. He's been at the CIS since '84. He's rumored to brief the president's on Chinese tech and stuff like this. And so he meets Dan Smith. Dan Smith's trying to find out about crop circles. So he gets the phone number. They give him phone number for Ron. This guy probably knows. He phones up and he starts talking and so he meets and he says, "I'm going to Los Alamos this week. I'm going to talk to him, I'm talking to live alien." So Dan Smith, he's a good multi-millionaire. He says, "Okay fine, he posts it." He says, "Ron Pendolfi from the CIS." He's going to talk to aliens at Los Alamos. So Ron contacts, he says, "The next time you post, do you not put my name and CIS in the same sense?" He didn't seem concerned about the live alien thing. So Dan Smith phones Los Alamos. And he says, "I want to know what Ron Pendolfi is. He's coming there." And he said, "Hang on." And who comes on the line with John Alexander? And he said, "Yeah, he's coming here." And so that's how it started with this thing going to the live alien. So he tells all these stories. And then Ron gets mad and he says, "Dan Smith's crazy, he's psychotic." And he just repeat all the stuff. He says it's not true, but he's feeding him stuff. He's feeding him all these things about the portal and stuff like that. And actuators with this John Sillison guy that there's these actuators that they pull out of the portals. And they've actually got this technology. And at one point they were actually going to tell me, I was talking to one of Ron's assistants 'cause I work on portals as well at Mount Shasta. I've got these four main cases where I talk to people who are in the portal. They win into the portal. And as the portal, like you go into another time, you go into another-- - They can go right, they can step from here onto another planet. Just take one step and you're on another planet. - On another planet. - On another planet. - Or you can go into the portal in Mount Shasta where the alien comes, the alien, there's theories. The alien lowers the vibration. People do oaming, meditating, all of a sudden they raise their vibration and then this being comes. So in 2014 they opened one. In 2015 I interviewed almost everybody that was in the portal. What did you see? He was this 10-foot tall guy and he had boots on. He had this thing on his chest and these sparks are coming out of this thing. And then what do you see? This 10-foot tall guy and he's two other beings and he's the people hiding behind trees. And he looked like little iPads and they believed they were the engineers that were keeping the-- - Well, you think Pandolfi is like in charge of these sort of, he's looking into these portals. - Yeah, that he's the UFO technology that he's protecting it but he's also making these sort of indirect disclosures about this whole thing. And in case anybody thinks we're sort of crazy here, I believe he also was in charge of the Jason's, right? He provided material for the Jason. So Jason came out of IDA. There's one, I think it was Miter. I think his wife used to work for the Miter Corporation or whatever, there's connections there. But there's a document that's found about gravitational waves where he was finding the speakers. It shows Rambindolfi's providing the brief first. Why do you think he's so interested in gravitational waves? Well, he's interested in everything. He's interested in everything. He's either in the big ecologists and stuff like that. And so he was not on the Jason's? - No. - 'Cause somebody said he set the agenda for the Jason. - Well, he was providing the speakers providing, I think it was this. speakers are just the reasons the one time is caught on paper, so you never almost catch them on paper. Like you can do FOAs on them. You won't show up on FOAs. He disappears into the one of these guys where he's totally protected as to who he is. We were trying to find out. I couldn't even find out what agency worked for. It was like, is he working for CIA still? Is he working for because he apparently worked for a director of national diligence. And then he was at the White House and then Dan Smith says he's taking care of hamsters. They do this bizarre stuff. Do you think there are secret societies that, you know, you have the JFK speech, but where are the secret societies? And we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings. They exist at a level kind of more fundamental than intelligence agencies. And these groups have to do with the UFO secrets at all. Well, they would have all sorts. I would say the secret societies are the guys with the money. So one of the big things in Washington was the Cosmos Club. That the people who went to the Cosmos Club were the insiders that they have these meetings. And I think it's all like you do business. So whatever level you're talking to people at business, you're making a deal. And if you're talking to a high level guy and you're a high level guy, they're talking about they may have a UFO thing going and they may have something else going. And it's all about, you know, trying to do whatever they're doing and make money. And I think it's mostly got to do with money and power and who you know, that's where the Avery came from. These guys that you have all these people trying to figure out stuff. And then these high level guys who had some engagement with UFOs suddenly find out what's going on. And and they realize these other people around and they start talking to you of any concrete examples of the connection between the Cosmos Club and UFOs. Walker was Walker was one of the one of the people that's one of the things we discovered. And then I would look at bios of all these high level guys and be Cosmos Cozor Stan Cosmos Cozor. Is that still around or? Yep. I think so. Yeah. So that's that's one of the things. And I mean, I haven't even do it, but it just it just popped up all the time. And what about like families like, you know, the Rockefellers, like Lawrence Rockefeller was obsessed with UFOs. I tried to get Hillary Clinton into UFO disclosure, right? Yeah. And and I I tried to get people to his files are still there. And I think it's a Princeton, but I'm not 100% sure. But his files are there and there's got to be a gold mine, even though his family may have destroyed some of the stuff because they had no use for him being in this. He was embarrassing to the family and stuff like that. And so he had an interesting story I could tell about about there. When I the one big thing I first got was I filed. Maccabee had filed. There was a friend of Ron Pendolfi filed first. Then Maccabee filed. First guy got 200 pages. Maccabee got 500 pages. So I filed for all the the what's called the Rockefeller initiative now where Rockefeller goes he he's talking bud talk and still made a story. He's there Jacobs and him are at him and Mac are at Rockefeller's house and Rockefeller's like a butler and he's taking it and bringing on breakfast and stuff like that. And they thought it's just kind of weird. It was billionaires, you know, fitness breakfast and stuff. And he said, I'm going to I'm going to get disclosure. And he said, what do you mean? I'm going to the president. I'm going to tell him the skulls. And they said, we did he's not going to I'm going to the president and he's going to disclose. And he said, well, Mr. Rockefeller, I don't think that's how it works. I don't care. I'm going to get disclosure. So they had just they knew he was coming. And that's when Pendolfi gets involved. So they have to get a briefing because Gibbons, they realize there's going to be as big me on UFOs. And they got to find out what's the government position. What do we say? So Gibbons calls in Mac. He calls in Ron Pendolfi to do the briefing. And this has been established. So Ron was called to do the briefings. This is the idea that he'll brief executive people, but the president of something comes up as to what the actual fact is, like, Ron, there's even an email. I have a Ron says, these senators and congressmen, they're always asking these questions. And they don't realize that it's it's not the material. It's the access to the material. And you can get on a lot of trouble. And I tell the senators that and they just let me carry the keys. So I call them to keep the guy with the keys. He has the keys to all the compartments. He knows exactly what's classified, what's not classified. So you think Ron Pendolfi exists at the top of the UFO pyramid for the government for absolutely. And isn't didn't he do some metallurgy related to? Well, that's that's another story. The story was that his father gave him a piece that he was they were involved with the glomer explorer. And so Ron had this piece and he did a paper when he was 16 years old. And it was one of the reasons why he got recruited. He did this metallurgy. Yeah, I think apparently he's not a physicist. He's a chemist. And he did this metallurgy analysis at 16 years old at UFO piece. Well, it's a piece of something. Ron will never tell you a straight story. Okay. I mean, he did. And for context, glomer explorer was this huge aircraft subsea explorer that a lot of people think maybe retrieved, you know, exotic technology at the sea floor. And then there's a story that his father gave him a piece. And then he was taken away. I don't know. There's the stories run, run, run, never really. But it definitely there was a piece he did analysis very young age. And that had something to do with how he got involved with UFOs and stuff like that. And then then you get like, there's always these connections. Like, for example, Kit Green. Kit Green was involved in glomer explorer. So it was the Eric Walker really. And so when Kit Green saw Eric Walker's bio, he says to Jack finally, have you seen this guy's bio? This guy is unbelievable. And they were looking out our book of what Walker had said. And this guy is claiming this and that. And he said, I'm going to get a clearance. I'm going to go talk to him because I talked to Bill Moore. And Bill Moore says, I don't believe this Walker guy's as high as you say is, but I got a friend. His name is BJ. He's going to go in and talk to him. And BJ is the Blue Jay. The Kit Green is the Blue Jay. So Kit Green gets his clearance and he goes to Walker at Penn State. And according to Jacques, probably the way the stories they're sitting there and they talk about glomer explorer, CIA days, glomer explorer. And they both worked on it and stuff like that. And everything was going good. And then Kit brings up UFOs. You made these statements about crash saucers and stuff like that. And he said, Walker just blew up. And he said, yelling at him, you're not the president. I don't have to tell you anything. What do you think? I don't tell you anything. You get a letter from the president. I'll check it to make sure it's from the president. And then I'll talk to you. And you get out of my, and he's talking to a bunch of books on a corner to give the indication that he'd gone crazy and that the room was tapped. And there was these, there's the room was tapped. And they were listening to the books and get out of my office. And Kit Green, Kit Green out of the office. Wow. And so this is a story that Kit Green's told and Jack well, he tells it in his diary. Kit Green is held a long CIA. He said, I'll get the clearance. He got the clearance necessary to talk to him. And there was the one condition who's and this comes back to the thing about the president. And you're not the president. And Jack Valle writes about this and forbidden science as Diaries. Yeah. That's fascinating. Yeah. Well, what's interesting to me is you're saying that Ron Pindolfi is ahead of the CIA weird desk. And he sits at the top of the pyramid and he kind of knows where all the compartments are. But then you're simultaneously saying his predecessor, Kit Green, who also ran the CIA weird desk, didn't really have an understanding of the program. Well, the story I heard was that Kit Green basically had been read in on most of it, but he couldn't get read in on the autopsy thing. And that he was fighting. And they had given him an offer to do it. And then they would pull it back and all this guy. That's the story. I was hearing back 20 years ago that he couldn't get read into that program that he knew sort of the other stuff. And but he knows a lot. I think he was one of the people that briefed Semivand because he's the guy that told Semivand about Tom DeLong. He said, this guy's music guy and he's doing this sort of stuff. And then they went to Tom DeLong. It was Semivand and Kit Green. They got Tom DeLong in a hotel room. And he said, like, where'd you get this stuff from? Because they realized this was some of the stuff was was borderline classified material. It was in Tom DeLong's book. And for they were apparently for two days to talk to Tom DeLong. And then they realized, oh, he's nothing. And they realized the program. They say they realized there's nothing classified. And so they dropped it. But then he becomes co-owner or whatever to the stars with Semivand and Tom DeLong, which indicates that they go along at the program. They realized he knows he knows all the guys. He knows McCastlin. He knows rice and stuff. And what are you doing with this guy? And that's what happened with John Podesta. So when when when Tom DeLong goes to Podesta, Podesta says, well, call me back in a couple of months. I'm kind of busy right now. And what Podesta is doing is he's got to run the thing. Who's talking to this? Who's talking to this guy? What are we doing? Are we dropping something on this guy and stuff like that? And then they give them the clearance. So then it's Podesta phones phones Tom DeLong and says, I'm ready. This is important to light a Washington. And then he flies. So suddenly John Podesta somebody's told him, you can work with this guy. This is what you can tell him. And they have this meeting where all these guys are at this meeting in 2016 in January. And that you have the weird story where John Podesta, he always told the story when he was in Clinton and White House. His joke about he would always leave. He's worked day and night at the White House. But when his ex files, he went home, started with 30 and I just let me go home and watch the ex files. And then in the in the meeting, I make the joke where one of the people in there is Robert Weiss in the meeting. So Robert Weiss after they have this meeting with John Podesta about disclosure, whatever they're doing because Hillary was going to disclose. That's clear. And after a couple days after Robert Weiss writes a letter and says, is we got any information, any follow up information because I guess we're going to follow up on this kind of stuff. And now you've got the area 51 guy phoning to find out what's with what they know about area 51. And before it was he's asking John Podesta what's going on every 51 and John Podesta before was asking what's he wanted to go to area 51 and find it was going on, talk to them. So you got this whole thing where Hillary was going to disclose. And then what happened was the leak of the emails, the Podesta emails and at all the three, I call them the three kings, Podesta, McCay and Robert Weiss. They get exposed and suddenly boom they blow in their cover and they've never appeared since they've just disappeared into nowhere And then you have to bring in the B team. So then he brings in Luzando and that I call them the B team they bring them in but what happened now you've even talked to Chris So when Hillary lost the election because they talked about the seven-year plan the same as Schumer They talked about the seven-year plan with the nine people under the president and we've got a subpoena power And we can force for force all the material back from the contractors and stuff That was all before 2016 Hillary was gonna do it and Hillary According to the pedestal notes she had this all planned that she would they were gonna promote the stuff and John Pedesta was actually saying ask her about the aliens one of the reporters come on ask her about the aliens They want he wanted this story out because they wanted Hillary to talk about she was gonna do the disclosure thing And she was gonna go on Kimmel in November of 2015 and she went on there and he didn't ask her the UFO question And then she wanted the pedestal thing. She was furious. She practiced this five-minute spiel She had it all down what she was gonna say no way didn't ask her a question. How do you know that so Kim it's in it's in the it's in new Pressed emails. Holy shit. And then she and then she goes in April Well, and then he asks her the question and that's when she says I'm gonna get to the bottom of this and he said Well, your husband tried to get to the bottom of it and he couldn't get anywhere. Well, I'm gonna do it again She said I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna do it again. You get this is all planned that she was gonna do the disclosure So when she didn't get it Chris bless it was feeding me all the material about what was going on They were gonna drop this thing with Hillary Clinton. They had to all planned out and all this stuff is gonna be disclosure and then Hillary lost the election so I phoned up Chris the same day. I said Chris So what's going on? Is it dead? Is it no? He said green light still going see him bigger than before and I go okay And then it took him nine ten months for Tom to long to get the the next team of people and then did they made that October 11th Appearance on to the stars and that's when two the stars happened now if there's a subject That could potentially change the world How would one approach it? Especially if the subject contained earth changing technology It was gonna happen before it's all planned Absolutely before you even have the the emails going to the Rockefeller thing Hillary was really into this thing They had the there's two documents in the Rockefeller files and I couldn't figure out what they were once said all the stuff going from Rockefeller to the Science advisor from science advisor to the Rockefeller is going through the mail the mailbox of Hillary Clinton I'm going why would Hillary Clinton be why would we go into her office? And then the the other what I Can't wait a second, but this one I figured out what it was was the president is as he told Rockefeller at the ranch He told Rockefeller. It's like the story of the Tar Baby you're in the Arkansas Tar Baby story. That's what it's like you can't touch it if you touch it You get stuck to it and then you try to fight you get stuck again You can't go any fight and you get stuck and he told Rockefeller. It's I can't touch it It's like the Rockefeller or Tar Baby and so who said this? Clinton to Rockefeller at the ranch and so he he Hillary or Bill Bill okay, because Hillary didn't come down They did the briefing Rockefeller wanted to get him away from the CIA at the ranch. Then he gave the briefing and Hillary Hillary watched the briefing and it was Bill's birthday Bill didn't come down to the briefing he didn't because the president can't be involved He can't he can't touch the subject because then he gets stuck and that's the problem I say Trump has right now. He's touched the Tar Baby and now he's stuck to the Tar Baby and he's gonna have to ask our Million and one questions about what's going on all the conspiracy theories all the sort he's just gonna be in a date It's gonna be stop. It's like the Epstein stop. Stop. Is there anything else we can talk about here except you off? Oh, he's gonna get frustrated with all the questions. He's got but So the reason they put it through her is that she knew what was going on between Rockefeller and the science advisor And she'd go to Bill in the evening and say this is what's going on and then he tell her what to say She wasn't part of the government so she could she could do this group of stuff They didn't want any paper trail leading to the president and and that that's what I think goes on is that the president This are told this plausible liability thing if you really need something. We'll redo in on it or the basic policy Because according to semi-vend the basic policy is that it's a programming and people say well security clearances Well, the president controls all security clearances. He's all security clearances goes through the executive office of the president He's people don't realize he's in control of security clear. He doesn't have a security clearance So you can fire anybody pull your security clearance. He pulled you know Biden secure Well, that's why when you hear stuff like I want to get to the bottom of it in your Trump you should expect him to get to the bottom of it This is all this stuff rolls up, you know eventually to the executive branch So and I think they just tell him it better to stay clear don't touch it and if you need something We'll tell you what's going on. It's being controlled by these people. Yeah, well, maybe there's a tight shift now because Trump is so Volatile and hard to predict and you know, well, I think he got caught off guard I don't think he realized because that's what happened the Fox News guy asked asked him well, you know Obama said this or whatever well then but then he doubled down And then he said well, it's class it's classified material and then the the reporter said so you're saying aliens are real and they went Oh, no, no, no, and then he started to back off and he realized he'd said this that it was classified and that so I say that it wasn't Obama The broke this the classification because he didn't say this is classified material, but Obama said or Trump said that's Aliens that's classified which means you're exposing a classified program if it's if there's a somebody ask you about a classified program You're supposed to say I can either confirm or deny or say no you lie You do not expose because the even the existence of the program is exposing the program if somebody realizes there is actually a program Then everybody knows where to go and that's what happened to Jimmy Carter when he's trying to get reelected He mentioned the stealth and that's one of the reasons why he was it's just absolutely ridiculed because they had to move all the parts And they had open Satellites were suddenly going over Burbank. They knew where the where the stealth was being built and stuff like that Never just furious at him because he'd made this so it reference to the stealth. I grant you are clearly a wealth of anecdotes I'm just so impressed Your knowledge over over the last you know three or four decades on this topic. It's just really really impressive I I want to give in how much you know get to some discrete truths because I think in UFO world Often you end up in sort of everything is everything land, you know, and it's I think it's important to kind of concretize things so You do you believe you we have crash retrieval universe engineering programs? Yes Do you believe this sort of time travel portal thing as well? There are programs where people are going into jump rooms and Going across time and space through I would say nature reality if you go down to no time there's no space You get into that kind of stuff. That's where Jim semifan said it's indigestible But has this been turned into technology that is repeatedly usable in a predictable way So I want to go to metal. I was something like metal Knit and all I think was something developed from the Roswell crash You but I'm talking about the portal stuff so like yeah Well, this is the word this tape from Ron because he didn't know it was gonna be public He had no idea that that I would grab this off the internet and grab it and he's definitely talking about portals And when I talk to these people in the portals That's definitely true and then I hear the story but you think they can walk into a room and we can predictably because Andrew Bossyaga. Let's just get yeah clear. He literally says I want back to the Gettysburg address So like do you think that there's a way to predictably send somebody to a specific moment in time and the government knows that? I think there's a better chance of that than they we have some sort of ships that are flying To other planets. I the nuts and bolts thing. I think it's gonna fall apart It's more so you think we don't we haven't made a lot of progress on the crafts we do that if we got any technology It's going to be portal time travel technology, okay, and then we don't we haven't made a lot of progress on the craft So we had lots according to semi van James Lukaski. They may be lying. They may be not read in But I look at my father's head tell the story of my my father was World War II's Air Force World War II So he brought this bomb home from World War II, you know, and it it was deactivated whatever And my keep my sons got it now, and I watched the Ukrainians drop bombs on the Russians and it's the same bomb It's really swells though, and I'm going like where's the high tech? I mean, you think we'd have this high tech. Oh, I do you lose the the Afghan work to a bunch of guys driving around on camels I mean this Somali had the fourth weakest army in the world and the Americans had to pull out of there and you start wondering Because all the technology the in the the F-47 coming now It's still playing with wings and it's going faster. It's got more jamming technology and all that kind of stuff I just don't see the technology, but when it comes to the the the the time stuff and the the mind stuff I'm sure they've got stuff. I even show the video one time about this is white-world technology. You can look it up Google rat brain F-22 and it's from the University of Southern California Southern Florida, and it's a guy doing he takes 20,000 neurons of a rat brain puts them in a little Petri dish Wires them into an F-22 simulator and they start sending signals back and forth and the first day this in neurons are all there Second day they're starting to form third day. It's a brain that they're all talking to each other stuff I got and they wire and they got the F-22 flying with the 20,000 rat brain neurons and then they change the wind and they got Everything you can put cross winds and and thunderstorms and stuff and the thing keeps sliding That's 20 21-year-old technology white-world technology. Can you imagine what they've got in this whole bio thing because I wrote the whole book on UFO skypods where I write 36 people that Mysteriously came to me and I'll set I've flown the craft and the first really well. Yeah, and the first the first woman to told me this I got 36 people say they've flown the craft and I got way more than that now. Can I interview any of them? - Sure. - Who, where are these people? - My assistance is one, Whitney Streiber is one. - Oh, flown inside the craft. - Floon the craft. - I thought you, but like-- - Fly the craft, like fly it with your mind. - Sure, but not like walked inside a hanger in a facility like Bobble's R did, get in and then fly it. - Not in a facility, they, like, I gotta, 'cause I would just, I would make a distinction between somebody who gets abducted or taken by the-- - I don't think the government has much stick, they can fly. I don't think they, that's the whole thing, that's why, but what happened when the Bobble's R case where he walks underneath the craft? - Well, that's one that I really kinda explain, whether that's electrostatic, or they get some other way, or magic trick, or something, that they want them to see this and they've got some other way. - So none of your 36 witnesses have, like, walked into a, you know, top secret facility, or whatever. - No, they all find themselves on a craft, or they're, their experiences. - Yeah. - I've got a 747 United Airlines pilot. I got a retired U.S. or Colonel with my assistant, with the streamer. - Wow. - A lot of people, and the first woman that came to me, I love to talk to the current. - Yeah, he was in the California Orange County Group, MeFund Group, he came after, they said, we're after the group and they said, "Hey, David, David, you missed Grand Sox, you were talking about flying a craft, tell him your story." And I said, "You flew the craft?" And he said, "Well, it seemed like a dream." I said, "Everything seems like a dream." - Okay. - And then he said, "Well, yeah, I said. " And then he said, "Tell me what you do, David." And he said, "What do you do?" He said, "I'm a pilot." I said, "Oh, my son's a pilot. My father's a pilot. What do you fly?" He said, "F-16s?" I said, "F-16s?" He said, "Yeah, I'm a retired U.S. "our first Colonel out of Iraq." He said, "I don't tell me your story." And he just tells his story, "I'm on a craft." He says, "I suddenly find myself on a craft." Everybody let's slip by. I'm standing on a craft. Just suddenly I'm on a craft. And somebody's behind me, and they're telling me what to do. And that becomes important. So he says, "Somebody's standing behind me "and telling me what to do." And they say, "Go ahead and do it." And he says, "I don't know what to do." And they said, "You know what to do, just do it." And he sees his panel. He goes, puts his hands on the panel. He said, "Son, they say fly at F-16." And he said, "It's so weird." And he's flying it, and he takes his hand off a little bit, 'cause he's ready for it to stall. He takes his hand off. Nothing happens. He's got his hands so he can put it back down again. Takes it off. He takes the other hand off. And he's flying it. And he's like, "Oh, they cow." And then the important thing was these people behind him. So then I start, later on, James Semivand tells a story. So he's telling the story. He's got the beings in the room. And he doesn't want to talk about it. He says, "No, I don't want to talk about it." You know, there are people investigating it. No, so if they never want to talk about it. And anyway, so then the interviewer, James Indole, he says, "So, was there any telepathy involved?" And they said, "That was the strangest part." He said, "I was standing there with my wife and these beings were there and there was somebody behind me." I could see what it was an alien or a gray or a tall white. I don't know what it was. But it had this guardian type thing about it. And I'm going, "Guardian type thing?" If you study Michael Newton, you know the guy, you go to the before the panel and after you die, you go in front of the panel and your spirit guy stands behind you on the left side. And this is a common story. The spirit guy stands on the left side. So I said to him, "James, I said, come back. Ask him what side it was on." And then I talked to Whitley. I said, "Hey, Whitley, I got this weird thing with these people flying the craft. That there's always somebody behind them who is telling them what to do." I said, "You're in the craft?" He said, "Yeah." He said, "Do you ever have anybody telling you what to do?" He said, "All the time." He said, "I told you when I was going to fly the craft," he said, "I was going to steal it." I said, "I got to steal this thing." And somebody started laughing behind him. And he said, "You got this confirmation of this weird, these weird things about somebody staying behind them. What's really going on here?" And, but a lot of these people, and the whole thing is, you put your hand on something like Chris Bessel. So Chris Bessel flew the craft. Then when I heard you flown the craft, I said, "You flew it?" It was just synchronizing all these people coming at the same time. He said, "Chris, you flew the craft?" He said, "Yeah." He said, "Stop right there. I'm going to phone you on Skype. I want you to start from the beginning. I want you to go to the end for five minutes." I said, "Okay, we're happy." Went to the craft, got on the, on the, on the, went inside and he said there was a, there was a, the beings were there. He draws actually where the beings were, where he was and there was this pedestal. And the weird thing was, I've got 36 people. Nobody touched the same thing. Every day, it's a different story. So he is, there was this pedestal standing in the middle and it had this sort of like a beehive on the top. And it was black. It was like a black plastic. And then he said, he put his hand on, they told him to put his hand on the, on this black thing. And he took his hand off and it looked like, like a CD wrong, you know, what the color was going through it. And he could see where his hand print was. And then he said, they had these, these hexagons in the wall. And these hexagons were spinning. And he said, they started to spin. They got bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And he said, suddenly the window opened and there was a Cape Fear River. And he said, I sat cross-legged on the floor, looking out the window, flying down the Cape Fear River where I was abducted and going, yow! Down the river. So he's flowing the craft. So he gets these weird stories and people where they would say this thing were this indigestible thing. What's really going on? So two of them, one is this Ron Johnson guy. They ask Ron Johnson, they say, Ron, where would you like to go? Said, I'd like to see the milk away from justice. And this is important. They say, Ron, it is within you. Go within yourself. When you can imagine it, then we'll go there. I've got a couple of witnesses. They said exactly the same thing. So he imagines this thing. And he said, boom, he said, one second, intense G-Force. And almost like papers, like going through a book, going through dimensions or whatever is going on. And he said, it's just intense for one second. And he looked up the window and there was milk away off in a distance. And other people describe instantly going from one place to another. The same thing where you're told what to think. And that's the question. You start wondering what's really going on. Like, what's going on with the role you're doing? If you give the guy a target, 453709, and you say, OK, and the guy says, OK, I'm at the target. He doesn't say, hang on, I'm flying there. I'll be there in five minutes. He's instantly at the target. And that's with the suffocation that Greer always uses. You see yourself as a puny form. When within you is unfolded the entire universe. And that's this question. What's really going on about the computerized world, simulation? Is there actually a world that it's all just waves? There's no physical world. There's no time and space. Fields are primary. Matter is second. If you even Google search it. Fields are primary. Matter is second. And you start relooking at reality. And I think that's what the phenomenon is doing. I call it the theory of wow, or the Jesus circus. So all they're doing is they're doing these weird, weird things that make you go, what the heck is going on? That crop circle. It makes hoax. But how did they do it? And you start wondering. And when you got on curiosity, or as Einstein said, a mystery is at the bottom of all scientific creation. It's mystery. It's get you on curiosity. But you wonder, what's going on? If you got it all figured out, you're not going to do any investigation. But everybody in the UFO field is doing the same thing. They're trying to figure out what's over there. And that's what they're trying to get you to do. They're trying to get you to expand your mind and just say, if this paranormal stuff is happening, something we got is wrong. And that's when I talk about skepticism. If you look at the cart, it really brings up the cart and skepticism. I say skepticism to me is the left brain interpreter. It's that little voice in your head. They just makes up garbage all the time. It just puts-- it's a balloon. Don't worry about it. And then it won't back off. And the cart said, when he talks about skepticism, he said, I may have to throw it everything I've ever learned. And that's what it's about. That's where Mark Twain, famous expression. It's not what you don't know to get you in trouble. It's what you know that just ain't so. And that's what's happening. We're realizing the world is not the way we think. And that's what the phenomena are trying to do. And that was the answer to my question. When it was flying away a second ago, what's it doing? It's just doing these weird things. People have a UFO saying, I say, what was it doing? I don't know, it's doing anything. I said, do you think it knew you saw it? Yeah, I think so. Well, I think you're right. I do think the phenomena engages in systematic and random brain scrambling that raises our consciousness in a way that it's always this game of whack-a-mole. It's always going to be high-strangeness and not match some prior thing. And I think you are doing this right now on this interview. So I'm so impressed by you. I think you might be an alien grant. This is really fun. And you are just filled with so many anecdotes and so much knowledge. And I love that you've explored so many things around government programs, nuts and bolts. And you're probably the tip of the spear a lot of that stuff. I mean, you literally were responsible for getting out the Wilson Davis memo. And then you come to this sort of conclusion that we are, that's more metaphysical, that we are in this sort of physical realm, but there are these sort of events that occur at the margins with this sort of more spiritual realm in some sort of, I don't know, it's a sort of simulation theory or something. And Jacques Vallet obviously talked about a control system. I used to think he was totally nuts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then he made that famous statement. When I see the, I'm in a movie theater and I see the screen, I look at that little hole in the wall and I say, boy, I'd like to get the key. And go into that room and see what's going on or that light's coming out of the whole thing of the cave where you've seen the images. And that's where I think they're trying to force us. They're trying to force us to question. Yeah, yeah. We understand. Or, you know, reality itself is like a mirror. I'm getting this from, taking this from Transurfing reality, which is one of my favorite books by a guy named Vadim Zeland who's this reclusive Russian physicist, quantum physicist, who might be a conglomerate of certain people or, yeah, it might be a patchwork of other people, but sort of, I don't know, fell off the map. And he says it's like, you're standing in front of a mirror on the mirror, you see this sort of, you know, it's not a perfect, there's somewhat of a lag. Obviously the photons have to bounce back and forth between your eyes. But you're seeing this sort of expression of kind of what's in your mind like projection of your subconscious Yeah, exactly. I think in reality, obviously you're seeing projection of your subconscious married to something that is a little more objective kind of like a a neutral Monist sort of viewpoint But then you you take a step back outside of the mirror and you look around and that's reality itself So it's like you have a headset on at all times Yeah, and you see that the reflective is is a big word now that I start to use Brandon fugle uses it when he goes to skin walker ranch. He's just clearly the phenomena is reflective Be careful what you think when you go on the on the on the ranch that if you like these three guys the arm guys The special forces guys that went on there and they were gonna play you know hunt a skin walker and the phenomenon I always call it the intelligence what I just called the intelligence whatever it is and it says you underplay hunt a skin walker We love to play that game and these guys are running from yeah What's inside of you will get excavated just like a psychedelic trip or something and and I think yeah He has another story of a hell's angels chief or whatever. Yeah, you know getting Zapped and I believe this down in a catatonic state just just, you know, paralyzed there Killer was most and often they give him this little zap, you know what deal the radio activities? That trip Travis Taylor Travis Taylor. That's interesting. I also went probably at my highest ego time in my life And I didn't have a great month afterwards, and I don't know how correlated that was it wasn't explicitly paranormal, but Grant this has been a pleasure man. I really really appreciate this. Hopefully I can get you out to Austin Yeah, we just because we I'd love to do this in the studio and fall what because I just really get the sense we kind of just crash the surface But watch my new stuff. I mean, I think I'm I've been led and I think I'm on the right especially I think I mentioned you I've got a like an experiment that's about to go one way or the other on the proof of the soul You should talk to Chris about that. Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's it's it's led me a lot of time Strange, but where I get you know a lot of downloads and I get a lot of direction and Tim Taylor says the same thing, you know And Gary Nolan says the same thing. I don't know. I don't know what's going on I don't know if there's a little else in my head, but I know how to make it work And it tells this whole story about how he puts strings together and he puts all things he thinks about it And then he puts on a piece of paper beside the bed and he said he'll do the next morning over the next couple days the answer is in my head Wow, so you see these people are starting to learn this this these things that it's not the physical world people think it is It's much more grand. It's much more magnificent and the more the deeper you look into The the microscopic stuff the more complex it gets the more you look out there the more complex it gets absolutely Or grand and that's what they're trying to tell us it's not this simple world that you think it is and and they do that through this Weird weird weird stuff, which everybody's down the rabbit hole. You can't get out you know what to do and so yeah I'm to me. It's a Super Bowl and I'm glad to have Played in the game. You're the same thing It's like most people live lives a quiet desperation and have no clue what's going on in you and I Not only know that there's a game we're inside the stadium and we're on the field Maybe the water boy or the quarterback or whatever, but we're playing the game which is super bowlable Well, you might be the quarterback. I'm I'm special teams, but Grant I know appreciate you man. Thank you for what you do You're the big voice that's that has to has to move it out So it doesn't really help if if I learn it and don't tell anybody so thanks for what you do. Oh, well, I pretty thank you man I'm just the I make videos Head to americanalchemymerch.com to grab official American Alchemy merch and support the show directly and while you're there The cowboy UFO T is a fan favorite. We always keep in stock along with the atomic age design Thank you all so much for following and supporting the show