I Gave Him an Ultimatum. Now What?

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. Your favorite fall flavors are back at Starbucks. The one and only pumpkin spice latte and the deliciously smooth iced pecan crunch latte have arrived and are ready to sip all season long. Or find a new favorite, like the new iced banana bread latte that tastes just like fall in a cup. You can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks. Fall is here, and that means the pumpkin spice latte is back at Starbucks. It's the one we've been waiting for. So whether you're a fan of the original pumpkin spice latte, or ready to make your own, you can mix it up with an iced pumpkin cream chai, the new iced pumpkin cream matcha, or the new iced pumpkin cream shaken espresso. He integrates into my friend group incredibly. Like, my partners, we literally travel the world. But he still is in these two other monogamous relationships that they don't know I exist. If I come to his place, he basically has to, like, steam clean it. So there's no trace of me. Like, it's very, very, very unhealthy. She has been dating with intention, where she wants partners that are open communicators. How I've been always is seeing multiple people, typically hiding a lot of things. Where our problems come in is a big part of my life is these other relationships that I've closed in. off to others. I always ask him, I'm like, what if something happens to you? What's the move then? We all just meet at your hospital bed? When they come in, they present as a couple that is grappling with a misalignment around ethical non-monogamy and her wishing for more transparency and his living a life of intense compartmentalization. But very quickly, it becomes clear that that's not the only thing here happening. This is as much a session about polyamory as it is a session where one person lets their partner know, something needs to change. I need a response from you. I need us to make a decision. And repeatedly, the partner does not do so. He has fully agreed with me that he needs to make this change. He had told me he was going to end things with them or have these conversations by the new year, which did not happen. So I just said, you know, we need space. There's so many crossroad moments where often one person finds themselves making ultimatums, be it about commitment, be it about having children, be it about revealing a secret, be it about being present, be it about being a part of a group, be it about being a part of a group. But in fact, they don't necessarily respond this way. And so they have to carry out their ultimatum. And the decision is, well, if you don't follow this request or the expectations, then I must go. But they don't want to go. Recently, she put an ultimatum with the request that she wanted to become known to his other partners. He did not meet the ultimatum. They broke up. This is not the first time that they go through this very same loop. And when they are apart, they remember how good they have it together. And so this is when they come wondering, what kind of a future do we have? Can we find a way to be partners still? Are we able to find a way to be on the same page and have that perfect type of relationship? Where do we start? Let's meet and give me a sense as to how we landed here today. Okay, so I think the important thing to know is that we both identify as solo polyamorous. And that's actually how we met, was on a dating app where we both disclosed that, and that was an immediate alignment. And I also practice relationship anarchy. So I am very open-minded to all sorts of different relationships. And I want different relationships in my life that work for me in the situation I'm in now. And that's important for me and my partners. And the solo is you first? Your primary partner is yourself? Because it can mean different things for different people. Right. For me, the solo is that I would never get on a relationship escalator with anybody. I have no desire for marriage. Or cohabitation. Or financial entanglement. So I guess in that case, I am my own primary partner. Okay. And for you? Yeah. I mean, it's very similar, I think. I actually did not have an identity maybe until somebody brought that to me of like, you operate this way. I've always had multiple partners, but kept it fairly secret until I was in a relationship that was monogamous. Ish. But then on the other side, I was cheating. And I didn't want to ever do that again. So once I ended that relationship, I was like, okay, now I'm going to speak more openly. And that's sort of what I've done. Eight, nine years, I think. But then not really doing the follow-ups needed, where it's like, somebody asked where I'm at. I'd rather not say anything or potentially lie. Where it's created these monogamous, relationships, even though they know I see other people, I can't really speak openly about my partners with them, which I want to do. I want to die. How many thems? It's two others. And they know of each other? I mean, they know that I see other people, yes, but not full names or they don't want to meet other people. So it becomes a challenge, even though they know I'm with other people, they just want to be with me. They want to keep it out of their mind, which I agree is not healthy for them either, but it's choices they make. But I also protect that too, I think, a little too much, rather than speaking more openly. And that's where I'm trying to build for myself, for my life, more open, more honest. How highly would you rate yourself on the evasiveness scale? Oh, very high. I'm good at it. Yes, you just gave us a wonderful demo too. Yeah. It slips. It's like, it's like a fish, you know, they ask, but they don't really ask, but I don't really, really tell, but I told them in the beginning, but they don't know eight years later. Yeah. Yeah. There's not much poly in that, by the way. No, I know. And I know that too. Like I take responsibility. In respect of polyamory, this is probably not a good example. For sure. And I think that's how we got here was, you know, we were seeing each other very casually in the beginning. And then we had some. profound experiences together where we realized when we traveled together, when we were out in our community together, we had the most amazing time and the most amazing connection. And so then I wanted to shift towards more partnership because we were so very aligned and the connection was so deep. And that's when I began to realize that his other partners were unaware of me outside of, of a concept potentially, and that he has full access to my whole life. And I never got a single glimpse into any of his life, which over the years I began to realize is because he spends his whole time managing these parallel realities that can never intersect. So essentially there is no room for me and no ability to share anything with me. You know, like you become so close to somebody and you can't reach out to them. And ask for help because they have to pretend in that moment you don't exist. And that was, that's been our breaking point. They meet on this app field and they both present themselves as solo poly. And so there was a sense that their reality is based on the same set of assumptions. But in fact, they realized that they have been part of two very different relationship cultures. His is the culture of secrecy. Hers is the culture of trust. Hers is the culture of transparency. Hers is the culture that she has voluntarily anchored herself into and made a conscious choice about with lots of intentionality and awareness. His, as he says in his first sentence, my identity was kind of assigned to me. I don't really have a sense of identity, but people looked at how I dealt with things and then they told me, oh, this is what you may be, without much investigation of what that represented. And so it is, at the same time, confusing, but also it comes with quite a lot of pain. this need for compartmentalization this need for your left arm not to know there's a right one and to keep things apart and hidden from each other where from because the discussion is less here about is this correct polyamory or it's definitely correct compartmentalization for sure it's correct hiding it's correct obfuscating it's correct evasiveness it's correct half answers and of course you will talk in circles it's meant to do that yes and how many years are you at this two years of us having these discussions and then we had a break last year and the agreement was that he would be in a situation where we would be open with him everything by the end of 2025 and when i realized that wasn't going to happen is when we went on the break yeah okay and honestly for me part of that comes from childhood for sure to try to make a really long story as short as i can i grew up in a church that uh is quite different so i hid that from everybody just because it gets judged and tell me what church saintology growing up my mother and my sister are big parts of that my sister is gone when i was young teenager like she left to go full time in there and my mother had something happen within it that she wasn't around either mentally um full psychotic episode and my father ended up not able to stay with me and my mother but i have to now not only try to live my life as a teenager but also be with my mom protect my mom in a way but also act as a double agent to the church to my father all these things one made me grow up really fast become hyper independent for sure and did you have to hide your mom's situation for sure and was there anyone to protect you i think not having both of my my mom and my sister in my life at that time i don't know if that has because i became promiscuous and was never really wanting full relationship super avoidant of that maybe avoiding a connection i do feel there's areas around that for sure he just said something so important but he muttered through it and didn't even finish the sentence and yet i heard in this one line so many keys for what could become the session he talks about how there was nobody to protect him that he lost his mother and he lost his sister and then instantly he also says but i became very promiscuous at that time and i never really wanted a full relationship because i became super avoidant but with sex so he finds a way to connect with the women but with limited liability he gets his needs met he gets to feel close he gets to experience tenderness but at the same time he gets to experience the dissociation of the need that he has for the intimacy and for the connection he can be on both sides of this polarity connected and disconnected at the same time and it becomes a major part of his life his promiscuity it looks like it is about sex but it is actually using the language the behavior of sex in order to satisfy deep emotional needs while at the same time masking them we have to take a brief break so stay with us and let's see where this goes support for where should we begin comes from quince hate to break it to you but now that it's august that means summer is almost over for some of you that might be a relief autumn means cooler weather which also means it might be time to find some cozy cold weather staples enter quince quince specializes in effortless high quality essentials like ultra soft organic cotton and pre-made cotton and cotton pads and cotton pads and cotton pads and cotton pads and cotton pads premium mongolian cashmere sweaters they're beautifully tailored built to last and transition seamlessly from morning meetings to a nice dinner out this summer i've been wearing quite a bit of quince linen i love the european linen tank because it's light comfortable and goes with just about everything and when the weather cools down i'm looking forward to pulling my cashmere sweaters back out 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a crazy amount yeah do you surprise yourself sometimes somewhat you know like it's almost like i hate to say it but like serial killer like shut off you know where they can like do something crazy and then be very normal and it's not quite at that same level i'm not wanting any harm for anybody i want everybody to be happy and that's another aspect of my life that i think i need to also realize i can't always be the nice guy or make other people happy and i am a people pleaser i guess like i'm not the writer of my own life and i kind of fall in this logic of pleasing mm-hmm and wanting others to be happy you think you should pursue her or you should set her free in our relationship here yeah i think there's still questions of our alignment right for me i want to live a different life that is aligned with the way she is and operates but then there's other things that i'm like well i think we look at life a little differently and like she said i've been introduced to all her friends and it seems like wow i haven't introduced her my friends really but it's very different like i don't really see my friends often and i don't have the type of community that she creates i don't share a lot of my life do you ever voluntarily just tell something not or do you wait for questions i usually she already answered i just saw her head shake yeah yeah it's usually questions right and that's something where i'm not sharing much i keep everything super close i don't know i i can't what's it like to listen to him right now um i mean i i know all of this yeah i can tell he has a lot to say and also is having trouble answering the question that you ask well i asked if you are in your pleaser mode would you define her happiness as i pursue you or would you define her happiness as setting her free and he answered pretty much the way you would expect he would answer i have a little of this and a little of that yeah right down the middle and basically i don't know and basically maybe those are not decisions i make in my life they're made for me yes like even taking the breaks i am always the one to make the decision and if i would just be happy to carry on like that he would never choose to end things even if it seemed really bad or uncomfortable for me so this puts you in a place where you have to take autonomy all the way yeah like i have clear boundaries and my boundary around being a transparent person parent part of the life of the people that I love is a boundary for me at this point and like on our last break I said something very simple once you feel like your life is in a state where you could have a photograph of me in your condo that you don't have to take down every time somebody comes over then that's when we can get back together and talk about how we move forward because to me that would mean that I'm a transparent part of his life that can be seen of course I continuously sense that she doesn't give herself the permission to experience the sadness and the vulnerability that is inherent in what she really would like with him when I hear her talk about wanting just her picture on the wall it I I I I I I actually become sad because it's like is that all you want it's very small this little picture and at the same time I feel the deprivation I feel the sense that regardless of the anarchy there is a desire to be integrated to be seen to be known by others not to be hidden not to be somebody's secret and that all of this is very painful and also angry making so it comes out in the discourse of polyamory rather than in the plight of her heart given that you practice relational anarchy is it hard to end you feel like you should be able to bend to anything you should be pliable flexible understanding empathic his therapist his lover I broke my heart to accept the fact that my partner had these monogamous relationships that were complete erasure of me and that that should be okay from a relationship anarchy perspective right like consenting adults choosing to interact in a way that makes sense for them and that's right for them I tried but then I how much of a pretzel did you become a very very tight pretzel okay and I realized that it's not a healthy relationship format that I can be in and I don't believe it's healthy for anybody I think he recognizes the work he has to do on being more open and honest and living proper poly and when your other relationships require you to hide everything you can't even learn or exercise that or even try to be different but then I felt horrible being like you have to end these other relationships to be with me because that also felt outside of relationship anarchy right or like an ultimatum but then I I just realized at this point it's holding my boundary like both can't exist in a healthy way you wanted him to end them or you asked him to let them know that he's not just sleeping with other women that he actually is two years with you how many years with the other four years with us together but I would say two years that we've been okay so you have four years and the other two is one is eight years and one is three okay so you're loyal you don't commit but you stick around you get attached to in your way yeah in your way I mean the thing is like there's nothing bad in these relationships like really there's not the only challenge really is this is living that super honest life which I also want for myself I'm tired of hiding I'm good at it but I also can't wait to be free of that and actually live with intention so when you made the agreement with her that you would come out and be transparent what happened when you thought about not ending but just letting them know that I live in a triad primarily yeah it's a very tough thing for me to be super vulnerable in that way I think I always think of this very negative reaction but they will be affected by what I say and if I tell my long girlfriend of eight years that I actually have other women that I'm in a relationship with she will feel that what I lied to her yeah everything looked fine but it wasn't yeah she told me I could be sexual with other people but she told me keep your feelings for me and all that time I didn't yeah is it that so I would be hurting her yeah but even now like I've finally gotten some good therapy to look at my own boundaries and I am having those breakup conversations now because I know that it's unfair to them and I know that it's not a workable thing for me and I'm going through those stages right now and you're going through these conversations with the person or in your head no for sure and what's it been like to taste a very different way of being in the world feels good to be more honest for sure but it also still has that visceral reaction that I'm destroying somebody you know there's not not what I want to do and seem for her it's okay that's the vulnerability sometimes it hurts it hurts to lie and it hurts to say the truth not what I want to do and seem for her it's okay that's the vulnerability sometimes it hurts it hurts to say the truth and to be under such surveillance made him understand that the mechanism for survival was for nobody to know anything that would endanger him I don't know the details of what he means when he describes himself as the double agent for example but I do understand that this is not just a basic skills training about how to become more honest and more forthcoming this is a complete transformation of his entire psyche being and survival system we have to take a brief break stay with us on any journey using uber it helps to know you're getting into the right car pin verification adds an extra step to make sure your ride is your ride before the trip begins your app gives you a unique pin just tell it to your driver and they'll enter it in their app before the ride can start hey what's your pin 2538 that way you know you're in the right car taking the right trip and your driver knows you're the right 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Yeah, I've been clear that the hardest thing for me is feeling like a secret. Yeah. It makes you feel like almost a mistress, Yeah. it makes you feel like almost a mistress, but I'm not, and I'm not doing anything wrong. And I didn't ever say, "Please break up with these people." But I did say, "Please be open and honest." And I said, "Here's a lot of resources." Like, "Here's all the intro to poly resources." Like, "Maybe share these." But I also understand if people aren't coming from that mentality, that, you know, you kind of have to want to do that. So, but that would have been my approach. And it just got to the point where I don't see a path forward other than, us almost starting over from a place of no secrecy. And I know it's probably hard to imagine what our connection is like based on what we're saying here. But honestly, when we're out in the world, and when we're traveling, and when we're with our community, I've almost never experienced anything like it. Like, we're so similar, and it's so incredible. And we have the most fun, and there's so much love. So, I think it makes it more like the pain of that not existing in between those moments is just something I can't make work anymore. For me, your whole life is spent managing these secret relationships and not necessarily even making time for one-on-one time for us. What makes you a better person? I think it's the fact that I'm able to live in this situation, which is rationally completely outside of the values and the principles that you have chosen. Again, um. Yeah, you're going to tell me the specialness of our connection. And then that's your circling around. I think it's beautiful. I'm not, for a moment, minimizing. But it doesn't give you an out, either. It's like, but it's so special, but it's so unique, but what we have is so incredible. And then I can't take it anymore. Yeah. And then I take a break, and then I loosen my muscles, and then I get back into the ring. And then it's so beautiful. And then how could I ever give up? Give up on something like this, and then is how could I ever continue to tolerate something like this? So now you start to be in a betrayal of yourself, not just his betrayal of you. So, yeah, I learned a lot about where he came from and what he's been through, and I have incredibly deep empathy for him. And it helps me contextualize what he does, and it helps me understand it. And sometimes knowledge comes to a detriment to yourself, I guess, because I know how much good there is in him, and I understand why it's so difficult. And so I make a lot of space for that. And I think that's just what love is. And then you reach the point where your love for him becomes degrading of you. Yeah. Change the word. The word didn't sit well with you. No. It just never sees me. No matter how much I try. No matter how much empathy and space I give, I just realize maybe I'll never be seen in that way. I mean, I do see you. I just am not necessarily super forthcoming. I'm not very vocal on emotions. When we're apart, it's not that I don't see you anymore and it shuts off for me. I will think of you often. I don't operate the way a lot of people do. Where they like think of somebody or see something and then immediately messaging that person. I know that's a normal thing, but it's not that I don't love you or see you. It's I don't know how to change. I've become more aware of what I'm doing. Because you're bringing it back on you. And then every time you rope her into this empathic attunement of your situation, it's like, if you can, stay with her for a moment. Yeah, I mean, I'm mainly trying to say I understand where. So that's a short sentence. You can say it in one sentence, too. Yeah. You know, I know it's coming back to me, but I'm also trying to give us a chance to move forward in the right way. And I've never. Had more tough conversations. I know you're not there, so you don't see it. But it's tough because on the other side, there's other people that don't want things to end or change. I know, but you have a choice of your life, right? I know. If you need to change a situation with a partner, you have full autonomy. For sure. To make that choice, it's for yourself. And as I said, like eight years, a long time of somebody being in my life. And I've had two full on breakup conversations that are so. So hard, that are so out of my norm. I know there's no easy way, and I have to do it the hard way. Do you wish that she would understand that more? For sure. How hard it is to have these conversations, how much you are hurting people you care about deeply. For sure, yeah. You get a lot of understanding for your past, but you also live in the present. And you can ask for some understanding about the challenges. Even if it's late, even if it's after years, whatever. Because you've so presented it as they're monogamous, and I am just the one floating through. That to acknowledge that these breakups, which have been the most steady relationships in your life, are tearing you apart. Yeah, but I also take responsibility of my action to it, you know? Correct. And I feel terrible, like. Correct. And you can judge yourself a little bit, and you can also acknowledge your feelings about it, not one wipes out the other. I realize this is an area I have not been able to be kind or empathetic around, how hard this would be. And I think in an unfair way, I just say that I would never be in this situation, so I can't understand it. But I hear that if I'm so understanding about the past, I also need to be understanding about the present. And I haven't been, probably more because the present does seem to directly affect me. So it's a really hard balance to strike, I think, and I am sorry for that. I wish I could take back time to be super honest. I mean, even in. The breakup of 8 years, I mean, from when we first were talking, I hadn't met other people, really, that were living that way and living truth, like, I had no examples of that. So a lot has changed in understanding how to do it, at least open honesty, not hurting anybody, and I know I'm hurting people, I know that that's happening, and I'm at a breaking point. But I'm at a breaking point, too, that I don't want to do that anymore for my life. But the other side is also. It's a big loss as well. it's a loss for me like these are friends that won't be friends so I lose real people that's not just so simple as yeah you're not happy like well I am actually kind of happy there's nothing wrong they treat me well I treat them well it's just that it is not aligned with how I should live and I shouldn't be secretive and what you're saying now have you said to her before yeah the part about your loss yeah yeah we've we have talked about that and I I think it's really just hard for me to understand what those relationships could be like and what those relationships add to his life to be honest all I see is him move through the world in a very open authentic beautiful way with me and my friends and all I can picture is a completely different person when he's with these other people that everything else is hidden from and you know they don't go on adventures and they don't travel and they don't like it's just hard for me to understand and conceptualize do you ask uh yeah I've asked what he gets from these relationships and that's that's not a question oh because you already have decided that it's inferior to what he has with you it's not a real question that's fair I don't ask in a curious way yeah so here's the collusion you don't really ask because a part of you wants to think that what you have is so special how could he say no to that and he doesn't really tell you because until now he has pretended that none of this was that important yes so here's a moment of change you know it's not just it's hard for them it's hard for them it's hard for them to say no to that and it's hard for them to say no to that for you too to say goodbye or to explain why this has to change or to explain that these beautiful relationships have existed also shrouded in secrecy and while you offer travel maybe they offer a cocoon you offer adventure they offer something else I don't know but I have a sense that there is a lot more that you could tell about it but you've had an investment in making them look like they were nothing so that she wouldn't have to worry about it so there's a collusion of misrepresentation of what means what and what matters and doesn't yeah and there's comfortability habits it does bring cocoon I guess or a comfort to life it's like a stable thing for me which I didn't have obviously growing up I know that's a part of a need and want that I I have like taken care of and you know even if it's making food things like that like there are comforts of life I assume that in your therapy you are connecting those dots yeah but in all honesty I'm like working through trying to change my situations more so than I am there like that's all I I went in with and that's all I talk about almost but you have put a lot of emphasis on honesty and transparency and secrecy and what I'm sensing throughout our conversation today is that there is a whole other emphasis on loss on the burden of caretaking on feeling incredible responsibility on wondering who is there for you on aloneness and on creating relationships that become safe harbors where somebody cooks for you so that it becomes more layered why they feel like a root canal to have to end and why on some level it's not they have nothing to do with your relationship right now it does and it doesn't I think what's hard for me is that I want to be a safe harbor for you and I think I offer you that comfort and doing things for you and not just the community but like one-on-one like I do truly believe that we want to be a safe harbor for you and I think I offer you that comfort and doing things I want the same thing and I recognize the barrier and how hard this is for you but that like puts me back in like I don't know what to do with that because it's a it's a pretty tough boundary for me again so even if I can understand how hard it is for you to change your dynamics with these other individuals like can I change my boundary and like I've tried and now I'm back in a pretzel in my head of like why can't I just let this all work for me like I feel like I'm right back there I saw the loop I see the circle I see the the making of the pretzel if you want and yes there is also a place at which you say love him love some of what we have special you unique love story but maybe reached its limit in terms of life story to me that is a boundary the people that we can deeply love and then the question is can we make a life with them whatever the style of life you choose more pressure you can't put that's one thing you know for fact because he's not doing this for you but he has been watching you and he wants something else for himself and that demands the disentangling from very deep meaningful relationships that are way more meaningful than he has actually allowed himself to even know so it's in the moment of saying goodbye that he realizes what they have meant for him not just the hurting of the other person but also the loss for himself you can say I will be there with you and I will accompany you through this process or I will let you go through this process by yourself and I will continue with my life and the door is open I do want to be there for him and I do want to be there for you but if I'm also the one that's being affected can I do both you know where do we begin again do we begin again I do feel like we're back in our circle we're stuck you know I know all these things I know where it comes from I want the relationship but while he's going through this and figuring out if he can actually live in a polyamorous lifestyle where do I put myself in his life can I be there can we plan things together can we do things together or does this require a full separation and then when do you come back together it's very much what happens when we talk we kind of circle it's a difficult situation because we both love each other and want to spend time together and be the partners we can be when we're together but there's other things that are not aligned right now so it's the draw of us being us again I don't think that it's going to be a joint decision I think that it's going to be a joint decision I think that this is a situation where you make a decision for yourself and you may be in agreement about it but it's not we have come to the conclusion together that it is in your best interest to have this transparency be immediate and it is not his you operate from a place of a chosen set of values yeah and a certain design for your life and a certain conception of relationships if I listen to you I know you mentioned those words to those women early on but I don't think that your lifestyle has much to do with poly nothing you're using poly because it's an acceptable word for multiple partners multiple love stories But in fact, your whole thing is way more internal than lifestyle it may change yeah but that is not from everything you describe what I see you having done yeah oh I recognize for sure I said that so that's where the misalignment you're using a vocabulary that is not a joint vocabulary yeah well I said I'm not I haven't practiced poly I said it but I haven't been active but you've practiced something else and that something else is way more intricate there's a whole psychological infrastructure about what you have done to just think it wasn't poly because it wasn't transparent because of all it's true it's all there too but what you have put in place and what you're trying to dismantle is an infrastructure that has very little to do with polyamory it doesn't necessarily even have to do with secrecy that's the mechanism the compartmentalizing the evasiveness and the way the entire thing is set up you know if you ask I answer but since you didn't ask I didn't really need to tell and then evasive is a very powerful dynamic and at the same time the relationships are deeply meaningful but you you're looking at an infrastructure of values and lifestyle and accountability and responsibility and transparency and all these things and that is on its way but it has not been there there will be loss for both of you there will be attempts to come back because who wants to leave something good and it won't be perfect and it won't feel certain and it will ache and you will wonder why the hell did it have to be this way and should you have been more patient and more flexible and more anarchic and then you'll have to accept that you had limits which goes against your grain because you think you should be able to be beyond all limits and accommodating in every arrangement and this is kind of the place where you meet is that his relationships are more meaningful to him than he has allowed himself ever to feel and that your limits are more real than you have allowed yourself to feel it's a place where both of you say whatever flows isn't necessarily always the right thing for me but you will find a way out of the loop when you accept that you too have knows that you have limits that you have things that you don't want to live with and you know monogamous people exclusive people sometimes are challenged to admit that they have thoughts fantasies explorations beyond the limits that they live in but poly people sometimes have the challenge of admitting that full-on openness exploration everything goes everything needs to be understood every feeling needs to be managed it's sometimes also not what suits every person does any of this reach you it does I mean you just described what kind of we go through when we break up it just hasn't stuck when you make the decision you won't feel sure you will question yourself it's important that you not think these decisions are made with certainty I know that I mean that's what I've already been in right okay and he will try to help you stay no no you won't say it you won't say stay but you will say what you said today which melts her heart so grief lives in that space and the more you grieve the more you know you loved I've already grieved us a lot I know but you also put him an ultimatum he didn't meet the ultimatum then you had to follow through on your decision then you thought is there another stone unturned and sometimes I have nothing to say that you don't know already I think today is one of those and I think it is just what it is it is frustrating and it is disappointing and those are two good words to describe our relationship arc where do I leave you talking to me yeah I don't know I mean I have to make my own decisions too and it's quite different I'm the one making the decisions on those other sides and in this position I'm not making the decision here I can respect that recognize that and it could be a complete restart for me too to go forward in a much better way but is there an avenue that we can be in each other's lives that looks differently where our care and love for each other just doesn't go by the wayside and we still care for each other we still love each other what can something else look like you know what something else looks like is that you are now friends and therefore when she calls you in an emergency you do not have to worry about answering the phone and then you will pick up and then you will show up you are more likely to be able to show your depth of affection and love and care for her potentially in the framework of friends than in the framework of partners see but that's the crazy thing is we've had that conversation and the level of compartmentalization doesn't allow that even as a friend really yes oh okay then I take it back the compartmentalization doesn't allow for a deep friendship anymore than it allows for a partnership then you have your answer and that's the problem then you have your answer in the beginning of the session he said I never write my own story at the end of the session it becomes clear that she will have to make the decision for where the story goes this will not be a joint decision this will be hers because he can go on like this he has begun a process of dismantling and rebuilding but they're not at all in the same place and paradoxically while he carries the secrecy we know a lot more about him while she carries the transparency we actually don't know as much we know the predicament that she's in at this moment and the aching that she feels but we don't necessarily know what predisposes her to find herself in the most paradoxical situation meaning she's experiencing the one thing she built an entire system to prevent and my frustration at the end of this session is that there was only one session of the show that was a little too long to be a good one for me to do so I'm going to go ahead and end it here but I'm going to end it here and I'll see you in the next episode of the podcast. Thank you for watching. I'll see you next time. Bye. Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul. Starbucks. You can find your favorite taste of fall only at Starbucks.