Speaker 1willow's a shih tzu she's like this big i don't know why i'm putting my hands in front of the microphone that's not that's not how microphones work um she's like this big and she's a princess okay but the one thing her superpower is she can she can sense when something's wrong and she's like up on the couch looking at me as i'm looking back at her having a smoke and thinking about jumping and i'm like i can't leave her i can't abandon her because in my mind everybody's evil and have to ruin my life including god like god probably hates me so if i leave she'll be defenseless because she's defenseless to begin with and and there'll be nobody to take care of her and i love her and then that that last thing that i thought was like i love her and i'm like yeah and i was like and she loves me i'm like well then maybe i'm not maybe there's something worth saving and i was like you know what we could put a pin on the suicide we could just postpone that 24 hours
Speaker 2hi there welcome back or welcome to recovering out loud podcast the show where we get real about mental health and addiction i'm so glad you're here if you or someone you love is struggling with drugs or alcohol please reach out for help send me a message on all social media platforms at recovering out loud pod or by email at recovering out loud pod at gmail.com you are no longer alone
Speaker 1like i was actually just saying like my you'd think with an ego as large as mine i would actually see it coming like i would see when it's affecting me and i made a joke it's like a stealth bomber loaded with bad decisions it just it just keeps like you don't even see it and the next thing you know like why am i what am i doing like oh i'm being run on you know letting my defects kind of run the show and um and then i'm surprised you know like oh well why didn't this work out it's like because you weren't like actually paying attention to reality you're up in your head and you're like this is all gonna work out this is exactly i know exactly how this is gonna go and you're like yeah you're doing it again oh okay so i try to laugh at myself when that happens
Speaker 2yeah me too it's sort of like um projecting this movie right we walk around with like movie projectors this is how it actually is and then reality's over here and yeah we're spinning this movie up on the screen yeah and it's no that's the movie that's that's what's happening that's
Speaker 1the truth yeah yeah and it's uh it's really not and and you know like i try to remember that it's like we're given brains for a reason like we like the ability to imagine to take like observations and then imagine something different like you know that's worked out pretty well for humanity like you know like tools um more money you know the ability to exchange value um like every piece of technology can be used to change the world and i think that's a really good point every piece of technology can be used to change the world and i think that's a really good point every piece of technology can be used to change the world and i think that's a really good point every piece of technology can be used to change the world and i think that's a really good point every piece of technology can be used to change the world and i think that's a really good point every piece of technology can be used to change the world and i think that's a really good point technology came from somebody imagining something that didn't exist and and that's great you know um the problem is that it's the discernment right it's the like okay so i've got an idea okay well that's nice like is it making me happy is it going to be useful which is like i'm stealing that from some guy on a podcast um i don't remember which one but uh and then like if it is um you know maybe maybe stay on that um stay with that thought and see where it goes but like for the most part uh it's just like scroll to the next thought you know like because i think of the brain as like an algorithm you know we've got these like you know you go on your phone you see what it's learning right so the more time you spend with a thought the more it tries to make thoughts like that and support that the more energy you put into a thought the more the deeper into that thought you're going to go and for me that can be useful but it can also be really unhealthy i can just sit with like negative thoughts for a long time and then have feelings
Speaker 2about thoughts and thoughts anyway what are the majority of those thoughts recently for you
Speaker 1the negative ones i mean i have a lot of um let's get right into it i guess uh um tell me your deepest deepest secrets yeah i'm like uh boy um i think so i started drinking when i was 13 give or take uh and they say you know once you start drinking at least and i drank alcoholically probably right from the start because my i was in a band when i was 17 and they gave me a shirt instant asshole just out alcohol and i remember very clearly like a bunch of times my bandmates kind of like not loving drunk tom's um and so when you're drinking like that you're you're drinking to avoid the consequences and like you're not developing as a human being so emotionally like i'm probably like i don't know 15 years old sometimes well like a lot of times um and so the thoughts i have are a little bit like a 15 year old boy not a little bit they're identical a 15 year old boy uh so it's a lot of these things about like girls are scary like i want to run up and pull their hair instead of like being like a thoughtful caring person um the world is scary um it's really hard for me to remember like you know what like just because you do have a 15 year old boys inside of you doesn't mean you can't parent that and like manage those emotions yourself you like you can do that like i'm capable like if you were to say hey i'm having a bad day you know um i don't know like i like i tore i've got a huge hole in the back of my jeans right now i thought you were joking about that no it's like it's a thing um and i was like nobody's gonna notice and i wanted to wear these jeans because these are like i look i think i look cool in these jeans except for you know the back where i look like a person that doesn't know that they have a huge hole in their jeans anyway but if you were to call me i can't believe it i was on the ttc and i had this huge hole in my jeans i'd be like oh man that sucks you know like i could probably talk to you and like you know in a kind compassionate way and and listen and be like you know what you're a good guy you know so it's turning that voice to myself and being like okay like you know but i do have a lot of thoughts about relationships like those are scary um trying to rebuild my life like trying to get back into the work into work and a career uh just feeling like you know like imposter syndrome is a really common one yeah yeah yeah
Speaker 2i don't deserve this right how did i get here like i i don't belong i don't deserve this yeah i've come up with that from time to time for sure yeah um yeah let's get right into it i guess what's the uh what was your sort of childhood like how did you find alcohol and drugs and what did they
Speaker 1do for you yeah okay um so uh like i said i was i was really into music um so you know i worked like a fellow i'm in a fellowship um and uh we go through steps and one of the steps is an is an inventory and i've done that a couple times and one of the benefits of going through that work is that you start to realize not everybody was out to get you you know um so when i first went through it i was like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh my god i'm gonna be like oh you know mom and dad are terrible and they're alcoholics and blah blah blah and that's all true but one of the things i started to remember is a lot of the good things about my childhood and one was like my mom knew that i loved music and she like when i was a kid i would go up to these this like techniques organ that we had in our house and i would play along to the music on the radio when i was like six years old so i had that that you know i had an ear for music which is just something some people have um and so i i was like i really wanted to be in bands and i and i just loved music so i got into bands because uh my mom would literally drive me to like ottawa i lived in kempville she'd drive me to ottawa to try out for these bands when i was like 15 years old and she also loaned me the money to buy my first keyboard because there's a keyboard player it was like ross the ross geller of the band you know not like the cool guy i was like the nerdy guy like you know like so it's not that well whatever um and eventually i got into i got into a couple bands and and then i found one where i like we were actually in that for a couple years and we actually like made an album in the studio kind of like this place in ottawa and um it was a big part of my life but i was also scared out of my mind you know because the kids were older they were like two three years old and they were like older than me um and i just and i i was just like you know it's intimidating to play music in front of people so i started turning to alcohol to do that and yeah i remember going to this one like party in a field where there was a bunch of bands like playing and this one guy that was really cool and he looked like axel rose and he was literally drinking like a bottle of jack daniels you know and pouring coke into it and you know and i was like i want to be that guy and um that's that was like one of the reasons i really started drinking a lot the other reason was um well i you know that's i kind of misspoke there i heard somebody say like none of the things that happened to me made me an alcoholic i am an alcoholic and these things happened um but when i took those drinks it's it was it was the fact that i'm an alcoholic that really you know determined the course of my life because uh you know we talk about like a mental obsession and a physical allergy right um but another thing that like wasn't great was when i was a kid uh my dad after he divorced my mom he got sober he went into the rooms he met a woman she sponsored him and then she married him so she 13th stepped him as they say and uh i clocked that i'm like that's not cool but he had also kind of sat me down and said you know this like now that i'm sober dad's back you're gonna we're gonna have we're gonna have a great time and then i remember getting into his sports car that he bought this iroc yeah yeah like the cheesiest sports car you could buy and i remember thinking yeah this would be really great i'm gonna sit next to my dad and and he's like you got to sit in the back like jackie's sitting in the front and i just like i remember that like being so pissed off about that and so i got dragged to alateen i got dragged all these meetings and we say like attraction rather than promotion this was like if this was shoved down my throat and i had the quiz given to me of like are you an alcoholic and i was like not ready for that like at all so i resisted it and uh yeah yeah yeah so got kind of a shitty taste in my mouth very early about like one i was drinking and i was almost drinking at her of like you know what like i know what'll piss you off the most is if i keep doing this so i did it um yeah but that was high school yeah and then so you carried on and what sort of
Speaker 2what was the moment that you kind of were brought to your knees or you realized that this wasn't working the way it used to or you know i need help what was that first moment like
Speaker 1well the first time was actually just a couple years later and i had actually did the whole music thing and then i actually like shaved my i'm just gonna take my toque off actually because it's hot in here um so i shaved my head and i moved i was all over the place i i like dropped out of high school for a while and i was like a landscaper and it was all i was all over the place but yeah i you know long story short i i decided to clean up my act and get into a good university and i did i got into a good university and i did i got into a good university and i got into the royal military college of canada which is um like it's a full scholarship and i wanted to be in the army and that was all going to be good um and i stopped drinking for a while too and then to celebrate we went to the beef baron in london which is a very prestigious establishment it's got a uh it's got a ten dollar all you can eat uh beef sandwich buffet right next to like the champagne rooms right and so um we went to the beef baron in london and we went to the and then on the way home i told the guys to pull over so i could punch a guy in the face and i went to jail and uh i remember sitting in that jail cell being like okay i just like ruined my entire life in like five minutes um and luckily well i i said that's it i'm going to quit drinking and i went to a few meetings and um and then they kind of like they kind of um they didn't kick me out of the army they didn't shut down my scholarship they sent me off because they're kind of like used car real recruiters are kind of like used car salesmen for humans and they're like we've already closed that deal i've already got my commission like i'm not reversing it i don't know that's kind of that's not a very nice thing to say but um but uh anyway long story short there were no consequences and so i clocked that and i was like you know what i kind of i got this i got this and so just to like i won't take you through my entire life because it's long um but the moment when i actually got down on i didn't get down on my knees but i was like god help me i was 49 so probably another 30 years of my life that i spent um not being willing yeah and that's when i that's when i was like okay i'm either gonna kill myself or i'm gonna go back to aa and try it so yeah
Speaker 2that's awesome i mean i think a lot of people need to hear that it's never too late though too right like i i've always used to hear that man because i came in at 23 and um i remember there was like i'd go into you know you hear all the things like oh you know i don't think anyone's ever directly said this to me but uh you know i've spilled more alcohol than you've drank in sun right and uh i remember somebody in a meeting one time saying like i came in young and let me tell you i suffered like i remember her saying that and i suffered you know what i mean like i belong here i qualify to be here because i suffered and everyone's suffering looks different right yeah that's not to say that you didn't suffer for all those years yeah right but it's like people come in when they come in and their time is their time yeah and you can't force it on anybody like did you have people that were um sort of pushing like i mean i guess so you had your family pushing you in that direction which
Speaker 1yeah um i mean the uh my stepmother left the scene and actually i turned my back on my family when i was like early 20s um i've had i've lost jobs because of the things i did when i was under the influence of alcohol um i've been to jail a few times uh been homeless like i i slept on a yoga mat in a gym uh that i didn't own it was funny because a few months earlier i had owned a next thing you know i'm like sleeping on a buddy's uh in a buddy's gym in the back room in the squat rack you know and i made a joke oh my powerlifting career is going to make a comeback now i'm so committed i'm literally living here yeah that's not what's going on tom um so you know just the insanity of like and the funniest thing too sorry i know i'm not answering your question directly but the number of times that i would be like at absolute rock like i'd be at rock bottom like it'd be like and i still wasn't i wasn't low enough for me like everybody else would maybe say like this is suffering like you're homeless and i'm like yeah but i you know what i got this guy to let me stay in the back of his gym and like i've got this and the amount of confidence that i had at those moments was on like like that was the highest level confidence i had and then as stuff would start to get like i'd actually start to put my life back together because i was a functional athlete and i'd be like oh that's actually a thing but you know i wouldn't drink till 5 p.m every night i would just run on like red bull and ignorance it's all about 4 30 and then i'd be like oh this is my life sucks oh i guess i'll drink but yeah i would be like i got this every single time and um and i you know i had a buddy too we served together in the army i was in the army for 10 years and he always kind of like kept tabs on me from a distance and i remember one time him picking me up in his truck and loading up all my gym gear and all this other stuff and putting me up in his basement and the very first thing i did was like find the nearest bar and go get fucked up and he put up with me for a while and then he was like you gotta go like my my wife is like just she can't stand having you around um but it was many many years of very very of a very lonely life yeah and and yeah
Speaker 2what would you say is the the biggest thing that sort of helped you finally stop
Speaker 1so i'm really stubborn um and that's not i'm not i i used to think that was a good quality yeah and it can be hard working it can be hard working yeah banging your head against the walls not okay so there's anyway um so the reason that i find that i'm really stubborn is because i don't know i don't know i don't know the reason that i finally stopped was because i was i was downtown toronto i was living in a condo by myself it was like a two-bedroom condo on the 43rd floor great view uh i had a company and i had um six people on my payroll five people five people my myself included six people on payroll a couple contractors and we had um like tens of thousands of dollars coming in every month and i was like looking over the gardener and And I was thinking like, I should probably just kill myself because, uh, I thought like, if I make enough money, if I, if I do this, if I do this, if I do this, you know, I'll be happy and this feeling will go away. And I knew I had enough money to keep drinking the level I was drinking for at least a few more years. And, um, and I knew every morning I woke up just absolutely terrified, like shaking and I couldn't sleep. And I was just like, oh my God, like I'm in hell and I don't know what to do. And I was just like, well, maybe I should kill myself. And then I look over and I've got this, I've got like this dog. You've probably heard me talk about the dog, right? Willow. And she's, uh, and anyways, Willow's a shih tzu. She's like this big. I don't know why I'm putting my hands in front of the microphone. That's not, that's not how microphones work. Um, and, uh, she's like this big and she's a princess. Okay. But the one thing, her superpower, she can, she can sense when something's wrong and she's like up on the couch looking at me as I'm looking back at her having a smoke and thinking about jumping. And I'm like, I can't leave her. I can't abandon her. Um, cause in my mind, everybody's evil. I have to ruin my life, including God. Like God probably hates me. Um, so if I leave, she'll be defenseless cause she's defenseless to begin with. And, and there'll be nobody to take care of her. And I love her. And then that, that last thing that I thought was like, I love her. And I'm like, yeah. And I was like. And she loves me. I'm like, well then maybe I'm not, maybe there's something worth saving. And I was like, you know what? We can put a pin on the suicide and we could just postpone that 24 hours and we'd go to a meeting and see what happens. And if, if it doesn't work out, we could just come back to the suicide idea. And so I did. And that was like, uh, well, I actually know it was two years, two months and 23 days ago.
Speaker 2That's amazing, man. Do you remember, I'm sure, well, maybe you do, but do you remember hearing anything at that, that meeting that kind of kept you wanting to go back?
Speaker 1Honestly, this is kind of bothering me. And it has been, it's like, I remember it was a zoom meeting because I was afraid to leave. I had like a agoraphobia. Like I was afraid, I was just afraid of everything. I was afraid to go outside. Um, so I just went to zoom meetings and I, all I remember is this guy from Georgia who was, became my temporary sponsor almost immediately. And got me through like the first month, but I don't remember the first meeting. Like I don't. Yeah.
Speaker 2I think, and I, I, so I think a lot of people say that where they're like, I don't remember what was said, but it's more so, and this is, you know, to the point of, to me, it proves the power of, of community of recovery community. It doesn't have to be 12 step. Doesn't, I don't care what the fuck it is. There's a community, right? You need some kind of community in my experience, my opinion. But there's an energy in that, in that, that meeting, that room, um, that keeps me, that kept me coming back. Right. My first meeting experience was in Minnesota because I went there for treatment. I didn't know anything about 12 step recovery. I didn't know anything about recovery at all. And they forced me to go. And I said, and all these kids were talking about it. I was 23. They were all younger than me. Yeah. They were like, yeah, this place is like, you know, it's scary. And there's these old dudes with beards. There's a men's meeting. It was called, uh, it was called like bad boys or mad dogs or something. Okay. It was all biker dudes, like duck dynasty to a T. Oh, right. So I'm walking into this place where, you know, the, the duck line, right. A line of like a line of ducks from rehab getting out of the druggy buggy, like, right. Right. Yeah. And all these dudes are sitting on their Harleys smoking cigarettes, just looking at us. Right. Like just stay. I'm like, this is, how did I end up here? Like, how is this going to help me? One and two, how the fuck did I end up here? But there was something about it that, you know, attracted me. So, and I don't remember anything that was said in that meeting, but I do remember a bunch of dudes sharing vulnerably. Yeah. A bunch of tough looking motherfuckers getting open and talking about things that I felt I couldn't be more different than these guys, but I felt that camaraderie of like, I felt that I felt that I felt that. And then that was sort of the spark that was like, I don't know what's going on here, but I need it. Yeah. I want it. And I need it because the way I was living, not ideal, not ideal whatsoever. And, uh, you know, me in hotel rooms by myself doing coke all night. Yeah. Not fun anymore.
Speaker 1Yeah. It's oh God. Yeah. Like I, the thing that I remember, I remember, I remember Keith because it was like this bald six year old black guy from Georgia and just the energy off of him, the, like the optimism and the hope and the kindness. I remember that. And I remember him like, kind of like, I remember it was a zoom meeting that he was, he, it was like his own. Meeting or something. And I remember going through a few meetings and I'll be honest, I logged into one and it was like, you know, three, like, you know, how zoom meetings can be. I won't even, okay. But like, I was like, this is not the meeting for me. This is not meeting for me. And then I came on and he was like, Hey friend, you know? And it was just like, oh shit. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And then, and I like attention, so it was nice to be seen. Um, and, uh, and then he sent me, he literally sent me a big book and a 12 and 12. And he signed both of them, like not just signed, but put like a whole block. And I still look at that sometimes, you know? And, um, yeah. And it really, uh, yeah, I mean, it, yeah.
Speaker 2So it was, it saved your life. Yeah. It saved my life. I mean, yeah. In my opinion. Yeah. Um, I can say the same thing, right? Like I, I don't know where I was headed. Right. Um, I, I had thought about not being here anymore. I had, uh, I hadn't really planned it out until my last relapse. And I wouldn't even say planned it out, but honestly, and mine was the same thing. I remember looking, I'm on the 35th floor of my building and I remember in this last relapse kind of like sitting on the couch and like, just, I kind of just like imagined what it would be like to fall. This is going to trigger some people, but just to fall 35. And I was like, huh? Yeah. I've never thought about that before. That's kind of, and that scared the shit out of me. I was like, Oh boy, I better, you know, do some more drugs or get out of this. Yeah. And then, so. As we do, you know, you do the more drinking and the more drugs and it just gets worse and worse and worse, but that scared the shit out of me. Right. What, what do they say about change? It's, uh, when the fear of staying the same is greater than the fear of changing.
Speaker 1Yeah. That's, that was what kind of drove me is I was just like, like every day is the same, you know? And, um, actually my first couple, first six months I listened to a lot. I, I always loved Nine Inch Nails, uh, cause I'm like a keyboard guy and he made keyboards kind of cool. Um, and, um, but there, but then I realized like a lot of the lyrics, um, like somewhat damaged as a, as a song from, from, um, from Nine Inch Nails and it's all about like how alcohol is not working anymore. Like it, cause it worked for a while and then, you know, uh, I won't try to quote the song, but you know, it's tried so hard to be like you all alone and where were you? And it's, it's, it's all about like, it got me to this place where. I was alone and it used to feel warm and safe. Like everything else about life was terrifying. And then I'd go home and I'd sit in front of my computer and I'd start drinking and I'd feel like finally I'm safe. This is my happy place. And then all of a sudden my happy place just became like, it just, it wasn't like there'd be a moment, you know, where you feel it touch your lips and you're like, Oh, everything's going to be fine. And you know, that feeling too, when you're on your way to the liquor store and you already feel like all your problems have been solved. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it hadn't, it didn't, I don't think it had anything to do with the chemical. It was just this like act of like, I give up alcohol is in charge, you know, and it's going to solve all my problems. And it really didn't. And, um, and yeah, it was just like, I can't. And there wasn't so many times I was like, Oh, I've got to stop. And I remember telling my therapist once, um, yeah, you know what? Like Tuesday I ordered a meal from Uber eats and they only ordered one old fashioned. And I had that drink and everything was fine. And I went to bed. So I'm like not an alcoholic. And she was like, well, what about the other six days of the week? I'm like, well, let's not get into like, come on. Like, why do you have to be so negative? You know, like, like this is proof N equals one and I'm fine. And that I, I, anyway, I was not fine. Um, yeah.
Speaker 2So we're really good at forgetting all the bad. It's always like I cut the movie off right when I do the first line and then I forget about the, you know, or I'm having that one drink at the bar and then I leave out the after hours club by myself dancing for six hours or whatever the fuck I was doing. Um, I had a friend of mine, Billy used to always say, and thank you for bringing that up. Cause I had not thought about that for a while. This, this, uh, anticipation of getting, you know, even though my thing was drugs, your thing was drinking. I can totally relate. And my friend Billy said one time I used to love just the weight of the six pack, like just the weight of it. And for me, it was just having the Coke in my hand. Yeah. I just. Just having it in my hand alone. I was like, yeah. And then you do it and it's just all downhill. Yeah. Yeah. right yeah how the fuck did i how did you untrain that how did i untrain that like how i guess my thought with that is because that has to be unlearned right like you have to unlearn that pattern of good time i'll call my hand yeah you know what i mean a safety i'll call my hand i think for me it was i had to replace it with good good behaviors right good associations yeah um
Speaker 1man i don't know um i uh oh god i don't want to talk about my 50th birthday because it involves going out on a date and that went horribly wrong and not drinking after um and but i remember walking into my my house after i guess i'm gonna talk about it fuck that's why i love you all right so i'm like i'm i'm 50 years old i'm turning 50 i've gotten a year of sobriety i guess yeah a little bit over a year anyway like not very much and i've got a job too like i got this job as like some like it was like a fancy job that i thought like my ego thought like this is great making a lot of money um don't really know what i'm doing i'm stressed out all the time and uh and then and i had this i met somebody that uh she was in my building she was a lot younger and um and not in the program or anything like that and she was like and and we were kind of like friends but whatever and she's like i'm gonna take you out for your birthday and uh she takes me out for the birthday and then there was just this thing oh god i'm not even gonna basically she was just like i got i know you're sober and like i really want to know more about this because i'm struggling and i'm not going to be able to do it i'm not going to be able to do it i'm not going to and i was just like i was like uh like the one thing that i did that was probably slightly honorable was i was like people that are in personal relationships with you really shouldn't be like like like i can show you where to find like a program but like you know i'm i'm kind of biased here because like we're we're in a relationship and so like you need to find somebody ideally a woman that can help you get through this kind of stuff and she kind of got that and then she went upstairs to the bathroom and she came back down and she's like yeah i'm gonna go out to the club see you later and just like left and that was the last time i ever spoke to her and it was my birthday and i was kind of bummed out because like you know i had a lot of expectations about how my birthday was supposed to go and none of them and i remember coming home and being like well this is a pattern that i used to follow which is like i tried to like go out in the world and meet someone and be real and it didn't work out and then i went home and i and i to sleep because poor me poor me and look like i tried i tried really hard and i i remember i called like four or five guys that night because i'm like yeah this is a danger zone uh luckily the lcbos had closed by the time i got home but you know i was also at the keg when it happened so like i was lucky but yeah like these patterns of behavior of like feeling sorry for myself and then making and then drinking so i still feel sorry for myself and then drinking and then feeling sorry for myself all the time i'm kind of hoping that'll go away one day but uh yeah so yeah that was a pivotal moment though for you right like yeah i think a lot of
Speaker 2us have these moments where it's like i was very close to relapsing and i didn't because i called four guys yeah you know i and that i think you answered my question where it's like well what do you do instead i was taught to reach out for help when i'm spiraling that's not me i don't normally do that that's not my fucking default mode no my default is band-aid quick fix yeah quick you know yeah whatever yeah luckily it
Speaker 1was so extreme and these are the things too like there's the wow like this is not a good situation i'm really gonna need some help it's it's the like it's the you know you look at the big book it's like the the milk and the whiskey yeah yeah it's the little things yeah that can really fuck with you yeah because uh you you're like i got this yeah so there's see
Speaker 2seemingly insignificant uh problems or plans that you have yeah i always talk about the uh yeah the the adhd medication thing that uh yeah and it always stems in my opinion my experience from these rationalizations these justifications yeah no i'm doing the right thing anthony you're
Speaker 1good buddy just keep on keep on going on right yeah yeah yeah yeah so i do feel obliged to report that my 51st birthday was amazing i'm not gonna lie to you i'm not gonna lie to you i'm not gonna it was fantastic uh saw metallica nice wow yeah and uh and i spent time uh with with someone that's pretty important to me and um and uh it's a completely different kind of uh relationship so you know that was that was kind of awesome um yeah it was a good birthday yeah what would you
Speaker 2say are your daily kind of essentials for recovery to stay sober
Speaker 1um so uh my morning cigarette no that's probably not but the thing is is that i and i do like um all right now i get up in the morning and i have a little checklist that i follow uh because my sponsor gave it to me and it's just a little mindfulness exercise it takes like two minutes just like what do i see what do i hear what do i speak what do i touch um i'm okay i put my hand on my chest to say i'm okay i'm safe and i'm loved and then i i just take a moment to like think about that am i i'm like yeah i am i'm good i'm good today um i take a deep breath uh like feel my toes on the ground and then uh i deserve a high five why oh and also what am i feeling how do i feel like oh fuck feelings like i remember like my therapist used to always ask me what do you feel like and i'm like oh my god i'm okay i'm sorry i'll stay on i'll stay on the point um so i'll think about i'm like how am i feeling like oh oh i feel i feel grateful okay cool um you know it doesn't always isn't always great like sometimes i'll feel sad like okay you feel sad that's okay um but checking in with my feeling and then it's like okay three seven and eleven it's like i usually go to a morning meeting a men's meeting uh but even if i don't i kind of look up and i'm like all right what are we doing i i call i call my higher power janice sometimes just to fuck with people because i like to piss christians off so apologies i don't want to cause any like but it's just because like i just like to be an argumentative asshole sometimes and make people go like what um but i'll be like yeah okay hi and i'll talk to to god for like a minute or two just to be like yeah you're in charge not me um and then yeah i'll uh usually go through um the third step seventh step and 11th step prayer um and um and then i get on with my day i i used to spend like an hour an hour and a half fucking around trying to make sure i was getting my morning routine right and would drive me bananas perfectionism oh my god and now it's just like look like let's try to get through this within 20 minutes and get up get going um because like i don't want to sit staring at my navel for too long because i'll drive myself fucking and then usually i'll take my dog for a walk and get outside get outside hold that thought i have
Speaker 2to take a piss sure i was just thinking as i as i did that uh that beats all the amount of times i used to go to the bathroom for the reasons i used to go to the bathroom for yeah i thought no one knew but yeah so you do that you start your day yeah um what is what is uh what does spirituality mean to you and and how do you like what yeah what does that mean
Speaker 1oh boy um uh i i actually don't i don't know i don't know if there's somebody like in charge of the universe or uh for me um i know that i'm not in charge of the universe that's pretty important um and also like thinking about like the enormity of the universe like like there's like what seven eight billion i don't know how many billion people we got now but there's there's probably at least a couple there's a lot of people uh so this idea of like somebody up there like you know looking down on a cloud or whatever and i don't know i don't know i here's a couple things that have really helped me when i'm really struggling in the morning when i'm really struggling in the morning um a lot of times it's the morning where i'm like god like i'm really struggling with this you know and like i went to bed and i woke up and it's still on my mind and i quiet i just like get quiet and i've i've kind of said my prayers or maybe i can't even wait and it's just like okay listen what should you do and then i'll i'll know like they'll say like you know like you're going to be okay everything's fine well what should i do and like it will kind of it's very simple it'll come to me like okay this is what i should do this is the thing that i should do and um so that voice is very helpful also i mean i'd be remiss not to like use some sort of weightlifting metaphor at least once and like this talk is like you know i've worked out a couple times um the the the uh i'm just trying to keep this as much focused on my program and not my own ideas as i can uh which is really hard because you're asking me and i i'm like so full of myself and i love to sound smart and i think that's the point is it's um the path for me to my higher power is through the program that i work it's through service it's through connecting with a sponsee and it's like training wheels for finding like my higher power and it's like training wheels for finding like my higher power and it's like training wheels for finding like my higher power and it's like training wheels for finding like my higher power it's like look if i'm really struggling i'll go to a meeting and i'll try to listen to the readings and i'll try maybe just to listen um and then i'll find the things i need to help guide me through the day um yeah so i really i love when people like what what's what's what's who's god and how's that work i'm like oh goody goody let's have like it's like it doesn't fucking matter like my philosophy and reading about like consciousness and all like i study ai for fun like i'm not saying that to brag i'm like that's how complicated i can make life yeah like i'll use ai to figure out like what's the best restaurant in toronto when i could just like use yelp you know like i'm i over complicate every fucking thing and one thing that helps me is like you know when you're trying to drive a car it really helps to not try to like work on the car at the same time so if you give your self over to the care of a higher power and you say like it's gonna care for me you don't need to like try to figure out what it is while you're asking for care you can just accept it and i was listening to these speaker tapes uh joe and charlie yeah yeah and i was going to this meeting on the east side this is a long this was like a year and a half ago and they were like you know what just what kind of higher power do you want to have and i was like you mean you can have whatever you want and i'm like i'd like a kind higher power that loves me and sees that i'm just doing my fucking best and sometimes it's really scary and and i just want somebody that makes me feel like i'm okay and everything's gonna be fine and they're like okay well boom there you go and i asked the higher power like what should i do and they're like well you're on the way to a meeting but you're kind of hangry maybe you should stop and get a sandwich and i stopped at a subway and got a sandwich and the guy offered me free bacon i should have gotten a sandwich i should have gotten you not and i was like there is a god and he wants me to have bacon so um i was just like i'm in i'm in you know and that's like and that worked and i went to the meeting i was really happy because
Speaker 2like i i need carbs to be happy yeah but you know it's it's interesting it's sort of like um because i heard it said you know higher power is like an inner teacher right yeah an inner teacher where it's like it's kind of this guiding force for me but it's also like my consciousness at the same time right and yeah i agree with that but it's also like my consciousness at the same time right i agree with you 100 the more i try to figure it out the worse it is for me and the more stressed i get about it and then the more the less i listen to it as well and follow the direction that i'm given i don't need to understand it today i can make it into this like detective movie you know whodunit like yarn connecting all the people you know you know that's the way i can make it yeah and it sounds like you can do the same thing but the more i just kind of acknowledge that it's everywhere it's everything yeah it speaks through people um and also i know what the right answer is sometimes i just need to listen and that's why meditation is it escapes me but it's also the most beneficial yeah and that's why i love that morning group where for 15 minutes anthony you're going to follow some
Speaker 1direction just listen to yeah the guided meditation yeah and let life happen yeah yeah um yeah and and and a lot of times too like i'll try to just listen to people but um i forgot to do the weightlifting metaphor oh yeah you know you talked about the inner teacher like the thing is in the gym like when i go to the gym and i do a bunch of squats i'm not getting stronger while i'm doing the squats i'm actually getting weaker like i'm breaking down muscle tissue and those little micro tears are where um new proteins new proteins can come in and they can um reconstitute the muscle stronger when i let go and let god and when i say i don't need to figure it out i'm letting my brain like sorry when that happens is when you're resting when you're when you're not squatting when you go home and you sit on the couch and you watch netflix that's when that happens so when i say i don't understand it i'm gonna sit quietly i'm gonna turn my brain off and then i'm gonna wait that's the opportunity for god to come in and kind of like improve the way my brain works slightly and i that's what i'm noticing like i turn the brain off it rests and then it comes back and it's like i got a great idea why don't you just do your dishes and while you're doing your dishes just actually pay attention to the dishes like oh well that won't solve all my problems no but it will solve one like your dishes will be done and you won't get in shit when the dishes are not okay i love that though yeah i know it's true
Speaker 2and then in the process of doing it you're just like you're not thinking about one more problem
Speaker 1oh no yeah yeah um and i yeah yeah um because i've had it pointed out to me by somebody who actually cares about me although i can understand why that can be frustrating sometimes i'm very sorry if you're okay uh anyways um you know like sometimes i'm like i'm eight problems ahead and the spoons aren't actually going to get cleaned if they're all jammed in the front of the dishwasher that doesn't work um so taking the time to do things properly but i really want to like use a metaphor from computer science please what i love metaphors okay so in in computer science there's two ways to store sets of data fundamentally and one's called an array and the other is called a you say like okay i got 10 10 variables i'm going to set aside 10 places and they're all going to have a number one two three four five six seven eight nine ten and then we're going to put information whether that's like the provinces of the capitals of the provinces canada you store them you put them in an array and i really hope i can pull this metaphor off we'll see a linked list is literally like i have a thing and i'm going to put information in that thing and then i have a link to the next thing and and a linked list you can build an infinitely long list with a linked list sort of like branches yeah yeah it's like well then there's a tree but okay let's not do a tree so for me sometimes when i start in the day my brain is an array it's got like i've filled the whole brain with all these ideas and then i've got this like list of the numbers to find all the different information and the problem with arrays is that they take up a lot of space and they're computationally intensive to to work through so if you can put it into a linked list and my point is a linked list is what's the next right thing next right thing is do the dishes what are you going to do after that i don't know maybe i'll call my sponsor okay so like let's go to the next thing boop we're doing that and the thing after that yeah sure maybe you want to remember that what the next thing is after fine it's the next thing everything after that will be revealed and that's the most efficient like if you actually look at like computer science like fundamentally the most efficient way to store information is in linked list it's just one thing at a time what's the next thing boop now we're at the next thing now um and everything everything more complicated than that i try to avoid because then my brain
Speaker 2just starts to heat up yeah and i get i love that man it's like i'm not going to think about the next thing until i'm done said thing yeah right and once i'm done said thing then i can start thinking about what's next yeah i can really thank you i can benefit from that i think a lot of people can benefit from that though and the way you're describing um what was the first one called again uh an array the way you're describing an array to me looks like that large spacious graph of so many ah yeah where do i start there's a million things on my wall right now then it's
Speaker 1overwhelmed yeah and overwhelm is just a sign of fear yeah so yeah i try to avoid the array and um
Speaker 2you know i think a lot of men would argue this but i think it's been proven that we cannot multitask at all efficient like humans they can't multitask right yeah you're someone listening i could do fucking two things at once right yeah but you so to that to my point my point is i can't do two things the same way i can't do two things at once i can't do two things at once i can't do two things at with the with the resolve with the intention with the yeah the same way i can do that one thing really well yeah it's better to do one thing really well than 10 things moderately or not
Speaker 1well yeah well and and the other thing about that is that um okay well in computer science too like this called overclocking and multi-processor so in multi-processing you can have a multi-processor that's like multiple things happening at the same time and you can't do two things at once at the same time, but the, but the, The operating system you need to actually set that up is incredibly complicated. And when you're multi-processing, you actually end up burning more resources than if you just had four computers that were each doing one of those processes. So like, it's not efficient. And the thing I notice when I'm just like, I'm doing the dishes and then I'm doing the next thing is that I'm calm and relaxed throughout the day, which is a lie. I just get, I get crazy no matter what. But I get, I'm calmer. And Bill Murray said, like, there's not a lot of things you can't do that you can't do better when you're relaxed. And I try, it's really hard. I struggle all the time. But if I can be relaxed, then I do a better job of the dishes. I can program a computer more effectively. I can have a conversation with a human more effectively. And when I get done, I don't feel tired. And so, yeah, for me, like, I love caffeine. And I love the rush of, like, I'm getting so much shit done. Like, I love it and I still do it. But when I notice that that's a struggle for me, I try to go, okay, like, how do I slow down, you know?
Speaker 2And it's so important, too. It leads into the beautiful one day at a time mantra that I, you know, have it on my bracelet. Sometimes I forget to look at it, but it's like, tomorrow is none of my concern. It doesn't even exist, right? All I have is today and people hate hearing that. I hate it. I still hate hearing it, but it's true. Like, what am I doing today for my recovery? Yesterday's recovery is not going to keep me sober today.
Speaker 1What am I doing today? Yesterday, today, and tomorrow, which is... I love that reading. And I really have to put this huge disclaimer on this of, like, I am so full of shit right now. Like, I'm always like, then I'm going to do this, then I'm going to do that. It's all going to work out and I'm going to win. And it's like, yeah, that's my default. And it's always going to be there. And, like, I get into that and I'm like, oh, God, I'm doing it again. And the difference is, I used to see that and I would beat the shit out of myself for having done that. And now I'm like, you're... And I still do beat the shit out of myself. Like, I am nowhere near perfect. Like, anybody that knows me knows, like, there's the Tom that talks about his program and then there's the Tom actually working his fucking program and those are two completely different people. But the one thing I'm trying to do is laugh at myself. And, like, the people around me that I really respect and that I reach to when I'm struggling or just, like, I like spending time with, they make fun of me. And I like that, you know, like, in a joking, loving way because I need to make fun of myself because I am crazy and the program helps me stay sane. But, like, it's okay that I'm crazy, you know? Like, you can laugh. You got to laugh at yourself.
Speaker 2I heard someone once say in a meeting that they could tell how good their program was, how strong their program was by how much they were able to not take themselves so seriously. Yeah. How much they were able to just laugh at themselves. Yeah. Right? Yeah. It's important, man, because, you know, when you take things too seriously, yeah, you drive yourself into the ground. Yeah. And then you, you know, you end up drinking again eventually, right? Maybe not right away. Yeah.
Speaker 1You're on the way. Yeah. And it's funny, too, because, like, I used to, like, quote, like, I'd have a bunch of, like, army sayings and shit. Like, I was, like, the worst soldier ever. Like, you know? Like, well, that's a little harsh. I actually, but I have no business walking around being, like, slow is smooth and smooth is fast, you know, just, like, in the teams. Like, I'm like, shut the fuck up. Shut the fuck up. But, but, God, what was I going to, I totally forgot what I was going to say now. See? So, like, yeah, I'm totally in, in, in, like, bullshit territory.
Speaker 2Ego. Yeah, no.
Speaker 1Oh, yeah. That's what it was. So, you know, one of the things, like, that I did hear, because I actually got to hang out with some guys that were pretty good soldiers, and they'd be like, you know, like, not a lot of shit's worth getting stressed out for. This is just a Tuesday. And you hear this. And a lot of different professions where people have experience and they're also, like, really fucking good at what they do is they're unflappable. Like, shit will happen. And they'll just be like, yeah, this isn't that bad. It's, it's really not that bad. Rolling with the punches. Yeah. Yeah. And being able to, like, that, that perspective of, like, this isn't really that bad allows you to stay calm and actually make good decisions. And that is something I saw with guys that were, you know, really good at, at being in the army was they were calm no matter what, you know?
Speaker 2Grace under pressure.
Speaker 1Yeah. They weren't like, yeah, let's kick the door in. And like, no, no, that was more me. I was just like.
Speaker 2I think it's the difference between acting in emotion and acting in logic too, right? Yeah. Sometimes it's, when I act in emotion, you know, I'm getting punched, right? Eventually. I'm getting punched out. Yeah. Yeah. Someone's getting hurt and it's probably going to be me. It always, actually, yeah. Yeah. Someone's getting hurt emotionally or physically. I think I'm going to hurt the other guy more, but I end up being hurt just as much or if not worse, right? Yeah, yeah. Let's end with this. If you could go back and say something to your alcoholic, addicted, active, addicted self, what would you say? Hi.
Speaker 1Go to a meeting. Yeah. I would say, you know, God. I would say it's okay. It's okay that you give a shit and that you care so much about this and everything around you because that was the problem. It wasn't that I didn't care about people. It was that I felt like I would, every time somebody would hurt me or something wouldn't go the way I wanted, I really cared about the things that I did and then they wouldn't work out the way I wanted and I would get angry. There's nothing wrong with caring about your life and wanting to help people because a lot of times I wanted, I really wanted to just help people. What's, it's, it's, what do you do with those emotions when things don't go the way you thought they should go? How do you find the stoicism of like letting go? And that I was always looking for, I was always looking for an instruction manual to life and that manual is the big book. That's the answer for, that was the answer for me of how do I, how do I keep caring about people? How do I keep showing up without having my heart ripped out and without feeling like this anger and this self-centered fear all the time? And I just had to read the fucking book. And yeah. So I love it now. But that past, um, page 125, I think I might know that cause that came up yesterday. Um, like our, all of these, all of the suffering that we went through becomes our greatest strength. So I don't know, I guess like, it's nice to say, yeah, maybe I'd go back in time and fix things, but like, I don't know if I'd really want that kind of responsibility. Yeah.
Speaker 2Love it. Thanks so much, Tom. I appreciate you, buddy. Thanks, man. Oh, good job, Anthony.
Speaker 3I appreciate it, bro. Thanks for listening. Please help us grow the channel and like, share, and subscribe for more content. The discussions and stories shared on this podcast are for informational and motivational purposes only. This content is not a substitute for professional medical advice, addiction treatment, or therapy. If you or someone you know is struggling with addiction, please consult a licensed physician, addiction specialist, or mental health professional. You are no longer alone. Thank you for listening to this podcast.
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