I Love You One Day, I Hate You The Next

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. Your favorite fall flavors are back at Starbucks. The one and only Pumpkin Spice Latte and the deliciously smooth Iced Pecan Crunch Latte have arrived and are ready to sip all season long. Or find a new favorite, like the new Iced Banana Bread Latte that tastes just like fall in a cup. You can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. We've been together for five years and we've been married for three years. There's so much conflict that I'm not sure we are seeing eye to eye. I mean, we've become very emotionally distant. The mood is kind of soured. Since the beginning of our relationship, there's been a volatility to our dynamic. There's been tension and then it erupts. She has a tendency of running away with her emotions, running away with anger. She will be heated and I will be stoic and trying to control my emotions. Like the way that we have now. Complicated conflict to me is symptomatic of basically a lack of trust. They are five years together. They have a two-year-old. And they've been fighting more and more. Just about every second day. And they would like to know how to bring back some of the good feeling and some of the harmony. Conflict in couples often occurs around three particular dances. Two people going at each other, fighting. Two people going away from each other, silence. Or one person escalating, maximizing, explosive. And one person minimizing and implosive, so to say. One person erupting and the other person holding it together. And it often looks like the explosive one is the one with the temper, is the one who gets angry and the other one, individually, is the one who gets angry. And the other one, individually, is the one who gets angry. And the escalation becomes shorter and shorter because you even if the other person didn't say it you hear it and you fill in the blank on the basis of everything they've said every other time something like this yes that's how i feel yeah yeah and you forget everything that brought you together in the first place so let's go back a second and tell me how you met and how you got together in the first place together they are describing to me the rapid escalations that are becoming more and more frequent and more set like a pattern and yet they both were trying to address how to do child care this wasn't like one person cared and the other one didn't and that's the first thing i noticed is that they both had a good intention and you you you you you neither of them got the feeling from the other that they saw that these two people are just five years together and the relationship the good feeling that they had is fast eroding so i just wanted to have a sense where did the story start what brought you together at one point you chose each other what did you choose i have a sense that the very things that they're fighting about were part of what originally drew them to each other so how did you meet where are you from well we met in college yeah and we fell in love really fast she's how old were you i was 22 22 must have been 22 she was 24 she's very like intense i i mean i really i was really attracted to you know her kind of intensity her brilliance when you used the word intense back then before it had taken on the meaning of fighting and conflict how did you define it what was attractive to you about it that's a good question i suppose it was just kind of the seriousness about life and i really admire that yeah you have heart you have a lot of heart and that's what i love about you that's what i've always been attracted to for me when we met he was so tender like i never received a lot of tenderness from anyone really no one in my life and i was very attracted to that sort of like gentleness tenderness he had a very slow and appreciative way about himself a very harmonious way i would say that was very magnetic beautiful and are you still able to access all of this or if this feels like it is eroding because you've got it for me it does feel like it's eroding i suppose the associations that i have with our relationship are it's you don't feel as safe yeah i suppose that's it i haven't been able to come to our relationship and feel like it's the place where i can be safe i don't feel that stability of the love is first in our relationship my experience has been it's this inner change of love and contempt it's like i love you one day and you said this thing that really upset me and i'm not going to talk to you and i actually hate you the next day and to me it's so incongruous and i'm not going to talk to you and i actually hate you the next day and to me it's so incongruous i'm overwhelmed how bad does it get i'm overwhelmed how bad does it get i'm overwhelmed how bad does it get terrible lately terrible lately terrible lately as in as in as in as in as in as in like there will be one thing that is said like there will be one thing that is said like there will be one thing that is said and then i'm the one who escalates and then i'm the one who escalates and then i'm the one who escalates like i'll get to this place where i'm like i'll get to this place where i'm like i'll get to this place where i'm like i feel like you don't care about me like i feel like you don't care about me like i feel like you don't care about me i feel like you know like those types of i feel like you know like those types of i feel like you know like those types of accusations accusations accusations and then and then and then well now i'm going to move all your stuff well now i'm going to move all your stuff well now i'm going to move all your stuff out of the room down the stairs into out of the room down the stairs into out of the room down the stairs into another room whatever another room whatever another room whatever don't be here with me right now don't be here with me right now don't be here with me right now we can't do this clearly we can't do this clearly we can't do this clearly yeah it'll be like that yeah it'll be like that yeah it'll be like that you move the stuff or you throw the you move the stuff or you throw the stuff throw both stuff throw both stuff throw both so you you throw you yell both you yell yes you shove you push you both you yell yes you shove you push you both you yell yes you shove you push you you what you what you what no no push you throw things no no push you throw things no no push you throw things at each other at each other at each other the steps but i guess it wasn't really like at me it but i guess it wasn't really like at me it but i guess it wasn't really like at me it wasn't intended to hurt me and it was wasn't intended to hurt me and it was wasn't intended to hurt me and it was just kind of just kind of just kind of emphatically you know i'm asking i'm emphatically you know i'm asking i'm emphatically you know i'm asking i'm asking just to have a sense of asking just to have a sense of asking just to have a sense of the point at which you shut down and the point at which you shut down and the point at which you shut down and you fight as if you have nothing to lose you fight as if you have nothing to lose you fight as if you have nothing to lose yeah they both are clearly distressed they both are clearly distressed they both are clearly distressed at the way that they unravel at the way that they unravel at the way that they unravel and they're very honest in describing and they're very honest in describing and they're very honest in describing what they do what happens between them what they do what happens between them what they do what happens between them they didn't have to do a demo in the they didn't have to do a demo in the they didn't have to do a demo in the session session session there was no need for them to actually there was no need for them to actually there was no need for them to actually escalate into a fight escalate into a fight escalate into a fight they were able to describe it with the they were able to describe it with the they were able to describe it with the sadness with the shame sadness with the shame sadness with the shame with a lot of feelings that accompany it with a lot of feelings that accompany it with a lot of feelings that accompany it but it leads me to want to explore with but it leads me to want to explore with but it leads me to want to explore with them them them not what they're fighting about but what not what they're fighting about but what not what they're fighting about but what they're fighting for they're fighting for they're fighting for what is underneath what is each of them what is underneath what is each of them what is underneath what is each of them trying to protect trying to protect trying to protect she says you're not there for me she says you're not there for me she says you're not there for me i thought you were tender you were i thought you were tender you were i thought you were tender you were gentle you were caring gentle you were caring gentle you were caring now i experience it as absent now i experience it as absent now i experience it as absent he says i thought you were intense took he says i thought you were intense took he says i thought you were intense took life seriously life seriously life seriously we're fearless now you're hysterical and we're fearless now you're hysterical and we're fearless now you're hysterical and erratic erratic erratic beginning to experience your partner as a beginning to experience your partner as a beginning to experience your partner as a threat threat threat that switch is one feature that switch is one feature that switch is one feature that is often present in a high conflict that is often present in a 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a cup you can find your favorite in a cup you can find your favorite in a cup you can find your favorite taste of fall only at starbucks i want to just pick up on one thing you i want to just pick up on one thing you i want to just pick up on one thing you said before said before said before he brought tenderness and i have not he brought tenderness and i have not he brought tenderness and i have not experienced much tenderness in my life experienced much tenderness in my life followed when we fight i'm the hard-edged i become the one who has no tenderness i become like the people that i grew up with or have lived with is what went through my head is that yes there's such a contrast between the tenderness that you sought and the hard edge that then is brought out of you when you no longer experience him as tender but you experience him as absent or passive or not engaged or You know, his slowness becomes passivity. Yes, absolutely. And her intensity becomes aggression. So you've lost the core reason of what drew you to each other because you're fighting other things that are more historical than just both of you. Because once we married, we became family. And once we became family, we began to bring into our relationship the stuff that each of us had experienced in our own families. Yes. Now I need to know what. I mean, I want to hear it more from you. Where did you grow up? With whom? What context? So I grew up, I was brought up in a pretty middle class. I had both my parents growing up and my sister. So I grew up in a pretty middle class. You're number one or two? I'm number one. Number one. In a literal way, the favorite person. And your parents are from where? So my dad is a white man. He's a teacher. My mom is Filipino. She came from a first, I guess she's second generation. Yeah. I had a very happy childhood. You know, just I suppose from being. being like suburban, middle class, it was fairly sheltered, you know. How did people communicate, relate? Yes. Connect, disconnect, reconnect with each other? I didn't observe a lot of conflict between my parents. I think it was extremely important to them. Probably if they did have conflict to kind of hide that from us. It's a very loving thing. And family, everybody knows that we're super supportive of each other, you know, and we'll be there for whatever, whenever. And harmony supersedes. Yes. Yes. Harmony supersedes. There wasn't really. Confrontation. There wasn't really confrontation or there wasn't really a. I mean, there wasn't any way that I really observed coming up like this is how we navigate conflict. You know, this is how we talk it out. I never had that model really. And we don't say what we really think and feel or we do. Or we measure it by how people will react to it. That's a good question. I say gauge by reaction. And like they're more so put it into humor. I mean, yeah, the first holiday I ever spent with them, his dad was in the kitchen with his aunt and they're taking shots. And he's like, oh, look, your name is on this shot. Glass and it says bitch on it. And she looks at him and goes, huh, you can tell she's kind of upset. And she kind of like laughs nervously and walks away. And this was shocking to me because I was like, oh, my goodness, we're calling each other bitches. So it seems that like the men, for example, his family, they all say something, throw something into the conversation. And if the women react, then it's like, that's how you know that maybe you shouldn't have said that either someone will kind of correct you. In a humorous way in his family, or maybe they're just doing it behind closed doors after everyone goes home. Yeah, I mean, I would say that could be the case. Do people get mad? Do people get sad? Do you actually have a sense of what goes on with people or the collective good is what dominates? And the individual will modulate their affect and their thoughts? I think they probably hide it. I mean, they probably hide it, you know, because I'm not really aware of a lot of it. The bond comes first, I suppose. Are you also saying that because the bond comes first, regardless of people's feelings, what drives the bond is loyalty, duty, obligation, harmony? Yes. Not how you feel about the people. Yes. And so does that then make you less aware, less able to articulate your feelings, your thoughts? Yeah. And then you find this woman who, as you call intense, you know, what you see is what you get. Yeah. And things are clear. Absolutely. And she tells it as it is, of course, sometimes more than you care to hear. Because you've all gotten to the extremes of this. Absolutely. And she not only tells you as it is, she says, I can continue to experience the bond even when I fight and I disagree. They don't stand in a contradiction for her. And that may have been very attractive at first, but also very new and different. Hmm. So, you know. I like to fight, she says. You know, even if I say I'm out of here and I'm gone and I, you know, we should end this. It's like words for effect. Yeah. Yeah. That's. But they stick on you. That's right. And it takes you a while to come back from there. Yeah. Maybe it's a thing where I don't know if she's actually going to come back. Yeah. When you say you're walking away. Yeah. And telling me things like, this means our divorce. It's new to me. I mean, I'm giving signals to you that your idea of stability, a really important word for your sense of family. I'm giving you signals you're not going to have that with me. Yes. Yeah. Or that may not be possible in the future. Exactly. I'm getting that it's better that I say yes. So we can avoid having this. Confrontation that kind of implodes our day and. Well, it might or might, it might not, but that's your association. That's my association with your family. Like we are stable because we don't argue. So therefore with Leah and our family, we'll be stable if I avoid the argument. That's right. And the more she will talk for you and the more, the only times you will say something is when you think that what she said is fundamentally incorrect. Absolutely. Give me a little bit of your background because I need to get a little bit more of a picture from both of you. Yes. Okay. That makes sense. So I'm from the D.C. area. I grew up there with both my parents for a short time. So I was like six years old. My dad is a black man from Miami, but very much a southerner. And then my mom is. She's Polynesian. She's from American Samoa. My parents, they were together for a time until I was like six. We, I would say, were a more like lower middle class, working class type family. It was just my dad working essentially and supporting us. And then one day when I was six years old, after a weekend breakfast, same as every other week, there was just a moving van outside and he was gone. And yeah, we just. We just didn't see him for a while. Eventually, we lost that house that we were in and then we were homeless. Yeah, we lived with a support system. So there will be other mothers, one of them that we could live with for a while. And not even a year into that, we were able to get on our feet and get our own apartment again. My sister is now 17 and she's working to help pay bills. My mom is at work all the time. And I was kind of the oldest at that point. And so we would walk ourselves to school, cook dinner. And then, yeah, when I became more of a teenager, a preteen, my parents got back together. Suddenly, they became born again Christians and they said, we need to forgive each other. We need to mend this household. It was kind of shocking to me because the whole dissolution of the marriage, my mom would be calling my dad repeatedly leaving. Messages over and over. I will never forgive you for what you've done to me and my children, et cetera, et cetera, because he wasn't there for us. He wasn't there when my sister was paying bills, you know, or I was picking up my son, my brother from daycare, like at like nine years old. Like he wasn't there. And so I do have definitely my own perception of what it means to be strong in your family. And then I also have. This piece of me that I never wanted to have a family and have that be the cross that I die on. I never wanted to be the type of woman who had a husband and kids and was like, well, I'll just kill myself to see what will make their life feel stable or good. Or I can just be quiet and it doesn't matter what what I need, what's going on with me, how valued I feel. When you listen to her. describing piece of her background, but also the way that certain words have taken on a particular meaning for her, right? Stability for you, she experiences as subjugation for women and herself. On the other hand, stability also means that you don't leave the way he did. On the other hand, when you fight and you explode, there's a part of you that, this is just my thought, you know, that every fight you're standing up for yourself. In every fight, you're making sure that you're not. In the fight, you're making sure that you're not. The position that your mother was in. And so every fight, the smallest and the biggest, becomes a fight of sustainability, a fight for emancipation, a fight for women's rights, a fight for. It's like you do radical revolution with your husband in every fight, in every argument. And then you fight as if you have nothing to lose when that's not the case. I think that you said two things before that are very important. Some days I feel loved and some days I experience the contempt. That, to me, is a core issue. And then you said something that is very important, which is, it's extremely important for me to not be dependent, helpless, at the mercy of others, even though my mother, while she was helpless, she may not have had the resources of working and. And the materiality that comes with that. But she definitely had relational resources that came in very, very handy at a time when all of you needed it. It's just that we don't value that type of resourcefulness in the same way. And you pride yourself on your self-reliance and you resent how much you had to do normally. Yes. Very understandably so. And so every time you do something and it starts to feel like it's not equal. It becomes instantly, here I am in the very place that I promised myself I would never be. And now I'm intense. I'm fighting with my past. But you need to understand that so that you don't just think, why is she making such a big fuss? That doesn't mean it stays this way, but you have to know that the big fuss is not because the laundry matters so much. Absolutely. Let's pick the example that you walked in with. I wanted to make sure that our little boy is well attended. Yes. And at no point did you say to me, I want to make sure that you feel okay because you're living for the day. And I know that in order for you to be able to do this session and be able to feel present, you need to know that our little one is taken care of. Yes. And that this idea of who is taking care of who. is a core theme in her life. Nobody took care of her, and she took care of little ones when she herself was nine years old. Yes. When I listen to myself in a session, a lot of what I do is watch the pacing. I need to say something, then I stop. Then I watch to see. Then I listen to the reaction, or I let them respond to what I just said. That gives me the feeling that my interpretation is being absorbed. It makes sense. They recognize themselves in it. They feel less alone because I see them. In this moment, I just felt like suddenly I was talking at them. It's not easy for me to listen to myself because there are moments where I just really wished that I was talking to them. So I stopped, that we just sit in silence if need be, and let this land. At the same time, I see that both of them want to understand, why is this happening to me? Why do I find myself there? How did I get here? And while I feel like I'm talking a lot, maybe too much, I also want to understand that I'm not alone. watch their body language, their face, their eyes, their shaking heads that are saying to me, yes, this is actually grounding, this is centering, don't stop. So sometimes I think I could do with less, but I notice that I talk more because I sense an invitation, a request on the part of the people that there's something stabilizing about making sense of something that can feel so often out of control. Have you ever wondered who invented rock and roll or why Fleetwood Mac fell apart or what it was like at Motown in the early years? Well, do I have a podcast for you. My name is Will Anderson. I'm a songwriter, a musician, and a huge music history buff. And I'm so excited to announce my new podcast, The Monday Beat. I teamed up to make this podcast with the Vox Media Podcast Network because ever since I was a kid, I loved hearing and reading stories about classic artists, recording sessions, and music history. And I wanted to have a place to be able to take what I've learned and share some of those favorites with you. Every Monday, I'll be releasing a new episode and deep diving into a new story with experts and special guests, and it's going to be a blast. So if you're a music history geek like me, or even just a casual music fan, jump in because I promise The Monday Music Club is going to be the podcast for you. I feel in our relationship, I'm put in this position. When you walk away, I have to follow you. And that's the only way that we can keep our relationship going is you walk away because you're fed up, because you don't have the patience, because you don't have the grace. And I can recognize in the moment when we're not together. And I can recognize in the moment when we're not talking about what we're talking about anymore. I just want to reassure you that I don't need to walk away. That we can disagree. What is walk away? Walk away is, I mean, well, literally what I'm talking about is getting up, going upstairs, saying I'm done with the conversation. There's no coming back. And I'm not going to walk away. I'm not going to walk away. And there's some times where it happens before I even have the opportunity to ask what happened. What did I say? It's more immediately apparent with her that when she experiences his absence, she protects herself the way she learned to protect herself in her own way. family where she literally lived with the absence of her parents. And as I turn to him, I'm aware of two things he just said in passing almost. One is, when you go upstairs, I'm afraid you won't come back. And I guess I better say yes to make sure that you don't dismantle our family. I don't want you to do with me what we did. And that's the safety he's really talking about. He wants to be able to be more confrontational with her, but he needs to know that she'll be there on the rebound. You've told me this many times before. I don't agree that you don't know why I walk away because I'm super vocal. I feel that you are you. Can I stop you one second? I feel that you is never a feeling. I feel that you leads to a thought about him. Yes, my perception. So if you have thoughts about him, that's one thing. If you have feelings, that's another thing. But the But usually a judgment or a criticism about him. Yeah. now what happens if she goes upstairs and she says i'm done with this sometimes i'll take a break then i'll go upstairs i'll ask her what happened you know can we talk about it because i want to reassure her and i want to comfort her do you do it with words or do you also do it physically with words usually what happens if you try to reach out physically sometimes she'll push me away or she's cold and then do you let go immediately or does your desire to comfort her say we need a hug usually i let go sometimes i feel like i'm you know i'm trespassing if i do that and you know maybe there are things that need to be said there's a point where i feel i just can't reach her like it doesn't really matter what i'm saying which is why i'm asking you you know we are all bilingual at least we communicate with our bodies and we communicate with words and we communicate with our faces and our gestures so this is a question for you if he was to hold you even when you're cold would you experience it as trespassing or might you experience it as he can really withstand me and he has the patience to wait till i come back because i've just gone into the nine-year-old part of me yes i would say the second one i've never felt that it was trespassing but he doesn't know that yeah i think that's kind of your assumption just because you are a little bit more give people space i want to give you an image you've seen your little one sometimes he stands in the crib and he's crying yeah and you go to pick him up yeah but when you pick him up he arcs and you hold him steady without fear of trespassing until he folds inside your chest an adult that is cold or an adult that jerks is our version of arcing yeah if you want to come say nothing and you come in whole yeah if you want to come say nothing and you come in whole but you hold with the confidence that you hold your little one because you know that in that moment that's really what they need is comfort not stability comfort then you hold until they give themselves over but they don't do it immediately because they're back in the part of them that is that child that is shutting down because there's nobody to rely on yeah can you do it with your little one okay it's the same idea i like that and sometimes it's it really is about staying yeah but no talking you don't talk to the little one the idea is you're trying to talk with someone the idea is you're trying to talk with someone when neither of you have access to language that makes sense so the conversation is for afterwards and it should not start with what did i do what did i say absolutely because it's false because you pretend to want her to bring you into the correction facility but in fact you have no you don't agree with it so you set her up in my language it's a passive-aggressive move you're nice like your mom dad and aunt and uncle aren't like this i told him this before he comes from a family of teachers i've told him i feel like you're talking to me like i'm the teacher i'm the principal i'm supposed to wag my finger and you won't upset me and i just don't know what to do with you i just want you to understand me yeah i feel that life yeah so the next time you come in asking what did i do wrong what did i say to upset you please correct me please you know um what what what should be the punishment that's amazing and with some humor please because by the time she's going to answer you about what you did to annoy her she's going to be annoyed yeah and you're going to feel unjustly accused because you think of yourself as a good guy you think she has the temper and you're the sweet one you're laughing at me or with me i don't know which one it is here but no i'm laughing because we will say things and allude to this and i think we know this i've told you this i feel really uncomfortable being labeled the argumentative one when i feel like he argues too and he argues back and so why am i though i told him recently just because you don't raise your voice doesn't mean you don't explode because i feel the passive aggression it just bothers me more because i wish i just had it on the table so i could come you know i could come but you know what you don't enough take seriously is that you do scare him yes i do you know when you start throwing dishes and throwing his shit down the stairs and all of that that is scary because in that moment now you need to talk because yeah in that moment it's yeah it's the slightest thing can just that's what you think is the slightest what i think exactly what i think is the slightest thing or what i think is you know benign or even it's just but you you understand now that the slightest thing is just the thing that gets it going yes it usually is important to ask yourself what's underneath the anger anger serves a function yes it usually is an attempt to protect ourselves from something so in some way because you instantly go into the what did i do or i don't think i did anything or what i did wasn't such a bad thing in the first place and you're busy with the justifications around your actions you lose your ability to just take a quick check-in and see what the hell is going on absolutely yeah you're very busy making sure that you are the good guy yeah and so you're arguing about the seriousness of of the infringement and then you get into a debate about it's the slightest thing no it's a bigger thing it's you know and it has nothing to do with that yeah that's right both of you wanted to make sure that you have the proper child care for your kid don't lose sense of that yeah you each had a different idea of how to get there but you had a shared goal yeah and you lose the vision yes i tend to lose the vision when i feel he's not listening and receiving what's important to me what i'm trying to say then i no longer want to have a conversation because i i feel at that point not listened to i get it i understand that it feels like i can't talk to him so i'll go and talk with myself upstairs or somewhere but it's not you each want the other person to talk to you each want the other person to talk to you each want the other person to be the one that makes the difference and at some point you ask yourself what can i do differently you know you want him to hear you but it's not particularly clear that you heard him you've already told him he was was stupid or ridiculous or whatever the words you and that will end it and you want her to not be impatient or to have more grace but you lose sight of basically acknowledging with her they appreciate what you're trying to accomplish so As long as you each think, I need you to listen to me, and you don't ask yourself how well of a listener am I, you're missing a point. Yes. Okay? So what helps? What have you tried? What could you each do that you know would make things better? This is a question to both of you. Well, I mean, what do you think? What would help? Well, I think it has been helping. When you come to me and say, what can I do? What are you feeling? In a more open way instead of the what did I do, what went wrong, let's dissect it and keep going. That's helped a lot recently. Okay, good. The hugging and the holding and staying, it helps because there is a part of me that feels like you still don't understand, but are you going to stay here? Are you going to still stay? Even though I'm still upset and still hug? You bring a container when you put your arms around, and you bring something that says the connection is solid. And it may say, I don't understand you, but I still love you. Yeah. By the time I met this couple, I was thinking intensely about conflict, conflict in relationships, about how we are experiencing a type of atrophy of our social muscles, of how to deal with difference and discord in relationships. There's always been couples who fight a lot, but there's also a real lessening of skills in how to actually engage fiercely with each other, disagree, fight, but stay connected. And so I created a course. And I thought of them a lot as I was doing this course, which you can find on my website at estherperelle.com and where I distinguish between productive and destructive conflict, between this notion of what is it we're really fighting about and for when we get locked in repeated patterns with our partners. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Huwete Gatana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers, of Where Should We Begin, are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul. For more information, visit the website at estherperelle.com. to mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai, the new iced pumpkin cream matcha, or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso. You can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks.