I Confront The Secretary of Energy On UFOs

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Same secrecy. I believe nuclear secrecy was used as a Trojan horse for UFO secrecy. The Manhattan Project would have custody of it, and then it would go into the Atomic Energy Commission, and then it would go into the Department of Energy, which has its own line of clearances. And that makes sense. UFOs have shown up at nuclear weapons installations and civilian energy grids for the last 80 years. Countless witnesses have reported UFOs hovering around nuclear sites since the '40s, before we had drones or reconnaissance planes. And thousands of military and intelligence reports have documented this connection. From Roswell, New Mexico, in 1947, the site of the largest nuclear stockpile to date, to Fukushima, Japan, to Chernobyl and Ukraine, the connection between nuclear and UFOs is global and ubiquitous. But the person we're about to interview isn't just any secretary of state. The person we're about to interview isn't just any secretary of state. He was one of Ronald Reagan's closest advisers throughout his career. And the reason I really wanted to interview him is that there has been a story circulating about him by a friend of the show and former American alchemist, Brent Friedman. Here's how that story goes. I grew up next to a guy that I revered. A guy named John Harrington, his wife Lois, his two daughters, I'm not going to name them. And I mean, we literally live right next room. There was like one gate between us. John was a man's man. John taught me how to throw a football, got me into football, like just all these things. And he was like a surrogate father to me. Cut to six years later, he calls me up. He goes, listen, I got a new job. I'm back east now. I'd like you to drive our cars across the country. That night when he comes home, all of a sudden a black Lincoln Town car pulls up and he gets out of the backseat and there's two Secret Service people that come in. And I notice he has a briefcase handcuffed to his wrist. They walk him into the house and they go back. I'm kind of watching from a distance. He puts it into a wall safe, a distance. And one of the Secret Service people leaves and the other one stays in the house. I'm thinking, who is this guy? And then afterwards, he's like, hey, why don't you and I go out onto the veranda and catch up? I'm sitting there talking with him. We're catching up and I'm like, OK, all of that's great. What is your job? And he goes, I can't really talk about it. You know, I'm working for the government. It's classified. And I said, OK, well, I don't know, what does that even mean? And he goes, look, I have a higher clearance level than the president. So how did you get that job? And he said, well, I was briefed for months in an underground facility in West Virginia. And I said, what, what was that like? And he said, well, I used to cry myself to sleep every night. So I said, well, I don't what what would make you cry yourself to sleep? And he goes, Brent, this is not the world I thought I was bringing my daughters into. And so I pressed one and he kept saying, I can't talk about that. I can't talk about it. This is like classified information. And finally, after he'd had a couple of drinks, he said, all right, look, I can tell you this aliens are real. They're here and I've seen them. Then I came back at him with, OK, well, hold on a second. If what you're saying is true, how does everyone not know about it? And he said, oh, lots of people know about it. Eighty one. You could walk into any bookstore and you're going to find all sorts of books on the shelves with lots of truth. But right next to them are the books that we publish full of propaganda. It's a multibillion dollar campaign to cover up the truth. They're real, Mr. Harrington. They've been here a long time. So I needed to speak to John Harrington myself. Luckily, his grandson, shout out David, was a fan of the show, knowing that this would be an uphill battle, but also a historic interview. And it's one that I hope body language experts analyze very closely. Because we were down at Greenbrier. I think it was Greenbrier. John clearly didn't want to break any security oaths, something I don't blame him for. Do you know about the National Underwater Reconnaissance Office? No. OK, that's public now. It's is it? Yeah. There's so much about the bottom of the ocean that we don't know. It seems like they might be finding things on the seafloor. Yeah, they are kind of exotic and anything they want. Did you ever work with Bobby Ray Inman guy? He was deputy director of the CIA at the same time. No, we still see each other. He's up at the Bohemian Grove. Do you think there are any elements of the government that systematically study this stuff, UFOs? Yeah, the government does crazy stuff everywhere. Did you ever know a guy named Harold Malmgren by any chance? Yeah, in one of our briefings at the Energy Department. Wow. Jesse, this goes back decades. If I told you there is an airplane powered by nuclear power sitting in a hangar in Idaho Falls, would you believe me? It's yeah, I don't know. Do you think that that's possible? It is. It's true. I know there are projects that are so secretive that there are great efforts to keep them classified. Without further ado, this week's historic American Alchemy episode with former secretary of energy, John Harrington. Ignition sequence 5. How is this possible? Nothing too unusual about that. Their existence cannot longer be denied. I moved to Austin a couple of years ago, and one of the things that nobody mentions about moving is that you lose your doctor. You've spent years finding someone you trust, and now you're in a city where you don't know a single practice and you don't have anyone to ask. So you do what most people do, which is nothing for a long time. And it's the same problem every time I travel for this show. I'm in a new city practically every other month. And if something comes up, I've got no doctor there and no idea where to start. ZocDoc is sponsoring this episode, and I want to say a genuine thank you because this is exactly the problem they've solved. It's a free app and it works in all 50 states. You put in what kind of doctor you need and what insurance you've got. And it shows you everyone near you who actually takes it with real reviews from real patients so you can have all of the information at your fingertips and choose someone yourself. But you also see every doctor's open appointments and you can just book one straight from your phone. Most people get seen within 24 to 72 hours. That same day treatment is possible, which means the part that used to stop me, the Googling, the calling, the waiting to hear back isn't a step anymore. You browse and book in the same place. Whether I'm at home or on the road, I know I can get in front of a doctor when I need one. If you've moved or you travel or you just don't have a doctor lined up right now, you can fix that immediately with ZocDoc. So if you're ready to be seen, head to ZocDoc.com/JesseMichaels. Again, that's ZocDoc.com/JesseMichaels. Michael's with no A and check that appointment off your to do list. The links in the description. John, this is a total honor. I really appreciate you being here today. You were the fifth secretary of energy in the United States and you were also the assistant secretary of the Navy for Manpower and Reserve Affairs. You were a close Reagan adviser for for so many years. Your wife is here today. She's you guys are kind of a power couple. She also has an illustrious career in politics. And so, yeah, it's just an honor to be with you. I really appreciate you doing this. It's not every day that I get to speak to somebody of your caliber. Well, I'm a I'm a listener. I enjoy your show, so I'm pleased to be here. Absolutely. Well, I don't even know where to start. I mean, there's so many kind of touch points and jumping off points. But do you remember your first interaction with Reagan? First interaction? Yeah. Well, that would be Chicago. Do you remember what it was like meeting him? Well, he's a movie star. And you growing up in LA, you know, movie stars, I mean, there you hold them in a little bit of awe, but I had I had read a lot about him. And I had worked with the guys that worked with him. And he's he's very understanding and very easy to get along with. He's the same man in public as he is in private, which you can't say for a lot of the politicians. Do you feel like he was very not only personable, which is obvious from watching him, but high integrity and good to the people around him behind closed doors, not just kind of virtue signaling? He was. He was very good to everyone. If I had to look back on it, it was later during the building of the Reagan Library that we would say we're more friendly. But in the government of the United States, working in the White House and at the high level, you're not his friend. You're a staff, and you're working to carry out policies. And if you don't believe that, you ought to go home. I saw him mad a couple of times, but he'd be disappointed mad if something happened that he didn't think should happen. When the SDI people tried to undermine him on that, he was not happy about that. Yeah. He really believed that. He really believed in that SDI, and that was one of his major programs, getting that out. And the staff fought him on that. They had a lot of people in the government that did not want the Strategic Defense Initiative. And the Russians did not want it. Even his own Secretary of State was against it. And describe what the Strategic Defense Initiative is, again, to the average person. They know of it maybe as Star Wars. They think of it as some super science fiction, space lasers, you know, missile defense project, which it partly kind of was. But how would you describe it? Well, first of all, the president had been doing a lot of reading, a lot of thinking. And you need to get by the fact that some of the politicians and a lot of the press thought president was, you know, not smart. And he was nothing but an actor from Hollywood. Of course, his diaries have now been fully printed. I didn't know he was keeping a diary. So I started to think, well, I started reading some of the stuff in it that I was doing. And it's very accurate. And. What does he write about you? This was a private meeting in the residence one night. And I'd rather not talk about that. Okay. I'm not going to write a book. Okay. But it's out there for anyone. It's in the diary. Okay. And you have a book that came out from the Hoover Institution called In His Own Hand. Okay. And what it is, it is absolutely. Absolutely proof that he wrote his own speeches. And of course, you have almost everybody in the government now claiming they did it, from one of the chief writers for the Wall Street Journal to a few others. They're all claiming they wrote the take down the wall, Mr. President speech. Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall. He put that. Peter Robinson thinks he. I met Peter Robinson. He's at the Hoover Institute in Stanford. And Peter is. You can take him to the bank. Peter is very good. But I think Peter Robinson said he wrote that speech for Reagan. Okay. Now, here's what happened. Okay. The staff took it out of the speech, not once, but twice. And so driving to the wall, the advanced man that was with him is a close friend of mine. The president put it back in again. Okay. Okay. Mr. If you really believe in freedom, or whatever it was. Wow. And they thought that was too controversial. So now we're going to go to SDI. Yeah. And he said, look, wouldn't it be wonderful at a cabinet meeting if we could design something that would protect us from missiles? And at that time, the United States had a policy with Russia called mutual assured destruction. What that meant was if they launch a missile, we will launch a missile. And if we launch one, they will launch one. Mutual assured destruction was our policy. It's crazy. If you'd had that with Iran today and they had missiles, we would have both been blown off the face of the earth. So this was a new way of looking at it. He said, wouldn't it be wonderful if we could have this system that would keep the missiles on a shield. They could never get to us. And then he said, I would be willing as president to share that. I would be willing to share that system with any country that wanted it. I would let the Russians have the system, but it was expensive system. So it was kind of a surprise. The Pentagon was not quite ready for it. The Air Force was tasked to come up with ways to do it. Livermore Laboratory was a part of it. You had some of the best scientists in the United States trying to figure out how to do it. One of the ones I liked the best, was developed at Livermore. They would cause a nuclear explosion to go off in space. And they would focus the energy from that through a lens about the size of your thumbnail. And they claimed they could hit a silver dollar at 500 miles and disintegrate it. Jesus. I know. That's nuts. Now, that one did not get to the top of the list because the whole idea of firing nuclear power in space or a nuclear explosion was not going to sell, obviously. So they worked in other ways, ground-based lasers, space-based lasers, and a lot of progress has been made in that. And it was called the Strategic Defense Initiative. The press panned it. Democrats panned it. Everybody called it Star Wars after the movie. And they said it was crazy. Well, here we are doing it. The Global Dome, the Iron Dome, these are all coming into fruition now. The Golden Dome in the U.S., exactly. Golden Dome. Yeah, it's interesting. I think a lot of people also thought of it as a kind of way to bankrupt the Soviets or like make them chase us or something. It was. Yeah. That ended the Cold War. Yeah. There's some interesting in it. You know about the Excalibur designs from Edward Teller? Yes. Sort of X-ray based blasts that would take- Well, Teller sat on my couch with me one afternoon. He was also a proponent of the one I just described. And he had brought a lens to show me and how he was going to do it, but he was going to propel it with the explosion. Excalibur, Teller was an amazing man. He's the guy that figured out that if you inject certain elements into a nuclear explosion, you can turn it into a hydrogen explosion. Wow. He was a junior scientist. He was a junior scientist at the Manhattan Project, but he's the guy that came up with the idea. Yeah. The Teller-Ulam design for the hydrogen bomb. He had fights with Oppenheimer because Oppenheimer was like, this is too big for any target. I know. He sort of ended up winning out. And what was Ed Teller like? What were your interactions with him like? Well, I was in awe. I mean, I didn't give him my view on the world. I sat and listened to him. There were just the two of us sitting on the couch in the energy department. He had a big cane. And he had the lens, and he has a thick German accent. Older guy. And going to great lengths to explain how this is going to work. I would love to hear stories of the Manhattan Project and everything, but I didn't get into that. We spent about 45 minutes, I think. Were there anything outside of traditional nuclear that he talked about that was interesting? No. Okay. He's all business. Okay. Cool. He's all business. And we didn't get into the weapons part of it at all. SDI was the only thing we got into. Uh-huh. I want to bring up UFOs. As you know, I have a show that covers UFOs and kind of nature of reality. And Edward Teller's a great segue because his name is actually on a document from 1949, and it's this green fireball problem. And it's him and Lincoln LaPaz, who's a meteor expert at the University of New Mexico. And a bunch of these kinds of things. And he's a great expert. of head honchos in the military meeting you know on this recorded document at los alamos and they're trying to figure out ufos and this has now been you know let out by the white house in their pursue act and simultaneous to that you have um directors of national intelligence like james clapper you have you know that's not a name i respect fair enough yeah no i have issues with him too uh john brennan also mixed bag but you know a lot of these likewise cia for sure but a lot of these kind of head honchos at the cia saying you know this is real this is a real issue so you know consider me a strange bedfellow with with some of these people but you know i i think we have so much evidence that these things seem to show up around our nuclear sites what do you think and did you experience anything while you were uh secretary of state of energy around this well we got a lot of rumors about what was happening in area 51 which is a very highly classified area with a lot of projects that are highly classified going on primarily defense related um nothing about ufos um and honestly i did not during the time i was there come across anything in our budgets or in our um programs that would lead me to have any knowledge in the ufo area on the other hand i am i am not blind to what i see on television with these navy gun cameras that are picking up off San Diego, the thing traveling at warp speed, diving into the ocean. I frankly, Jesse, I don't know what they are. I don't know where they're coming from. My guess is the amount of power to send somebody with that kind of propulsion is not within our capability. And it's not within the capability of any country that I know of. You talk about the hypersonic missiles in China and things like that. This is so far above that. They talk about Navy running into certain things and submarines. Those are probably whales. But those gun camera films, they are not faked. In my estimation, the Navy would not do something like that. So there's something you're seeing. Does it come from somewhere else? I don't have an idea. I'm a practicing Christian. I believe strongly in the book of Genesis, that God created the earth and everything in it. If we have people coming from other planets, it puts a hole in my beliefs a little bit. Why does it? Well, first of all, it would just be sort of, and I think they call it non-human intelligence is the kind of more official Pentagon nomenclature now. Because it's not necessarily extraterrestrial. I think it's just consciousness that seems to transcend humans. It seems like they're more advanced than us, which is itself fascinating, but I think that's wholly consistent with biblical texts. Well, it depends. I'm listening to these people that know so much about it. They all say, I really know about it. It's really real. It's really real. They won't tell you what they've seen and they won't tell you who they've talked to. So, and I am. I'm now beginning to think we got a Fauci syndrome underway in some of the area you're working. I watched one of your guys. Anything online makes sense. Check responses, setup required, compatibility, and availability varies 18 plus. Sit here, who I know, and I talked to you about this, who absolutely fabricated a total story. So tell the audience what you're talking about. You had a guy interviewed who used to be a neighbor of ours in Walnut Creek. Yeah. And we hired him to drive our car to Washington. He then claims that he saw me. What's his name real quick? Brant Freeman. Okay. He said that I came home after he arrived in Washington, and I had been to a secret place. I carried a briefcase chained to my wrist. I had a driver and a limousine. You got to understand, I arrived in Washington as a peon. We didn't have briefcases chained. We didn't have limousines. We didn't have security. We didn't go to secret places. I was working in the White House at a lower level. So that's all of I. And then I told him that I'd been locked away for a month, and I'd seen people from another place. It's just total BS. He says I was like a father to him. I never even knew this kid except as a baby next door. So it was all made up. What elements of the story aren't true? Because did he drive across the country? He drove across with two other friends. We had to move our cars to Washington because I was going back to live there, and I had an appointment in the administration. And I think they drove, and our dog was in the car too. I knew he was in the car. I was a student at UCLA. It was interesting because my mother went to UCLA, and I always like to meet UCLA people. He said his father's an artist. That's true. His mother was living next door. We knew the father and the mother. I did not know Brant. He says he came over, and we threw the football together. That didn't happen. We watched television together. We didn't happen. We had no get-along at all. I was kind of a father figure to him. That didn't happen. But we did get his name because we were looking for some guys to drive the car. So he agreed to do it, and we paid him, and they came back, and that was the end of it. I was not working at the White House at the time he came back. I had a very lowly position. I didn't have a briefcase with a handcuff to my wrist. I didn't have a limousine. I didn't have security. All that came much later. I didn't go to any kind of secret site. I was working in personnel. We were viewing resumes for positions in the government. Had nothing to do with something like that. Never saw him again. So, and at the time, you were Assistant Secretary of the Navy for Manpower and Reserve Affairs? No, no, I was— Or you were at White House personnel? No, I was one step below that. I was working in the White House political office for Lyndon Ossinger as an intern for him, and we were going through early stages of the Reagan administration. It was later that I came in. As personnel department, and I wasn't the head of it. What year was that? It would be June of 81. 81. So that was after Brent had come? Right. Okay. And he said something about an underground facility in West Virginia? Well, there is. There is a hotel down there. It's been put out of service now, but it's been built under Eisenhower. I forget which hotel it is. Something Springs. I think it's where Roosevelt died. I'm not sure. I thought it was Greenbrier, maybe? It could be Greenbrier. But they have a huge underground facility where the Congress and the President were all to be put to run the government. The bunker is basically a giant concrete box that has two foot thick concrete walls reinforced with steel all the way around it. It's buried under 20 feet of earth. It took 50,000 tons of concrete to build it all. And it was later when I was Secretary of Energy, I got to see that because we were down at Greenbrier, I think it was Greenbrier, playing golf. And I went and toured that thing. And by that time, Greenbrier had been moved up to Maryland and a facility in Maryland, which was the same. And of course, they have that facility was during the 80s. And they have a system to remove people to preserve the government. I was number 16. I remember because my daughter sewed a big 16 on the back of my swimsuit. And so you're the 16th person to be moved if they kill everybody above you. So it's a facility they do have. And I'm sure since 1990, they have improved that a lot. And I'm beginning to think there's going to be a lot of that under the ballroom at the White House because that's a vast system they're building under there. So you have been there a couple of times in your career, once in the 80s and once in the 90s? No, not once in the 90s. I went to the Greenbrier, it would be 86 probably, 87. Got it. So this was after, you'd never, had you ever been before the Brent experience? Never. Interesting. Or anything even like it. Okay. I'm going to get some flack if I, if I don't offer this, would we be able to maybe patch in Brent and you could clear up the story and tell them, you know. I'm through with Brent. And he's a, he's a young man that's fallen in love with Hollywood and he's got the fallacy syndrome and he's, you know, he's welcome to it. You don't want to talk to him? No, not really. Okay. Fair enough. Yeah. I don't know. It's a bummer because he, he seemed. I hope he sees the interview and realizes what an idiot he's been. Oh, well, he seems kind of earnest, you know, he doesn't seem like. Yeah, he does, doesn't he? Yeah. So, so his story's just. Total and complete BS. Brent, thank you for being here, man. I just did this long interview with John and he actually brought you up. And he was like, you know, that story is totally made up. And he said he only knew you as a baby said he sort of, you know, created some distance said that, like, you wouldn't come over and play football with him. How does it make you feel just him kind of denying the thing outright? Two ways. The first way is the obvious, which is disappointment that after all of these years and contextually with disclosure coming out and a lot of people. Feeling compelled to tell the truth. A lot of whistleblowers are putting their, their, their, their reputation and maybe in some cases their life on the line for this greater good to get the truth out there, you know, and honestly, you know, it's not true. John taught me how to play football. My father was an artist. He was an introvert. Um, John not only taught me to play football, he got me inspired in football. I was growing up to be an artist and I ended up playing football all through. Uh, grade school, junior high, uh, high school, because he took the time to teach me how to play football. And we used to watch football games on, in his living room. He was a huge Redskin fan. He also taught me to be competitive. So I became a Cowboys fan. I am still a Cowboys fan irrationally. I grew up in California, but it was great to just sit there and be competitive with him on the sofa. So I, yeah, he can stiff arm me if he wants, but that was our relationship. And that's why I'm here. That's why I've said in different interviews and on sound light and frequency that he was like a second father to me. I didn't, I was much more than a baby. I lived there next door to him between the ages of six and 12, the formative years. On the other hand, I do have to respect the fact that at the end of our conversation that I had with him that night out on the veranda, I kind of took all of what he said in, and I said to him, you know, I'm not going to tell other people about this. And he said, well, I'm sure you are. The question is, who's going to believe you? And I didn't really think anything of it at the time. And he said, and by the way, if you use my name and everything, I'm just going to deny it. When was this exact interaction transpired? 1981, right? Yes. The summer of 1981 was when I was, had graduated high school and I was then going to go off to college at UCLA. And what was John Harrington's exact position then? I believe it was something to the effect of he was on special assignment for the president. What I heard later through my mom was that he was involved in the AB scam investigation and had been for a period even leading up to after the election in November and before the administration took over. He was somehow involved in that. But that was as much as we knew. And he didn't tell me when we were talking anything about what he was doing actively. He only told me about this briefing experience he had. There were two things that John said that, you know, aside from this idea that he used, he told me he cried himself to sleep every night. Like that's the kind of the pull quote from that interview. Like, why would a guy at that level be crying himself to sleep every night? It was certainly profound for me because I looked at him as a man's man. Like, so him crying at all seemed odd. I assumed he was unburdening himself. I assumed that being the man he was, he would not burden himself. His wife and daughters with this truth. But I could see that physically it was a huge burden on him. He had physically looked very haggard. And so, but when he told me all about the alien stuff, I said to him at the end, I said, well, okay, now I think I understand why you were crying yourself to sleep every night. And he goes, no, Brent, you don't understand. That was like day three. The implication being is that his briefing took months and, and this was almost trivial to him. This was like him throwing me a bone. And so the alien thing is, is feels like, like a footnote in whatever is kind of going on. I mean, it's certainly a piece of the puzzle, but we've come to understand on sound and frequency, there's something much bigger going on that has more to do with kind of Psy and ESP. And I think that's probably something more that would cause you to cry. Like the idea that reality is not at all what it seems. And there are beings that have access into our minds. And potentially that's unsettling that I could see if you're a parent, you might cry yourself to sleep every night, but not the idea. Oh, we have some bodies in a hangar somewhere. That's, that's not tear worthy in my mind. And he said, look, we live in a God fearing country again, 1981. There are only one thing that keeps this world spinning, gives everybody the control they need. That's the global economy. If you disrupt that by taking away the reason for people to live their lives, everything falls apart and governments of the world will not be able to control the populace. So what's the advantage of giving people the truth? And I was like, well, so you're telling me it'll never come out. He said, if it has to, as well in our lifetime, maybe. The one thing that's most obvious, and Jesse, you must know this yourself. You're all your. Many of your audience does. There are underground facilities in West Virginia, but we did not know about them until the Washington Post. I think it was the Post that broke this story in the 90s about Greenbrier Inn. And there's another one. And Greenbrier was where they're going to evacuate Congress in the event of nuclear war. So there was a place. But in 1981, nobody knew that. Do you think he was talking about Greenbrier? He didn't say. But again, he was talking about an underground facility in West Virginia. I only the only thing I knew about West Virginia was that it was west of Virginia. Like, I didn't know. What's funny is he he said he went to Greenbrier, but he said he went in 87. And he was like, yeah, it's just this continuity of government thing where, you know, there's an attack in D.C. Like, you know, that's where the president in Congress goes. Yeah. So, again, that story was laced with details. He talked about the global economy, how this would disrupt the global economy. He talked about it being a God fearing nation. I was never raised religiously. So even. That term God fearing nation. It didn't. I was like, I don't. I think I know what that means, but I'm not even quite sure. I don't need to get into a who shot John with a, you know, a 30 year old. No, I get it. It's the only thing that, you know, you just seem so high integrity and straight up. And then he's been very cool with me, too. And he seems very honest and earnest in his retelling. So I don't I get that. Obviously, he works in Hollywood, but he doesn't. I don't think he's like. monetizing his story with you. I thought they had a production company. I read somewhere that he and the guy that was with him on your show had a production company. I don't know exactly what they're doing, but I don't think they're monetizing this story. I think he just told a couple times on podcast. Any kind of public exposure. I don't care what you say about me. Just say something. That's what they used to believe. Yeah. Fair enough. Okay. I'll see if he'll go in front of Congress. I'm sure he would. I'm sure he'd happily go. Sure, he'd have to raise his right hand and swear. Yeah, I think he would. I think he would. That's the sense I get. That's getting in pretty deep at that point. I think a polygraph would be interesting. I think if you pass that, that would be awesome. And I don't know if. I'm willing to do. I mean, if people are that interested in whether this happened or not, I'm happy to do it. Have you made any substantial money off of the story? I mean, it's. We can have an offline talk about the economics of podcasting, but the amount of money that Bryce and I have made off of Sound, Light, and Frequency, which is really where the whole story was, you know, disclosed and monetized, as it were, is so far below what my daily rate is in Hollywood and in gaming that it's almost a joke. So, yes, I have been. very lightly compensated for some of my time, but this is not a money-making endeavor at all. It's more just. I've said this before, and I know this can sound disingenuous, but I sat on a lot of my stories, my personal stories, and certainly all of the details of this story until I had cancer and I almost died. And at that moment, when I was on my deathbed and watching light beings come to the foot of my bed, I had the sense that there was something I hadn't done and I just wasn't ready. And so all of that kind of doorway went away and I got better and here I am. And my kids said, in retrospect, thank God you didn't die because you have so many incredible stories and we would have been the ones telling them secondhand. Right? You should tell your stories while you're still. where you got a second chance. And I thought, you know what? I don't know if that's what I'm supposed to do, but that's what I'm going to do. And so, really, that was kind of the impetus for why I even agreed to do Sound, Light, and Frequency. But the point is, is that, you know, I told a few friends in college, and they kind of just thought it was a fun story. They didn't really believe me. I told people I was dating at some point and was getting serious with as kind of a litmus test. Like, okay, I'm going to tell you something now, and if you don't think I'm crazy, then maybe we have a future. But for the most part, people didn't believe me. The first person that really believed me was Bryce Sable when I told him, the story, and he said, well, I mostly believe you because this aligns with a lot of research I've done. See, here's the thing. I never used John Harrington's name until probably 2019 or 20 or something when Ross Coldheart got me on camera and just pushed me so hard that and he kind of already had known because Bryce had told him, and so he used, and I was like, I couldn't get out of it. So that was the first time that I used John Harrington's name on camera because it felt like, okay, well, now people know it's going to come out. But up until then, I was respectful. I told the story, but I didn't actually use his name until that point. Here's another little interesting data point. When the show was right before it was launching, kind of the week before it premiered, I got a buck slip from John Harrington. I hadn't talked with him in a number of years, but I remember those buck slips, the long vertical kind of like stiff cards, and it says from the desk of, I get one that says from the desk of John Harrington, hey Brent, you finally got your story out there. Congratulations. So he was. Did you save that? It's somewhere in my files. I don't know where it is. I got to find it because I can't imagine I would have thrown it away. My problem is I'm not an organized person, so I'm going to have to do some hunting. Part of me says too, I think time is on my side. With Disclosure coming out, how do I explain the fact that Dave Grush called me to get insight into how to talk to John Harrington? why would Dave Grush want to talk to John Harrington if John Harrington doesn't know anything? He said to me, the gist of it was, we've identified John Harrington as one, as a very important person who has oral history of a period where a bunch of documentation does not exist anymore. I don't mean to malign your next guest. Is it David Gersh? David Grush? Yeah. Yeah. What about him? So I turned on his testimony to the Senate and listened very carefully to it. He loved it. He was at the center of attention and he's telling them all this stuff by not telling them anything. And then afterwards, he's interviewed on the street by about 20 reporters and he's doing the same thing and he's loving it and he's the center of attention. I'm thinking to myself- So you're not a fan of his? He's having a good time. No, I talked to him on the phone. You did. You spoke to David Grush. I did. And I said, I respect his career. He's 20 years in the air. He's in the Air Force as an intelligence officer, but Washington is full of people who are looking to get into the mix and be recognized and- I don't think David Grush is a good example of that. I don't think he's very attention seeking. He's, you know, he handled the presidential daily brief and he was up for actually a big promotion. He's sort of got completely all these reprisals and kind of maligned in his career and ended up having to leave because of wanting to leave. Yeah. Yeah. More transparency on this issue. So I think he was on a pretty good track before this and I don't think it's done him any favors. All right. Well, I take it back calling him a Fauci, but I will say this. I would like David to tell me specifically what he saw and specifically who he talked to, not generalities. Yeah. No, I think a lot of people are waiting on that and would be very interested. Do you know what supposedly happened to those living reptilians from the crash? Deceased. They were killed. They were killed. So we killed them. Yeah. Whoa. They are mortal. So how did we kill them? Yeah. Did we shoot them? Yeah. We shot the reptilians. Yeah. Jesus. Yeah. So you felt like your conversations with him were, were they productive? No, he called, he wrote me a beautiful letter, long two page letter. Okay. And, uh, he asked if I would call him and I called him and we talked and I said, look, David, I, I don't know anything about UFOs. I can't add to your knowledge. I was approached last November by, um, a journalist formerly with, um, Politico then shizz shizzling or something to that effect. Um, and, uh, he said that he had heard my story going around about John Harrington and wanted to get my side of the story. And this was pre sound light and frequency. So I said, well, I'm going to tell my story in the podcast. So when that comes out, you'll hear it. I said, well, I'm going to tell my story in the podcast. So when that comes out, you'll have everything you need to know. And he said, okay, well, just so you understand, John says he doesn't even remember you. You, you might've been his neighbor. He has no recollection, but you never drove any cars across the country. And he certainly never talked to you about aliens. So did he publish that, that journalist? Uh, well, that journalist has reached back out to me because he is oddly coincidentally, um, this week or end of last week, he, suddenly decided the story was viable or vital. And he wanted to give me one last chance to kind of refute everything, uh, which I denied. But he said, uh, that John told him that he didn't even know you, or he didn't remember knowing you or what was the, he said he didn't, he didn't know me at all. The way that I claimed he, I might've been his neighbor. He, he really wasn't clear. He had no memory of that, but he, he completely denied driving the cars across the country. Um, so either his memory was coming back to him over time, uh, by the, between November of last year. And when he spoke to you, I don't know. Um, but I remember the impact of hearing that. I talked, I talked to my mom who always had stayed close with John and his particular, particularly his wife Lois and said, yeah, John said he didn't even remember us. And she, I mean, she honestly started crying. She was like the Herrington were some of our best friends. John threw me my 33rd birthday at his restaurant, Victoria's station. I have photos of it. And how much time elapsed between his first outreach to you and, you know, now, so it was November of like November last year, like November 23rd or something last year. And then, um, we exchanged texts kind of on and off over the holidays. And the last contact I had with him was January 3rd, I believe. And then, literally last week out of the blue, um, he suddenly felt this story had, uh, had juice. So almost a year went by and radio silence. And then all of a sudden pops back up when I happened to be interviewing John. Yeah. You think, you know, a browser, but Gemini and Chrome that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block, or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Ready to make anything online makes sense. Check responses, setup required compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. I don't, I mean, is that, uh, the phenomenon or is it something else? I don't know. I don't know. So, you know, nothing of any of these sort of like a, you know, reverse engineering or, uh, crash retrievals or. You know, I think the one that feels most ubiquitous to me is just UFOs showing up at nuclear sites all over the country. There's a great book called UFOs and Nukes. And you have 170 of these guys who are, you know, missile security, radar operators. They're super honest guys. And they don't get into that job to be famous. And they come out and they say, they see Tic Tac saucers, orbs, sometimes tampering with the nukes. When you say a nuke site, do you mean commercial electricity generation or defense sites? I mean, Air Force Base. That are, you know, Air Force Base is in national labs, but specifically places that house nuclear weapons. So places like Malmstrom, uh, Air Force Base in Montana, uh, Ellsworth Air Force Base in South Dakota, Effie Warren, places like that, Savannah Riverside, Seal Beach, and even Vandenberg, which is just, you know, missile testing, as you know. So the Chinese send a balloon over and it looks at sites and you're saying someone else is probably sending something else. It seems like right when we built nukes, something showed up and it wasn't human. I mean, it goes back until the 40s? It goes back till the 40s. Yeah. I, I don't know. I don't have any information to give you. I, I will, I will tell you Area 51 has been suspect for years. Um, there's a lot going on there on defense related activities, but nothing that I know about, um, with, uh, any kind of UFOs. Yeah. What, what'd you know about him? I met him and I know the name and that's about all. Was he, uh, what was, what was he? He wouldn't remember me. No, I, I bet you he would, but what, what, how did you get to know him? I think it would have been in one of our briefings at the energy department. Okay. You have to tell me what he did. I, it might come back to me. He was, um, well, he did a bunch of things. He was an economic advisor for, um, JFK, LBJ, Nixon, and Ford. And he was doing a lot of trade stuff. Um, and, uh, but he, his, his closest mentor was a guy named Richard Bissell who founded Area 51, was the deputy director of the CIA. And, um, yeah, it's just a fascinating guy. So yeah, I was curious to hear. I would have read the name. I think, uh, I'm not sure I met him then. The name sounds very familiar. He definitely would have been involved in some ways with the Reagan White House. And, um, though the reason I bring him up is because at the end of his life, he claimed to have held, uh, UFO material that came down, uh, from, uh, a nuclear, a high altitude nuclear test in the Marshall Islands. Um, so there's this test called Bluegill Triple Prime, part of the Starfish Prime test series, and material seemed to come out of the sky and then it made its way to Sandia Complex. Um, and this guy, Lawrence Preston Geis, who is the head of the Atomic Energy Commission, Albuquerque branch, ended up founding a nuclear test. And, um, he was the head of the Atomic He had this material in his hands and he gave it to Harold Malmgren. Harold Malmgren was in charge of the kind of cost assessments for this whole, you know, missile defense program. He said, well, he reached for some stuff sitting on his desk. These are things that have come down. I'm looking at, you know, round rocks, you know. So you're looking at like material, anomalous material. Yeah. Debris. Yeah. Wow. That's amazing. And Harold apparently said that this whole thing was actually devised to take down UFOs and that it, that made its way into, you know, Edward Teller's Excalibur, uh, designs for strategic defense initiative, which scaled up this sort of UFO crash retrieval program. I don't have any knowledge on that. Uh, or I would ask you, where is the material today? Yeah. - Yeah, I don't know. - Why aren't they carbon dating it and telling us what it is? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, did you see anything at the time that you felt kind of was really ontologically shocking where you were like, the reality I know from the civil side world might be turned on its head a little bit or a little different than I thought it was? We heard rumors from protesters and things like that. They're always making up stuff. I used to fly spec our budget. And I found something in the budget that really bothered me. Huge item. And I wanted to know what it was. And they said, you don't need to know this. What was it? 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It's not just creatine, it's the system around creatine. We're way past the dark ages of creatine. And we're way past the dark ages of being for gym bros. Creatine is critical for energy, metabolism, cognition, and healthy aging, not just lifting like a bodybuilder. Although it's good for that too. So go to qualialife.com slash jesse for 50% off. And here's a bonus. Use the code jesse, J-E-S-S-E, for an additional 15% off your order. That's Q-U-A-L-I life.com slash jesse and use code jesse. Thank you so much to Qualia for sponsoring. Huge item. What was it? It was the F-117 fighter being developed. Our first fighter that was undetectable by radar. And it was based in the energy department. Land in the Nevada desert underground. And the Air Force did not want me to see it, but was in our budget. So I finally said, I want to see it. I went out and sat in one. And, you know, they flew them only at night until one crash. And then it became very public. So it's not classified anymore. But I know there are projects that are so secretive that there are great efforts to keep them. There was a budget line item from the 80s called. The Aurora. I don't know if you're familiar with that. It was like a Lockheed program. Billions of dollars as well. Well, Lockheed Skunk Works are famous. That's where the F-117 team was built. And the UR planes, they're all built right in the Burbank airport. Exactly. Right in that building, right next to them. Did you ever meet Ben Rich, the head of Lockheed Skunk Works? Yes. What did you think of him? You can't. I met him. And they come out and they shake hands. Okay. You know, you're. A government official and they need the money. Did you ever get a sense that he knew something about UFOs? Do you think UFOs were being used as a cover for these high altitude recon planes? So obviously you have the U-2 spy plane and SR-71 that. SR-71 is a big one. Everybody knows about those now. Do you think that UFOs are just kind of the follow-ups of those things? Or to me, it's obvious there's something else going on that they seem to show up around nuclear sites, nuclear detonations. Well, you're asking me in a really specific. I'm not speculating. I can't do that on that. Fair enough. I need some sort of concrete evidence or. I mean, if you had that material and it was analyzed and it turned out to be a super moon rock or something, maybe we could talk more about it. Well, okay. Super concrete example would be Oak Ridge National Laboratory. So as part of this Pursue Executive Branch Act, Trump is now releasing documents on UFOs. And at Oak Ridge in the 50s, there's a technical document that talks about magnesium and bismuth with isotope ratios that, you know, seem like they're bonded on an atomic level, which we definitely can't do now, let alone back then. And they're studying this thing and it's a total enigma. And so this is an official document that the White House is kind of endorsing. Is it still being studied? Yes. Yeah. In fact, you know, we're in the Bay right now. At Stanford, there's a professor named Gary Nolan who actually. He has another piece of magnesium bismuth from a crash on the beach in Brazil, an Ubatuba. So, yeah, we did a mass spectrometry analysis of some of those pieces with a highly sensitive instrument. And one of them was anomalous. The magnesium ratios were way off. I mean, not even close to being natural. And it's also, yeah, magnesium bismuth with isotope ratios. I think the magnesium isotope ratios specifically. are just way out of whack for anything you'd ever expect on Earth. The purity level is, you know, standards of deviations higher. So the next question for him is, where did it come from? I don't know. I'm asking, you know, you had. He has it. Yeah. And he's written a report on it. Yeah. And it's otherworldly. Yeah. Where did you get it? I found that on a beach. In Brazil, in the 50s. In Brazil? Yes. What was a Stanford professor doing in Berkeley on a beach? No. So there was a fisherman. A fisherman in Ubatuba, Brazil, on the beach, sees this thing flying around in all sorts of, you know, ways that, you know, transcended any sort of flight patterns at the time. This was before drones ever were a thing, let alone in Brazil. And, you know, this thing seemed to kind of, like, explode in the air. There was this, like, you know, almost like a big event where, like, it flamed out. And a little piece of it, which could have been almost like exhaust or like slag from it, came down. And this fisherman retrieved it. It then ended up making its way to, I believe, Jacques Vallée, who is the sort of French godfather of UFO research, who publishes his address online. He then gives it to Gary Nolan, who can do mass spectrometry on it, because he's this, you know, official scientist at Stanford. And so that's the provenance. So the most interesting thing you said to me, something happened to it in the air. It exploded or it came apart. Mm-hmm. Or was shot down or something caused part of it to fall. Mm-hmm. The question is, where's the rest of it? And if it's subject to failure in the air, what failed and who caused it to fail? That type of thing. Those questions hit me before a rock a guy picked up on a beach and has gone through five hands and has ended up at Stanford, which I've lost some of my faith in Stanford, even though I'm alumni. Well, the isotope ratios speak for themselves. Those are strange, you know. But yeah, no, I hear you. What exactly interfered with it? I don't know. Some people think that directed energy or high-powered radar seems to interfere with the flight paths of these UFOs, and that's why they come down. You know, that was sort of talked about in, you know, a lot of these documentaries that are being endorsed at the highest levels. I mean, I have seen laser technology that could bring down almost anything. You know, Reagan also made some interesting statements that I forgot to bring up when we were speaking in person. You know, in 1974, while he was governor of California, his pilot was a guy named Bill Painter, and they were flying in a Cessna near Bakersfield, and apparently Painter described basically this steady light, basically UFO, 100 yards behind the plane that suddenly accelerated. It seemed to elongate and then shot upwards at a 45-degree angle, and Reagan said to Painter, let's follow it, as kind of a joke. Did you ever hear anything about this? I know you had been, you know, alongside Reagan for many years, even pre his presidency. You were his advance man. No, I heard about that. And just to add to that, it was right near that time. I'm not sure it was exactly that same trip. But when we were coming into Chico for an event, that would be during the same event, Painter was flying, and we came roaring in on a runway, landed, and went screaming down to the end. And I said, where's the crowd? And Painter has landed at the wrong airport. So we took off again and flew farther north and landed at Chico and had the event. So these things happen, I guess, you know. So do you think, but it seems like maybe these things are otherworldly, like they're not, you know. That's the word that gets me, otherworldly. I want to know where the world is. But in the 40s and 50s, who would have built these things? You know, you could come up with some sort of, you know, ex-Nazi. Boys in Brazil narrative where they had exotic flight capabilities that they were building. They would have built them in Hollywood. They built anything in Hollywood. But you think that this is all explained by Hollywood, all of the UFO sightings at nuclear sites? Look at, what in the 30s when, what's his name, had the War of the Worlds broadcast to the country? Orson Welles. Orson Welles broadcast War of the Worlds. And the country went nuts. And everybody believed it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure, sure. This is not new. No, it's not. But I mean, simultaneous to that, you had, you know, you were in Los Angeles at the time. There was something called the Battle of Los Angeles, which made its way all the way to George Marshall, who was Secretary of State at the time, where a UFO was seen all the way down the coast of California from, you know, Santa Monica into Long Beach into San Diego. And it was tracked all the way. So there is kind of a longstanding tradition of real sightings too. And where did it go? Nobody knows. But, you know, so I think on the one hand, the first rule of kind of intelligence or defense is if you don't understand a thing, don't admit it. But I don't think that's right. I think if you want to make progress on a thing, I think you just let it out. You open source it. It's like the transistor, right? In the 50s, you know, when the transistor really came online. They were thinking maybe this we should apply the Invention Secrecy Act to this. Maybe we should clamp down on it. We don't want, you know, the Soviets or the Chinese to get this or whatever. And then at another point, they go, no, we're going to we're going to let it out. And then we're going to run fast as hell and we're going to win. And, you know, why can't we do the same thing on, you know, this sort of stuff? If something exists in the realm of fundamental science and ontological truth, you know, I think the people deserve to know. So with my background and my age. Yeah. I'm looking at AI, which I don't understand, and I've seen the fakery on AI. Well, my grandson has done a couple of things for me to play jokes on friends. Fascinating. He he took a friend of mine, dressed him up in a in a coat and tie. This guy's down in Newport Beach, dressed him up in a black tie, coat and tie, put him on the stage of the Grammys receiving an award by Barack Obama. Okay. All that done just like that. So I don't know what you can trust in the AI now that's coming to us. I would trust the naval gun camera and some of these shots that are that are on the TV now. But from here on out, I'm going to be a skeptic on what I see. Because a lot of these guys like this guy, Jay Stratton, another guy, Jim Lekatsky, a lot of these guys have really deep histories and, you know, intelligence. They're, you know, senior officers, intelligence officers, in one case, a rocket scientist. And they say they've gone inside these crafts. I mean, actually, under your tenure, there's a guy named Bob Lazar. I don't know. They've gone inside the craft. That's what they say inside a hangar. They've gone inside a craft of non human origin. You told us because you were allowed to tell us that our government has a UFO in its possession and has been able to access the inside of it, right? Yes. And this guy, Bob Lazar said he worked at S4 Area 51 in 1951. And he said, you know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. He worked at S4 Area 51 in 1989. And I guess he came out in 89. But yeah, it was 80 between 88 and 89. And he said he got the job through Edward Teller. Have you ever seen there's a there's a video of Edward Teller being questioned on his relationship with you? Yeah, it's really funny. And if I ask you on camera, if you know Bob Lazar, can you just say no? I will sit silently. And so it's, it's just so fascinating. What did he do? He went inside? He went inside? He actually worked on reverse engineering the craft. So there were there a few different initiatives. And one was seeing if you could derive any sort of directed energy principles. The other was seeing if you could recreate the propulsion of the craft. So that was a really big part of what he was doing. He was trying to stabilize, you know, heavy elements, do things like that. So there's this element 115 that they found, you know. So I would say this. He would be telling the truth if he was reverse engineering equipment in Area 51, because there is equipment there that we acquired from other governments that we're using to develop certain things. I don't, I don't think that's all classified yet, but there's a lot of classified stuff there that I wouldn't talk about. For sure. But it does seem like these UFOs show up around nuclear. There's even a case also in the White House, you know, Pursue Act 2015, you know, Pantex facility in Texas where they assemble the nuclear weapons. And there's this diamond, you know, shaped UFO and it's hovering there. It's caught by radar, two missile security officers. And so it's hard to, I feel like, deny that there's this kind of longstanding ubiquitous connection between nuclear and even, I just got back from Japan and in their, next to their civilian energy grid in Fukushima. They see UFOs all the time, so much so that they built a museum dedicated to UFOs in the nineties. So, you know, I think there's a pattern. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Well, that's, that's something I didn't know about. We have, we've been to Fukushima. Okay. Nice. And I'm happy to point out, we were with there, the guy that led the delegation on what happened and, and Fukushima did not kill anybody. It was the typhoon that killed them, that drowned them. But the, but the reactor itself was not a flood. The, um. There's a video though, from that disaster where UFOs are everywhere. And it's almost like they're doing cleanup, which is just so fascinating. Steven Spielberg actually made a documentary about it. Yeah. Well, I think Steven Spielberg stuff is amazing. It's amazing. It's just amazing. And he's such a believer and he's, he, you know, says, I have a sneaking suspicion that, you know, this isn't fiction, what I'm doing with Disclosure Day. You gotta, you gotta worry what Hollywood does. I, I mean, they, they do change everything. But I, I think it's not just Hollywood. You, do you, did you ever work with Bobby Ray Inman? All the time. Good friend. So there, so, you know, very high up guy. He was, you know, head of the NSA, deputy director of the CIA at the same time. Oh, that's amazing. Oh, very cool. So he, so he actually is on record talking about, he says, I don't know when the UFO, the proofs will ever come out, you know, but, you know, they will at some point. And he seemed like he was very deep on, on this issue. Do you anticipate that any of the recovered vehicles would ever be, become available for technological research outside of the military circles? Again, I honestly don't know. Ten years ago, the answer would have been no. Yeah. Whether as time has evolved, they're beginning to become more open on it. There's a possibility. I'll ask him. Okay. I will. I'd love to interview him. That'd be amazing. Oh, he's a neat guy. He founded, do you know about the National Underwater Reconnaissance Office? No. Okay. That's public now. It's a, yeah, yeah, yeah. Was it Bob Bellard elected for that too? The guy that found the Titanic? I think so. Yeah. He was close to him and he runs all the deep submersible stuff. Yeah. Yeah, they are. That are kind of exotic and- Anything they want. Yeah. Yeah. And that's what this guy, Bob Lazar at Area 51, he said that what the crafty, or they found, one of the crafts they found was found on the seafloor. So this is, you make an interesting point that I forgot to mention. Yeah. I was thinking about this the other day, just because I saw another picture or one. Yes. There could be, instead of another planet, it could all be coming from the bottom of the ocean. Do you think there's a chance of that? I have no idea. Have you seen any evidence around that? I've seen all these crazy fish they're finding and then the sunken ships they're now bringing up and the Russian sub they found. And I don't know. Do you think there's something to like a movie like James Cameron's The Abyss where you have- They have gills and they're swimming around. Yeah. There's some sort of, yeah, exactly. Only in Hollywood. Alien intelligence, you know, underwater. Yeah. But Hollywood, as you know, they can get, there was actually a position called the official CIA liaison to Hollywood. And it was Chase Brandon was the guy's name. And he was literally, it was his job to like ensure that- What a great job. Why not? Yeah. I guess it's, you know, it's to ensure, you know, that things were done right and portrayed right. And I think he even advised on, if you remember Robert De Niro's character in Meet the Parents, he was like the CIA agent. That was, you know, Chase Brandon doing the advising. Chase Brandon wrote a book about UFOs and it's called Cryptos, Conundrum. And he starts the book off with this Francis Bacon quote. And he says that, you know, some truths are so strange that they have to be hidden in fiction. And so he says, read between the lines in this book and you'll understand the truth. And it's about this sort of elite, majestic committee that came together to sort of guard these primordial secrets around how the world worked. It's fascinating. Well, committees come and go. And people die and people get old. If you had a committee from the fifties and forties fooling with this thing, it would die. It would not have a life of its own. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50-page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Check responses, setup required, compatibility and availability varies 18 plus. Forever. Yeah, that might be true. Yeah, Harold Malmgren, before he passed, he mentioned that sort of committee, and he mentioned him being on their radar and him maybe possibly having worked with them. There are so many committees and so many presidential appointments of boards and commissions that, I mean, there's 15,000 of them. Did you ever get the sense that the politics that feel surface level, there's something deeper going on, kind of undergirding the decision-making going on internationally? Like, there's this. There's a sense, I think, that people sometimes have that the civilian elected leaders are operating sometimes within padded walls or sort of, you know, confines. Did you ever get that sense, or did you feel like they had full latitude to, you know, kind of do what they want? Obviously, within the confines of bureaucratic inertia that they faced. But I mean more metaphysically. No, it's within the confines of politics. Because every single one of them wants the job, wants to be reelected. And so they only. They only operate. And I got to tell you, this is absolute truth. In the Congress, Senate, House, they want the job. And their wives are telling them at home, don't screw this up, Henry. We're not going back to Oklahoma. And I think these are political things. If it looks like it's going to be controversial, they'll shy away from it every time. The UFO is a different thing. There's so much happening outside. They may see this is a great issue. They may see this is a great issue to leap on, and I never have to take a position. You think it's a distraction or. Oh, absolutely. Okay. Sure. Congressman says, I want on that committee. We're going to investigate this. I'm going to be headlines every day. Yeah, you're right. We got all these cool guys to talk to us out there under oath. Was there anything in the world of like exotic propulsion or gravity manipulation you ever heard about? Gravity or manipulation, no. Okay. Propulsion, yeah, always. Exotic propulsion. You have an issue with naval submarines. Propulsion is the highest issue, I think. Silence. They need to be quiet. And they go through all kinds of things to keep them quiet, like specially designed propellers, all kinds of machinery that can't rattle and shake. Now they are ejecting. They're going to have to do certain things on the exterior of the hull as it moves to keep it quiet going through the water. I mean, propulsion was always on the front table of the naval reactor program. Fascinating. Yeah, it's just a. But if I told you there is an airplane powered by nuclear power sitting in a hangar in Idaho Falls, would you believe me? I might. I'd be open to it. What if I just made that up? It's. Yeah, I don't know. It is. It's true. Okay. It's never flown. Never flown. Somebody figured out it might crash. Whoa. Spread nuclear material all over the place. That's wild. So it's just sitting there. Yep. It's just this sort of like. Sits in a hangar. I know there was Project Orion, like Curtis LeMay wanted to do nuclear propulsion. Freeman Dyson was working on this thing, and it ended up, you know, JFK was very against it. So it ended up getting nixed. But I didn't know about this aircraft. Well, the government's done some crazy things. Howard Hughes built that plane, by the way. Wild. Just like the Goldmar Explorer and the rest of them. But look at Eisenhower. He went into Atomos for Peace. He was fracking oil in the 50s with nuclear weapons. So the oil would flow. That's insane. Then somebody figured out when they pulled the oil up, it was radioactive. They said, now what do we do? So the government is not beyond doing crazy things. Well, especially back then, it was like we were in full cowboy mode. Like the high-altitude nuclear test. They would just burn holes in the Van Allen Belt. You know, it was the first time. And there was like, I think there were even like calculations being done by the scientists involved saying, there is a, you know, sub-one, but real percentage chance that this ends the world. And they were like, but we should still try that, you know, sort of, that was the mentality. Well, supposedly that's what Oppenheimer said before they let off the first test. I think that's right, a trinity. I might even be conflating that. Yeah, a trinity. They said, you know, we don't know what's going to happen. Put on your glasses and keep your head down. Totally. Do you think that, you know, something happened maybe at Roswell? You know, that was obviously the site of the 509th Atomic Bomber Squadron led by Curtis LeMay. It was the site of all of our tactical nukes at the time. Do you think that maybe a UFO came down then? No. Okay, fair enough. So what do you think, do you think that the UFO issue just completely sputters out because there's nothing to it? Or do you think there's something else? Do you think there might be something to it? Well, one of you guys is going to have to dig up some new evidence. I think there's a lot of evidence. I really do. Okay, I want to see some material. You can drive to Stanford now and we'll show you material. I'm going to see something in Stanford? Yeah, you'd see the material I just discussed. Give me his name again. Gary Nolan. Gary Nolan. Tenured professor. What's his age? He's very well respected. I don't know, he's probably in his 40s. Does he work on the SLAC, the Linear Accelerator? I don't know, I don't think so, no. He has a microbiology lab, but he's a total polymath. He's very smart. The guy I liked was the guy that entered into the COVID sickness and said the masks were all BS, and he's now running the Nashville Foundation. Jay Bhattacharya. That guy's smart. He's great, yeah. They got some good people down there. For sure. So I wouldn't question this guy, but if he hasn't seen a UFO or seen one of the little people or visited the inside of it. He has seen some little people. Some little people. He's seen a lot. Yeah, and he's seen a craft, too. Appreciate it. Yeah. Okay. We're in a brave new world. This is not unbelievable from Stanford. No, you'd be surprised. You have a foundation at Harvard, you have a foundation at Stanford dedicated to finding extraterrestrial life. Not only that, but the kind of leaders of both foundations are tenured professors who basically are bought in to the idea that UFOs are showing up. So they smell good. Government money. That's what it's about. That might be your take. I don't know. That's my take. I think they're a little more earnest than that. Or at least Gary is. They got Musk wanting to go to Mars. Okay, so they can reach that far. And they've got a new telescope that's going to see everything out there. How are they going to establish all this? What are they going to get? What information and how are they going to get it? Well, now there's actually an astronomer who's gone through the Palomar Observatory plates. That's right outside LA. Exactly. And it was the most prominent observatory in use in the 40s and 50s. And she has found a bunch of transients that essentially look like UFOs. They look like flat mirror-like objects. Things that are extremely flat and extremely reflective. Wow. Like mirrors. And that makes it more fun. Like mirrors? Mirrors. Interesting. Yeah. Not something, not a stone, not a rock. Right. Not ice. And this is. Not round. Flat. This is from the Palomar Observatory before we had satellites in space. Yes. So that's fascinating. And what's really interesting, so she's Stockholm University, very, you know, reputable astrophysicist. And they look like UFOs showing up. And then there's actually a PhD at Vanderbilt who did a follow-up study. And he correlates these transients with showing up around nuclear detonations. So they're more likely, 70% more likely to show up 24 hours. Before or after a nuclear detonation in the 50s. It's really fascinating. That is fascinating. Yeah. So I do think there's a connection there. So here's what I say to you, Jesse. Yeah. Stay on this. Yeah. And get the answer. I would love to hear the answer. I will. I will. And it's your area and you're on top of it. And I don't know anything about it. But I'm fascinated. This is the kind of stuff I'd love to know about. Well, I appreciate the encouragement and all. I'm a citizen. Citizens should know about this. Yeah. Is there anything. Yeah, I'm with you. I think it's really important. Is there anything outside of UFOs where you think maybe something fundamental about science, like parapsychology might be an example, like sort of mind-matter connection stuff? Did you ever bump into any of that? No. I do believe sincerely that there are people that can see the future. Yeah. I have personally seen that. And it's been declassified. There's a CIA remote viewing program. This is not about CIA. I don't know about their program. Okay. I just know that there are people that my wife and I have met in real life that can predict the future. That's amazing. Yeah. It is amazing. Yeah. No, I agree. I think there are modalities of knowing that we just don't understand right now. And I know famously, Reagan and Nancy got a lot of flack for having an astrologer. But I think. That was her, not him. Okay. That was more her. Got it. But I think ultimately, I don't know. I don't think it's so. cut and dry, how we, how we come to know things. And I think human intuition is much trippier than we realize. Sure, I can, my wife and I communicate, we'll be thinking of the same thing at the same time. There you go. I mean, I'll be all saying, couldn't we have so-and-so for dinner? And she says, we're going to have so-and-so for dinner. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's coincidence maybe, but. Do you think that we'll get any sort of disclosure from Trump, any sort of, you know, grand unveiling of truths here? I hesitate to predict anything from Trump. What's your, do you think he's sort of shooting from the hip or what's your, how do you think he operates? I think he's going to, believe it or not, I don't, your listeners aren't all going to agree, but I think he's going to go down as a historic president. How so? You may not like the personality of the individual, but what he's doing is incredible. Well, I think he's taking the kind of negotiating business mind and he's sort of porting it into, you know, the White House. And I think at times it feels a little callous and art of the deal, you know, he's sort of whipping. He's sort of bringing people around or something. But I think simultaneously there are people who don't realize there's a method to the madness and that there is some real strategy going into it. They're going to be writing about his presidency for years. Do you think that? Yeah. Simultaneously though, some of the same things we were talking about earlier, the like punting hard problems to future generations. I don't think that's gotten better. It's been going on for years. Yeah. Pentagon makes an absolute rule out of that. All of the government programs, they have what they call, quote, out years. They will never sit down with you and define the end of the government program. In fact, name one government program that has gone out of business because it has accomplished what it was supposed to do. It's nothing, you know, and I'll do you one better. And, you know, the inverse example of that, of I'll name you a hundred programs that haven't worked and are this sort of bridge to nowhere. It's still gone. Cargo. Cargo cults that, you know, gets funded every year. It's crazy. That's right. We're still doing it. We're still giving Stanford's Leonard Accelerator money every year and it's so out of date, you can't believe it. Do you think we ever made, you know, there's this rumor that this is like ponds and fleishmen that we had this sort of breakthrough and cold fusion possibly in the, in the nineties or 2000s? I think the jury's out on that. There's some really smart minds working on that problem and there may be a total breakthrough. I hope there is, frankly. Yeah. Because I think all forms of, of energy are necessary where you're talking from the lowest part of arrays, solar arrays to energy efficiency programs is all necessary. When you say the jury's still out, did you see any evidence that maybe we've created some sort of preliminary breakthrough at some point or? Well, look at the things in the past, like polio. Mm. Years, it was a plague on humanity. Boom, one day Dr. Salk solves it. Mm. Nobody knew how, and then he figured it out. I mean, I think all that's possible. Interesting. Yeah. I believe so too. And I, I hope so sincerely. Did, did you ever face, you know, you mentioned having to clean up a lot of elements of the DOE and how it was kind of disorganized. Yes. Sort of the crown jewels of American defense doesn't really exist with the DOD. It really existed with the DOE. Did you ever feel like you had to fend off all sorts of foreign adversaries and spies and people with ulterior motives when it came to that? Yes, we had a lot of espionage in the energy department. You remember the, no, you're, I don't think you remember him. There was a spy called Wen Ho Lee who was operating in the energy department in Livermore and Los Alamos. We knew who he was, but he was definitely a Chinese spy. And there were others, but Wen Ho Lee was the famous case that finally broke. And I called my friend Ed Meese, who was attorney general at the time, still a very close friend. And we worked together on that and several other espionage cases. There's no doubt that our government is infiltrated by foreign countries on many, many levels, whether it is through the diplomatic corps or whether it is outside of that. And we even have some of our own citizens participating in that. We haven't caught them all, I'm sure. Well, a good example is a later secretary of energy. I'm sure you're familiar with Bill Richardson, who, you know, was also governor of New York. And it seems like, you know, there was this kind of siphoning off of, you know, American nuclear trade secrets with this sort of promise software. Are you familiar with this? That Robert Maxwell, you know, who obviously is intimately connected with Epstein, sold to our national labs. And it seemed like, you know, they were just giving away our nuclear secrets. I think Richard Sim was under. Clinton. Clinton. Clinton. The transfer of important technology from the Energy Department took place. More important, the transfer of technology from the Commerce Department under Clinton and from the Defense Department. You'll notice every single Chinese fighter looks like an American fighter, F-15. We took all the limits off technology transfer, and it flowed. And they got money for it. They set up fundraising groups. It goes on and on and on. There has been a lot of corruption in our political system, and there still is today. You can't say that we are clean and we've solved all the problems. The only thing we can do is stay ahead of the other people in our research and development, and that'll probably save us. That's why this AI thing is so interesting. Hmm. Yeah. Now the Department of Energy has this Genesis project, which is sort of, I think, a way to. collate and collect all of the information from all of the national labs and run it through AI and then see what comes out the other end. I'm not, but it doesn't surprise me. You roll in your eyes. What are your thoughts there? It's typical of a big-dollar program that probably will go nowhere. Hmm. Hmm. Was there anything that you feel like wasn't necessarily a big-dollar program that was under-invested in that you feel like we should be investing more in today when it comes to frontier science? I believe two things hit me. They're both in the defense area. I think the Naval Submarine Program was underfunded. I think it's probably the most devastating program we have today and weapon we have. They're totally undetectable. They can travel anywhere in the world. They can launch missiles everywhere. It's unclassified now, but our missiles have 12 warheads in them. All can be. They're independently targeted. And I've been in Pantex. I've been down in the pits. When you said the guys are circling above, it is open. You can't see. They've got the weapons on a lazy Susan that's going around. Everybody's putting their parts together. It's fascinating. He would love it. He'd love seeing it. Most of my time is fought against protesters trying to wipe out the white train or go to the nuclear site in Nevada. We are arresting people. They're having demonstrations. I think the Navy Submarine Program is underfunded. I think the Nuclear Weapon Program is underfunded. People are afraid of it. They have. For some reason, the public equates a nuclear reactor, a commercial reactor with a nuclear weapon. It's a terrible mistake. There was a movie in the 50s called The China Syndrome where a reactor melted and went through the earth and ended up in China. It scared everybody. And then we had architects design nuclear plants with these futuristic cones, which were cooling stations. Didn't have to be there. French don't use that. It gave a kind of a negative feeling for the reactors. So it all led to the ending of nuclear testing, which was taking place in Nevada. Now the testing is all done on computers. It's not enough. The weapons contain an item called tritium that's put in in Pinellas down in Florida. Tritium degrades. So we need to check all the time. Is the stockpile active? Is it good? And we need to test. So I would like to see that program plushed up. It also feels like a lot of our science has moved from public sector to private sector. And so there are companies like, are you familiar with SAIC out here by any chance? Science Applications International Corporation. I know the name. I've read about it. What are they doing? They were actually the largest contractor, one of the largest contractors for the Strategic Defense Initiative. That's where I heard it. Yeah. And they were doing really advanced science. They were actually doing, working on remote viewing stuff that they inherited from the CIA. This is all public information. And then, yeah, Bobby Randman was on the board there and they were sort of, you know, seemed to possibly be involved with UFO crash retrieval and recovery stuff too. So, yeah. I'm going to ask Bobby. I got to know. We got to talk to Bobby. He is so cool. You know, in the Navy hierarchy, he went to Annapolis and all the admirals were here and Bobby's here. Do you think he would ever go on record and talk about UFOs? He'd talk and he's so political, you wouldn't learn a thing. He actually. a buddy of mine interviewed him and he he was very kind of you know held his arms up and he was very sort of defensive but he was he was he was very collegial as well correct me if i'm wrong but it just seems like you're suggesting here that you're aware of retrieved ufos being studied by the military no i was not we're not absolutely we're not retrieved ufos i have high confidence oh he's a wonderful man you don't get four stars in the navy by not being a politician yeah but he did he there is a there's another phone call with him where he fully just starts talking about ufos and how it might come out at some point so maybe he wants a little press i don't know he's not above it well that cuts against what you just said about him so i don't know but um yeah it's it's an interesting topic because there's so much circumstantial evidence so much so beyond the threshold that you know of thinking there might not be a there there's clearly there's something there and then you run into a lot of dead ends as well you know and it's just uh it's very tricky but i think largely the next few months and years more and more is going to come out and so i think it's you know a lot of people are going to be kind of on the right side of history and vindicated who were kind of you know people like david grush who i think were treated badly in the past do you think because i wonder if the high energy physics closed group i wonder if they knew a thing or two because it feels like that's where you would there that's where you'd start to break reality with high voltage experimentation you know nuclear blasts that sort of thing i'd say it's not beyond them but uh what do you get out of it the building block of of the world of humanity they want to get to the lowest common denominator of a building block yeah of a person of a thing of a microphone that's what they're looking for totally and there are rumors at the large hadron collider at cern we're at cosmotron at brookhaven national labs that ufos seem to show up around you know the places where we're smashing together basically the building blocks of reality itself and that would it would kind of make sense if we were living in some sort of well the big stuff is happening in cern in switzerland yeah that's the best uh cyclotron now and it's it is the world's finest and best and everything else it is and it would it would make sense if you were you know beings look you know kind of guarding the sort of simulation you would show up where we're smashing together the the building blocks of reality you know it it is um it's a special field and there's special guys in it but they're they just have one issue yeah yeah yeah i mean they just want to build bigger and bigger this episode is brought to you by google chrome you think you know a browser but gemini and chrome that's new it can help you with practically anything on the web like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks gemini and chrome is here for it ready to make anything online make sense there's no place for you like chrome check responses set up required compatibility and availability various 18 plus you know accelerators and see see what comes it is comes out so where do you think we go from here do you think we it seems like trump has now put stephen miller on the topic of ufos marco rubio our secretary of state basically admits that we know somebody said what's the conspiracy you believe in most he goes there are things flying with impunity around our nuclear sites i don't know who it is i don't know what it is but there are things flying with impunity around our nuclear sites i don't know who it is i don't know what it is but there are things flying with impunity flying over our military installation and they're not ours and we should look into this be serious about it you know i would i would believe that i would go along with that but i i can't go the next step what is it i have no idea so you do think there are things flying around our airspace that we well i've seen pictures of them on television and i've seen films uh that have been uh on the on the publications and pictures in the paper and did you hear about any of this stuff when you were i am in power no no well we watch movies you know the spellberg movies were all out yeah you know but nothing nothing more officially nothing came out okay i'll say it again there's nothing official rumors people always kid about it but because i do think i think things will come out you know near term and so i'm just i just hope that i hope you break it first i really do i hope so i'll keep watching and see if we can get you to come out when i like have a guest here that came from you know uranus or somewhere yeah we'll try to figure it out you know i gotta choose a different planet but i'm uh oh you picked that up yeah so do you so so you think we'll sort of never know you think it'll be this like okay there are things around our sensitive sites but we'll never know exactly what well i don't i don't think i will ever know i'm 87 and um chances are good that we'll never know exactly what's going on chances are good that it won't happen in the five years but i don't know where it's all going i really don't yeah would you ever i don't know talk to congress in a closed setting with somebody like david grush and compare notes or sure i offer to do that you offer to i've been back several times in uh restricted sessions okay on security issues with the energy department on especially on rocky flats colorado that was that's been a big problem okay well that's cool that you're down to do that you're down to go i would do it so the the thing that grush talks about is he talks about the atomic energy uh act of 1954 and there being this sort of restricted data where if you retrieve anything that has alpha beta gamma radiation any radiation coming off of it it's immediately sort of born secret you actually read the atomic energy act if something is not a nuke but it has radiological energy coming off it you know alpha beta decay whatever same secrecy same secrecy and so that's what he he says that the ufo issue is sort of shoehorned into that and so he says that the oppenheimer people like robert sarbacher vannevar bush set up these sort of secrecy protocols to you know go under the department of energy and so i don't know if you have anything to say about that well first of all the atomic energy commission wasn't under the department of energy till in 76 before it was a standalone it was basically created by um the navy submarine guy rickover rickover is the father of nuclear energy and especially in the navy he was a four-star admiral when he wanted to testify and then he could jump over to the atomic energy commission when he wanted to be a civilian it was one of the great setups and i don't think we'd be anywhere without him and i doubt that oppenheimer or any of these people had any influence dealing with him he was a absolute one-man band and he believed in all this stuff getting out so i'd say that's nonsense but he believed in what getting out and he had he had information on nuclear power and the things the atomic energy commission were doing uh public the whole time he was very much in front of congress testifying all the time on that there's several books on rickover that are worth reading one of them's called underway my way yeah it's a good book yeah there's blind man's bluff yeah well that's a little different blind man bluff is uh the sosus buoys that were uncovered with the navy yep and i don't know if you've ever read the silent war john pina craven yes so there there he talks about john pina craven you know and these guys are like the godfathers of the the navy uh recovering exotic technology on the seafloor and so another case where you're like what's the point of this book i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't know going on here so we're going to find all the ufos come out of atlantis maybe which they now say is up in the red sea the naval uh has a consultant named bob ballard at the institute in connecticut bob is one of the great guys and he's looking for atlantis out in the mediterranean and he's got numerous books and he's gotten all kinds of prizes that's so cool bob what's bob ballard's background he's been running the oceanographic institute in connecticut for the navy and uh doing huge government contracts for exploration deep sea submersibles he's almost high security stuff i mean he he'll be at the bottom of all the deep submersible uh vessels that have been built and he's the one that found the ticanic some aircraft carrier out in the pacific what's the one lexington sunk off he's found it all that's amazing he's an interesting guy it could be there's a hypothesis there's actually a guy named hal put off i don't know if you're familiar with him but he he says that we have 10 to 40 crafts in our possession he also says he worked with george w bush and stephen hadley his national security advisor on you know whether we should make disclosures and um hal put off has a hypothesis called the ultra terrestrial hypothesis which is that um the beings the non-human intelligence are a holdover from a civilization that existed before the ice age and they are more advanced than us but they've been coexisting with us on earth for many years and so then they could be under our oceans but also be able to you know travel into deep space so it's very interesting and he's he's a long time nsa cia guy who's you know held very very high clearances and he says this publicly on joe rogan he talked about george w bush contemplating disclosure he talks he literally says we have between 10 and 40 crafts in our possession right now of non-human origin so we're looking the wrong place. We're all looking up. We should be looking down, right? Into the ocean. You've quoted an awful lot of CIA guys today. Yes. And I would not expect that to be where the information is coming from. I've known a lot of spooks. The energy department is just riddled with spooks. And if you look at the energy attaches at embassies around the world, usually they're CIA guys. I don't find them on the scientific level. They're full of schemes and theories and they're seeing shadows behind every door. I think the reason it might fall under the purview of the CIA, there's another CIA guy named Jim Semivan, who's, you know, I think basically ran the whole Northern hemisphere for the CIA and he's super into UFOs. And I think the reason it's sort of maybe falls under their, their purview is because it's not foreign intelligence, but it's super foreign intelligence. And so it's like they have the kind of analysis and sense-making, you know, mandate that would make sense here. You're kind of systematically dealing with things you don't understand, intelligence you don't understand. And so that's why they might be the frontier of defense. There's also a guy who was rumored to run the whole legacy crash retrieval program named Glenn Gaffney. And he was the CIA's director of science and technology. Well, I would love to talk to the head of the crash retrieval program during that era, but he refused to talk to us. And that was, that was Glenn Gaffney? Yeah. There seems to be some sort of connection between that and maybe DOE oversight. That's what, in this, in this movie age of disclosure, you have, again, people who are high up as director of national intelligence saying basically this was a joint effort between the direct, you know, the department of energy and the CIA's, you know, director of science and technology. Bill Casey was president Reagan's CIA director. And he, he and I sat next to each other at the cabinet table for five years and passed notes back and forth. And we'd play golf every Wednesday afternoon if we weren't busy. And we discussed all this stuff. We used to build the satellites for the CIA and the national laboratories. This subject never came up. And if it was on Bill's agenda, he would have talked to me about it. Yeah. So anytime in the 80s, I would say this was a non-starter. Interesting. Well, I appreciate your candid take, John. And, uh, you know, if at ever, if at any point you'd want to clear the air with, with Brent, I know he'd be excited to speak with you and I don't think he means you any harm. I think you really, I think he was very complimentary. I don't mentally. Yeah. So I think, I think he just felt compelled to, to talk about it. He needs to readjust his principles and figure out where he's going in life. Okay. Fair enough. Well, John, this has been a pleasure. I really appreciate it. It's a total honor. You know, it's not normal for me to be able to speak to somebody of your caliber and your track record. And, uh, you know, I, I think you have a lot of really great takes on, on politics. And so hopefully, you know, the people in charge now take note. And I also hope we're able to make progress on the, on the issue of UFOs. Cause it's just been, uh, you know, a real slog to get to where we are now, but I do think we've made a lot of progress in the last 10 years. I'm going to be watching and I'm, I'd like you to make some progress also before we close. Let me give you a couple of little keepsakes. These are matches off air force one from president Reagan. Wow. I don't think they're worth a lot. You can light your cigarettes with them, but he, did he own these? Uh, they came off air force one. And then here's, here is a Reagan golf ball. And I have to tell you very honestly, Reagan played golf once a year. He wasn't a great golfer. New York. I don't think he was a great golfer. And you can have that. You can sell that. The Japanese are, uh, love that thing. They'll buy it in two seconds. I'm not selling this man. I'm keeping this and I really appreciate it. That's very cool. Especially given the fact that he played so little golf, this is a rare keepsake. Yeah. So Jesse, thank you for, um, putting up with us here and we've enjoyed it. And, uh, you're a very good young man interviewing. So, um, I wish you all the luck in the world. Well, John, I appreciate this. And I, yeah, this was an honor and a lot of fun. And, uh, yeah, I'm excited to, to see how, how people respond and, uh, we'll see what happens. We live in a crazy world. Oh yeah. Yes, we are. I'm waiting for the AI to bring a microscope on all this. Yeah. Well, yeah, maybe they're the, maybe that's the aliens, the AI. Thanks again. And good luck to you. Thank you. Likewise. Do you think there's any chance he was hazing you, but not gratuitously randomly hazing you, but he wanted to see if you would talk because there was some sort of initiation process, like a secret society or something like that. See, this is a great theory and it's something I honestly hadn't thought of because of my personal relationship with him. I just, I, I assumed that he was unburdening himself. I assumed that being the man he was, he was going to be the man that he was going to be. And I, I, I, I, I, would not burden his wife and daughters with this truth, but I could see that physically it was a huge burden on him. So I thought in retrospect, I didn't make any sense when he was telling me, but in retrospect, I thought, oh, I have compassion for him because he was telling me things that he just needed to share with somebody. But Bryce has a theory that's very much in line with what you just said, which is the way things seem to work, right? As we've kind of learned more and more on sound, light, and frequency, is there is all of this subtle nuance to things, how information is exchanged and trial balloons and initiations and all sorts of stuff. So it's quite possible that I was being given a test of some degree to see what I would do with this information and that that may lead me down a path in the future. You've talked to a lot of people. Have you heard other stories of people being hazed, like, or being given something that people don't know about? I actually interviewed the head of Intel and Counterintel for the DOE from 2006 to 2009, a guy named Rolf Moat Larson. And he wrote this book that just feels so, like, Intel-coded. You know, it's called A State of Mind, Faith in the CIA. He also mentioned, you know, being hazed by the DOE. Like, there being, like, a hazing ritual when he joined the DOE around Roswell. And it's really interesting. So it's like, he was brought in by the deputy director of the DOE. So, like, the number two at the DOE is involved in this, like, hazing ritual around Roswell. We took a director level. So deputy secretary of energy was involved and several other bigwigs and me as the director of intelligence. And we take a newbie. The newbie would be a political appointee, very high level, maybe, you know, a deputy. Secretary or assistant secretary or some level, who had just signed up and gotten their clearances and were taking their jobs. And we bring them down to the bowels of the Department of Energy, where some of the most secretive things are guarded. And you know where those are, kind of. Everybody whispers when they come by. And you pull them into this back room, like Maxwell Smart in the old TV shows. And the hazing ritual is to explain to them that we really did have aliens. We covered aliens. One was injured, one was not. And we got the alien to come in. Space technology through Roswell, you know, et cetera. And it was a real thing. And the briefing is so good. It's got all the real DOE, what do you call it, tickets, you know, we call secret access program, SAPs, they're called, and things on this to make it seem as real as possible. And there's, you know, obviously there's corpses on tables and stuff to make this all look. At what point do you tell them it's a joke? Well, somebody cracks up and it, it, it, somebody can't keep it in any longer, we betray our own, our own. And the secretary of energy. We're not that good actor. The secretary of energy is literally in on this. It's a deputy secretary who's, who was, in my case, was in the room. Oh my God. But yeah, so we raise it to the, the highest level. And then the second really interesting thing is he had a download. He had a dream where he downloaded a bunch of numbers and the first numbers or sort of one of the prominent number sequences is 747. And so I call him out on that. When he brings up, you know, the story of being hazed, I go, you know, and Roswell was, he goes, do you remember the date of Roswell that they gave you? Uh, no, not off the top of my head. I think I had it in the, I think I wrote it in the book, but it is in the book and it's July 7th, 1947. Yeah. Do you think that connects with your download 747? Oh my goodness. Good. You know, that's the first time I've ever thought that, that it might. There's something going on with high energy physics, the department of energy, I think throwing people off actually with this sort of alien motif, but that representing an inroad to something way deeper and more intense. Yeah. Wow. I need to go back and listen to that interview. Um, I mean, it all oddly adds up, but in a more kind of like three-dimensional chess way, it doesn't all add up in a linear kind of rational way. And I think that what you just said, that intersectionality, of like somehow quantum physics and weird esoteric agnostics dynastic ancient philosophies religion spiritual technologies whatever you want to call i think that's where the truth lies somewhere in in there and it i think it probably does involve i think consciousness is at the center of everything right that that's the that's the great unknown still the great undiscovered country for us um but i also think that there is this convergence at consciousness of science and spirituality and and i think that's also why this it's so hard to convey the full truth to anyone and it also could be too that um part of this hazing ritual or this initiation that people go through is to see how you will respond meaning not just what you will do or who you will tell but what your consciousness will make of these ideas or experiences right and if they tend to go in you know in a more obvious way then you're not of interest but if they tend to go in a direction that allows you to start having other experiences then you might be heading down the right path and you might be of value because your consciousness might be ready to receive certain information your heart can tell you a lot about your health apple watch series 12 measures your heart rate every five seconds with the most accurate heart rate sensing in a wearable so your vitals app now with heart rate variability can tell you when something is off and your readiness score can let you know when to rest and when to push hear the story in every heartbeat with apple watch series 12 the features described are for wellness purposes only and not for medical use iphone 11 or later required based on apple conducted study of heart rate accuracy august 2026 visit apple.com slash apple watch series 12 tammy regularly hauls stuff to her kids at college that's why she shops at bj's wholesale club saving up to 25 off grocery store prices beef jerky microwave meals laundry pods even they can't screw up have you met my kids and with bj's gas she gets there for less they call me the road warrior this is your home road warrior mom home of the save join for just twenty dollars at bjs.com slash mesquite and save ten cents per gallon for a free meal for six months open soon limited time offer new members only bj's home of the save