I made $46K in 35 days (with OpenClaw)

Speaker 1 I grow usually like one to two KMR every day. I know it's the same so today it's like 66 K. Speaker 2 This is Nevo. He went from 20,000 to 66,000 MRR in 35 days. Thanks to Openclow and Larry. Speaker 1 He released this article with 200 followers and it got to 7 million views. When he did that, posties skyrocket to 700 trials. Speaker 2 Immediately in this episode Nevo share the 9 growth sacks he used to go from zero to 20,000 a month. How it tripled this revenue in 35 days and why your SAS needs to be agentic first to survive in 2026. Speaker 1 All the markets are flooded because everybody can vibe could everything. There's so much SAS going out everyday. You need to find your blue ocean. This is, I think, all disagentic stuff because there is not enough people there. Speaker 2 So Neville, you said funny thing about life, you don't know what's going to happen, but when something does, your first reaction can change your entire life. Do you believe in luck? Speaker 1 I believe that there can be like a lack point that you like really have luck, but you really have to like build up for this basically. So it was not like, you know, posties. My product in the last months grew like crazy, like really, really, really fast. And it's really what triggered this is like one article that did this, but before that one article, I managed to group post this to 20 KMRR in like 1 1/2 year. And it was already a product that is like very much developer oriented. It was open source. It has like 6,000,000 Docker downloads. So it already had like a lot of credibility. But it was like, you know, like a meteor slow SAS growing every month, maybe 1K, maybe nothing, maybe 3K. And then this article changed a lot. Even before this article I already started to put posters on Open Claw specifically so it can get like a lot of growth. So I think I don't think there is like somebody, you know, I didn't build anything. I just did something small and luck, somebody posted something. There was like a build up for this basically. So when you are lucky so many times, it's not luck anymore. Speaker 2 I love that because that's exactly where I wanted to go. I've been following your product for a while. I saw you like pushing it, I think since 2024. And you were like going everywhere already. You did like some YouTube collaboration. You did a lot of gross act. So I want to go back at the beginning, like how did posties actually start? Where did the ID come from and how did you build it? Speaker 1 So actually it was supposed to be a totally different product back in 2020. I 2022, I work for a company called Post called Novel and it was like an open source, social open source notification platform. I've never seen something like this because usually I I'm used to like open sources like databases, infrastructure tools and so on. But that was like a like a SAS product, same like any other SAS that is open source. And it was really interesting because I work for this company for like 2 years and just by being open source, I managed to bring so much growth to it. We did like 30,000 stars in 1 1/2 year. It was pretty much cool. And in the second year I started to consult open source companies on how to also do the same thing I did for novel. And it was very nichy. So it was like nobody was talking about this, nobody like because open source and marketing was not like a big thing. If you look like looked in Google how to do marketing for open source, would not find anything. It was like a really nichy consultancy. I charged like a very high ticket price between 3:00 to 4K per customer for two meetings per weeks basically. And it was really nice. And I was like, OK, wow, I I'm on to something. Let's create a SAS for this also. And it was supposed to be some kind of a SAS. It's called git room that's that's supposed to help you to create your open source lunch. Everything that I used to do all my playbook, how to post on ready, how to post on dev .2 and and and so on. But pretty quickly I understood like this is not going to work. It's like a too much of an issue market like it's good for consultancy, but you can build SAS on this. It's like the audience is too, too, too like very small. And I was like, what I'm going to like, kill it. Let's do something that's just like converted to a different product. It was really already type of like kind of a social media scheduling tool. It has some other features like you can see when is the GitHub trending going to change? It has some platforms like Devdo, twomedium.com and so on that are not really social. So I just talked to my designer and started to work on, on postings because I'm really good at open source and marketing open source. Everything I do is always open source. Like I, I, I developed this in open source and the main website. Usually I also make an open source and every other project inside is open source. So back in 2024, open source was still very, very strong for SAS. I launched it on Reddit and it got I think like 250K views for my lunch. And people are like going credit for this because it's like a market that exists for like 20 years, this social media scheduling and nobody created any open source, like really good open source until I learn something. And I understood this is like a good place to create more and more. Like I can just push the open source more and more and more. So this is how it all started basically. So I already have this platform and I pushed another Reddit post, another Reddit post. And and what is nice about this Reddit post is because you it's very hard usually to do in Reddit self promotion. Like if you try to do like proper self promotion, people would say like this is self promotion. It's it's not with a guidelines of ready, but just remove your post, filter it and so on. But here, when you're in open source and you publish on slash, are the self hosted people just waiting for to learn about your new release, about a new thing that they're going to launch? Like self promotion is totally valid. So I just like kept on every like one or two times a month each post like this on Reddit like 250K views on the on the open source side. And this is how it all started. Like push the open source as much as possible. Speaker 2 I wanted to ask you why open source, but I feel like you answered the question already. But I would ask you again, why open source? Speaker 1 There is a few things why I would go with open source and also it's not for everybody and you really need to think if you if if it's for you and what is the business model of the open source. So I build Meteor SAS, Meteor SAS is basically SAS company that is mostly point and click maybe some background jobs. It's something that everybody can create themselves. I didn't enter this market of such of social media scheduler as the first person to do this. There is maybe thousands of people that are doing this. So, and I see there's so many competitors also on, on X or LinkedIn to everyday I see a new social media scheduler. It's really easy to make. So if everybody can and, and today, back in 2024, vibe coding was not like crazy. So today in 2026, everybody can build at some kind of level what I built. So it doesn't matter already to be open source. Like take it, use it for your own or vibe code your own solution. It's not a problem. Like it's, it's good. Then also there is like the edge of fast feedback from from a lot of developers that using your platform, finding bugs, contribute code and so on. Always really, really good. You get really because the one thing that everybody wants when they launch something is to get like a surge of people coming to their product to test the to do different things. In reality it almost never working like this because you start a product if you don't have any audience. OK, Should I start with SCO? Maybe there is an influence or like you don't know. But when you just launch an open source, you get massive amount of developers coming to your Discord, trying to use your product, deployed with Docker and so on. So the feedback is also like super, super fast today. I don't know if it will work the same because open source got very AI sloppy. So all this channel of open source people already understand like open source is a good channel to launch in terms of feedback, marketing and so on. So, so many projects launching in open source every day with AI slop. So it's not as strong, still strong. And then you also need to understand like your business model. Mine is not the best business model for most open source companies because my open source is identical to my cloud. So it's like you want to use the cloud, use the cloud, you want to use the open source, use the open source. And the open source has like 6,000,000 Docker downs today. And yeah, most of the people go for the open source, I guess, which is fine for me. I think people would not use the actual cloud solution if there wasn't there was no one, no cloud option. They would just not do anything because this is like the type of people that are like self fosters and stuff like that. So go ahead, enjoy this. It's great. And then depends on your business model. Mine is identical. Some people have like a mini open source project and a different cloud project. And then it's more of like kind of like a lead magnet. The open source do one thing, the cloud do like a bigger thing so you can convert. Some people have super restrictive license for the open source, so it's not really open source, it's more like a self hosted. So it means that you can clone it, but you can't resell it, you can give other people to use it and so on. It really depends on the model, but I think open source is still a very good way to push your product. Speaker 2 How do you reward the contributors? Because for example, you make money with the project that is open source. So if tomorrow I go and help you build the product, how do I get a reward for that? Speaker 1 I think this is you and me. They're like business people. So it's always in our mind like why there is even contributors like what, what's in it for them? Like why would they want to contribute code at the product that is not their project. They might not make any money from this and so on. It's a, it's a question that hit me a lot of time because inherently I'm not an open source person. Like I use open source, I clone open source, I use NPM, I install different stuff. I use open source all the time. I wasn't really involved in any community because I couldn't see the what's in it for me. Like why would I need to do all this kind of stuff? But today, after like a long time and novel and post is understood, people just do it as a hobby. People are hardcore for open source. They like to contribute, call. It's part of their fun, be part of this community and build stuff. They are not expected to be rewarded basically. I know it's kind of weird, but that's that's the story behind it. I mean, it gives them some kind of fame. You see them as the contributors when you create a new, you know, a new version, they are being tagged, they might send it to their friend. Look, I contribute to this big open source project and so on. So this like fame, but there is usually no money involved in the process. Speaker 2 So you build this project, worked fine, then you added your gross because you say yourself that you are gross. I care and I want to go back to that because there is a lot of thing that works for you. As I say, I saw like your few collabs on YouTube back in a day you were first on product and a lot of influencer marketing Reddit. Instead of going in like all step by step, could you maybe like highlight the ones that will still work today? Speaker 1 Yeah, for sure. I think the thing about growth hacking usually is that it won't last forever. Like you find some loop, like some cracks in the loop, and then you can push into this. Over time, more and more people learn about this thing, so it's less effective. It's always like this same thing as I said, Reddit, open source. Now it's like less views. I had a few things that work really well. I think some of them still work. So product hunt, for example, I used to launch every three to six months. So every three to six months I would try to launch a product hunt and the, the product hunt says to me like listen, you have to wait like 8 months, you can't launch yet. So just do a request to launch it anyway and they always approve it. So it was good and, and product Hunt is not like it was in 20/20/21 where it was like really you could get like a lot of paying users from launching there today. I think Product Hunt barely will give you any customers. The main thing about product Hunt is like if you're on top of the list in product Hunt, many newsletter will use you as a resource so they can take you because you're in the first position and put you in during newsletter. So you know like there is when post is not making a lot of money, there is a very popular newsletter. It's called the Rundown AI and it's very expensive to list. Like they takes a lot of money just to put you inside a newsletter. But because I wasn't product hunt, they put me in the newsletter and I saw like 200 people immediately coming to my website, which was crazy. It was not from product on itself. So This is why I keep launching on Product hunt now how I win product Hunt so many times. This is really interesting. I understood already long time ago that people are very, let's say selfish like like they see like you post something on X or LinkedIn, they see that you are, you know you want help on product Hunt. If there is no benefit for them to do this, like to vote for you, they probably won't vote for you. It's very hard. I haven't seen a lot of people just like, you know, launching on different platform, getting like tons of up votes. And not only that, product Hunt even become became more aggressive because because of fake up votes that if you create a new user and product hunt to upvote, it's not even capturing this. Like you need to actually have like some karma, be active before write some comments and so on. So I understand the only way for me to actually win Product Hunt is by actually reaching out to people privately, asking them to help me with a lunch and also incentivize them in a way that it's OK with Product Hunt. So I would ask somebody if they can help me with the lunch. So this is the take I'm taking from you now. I have to give back. If not, I would do something and I would say in return, I can help you with anything you need. If you want, I can if you have some, if you need some customers that you want me to connect you inside of posties, let's do it. If you have, I can list you in the newsletter. I can give you a very big discount for my product and so on. Go and and and check it. Don't give me like a vote if you don't like the product. Basically whatever you decide and a lot of people comply with it like they want to do this. And The thing is like the more people that you can reach, the the more up votes that you can get. And I try to find some ways to reach a lot of people, not just like a few, because how many can you reach? If you, OK, what's up a few linked in a few, but you need like a lot of up votes. And this is where I do like, I call it like the growth Gray area of marketing. I have a few things. I run LinkedIn automations, so, you know, it's like sending it to the people that are on my LinkedIn list. I do Slack automation, which is pretty crazy. So you can join like a Slack group and then message the people inside the Slack group. Slack because it's like 4 personal it's it's more for like a work thing. It's not meant for communities. They have almost no restrictions for anything you want to do. You can send a message in Slack like every. Speaker 2 Service game. Speaker 1 So I send a lot of this, then I do X and I also my books, book a few influencers basically. So, yeah, it's, it's a lot of planning to do all this. I don't know if I do more product hand launches now that post is like more popular, but it definitely help and it it definitely work. And this is like, I think the main thing in order to get this like little growth points like if you, you have to think a little bit different because what everybody is doing, if you do what everybody is doing, most likely it will not work for you basically. Speaker 2 Also, every successful founder I know have one thing in common. They nailed distribution. They show up on Google, Reddit or social media and when you ask ChatGPT what's the best tool for X, they are also showing up. But most founders, they spend all day building features, fixing bugs or talking to customers. And sometimes they ship more features, but at the end of the day, the competitor with the worst product get all the customers. That's frustrating because we all know that your product deserves the spotlight more than them. And I know you probably don't have the time to write 30 blog post a month first on social media or reply on Reddit threads. You have to build a good product after all. So nothing gets done. And this competitor is still the one getting older customers. That's why we built this trip. You just have to create an account at your website and we take care of the distribution for you. Content, backlinks, Reddit, social media, We push your product everywhere and you can finally focus on building the best product while we get your customers on autopilot. You can click on the link in the description to get your free trial and the next 24, those who join will get 90% off on the first month. Now back to the episode. So you basically grew this product from zero to 20 K by yourself with all the contributors and with all the gross act that you did. What was like maybe the key lesson for you to actually build a product from scratch to 20 KA month? Speaker 1 People, if people want to build meatier SAS, they should start as soon as possible because I think the more time passes, it becomes harder and becomes much, much, much harder because like Meteor, which is very easy to create with a vibe coding the market being flooded like crazy flooded. And you need to really, really, really be good if you're planning to like every year that you wait is going to become much, much, much harder. I don't know if I started post this in 20252026, I could do the same. Maybe I don't know. But it's really hard. And the thing that I did in order to grow the product, and I think this is the the main thing that everybody should do when they do something like I did with Meteor SAS, is really try to stick on trends. When you can see there is like a trend happening, always check if you can play with this trend. And I did it all the time, even until 20K. So the first trend before everything else was NA 10. So 2025 anything was really booming with anything templates and so on. And I've seen like this is like a very good way for me to add post this inside if there is like an NATM template because somebody can create, for example, like a viral post on how to create a video 3 some video and schedule it to TikTok before open clock. And they can put me as the last node just to schedule it to social media. Then they can sell the entire template to a person. That person take the template and see, OK, in order to run this, I need this service, this service and this service. So they just have to because they already know what they're going to get. And also for me specifically, I knew that if people do automation and not do manual scheduling, like go and schedule stuff one after another, it's going to decrease my churn because everything is automated. So people don't need to alter all the time. Do something so they can just like, you know, I have some people running anything on automation. Every 15 minutes it's putting like a new post for post this. And I saw this trend and I was like, OK, it's a trend, what can I do? And then I was like, OK, where can I find the people that are doing NA-10 automations? And I understood like, OK, school.com is really strong with NA-10 groups. There's like tons of NA-10 groups. So I hired somebody from up for pretty cheap. Not something expensive to go into all this NA ten group and find me the e-mail of the founder and and the the name of the group and so on. So they did that and I got like a list of tons of emails and and founders. And I started like an NA-10 automation asking founders to add me to their template. And in return, I can again help them with the newsletter, give them a free post his account like a lifetime deal for posties, connect them and so on. And the months that they did that, on the first trend I jumped from 6K to 12K. It's very similar to what happened in Openclow. I found a trend and then I climb on this. So it was not as big as Openclow and posses was not as mature, but still it's like it worked. And then after a while, again, another trend, M CP/M CP was booming everywhere. Everybody talked about MCP. There was so many AI companies like Composio pushing MCP everywhere and stuff. I just go and created an MCP for posties and I did a product hunt launch on this MCP and I also started to push it on every possible library online they can put this MCP and again that increased another 3-4 KMR. So I always tried the trends and this is what I did until like 20 K. Of course there's like a few more things that helped me on the way. For example, I was on starter story that kicked me again with like 3K dollar MRR. I think I had a collaboration with a few more creators over time. Not something crazy on TikTok and so on. Pushed me here and there. But all this like trends. That's like the main main main thing I think. Speaker 2 I love that because it's John what yes, say on my last podcast, the founder of Chad Base say like basically you have to partner with some of the big entity in a community. And for you, like NA-10, MCP and Open Cloud was kind of a new community that was starting and you were just like putting your brand in the middle of that and that helps you grow each step. Speaker 1 Yeah, exactly like I had instead of being the hype. So I know some people like they they build like an open claw wrapper, for example, or like an MCP to create. I don't want to be the hype because I know that hype they come and go. They might change or for example, open claw still very popular, but I think it is a little bit not as it was at start because they're also like new players coming in like cloud Co work perplexity computers like more players coming in. So I don't do open close specific. I do agentic so it it can work with all the other ones basically. Speaker 2 I'm excited to talk about that in a few minutes, but first I just want to ask you a question. We talked about all your success with Gross Hack. How do you deal with failing and do you move fast? Like how do you actually iterate try new thing like what is your mindset about that? Speaker 1 It's very hard to declare a failure basically because what is what is a failure even? It's like I learned something and didn't get more users or more money. It didn't like If you look at the first since I I slanted post this until I got to 20 KMRR, except for the few first months that was really the product was Shitia just started out. There were always a growth like every month I grew in MRR, it was never going down. So yes, some of the moves that I've made really grew it a lot and some just like didn't do anything basically. So I didn't care. I just like kept doing everything that they see. I think the main thing for me, unlike other people is that I love marketing more than actually developing the product. So I'm all day trying to see like what is the next thing that that they can actually do to push this. And also I think when you are like a founder for such a long time, so I had previous startups before that they sold also. Your hunch is becoming like better in what you should do and what you should not do. You can appreciate that you can understand more what is the target audience here, what is their psychological behavior and so on. Like for example, I've never tried to do anything that will try to convert developers, let's say of the open source. I never created like a product to, to make open source people pay. Maybe if you asked me like 5-7 years ago, I would do it because I would think everybody can pay. But now I say, OK, there is this type of audience. This is the type of audience that will never pay me money. They just want to use the open source, OK, let's not touch them. Just give them more tools. Let's so you get like better hunches. I think in previous products I had a lot of bad hunches and a lot of bad stuff that I've done that didn't move the needle at all, basically. Speaker 2 I think it's important what you say as well that you start to like see like who are your customer for you Like now you have a with your specific ICP like I did customer for posters. You say that you're targeting tech founder or like people in the tech many you will not target a broken mortar business. How do you feel about that? Like because a lot of people struggle to make that big jump, you know, like to target only one person. What would you say to a person who hesitate? Speaker 1 I can't say I'm targeting only one person. I think I have a few like multiple audiences that are using posters and actually a lot of the audiences that I wanted at first for postings, I didn't use that like it's not who came in the end like I thought I wanted for postings to come like so a lot of marketing agencies will come to postings. Why? Because you know a single user they buy like the $29.00 per month package. But agencies they managed to other people their accounts. So they have to scale in the pricing plus because they're managing multiple accounts for multiple people, probably they need, they will have a lower churn because, you know, they, they, they have to use social media scheduling. It's not something that they like. Maybe it didn't happen in the end. Most of the people that came are like more tech people. And today I, I think it's like 90% of the people that come are really people that, you know, at least how to use the API open claw and so on. And I think it's, it's good because I there is, it's a market that exists for like 20 years. There's like really big competitors like Buffer that making $2,000,000 a month and you have a hoot suite. I think they're confronting the market. They're making me tons of millions every year. Really hard to compete with them. And they on the exact same audience. It's really nice if you can put yourself in like this blue ocean of people that they are not touching. Basically, Buffer still don't have like a good API even they're just now working on a new API. So if you can really put yourself in a different audience, that's right. It was not my plan at first. Speaker 2 Now, but I feel like it fits you because I saw your last video about open clown posties and the style of this video. I love it and that's like you target tech people, you know, like there is no normies that would watch this video and be like, oh, I understand what it means. So I think you know, when you find an audience or like your customers that fits you as well. It's more fun for you to do the marketing and everything right. Speaker 1 100 percent, 100%. I like to work with technical people because they also requires less support. You know they they know wait that you know there's like a ticket and they send me. I have a bug here here is the screenshot. I got 500 error. I I saw it in the network here here is a screenshot and you know it's the payload. You will not see this with like normal audiences. Speaker 2 No, let's talk about open cloud. You skyrocketed A post is from around 20 K to I think now like above 60 like 6367 KMR. Speaker 1 Today because I grew, I grow usually at like 1 to 2 KMR. Everyday I know it's the same. So today it's like 66 KMR. Speaker 2 Crazy first come great. So going I want to hear the story because I add Oliver Henry. If you didn't watch the podcast yet, you can watch it on my channel. Oliver Henry is the guy you met at the good time and together you basically like pushed post this to where it is. Can you just like bring us back to it happen? Speaker 1 Let me just before Oliver started, I already saw open close even before Oliver and I already have a skill for post this or I talked to Oliver and I already started to market it for open close. I had already this section on my website and so on. So it was already ready for let's say first we try Openflow, but it's all was already ready for agents. Then I saw this guy Oliver on X. So what I do, I don't like to use social media listening tool because they have like 3 channels. So I just you know, here and there I just go to X write, post these on the search and just like look for the latest post. So I saw this guy Oliver, something like 200 followers he had, he created the he has a very good storyteller created this open claw machine named Larry. And it was really cool. Like he was really writing how Larry helps him and also automating his TikTok in order to get like a lot of views. And I was like he said a few times he mentioned also posted like he's using posties. So I was like, oh, cool, this is cool that he's actually doing this with posties 200 followers. I was like, you know, I have like in general, not on the Oliver. I have a lot of UGC. Usually people like, you know, even in the open source just mention posties on social. So it was pretty cool. And he said that he's going to write an article about posties, not not about what story. He's going to write an article about open claw. He's bought Larry and how he grows his TikTok account. And I was in my mind, OK, Oliver has like 200 followers. He's going to write an article, probably will get to like 10K views. If he mentioned posties a few time, maybe I'll get like 1-2 three subscription that will be like pretty cool. Like I didn't I think it will be something so big. He wrote an article and the article posted one mentioned like 9 times. And I never talked to him by the way, until after this article. Never in my life. Like he's a nice guys, but nice guy, but I never ever talked to him. And then he released this article with 200 followers and he's got to 7 million views. It's, I don't know, like this is one of the biggest growth hacks that I discovered later. So this was really like the beginning of the agentic postees. When he did that, postees skyrocket to 700 trials immediately. Like usually I have like around almost 100 per month, but this was like 700 trials was insane. And then I started talking to him about this article and so on. So it started to grip bring a lot of revenue to postings. And then he did another article the week after that got like one and a half million views, but it was giving a lot more subscriptions to posties because he didn't like just like write an algorithm in the article what to do Step by step, he created a skill in this article. And this is a lot stronger because it's really reminds me of the NIT and template. A person go install the skill up. You need to use posties. OK, they go and they just like install posties. So it was like a lot more converting. It was crazy. And you know, I started to get like, I've never seen like this kind of growth. More and more people are using it and, and then I was like, OK, but what can I do next? Like I, I need more. OK, let's the let's, let's have like this whole whole thing and, and increase it more. It's really hard to tell exactly what kept on what kept going. So he did this 700 and and since then the trials went down like because it's like 700 trials per week. But now even after all his articles and he and his article is also still converting because it's like popular articles. I'm still getting like I have like a constant 400 trials per week, which is insane for me. What I did is that I understood that X are changing and they want people to read long content form and and and it's it's it didn't start only with articles like before Twitter was like a fuel character that didn't increase this. Then they have like long tweets and now they have articles and they know that people like the spend, they read articles. This is something that people they want people to stay more in the platform. So and then they had I think of like two or three months ago, this competition on X about articles, who gets the most amount of views, some crypto guy one, but with like 48,000,000 on on an article. So I understood there's something with article is little bit different. It's not, it's not like all the other stuff. So I also tried it and I wrote, I made an article about open close also also with 200 followers and it also got to half a million views since then. For me, like it's, it reminds me of Reddit just like a lot stronger. Because the problem with Reddit mostly is that I when I put a post on Reddit, it's targeted at at technical people. So technical people is really good for branding, people seeing no posties and so on. People maybe you know, use the open source, but it's not a like a converting channel, like it's not like a direct marketing channel that people see the post and go and buy posties really hard on ready to do something like this. But X is different. There's many buyers, many, many, many buyers. So this article also brought me also a lot of followers. I don't know if followers means that much anymore. Like I think I would prefer to stay on 200 because I saw that when I'm on 200, the art was like exploding a lot more than when I'm on 2000. And I also saw another team and I think this is the main shift X is doing. Usually what what will happen is that you have certain amount of followers, you post something, a percentage of them will see the post that you posted and then it will expand more and more and more depends how much viral it is. Now I feel what they are doing is that they're trying to do more of I don't go, I'm not going to show to your follower and 2nd degree and stuff. I'm going to show what you posted, the article that you posted to the audience that are looking for this kind of specific content. Why I think like that? Because after I read audio article and I read my article, I saw that every time I open my phone and I look at the main feed, I see a lot of open clue articles all the time, more and more open clue articles. It's like my entire field was open clue articles. So I said, OK, this is interesting. I also saw again people with 200 followers and a lot of views on their articles. And I was like, OK, I have a lot of money also now because I can invest back after all this growth. Let's contact people. Let's see if I can contact people to write articles for me, like make like influence or content post. It is what I need. I contacted so many people, people with like 200 followers or 300 followers and started to say like, would you write an article about positive? Yeah, for sure. I already using and many of them I would like. I was already using the tool. So great, let's do it. So a lot of people wrote an article also and I tried to scale it as much as I can and then I kind of stopped now to find new articles and still tries remaining on like 400. I still don't know why I need to do better tracking, but some people come to me likely and say listen like cloth code or codex like said use postes basically. So maybe it's also like some kind of like LLM starting to recommend the tools. So it was really crazy for me because I didn't change much. Like I didn't change the product to make it open cloud ready. I just did some different marketing, change the marketing a little bit and edit the CLI. That was the main thing I saw agent browser, which was like, wow, I really like this thing with that. You can play with playwright from the CLI. Let's make ACLI for posters because really it will use less context. It will have lex context raw that can iterate a lot faster, but that's it. And even that was like 2 hours with. Speaker 2 Can we just like deep dive into that because for someone was a SAS now even like whatever, like what did you do to actually get open claw friendly? Speaker 1 1st when when open claw when I make the first skill for open claw it was so easy. I have like my public docs. I just like took all this like main endpoints from the API reference, create one MD file, created the skill, that's it. It was open cloud friendly already. But then I was like, but what can I do to really stand out from the market? Not not only open cloud friendly, but in general like being any, any agentic tool friendly. And I understood it. It's the CLI because a few things. First of all, there, there was like this notion lately MCP is dead. People are talking about this. I don't know if it's really dead, but I totally understand where this frustration coming from because I have also MCP for post is it's slow. It has a very huge like it's sending so much context every time it's like a huge context window. It's sometime disconnect and so on. I really like, I've seen like compared to this, like when you write just like a skill, a skill, it's much faster. And I was like, OK, but why? When I saw this agent browser, they made ACLI, they could just like write like playwright commands and like very big dog. They're still like because it's saving so much context when you have ACLI instead of writing like a full HTTP request in a very big Jason payload, you can have like one line like posties create post minus M is the message minus I is the ID and that's it super, super small. And then the other M can also the the actual LM can also really iterate fast. Even if it's failing, it will try some CLI doesn't work, try another CLI. It's so easy compared to imagine if it's failing, it will again need to write all this huge Jason payload and again and again and. Every time when you send a message to JGPT or something, you send all the context that you have from the previous request. So it's becoming like really big. And yeah, if you just make it like with the CLI, it works much, much, much faster. And I think I was the one of the first people to actually understand that. So I was the first one we introduced like CLI for, for open for for just like using a genetic post. Speaker 2 So basically you just need skill and CLI and API. Speaker 1 Yeah, and all, all you need to do for me it was easy. If you have a docs already created for you, I just like do clot code, you know, run dangerously. Here is the here is the docs. Just make a CLI for me like like this basically. Speaker 2 And can you maybe explain on the user side what is like the the point like because I have open cloud, I installed the skill, I take subscription to post this just to get the IPI. And then why do I do I just sat with open cloud and I just say like, yeah, can you post content from this source? Like how does it work exactly? Speaker 1 So I think this is actually why open Cloud is so is so good because you can hook it to anything you want. So you can really yourself go and say do a research yourself, go do something yourself. But you can also hook it to many services to actually get the content or you can get the template that creates the content for you. Like Oliver created Larry, his skill. The skill is not like how to use post. This is the skill goes and 1st generate some pictures with open AI and do some market research generates some pictures with open AI and put the subtitles on top. And then just like schedule this to post this, but post this is just like for the scheduling just to edit to the app India, you can have before that anything you want. So you can do it yourself, like write what you want. I want to create a post for posties about the importance of social media. OK, no problem. We just do it for you. Run the CLI command for you in the background and schedule this for you. Or you can use other services. And I've seen so many people now create. Maybe this is also part of the gross for posties. So for example, I've seen this guy, I think his company called Vangula something like this and he created a clipping service. So you can give a YouTube video, it will split it to many good parts and then just like send it to post these to schedule those clips. I've seen another company actually they are sponsors of posties, the open source it's called Verlo something like this and they know how to fuck to find trending content on social media and the content of this of this thing. So you can ask find me from this service trending post about fitness. OK, we'll give you and then OK, now like create post inside of post season schedule this. Speaker 2 And so post it is basically a piece of the puzzle of workflow, exactly like it was on NA-10, but now it's like open cloud. So basically now POST it doesn't even need a landing page anymore or a dashboard if you think about it. And if I pay once for the API, then I don't need your dashboard anymore. I don't even need an interface. Speaker 1 Like in reality it's true, but in real life you might want to to visit the dashboard. So you will not use the dashboard to create stuff, but you might want to look at your calendar. So for example, you know, like you said to open Claw, go around the week and schedule different posts for me. But you know how it's going to look, what hours and so on. It's always easier to understand like visually when you can actually see this. So I think this is, people are still checking all the time in the calendar. This is different stuff. I don't know I I have a feeling there is going to be a next iteration of Open Claw and not I don't know if specifically will come from open cloud or cloud Co work and stuff that the the chat like telecom whatever will also deliver you with UI basically. So you get AUI inside your your app basically. Maybe the calendar will already be there or something like that. Then you close the loop. You don't need to go to the post this app anymore. Speaker 2 Interesting. I think you collaborate with Oliver to actually, you know, iterate and make the app like better for the skill, right? Like to actually make it good for open car? Or did you just like talk to him and didn't collaborate at all? Speaker 1 I think he asked me only for one thing that I didn't have in processes to get the analytics, so he asked me for some endpoints, but he created the whole thing himself. Basically, he just wanted to because the nice thing about the skill it's supposed to learn from previous posts. So it will like post for you and then after a while, check the views and understand, ah, this post was better than this post. Let's go into this format and then iterate and so on and keep on posting the right format. But it's except for that, I think he's pretty technical person. He's also using cloud code. He managed to figure it out himself. I, I don't honestly, I don't even know if people are doing stuff with posters today without like using cloud code or something. So, you know, it's really helps with this barrier, you know, of being technical with a lot of this stuff. Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, 100%. I mean like I'm this kind of person, you know, I'm not a dev. I have some technical background because I build some WordPress and build some SAS like myself, but I'm not a dev. But then now like with open crowd and I see it, me or my girlfriend or people around me, we just have access to this kind of thing. So you don't even need that anymore. Speaker 1 It's good and bad, You know, It's good because everybody can do it. It's bad because everybody can do it. So it's good. Yeah, you can do it. But then it's like every when everybody can do everything, then nobody's making money. Basically. It's much harder to make money. I'm really conflicted about this era. You know, on the one hand, I am programming much faster. I don't remember the last time I wrote code, but on the other hand everybody is doing this. Speaker 2 Yeah, I think it's an arbitrage time. We have to take money as fast as possible before it totally change and switch to the new era and we don't really know what it is yet. It's interesting, but that's so scary. I'll. Speaker 1 Tell you what I think about this new era, at least that's coming now for me to your SAS, because we are like Indie hackers. Let's say we are all indie hackers and we don't build like the the next hosting infrastructure or we don't build a payment provider. We're building like simple stuff with point and click and and what is going to happen in this area is that people always will think, should I use this or should I vibe code this? And where is like like the the point where it's actually matters if I create postings and I have so many people that are paying $29.00 per month vibe coding the whole thing, taking the server for yourself, approving all the providers, OK, you might save $10 per month. OK, like you, you won this meal. This month you have another extra meal that you can eat. Everything great. Really not worth vibe coding everything. But what if you are an enterprise company and then you have tons of employee and your monthly billing is 10s of thousands of dollars because you have a lot of employees inside here, you will start to think twice. Can a vibe code this solution like what's going? And I think this is like a prediction I seen like in an article that was very viral on Hacker News that people are starting to negotiate more on deals in the future, even if they use like Salesforce or whatever, because they are thinking like maybe we should just like vibe code something ourselves and we are going to enter this market. And I'm really happy that I'm not like enterprise first. It's really, I think Enterprise first with Meteor SAS is going to be very hard in the future. Speaker 2 It makes sense because like the founder of NVIDIA just shared this new Agas era like Agentic as a service and they built Namoclow which is a Safeway to use open cloud for enterprise. So basically like they will be enterprise and customer and they will not even need the software in the middle. Because as you say, company like Upspot, they are taking so much money to enterprise every single month. Like that's something that they have to pay and now they can vibe card or like build it themself and tailor it to their own company. They will probably lose a lot of money. Speaker 1 And, and I think like, you know, HubSpot, monday.com, all these companies, they really have a lot of feature like you won't be able to vibe code everything. They it's for sure. It's like when you vibe code, they vibe code. So they also have developers and they also improve the product every time you improve the product. But maybe companies don't need everything that they have. They can have a few stuff that they really need. And so I think this is like this Meteor SAS is going to be hard. And I think a lot of these companies like Hapspot and stuff, their main core power is that they understand this. Also, I think they will do different agentic stuff in the future. And also HubSpot is like buying a lot of companies. So they're like trying different angles. I think for the thing that they are doing, agentic and so on, there's going to be a problem here for all those companies but that. Speaker 2 Distribution. You said more money, more problems, and when the money is really fast, you get so many problems. How did you manage viability and how did you actually? Yeah. Speaker 1 I'm telling you honestly, I'm really all my life I worked in some companies and in each company I was like an executioner. So what is an executioner's do in terms of marketing, growth hacking? They do a lot of this stuff themselves. They take small freelancers to do different small stuff and so on. And you know, and they get results for this, but they usually don't like scale a very big team. And you know, I, I like the fact that I can be an indie hackers that do everything by himself. And I honestly think that you can still do a lot of stuff by yourself. If you have the time to create tools for all the team that that you have problems in, for example, customer support and so on, you really can save and not hire a lot. But it is becoming harder when you grow very fast. So you know, when I grow 20 Ki grew to 20K, it was slow growth. I would get 4-5 tickets for support per week maybe. And they're like not all of them together. So I would just like go to the ticket, check what is the problem and solve it. But when you're really becoming super viral, no, it's, it's in a whole different magnitude of the amount of support tickets that you have. It's like like 1020 per day. It's, it's, it's insane. And if you missed one day because you had to do some stuff, then you have also the previous one from the previous day. And it's really, I don't know how to explain this, but I, I understood that being overwhelmed is the worst thing for a founder. Like when I'm overwhelmed, I just can't operate. So for example, if I open my e-mail and there's like 100 emails that I didn't read that I need to do something, I'm like, OK, I will not do it now. Same with support and then 40 tickets, OK, maybe I have to find a way, you know, to optimize this. And this is really something really hard with fast grow. So I want to hire like a customer support engineer. The problem is I don't know how I feel like it's really, really hard to do hiring today. So you know, I don't I'm not a funded company. I'm I can't pay the salaries of, you know, like like a known like a funded company. I will not pay between 10 to 20 K per months to somebody. I wish well, like when I grow more, I would definitely do this. So I'm usually with like 3 to 5K per months my budget right now to hire. And it's also fully remote. So everybody's basically applying, especially from like, you know, a more developed countries and how like everybody use cloud code. You're trying to put a filter. I don't know, like it's really hard to understand if it's worth going to an interview with this kind of person because you know, they just like, what are you going to ask? What are you going to do? I think it's really hard to to do the hiring. So because I grew so fast, you didn't even have to hire so fast, like super stressful, have to find a solution very fast. So it can be everywhere. It could be emails, it can be people that want like a refund. You have to create like new processes that you usually did it yourself. Speaker 2 Can't you automate that? Speaker 1 You can. You can build automation. I don't want to create an open claw automation though, even though it's like sexy and stuff. I think it's it will be too expensive to start to run open call and everything. I prefer something more automated. So for example, this is like one of the automation that they want to do now I want for example, there is like a new support ticket coming in. So 99% of the support ticket like OK, 60 to 70% of the support ticket that comes in. I think it's mostly actually bugs basically. So if it was just like to held like you need to do like this perfect. So I want like a new ticket come in. I use some agentic thing like maybe like cloud SDK or codecs to scan the code base and to give an answer. Then if there is no answer like it is like a bug, it opens a PR on GitHub and then maybe cloud code also like process this PR on GitHub. If not, we just give the answer what we need to fix and so on. So yeah, you can do this, just need to develop it. You need to find time. I'm doing other stuff also. I'm working now on the post this mobile app. Yeah, it's just to know where to put your target and what to. Speaker 2 Do I think in this era we need a 48 hours day? I can't deal with 24 hours anymore. It's not enough. Speaker 1 And also, I think it's like a lot of focus, you know, like I have a lot of free time during the day. I'm playing with my daughter. I do a lot of different things, but I don't have a lot of free mind shift context that I can do so fast. Like I can't like start a new SAS some suddenly right now I can't like my money's bothered with OK, there is the mobile I need to do the hiring and the support last. Let's see what I can do for marketing really hard. Like you have like all these mind shifts. I think this is the thing that usually make founder burnout. They do too many things at the same time. Speaker 2 And on top of that, you just started to create contents yourself. You say you did Articare and you also started TikTok. How do you deal with that and do you have already reserved from that? Speaker 1 No I I did a few actually I did even before open close. I did a few videos with TikTok. No I I don't have time for this honestly. I did like 6 videos each one of the video got like 200 views on TikTok and one one video got 30K views. So already back in the day I understood there is this something also with TikTok here. But I I, I just it's impossible. There is too much stuff to do and I don't want to because he nobody is like posties and Oliver skill. It's really nice that you can schedule like you can automate stuff and post stuff to TikTok. But if you actually listen to Oliver, what he said, it's not like he's first video that he posted, it became viral. He had to iterate with his skill and every time fine, OK, this working, this not working. It takes time. It's not like that, basically. Speaker 2 How do you reiterate your tasks? Speaker 1 I'm a very messy person. I don't have huge. I wish I could. I think I haven't developed something super significant in posties for a very long time because I in my state of mind, it's something that I learned from my previous startup. Every time you create something new, this something new gives you bugs and can cause like a very high churn. So what you want to do is all the time fix and perfect what you currently have before you're moving to like new features. The worst thing is that you can have like a new feature in the dashboard that breaks and churning customer because of this. So I'm I'm focusing most of the time every day to fix those bugs. And there is like you know, post it is the biggest social media scheduling tool in terms of channels. There's like 30 channels. There is so many bugs inside. Like I try to capture all of them. I have some mechanism to catch errors and stuff, but it's very hard. Also other companies, they sometimes change their API's and so on. So I'm really focusing on fixing bugs. It's my main priority for everyday with everything that they do. And then the second one is marketing. I invest most of the time of my day to understand to to, you know, understand what is the next thing to do. I think just like doom scrolling X all day helps you to understand all the things that are coming and how you should change whatever you do and so on. What is the next big thing? You know, they already introduced Claude Dispatch just like a day or two. And I already have a person writing an article about this. Like it's really important, like to be in the peak of all this kind of stuff. And then I'm trying right now I'm in this position that I have a lot of money and I'm trying to understand how I can use this money. It's not so easy. So I talk for example, with Nico, maybe you know him, he's like the master of ads. So he's building now. He's building now ACLI for Facebook. So we are working closely because I want also to start to run ads for posties. So just also marketing. But I don't want to use the the Facebook UI. I want to do it with open close. Not because I'm like oh open close, just because it's so buggy and slow to use the Facebook ads. Platform like I want to do fast, I want to focus on creative, push it and do it and try to scale our marketing. So I think my main priority is now what I'm trying to do everyday is bugs, find customer support. Because the customer support is so bad right now. Everybody will tell you it's like the worst. Find a way to improve the customer support or hire somebody or both. Focus more on marketing and the next thing and scale the marketing. I've never scaled marketing that much. Like I have really a lot of budget. Now I'm trying to see what will give me the most amount of like I put the dollar and get 3. I don't want to do the opposite. Put 5. Speaker 2 And you said that we are entering the personal chat assistant era and it's going to grow a lot. Can you just explain me why and what it is? Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, I'm, I'm just saying this based on data, not not because I'm like trying to, you know, push post this when when open cloud started for me, it was very much like cloud code. I didn't understand like what's so special about open cloud? It's basically can be a cloud code that is connected. Like cloud can also connect to all your services. Plus they added this this options to have Chrome jobs so you can repeat task, which is the cloud Co work that they made later. So for me it was a trend didn't really understand what you can do with it and so on. Like it was like a nice, I thought like it will like so many people said this is a trend is going to die. It didn't die. It kept on. Like if you go to the X trending feed you all the time see on the side open clue new version or people talking about open clot is always in the trending section. Something about open clock so and now NVIDIA also understood this did this Nemo claw we we can see some very big shift into this whole agentic stuff with personal chats and it's it's not it's not ending. They're keeping pushing more and more. So I I think this is going there and it's not going to be a trend. It's not specifically will be a chat maybe, but it will be like a platform with agentic stuff that connected to all the other platforms. It it's going to be something like this and over time it will also improve it as we said, like it will not be only text. It will generate UI for you back and so on the day. The data of post is how much it grows everyday. Keep on getting trials like non-stop and and and and the amount of usage I see with article and people. I don't think this thing is going to die anytime soon. I think this is going to be more into this direction. We'll see. We, we, we can't know. Speaker 2 And the last question for you, who should actually go all in into Argentic as a service? Speaker 1 Everybody that is building meteor sauce. So I think in every, every time you build a new sauce, a lot of people they build new SAS because they have like some really good idea. But it's many times it's really good to build a SAS when you know that you also going to have very good execution. Basically, not just an idea like you can actually execute this idea. You say, OK, if I do this, maybe I write the X article, do this TikTok video or something, OK, I can get people paying and so on. So all the markets are flooded because everybody can vibe code everything. So everything is like, it's been like there's so much SAS going up out everyday. You need to find your blue ocean. You need to find something that other people are not doing. This is I think all disagentic stuff because when you go there, there is not enough people there. Actually, I'm not just saying this, I have, I don't know if you've seen, I have another company that I'm working with. They have a technical Co founder there. It's called Agent Media to generate UGC. We do it with a special focus for the CLI to be agentic only agentic. Like you hook it with open claw plus you put it with posties so it will generate the UGC and schedule this posties. There's tons of other Ugcs generators same as I have in posties. But I'm trying to go into this blue ocean. So if not every startup can like some startup, I think they're forcing themselves to be agentic where there is I don't really understand the use case. So for example, and maybe I'm totally wrong, like cal.com hook themselves into open core right now. They did a product and so on. But what is I'm not sure I kind of understand the use case behind this. Like what do you use the open with? Maybe better marketing education will say. So I think really you need to find like if you have a really used a good use case and use really good use cases is usually are like I think active things that can happen. It can be generate an article with SEO. So super agentic just to generate like SEO content. Actually, I did something interesting with SEO that I think you can't do this without open clock is that I installed agent browser and I gave an agent browser ability to access my dashboarding posties. So it's generate screenshot of the dashboard with the article that is generating with the SEO hooked up also to the H ref and Semrush to understand what to build and Google console. So really SEO can be really good. Also all these social media generating things, the people also, you know, there's so many companies that are not like a social media scheduler scheduling tool, but just like a like a real far dot farm and stuff that is just like creating the TikTok video for you and scheduling for you specifically. All those like are going to work amazingly. Marketing specifically is going to work amazingly with all these things. And I think also like all these CRM CMSS great with open claw to edit information fast. You know, sometime they use Notion, I used it with my the previous company I work with novel and you know so many pages of Notion, where are you going to find whatever what you want and so on. I know that if you use Opencloth it will find exactly where to add the content or where to write or where to read the content. So all these CMSS and so on, code builders also like if somebody wrote like another base 44 something also can work amazingly. I think if you use with Openco, if it can hook up to other services, in general, everything that can be hooked up with an external service will work really, really great. I think because you can get like more information from workplaces to build your stuff. You should when you build a new, if somebody's watching this and they they don't have a SAS yet, I suggest see this trend and then build a SAS that can use this trend not to be there. Like I would not suggest building another open claw wrapper to deploy open claw dockers and stuff like that, but to use the trend basically as a skill inside it can work good. Speaker 2 Well, Navel, that was amazing. Thank you for your time and I'm sure we'll see you again in the podcast.