‘I’m not budging’ – Staking Your Trust in God No Matter What

Season 2 Episode 7. Carey Shales with Charlotte Nore. I'm not budging, staking your trust in God no matter what. And I think I have to get to a point where I have to go. It's okay if I don't get what I hope for. It's okay if my husband never comes back to the Lord. It's okay if I never have children. I would obviously always love that. But it's okay because ultimately I can trust God. And I think that is the biggest, like, stake in the ground is, like, if I can really firmly place my feet of trust upon him, I can get through anything. Well, hello and welcome back to Carey Shales. I'm Catherine Grimes, I'm your host and it's always amazing to have you listening in and sharing with us in our beautiful stories of faith of women all across the world. I want to say a massive, happy new year to you, the beginning of 2026. And I pray that it is a year full of God's blessings for you and that even in the most painful of circumstances, you really richly experience his presence and his guidance. Now, you may have noticed a little bit of a difference in the sound here today. It's our first remote recording for Carey Shales by Azum and it's one of several new things that we will be doing this year with Carey Shales. So keep your ears tuned and your eyes out for new developments with how things take place. But here today in the studio, I have a beautiful lady called Charlotte Nol who I recently got to know. Charlotte is mission strategist at Christian Vision in the UK. Charlotte's passionate about using technology to help the church reach beyond physical walls and connect with people wherever they are. She believes innovation is key to creating spaces where lives big questions can be explored. Faith can be shared in relevant ways and relationships with God and others can be deepened. She's married to Gavin and she's a proud mum to two miracle children. Beyond her work at CV, she runs a charity that supports bereaved parents through the loss of their child. Bringing hope and comfort to those who are navigating unimaginable grief. So Charlotte, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. It's great to be here with you, Katherine. Thank you for inviting me. Oh, my pleasure. My pleasure. And Charlotte, we've had a bit of a glimpse from your bio there about some aspects of your life story. But let's dig straight in and let's talk about your very early years. Can you give us a bit of a glimpse first of your setup as a child growing up in your family and how faith came into that? Yeah, so I wasn't brought up in a Christian home, explicit Christian home, should I say, really. My parents, I think, always had like an openness to they're being a garden faith. Like I think they always talked about they're being a garden or heaven and the standard things in society. And so it wasn't something that I completely had my head shut off to. But equally we weren't going to church or anything. We'd probably go at Christmas for a Christingle service or something like that. But really for me, I went to a primary school that was, we had a lot of Christian teachers there who were very open with their faith. So it was quite a small, I wouldn't say quite villigy, but also just a little bit bigger than a village, almost. And so most of the teachers there were people that went to the local church. And so we would sing, you know, the hymnal book, you know, on it in the morning, it's a level, those different songs. We just have two different people every week coming and do Christian assemblies and teachers Bible stories. So it was a very explicit Christian church school kind of, but it wasn't a church school, if that makes sense. But we did do a very explicit religious, you know, curriculum as we were going through school. So that kind of probably opened me up to, you know, all the basics of the Christian faith. And then what really happened for me was then when it became a teenager, the attached to the school was a youth club. And the youth club was also run by Christians from the local church. And it was the place everyone hung out. So it was, you know, it was almost a right of passage that the cool kids went to youth club a couple of nights a week and that's where you hung out as well as the street corners and getting up to no good. You're the night. Love that, right? Yeah. So we get up to good on, no good on some nights, but then go to youth club on the other nights and that's where we probably keep dry and hang out off. That's not on the streets and stuff. But there was a real thing in a sense of just something different about these youth leaders when they'd work with us, that they had patients for us. That even when we were naughty, they'd kind of draw us in and sit us down and talk to us. And I remember Kay, who was one of the main leaders there. And she was just the loveliest, like almost second mom to lots of us where she'd sit us down and just really nurtured us and be like, "Right, you shouldn't really be doing that. You shouldn't be dating that boy, you know, she'd really like look out for us." They'd put on quite often different events, like weekends away. And so we had a girls weekend away. But through that, they'd always bubble up kind of Christian stuff like they pray for us or, you know, so just enough to kind of intrigue, but not as so in your face. And then I think that was kind of where I just became really open to God and that journey. And I also remember as well that I loved playing football and I was quite good at football. And they got a form of pro footballer in. And the caveat was, Derek will do training with you. Every Tuesday night for an hour, but you have to sit for 15 minutes after and Derek will share the gospel with you. So we don't be, "Yeah, whatever, yeah, that's fine." And we're heckling. But that, but we'd all be up for it, 'cause we like form a pro footballer, you know. And then we'd sit and listen to somebody talk. And I think again, those sorts of things, they're all just, you know, it's just the fingertips of God through my life of just kind of exposing me to the gospel. And just real subtle ways of just talking to me about faith. And, you know, there'd be bits where they'd be like, "We've been praying for you or how's your family? We've been thinking of them. We'd love you to go at them to church." So it was never in your face. It was always just a real gentle exposure to Christianity and to Jesus. And I think that's what kind of started to draw me to Jesus, really. - Yeah, I mean, that's amazing. I love, first of all, the pairing of faith and football, you know, the literature there is just fabulous, isn't it? It sounds like, as you say, you just, yeah, you could see Jesus' fingertips all over the different parts of your childhood. And I love that. So Charlotte, can you tell us then how that crystallised to actually bring you to a point where you said, "Generate, yeah, faith is real. This isn't just something I'm being told and talked about, that actually it's authentic and real for me, because you discovered who Jesus was for yourself. Can you tell us about that?" - Yeah, so what they did then was they actually partnered with an organisation in America called Pure For God. And Pure For God each year would come to the UK with a bunch of teenagers, Christian teenagers, and almost do like an outreach. So they come to our youth club for like two weeks in the summer holidays, and they just put on loads of events for an activities, not just for us as the teenagers, but for like primary school age and families and stuff. And like, we just drew alongside them, naturally a big group of us, like wherever they were going. We were like, we wanna come, you know, they went down to, so we're in the Soli Hall, and they'd go down to Stratford upon A, and to do like a skate park outreach. And we'd be like, "Oh, can you put us in the bus on?" We wanna come and be a part of it. And we'd be adding out gospel tracks, not even knowing like what we were doing just because we were just joining with them, because we loved them, and we'd just built relationships with them, and then we'd go out for curries with them in the evening, all that sort of stuff. And so it was great because we were just getting stuck in, and then right at the end of their two weeks with us, they put on a big event for everybody that they'd engage with the families and all that stuff. And I remember we all went to this like church outreach event. Now, I was quite a rebellious teenager, and behind the scenes I was getting up to no good, but for this couple of weeks I was really getting into it, and I went with my group of friends, and my brother and his group of friends went as well. And I'd got my curfew. My curfew was, I think it was like nine o'clock or something at that point, 'cause I'd probably been up to no good. But all my friends were allowed to stay until 10, and I remember going to this evening like service at our local church and thinking, "I've gotta go home." And so I went home halfway through, and really thinking, "I really love this." Like they're really happy clapping, you know, a really light Jesus and all this stuff. And so I went home, and the next morning my brother wakes up and goes, "You wanna see what happened? "We all went at the front. "We said we wanna become Christians." And I was just like, "I missed it." Like, "What did I miss?" And so, and then I saw all my friends, and they were all like, "We gave our lives to Jesus, "yes, they would have known it." And I was just like, "Oh, I've missed out on this." And then they did do one final day where they took, that they were supposed to do in a way day with their team before they went to the next place, they were going down to Cornwall or somewhere. And what they did there was, they went to like this place called Red Hill Christian Center, which is almost like a Christian retreat. And at that retreat, they just had like a time of worship and they went up on the hill, and there's this like really serene hill, almost in the middle of nowhere with a cross on it. And I remember sitting at the foot of this cross and they're all just worshipping and weeping and praying for one another. And I remember just having this sense of like, this feels really real like it really feels like, all my friends have gone, it felt more than just a hype. It did, but it still didn't feel like, "Yeah, this is for me." And then what I. - Because it didn't reject with you, sorry Charlotte, just briefly, like, I just want to ask you, you're there at the foot of that cross and that hill. And as you say, all the behaviors around you, they must have seemed quite strange. Did you see that as strange? (laughing) - Yeah. - Because when you say, "That weeping and that, we're supposed to be picking that." You know, it's not something the average person does, right? Yeah, I think it I think though because I'd built such a relationship with them. It felt normal if that meant okay. Yeah, I think if it was my first experience, but because I'd been watching stuff through like the the people at the youth club over the years and stuff. So I think I felt it was just this overwhelming sense of I don't care anyway because I'm it was probably the Holy Spirit obviously working in my life. But and so it didn't creep me out. It just felt like wow Jesus cares like and then and these people are normal like they've got problems as well you know they're crying over family that they're missing or sickness and so it makes you feel like oh wow like God really can look after me and my needs. And so yeah I think sometimes we worry about like a lot of people are going to get freaked out by seeing what they see at church sometimes but actually I think we just got trusted the Holy Spirit if he's softening someone's heart so yeah yeah you are absolutely right and I'm forgive me that's why it interrupted you because I just wanted to bring that out saying like sometimes in the church behaviors can seem quite strange I think to people who have never been exposed to that but as you say it's the Holy Spirit who just reveals himself doesn't he and that sense of no no that there is no norm but this is this is who Jesus is so yeah so do tell us more about your story then so there you are Charlotte and you're probably at a critical point aren't you what happens next. Yeah so all my friends then start going to church including my brother so my brother was like okay well you're gonna start coming to church we and my parents are just like who gets up on like where did you kids come from like you've gone from being out to late at night drinking and doing all sorts of stuff getting up to all sorts of trouble at the local parks and stuff to now like you're getting up early on a Sunday morning to get to church together I think my parents thought we'd like lost the block and so yeah so we started going to church and my brother was really getting into it like they were like really mentoring him and he was developing and stuff and I was just still kind of like I like this I feel like there's a Jesus and stuff and it probably took another 14 15 months after that point and that they came back again the following year the Americans did and it was probably about two or three months after that that I'd gone to church and I remember just getting this picture the one Sunday morning and I was in the service and just this picture came up in my mind of me walking out the building and getting run over and I heard this voice really loud in my ear and everyone was singing around me and you kind of like what's going on here and it just said what's gonna happen to if you do get run over today where are you gonna go and I just broke like in them and I remember running up to Kay the lady I'd mentioned from the youth cub and going okay what happens to me if I die right now if I don't know Jesus what's gonna happen to me oh it makes me feel like now even thinking of it and I remember her just saying right this is it now this is where you need to make a choice and so yeah and then I remember all the leaders including my brother sitting around me and they prayed for me and so yeah that was the beginning of my journey I remember skipping all the way home going mum and dad I've just found Jesus and I remember my dad being like not a lot of this kind of like and he was probably deeply intrigued and believe but that's just going to how he came across this. Yes this is how the transformation of his children overnight as well obviously that a little bit longer for you but and did subsequently Charlotte seeing your behaviors change so dramatically did your parents themselves come to know God as well? Yes yeah they did so yeah my younger brother so over time yeah over the next couple of years actually it was really interesting journey with mum and dad my brother then decided to come a youth pastor and he flew out to the states to this group to train for a year and I always remember thinking oh my goodness I'm a new baby Christian my parents still don't know Jesus my brothers leave him and I was kind of leaning into him because he was getting discipleed and mentored and I was kind I was going through like alpha course and stuff but he I really relied on him and I remember it was at his leaving service we'd gone to church and he was his commissioning to go off and I said oh I'm just going to go and help in the kids church because you know mum and dad are here visiting they come to visit for the service but they'd bought in this big evangelist and stuff and so like this evangelist preached and mum and dad came to faith and someone come and read it into the room it's like you mum and dad just gave the lives Jesus oh no way so yeah so it's been a real journey as a family so but yeah it's great yeah it sounds like God just literally took hold of your whole family and transformed them that's beautiful isn't you know and I think there's real hope in that for all of us because I'm sure that listeners can resonate with a sense of saying well you know I I have a faith but my parents don't all my siblings do but I don't and you know I think it's God is interested in individuals but he's also interested in families you know and he's constantly working isn't he so yeah that's exciting so Charlotte clearly you had a very exciting set of teenage years and it really established your faith as authentic for you as you stepped forward into your 20s did you experience a sense of that deepening or were there more challenges that you encountered so yeah I think for me it was really not long after my brother moved away to train as a youth pastor I think that's when I started to question like I really believe in this God and in Jesus but I don't really want to follow him like all the things I thought you had to lay down of like oh I'm not allowed a boyfriend you know so you think as a teenager in your you know lack of and sun because I hadn't got any ground in in faith that it meant that I couldn't do any of the fun things and actually you know that was my naivety then obviously I know so differently now but and so that was then when all my friends were starting to go out part in and drinking and all these kind of things and I wanted to be a part of that and so I was like almost two feet one foot in the world of like I want to go out and do the part in with the other part of but I still want Jesus because I like him and I know he transforms my life but equally I don't want to follow all these rules and I'll take him into some places but not all yeah yeah giving parts of my life but not the rest yeah and I think but the more I kind of struggled that fence the more the one foot wart the other way and and kind of got further away from him so I think in my heart I still always believed in him but I think over then the next few years I kind of just didn't have a good solid grounding to really truly know what it meant to to follow Christ and while would want to lay those things down and so yeah it was going through that then to university life it was kind of like went out and I went absolutely wild like I got awards at my university for being you know somebody the life and soul of the party at the end of university they award at the student guild one female and one male on a real life membership for your service to the student guild for how much of a party person you are and I won the female one so it's not going out wild I went and I you know I knew everybody I organised a lot of stuff there and so it was I literally remember waking up in bed one morning and going I need to go back to Jesus like I think I've got everything or one but actually I don't and actually and so I just remember rocking back up at church and being like yeah I'm still kind of living at uni still kind of going out partying but I just feel empty and and it was from there then that I slowly just you know God graciously ushered me back into you know the right direction and getting some really good disciple super mentoring about what it really means to lay down your life on what the Christian faith is and it's not missing out on the fun stuff that you think it's fun but actually it is actually better for us to to make the choices to follow Jesus so yeah yeah thank you for explaining that because I think it's it's really important to be honest and real isn't it you know that we all have stages where we doubt we all have stages where we're like well God you know I want to follow you but actually it's really tough to do so right now and it'd be much easier to just go and do this you know but actually what are we going to choose in that point so I do want to ask you Charlotte when you had that sense of waking up you said you felt empty what did that really feel like that sense of emptiness yeah it's a great question I would say I have never felt an emptiness like I did in that kind of it was probably a couple of months season of just going I just really don't feel like of like what like what what am I getting up for like I've done the party and I'm kind of bored of getting drunk and bored of you know meeting different guys and all that kind of stuff so what like what is it like I don't want to get and then you thought is at the end of you news I've got to go to work now and I'm like I don't want to just go to work for the rest of my life so then I knew I've got to live for something greater than me and actually I knew deep down that that was Jesus and I knew that the peace and I was reminded of the peace the day that I you know the the day I met Jesus the day that the jigsaw puzzle felt complete I felt like a peace I'd never experienced and I remember literally thinking in that darkness of like I need that feeling again because this hasn't led to where I thought it would and I know if I carry on down this route it's going to get a lot messier and my health at the time wasn't great either from all the party and in the impact on my body so I was like if I want to you know see life to the full actually maybe I've been looking through the long wrong lenses and maybe I need to look through Jesus' lenses and and it was the greatest choice you know I ever could have made. You've never looked back hey so Charlotte let's fast forward then to another period of your life so you're married at this stage and you and your husband really want to have a family but actually things aren't as straightforward as you hope and anticipate are they can you tell us a bit more about that season of your life and how God did it measurably more than all you could ask or imagine or conceive. Yes so about a month after we got married I'd been told that I'd probably never have children which is like a real difficult thing but equally just when I'd come back to church I'd got a prophecy that I'd have a son and a daughter as did my husband before we got together and so when we got together we knew and we didn't got a'r gwybod o fwy'n gweithio. Mae'n gweithio, mae'r gweithio, a'r gweithio, 'oh, wow! Felly, mae yw gweithio'r gweithio, mae'r gweithio. Mae'n gweithio, a'r gweithio'r gweithio, mae'r gweithio, mae'n gweithio. Mae'r gweithio, mae'r gweithio, mae'r gweithio, mae'r gweithio. Mae'r gweithio, mae'r gweithio. Mae'r gweithio. Mae'r gweithio. Mae'r gweithio. Mae'r phryddio'r llwyr i'n gwneud y cafodd ymwyr a'r phryddio, ymwyr a'r phryddio'r llwyr. Mae'r phyredi'r gweithio bod y ddwyr ni'n mynd i'n gweldau 'oh, mae'r phryddion. Mae'r phyredi'r phyredi'r ddwy'r llwyr y'n mynd i'n gweldau, pethau'r phyredi'r phyredi'r ddwy 'oh, mae'r phyredi'r phyredi'r llwyr. Mae'r phyredi'r phyredi'r phyredi'r llwyr. Germ gearachitchol vacun a gael gallunan i gwneud re lotelruaf rhoi mewn l�� sic oyt Socieliawn Bertords y qawr ag yr Gael gyboelethau rib�� ar yr alfeg Wiseld a Bea Salばi a'r gael gallunan i gwneud. Mae'r gael gallunan i gwneud wrth gael gallunan i gwneud wrth gael gallunan. Mae'r gael gallunan i gwneud wrth gael gallunan. Mae'r gael gallunan i gwneud wrth gaelunan. Mae'r gaelunan i gwneud wrth gaelunan. "ňę mynd llaud a'r dusyd Thirty would**ser y bus inw " "I'm not mynd, but I'm not even there. And then I got the news that I never expected was, I'm really sorry there's no heartbeat and you just kind of like what? Like we have prayed for this baby for five years God like this is not how it's meant to be. Absolutely, and this is not how it's meant to be. No, no. And so it just you know obviously all those questions go through your head of like this feels like a cruel trick guard and like why would you do this to me? And you know it's natural questions that we have and then I had to go and I mean even just this bit of the story is like so I had to go and then there were obviously you have to be induced to still deliver and they said but because it's the school holidays very busy so you might be in for a couple of days because we've got hardly any midwives on and live births take precedent over you know still births and stuff. And even where you have to cut through the hospital you have to cut through where the live births were to go to where you were going to go and deliver your baby's in all these babies everywhere. Oh sure. So we arrive at this suite and this is where God really does step in but it's only kind of like in hindsight that you see. So there was no midwives but actually the first place we'd gone when we got the news was to church and just said can you just pray for us we've got to go to the hospital now and start to you know look at how we'll deliver this baby. And the one guy who was in the room was one of the elders and unbeknown to me he phoned his wife who was a good friend of the families of our families she'd actually looked after my husband as a child. He phoned her who was on holiday and said I know you work on this ward come back from your holiday so you can deliver Charlotte. So when we got there she'd come back from her holiday early because she knew there'd been nobody to deliver us and she arrived and she said I've booked myself on the bank I've had to sign up to be a bank nurse I'm going to be here to deliver your baby. So someone we knew was there. Wow. Then we had to have the hospital's chaplain who was our senior pastor at the time. I've got washed another coincidence. Yeah. We also had to have the hospital's funeral service because they paid for the funeral and it was another one of the elders who worked for that company. So he was the one that arrived with the baby's casket and all of that stuff. So you look at what was such a horrifically heartbreaking time and God just had his fingertips in it and God gave me this incredible scripture there and then it was just around you know from John where it talks about unless a single grain of wheat falls to the ground and dies it cannot be multiplied and in that moment you're just like I don't want a single grain of wheat to die on the baby back. You know so it's you know but again it's just God just as you look back you see that he's trying to show he's there with you in the comfort in you in even in the most painful of seasons and that was God's promise to create so much more which was the charity and I can go back to that shortly but then from there we kind of so we had our son Micah and he was absolutely perfect but obviously his first breath wasn't here on earth it was with his father God in heaven and you know I'm confident to know that you know I'll get to meet him again one day because of my baby. I certainly will. Yeah which is incredible and so and then from there two years later we went on to have IVF because we struggled to get pregnant again and unfortunately I miscarried that baby a week before the charity ball that I was running I miscarried the baby in a week after I nearly died from complications from the miscarriage then the following year. If you're a Charlotte let's cause you there with a second. No I just want to cause you and say so there you are you've lost Micah and his heartbeat had stopped and I do personally know what that feels like listen as well know from my story with Abigail but then you went on to lose your second baby and to have a miscarriage you know in that place of yet again disappointed hopes dashed dreams that sense of saying where's Noah where's Grace you must have felt completely broken I mean you have talked about the fact that in the background there was this charity and I know that's an aspect of what God was doing redeeming this situation through you but actually let's put that aside and let's just say how did you feel as a woman? Yeah it's hard because you I think first and foremost you feel like you've you've almost like you don't know some where your body's broken that she question is and it's like what's the matter with me what and why not make God why don't you want to bless me and why is everybody else that you know there were kids that we were youth leaders too that had got at this point got married and had kids themselves and you're like they're like 15 years younger than me yes I just felt some bear and it's disappointing but you can't focus on that and obviously those feelings come up and it's natural and it's human to feel those things but I think the more we linger on them the harder it is to kind of lose through the grief like just the things we have to just come to a place of just never having the answers to and I think the other bit is you really struggle because you feel like you've let your husband down I think that's the and even though you haven't that again that's just a shame feeling that like lingers and it did put a massive pressure on us as a married couple I mean particularly straight after my car my husband kind of said I'm done with my faith I don't want to go to church anymore like I can't believe you know and he'd been brought up through faith and he said you know I'm just done like I don't believe God would trick me and all those things and obviously again natural feelings and that was another seven years before he actually came back to faith again so that was a bit of a journey because I then was going turning up to church as a grieving mother without even my husband with me and also not known if my marriage would survive you know because it does put so much pressure on and then you go through a miscarriage and all those kind of things that yeah it was it was hard as a woman but and as a couple and I'm sure it was to him as well so at that point when your husband said I'm done and said I'm turning away from God which yeah absolutely is a very natural human reaction isn't it when suffering comes in such waves like that that are unimaginably painful and we just can't understand that we're talking that is a normal reaction but for you therefore how were you how did you sense God with you at that time I think in that season the best thing you can do is you've got to be just this woman who almost puts a stake in the ground and says I'm not budging and I think from our faith and and I think I had to get to a point where I had to go it's okay if I don't get what I hope for it's okay if my husband never comes back to the Lord it's okay if I never have children I would obviously always love that but it's okay because ultimately I can trust God and I think that is the the biggest like stake in the ground is like if I can really firmly place my feet of trust upon him I can get through anything and I can overcome the fact of disappointment and all these feelings of everything in my life felt like it was kind of just spiraling out of control and especially as a type A personality I want to be in control but if you can get to the place of just fully trusting in him and and that and what that looks like practically was I I studied my Bible I prayed I but I didn't just pray and ask I wanted to sit in silence and hear him I wanted him I wanted the Holy Spirit to be my grief counselor so although I would do go to like grief canceling and different things like that I'm ever sitting in some of them thinking yeah this is nice but actually there's nothing quite like sitting with a bit of worship music on and the Holy Spirit actually telling you what's the matter you know there's a bit of a balance is now I'm not saying don't go for canceling but I'm saying you know sometimes sitting with the Holy Spirit where he really is the true gentleman that goes come on Charlotte you know you need to let go of this Charlotte you need to you know and you know and you know and things like just really truly trusting the Lord from our husband's faith you start off in that place where you go are you sure you don't want to do this are you sure you don't want to go and in the end you just have to just keep you know "Oh, church was great today, God did this, and sometimes he'd shut me down and sometimes he'd let me talk about it, but I just had to naturally authentically be myself and not push anything, can any agenda is the same with not pushing God and going, I wanna baby, no, no, no, no, no, no, you know, 'cause you can get like that. I don't think it'd be wrong there were days where I was, but when you firmly can trust him and just let it go to him, that's when I think God can really work, but I think the more we're holding onto it, and so if anyone is in that kind of funny season, it's just going, God, let me open up my hands to you and let your Holy Spirit truly work. I think that's my advice for anyone in that. - Yeah, thank you. And I mean, it's interesting and aspect of your story, Charlotte, that you were given that prophecy so clearly as was your husband that you would have not only two children, but that they would be named Noah and Grace. So you've always had that vision, you had that dream, but seeing it seemingly not come to pass, and yet there you were putting that stake in the ground. So I mean, that's amazing. Do you think it was ever so slightly easier because you'd been given that vision, or do you think in a way, had you not had it, do you think you would have fallen away more easily, had you not had that original vision? - Yeah, that's a great question. And I remember reflecting on that so often, because sometimes I'd hate that I had that vision, because it also meant I'd go, what does that mean I need to adopt? Does that mean, and even questions about, like did I agree with IVF and all that? All those questions that you're asking, they've gone, am I taking an e-mail by just going, by going, oh, I have IVF when God's already promised me children? And I'm not saying that's the case for people, but all these big questions then that I was more wrestling with, but then equally there'd be other times where I'd go, no, 'cause God's promised us two children, we're going to have them. And so it was this kind of like, sea sore effects of like, sometimes I'd be really like, oh, I've got everything this, and then the next I'd kind of tip back to this firm trust of, but he's promised me two children, so I'm going to have them, and whatever that looks like. So, you know, don't get me wrong, I wasn't perfect, I wasn't solidly like, I trust God, but I always aimed to get back there, if I felt like I was having a wobble. So it was tricky having the picture, but equally it was comforting. - Yes, yes, and each of us do as distinct as Nick. God knows what we each need. So it's beautiful that he did give that to you and to your husband. - Yeah. - And you did talk about the fact that obviously at this stage, things were very tricky for you navigating your relationship with your husband. And I think it's important, again, isn't it, to say that this is real, you know, for women worldwide, very often, pain, grief can really impact a marriage, you know? So how might you encourage other women walking in similar shoes, Charlotte, in choosing to continue to really love and honor their men at a time when it's tricky? - Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think looking back now, I think, because at the time, obviously I was such an emotional wretch, just a man, so many different ways, especially. - There's hormones. - Yeah, exactly. It's a mica. Obviously they say, you know, nine months of, you know, the body being pregnant, nine months then of you not being pregnant, the hormones are everywhere. And so also you kind of aren't looking at things level-headedly, like you probably normally would. So you are super emotional. Obviously you've also got the stillbirth, but then you're also worried about the marriage and so. And actually that emotion, and men obviously, you know, men from bars, women from V. There's God definitely designed us differently, and that's great, because that's why we're in partnership together. And so actually I think female friends and mentors around me were really pivotal, because there were things, obviously, I wanted to almost talk to my husband about. That actually eventually I figured out, probably weren't relevant because he didn't get it. And I was trying to force him to get stuff that he would never understand. And that's okay. And obviously he is my best friend, and I did tell him stuff. The midwife who came and delivered mica, who actually ended up being with us for quite a long journey of many other things. She has been like one example of somebody who's been a rock to me that, you know, I could talk to her about all sorts of stuff. And she's the most calm and cladied my mom, has been amazing. A lady called Norma, who did do my canceling, she was incredible. So, and these older ladies in a nice way, they just became like almost my stretcher bearers that carried me to Jesus at times where I couldn't do it. And so my advice would be just to anyone who is struggling, you know, going through that navigation is just being aware of like, I think we over try sometimes when our relationships are in difficult seasons. And actually we should like pull back and go, actually, what is, you know, what is maybe putting pressure onto him where he is made differently to me. And as much as you want the emotional connection sometimes, they're just like, you know, so it's just getting the right navigation with and being aware of each of those differences is probably what I'm trying to say. So, and just keep praying for them, keep praying. Interesting God, like there's so much power in prayer. Like, wouldn't something really, really started to pray for him in a real different sense of not trying to control him, or not, but, you know, into this like, Lord, you'll will be done blessing, you know, giving purpose in his life, giving purpose is worth. You start to notice things because then he's starting to feel his tank is full, which means that he can serve you in a better way. So I think it's truly being servant-hearted to one another without being trying to be almost manipulative even though we don't mean to be if that makes sense. Yes, yes, no, that's brilliant. Thank you. And, you know, I just want to draw us back to something you mentioned a little bit earlier in our conversation. I mentioned that verse from Ephesians 3, Ephesians 3 verse 19 to 20, where it's saying, "You know, God is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine." Now, this was a set of circumstances where people looking in would be, "Oh, God, clearly not doing anything here, you know, there's just God is on mute, this is silent, there's nothing happening." But you had put that stake in the ground. And alongside that determination, where you said, "Oh, God, I'm going to trust you." He did actually birth something new in you, didn't he? There's charity. Tell us about this charity, how it came about, and what the vision was behind it, Charlotte. Yeah, so again, when I was in the hospital, the mid-wild food come to deliver my car. She got in with a walk and she said, "Charlotte, I know you're probably not going to want to hear this right now," she said. But this is the only resource we have that we give to moms who are going through a stillbirth. And it was a Muslim prayer book, and they gave them out for free. And she said, "I know you're not going to want to take it home." She said, "But I think it's inspiration because we've never had a Christian one." She said, "And yet we have so many Christians that come through." And I just remember thinking, "I don't care about this right now, I've got to go and deliver a baby." But she said it in the right tone. She wasn't trying to force it, but just to try and distract my kind of thinking at that moment. But yeah, truly that was what kind of my journey then of my few months of maternity leave, then, because obviously you still get maternity leave, so that I wasn't going to stir crazy every day. Just write a short little passage of what I was going through. And then I turn that into a book. And then we fundraise to give that out to parents so that through chaplaincies and hospital suites and stuff. Just to encourage them, and just a little short snippets around different thoughts. And there was a scripture at the bottom and a signpost in booklet at the back where you tell you about all different resources and charities out there. And so we handed out probably over 15,000 of those for free to people. We've just turned it into a downloadable book. And so we're about to upload that to a brand new website so that people can access it. But it went over 13 countries, I think, had it. And then before I started working at Christian Vision, they got hold of my story and turned it into a video. And actually, hundreds of thousands of people have seen the story. And so it's amazing, because you think through all of that adversity, God has taken Michael's story. And actually thousands of people have probably heard of Jesus and the hope of Jesus in the midst of their adversity because that single grain of wheat fell to the ground and died. And so of course, I would never have wanted him to have died. But equally, God has taken something so painful and turned it into his glory, which is more than I can ever hope or imagine. - That's beautiful. And Charlotte, just for us to know, because I'm not actually sure myself, Michael, what does it mean, the name? - Yeah, great question. So it's, who is their like God or little prophet? So-- - Oh, wow. - Yeah, yeah. - God. - So I mean, he really has had a prophetic lifespan, hasn't he? - Yeah. - I mean, I know you might say that it's tiny in terms of here on this earth, but the impact is remarkable. And I just want to say to you, well done for being so faithful in taking such a season of despair and making it something beautiful, because I think that is amazing. You really honored God in that. And that's what God does best, isn't he? He really is in the business of taking our ashes and making a beautiful and consistently writing new stories. And so, Charlotte, I really want to hear then the arrival of Noah and Grace, because I know they're there. So please put us out of our misery and tell us how did Noah and Grace come into your life? - Yeah, so after the mist carriage, the year later we actually had failed IVF. And then a couple of years later, I was like, okay, it's 10 years now since we've started trying, I want to buy a sports car and I'm going to change Korea because I don't know whether this is going to happen naturally or we're going to adopt or whatever, but right now I just need to do something different. And so I did a bought a nice sports car, a changed career. And what was your car? - I bought a nice Mercedes to be honest. So we're the same kids. So we didn't have any restrictions. So we can have any people. And so, I'm going to say, - Yeah, and then I was in teaching as well, and God really clearly said to me, I want you to come out of teaching, and I was like, "No, I'm really comfortable in this," and then stepped into a new role in a business, and I was really nervous about it, but six weeks into that, I'd had my sports car for eight weeks, I'd started my new job for six weeks, and that was naturally pregnant. And so we were just like over the moon, and so that was nowhere, and so Noah's seven nearly eight, and he really is, and if you think, you know, Noah means rest, and it was rest from all of the work, and all the turbulent time we'd gone through beforehand, and then about 18 months after Noah was born, and my husband came back to the Lord as well, which was incredible, and then Mila Grace, so Mila means grace, so somebody gave us a script draft of Noah was born, that said, "God will give you a double portion of grace for your despair," and I always loved the name Mila as a backup name, in case, you know, God maybe let us adopt or something extra on top, and I looked at the one day and it went grace, and I was like, "Oh, she can be Mila, "hi, for grace." So she is a double portion of grace, and she really lived. - Yes, literally, that double. I love that one. - Yeah, and so she was born, so she's three, nearly four, and even in that journey, I mean, straight after Noah, I nearly died after having Noah as well, great, and so for the first week of Noah's life, I was in HDU and wasn't even able to pick him up, but even within that journey, it just felt like this real solid cementing of the promise of God, and it felt like even right up to that moment, without getting too over spiritual life, it felt like somebody was not happy that this was gonna bring God so much glory, because so many people had waited for Noah to be born, and they'd prayed literally every day, so the day was born, I was, I am not surprised that I've gone through this, but they're absolutely. - Absolutely, but that pleasure, yes. - Yeah, absolutely incredible blessings. They blow me away every day, and you know, you never, I don't know every parent's the same, but you just look at them every day, and you're like, "I cannot believe, God bless us." And you just forget the 10 years of all that pain, and you know, really deep givison, and obviously we never forget my car, and even the baby that we miscarried, you know, to me, that's still a child, I saw the heartbeat of the screams. - Yes, of course. - So to me, I've got four children, two in heaven, two here on earth, and one day we'll be reunited, and I do regularly joke with my children, you better get to heaven, 'cause it's gonna be the only place I'm gonna have all four of my kids in one place. (laughing) - Love you. - Love you. - Yes. - Yeah. - But yeah, God's incredible. - Amazing, so Charlotte, we've heard so much about your life story, which is fantastic, and I would love to give you the opportunity just to share a little bit more about your recent experiences, so you're now working with Christian Vision. What does that entail for you? What did lead you into that place for CV? 'Cause you initially had your sports car, you had your teaching. (laughing) - Well, let's hear it to Christian Vision. I mean, first start and everyone is to leave teaching, then I never wanted to leave the business world, and then God called me into ministry, and I remember it really clearly. I was driving to my job that I really liked in the business world, and I was driving on the way, and one day God said, "Look, I've given you everything you ever wanted, "and I salary a really nice fancy title, "like a lovely job, "even now I've got your child as well." But I've given you all to know it's not where I want you, and I remember hearing it loud and clear, and I was like, "Oh no, you know, you just think, "Oh, I know you're gonna get me to do something like that." And it was like, "I want you to get in handy, "and you know it's today," and I was like, "No, no, I haven't even got a job to go to." And you know, just really, and a phoema husband and I went, "I'm really sorry, I really feel like God's just Tommy's." And my husband's like, "No, you can't do that, "I've got no money, it's coming up to Christmas." And I was like, "I've just got a trust card." And it just felt, "I am a Taipei personality, "so I've got control, it'll. " And literally I walk into my boss's office, sit down and they go, "I'm really sorry, "but I've got a hand in my nose." And he just looked at me and he was like, "Pardon?" What? He was like, "I interviewed hundreds of people "to get you, I really like working, "are you sure I can't convince you to change mine?" And I was like, "No." And like, "How are you trying to explain to a non-Christian "that you're changing your job?" And you don't know where you're going to, and he was like, "Have you got a new job?" And I was like, "No." And he was like, "Did you tell him, did you tell him, "that you've had this clear sense of?" I just read it. I kind of insinuated to it, but he was quite an interesting character. So it wasn't somebody you could really kind of, and I did, it was somebody I'd tried to share faith with. Sure. But I knew he was kind of, yeah, it's a tricky one to explain. And so he said, "Right, what I'm going to do then, "I'll pay for the next month." And you can work, like, be at home on guard and leave. It's at the end of the month, I'll phone you, and then I'm sure you'll come back. I'm sure you will. Because I mean, the benefits of this place was like, things like unlimited leave, and massage every month, and all this-- - I'm not a journalist. - You're like, "Oh, I'm a journalist." This job was epic. And I was like, "Oh, my goodness." And so it was a real blessing, 'cause that month my brother was here from Australia visiting. So I actually had a Christmas with my brother for the whole month being paid. And then I remember, and this is actually the turning point for my husband coming back to faith. At the end of the month, I was like, "I've got no work on Monday, and I don't know what I'm going to do." And on the same day, my husband lost his job, and he was working as a builder for a friend, and then the contract had fallen through. And he hadn't got any work on the Monday, and actually that's when he came back to, like, got on his knees and was like, "Jesus, I need you. I come back to you." And so it was really pivotal, but yeah, it was a real, like, shapely journey. And so then from there, I actually did, like, attempt contracts and work, and then during that sent out my CV to loads of places. And again, got offered a couple of jobs, and I remember I was offered here at CV, and I was like, I really feel called here. And my husband was like, "Well, it's very different for a friend, "sala reason stuff, but I was just like, "but if God's called me into ministry, "he'll deal with the rest." And so I've never looked back. And my very first day was the first day of lockdown, but it is such an incredible ministry. I don't just say that 'cause of work here. It really is like, they look after people so well, we do incredible work on a global scale. And it's one of those ministries that you just really proud to be a part of. And so as much as I was like, "Ah, "it's lovely to come to work and feel so fulfilled." You know, going to, again, less than from early that we've inferred towards is, I was working in a nice company, earning a nice salary and all those kind of things, but did I feel fulfilled every day? Probably not. I probably fulfilled by the title and the wage, whereas here I come every day knowing I'm changing lives and I'm a small cog in a big wheel that is telling people about Jesus. And I know there's many other ministries doing very similar things. And I just think we get to be one part of the body of Christ. And there's nothing more fulfilling than that, I think. - No, no, I'm totally with you. I do want to just put a little thought in there, though, which is to ultimately say, you talked about the fact that you felt God calling you into ministry with CV. But actually, I would shake the boat and say, I think that we're all in ministry. We're all in ministry and whatever jobs and roles God appoints us to. And as you say, the key, which was so apparent in your story is obedience. Is it? That we are all obedient to whatever God is asking us of, at that point, we say yes. And then in that obedience, I think, is that release of power where we can be collaborating with Him and bringing His Spirit into those places. So I just want to really affirm listeners who are listening as well and say all of our roles are so valuable. But I love that you had this clear sense of, no, leave the messages, leave the sports car. This is what I'm asking of you, Charlotte. And I'm putting you here now. And I'd love to ask you, Charlotte, you spoke previously, well, actually, it was in your bio. You talked about the fact that you're really passionate about bringing innovation into the church, into faith. Can you tell us just a little bit more about that, to sort of wrap up the whole picture? Yeah. So at CV, we're a global environmentalism ministry. And we seek to introduce people to Jesus and to resource people, to do the same resource to the church, to do the same. And innovation is just one part of really what we do. So really, we're looking at-- so I mean, we do have people that, you know, pioneers on the ground that are reaching people in some of the kind of more unreached people groups. But really, one of the things that we're quite well known for is, for example, our innovation through things like social media, chat box, even through an event we run called Digital Day. So digital day is very much around gathering some people, like like mine people, who are in the mission space that want to reach people in new and innovative ways. So it might be through a roadblock church. It might be through block chain and all these other things that are resources that many of us have probably not realised are in our hands that we're already exploring. And as you touched on just, you know, like, yeah, I want to revisit and just say, obviously, for some people, whatever job they're doing, absolutely, is where they're called to be. And it just is where I felt, you know, in teaching. Absolutely. No, I didn't mean to it, but you did. No, you did. So I'm just-- but for some of those people, when they're working in blockchain, when they're working in Minecraft, when they're-- they can utilise any skill and put that to Jesus to use to reach people. And that's what I love about CVs. Just it's very much like wanting to create those conversations, shift mindsets and say, you know, even down to the phone in your pocket, how can you share on a video that you found on Instagram that's about the gospel to a friend that's not a Christian? How can you repost it to stories? How can a church make its social media feed more relevant to people with the gospel than just notice boards? So there's so many aspects to that. And that's what I really like about it. really, really love is that we're kind of at the forefront of those conversations. Yes, yes. And your story is so multifaceted. It's exciting to see how God's brought you to where you're at now and the impact that you're continuing to have. So thank you so much for joining us today. It's been amazing to hear your stories. May I ask you to finish by praying with us and wrap us up in prayer? I mean, I'd love to pray for obviously women and families who have experienced similar things to yourself through that journey of infertility, through stillbirth and miscarriage. But I think also on a wider sort of lens, it would be great just to pray for women to really get passionate about whether at, with God, you know, whether it's in a current job role or whether it's in a new challenge, you know, that they like you would just put that stake down and say, "Yep, God, I'm trusting you in this and I'm going to choose to be a medium." So yeah, but let's just wrap up in prayer. Yeah. Yeah, Father, as we start off, 2026, Lord, I just pray for every woman that listens to this conversation, Father God, I just pray that you help everyone who is struggling particularly through infertility and child loss and that journey, Father God, may you first of all be there comfort, their source of strength and peace, Father God, and may they find an ability to trust you, which feels really different to how their body and their minds probably feel in right now. But may they trust you in a way that they have never previously thought they could or hoped, Father God, and bring hope into their lives. Father, I just pray for every woman who is listening in, they step into this new year, may you bless them, may you give them a sense of purpose and peace in the place that you have put them, Father God, and may they just always seek to see you and how you're at work in those situations and places, whether it's in their marriage, in their workplace, whatever that may be in their family. And Lord, may we just all remember that you do sit on the throne, Father God, that you ultimately are the lovers of our soul, Father God, and may we all know that and feel that sense of purpose and love in our lives today. And you are name, amen. Amen. Yeah, Father, I just thank you that you are in the business of making all things new and here at the cast above this brand new year and all the promise that it carries. Father, I pray that you would take all of our situations and you would make them beautiful as we trust in you, Father. I just want to echo Charlotte's words and thank you for the privilege of knowing you at the beginning of this new year in Jesus name. Amen. Thank you so much for listening in to Carry Shales today with me, your host, Catherine Grimes, and our beautiful guest. And a big thank you to all the women who make Carry Shales podcast possible for your generous support. You know who you are and we are eternally grateful. A big thank you goes out to David Campion of Open Sky Media for editing and producing this episode. And this is where you come in. If you have enjoyed listening to this episode, please help us by growing the Carry Shales community of women of faith. You can leave a review or a rating, pass the stories on and look for the stories in your own life as well. Thank you and look forward to talking with you next time. [BLANK_AUDIO]