I am Jane Doe

Hello, everyone. Welcome back to a really, really important episode of Call Her Daddy. So, if you have been on social media this week, you have most certainly seen four words everywhere. I am Jane Doe. As a woman, you probably saw those words and you knew exactly what they meant. Maybe even your body knew before your brain did. The words themselves are simple, right? But they carry the weight of countless stories we hold as women. The stories of our friends, of our sisters, of our mothers, of our grandmothers, and for many of us, our own stories. And right now, one of those stories that has come to light is forcing the country to pay attention. She was a 20-year-old student. At Cornell University, who went to a frat party one night to see a guy she thought was her friend. She eventually went upstairs with him and another fraternity brother. And it was in that room that things took an absolutely disturbing turn. And then at 142 in the morning, a message went out to a fraternity group chat saying, free pussy. Another fraternity brother responded, I fucking love you. And later, someone asked, shop still open? Let me be really clear about something. These are men talking about a woman, a human being, their classmate, their supposed friend. When Jane Doe went to Cornell's campus police three weeks later, she spent hours with an investigator giving a detailed account of what she says happened to her. And she was pretty damn clear about one thing. She told the investigator she was 100% confident she had been raped. I wanted to come on and I wanted to talk about this today because it is so important to note, it has been almost a decade since the Me Too movement first started. A decade. How the hell are we still here? Right? We have been talking about campus rape, consent, the way institutions fail. We have been talking about it for years. We have the language, we have the research, we have the tools and the resources to understand sexual violence, to help survivors and to prevent it from happening. And yet we are still having the exact same conversations. It is exhausting. And more importantly, it is infuriating. More than one in five women have experienced rape. One in five women. So every single one of us knows a Jane Doe. Many of us are Jane Doe. You know, every once in a while, a story becomes so big and it resonates with so many people that it's clear it has the power to change the way that we talk about an issue. And I think we might be witnessing one of those very moments right now. And so when I started to think about who could help us make sense of this moment, who could answer some of the questions and help us understand where do we even go from here? I immediately thought of today's guest, Dr. Kate Mann. My mom actually introduced me to Kate a few years ago. I genuinely believe she is one of the most brilliant, important feminist thinkers of our time. And she just so happens to also be a professor at Cornell University. What is up, daddy gang? It is your founding father, Alex Cooper with Call Her Daddy. Kate, you are a professor at Cornell. What does it feel like to be on campus right now? The mood is pretty grim. I think students are incredibly upset and it's really all anyone can talk about. But I will say this. I had this moment where we were all walking down to Hope Plaza where the rally was on Monday to support the students. And I was like, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't Jane Doe. And it really felt like an inspiring moment of hope to have so many students and faculty and staff members coming together. It was thousands of people. And yeah, we turned out for her, which was so great. You have written before, there's a feeling at times that protesting sexual assault on campus is a lost cause. And I think a lot of people do feel that in general, sometimes with protesting, like, is this actually going to make a difference? Does this moment of hope, moment in particular, feel any different? It does feel different to me. It feels like there has been a kind of simmering rage, frankly, on behalf of women that a lot of women were feeling and also people who just care a lot about women. And this has crystallized something and it's become something much bigger. It has a lot of momentum. It's this sense that women and girls are owed safety of a kind that we don't currently have. And so it feels like this is the moment to really demand better for ourselves, for our daughters, for our sisters, for our friends. Obviously, we talk about the pros and cons of social media, right? And I feel like we are actively watching one of the pros. And it's to be able to see how many people are coming forward and speaking and supporting, which has been amazing. But in your opinion, why do you think this particular case has garnered so much national attention? This case being an alleged gang rape is somewhat more salacious. People feel certain things like disgust at the level of their visceral reaction to the case. It seems kind of out there. And so that can lead to more moral outrage, even though we should be equally outraged for every victim who comes forward. I agree. I think the headlines are so for people, seven plus men and speculating of 50 plus people in a group chat. There's a story that people unfortunately on social media are clinging to that's interesting and clickbaity. But this was a woman's reality. And also, even if it was just one man, that's enough to have a story be talked about. And so I agree. I think it's important to highlight the injustice is just as strong, whether it was seven, whether it was one, however many, assault and rape is assault and rape. That's exactly right. And so part of what is going on here is people feel particularly disgusted towards the Fratt brothers, which I think makes sense, but that drives a more heightened morally outrage reaction. And I think that is the right reaction. I share it completely if what Jane Doe alleges in her lawsuit is true. And for the record, I believe her. And so I do say, let's extend that out in the way that I think the hashtag I am Jane Doe is doing precisely that. I want to get a little bit more into that today of the essentially the effects of sexual assault, especially on these campuses, and what the outcome is for the victim, rather the perpetrator. So prior to this case, how aware were you of sexual violence at Cornell? I was very aware of it. And this is, in fact, why I began work. readership because this was a case that really showed to me the layers of it. So this student who I have given the moniker Jill to keep her anonymity and to protect her, she came to me and she said she had been subject to image-based sexual violence. And this image-based sexual violence had been something where it was just incessant. She couldn't shut it down. She was incredibly bothered by it. Understandably, there were vile images of her on social media that were coming from frat brothers that were targeting her in her place of work on campus. So she went to the police, the campus police, CUPD, and she complained about this. They sent a male officer, and this is all her written report of what happened to me because she shared this with me in a written form as well as a conversation. And she said, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. So I have all of the written records. The male officer said she should be flattered by the attention. He said that there was nothing he could do if it wasn't stalking or some kind of physical sexual violence. And he just left the case and did nothing except he went to the head of Greek life at Cornell and told him about the allegations. That person then essentially tipped off the attorney that Jill had complained and made these allegations, betraying her confidence and disclosing her identity because she was the only woman who worked at that particular workplace and lived in the building. So she had this situation where she tried to get help and her safety was compromised. It's like we, as women, were told, well, why didn't you come forward? And then you have this woman who's coming forward and the response is, you should be flattered by the attention of these naked images, this essentially revenge porn being used against you to traumatize you. And that is a form of stalking. I know. I also just want to validate any woman who's watching who has decided to not come forward with their stories because this is a perfect example. And I appreciate you bringing this one up before we get more into Jane Doe, because this just highlights, actually, these men put this woman in even more trouble and more danger by her coming forward and talking about what happened to her. She ended up actually being more exposed to these fraternity brothers because they have the police and they have the authorities at the campus who are essentially saying, we're on your side. And this woman is now alienated and alone. Yeah. Why would she have spoken up? Now, in hindsight, I get why if she had to go back and she wouldn't come forward because look what happened to her. Yeah. And she said, she wrote all of this down in an email to me, which again, I shared with her complete blessing and permission. She said, this will discourage me from ever coming forward again. Doesn't that just say it all? Women are often held to be scared or anxious or worried about not being believed. And of course, that can be a factor and that is valid. But it's also sometimes just a rational calculation of what am I going to get out of this? It might actually compromise my safety and not help me at all. And we have to change that. That is something that desperately needs institutional reform. Let's talk about when it comes to the current case that we are all talking about, Jane Doe specifically. In what ways from what you've been able to observe, do you think the system has failed this woman? So I think it's failed her in a number of ways. I mean, one way that it's failed her, and this has not been really widely talked about, is she went to Cornell Health because she had a UTI. And she talked about the fact that her injuries were traumatic. And according to her allegations, the physician or medical provider, whoever it was, didn't follow up and, for example, offered to take a rape kit. So that is really one other institutional betrayal that we need to be thinking about. But let's also talk about the fact that the system has failed her in a number of ways. Let's also look at the ones that we're all talking about. So after what she alleged, she went to Cornell University Police. They have all of the powers of any other law enforcement officer, but they're employed by the university. So many people have been worried about this conflict of interest. And I share that worry. She went to CUPD. They had an officer take hours of her statement. There's no evidence that it was a trauma-informed officer who understood how to really sit down with someone and talk to them. And so she went to CUPD. And she said, someone who has been subject to sexual violence. So that is a problem. But maybe an even bigger problem is they condensed hours of her testimony, including the statement, I am 100% confident I was raped. They deleted that from her statement and condensed it into a mere six pages, which they then gave to the Tompkins County DA, who then did nothing on that basis. So they alighted her saying I was raped from her testimony. And she said, I am 100% confident I was raped from her testimony. Isn't that shocking? It's so shocking. But it's also like you said, Kate, like the administration is funding. It's employing these. They are university employees as CUPD officers. Correct. So it's like if your employer, you know, wants to protect and cover everything up always. It makes sense why these people are covering these things up. We don't want to deal with another rape case. We can't have another one on the fraternity. We got to kind of rug. And so it's become a cultural issue. And so as shocking as it is for all of us to hear is it's not that shocking. It's not surprising. I always hold on to this sense, Alex, of I am in a perpetual state of being morally shocked, but not empirically surprised. And I want to be clear. So I do think Cornell took some actions that were very positive in this case. So they immediately suspended the event. They're not recognized on campus as having the status of a fraternity. So that was a serious action they took. And they issued an interim suspension for those seven students. Okay. And then they expel two students. So that's good. But five of the seven are left free to graduate. And it is very hard for me to understand. Admittedly, not privy to all of the ins and outs of the internal investigation because none of us are. But it is very hard for me to understand why Jane Doe ends up dropping out and not getting her tuition refunded while five of the seven men who she alleged attacked her are left free to graduate with a Cornell degree. I think we are owed much more accountability and transparency about that process. I couldn't agree more. I think that's what's so infuriating. Again, the woman is always the one because of the lack of accountability taken and the lack of action that is being taken. She cannot feel safe. I really think that we need to become a zero-tolerance campus and that all campuses need to apply this policy where if we find someone responsible for a serious kind of sexual misconduct, that leads to an expulsion. I completely agree. I want to talk more about culture and men and what is underneath all of this because there is so much to discuss. There is so much to discuss. And you coined the term empathy, which if no one knows what empathy means, Kate's about to explain it to us and you will never not think of this word again because I feel like it is literally what our world revolves around. So can you just explain what empathy is? Yeah. So empathy is my word for the scenarios where we have sympathy and loyalty for a male perpetrator of misogyny over a female victim. So basically, we feel like we have sympathy and loyalty for a male perpetrator of misogyny over a female perpetrator of misogyny. And we feel bad for him who did the thing that is awful over someone who is the victim of that harmful behavior. And so we see this. I actually coined the term in relation to Brock Turner. He was found guilty, convicted of sexually assaulting Chanel Miller behind a dumpster at Stanford's campus after a fraternity party. And yet, so many people worried about him missing out on his bright future. Rather than the fact that what about her bright future? What about the ways she was shattered? What about the ways that this, as we now know, brilliant writer and creator and artist had her life derailed for years by what he did to her? And so our sympathy flows up the social hierarchy. Instead of going to the people who deserve it, the people who should be centered and honored in this process, the victims of sexual assault, we worry so much about them. And so we feel bad about them. And so we feel bad about him. Because even when you say that, I feel like so many of the people who watch and listen to my show are women. So we're all like, oh, my God, yes. Like, I didn't know there was a word for it. But yes. Like, why are we worried about the men? Can you explain from your understanding? Like, why do we do this? Why do why does society provide such empathy for men who are engaging and accused of sexual violence? So this has happened. the wheels of patriarchy turn. It is the system whereby if you do something as a man, and there is really strong evidence, or even in the case of a Brock Turner, full knowledge that he did what he did because he was apprehended in the act of sexually assaulting Chanel Miller by two Swedish graduate students who caught him in the act and performed a citizen's arrest. So we knew what he'd done. And yet the sense is, we cannot possibly hold him accountable because he is too important. He is the priority. He is the center of this story. And she, as a female victim, especially if she is similarly or even less privileged, we do not care about women. We are indifferent to women and girls. So I've spent so much of my academic career trying to understand misogyny as not hatred in boys' hearts, but rather as a social system. Punishes and enforces patriarchal norms and expectations by visiting women with so much shit, so much hostility, so much hatred when we don't stay in our lane. But the flip side of misogyny is just as women get punished, men get rewarded. So whenever you have these social systems where you have punishment and blame and holding women responsible for their behavior, even when they're really doing nothing wrong, you're going to have a lot of people who are going to be going to have this flip side, which is rewarding and lionizing and even celebrating him for engaging in this punitive and misogynistic behavior. So it all fits together. It does. And can you fit it together for us, for people who are so engaged and following this Jane Doe case? In what ways are we seeing empathy and misogyny kind of show up in response to Jane Doe right now? Well, so what we see in this particular case, if her allegations are true, and again, I am just going to state candidly for the record, I believe Jane Doe. So if what she alleges is true, those seven men acted in a way that was just irredeemably entitled. They acted like they were utterly entitled to take what they wanted from her, not because I think they were all that interested in her as a human being, but because they wanted to show off to her. And so I think that's what we're seeing here. And I think that's and get points in an intramasculine hierarchy. And basically Peacock performed their masculinity in ways that being misogynistic in that game is not a feature, it's a bug. Violating a woman is not like, whoops, I didn't realize what I was doing. It's what they're aiming to do because that gives you points in this intramasculine competition. And so once that entitlement is in place, unfortunately, a lot of people in our patriarchal society actually share this sense that men are entitled to do what they like to women's bodies. And so you see the empathy in the sense that, well, maybe he was entitled to do this if she was drunk or on ketamine voluntarily, which I think, you know, there are very difficult questions to be asked about ways in which we have billed this as voluntary drug and alcohol use where a lawsuit puts that in question, let's just say. But whatever it was, there's this sense that he is entitled to do what he likes to a woman's body and we are basically on his side. And this is a very unfortunate reality, but empathy is not just something men feel for each other. It's something that I think as women, we sometimes need to get past in ourselves, this sense that holding him accountable would almost be wrong because we owe loyalty and sympathy to a male over the woman he has abused or assaulted or been otherwise misogynistic towards. Do you mind defining inter-masculine competition? Because that was really interesting how you started to explain that dynamic. Yeah. So I think we need to be looking hard at all male groups in this situation and the way that in an all male group, men are basically competing with each other, but also wanting each other's approval and admiration and even love. So there's this amazing quote from Marilyn Frye, this classic feminist quote that you will see all over the place saying straight men in groups, they are having sex with women, but they actually want the love and admiration and everything else from male peers. They're actually more oriented in a funny way towards performing their masculinity for their male peers. And women are then often just a means to an end. They're trophies in this. They're someone to exploit and behave disgustingly towards as a form of, again, kind of masculine peacocking and showing off what a big man you are because you have done this disgusting thing to a woman. And it really is such a terrible system because in these all male groups, my read on it is that there are kind of two rules of the bro code. One is that you have to be a man, and the other is that you have to be a woman. One is that if someone proposes something immoral or illegal, you don't call it out. You don't say no, you don't shut it down. You ratchet it up, you at least participate. And the other aspect of the bro code I think is empathy. You protect your brothers after the fact instead of a vulnerable person like Jane Doe allegedly was in this situation. You don't help her, you help your brothers cover their asses. I agree with that. I think it's a really good thing. I agree with you on that empathy note, too, because I think so many people we've just been seeing like, but should one night really ruin his future? Are we really going to do that? Are we sure? And again, it's not just, I agree, the men. There are women who are thinking that I've seen a lot of women on social media saying, I did think about that before I came forward because I'm like, oh my God, could this ruin his life? The answer is usually no, it actually probably won't ruin his life, unfortunately. He'll be fine. It makes so much sense the way that we actually reward men who are exceptionally good at exercising their power in a way that is demonic, but we still somehow as a society view it of like, a lot of men look at it like, well, it is kind of commendable. There's something weird and twisted that we have, and it is the patriarchy misogyny that a lot of us don't want to admit it. And powerful. Yeah. That act of domination is seen as a kind of sign of masculine prowess, and it is awful. It's like a complete inversion of what morality really is, which is we should be kind to each other. If you see someone in trouble, you help them, you don't hurt them. But in these all male groups, this dynamic really reverses where you see that there's almost a sense of moral act. So it's not just that morality goes out the window. It feels to me as a moral philosopher, more like there's a sense of, no, my moral obligation now, the right thing to do now would actually be to go in and participate and be part of this group effort to humiliate a woman and assert what men are entitled to and be part of this quote unquote fun. I want to come back to something that has been a pretty prominent conversation online that women have brought up and it's really ruffled a lot of men's feathers is the man versus bear conversation that kind of took off this past year on TikTok. And basically, it's like, to anyone that's not familiar, women were asked, essentially, would you rather be stranded in the woods with a man or a bear? And most women say a bear, no doubt about it. And a lot of people are like, wait, wait, why? And I'm like, because if the bear comes and mauls me, and I somehow survive, and I go to the police station, and I say this bear mauled me, they're going to go into the woods, and they're going to shoot the bear. But we know the alternative. This is the whole conversation we're talking about, right? You go in, and you go into Cornell PD, and you tell them what these men did to you. And they tell you, well, you should be flattered that he came for you. And what were you wearing? What why? Then you have the uprising of men being enraged by this conversation. What do you think about this conversation? And why do you think men are so deeply insulted by this comparison? I love this question, because I think that it is so natural and normal for a man to hear this comparison, and to feel, at the very least, really uncomfortable, and to feel confronted. Women in my world, women I follow online are saying that men are really, really dangerous. Like, that's what this comparison is saying. But I would really encourage men to sit with their sense of discomfort and channel that, and see if they can sit with that and work up a feeling of outrage on behalf of women. Because understanding that we're making this comparison, because the world is such a than it needs to be, I think channeling that discomfort into a sense of, oh, that must be what it's like to be a woman. And I need to take action on that basis, not to be prodded into it by the women in my life and not to have the conversation of my mother, my daughter, my sisters. That's a good start. But you can just be upset that a woman, a girl, any woman is subject to sexual violence of a kind that is completely unacceptable. So yeah, take your sense that this is an uncomfortable conversation and see if you can do something more impressive with it than remaining in that place of defensiveness. I am not anti-men in any way. This comes from a place of hope. Really, we are having these conversations partly because this is not inevitable male behavior in any way. Men can behave so much better than this. And we see this, I'm sure, in our own lives, in the many people we meet. And I think that's a really important thing. And I think that's a who have as men earned our trust. Some of my best friends and yes, my husband and my colleagues and my wonderful male students and all of the wonderful young boys in my daughter's life. I think that we can come at this from a place of saying, we're holding you accountable as a group because of course men are capable of good, decent, humane behavior. We have all the optimism that this is possible because it's acceptable. So why are there some men perpetrating acts that just are utterly inexcusable in the year of our law, 2026? Something that I've seen a lot on line also is we are referring to the Cornell seven alleged rapists as a group of men. want to know what she looks like. Why? It's so interesting because I do think that part of the power of the I am Jane Doe movement, and it really does feel like a movement at this point, is that we don't know her identity and many people can project onto her their own experiences of sexual assault, sexual violence, sexual harassment, and more. And that is a wonderful thing. She is kind of, because she is so courageous and has come forward in this lawsuit, she's become a kind of Rorschach as a victim for anyone's experiences. And yet, because of that anonymity, not knowing her identity, there are people who are really interestingly desperate to see what she looks like as if that would explain what happened. And I have written extensively on the way that if someone is perceived as not conventionally attractive, they're actually more subject to sexual violence, sexual violence, sexual harassment, and more. And I think that's is actually slightly elevated for people who are in larger bodies, for one example of this, because people who want to perpetrate sexual violence perceive that they will not be believed. They have the, I think, very accurate belief that people will dismiss their testimony about what happened to them by saying, well, she's not the most attractive girl. She was probably flattered. And it's so appalling, but they're not the most attractive girls. And they're not this sense that essentially a woman has to be a very, very particular way and a perfect victim in order to be credible is something we need to lose that collective myth and that belief. We need to lose that yesterday. It's so disturbing because I think you're so right. And I think people are looking, they want to know her race so bad. Yes. They want to know, what her social media looks like. They want to know, they want to know everything. And so that they can destroy this woman essentially. And I, I, I'm so in a, in a way happy that we're being able to see this, this conversation happening without essentially objectifying a woman and just letting the facts and the story speak for itself. And I agree with you. It has, it has allowed that level of anonymity to have every woman of every race of every body type of ever, like everyone is able to talk about their own Jane Doe story, but the perfect victim is something that is coming up a little bit. And I was actually reading comments in this morning and people were like, what is everyone talking about? What do you mean the perfect victim? And can you explain that for people who may not be familiar? Cause although we're talking about it, like really put it into, pretty simple terms for maybe people watching who don't understand. I think the perfect victim is a woman who is considered perfect according to patriarchy. And then the idea is she is sullied by rape. And in any other case, there is a prevalent belief. Of course it is, hopefully we're making progress on this, but there is often a belief that it is essentially the victim's fault. Or in some cases we just don't care very much. Or again, we're skeptical that she could really have been sexually assaulted because we continue to make this mistake of thinking that rape is about sex rather than power. And that therefore only someone who is the most conventionally attractive woman could possibly be attacked in this way, which is such a fallacy. I mean, I've written about the intersection of misogyny and fat phobia for years. And I was like, you have managed a new low in terms of the discourse. You have managed to not only victim blaming, but bring fat phobia into this as an element of this case. Like, congratulations. This is, these are horrific comments that show that a woman who is not considered perfect as an archetype and morally perfect is not going to be taken seriously in many contexts. I also am so glad that you're bringing up, which we're going to get to, that rape has really nothing to do with sexuality. This is not like, oh my God, this man can't control himself because he's just so horny and he has to have sex with this woman right now. Like, that is not what is happening. But before we get there, I think it's so important the way that you are kind of talking about the victim and the multitude of angles that we come from when we look at, are they worthy of being believed essentially? And this specific case with Jane Doe, people are starting to point out that initially it is believed that she was sexually adventurous, but she consented to a threesome that night. That has now become such a central debate over what happened afterwards. And now, well, was it really rape if she was okay with the threesome? Talk to me about this. Yeah, it is so wild to me that we're still having to say this, but let's just be really clear. You can be sexually adventurous as a woman and still be raped. You can consent, and I'm not saying this is what happened, because it is at the very least unclear. You can consent to have sex with two men, but not five men or seven men. So we need to be really clear that women are allowed to, we are entitled to have sexual freedom and still be taken seriously when we come forward and say, this was not consensual. And so many victims of sexual assault, part of the activity was consensual. Yes, to the date, or she said yes to a kiss, or she even said yes to some form of sexual activity, but then it turned violent or non-consensual in a way that I think that is also part of why many people are relating to Jane Doe's story, which is that then you oftentimes end up blaming yourself and even gaslighting yourself and saying, did I really have this encounter that was just completely horrific and not consensual? The answer is yes, but because there is an aspect of the night that I did agree to, that becomes harder to say. About 85 to 90% of sexual assaults reported by college women are perpetrated by someone they know. The victim, this is usually a friend of the victim. This is usually someone that they are friends with to some degree, or they're in the I think also why it's so hard for women, aside from the actual aftermath and the in the moment and after of the trauma that they're enduring there is something that is again so not perfect victim of okay hold on this man didn't just jump out of the bushes and push me to the ground and i and i was raped and and i'm scared and this is what it looks like in the movies right it's hard though for i think a woman to understand if i knew him and he was i thought my supposed friend how am i going to explain this to people after you go through something so horrific and this is something that is also happening in this case another thing people scrutinize a victim for is this aftermath we're talking about right if a woman continues to text or to see the person that she says assaulted her people immediately think that that is evidence that the assault could not have happened or that she is lost why might someone stay in contact with the person who harmed them yeah and these two points are connected so we have this archetype of a monster in the bushes who is this dastardly character who you would just recognize him on site as a bad person who jumps out as a stranger and rapes a victim but we know that that is a caricature which just isn't accurate at all and in fact the idea of a monster kind of exonerates other men via this caricature because they are not this monster archetype and as a result i think as a direct result of that a lot of women have trouble reconciling their image of what sexual assault is with what happened to them they're like well he's not a monster therefore he couldn't have done this instead of thinking as people eventually come to he did this and so sexual assault can be perpetrated by people who don't seem like monsters and are not monsters they are in a sense very ordinary men so in the case of jane doe and many many other victims of sexual violence we really have to understand the flight fight freeze or fawn response where fawning is a way of saying after the fact oh it was okay i enjoyed it i think you're nice even though that is not actually accurate at all to what the victim ultimately thinks and to what happened to her it is rather that she feels like the only way she can be safe is to placate him and also frankly sometimes our brains don't want to fully recognize the horror of what we have been through so it can take a long time for us to say what has happened to us and to name it even if we don't know what happened to us and to name it even if we don't know what happened to us and to name it even if we don't know what happened to us and to name it even if we don't even though what happened was not consensual um in cases where like jane doe there were consensual aspects of it again according to her allegations there is just a very real kind of self-defensive self-protective mechanism that kicks in and people don't want to say immediately what they're having trouble processing and so fawning is both about not um really being able to reconcile your image of a sexual assailant with well he's your friend but also protecting yourself against this horrible thing you now have to wrap your mind around and i think what has been again something that has hopefully through more people sharing in this i am jane doe movement women are seeing this and and people are trying to use you know she texted him the next day or whatever as like so it's it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't matter if it's what has been so sad but also illuminating is the amount of women in the comment section that are like oh oh she she texted him the next day i i stayed with my rapist for two more years and continued to date him i called him the next day and asked if you wanted to go to pizza with you i i i went to his house the next day i had consensual sex with him the next day it is so confusing i think because we have not been able to talk to each other for a long time able to find the right way to talk about this because it's so secretive right that people start to again he's a monster no no this is your friend's brother this is your neighbor this is the kid that sits next to you in class and they look like ordinary guys and so much of the conversation people are starting to have that is also i hope going to change the way that we believe and look at victims is every woman knows a woman who has been raped yeah every woman if you walk down time square and you grab woman can you do you know yep you got it you go ask a man do you know any a rapist and they're all like no no no no so then who's doing it though and so i think it's important that we use these moments to have these conversations to continue to educate not only everyone but ourselves and remind ourselves you guys this is a strategic lens that has been portrayed to us that we are supposed to believe so that it also we gaslight ourselves essentially to not think well maybe maybe i i saw it wrong maybe i saw it wrong right i mean he's a nice guy he did something that maybe he was confused about question mark i should really make this okay between us because that's my role that's my job as a woman is to smooth social relations and make sure no one feels uncomfortable and so i'm going to reach out and text him and that's part of it too which really breaks my heart that these signs that a woman is feeling really deeply uncomfortable are misinterpreted to say nothing happened when the fact that she was trying to in a way placate him or reconcile in her own brain what was happening with her what her body is experiencing i mean let's remember jane doe went to cornell health and said i you know was subject to traumatic injuries and as well as that she also went to the emergency room eventually the day before she filed a police report where she asked for a rape kit this is not someone who was shrugging her shoulders and then changed her mind she was if you read the new york times story about how she went from shame to anger she was processing and she was going through many attempts to get help and my sense is when you're a victim of something there's the awful fact of what happened but what is almost worse for many victims i have spoken to in my work is the sense of indifference surrounding it the silence surrounding it and the shrugging about it and so the way women are so deeply unhelped and i would just say unheld in society when something awful happens to you and instead of everyone being like oh my god what can we do you need support and we need to listen to you we need to help you we need to have accountability for the perpetrators when all of that is absent and instead you get a kind of empathetic task force trying to exonerate him and shrugging their shoulders about what you're a then you end up doubly traumatized because it wasn't just the event it was the way you are unheld by everyone in the aftermath i think that's such a great point kate and also having been in college and and you know interacted with frat bros it's like i can't also imagine when you're when we talk about the trauma of a woman i think it makes sense to so many women when we hear like of course you don't have to be a woman you don't have to be a man you don't have to be a woman you don't wake up the next morning and you say this is what happened and this is what i need to do there is something in your body that is trying to not only survive what you just physically went through mentally also what you're going through but emotionally being on a campus where the humiliation and you know what could come with it like there's so much that we will never be able to understand what this woman slowly started to unpack the day after the three days later the week after of starting to put together truly as her brain and her body became a little bit more lucid to her reality it makes me emotional thinking about her and so to act like a victim is not going to have that on the nth degree of the scale we're we're just we're being uh negligent to what we know as human beings our bodies go through which is really upsetting that we give no grace to these women i want to talk to you about rape and frat culture you recently questioned the phrase teach men not to rape and it's something that people say and i can't believe that it's even a statement that we have to teach men not to rape but what do you think this framing gets wrong and look i believe in education passionately i am an educator that's my whole thing but education can be a necessary step without it being even remotely sufficient. So I think for young boys who are in, say, early adolescence, then developmentally appropriate, age-appropriate lessons about what consent looks like can be valuable. But once we're doing that, repeating that process and doubling down on that really assumes the problem is that these men simply do not know what they're doing and that they want consent and they're just somehow bungling the exercise. I find that highly questionable. I think in many cases, unfortunately, the violation is the point. We have a problem of not knowing what they're doing, but knowing exactly what they're doing and wanting to do it anyway, because that is a way, again, of getting masculine prowess, of getting points in a masculine competition, and of kind of celebrating your misogyny. To other people who are watching the exercise, to other men who are watching the exercise. So if this is not a problem of false beliefs, but really bad desires to violate women, then we need a completely different approach than just telling men what consent is and teaching them not to rape in a way that is based on this, I think, false assumption that men are committed as a group to ensure. So basically what you're saying is like, when men are like, what even is consent these days? Like, no, don't rape a woman. Don't inappropriately touch a woman. Do not touch a woman if she does not want to be touched. And so it really has nothing to do with these men are not confused. It all has to do with the violation that they are enjoying and the power that they are asserting over this woman's body. And then actually, the lack of education also can be used as, well, I didn't. Well, what? Oh, okay. So we're not allowed to. And it's like, they're hiding behind the lack of education. No one is fucking confused what rape is. They're not confused because it's not confusing. If there is any question of whether or not someone wants to do this, you don't do it. It's very simple. No one has ever died from, I will not have sex with this person who. I think has had a little bit too much to drink. No one has ever even suffered badly from saying, you know what? Someone else seems a little compromised or I'm not totally sure that the enthusiasm was there. We're just not going to do this right now. So the idea that this is this highly confusing thing and that education is going to make this huge difference to rates of rape is also just. I'm sorry, but we've been beating this drum for a long time and we have not seen rates of assault go down meaningfully. In fact, we're seeing some evidence of an uptick. And so let's be real here about what the problem is. And I think Celeste Davis, the writer, put it beautifully in her essay on this. She says, look, violating a woman is unfortunately, it can be a feature, not a bug for certain men under patriarchy. And that's a horrible reality. And that's a very confronting statement. And look, it's not true of every. sexual assault. And there are, you know, some circumstances where more education would be helpful. But in a lot of cases, the aim is to assert your entitlement to a woman's body and violate her very deliberately such that there is not an honest attempt to get consent that was, again, somehow bungled here. How does fraternity culture reinforce these beliefs or motivations? I mean, I think all male groups generally are very problematic. I mean, look at the Epstein files and the way so many men didn't call each other out for doing disgusting things to girls. And I emphasize to children. It is so painful to think about. And of course, fraternities aren't completely unique. And I think that's a very, very important thing to think about. But they are one kind of all male group, where it's this dynamic on steroids. You've talked about how, you know, fraternities are basically hotbeds of rape and misogyny. Let's talk about what is in the DNA of fraternities. Let's talk about rush week. And let's talk about the hazing. And the it's not even a groupthink mentality. It is like this silent code of conduct that it's like, we are all going to, first of all, do something essentially illegal. And then we're going to do something essentially illegal. And then we're going to do something essentially illegal to kick off our time together. And we are going to suffer and be in pain and go through all of this together. And can you talk about almost like, what, what starts as the bonding, and then this ritual then continues, as we saw in the Snapchat messages, with what was going on with Jane Doe? Yeah, completely. I mean, we don't just need to be concerned about fraternities in terms of sexual violence, although that's a huge factor. There's also hazing and bullying of a kind that's so severe, it's got a name, a special name, which is biohazing. So basically, ways in which people are forced to consume just substances that they shouldn't be are exposed to essentially biohazards. I mean, who wants their child going into an environment like this, even independently of the fact that there is good evidence that they're more likely to be initiated into rape culture if they're a versus not. And so I just don't think these institutions should be part of a modern university, which is a place of learning, a place of education, a place where we should be having fun, and the students should feel a sense of enormous freedom in ways that, honestly, I don't think the fraternity brothers feel very free either. There is this very established code within them to go along with terrible things, and then the kind of omerta, the silence, around anything bad that was done. I had posted a couple weeks ago, Kate, at the very beginning of this, and I just was like, how are fraternities still up and running? Like, we need to shut these fraternities down. And seeing, first of all, how many women in sororities were like, oh, we got shut down because there was a bottle of wine in a room where there was a freshman. That's how our sorority got shut down. But yeah, let's look now at what the fraternities are doing. Again, it's just a matter of how we're going to do this. The disparity in the accountability is shocking with men versus women. But when we do talk about this, and I posted about this, so many people were messaging me, oh, well, Alex, it's not every fraternity. It's not all men. It's not all this. People often, obviously, are going to respond to the conversation by making it clear it's not 100%. What is your response when people say, well, it's not every frat, Kate, so why would we shut them all down? Well, look, we always have to risk versus reward calculation. And let me give you an analogy. Maybe you have had a good time drinking, and it's really convenient to drive home, and you were fine. You drove home drunk, worked out fine. It was a convenient way to get home, and you had an excellent time drinking at that party. That does not mean drunk driving is okay. It means you got lucky. So to the person who says, look, my fraternity was fine. I'm not drunk. I'm not drunk. I'm not drunk. I'm not drunk. I'm not drunk. I'm not drunk. I'm not drunk. I'm not drunk. I'm not drunk. I'm not drunk. Or it wasn't that nice, but nothing like this ever happened. I'm sorry. I'm so pleased for you. That's wonderful. But the risk reward calculation is just completely off. These are dangerous institutions to the point where a really telling detail from Jane Doe's lawsuit is that they are virtually uninsurable. That's how dangerous fraternity houses are, that they're just a hair below hazardous waste disposal and asbestos removal in terms of the risk of death. Insurance risk. So if insurance companies are saying, no, this is how dangerous a frat is, even if you personally had a good experience in your frat, I'm sorry, we need to be really changing our policies even so, just as we became incredibly hard on drunk driving, and that had demonstrable results in terms of reducing rates of deaths and horrific injuries. I think we need to take a similar approach here of we need to radically change, how we're thinking about these institutions and reform our response to them and be intolerant of institutions where, yeah, it's just so much harm and whatever good they do is just outweighed by that harm. I agree. Especially because we have the statistics. We have the statistics. It's all right there. At the same time, you have advised young women to avoid fraternity houses. Yeah. How do you give young women, you know, practical advice about protecting themselves without putting their responsibility back on them? Totally. And this has to be a really nuanced conversation because I want to be completely clear. If you go to the worst frat on the worst night and get absolutely shit-faced, anything that happens to you is 100% the fault of the people who do that bad thing. Rape is always 100% the fault of the rapist. Zero percent. On the victim. But that's a question. That's a conversation about morality. and who is to blame for rape. Again, 100% the rapist. So does that make sense that I want young women to feel very clear that I would never even remotely hold them responsible in any way for any ill that befalls them? And at the same time, if they're practicing forward-looking self-protection, then I do want to acknowledge that there may be ways to minimize risk and I want them to have that information. And I think we need to have a more nuanced conversation about this when people are interested in self-protection, and not everyone is. But we also have to recognize that it's not just frats. If we want to talk to women about, oh, where are places that you could get raped? Well, for a lot of us, then you're going to say you can't go home. You can't go to the gym. You can't go to your job. You can't go to the doctor's office. You can't go to the hospital. You can't go to the park. We can't go anywhere. So you can't be inside. You can't be outside. You can't be. Yeah. And it's disheartening even, Kate, as women, this is, though, our reality. And so all of us also, we can get angry, as we should, and we should be upset. But we also have to live in our reality of, like, unfortunately, this is what it is. And so until we are going to continue to be loud and active and force and change, yes, be realistic about our circumstances. I mean, it's a kind of you shouldn't have to, but you do. There are so many situations where you shouldn't have to think for a single second about any aspect of your sexual and physical safety in this way. And unfortunately, we often do in ways that I do want to be able to have these kinds of conversations with my daughter where, and she's just six, nearly seven, but I want to be able to say to her, look, if you come to me and you say you have placed yourself in a situation of risk, I want to be very clear. I will say, I do not care what you did. I do not care what you drank, what drugs you took, what you were wearing. This is 100% on the people who wronged you. I am always, always, always on your side. And morally speaking, you did nothing wrong. But if she's coming to me and saying, look, I'm worried about doing this or that, I'll say, okay, this would be a great idea and this could be risky. So that is what I would advise looking forward. And again, if you decide to do things differently, I'm on your team and I will support you every step of the way. So that's like a very context sensitive and nuanced conversation. And that's the conversation I want to make room for as feminists, which isn't as blunt as just insisting you can go anywhere and do anything because that's what it ought to be. But that is in reality. So when we look at this Jane Doe case, when it comes to all these men in this group chat, something that has been extremely interesting to watch unfold within this case is the element of technology. And if these Snapchat messages didn't come out, we probably would be even a little bit more lenient to these men. And that's what I would say. And I don't think this is one of the few that, yes, is going and someone is actually taking legal action. And it happens that, thank God, social media has gotten so loud because I believe that this is going to help push it even more up the hill. But it is so hard to even get it up the hill. We're watching it right now. People are already starting to discredit. People are already starting to defend the, quote, boys in this. And we've known this for a long time, Alex. And this is not just sexual violence. It's also, you know, it's a lot of violence. It's a lot of violence. It's a lot of intimate partner and other forms of domestic and dating violence. And we have examples close to home of horrific abuse that happen in our neighborhoods. These are our friends. These are our colleagues. Sometimes they're our own partners. And yet there's this sense that evil is somehow elsewhere and other. And that is not accurate. It is a matter of hierarchy and a society. But I really think we can do better. I'm here and have been on this just decades long career path because I really think that we can do better than this for girls and women. I agree. Cornell has said it wants to learn from what happened here. You have said you want to see, you know, there needs to be no no tolerance policy. Yes. This case seems to have, in an amazing way, outraged and woken up women by far beyond Cornell. They are using I am Jane Doe not only to stand with her, but to talk about their own experiences. What do you think changes when women are able to recognize their individual experiences in a larger pattern? Basically, what's happening right now? I think there's something so powerful in it because sexual violence, among other things, is really a big issue. And I think it's a big issue. And I think it's really shaming for many people, including Jane Doe. It does this thing where it makes you feel like you're the bad person, even though you did nothing wrong. And so what shame does, like think about it physically. It bows our head. It disconnects us. You lower your eyes. Maybe you want to disappear. But when that shame changes sides and you have women looking at each other and other victims of sexual assault, because, of course, there are other victims of sexual assault. There are always victims from people of every gender. But it is disproportionately women raising their heads and looking at each other and saying, I am Jane Doe. And that does something amazing to galvanize a sense that we have nothing to be ashamed about. And actually, that shame does need to change sides. And the people who should be ashamed are the people who are doing the sexual assault. They rapists should be ashamed of themselves. It's so true. It sounds so simple, though, Kate. It's like, how is Jane Doe the one who is getting the shame? You can already feel it. And it's like, what about these men? Like, oh, what about his future? What about her future? And it's like, it's so simple. But we still are like, well, what did she do? What did she wear? It's all on this woman. So I do agree with you that when we're able to help other women lift their heads up, hold their hands, all of us look at each other and be like, you're not alone in this. There is something that feels so powerful. And the idea that we demand safety for girls and women, that is something I deeply believe in. And look, shame gets a very bad rap. But I think shame has a powerful role here. Shame is a powerful motivator for people to not do shameful, bad things like committing sexual assault. I was going to say also, Kate, when you think of the word shame, it's very gendered, in my opinion. You just think of women. That is absolutely true. Absolutely right. And that is so interesting, too, because so much actually shameful behavior is disproportionately perpetrated by boys and men. So why is that? I think something as someone who is about to become a parent, I also think that something that has been allowing me to feel more hopeful about future generations is when we are looking at these men and these women we we we actually can do something. Yes. And and as this generation that I'm a part of is raising the next generation, we have an opportunity to course correct, essentially, and look at the trauma that so many of us have endured and say, if you are raising a young girl or young boy, you have an opportunity to help them understand what is appropriate, what is appropriate, what is appropriate, what is appropriate, what is appropriate, what is appropriate. Yes, we can educate them from a young age, how to have the moral compass that is going to allow them that when they are put in that group chat with that amount of men, they can actually feel so confident in themselves to be the person that is the buzzkill. That is the one that says, what the fuck is going on? That is the one that goes to the authorities. That is the one that stops it. And I think that is something as someone who's about to become a mother. It gives me hope because it's something tangible. It gives me hope because it's something tangible that I know that I can at least control within my household and myself. You can't control everyone. But I do think for any woman or man watching, it's like, that is one thing that we can do. If you are looking, if you are interested in having children or raising the next generation, that is something tangible, right? And there is something really possible here to do that is a lot bigger and deeper and more radical than consent education, which is teach boys to care. Teach boys to be caregivers for each other. other but also every human so there is often the sense that what boy moms need to do is to teach boys to shut things down if for example they are subjected to a hug that they don't want and that's great that's part of it there's also a sense that boys need to express their emotions openly and again that's great it's part of it but boys need to be taught they are not entitled to other people's bodies and to touch without permission and it is a very simple lesson i mean teach boys to be babysitters for that matter teach boys that they can be teachers and that they should be contributing to caring for the next generation i do think there is a sense of yeah like a limited repertoire that we're teaching boys about in terms of truncating their sense of entitlement what about instilling in boys a sense that they are morally responsible for their own lives and that they are able to caring for everyone around them such that that is the mentality of a boy who might be able to intervene in the group chat and say that's not okay i'm going to be the killjoy i am going to intervene and this is not cool and just shut that shit down as we look forward and kind of conclude this conversation um i'm curious if you think that we could be witnessing the beginning of another me too movement i do think that it feels like this really incredible momentum that you know thanks to those brilliant student journalists cerise and sophia have really started something that feels like another powerful way in which women are coming together and recognizing their ability to protest unjust treatment so i do think we're seeing that what needs to happen now for this to become sustained change rather than just another moment of outrage and then and then and then well i think we need to get really serious about looking at police departments on university campuses and their role in this and having trauma-informed offices doing this kind of interviewing we need to get really serious about title nine investigative offices and completely reforming that process and i think that's a really important point and i think that's a really important point in this process and we need to get serious about a zero tolerance policy at universities where if a student is found responsible or at fault for sexual misconduct in my opinion they should be expelled that's what zero tolerance means but as well as that this is an opportunity to continue to push at the bama that is patriarchy it's such a big thing there are so many pieces of it to dismantle but we can begin to push at the bama that is patriarchy it's such a big thing there are so many pieces of it to dismantle but we can begin to to work on that process and this is a moment to say look a victim is never to blame for what happens to her a rapist is 100 the responsible party for a rape and we need to be protecting and supporting survivors of sexual violence and not protecting perpetrators kate thank you so much for coming on call her daddy i know that this is just the beginning of the conversations and i'm so grateful to you and our relationship and getting to pick your brain all the time but i'm so happy that now my audience was also able to hear from you because you are so bright and you have such a incredible grasp on really one of the biggest fights that we as women are up against right now and it sometimes feels truly unimaginable that change could actually happen i think sometimes it feels like it's going to happen and i think it's going to happen and i think it's going to happen it feels like you're just yelling into a void i feel like that sometimes on my show where i'm like we're talking about it again here we are again um but i do think that these moments we have to get loud and we have to sit and talk and look at each other and i believe that that's the only way through is to just keep forcing conversation and i know it's not going to change overnight but i do believe that the amount of women who are coming forward with their stories it feels different right now and so we need to keep the momentum up i am so grateful for this conversation alex because this is doing the work this is lending your voice and your platform and your advocacy to stand up for survivors in a way that truly matters and that means the world to me and i let's not let a single other alleged victim of sexual assault end up so unhelped and so unheld in the optima i i agree with you it's almost like the last statement is to her yeah um to jane doe i we stand with you and also i feel so hurt for you that your trauma had to become you had to go through this to have this trauma and i feel so hurt for you that your trauma had to become you have now this movement start to happen you should have never had to go through this but just also know and i hope she feels some form of comfort and seeing how many women are standing there on the front line with her saying i am jane doe too and i think this is one of those steps so thank you so much for your time thank you so much for flying here this is a less than 24 hour trip and then you're back to cornell and you're gonna fight the good fight and we will follow along and i know that we'll be loud for you and whatever you need i am here as an ally thank you alex