"I Became Bigger Than The Beast" — Catalina Guirado EXPOSES TFI Friday Backstage Drama & Chris Evans Grudge

- I became bigger than the beast. And I don't think he deeply liked that. - I'm sure. My guest was on one of the biggest shows on British TV. She was one of the original It Girls of the Era. She had everything the fame machine could offer. And then she walked away, Catalina Grado. - A lot of the press suddenly went into the only reason for watching would be the gorgeous girl. And it was fabulous for a moment. But he's never been particularly friendly ever since. - Do you think that's probably reminiscent of that by still 30 years later? - Well, I mean, that's holding a grudge, isn't it? There were a lot of opportunities. I do think I probably should have taken them. - Give us an example of some of those opportunities. - I remember getting off the radio show and I turned it down and I come, "Wow." But I never had a problem by the pin-up thing. It's about being strong and sexy. - Yeah. - I think it should be empowering and women need to embrace that power. I did not expect it to be. - You didn't expect it. - No, because Toya was in her. - I think she was a bit. (laughs) - There's a pattern here. - Yeah. - I swam with the goggles. - And got water and stars. However, I find it all a bit weird. - Did you just kind of like make the decision in the junk of her flight? I don't want this. (upbeat music) - Guys, this is a new show. If you enjoy what you are watching, please click on the subscribe button below. Welcome to the addiction to more show with me, your host, Gareth Gallagher. 30 years ago, my guest was on one of the biggest shows on British TV. She went into the jungle and I'm a celebrity and swam with crocodiles and she won stars in their eyes and she made her own documentary about her career and how the media treated women. She had everything the fame machine could offer and then she walked away. It's 30 years since TFI Friday and sitting next to me, she looks absolutely no different. Please help me welcome to the show, the gorgeous girl, Catalina Gerardo. - Catalina, thank you for coming on. - Thank you so much for having me. - Oh my gosh. - It was a pleasure to be here. - Yeah, absolutely. - How have you been and welcome back to the UK? - Oh, thank you, yes. - How have you been back? - A couple of days. - Three days. - Wow, wow. So thank you so much for coming on to the show. - Oh, my pleasure. - Oh my gosh, so what an incredible career you've had. And like, you know, I think like in today's age where everybody is kind of seeking fame. And like this, you know, I gosh, I have so much admiration for somebody who had everything at their foot, you know. Everything was in front of you and then you decided to walk away. - I know, well, sometimes I kick myself a bit because it's just, you know, I think it's this thing. As you get older, they always, everyone who gets older says this. If I was young now, or if there's that saying isn't it, youth is wasted on the yacht. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, completely. - Actually, I would probably be really good at doing all of that stuff now. Some so much more comfortable in myself. - Yeah. - And experience so much more, but at the time I was, I guess I got a little bit of imposter syndrome. And, you know, it was, it just, I don't know, I just, I don't think I was very good at being a celebrity. I kind of liked being famous. - So you loved the fame, but you hated being a celebrity. - But I just didn't like this, like it just wasn't a bit insane and I didn't feel quite worthy of it. - Yeah. - Because for me being a celebrity is, I mean, famous is because you're like, a movie star or you're doing something and you know, you're really successful at. And especially when reality TV kicked in, it was like, well, why? Why does everybody, do you know what I mean? It's like, I don't do anything. I just did a show with, I don't know, I guess I swam with rock girls and got all 10 stars. Yes, however, you know, other than that, I find it all a bit weird. So TFI was different 'cause it was like a role on one of the biggest shows and at the time. And it hadn't really gone into, I think, you know, things really changed in the Y2000s where the whole way celebrity came across. But, yeah, TFI was good. It was a role. I was still a model. I was still, but then the whole reality thing, I was just like, I did not sign up for this. - Do you felt totally out of your comfort zone? - Yeah, it was, it wasn't what I wanted to do. And I, you know, and there were a lot of opportunities and I do think I probably should have taken them. But. - And give us an example of some of those opportunities. - I remember getting off the radio show and I turned it down. Hang on a minute, let's just go back. So hang on a second, you said that you turned down your own radio show. - I mean, how stupid am I? No, I'm an idiot and I apologise. I apologise to my. - At least she's honest. - No, I apologise to my old manager, he was like, I totally apologise. He was an idiot. - And was that a split moment decision on? Was it something was like. - No, I just wanted to go back to L.A. and, you know, - Just when you feel you go Mortensen or something, you know? - Right, completely. - Because that's what I was going to do. - Of course, you know, it's like. - Yeah. - Amazing that you kind of like just walked away and then you were kind of. - I know, yeah. - I was well, you know. Well, I just. - You can lead a horse to water. - I just, I didn't, it wasn't what I wanted to do. - Yeah. - And I didn't really know what I wanted to do. And that was. I actually really wanted to meet the right person and settle down and get married. And I actually really, that's what I wanted to do. I think my whole life. - Right. - And maybe I don't know, that's what it was. And I did in L.A. So there you go. - So everyone happened in L.A. still. It came true in L.A. It's just. - It did. - You know, it's amazing, like, isn't it? Like, everybody goes to L.A. to find the fame and then you're going there to kind of, like, leave it behind. - Yeah, I'm. - You know, it's like. - It's probably the only person that actually didn't go there to do that. I mean, you kind of end up doing stuff because you're over there and you meet people. - Yeah. - But again, I didn't go there to Troy and. - Boost your career in that. - Boost my career at all. No, and it made me laugh because, you know, when you used to get those magazines and you see, so and so, walking down the street in Melrose, Melrose or at the beach. And I was like, mm-hmm. They called the paparazzi. Because I never, ever, ever got noticed there at all. So, you know, you can disappear quite well there. - Which is amazing, 'cause, like, L.A. is like, I don't, whenever I go there, I think it's like, everything is like in your face of, like, entertainment and television and, like, you know, and, yeah, it makes me want to be in it as opposed to, like, run away from it, you know? It's definitely a city, I think, as, you know, it's been so famous for that. - Well, I think you definitely have a better, well, they'd really kiss your ass as a celebrity. - Yeah. - More so than here. I mean, you really have a different way of living. And, you know, I dated someone that was very famous at the time and been with him. I had, you know, I was very successful in England at the time. So, we had a very different situation. Life there. And then, of course, I know, I married someone who wasn't, but it was in, you know, he's a musician, he was in a band, so it was kind of similar, but wasn't super famous. And it's a very different situation. - Mm-hmm. - So, L.A., when you are someone, or, you know, or a buzz, great fun. - Yeah. - When you're not, it's just different. - Yeah. - However, I actually got everything I ever really wanted in life, 'cause I always grew up wanting horses. I wanted to marry someone lovely, settle down, have a very normal life, you know, security, and have horses and animals. - And you found it in that way. - And I did, I've, you know, and so I kind of expanded. I actually grew to be the person that I actually probably should be, and who I am today, because- - Yeah, a lost bar. - Yeah, 'cause, you know, the thing is, when you, 'cause I was on tier 5, you know, when you're on tier 21, so it's growing up in front of the camera. - Yeah. - Like, it's for about, good, nine, 10 years that I was in the papers every single day. - Which is amazing. - Which is readable when you think about it. - And, you know, you know, a lot of people would be like, "Ugh, that's so amazing." And for me, it's like, "Mm, you know, no, yes, and no." I got sick of myself, and you know. (laughing) Oh, look, I'm in the paper again. - Oh, I don't know, I am front page and center. - I know, I remember sitting next to someone on a nera phone. - No, no, we're just reading, you know, heat with something, and I'm just sitting there going. - So did she recognize you? - No, I'm like, "Oh, God, let's just look to me." When, "Shouldn't you be up that way?" (laughing) I'm like, "No room." - Oh, my God. (laughing) - Yeah, there wasn't any room at the front, so. - Oh, my God. So do you think it was the jungle that kind of, did you just kind of like make the decision in the jungle for like, "I don't want this." Was it like, it didn't come from the fear of the things you were doing in there? - Oh, hell no, no, no, no. No, 'cause you were in your little bubble when you're in there, so you don't really know what's going on. I think it was for afterwards, it was just so insane, for like, it was insane. - Right, we see all the attention. - With the attention. - Yeah. - And that's when I got uncomfortable. One really moment comes to mind is it's been a premiere in Leicester Square. - Right. And I'd got used to doing those over the years, you know, red carpet, et cetera, but it was, again, when I was on TFI, I felt like I had a job. - Yeah, yeah. - Boy, I did, I'm a celebrity. I didn't feel like it was a job 'cause it was this reality show, right? - Yeah, yeah. - So, I remember they said, "Oh, will you come on the balcony?" Which overlooks the whole of Leicester Square, and you know, I think we're waiting for like, Tom Cruise or something to come. And one of the spice girls had just been out there and like, "Oh, right." - Doing the wave, magic waves. - Doing the wave, and everyone cheering. - And then it was your turn. - And then they said, "Oh, can't you come on the balcony?" I was like, "Why? Why would anyone want me to be on the balcony talking to them? Why, why?" And I just kind of, and then it kind of, it's a little in like, I get like this, right? - Yeah. - And then that's kind of, I feel very, very uncomfortable. - Wow, isn't it amazing? - Isn't it? - I know it is, yeah. - And there's been the thing, like we're all, don't you think that's the thing we're also, like, seeking on social media. It's like, the attention, the validation, and suddenly when you get it, you're like, "Oh, yeah, it's like that tug of war, isn't it?" Between push, pull, of like, I want this. I want to be seen, but I don't want to be seen. - Exactly, and also, it must be even worth now with all the social media and the trolling and stuff, when we didn't have that. So, but, you know, I think I got it very much in my head that everybody hated me. People thought it was stupid, or you just, I don't know, it messes with, it messes with my head. - Yeah. - And again, in Poster syndrome, it was huge. I can't really explain it, but I discovered that I'm really happy. As I think I never wanted to be famous, I quite like being infamous. (laughing) - Don't we all? - It suits me better. - So, yeah, you know, and I like being really successful, and I like being really good at stuff. And I do like a little bit of the whole, you know, people know who you are, and listen to it. It was always great not having to go straight to the front of the line. - Yeah. - Oh right. Don't have to queue, and you can get a table anywhere. That was my two favorite things. - Amazing. I mean, who doesn't love that? - The rest of it could give that, you know. - You know, the attention and everything else that comes with it. You know, it's like, and you've had, I mean, but from a very early age, you were very successful because you were doing fashion, you were doing modeling, you were on all of these covers of magazines. - I was, I mean, I was model. Yeah, I think what was weird because I was a fashion model. And then as soon as I did TFI, I became a household base. And then I'm in the tabloids, and then that kind of canceled out the fashion model. And then I didn't really get that. And then, but it was the same time as when all the LADS mags came in. - Yeah. - And that was such a weird era. And then suddenly I'm doing like, for like seven years, I'm wearing a bikini in lingerie for every shoot. - Oh my God, that is hilarious. So you spent seven years basically in a bikini, right? - And it was actually quite exciting to give, get, giving clothes, and have a stylist. I thought, my God, I'm my guest today. Fabulous or doing fashion, you know, it was a, and could I get booked before if the swimwear? - No, I could not. - Wow. - Yeah. So it was kind of this strange, but I never had a problem like the pin-up thing. I mean, you know, I would be, you know, like Raquel Welsh and all the big pin-ups at the time. I think they're fabulous. And it's about being strong and sexy. - Yeah. - And I don't think it was derogatory. And I don't think it should be seen as derogatory. I think it should be empowering when women need to like embrace that power. There's a difference between smutty and sexy and strong. - Yeah, and tasteful. - Yeah, exactly. - And everything I've seen you in you, I mean, you look absolutely stunning. And you still are very stunning. You know, like you had all of that elegance and tastefulness. And, you know, but surely they're probably with that did come some of the smutty kind of, you know, the kind of male kind of, you know, ultra-ego kind of feeding, you know, tell us a bit more about that. Did you, were you getting some? - Yeah, some guys were kind of great. - Let's see. - Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, I'm just, yeah, there was some disgusting things that like, you know, what they've done over pages that they are making. - Yeah, I can imagine that. - And you're just like, really, thanks, you know. You, yeah, you stuff that you just would not get away with today. - Yeah. - Oh my God, so I can imagine that. Because like, print was the thing back then, you know, like everything was, you know, in these magazines, you're in thousands and millions of people's hands like I'm the way to work, or I'm sorry, excuse the pun there. Two minutes ago, quite like that. - Yeah, yeah. - But yeah, no, I can only imagine what that attention and then, and then going then to TFI and then being on this huge television show. And, you know, what was it like working with Chris at the time? - Well, it was fabulous for a moment. - Only for a moment. - Yeah, you know, I loved being on that show. - Yeah. - I mean, I loved it. It was like a family and every week was great. And I found out subsequently that they, was they maybe he had a bit of a problem that the fact that a lot of the press suddenly went into the only reason for watching would be the gorgeous girl. And, you know, I started, I became bigger than the beast. - Wow. - And I don't think he'd particularly like that. - I'm sure. - I'm sure. - And he's never been particularly reached out or been particularly friendly ever since. - Wow. - I've never really spoken about him. I respect him enormously. I learned so much. I used to sit quietly at the back and watch the rehearsals 'cause there'd be three rehearsals for the show. And he would come in for the second 'cause he was finishing his morning radio show. - Yeah. - And then I just watched and he knew everything he knew the light angles. He would do like, no, this needs to be ready. - Wow, so highly detailed. - Highly detailed. If something he'd production wasn't ready, he'd be like, you've had all week to do it. We are on the day of the show. It's not ready. - Sort out, guys. - Yeah. And you know, you know, he had this reputation for shouting at people, I'm like, I'm sorry. This is my production company and my name. And this is what's going on. - Yeah. - This biggest show I'm like, you know. - Yeah. You need to have everything ready and I quite totally agreed with him on that. So, but, so I find it quite sad that, you know, he's not particularly, you know, he, that I didn't get invited for the reunion show at all. - Wow. - Yeah. - Really? - That surprised me. - I know, really weird. - So you're not going on his podcast then? - No, he's not invited me. I did reach out to him actually. I reached out about, 'cause I'm doing, I'm curating this art show for Nicky. - Which I can't wait to hear more about. - Yeah. And Nick did every single album cover, like of the generation, especially of TFI. And I was like, oh, he'd be great as a guest. And secondly, it's 30 years actually now, this October. - Yeah. - That I was on this show. - So what a laugh would that be? - Yeah. - To go on. - We could discuss all the, that kind of thing. And all the bands that played on, you know, Nicky can did all their videos and albums, like Oasis. - Yeah. - But the suggestion didn't go down well then. - No, he said no. - He said no. - They said no, they were busy, too busy. - Too busy to have you on on the third year. - Yeah. - Do you think that comes back from, it's interesting you led from that with, you became the gorgeous girl, became the big thing. Do you think that's probably reminiscence of that like still 30 years later? I mean, seriously. - Yeah. - I think he's done quite well for himself. I just, yeah, I know. I'm actually quite hurt, I'm disappointed by that. I think it's a bit sad because that was really something that was really important to me. And, you know, I grew up with that. And I just don't understand, don't really understand why, really. - Yeah, no, it's interesting, isn't it? It's, you know, you would see it as so, you know, and you try and logically find the rationale behind it. And I guess like, you know, I guess for me, I think gosh, you know, that even with still having all of that history and, you know, still having, you know, been a huge part of that and where it was at that time. - Yeah, to be completely erased from that. - It is hurtful. - It really is hurtful. - Yeah. - But at least you're here. You're on this podcast. - I'm here, so. - And that's all that matters, you know. - Exactly, exactly. - It's interesting that, you know, when we talk about the chase of Maure and, you know, obviously I think people, you know, fame is a big thing, you know, where everybody wants to be seen. But then you're talking to us about the reality of what that comes with, you know, and then coming out, you know, obviously in 2003, you won stars in our lives, which like phenomenal like congratulations. - Yeah, that was, that actually was, that was validation and I was very proud of that because that was singing live. - Yeah. - And the audience voted and everything. So I was, that was really, that wasn't a really good experience, really good experience. I did not expect to win. - You didn't expect to? - No, 'cause Toya was in it as well. - Oh yes, of course, yeah, yeah. - I think she was a bit myth just now. (laughing) - There's a pattern here. (laughing) But we noticed this, there's like, you know. - Well, this is the thing, you see, you get very pigeonholed in, - Right. This is a problem with the UK, and this is what my problem was. So, I actually went to the Guildful of Music and Drama, right? I played the violin. I played the Royal Abbot Hall when I was first 11 years old, and then I did the solo 12 years old. I was like a child prodigy, I was really good. Fennomenal. I had a scholarship at the Guildful of Music, sang everything. Also got asked, okay, sounds really bad. I kept going off at record deals, but I did. And I was, you know, signed and had development deals going on, but I sounded a bit like Debbie Harry, so I was meant to be the new Debbie Harry. But people didn't know, nor did they ask, nor did they care about any of this, because once you did, we're gorgeous girl. Yeah. And also, at the time we're doing last mags, that's who you are. And then you are not allowed to have anything else. Nowadays, I think there's much more room for that. So I'm like, Suki Waldemann. Is it Waldemann? Suki Waldemann? Yes, it is, yeah, yeah. Yeah, like, okay, so she, I'm really proud of her, because she was a model, it girl kind of thing. Yeah. Copyed my hair, obviously. Ah! Because I was the first one, but she had hair cut. Let's not let, just say, ah! Ah, named it. Show. And it was longer, right? And we have very similar clothing styles. But she, I love it. Because she's, once she's gone and done this pop career, huge pop career, and she's like, she's, you know, she's good. She's not amazing, but she's great, great performer, and does her acting. I would not have been allowed to do that. Yeah, I agree. I just wasn't allowed to do that the way she's been. So I'm really happy for women and her generation, because they've managed just to crack that. And now be allowed to be more than just one thing in the pigeonhole. And I'm sure she had to fight for it and work hard. But she did it. So, and she's done it cool, like she did the indie thing. Yeah, very cool. I was doing the indie thing, and they just want me to be a pop princess. I turned half of that down as well. Because I think when I would do cheesy pop songs, I'm totally indie girl. So, but, and you know, Suki writes her stuff. So good on her. I like, well, you know, I love her. I love her. She's me. Oh, she's me. She's your, like, prodigy. Yeah, like, she doesn't know. I've never met her, but she's done. Who knows? I wanted to do. She did it. So I'm really proud. Wow, it's amazing. Like it's phenomenal. Like it's, when you look back and like you think about all of the things now that, you know, you have turned down. I know you said that some of the things probably, you know, were at the time probably you had this dream of kind of like, you know, finding the husband and doing all of those things. And, you know, and then you had this muse you like, and I actually had a, I was the same. I grew up playing the piano. Did you? Yeah. And I was like, and then I ended up in a 30-year career in events. It's amazing how we just kind of, you know, if the pianist never shows up, you know, you can fill in. Really, there you go. This is always the way. And it's like one minute playing, like, you know, Rachmaninoff. And then the next thing, you know, running these huge events. But like, like your career in your start of your life in a music, was that, did you, did you envisage yourself continuing? And then was there like a, like, what was the moment when you were like, okay, no, I have to do something different? Yeah, no, actually, totally. My mom, Lesser, my mom was like, you're going to be a violinist. Wow. Because I was really good. And I think she was just, she made me practice. Oh, Rudeau, which is good, right? She's got mum's game. Oh, good, I have scales again, you know, not quite with the ruler that, but, you know, it was I had to practice. But I think because I was really good, she really pushed me. And I think she pushed me to do that. For example, I'm very good at sport. I was not allowed to be in the netball team. In case I broke a finger. Right. In case you broke a finger. Yeah, because of the violin. Oh, my gosh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can do sports. Oh, and I love sports. So, and I think I was kind of pushed very much direct or directed very much into that. And my godmother actually said, well, what do you really want to do? And I said, well, I love fashion. And so she was like, oh, well, do you want to, I can get you a school, like, job school holiday job, but Vogue, and I'm brilliant. She's like, great. And that's when I actually got spotted by the bookings editor, Joe Matthews. And that's how I got to be a model. And then I started at 15. Wow. So yeah, it's amazing. My mum was not happy about that. I bet she wasn't. Yeah, just as my mum wasn't happy. And it's crazy, isn't it? How, you know, and thank god we, you know, I guess that's the benefit of today, you know, like, you know, kids they can really do what they, you know, want to do, right? Like it should be following your dreams. So I've been studying psychology quite a lot because part of this are wellness and life coaching work that I do now is particularly geared with the psychology of it. And they say between the ages of five and nine or something or four and nine that what you are really loving doing at that stage, that's kind of where your career should really be. It's something around that. Did you not know that? Yeah, so that's fascinating because when you think back to like, because I guess that is the time that, you know, all of the systems are starting to come online. Is that why I think I believe so. Yeah, so I mean, it might be slightly older like, but it's something that to 12 or 13, it's that period of time, what you were passionate about is actually kind of really something you should be doing. And so if you're doing something completely different, I mean, if you're doing this now, so it's kind of performance. Yes, it is, it's creativity, it's performance, it's still the same. It's not, you know, and you know, it's just not playing a piano. It's just not playing a piano. Or violin. No, exactly. And I'm doing, like, I always was always a painting or doing art. Right. And now I'm actually, you know, doing art therapy coaching. Yeah. So I've kind of gone back into creativity, creativity and feel very comfortable and very happy in it. Yeah, isn't that interesting? And you've done your kind of like 360 kind of like turn it as to where you are. Because obviously your father was in art, right? Yeah, exactly. And I saw a lot of your, you know, I saw that article about you having to, you know, you're used all your rent to go and buy the frames and that really helped him to kind of like, you know, to establish him as himself. After he had died, yeah, yeah, I was like, because I need you to know if there was any point in continuing in it. Yeah, we did. And we had the rent money and I took a bit of a gamble and luckily it paid off. And I never thought I'd be end up running the whole estate either. Because my dad was very absent in my life. Right. So, but it was kind of like, oh, this art, you know, and it's, and because it's considered brilliant and academically, you know, been revered. And there's, you know, it's not, it's been, not, I wouldn't say easy, but it's very well received because it is brilliant and it's, there's works and museums, international museums. Yeah. You know, and we worked very hard with, I wrote very, very hard looking after the estate. It's, it's actually a real pleasure being around the arts. Yeah. Yeah, I was also, but I loved fashion and muse, you know, so I've done everything within realms of it. But art, going back to art now is interesting. And also, I think when I got behind the scenes of things, when I left, as we talk about, leaving celebrity, you know, I helped create one of the first digital music, digital music companies. Wow, amazing. And that, so then I got on the other side of recording. Yeah. And I started looking after artists. Yeah. So because I knew what I was talking about. So I think if you're on one side or the other, it's just where you feel the most comfortable. But I also did a lot of on-camera work there. Right. So you still continue to do that? Yes, because it was brilliant, because I was writing it myself. Yes, yes. Like this, you see, I should do podcasts. You should do podcasts. Because you can just do it. Yeah, you can just do it. You know, like it's true, it's true. Now it's all coming around. Yeah, it will come, it always comes for sale. Exactly, it always does come for sale. Right. And I saw, so that you wrote, you know, you talked a lot about your career in the media and the way that they treated women. And then you did a documentary around that. Like, how did that kind of, how was that perceived? And where did that go to? If you're still watching this episode and you haven't subscribed, please hit the subscribe button below before you continue watching. Well, it was the women, yeah, women in the media, you know, I think it's changed quite a lot now. I'm not so sure in England, because I haven't been here. Yeah. But it's, I think in the States, I think they're much tougher. Probably because I have to assert them, because they are against men the whole time. And yeah, it's just a different, I think it's just a different, mentality, yeah. And it always will be. But I think that they are definitely again now that there's a lot more with the younger generation. There is a lot more of an acceptance of certain standards now. Yeah. So it's quite, it's just an interesting concept. Like, as I was saying, again, I'm with Sukey Waterhouse kind of thing, you know. I think slowly things are sliding to change. - Yeah, I think the world is definitely having that kind of, you know, we're having a moment, right, like where everything is changing, you know, and it's, you know, we're back when you were doing loaded and some of the magazines you were doing, everything was imprinted then, you know, and now everything's so online and so digital. - Yes. - You know, and it's such a dramatic shift from where we've, we've ever been. - I know, and I'm not sure that I think it's great to be fair. - No. - No, I don't, like certain things are uncertain, things are, I like print. - Yeah. - I mean, yeah, did you see the devil wears Prada too? - I have seen it. - Right. Okay. - Tell us what's your review, your honest review. - I searched on that, and I'm just sitting like, yep, yep, yep, when Miranda's going, and who there's no magazine pages and how can you tell you know all that I was going, I agree, it's now this stupid, everything's online. They have to change it a million times. - Yep. - I'm sorry, influences, why? Why? No, I think, and it's like, it's like, anybody, like they're putting what, 160 something, thousand songs on Spotify a day. - Whatever, it would be the stats are. - Everybody thinks they can be a singer, and AI, and now they're doing it with AI rubbish, right? So it's going to be even worse. Nothing original is going to come up. So the irony is, musicians, if you can actually play an instrument and perform, you are going to be rarer now than this rubbish music that's going out there. - Yeah. - Because you actually can perform, 'cause you can't replace live music, and people can actually play instruments. So ironically, the fact that you play the piano, and I can play the violin, we will always work, 'cause we're going to start duet. - Yeah, totally. - I'm down, I'm down. - 'Cause we've still got that baby, so. - We've still got it. - And other people can't, so. - I know, and that's the thing, is I always remember, actually, the violin was always my favorite. - Was it? - Like to play with the guitar always. I think they just so well, don't they? - They do, I know, so let's talk about duet. - Let's do it. - Let's do it. - In 20 years, that's going to be us in a restaurant. - There'd be no swimming in there, yeah. (laughing) - It's so true, though. - I think AI is just kind of like taken over, like, your world. - And it's going to, and it's, I think it's a certain way, so I work with, I do art therapy with Neurodubberman. - I remember you saying, which is incredible. - Yeah, and it's absolutely incredible. - I was talking to this, well, he doesn't actually usually talk with bless him, but he just, someone says something about AI, he just looks up against. The problem with AI is the people are not putting the right prompts into the AI. If they only knew how to write the right prompts, then AI would be very useful to them. And I actually thought about it and went, "Actually, that's really, well, roll said." And it's quite true. - Yeah, prompts are important. - 'Cause if you're just running rubbish into it, you're not going to get much help. - Yeah. - But it is really, really helpful. - It is, yeah. - If, when you do learn, people actually should get now taught, I don't know if they are, but how, actually, to use AI to help you, because it's not going to replace everybody. It cannot replace-- - No, yeah. - It can't, so things it can't do, you know, like it would never do anything. - No, I mean, I don't know how long it may be. So everyone's getting freaked out, going, "Oh, it's going to take over." Yeah, well, it will, but it's still, like, you know, gosh, I used it for things, but it still takes me like three hours to get something done. - Yeah. - Because I have to keep checking it, or reprompting it. Or, you know-- - Or rewrite it. Or rewrite it. - Or rewrite it. - Yeah. - It puts, like, so, I noticed the AI, one of my bookwares is, it always puts a hyphen everywhere. - It just does weird stuff. And then you have, and so you kind of end up editing the AI. However, it's probably taking a short time, then, like, instead of, like, a day, it takes you three hours. - Yeah, yeah. - But it still takes three hours. - It still takes three hours for Godless, you know, just from the whole kind of having to go back over everything. And so you're using that in your-- Like, you're using that in your-- - Because you teach art therapy, don't you, which is inquiries. Like, tell us what art therapy actually is. Do I think a lot of, especially British people, I mean, we have no idea what-- - No, I know it's big in the US, I know it's huge. - Yes, and I, it should be here. And actually, when my mom was in hospital with Alzheimer's, that's what actually gave me the idea to do it, 'cause I used to take in coloring books to deal with her. - Right. - Because I ran out of things to say. And, you know, so we were a bit bored. So we just sat there and put coloring books and color in. But it's very good for the cognitive use-- - Functions. - Functions to be, especially with dementia and Alzheimer's going inside the lines. And that's actually when they do the test, that's how they can judge how good you are. And also copying, if someone can copy something as well, is that's another test that they do. - Wow. - And it's kind of, it's a different beast, but obviously with neurodivergent people, again, cognitive being with able to draw within the lines. Can they copy coloring in? - Yeah. - Do they go over the lines? And so I kind of, I started consulting with this charity in the American Los Angeles. - Right. - And then they needed someone to come in and do the art. And I said, well, I'm actually trained. I can come and do this. And that's been just a new experience, because what you find then is there's all different levels of ability. So I just thought I'd be able to go in and go right, so today we're going to do something called a Zendangle. And so a Zendangle. - Zendangle. - Right, so it's like brilliant. They actually, you would know it if you saw it. It's usually black and white drawings, and they're within a tile. And it's straight lines, wavy lines dots. And you can have, and you can color in the sections. And you're basically doodling. - Right, okay. So they do doodling. - And there's nothing is wrong. So you never erase anything, because it's what you're doing. It's like yoga for some minutes, letting your mind be distracted, just wonder, and chill. But you're within the confinement of a certain like a tile size. - Right. - And it's what you find with a lot of, with certain people with disabilities, or they cannot create with an empty space. They don't know where to start. So it's really interesting. So you know, I have to accommodate to each individual. And some might find that okay. And some might not. There is too much for them to even do the first line. So I'll draw it in for them and then show them. And others, I've drawn some lines. And so this amazing guy, so sweet. And I'll do, so I did a bit of it for him. And they went back and he just replicated it on the other side, mirrored. - Wow. - Yeah, I was like, you are going to be the best. Right, you're my forger from now on. - So what does this, so what does this, what does it do to the brain? Is it a form of healing? Is it? - It's a very good for stress relief for a start, concentration, stress relief. While you're doing that, it raises other thoughts. It's, you're coloring it itself. It's actually something that I encourage a lot of executive type people to do. You can just sit there and do it all in color in because again, stress relief, it really is incredible form of stress relief. - It takes us back to childhood, right? - It is, it is actually. - Where we learn from colors and different things - Exactly, exactly. - It is basically, yeah, bringing out your inner child. - Yeah. - And that is a really beautiful thing and a good thing to do. And it creates happiness and your cortisol levels go down and it's an amazing form of stress relief. So I've been working on a program called The Art of Zen that I've created. Originally, it was for high stress, you know, executive types. - Yeah. - And then now I've moved into the neurodivergent, but also I want to do with elderly people with dementia. So it's a program that I'm continuing, I'm evolving and it's really fascinating now working with so many different groups. So, and I want to bring that to England as well because I just saw, you know, and then NHS, they don't have the money to defend it, you know. And so I love that I want to do a charity that basically can create art boxes for say, each elderly wards or come into homes and provide equipment, you know, just pencils and coloring it. For people to be able to just do that with their, you know, families come in, you can all sit around, you just have to talk. - Yeah. - 'Cause sometimes people just don't want to come in and talk in the hospital, do they? They're like, oh, don't want to go and visit it. - 'Cause it's too traumatic in the first place. - Oh, yeah, I always remember. And I'm really, I'm really, I'm just gonna talk. Okay, well, let's all color. (laughing) - So how did you get from showbiz to doing art therapy? - I knew, I know. - Who knew? - I knew what your life's gonna do. - What a fascinating career after like, you know, kind of like from everything that you did from, you know, TFI days and then the jungle and then, you know, like starting your eyes to like, and then running off to LA and, you know, - I knew there was more to my life than just doing that. And that's kind of, I think that's been the thing there's like, I, I, you know, I knew that. I was more that I wanted to do. That's why I liked doing execs to producing or being a bit like writing my own shows and with the music company because it's like I'm using my brain. Yeah. And I'm being creative. Yeah. And then this whole, I do not know, I don't know how this all, I fell into this, but I love it. And I think. And you're giving back at the end of your day. Yeah, giving back. And that's always mean something. Yeah. I just heard Esther Rance. She just died yesterday. Yeah. I just heard that. And I did work a lot of work with Childline. Wow. Okay. Yes. She actually wrote one of my visa letters for America. I had the pleasure of knowing her. And I volunteered for Childline. Wow. Okay. Because when I was doing I'm septic. Because for me, I've always always thought if you have that power, you give back and you use it. Yeah, hugely. So that was always my kind of thing that I was that actually, that's one thing I miss about Liberty is the fact sometimes I'm like, I could really do something better if I, you know, had a bit of a name again. Wow. I mean, there's still time. You know, there's still time. Get on Chris Evans's book. Not to trigger that point again. But you know, we're not to not to poke the bag. Yeah. But so yes, that's, but I, you know, I am doing good things that I feel like are good. And I just want to do more. Yeah. I mean, don't, well, that's a whole lot of this podcast is about this addiction to work. Right. I think there are two always two parts of life isn't it? There's, I think there's the consuming parts. And then there is the giving part. And I think it'll definitely in the giving because, you know, would you say that you were addicted to the fame like attention when you were young, even though you kind of didn't want it? No, I was really introvert. So I actually hated attention. Right. Interestingly. So that might be why I actually freaked out. You just made me really just realize that. Yeah, we always get, we always get a piffonies on this show. I was very, very shy. Yeah, possibly quite insecure. Yes, you know, one parent family, yeah, father gone, yeah, single, single mom, that's why I wanted the security and all that stuff. But I was very shy. And I think that is maybe why I just did not like all the attention. But and I, you know, I was a performing and violinist and stuff. I don't know. Yeah, it's weird, isn't it? I'm addicted. It was I did. I really, you know, I don't not like it. I'm not saying that. Yeah, I did like it. And I do like a little bit of attention. Yeah, because you just said you like to go back to it. You know, it's like, you know, but for the better this time, I mean, not the better, but for like, I wouldn't wait to enhance your therapy that you're doing with. I would like to do it on my terms. On my terms. We'd all like to do a lot of things on our terms. That's what I like. I would like to do some. Yeah, I would like to do a matter. So on my terms. On my terms and do stuff that I want to do and not what, you know, not been pigeonholed and stuff. So, but there's not a lot to be really out there now. So yeah, no, it's different. I think reality is obviously having its moment, isn't it? You know, it's always had its moment. Yeah, but now it's kind of like everything seems to be like on TikTok or Instagram and YouTube is kind of like wherever everything seems to sit now, you know, which is, which is crazy. And television is also kind of like, you know, it's, it's by, it says, it's by the buy, you know, and it's streaming and all of these modern day platforms. I am so happy that I grew up in a mirror where you had to go knock for your mate, you know, like you didn't have to, you had to memorize their phone number because we didn't have mobile phones. Yeah, right. You know, that it wasn't, it wasn't, we weren't, didn't have the luxury of an iPhone or a Samsung or whatever your choice of mobile operation is. Final facts. I've still got mine. Have you really? Well, I'd love to have a flick through that. I'm sure we could find some gossip in there. It's really funny. I look through the face. I was like, oh, my God. I've got, I've got a faxes from boyfriends when I was a model because years to, like, who are you dating at time? A model. Like we used to like, because we had the model agency that, you know, models always went out with the models. Yeah. And I found faxes because then you'd leave town and so you'd have to fax the agency to keep in touch. Wow, it's not funny. It's not funny. Yeah. And you just call each other at the agency because it was cheaper. Oh, my God. Yeah. Now you are taking me back. And we were talking like years ago. This is crazy. Yeah. It's amazing. Isn't it how that kind of era is? And we thought that that was so great at the time. Yeah. I'm going into the office and there was a road. We had a row of fax machine for events. And they just used to come in, reddish people used to fax back everything. So funny. It was an online form that you filled in your, you know, registration incentive fact over and make that noise. Yeah. And you call someone and it would just get that weird noise. God, they've got their fax machine. See, the kids don't want them missing today. No, they just, you know, it's like such, it's such a, it's such a, yeah, the era has completely surpassed where we were, you know. I know. And then in England, do they still use them? Because this is hilarious in the states. I go to the doctors and they go, they have they have they faxed it over yet. And I'm like, what do you mean faxed it? You're still, can they fax the results over? I'm like, I'm sorry. Say that again. I don't even know if I don't know whether I think we do operate still. I think doctors must still use fax. Okay, calm. Please tell me that. This is so bad. The day's technology is going to have an MRI, but I have to fax the results to you. Yeah. I mean, it's like, it's just quicker to take a photo snap on your phone, isn't it? I know. Text you it right over. Yeah, we have moved on. Thank God, you know, like, we can do brain surgery, keyhole surgery, but we'll fax you the results. That will fax you the results. Yeah, it's like, something might be wrong there. You know, we were talking about it on a recent podcast we did with a glamour model. And we were talking about how the day and age of like, you know, like, back then, glamour models and page three models were like in everybody's front room, you know, and literally, you know, in your face, scoops the button. Oh my god. And then, you know, we were talking about that and how, you know, that era from print, I don't know, you're about your store, obviously, a print fan and you know, and how, you know, the tabloids kind of really did, you know, drive everything in the way that people were perceived. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that again was a problem for me as well, because I do, I do look at some of these interviews right at the beginning. And I was like, I'm just going to be so honest and brutally, you know, and like, and people that are just going to, you know, I just want people to know the real me and I'm going to be honest. And then I'd really go, I never said that. I never said that. I never said that. I never said that. And I'll like, well, hang on, where, what happened here? So I learned quite quickly. But, um, yeah. Yes, media, media, you know, that's the whole thing a bit. It's meant to find the most enticing story and to totally make it up and or totally make it up. There we go. And they just run with it, you know, so the honesty probably is as, you know, as lovely it was at the time, probably, you know, just went out the window. Yeah, very silly and very nice. But then that's before I had a proper agent or anything else. I just had that when I started doing. Yeah. But I used to be really good because I'd get these calls and they, they'd want to do an interview and I'd call TFI and say, I've been asked to do this interview. Do you mind me doing it? So I was super respectful. It wasn't just like, I was like, oh, I'm going to be so famous and I'm going to do all these interviews. And yeah, I was like, no, I was like, mate, you know, you okay? I don't want to be rude or disrespectful because I wanted the job, basically. And they were always like, oh no, go ahead, Catalina, it's fine. They were okay if you have the press. Yeah, because I'm doing them press, aren't I? Yeah, completely. And all press is good. All press is good press. Yeah. So they didn't mind. Yeah. So that's why again, I'm a bit like, that's a bit weird, like going back to, why don't you want me, Chris? Hi. But I'll back to the podcast. Yeah. You can see this is really hard. You know, like, it's like, you know, for sure. And then being back in the UK must make it even worse. Trust when you're in the UK or when you're in the US, I'm like, well, no, I also said I'm going to be over. So it's recent. Rejection is hard, isn't that? Scab doesn't come off yet. I mean, rejection, I think it's like, yeah, it's something we should all be used to, like, like, I mean, clearly not you, because you just walked away from everything and everybody's chasing. No, I feel like I know what do you remember? So that used to be ugly votes. Sorry, love, you're not my type. He's doing that to me. He's rejecting me. Sorry, Chris. You've got to turn it. You have to turn it. You have to do a trum and turn everything to your favour. Oh, no. You know, you really do. Because otherwise it's, you know, you've got to turn it to your advantage. Oh, no. So don't worry. - And you're here on this podcast, what more do you want? - Exactly. - Thank you, Garrett. - Thank you. - You've got the new Chris Evans, just without ginger hair. - That would so much better as well. - Listen, you said that now, mate. (laughing) - Mind you, he's just like, has he got white hair now? - I think he has. - Yeah. - Yes, I think he has. - Yeah. - I just, he just does talked about, like, men's health issues and stuff. (sniffing) - Chris Moils. (laughing) - I mean, but these are things that are like, you know, they are starting to come, the UK is so far behind the U.S. Let's face it. - It's a good 10 years behind. - You know, it's so far behind the U.S. It kind of like, you know, we are, you know, like, therapy here, you know, I mean, it's bad enough with like, you know, mentioning normal therapy. So I'm sure with art therapy, it's going to get white. - Right. - For people and they're doing that. - No, no, I know. - What is she on about? - I know. - It's like, you know, LA is a really LA thing. - That's exactly my nephew said that. - It goes art therapy and it's so LA. - It's so LA. - It's not, it's real things. - It's so LA, isn't it? It's like, you know, but-- - No, it is. - I think these are things are really important and you've got a show coming up next week, which is amazing. - Yes, I do, yes, and that is not art therapy, but it is there really because they don't. But yes, Nick Egan, who, you won't know who he is. Most people won't know. But if you own an album, like in Excess, are Oasis, Kylie Manoke, he did Kylie's, like the old, so you know, we had the first album when she had that horrible hat on with her curly hair speaking out, but the first one. And then the second one, she suddenly became, like, the sex bomb when she was dating my mother. And he shot the album cover with her in that white shirt. - Wow. - And then in, like, looking super glamour's on in the back. And he did step back in time video. - Amazing. - Yeah. - That's phenomenal. And he was going out with Michael, and Michael was his best maid at the time. So he did the In Excess kick album cover, which is like, so lucky. And it needs you tonight, like the best album and best video ever. So he did those. He did Bob Dylan's album. - Right, wow. - He did going back even further that he was one of the punks. He was Vivian Westwood's muse. - Amazing. - Went with Malcolm McLaren in New York when the whole hip hop thing took off. Mark Jacobs, he went with Mark Jacobs. Mark Jacobs actually talks about him in his new doctorate with Sophia Coppola, actually. - Fantastic. - I was like, it was what I was watching. I was like, yeah, it's like, yeah, and I called my friend Nick Eagan. And I'm like, hey, I was like, well, Nick. - Well. - And he was like, I didn't know that. - Yeah, it was like, he's responsible. He is iconic and he is responsible for our generation. Our imagery, imagery we grew up with, MTV. - MTV, yeah. - But then he did six Oasis videos. - Yeah. - So what he's done is he's actually, he directed Live Forever, the American version. And he's done an art piece 'cause he's an amazing artist and painter as well. And it's based on Live Forever. And in the video, the American video of Live Forever, he has Liam sitting in an office and all around it, a photos and it's dead iconic people like Elvis, Bobby Charlton's even. - Whitney. - No, Whitney's. - Whitney's not in it, it was so dead out. - The guy was a punk. We're not having it. - Oh yeah, but I can't hear you. I missed that part. - Oh, Whitney. (laughing) But he has all these, and it's the piece. So the art piece has, it's really cool. It's got, it's live forever. And it's basically, you know, high icons and how rock stars live on forever. And so the shows at Conversantum Hotel, which is great 'cause it's a rock and roll hotel, so I can't like it in such a laugh. And he's also got this other work that he's done called "I'm Not There," which is about his punk days. - Wow, amazing. - And I'm doing a Q&A with him and we're gonna talk about, you know, who he was best mates with and his punk days with Vivian Westwood through to, he shot the Joran Joran ordinary world video. - Fantastic, amazing. - And that's just the wedding albums now. - Wow. - Joran Joran, I've got, yeah, the stamps have been made with Joran Joran, oh my God, that was amazing. - So you know he's done pretty well. - He's done well for himself, yeah. - Exactly. So it's really interesting, yeah. So we're doing, and there's this documentary about him and they've we've added in 10 minutes of extra footage about the videos he shot for Oasis. - Yeah. - But it's like a chronology of what he's done and achieved. And so for our eras, and also I wanted to do this for new generation 'cause they're not, they don't even know what a record cover is. - No, that doesn't say they have probably, you know, they, yeah. 'Cause everything's on Spotify, you know, the 160 on 1000, and download you talked about. - No, Galaga actually is quoted, he was saying something in a documentary about how he had to explain to his daughter. There were meetings about the record cover, you know. - And the artwork. - And the artwork that would go into it. I guess it's probably still the online version of that, but you know, in your way, who knows, who knows. - I know. - It's a thumbnail that probably goes on. - Exactly. - So that's probably you. - Do you remember, I had pop-up records. - Yeah, I remember the part, yeah. - Like the albums. - Yeah. - Oh my gosh. - They collect the tools now. - They collect the tools. - Yeah. - Oh no. - Yeah, phenomenal. And now we get a little thumbnail. - Yeah, ugh. - It's, yeah, it's just like completely-- - It's a different thing. - Different world. - Yes, so yeah, so what I'm, so I've curated it, and I've put the whole show together. It's my first time doing this. It's a bit, it's a bit-- - It's a no pressure. - No pressure, like terrifying. - It's gonna be amazing, I believe. - I was like, God, actually, this is love. (laughing) I'm trying to do the first. - You know my world now. A little bit. - I know. Well, I'd say, I think boutique events I could, 'cause I've done it. I've created a lot of our exhibition. - Yeah. - But I always had help. But sitting there doing it by yourself, it's a bit like (groaning) but luckily, I have a really good relationship with Karma Sanctum and say, "Mark for Lately owner." And his wife had been great. They were like, I was like, I was hosting this, because-- (laughing) - You need to know-- - You need to take care of us. - But I need some moral support, yeah. And he said, someone here is gonna have to do the guest list. I am not gonna do everything, so yeah. So thank God for them. So they've really come in and saved my day. So, and the exhibition's gonna be up in the bar area. - Amazing. - As well for three months as well. - I was supposed to be there for three months in touch with my husband on this session. - Yeah, and his prints, though. - It's affordable. - Yeah, of course, yeah. - It's affordable. - And there's a great venue for it to be held in as well. - You know, it's like such a, as you said, it's a rock 'n' roll. - It's a rock 'n' roll place. - You know, place and it's-- - Yeah, you can come and see Nick's art and hang over to have a drink and hang out in the rock 'n' roll bar. - Amazing. - So. - But yeah. - And how do you feel about, well, how do you feel about being back in London after? 'Cause you said you haven't been back since December last year. - No, exactly. I'm so happy to be back. I hate not. I think I'm gonna have to be back at least three times a year. So I'd like to have more projects to work on over here. - Yeah. - It's like, you know, it's kind of like something I'm like, "Oh, I feel bad I'm leaving my class at the back in LA." They were like, "You're going away?" And I'm like, "It's three weeks." I think of it as next semester. I'll be back for next semester. Okay, so let's think of this at the three week. You got holiday and we'll start to stop the new semester and they're like, "Okay." Because I'm like, "I can't leave them. They depend on me." - Yeah, and of course, of course, especially when you're a coach and you're a teacher, and you're, you know, and they rely so heavily on here. But now I guess you get to bring all of that and curate it together with-- - I have to say it's a bit like I come back to be a bit more glamorous over here. - A bit more glamorous. - Maybe it's quite-- - We do have that. The UK does have that. They do know how to ramp up the glamour and how to-- - I do. - You know, we go to a few events and be in Central London and get dressed up. - It's quite nice. It's just quite nice just to dress up every day rather than, you know. - Be in your class. - Oh, yeah, and I ride horse, you know, I have my horse over there. - Yeah, yes, yes, yes. - So I'm usually just really grubby and horsey, horsey outfit. (laughing) Shout out, and it's so hot in LA. Shout change, go do teach a couple of days where I do two days a week teaching, and then the rest-- (laughing) - I mean, I love it from loaded magazine to horse wear. It's just, you'll be on the town and country from beige before log. I can see it. - I should be. - You should be. - To the manor born darling. - To the manor born. (laughing) - I was in horse and hound on the back page once. - Oh, you were? - Yes, they're on a horse. - No, I was, I was with a couple of show jumpers hanging out at the bus. - Of course you were. - It's more serious to go. Actually, there was a possibly one of my favorite magazines to be in. - I bet it was. I bet it was. - Yeah, I'm in horse and hound, doesn't it? - Yeah, that takes me back to that. What was that movie that that was in? Horse and hound? Oh, is it Notting Hill? - Notting Hill? - Isn't it Hugh Grant, Notting Hill that says about? - Of a problem. - He's the editor of Newton anyway. - Oh, right, go. - Completely bypassed that. - That is quite funny. - Well, I do hope that that, I do hope that that kind of, you know, does come to. - That would be nice, doesn't it? - It would be lovely. Lovely to see you back on, you know, back in the horse and hound. Even if it's, I wasn't saying, even if it's our normal digital country life. - I know. - Well, my other house family are in the Cotswalt, so we're off there this weekend. - Amazing. I love the Cotswalt, my father lives all that way, so. - Yeah, it's such a beautiful, and if the weather hangs out here, then it's some. - It's a perfect life, like a bit, a little bit of L.A., a little bit here, and then Spain as well. - And then look, are you going to Spain? - Well, I've got my Spanish nationality now. - Ah, amazing. Gosh, you really are international. - I am getting all around. All around the globe. No wonder they're going to miss you in L.A. I know. So I just, I think that's, you know, we're talking about more people. You know, here's the thing. There's a really good exercise to do. And you write down all the things you want to do. And then you write down the reasons why you want to do them. And then actually, when you come to the conclusion of what you really want, for example, someone might say, I want to get this really good job. Why do you want to get this really good job? It's going to make me more money. Why is it going to make you more money? Because I need to look after my family, blah, blah, blah. Okay, so actually what you really want to do is have something you just want to be able to look off to your family. So you don't actually really want that job, particularly you want a reason. Yeah. So what you think you think you want, you actually don't want it's the ultimate goal. I worked out. I actually don't because I'm like, I want to live in Spain. And no, no, I actually want to have financial freedom and the abundance to be able to do travel at my will without having to worry about it. Yeah. And be able to go to Spain, to London, wherever I want freely and not have to worry financially and about anything about, you know, leaving bills or not working. That's what I was. That's what financial freedom is. I don't want a big house in every country. Why would I want that? You have to go to waste the money. Yeah. What are you going to do with it? Now, I just want to have that that is my luxury of being able to do travel and at will without without stress, without having any, so it's financial freedom. Yeah. It's what I want. And isn't that interesting? Because like, you know, what we think we want is often never the answer. You know, and that was one of the reasons why I started this podcast was to explore these reasons of why we are, you know, we, for me, there's two ponds, right? We were swimming over here in like, you know, more letters after our name, you know, more houses, more cars, the upgrade on the car or the next mobile phone. And like, over here, it's really where we should be in the more service, more love, more compassion. No, that, you know, you know, all of these things, more training for our teams. Yes. You know, if we're in a corporate role, you know, less ambition and more support. Yeah. And like, and how we're always over here swimming in this pond and actually we're swimming in the wrong pond. Absolutely. The wrong pond. You know, totally, and you know, I do that as well. It's like, you know, we were talking about LA. So you have this, like, you have, you think of LA, the house, the pool that that is, and I have classic LA. I have very wealthy friends who have that and good for them. But the upkeeper that is huge. Yeah. So I have other friends that actually just say, I'm selling that and just downgraded to or downside, not downgrade to like an apartment, for example. Because just, you know, yeah. And I, you know, when I was making, like, doing financially very well, you know, you end up spending more money. And if when that ends, because it does, not by choice, you know, say you get cut or something, you cannot keep those bills up. And so it's very difficult to downsize. It takes a while. And that's how financial issues are. So, you know, it's, it's like, the more you have, the more you spend, the more it costs, it's going to cost you at the end of the day. Yeah. And I think I've really, I have to do my every day. I do my, I am so grateful for, and my gosh, I have a lovely husband. So I'm so grateful for that. You know, I've been married 19 years together, 21 years. Wow. Congratulations. Thank you. I have my gorgeous pussycat. I have my purebred Arabian horse that is like my dream. Yeah. How lucky am I that I've got lovely friends all around the place. I've got beautiful fun. You know, and yes, I, we've, I've had very traumatic time, losing my mom and my best, but I am so grateful of what I have. And I live in an apartment in the Hollywood Hills. It's not a huge house with a book. It's cute. And it's in a great area. And I have a horse. I mean, yeah. What? That's my dream, my childhood dream. Yeah. And then I get to travel. I'm sitting here with you. I mean, it's amazing. I'm doing beautiful, wonderful things that I love. So I, every day I do my, I am so grateful for, and again, my sign to L.A. But if you do that every morning, it just gives you, it lifts you and it gives you a better, a higher vibration. Well, she's very L.A. Hi, but it does. It's true. And the gratitude, I think, when we're grateful for the little things, like I always say this to all of my sponsors, I, you know, we exchange gratitude lists every day because it's so important. Like you said, when you're grateful for those little things, you know, that's when you really, I think, get peace of mind, you know, because when we're always on the chase of more, you know, whether it's, you know, and I think the biggest addiction we generally have right now is phones. I think, really, do you think so? I think in, in, in the younger, um, audience, it's so weird. Yeah, I think, I think that, that that is a huge issue because we spend so much time on social media and content. I'll really be back in our days. We just watched the news all the time. Yeah. Or TV, you know, like it's like, you would just watch every episode of everything. Right. And you can do that now on streaming. Yeah. I do think mobiles are one of the biggest addictions that we all have. Yeah. You know, I know something like, like I get my little alert saying, you've spent so much time on screen time to, like, no, I know it's true. It's actually they're terrible. They are terrible. It's something, I think we have to learn, you know, to like, to, like, leave and put down. And I think this is something that we are so, we've become so used to having. I know. Yeah. It's, it's kind of weird to go to bed and not have your phone kind of like close by. Yeah, you know, it's actually really true. And um, she's part of the thing I teach is, uh, one down time before bed, at least, yeah, you, you really need an hour, give yourself an hour, at least. And then you stop that screen time. I have an alert on my phone to end. It actually tells me no more screen time and wind down time. Um, and don't, don't do like, don't work. Don't sit on your computer. Um, you need to, if you want to read a book, turn the TV off, but get rid of the screen. How nice, right? Just sit in bed and read a book. Yeah. But the thing you're thinking about when you go to sleep is what you will find you'll probably will end up subconsciously dreaming about. Yeah. So that's another, I do a lot of like, um, again, thankfulness or just kind of visualisation of what I really want to happen. Right. Because then it's going to actually subconsciously go into your mind and program you during the night. Yeah. And if I'm at that, is it data stage that you go into? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. There's, yeah. Alpha Delta Delta. Yeah. And yes. And there's another one, which I can't quite remember right now. Yeah. But it's really interesting. And, um, um, you know, like, um, hip not, uh, it basically hypnotises yourself into, into creating conscious streaming. Yeah. So it's, um, yeah. So that's something else. But yes, you must not having this before you go to bed. Yeah. It's no screen time. And we all love to dooms. This is the thing. I think that's why I think it would just all got used to just doomskrolling. Yeah. You know, continually. And yes, and we've probably had our own version of it when we were, probably, you know, whatever we did, but did we? No, we didn't. No, we were taught if it was sunny outside off you'd go. Yes. You'd be outside. Yeah. And we read magazines and books. Yes. Or if they jam or like, you know, whatever the flavor was for you. But then you've got this and you're looking at, because I do, oh, that's nice. And then you start going down the rabbit hole of buying stuff and then all wanting stuff. And that is why everyone's wanting more because you're constantly bad, more, more, more. I just marketing during lockdown. I did this marketing postgraduate degree online. Wow. Amazing. Yeah. Terrifying what I learned about that is like, like, you know, there's basically everything digital now. Big brother. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're seeing it more with phones. Yeah. As soon as you've looked at one thing, you are now on everybody's radar for that. It's just terrifying. Yeah. I noticed that. Yeah. I'm not surprised. Yeah. I've worked it. I've been in marketing and events for a very long time. Yeah. I was just like horrified. Yeah. I mean, it is funny. Well, like, I really notice it when you go and pay for something and, you know, you might buy something here and then the next thing you know, you're getting like, adverts, like every shopper that's around you. And just saying it, your phone listens to you. Yeah. Yeah. All the time. All the time. All the time. And then then you get up to the relevant ad for whatever you've been talking about. Yeah. Or in like, or in your Facebook or something. Yeah. I do Facebook, some old, but Instagram, whatever. Whatever it is, whatever it is. You're not a TikTok person. No. I refuse. You refuse. I refuse. I've looked at it. I think it's boring. I don't like it. I think it's stupid. I think that I just cannot be doing with it. Do you think that's because you prefer more long form content rather than because TikToks obviously thrive. Yeah. I don't. I can't be getting like this. Like this. Like this. My brain does not. I like to actually really look at stuff and end and, you know, get understanding what I'm like. I cannot be doing that. I sat next to this girl on that, a flight and she, I like to watch movies have a drink, well, sleep, right? It's actually brilliant because it's no, I don't have anything to do with the phone. She literally did this, this, this, this, this, the whole time. But 10 hours! Yeah, that would annoy me too. 10 hours, I was like. Oh, TikTok. Yeah, yeah, on TikTok. Yeah, I mean, this is the thing, like every time I talk to, like, one of my young friends or my niece or nephew, they're like, "I want to just bought this from TikTok." And it's like, you know, it's become everything. It's become a shop, it's become a marketing platformer, you know, a gossip column that's become a, you know, all of these incredible things that. But you won't believe a lot of it. Either a lot of it's rubbish. Yeah, it is hard to differentiate. Yeah, it is. And what's AI versus what's real. Oh, my gosh, I saw that. You know, there's a whole, it's a whole new, it's a whole new world that's out there, you know? I know, exactly. It's definitely changed the way that we have to start looking at things, you know, and start understanding, like, "Is this real or isn't this, isn't this real?" I know. That's where AI is kind of like. Yeah, that is, it's going to, it's. Yeah, I know, it's all a bit. Can we just go back to the '90s? Yeah, I wouldn't be nice. Go back to having you on, you know, beautiful covers of magazines. And thank you so much for coming on today. Thank you. I love it. I love it. We could just sit here all day. I know, but it's absolutely amazing. I just looked at the time and I was like, "Gosh, has that really been happening?" Oh, shoot, it goes so quick. Yeah, no, always does. It always does. But yeah, it's been such an honour having you on here. No, thank you so much. I wish you all the best and everything you're doing. And hopefully we'll get you back in the jungle sometimes soon. Oh, never again. If you didn't enjoy swimming with crocodiles then. I know, but I did it, man. I'm like, I did it, I did it. What was your, which one, which of the, um, task was the worst for you? That one or. I only did that. You only did that. I only did that because I was, I, um, I girl-powered it so well that, um, I didn't get asked to do anything else. You didn't eat anything. No. Oh, I thought you did. No, I never had to do that. Fuck you. That's what I think I would struggle with. Yeah, I would have refused to do that. I would not have done it. Yeah. I would have been like. I'm sure how I would, I would have fester in the, in the jungle. I, you know, festival, there's no hairdryer, which would not be a good thing. Yeah. Because I realized they're heavy on that. Oh, like, you know, I got parasite. Oh, did you? Wow. Was it a shock when you came out from being like, in that environment to then suddenly you're in like, I think you were in the Versace Hotel and you're like, everything was there, you know, you were, you know, suddenly everything. You was like, beast of like. To famine. Uh, yeah, you know what was weird? No, I actually got quite into it and I actually remember saying, if I had a horse with me, I could get used to this, just run like with my horse and, you know, apart from the spiders and the snakes and everything else that can kill you in Australia. So I, from that, it wasn't awful, as I thought. However, it was a very different show, like, been in there and what the, the way they edited it was a totally different thing. Yeah. Um, and I think that's something. From the experience. Yeah, and oh my goodness, the new show now is like a totally different experience. Yeah. I mean, I was like, oh, it's like fear factor. There's no way I'd ever want to do that now. Yeah, you really do have to be fearless over it. It says creepy crawly things. That's like, gross. That's your thing. Yeah. Gross cockroaches landing on you. Yeah. Yeah, no, I think, yeah. Swim crocodiles anytime. Swim with them. Absolutely. Note it. Note to self. Like, if we ever put you back in that environment, that's what you should do. Yeah, absolutely. I was, um, I, I, Roger Moore was like, uh, such a name job. Oh my gosh. Anyway, I was talking to him once about that. Because he had to do that stunt in, um, uh, the best film. Um, what's the first film with Roger Moore? I'm trying to think about it. It's, uh, oh my gosh. I can't remember that. It's one with Solitaire in. Anyway, he has to run across and they were real crocodiles. And we were discussing crocodiles. Oh, they were real. They were real. Wow. Gosh, you didn't have a stunt double doing that. No, no, no, yeah. He said he was standing there and they're just getting closer and closer and he was like, doing himself. And you're like, I relate to that. I have been there. Exactly. That's how it all started. I mean, that is really where your fear is really tested, isn't it? It's like, yeah, you, you know, it is. You're going to sink or swim. Like it's one of the, you know, um, I just, I do, I walked across the bridge and I, mentally, I just like Lara Croft, Lara Croft. I am Lara Croft. Lara Croft, yeah. Mine never mattered, baby. Mine never mattered. It's exactly what we were talking about before we came on the show. It wasn't it? It's like, happiness is a mindset. There you go. You can do anything you want. Yeah. My mother used to say that. Yeah, you can. Power. You can be anybody you want. You can. You have the true, it's your choice to be who you want to be. You can be sad and grumpy and lonely or a horrible person. Or you can choose to not be. Yeah. And you know, your life can be really horrible. Yeah. But you can choose to work through it and become someone else and be who you want to be or aspire to be. Everybody has the choice. That is the one thing as humans we have. And that's what AI does not have. We have the freedom of choice. Yeah. That is an amazing point to finish up. Thank you so much. It's so lovely to have you on. And thank you for giving us all of your experience today. Loved it. Thank you. It's been such a pleasure. Such a pleasure. Thank you so much. Thanks, guys. Thank you for joining us on the Addiction to More podcast. I think you'll all agree what a powerful episode that's been today. Please don't forget to subscribe and find out more information in the show notes listed below. [MUSIC PLAYING]