Hyrox Coaching Podcast Episode 1

All right, welcome to the first episode of the High Rocks Culture and Podcast. I'm Aaron Ruggman and this is Chris Baines and this is a podcast that you want to understand training, not just follow it. We're here for you. Each week the show is going to break down performance, physiology, racing and the reality behind what actually makes people better. No hype, no bullshit, just clear bit, thinking back to by culture experience and sports science. In this vast episode we're going to have a look at starting with who we are, what we do and how we got here. Right, let's get after it. Chris, go on then, you can start. What's your culture and history? Right, yeah, well, okay, first and foremost, I'm looking forward to this sort of podcast series. A little bit about yours and mine history is probably like the least sexy sliding into one's DMs where I think we just have become sort of incidental pen pals from across the world. So look, we both are obviously very passionate about the sport and we chat quite a bit when you suggested doing a podcast that I was more than happy to. A little bit about myself. I've been a coach for about 17 years now. First, probably the first eight or nine years of my career was very much in terms of strength and condition. It was the strength side of it. Did a lot of work learning under Charles Pollock on here was probably the first and foremost, my biggest mentor in terms of strength training. So that I'd say where is where my background was strongest and then moved to Sydney and worked under a guy that was much more into the endurance side. So sort of started getting into a bit of marathon running was quite big into the the earth community. So that's where my I'd say my love for endurance training and energy systems training has evolved. So early in the career, it was very much about strength and conditioning in terms of the strength side and really my early coaching sort of niche was the body composition stuff that the physique athletes, the bikini girls. So we can talk about coaching philosophies, but just that sort of what I was doing the first eight or nine years and then I've got far more into the endurance side. I think ultimately that's a lot more interesting. So that's a sort of meaning and natural and what about yourself? So at the same time, 2009 was when I first qualified. I started on the gym floor, one to one class based sessions, making lots of mistakes and learning that everyone is very different. I came from a rugby background and then in 2012, I really started a dabblem of a bit of the endurance side of stuff. So before that, rugby and a little bit of crossfit type stuff, but more wicked than it and just trying to learn bits and pieces when I long, but I hated the gymnastics and didn't have the patience for Olympic lifting really. So went back into trying to run marathon. So 2012 around one and it didn't go very well. So for like just for the long for a little bit, carried on coaching. 2014, I started upgrading everything. So moved on to I spent 18, 19 months doing courses to get qualified as a rehab exercise therapist basically and that's when I started really running. So bumped it up stupidly to overloaded myself, got every injury possible, load from it, qualified off the back of the air and then went into a day job where it's basically working with patients one to one and in group sessions every day from everything from like you know, same time called to ACL real constructions to amputees, brain injuries, so covered in massive flethora of injuries and training for course. And then you know, when you when you get better at things, people off your more money to do different things. So I got off at a job to working the the biggest rehab center in the UK in England, near Lafbrough and basically I didn't for a year or so, in fact, a little bit longer in my own way. But I did that job for a year. I was in charge of five or six different gym in a couple of swamples and I do ferrically stuff and a team of nearly 30 different exercise therapists, I ate it. I traveled a community every week and I learned a lot about management and stuff, but that's when I started, this is 2023 and it's when I started five rocks. Well I found my rocks 2022 started coaching 2023 around this time so I was commuting from Northern Ireland back to the UK, trying to coach and it wasn't sustainable. So I left that job, came back to Northern Ireland, but still in a rehab management role and I've decided I'm going to leave that now and just crack on with normal online coaching. So in that time I've done all the qualifications and CBD that I think I've did a strength in the conditioning, you could agree that I'd probably hardly use it all because it's nice to have a piece of paper, but it doesn't really teach you anything about how to deliver stuff to people and what really works for people. So you can have all the qualifications under the sun, you need to be out there picking up experience, doing stuff for people I think to really get this and the relationships you build is what really makes coaching the top to you, taking over touch stuff. And I guess from your introduction to high rocks and I guess from the coaching side of it maybe even the race side of what would you say has changed for you in your perception of the race or even had your coach people and what has fundamentally stayed the same? So it's underpinned by a Robic economy or a Robic capacity, you can skin it whatever you want to call it, but you need a big engine to be able to work hard and dip in and out of that threshold into really high end stuff and then still be a little bit covered. So without a big engine you're not going to be like a forbry role, so that's really my like the crux of it. Maximal strength is not as important as it made out to be, like I think maximal strength is important. Did you ever figure it was? I don't, I think I involved, I included too much of it in the beginning because I came from pure running and to be fair my strength work was 20 minutes, 30 minutes twice a week to stop me from turning into a spaghetti. So even at the beginning with a pro sled I can push it, even with the old whalves and sleds. The first time I did it, it wasn't, it was harder but it wasn't that hard and I think if you've got the ability to push the sled it's more about pushing the sled over time faster. So once you get to a certain point it's counterproductive to keep going with maximum strength stuff. For like health and health you can't, you can't be too strong. It's a good thing for a health market but there are other ways of doing it rather than sets of real vibe and in a gym. You need to balance it with every finesse. Strength, endurance on the other hand is a game changer for high risk because that's what it is. The ability to repeat at force on the fatigue is what you need and they have in a 1-watt max bench of 150 kilos it's going to have almost no cross effect. Yeah great sort of. It sort of, when I first got into it I was probably a little bit lighter than the new was 2024, I think my first one in Sydney. I would have done it the year prior. I think it came to Australia a year or two later. I guess I was doing a lot of that. I was training pretty well known in Sydney called 98 Riley and that was a sort of Jim Jones GPP model which I loved and it got me reasonably fit. I did my first high rocks and a little bit of running as I said I'd run a couple of marathon something quick so I could decent run off of my size. I did my first one and did an hour three and I was like okay look at it and I loved it and then I was like well I'm going to do more of what I did so like more GPP harder GPPs just ran an anerox and then second race ran an hour nine like well more of that didn't get me better. So that's when I sort of really dug into I guess the science of it look a lot more at, well yeah I say a lot of time like success leaves clues so what are other endurance sports doing and that was around the time I got into Joel Jamison's work and started speaking to him and just how like you said it's an aerobic race. I mean anything was the world record 53 minutes and change like you're producing energy aerobically so it was understanding that and then just tweaking certain things and like I said a paper like I think probably getting more things right with with my programming than wrong but I'm always keen to learn and and probably the strength endurance side has become even more prevalent like how much how much is enough how do you structure that? you weak and that's a stuff that feels super fascinating and sort of tweaking with a few different athletes doing a little bit, you know, maybe three sessions a week and some are doing too. I guess that's a side that excites me, but yeah, certainly it was just to understand just hang bigger base you need to be to perform well at the sport. Well, I think people underestimate how long it takes for these changes to happen. So like, endurance and aerobic stuff takes time to adapt to and we talk about a little while ago that people that are coming across from other sports looking like they're making really good gains really quickly, but they're coming from sports that I've got big aerobic bases built from that. Then they're just getting specific with how they're training for high rocks, learning how to race the race and it's not a massive breakthrough. It was always going to come because of their genetic ability and their previous training history. So when it looks like somebody's come into the sport and is magically performing really well, they've got history in another endurance and sport or something similar that they've brought across. It's not like they've came in and done six months of of work and now all of a sudden they're a high rock base. They've built something before they got there or they would they pick their parents really, really well and they'll be able to max his 19, which is, you know, doesn't matter what they do, they would probably be the best in the world anyway. Yeah, great. Okay, yeah, it's been a side, side question. Do you think there's any sport or sports in particular that particularly set you up well for high rocks? I sort of have my opinion based on anecdote, but I'd be interested to hear what you think. I think there's some good crossover from Triathlon because it's got to compromise on the bigger aerobic base from the non-registerant stuff, probably like how fire and man Iron Man touch stuff would probably be even better. I think rowing seems to have a really good crossover like the leg endurance and even some of the core and stuff and they've got metal engines and for a pro race being being over six foot and probably 80 not EQ lines. It's not ideal for running, but when you're doing all of the rest of the stations it's pretty it's pretty hand-drawn so it's pretty decent crossover. I think there's some items we haven't seen yet, but Nordic skiing could be a good crossover into high rocks I think, with the demands there as? Yeah, I think it's a strength endurance piece that you know, always sort of laugh when you see comments online that just say if you know, if a professional triathlete really wanted to come across and break 50 it's like, well, I don't think people that have never done a race understand the strength endurance piece and just how much that crushes you, you know, there was a guy in Australia that was a very high level triathlete that we've shared this place, but it's worth mentioning. It's like obviously incredible must-e endurance, yeah, I'm not sure exactly what his threshold pace was, but got through the ski all right, got through the push okay and then like nine minutes on the pool so I think there's something if you've played a certainly like a strength running, like whether that's a turn, like a strength running sport life, soccer, rugby, I think I think Alan Plow is a soccer player, maybe even some high level tennis, like something where you have a good basin and have that sort of go somewhat explosive running, I think Joe Alan was a tennis player Alan Cowles a tennis player, he was obviously a rugby player, so I think having some sort of strength training in your sporting background certainly helps, but obviously triathlete, you've got that massive engine and there's plenty of guys, you know, nipping at the Elite 15, we're very high level triathletes, yeah, I'd say certainly helps to be on a slightly heavier side, I think you're going to struggle to ever really do well in the sport if you're in the 60s of course I could be wrong, but I think having a lot of more mass helps to move mass and like you're saying big tall helps too. Yeah, I think you can get away with it in the open, but in the pro it just eats you up, that being that lighter weight, like you can have a massive engine, when you're trying to push, if you weigh 65 kilos and trying to push 200 kilos led, maybe not even this led push, push the pool, trying to pull the ball, you're just really going to struggle, and then if you were 65 kilos the lunges are nearly the body weight, so it's also going to take a big chunk out of you, but I think there's, I think you've just got a great, that big strength endurance and a real big engine and explosiveness coming over your head of everybody else straight away. Yeah, and again because the stations require no real technical skill, it doesn't, it doesn't take a long time to get pretty proficient again, you know, will you see someone come across, yeah, within a year and, and be the best probably not, but I don't, you know, I think, I think, if you've got a really good background, I think within 18 months or two years, I'm sure we can talk about this, how quickly people are trying to get good, but I do feel that if people can play the long game a little bit, I think you can get pretty bloody good in, like two to three years, there's no time at all, but again, I'm sure we'll talk about this as we continue with the podcast, but just have quickly people are trying to get elite 15 in the sport and how it ultimately derails them because it always almost always leads to injury. Yeah, I think, like I mean, people are just trying to rush these aerobic games by squashing as much into a short period of time as they can. I don't, obviously, pyrox is mega relevant at the minute and it's everywhere and you know, everyone wants to be in the elite 15, but I think I've been telling people for a while now, if you're new to this, you want to be looking 18 months to that years down the road, and if you, your goal is to be good in the long run, if your aspirations are just performance at a personal level, stop thinking so narrowly and that you want to be somewhere in three months, because it takes far longer than that to get better at anything. You need to be patient and consistent, so I think most of my philosophy as a coach is my job is to apply enough stimulus to moving the right to get the needle moving without messing them up. So if I think keep doing that week on weeks so that they can layer on more and more and more work, that's our job. If we just come up with a hodgepodge of stuff and ram it out, they'll get really good quick games and it might last eight, 12 weeks and then they start to feel burnt out. We push it even further and we keep going, they're going to be injured or burnt out and they're not going to get that long-term sustainability. So it's why and the way you do yours as well, similar trains of four different ways of applying it. Like you've got to apply your stimulus, recover from your stimulus, apply another stimulus and just keep increasing that without overstepping. So you need to push the envelope a little bit so that you make adaptations without absolutely blowing yourself up and find every now and then you need to go to the well and test yourself a little bit. But you shouldn't be doing that week and week out, you should be always one gear under that death march because it's sustainable. And people, I don't know, this sport and the way it's come, I don't know if it's because a lot of CrossFit came into it and their idea of a good workout is six minutes long and lying on the floor in an anorat or a row bit like pool of death for another 16th. But they think that high rock needs to be really, really hard. It works not like you said earlier, it's even a well-wracked, or 53 minutes. So it needs to be controlled and if you can't control it, you can't put out your best performance. Yeah, look, I grow what you said is spot on and I've said it to a few people, a few athletes in the last two weeks. I said, one of two things like my job is a coach is to moderate your training stress. It's my only job. And the training stress has to be the last stress you add to your life. You can't be the first because like, yeah, you can't compartmentalise training stress versus life stress. And it's my job to be across that. As you know, I sort of use HIV and recovery systems and I'm always, you know, definitely with clients and they'll, you know, how is your recovery, how is your nervous system. And then applying what I think, well, prescribing what I think is the appropriate amount of stress yet. It's not just going. He is 15 hours a week, fucking do it. And if you don't, it's on you. So again, a great, as a coach, it's our job to just, yeah, as I said, apply enough stress that they can do a workout that they give enough stimulus that they can adapt from. And then obviously encourage them to allow that adaptation to take place. It's just a job really is to guide people in the right direction and stop them making catastrophic mistakes, which people seem to want to do over and over again. I think that's one of the reasons I want to do this with you is because I feel that we can put out some that, you know, are perspective on educating on what endurance should or performance should look like. So I want to let people, as my job as a coach is to make myself almost redundant and Steve Magnus says as well. If you've got them sucking at your tip all the time, asking you questions that they know the answers to already, you're not really doing your job. You need to make them, you know, give themselves autonomy so that they can make decisions. But you only do that by educating them and talking walking together and telling them and sending them necessarily given them the confidence in their own ability to to to make the decision himself. You can I would happily answer 10 questions a day if they're well from like every single person I coach if they're well thought out and not just lazy questions like. Why am I doing this what what what is the benefit from doing this and where is it taking me if you're thinking about that for every session so if it's a recovery session and and you've got to walk up a hill because your heart rate's going to high and it's fairly of the greens like I just this morning and and one of the girls necessarily said. You know we're on a recovery day I walked up the hill because it's 56 degrees and and then I'd stayed in his own two for the rest of it like I almost cried like that this you know I were winning straight away she's she's made the correct decision to know that tomorrow is the is the quality day so she would come up today and still still gets adaptations from that but tomorrow is when the adaptations. When the quality works done so if she's not fresh enough for that she's just digging herself a deeper hole and then the next session goes down and and it carries on like that so if I get somebody say to me for the session are not of cut 20 minutes off that session I was feeling fried I didn't think that that to me is a win and people think eyes at least going to pissed off because I'm done the full session I'm supporting that 100% it's like we talk about the four that. The plan is a roadmap and there you know there's a journey on that there's a starting point and a destination but there's a million different roads to where you go in so don't be when you see the plan don't be fixated on that it isn't it's not real it's just something we've written on paper that we're we want to be done adapting along the way to how you are reacting. Yeah I like that and I think that yeah the program is that is the map I think the coach is the GPS we just stop people going off track but the destination is a long way away there's a thousand different routes you can take I think it's a coach it's just stopping people you know taking the wrong turn too often. Yeah you can't be the person driving a vehicle I keep you know there is that level in particular with products I think there is a lot of complexity to the training and you know I think you know you and I could probably admit to West all try to figure out the best way to do things so people are very curious and there is I think I think a big part of it is is driven by social media that yeah it's it's pretty prolific people just posting workouts and I think it is changing a little bit now that's certainly 18 months ago everyone's just like I can fresh out. Fresh old hard work out obviously just gives you the impression everyone's training hard all the time I do I do see it changing a bit but there is just still that. Oh fuck they're probably doing more than me they're probably working harder and but I yeah see if we can if we can be a small change for good I think that's a good thing. Yeah I've gone away from like if we looked at it is a like then how long is it different we'll talk about it in a bit as well as the new point system but how a normal season looks for normal person you don't want to be peaking all the time like and if you're doing VO2 match stuff and really high end sessions all the time you're you're going to plateau really soon what you want to do is build up as much volume in a season. Yeah, I think that's a good thing in a safe way as you can with the the nice spicy stuff sprinkled in there but that is the ice and on the cake the you know the meat of it not that anyone wants a meat cake like is. Yeah, I think you're you're a real big stuff so I've started doing something I've started doing really in the last four to five months is long easy higher up style sessions and you know up to like an hour and 45 of just run station run station pick two or three stations for sometimes if you feel in really adventurous and just rotate through them like a job like keeping it in zone to maybe into zone three if you want to call it that on the stations. That way you can get some real quality station work that I think accumulate fatigue and then you know you split down the rest I think you do this pretty similar you know you do you concentrate on the threshold running and then your strength and your strength and your strength and joint stuff after so that you can get in the quality of both not match altogether and hope that you can do three high rock style four high rock style workouts a week. And feel like you've been really productive but really you you've just been yourself out you're not really getting much quality working on the stations and then and your runs start to fall off as well so you're not really boosting the two ends you just merged in the middle of making it muddle. Yeah, I'm just definitely a probably at least two or three full podcast ever so it's sort of a training philosophy but yeah I'm keen to talk about the long high rocks because I think it's something I'm sort of interested in you're raising my high but I say we kick on with what we've had on the agenda otherwise will probably be speaking for three hours to each other zero. Right, cool so let's have a look here at St. Gallen and I think that's over now it's in the race in Switzerland that last weekend so I followed the men's race and it was well the men's pro was on first and you're junior and bow went up against Luke Anderson and Connie Higgins I think and be the British lads came up I don't know if Connor's got his but Luke's got his I think came out on top which I actually was quite surprised with but then it looks like and from the people that I spoke with that were there the sled tar fishies with the head again so and one of the the girls I coach said it was the hardest sled push he's done in a life and it was part in human in there apparently which I think the humidity plays a massive part on how hard that sled polish as well because I think that new thicker carpet wants to start getting wet and boggier and you start pulling it slows it down and that knock on effect for the rest of the race is grim and I think that's what I'm going to do. I think that showed its head in the men's pro solo race as well but bow won it in what for him was you know a sub five. 68 or 58. And there was a big gap to where the next guy was sub 60 just I think he managed to slip through pro unbroken war balls to get me sub 60 and it dropped right off so you know compared to what I expect to see this weekend Manchester Amsterdam that the deck wasn't really there. But the overall finishing time wasn't great as well which you know and the women's race was a little bit more meaty there was a bit more depth and I think but it wasn't that style so I guess in the sleds again took a big impact on not heating humidity so I don't know what you think about. The humidity is by the way the biggest contributing factor to slow slides on don't know the exact sides behind I have listened to a couple of podcasts obviously there's a. It just slows down you know it just affects the pile they went obviously with the turf it has has a pile versus carpet. I guess the humidity just affects the fourth car efficient so the forcing capsule piloting perhaps not to get it moving but to keep it moving is just so much greater. It just it's what it is I was we'll talk about the points system and I was that and that like was talking about they are going to try to standardize the temperature in the elite races down to about 18 and a half. I mean everyone knows when it's when it's cool and dry the sleds move pretty well when it's hot and sticky they get hot and sticky so it's just is what it is it's not. Not by that as well. Yeah again the the force you have to produce is just so much greater like I said to get it moving into keep it moving is required so much more output. Yeah don't you sort of you sort of always see people so I'll train for heavy slides I don't think I don't think you can really train for them that effectively yeah I don't think it serves you especially well to have a really heavy slow slow. You want to you want to be training at a pretty similar race cadence practicing your breaks when you're going to take them works for you to. You do the first length I'm broken then every subsequent length breaking into thirds and then if you just get a slid that is just so much other than the new train was. It's probably why now that the points system is a bit fair because yeah it's just going to be the case that not all convention centers are created equal and now that becomes OK. Let's just get into it and so Matt released the point system officially yesterday we had heard about it a little while ago and it's a little bit different from what we were expecting which I think is a good thing so my understanding now is what he. Five races as a solo you know it's point weighted off that event so the winner gets 105 and then percent I'll drop down if that is and what you'll score down to you know 12 and a half percent off the winning time down to eight place and I think it was and then if you're not in that window you don't score any points it's great because like you saw last year with. The some of the in the race there's people went yeah within it in like 57 minutes and then next time being 105 you know if they hadn't put in the weighted point the percent I think someone running the 65 66 could have scored 104 points whatever it is and so. To me this is one of the best changes I've made in a long time and for we it got boring the. it's like it makes it's like you're everyone loves a nice shining PB and minds 56 minutes from Berlin and it will be but it's been in and out of still take it for a pinch of salt and been here that sense like I've two minutes behind it since that in a pretty recent race but like so I it's for pinch of salt so you've got to pick your venue and see what you get you race with who's there and that's what it should be now so I think the head-to-head race in and the getting the points off that is gold and that your other sports do it that way the diamond leak does it that way slightly different and I think Iron Man Triathlete are got a similar type of scoring system now so yeah it had to go that way because you can rely on courses and then people slide in in with some iffy times like fair play to and they run and race the race and that's what you got but in fairness and in you know the going forward with the professionals and with the sport it needs to happen that this was the way it was going to happen I think the way they put together is pretty impressive because I have been you know critical of some of the decisions they've made in the past but I think this is one of the best ones they've made to really make the sport more professional move it forward on a level playing field at that elite level yeah so just just a couple of add-ons I the the majors and the world championships are weighted just a little higher I think you use it do you say it's what oh yeah I'd have to go back but I think I think the majors is maybe 108 for a win and then world chances 110 which sounds like a small increment but I assume that obviously run a lot of modeling so and yeah as you said if if second place isn't within 10 percent they accumulate no points not looked it they probably didn't need that to happen anyway again I can't see someone consistently running second places 12 minutes behind and look if if someone slips through the gaps they're going to get found out as soon as they race head to head but I don't mind it in theory was it necessary I mean they said yeah the same applies for a major rate it's like well second place is never going to be more than 10 percent behind and then a certain second place is there I think it it all adds up but look definitely a a big step in the right direction I think some of the early feedback has been will this mean people are racing too much I think Anthony Peresany put out some comparisons of where people would sit yeah had points been accumulating and we'll just into Matlock this morning sort of saying that it's pretty much other than obviously that the notable exceptions like Hunter who plans his season around auto qualifying and the names it sort of wouldn't have been higher like Hunter and Wrongkimich but at the end of the day they were they were racing the qualifying system that was in place I have no doubt that if they still want to be competitive in the sport they're not going to struggle to qualify they just need to race a little bit more yeah I think it makes it it's probably more difficult for some of the newer areas to have entered because there aren't enough races and I suppose it's probably a little bit more difficult for you guys down there as well it means you don't have that many races compared to Europe like even this weekend with two races you know and we're just starting again after the new year one last weekend we're racing loads like American a little bit more than you I think maybe a couple more races not that many so yeah people are going to be traveling after the travel of Europe a lot more you're probably after doing they go kind of an athletic thing where you travel to Europe in fact a lot of your guys from down there in the athletics well the runner will come up to London and then base themselves out here banging a you know a month six weeks worth of races and just have like a big race block to try and get that race experience and the points on the board and it's going to it's going to change how you program as those elite athletes to try and qualify or then you know for their Europeans they can space them out we do you know it depends on how early you want to qualify I think that it's going to take probably eight months for this to become a little bit more integrated because you've got 365 day window I know the shadow points of starting now people knew since September people didn't know they had to have a license to start accumulating those points which I think a little bit iffy I think maybe they should have they should allow you to retrospectively claim points now so if you get the license you should be able to claim back to September because they've made a change yeah and but they've kind of put people on the back foot here if they weren't with a license because they were expecting to get in with the current system so that could have probably been done a little bit better but other than that I think they're in and then we can talk about the doubles I suppose which is a little bit other I think it's a little bit sour with the only three races same point system but now we would have to race with somebody from your own country which I think is a shame on some aspects I don't what you think about that just a one point of the apk where you are you are probably right but but there is just less depth in this after the world at the moment because I think in large but we would probably a year later than starting and we just don't have the frequency of races however like you know I've got a coach well I'm a tangy-tangy pro-use who's very competitive racer and looking at his races I think he'd be about 28 he's only got a PB of sort of 57 but when he races he tends to be top three so that there is that that upside that people absolutely have to travel we only have we only have four races in Australia it's not especially difficult for him to to nick over to some of the Asian countries or to Auckland people were avoiding some courses again the old system was such that the him it was like well why am I going to go to Shanghai and probably you know I'm never going to qualify flying Shanghai now it means something so again it means he probably has to race six or seven times so he's got the four Aussie races and then two or three Asian ones I think you probably saw I think Gabe Kack is incredibly high up in the in the new point system because he's won every race he's been in Asia so but for the fact that we don't have as many races at the moment the depth isn't there that I can see some of the A-Pak guys you know and placing him it better and obviously with the European race has been so incredibly competitive you know you can see some very good guys not having their best race and finishing fifth or sixth and for the the stronger A-Pak guys I think top three becomes a little bit easier just until the depth feels out but we'll see how it plays out because yeah yeah and I also be the case it yeah as people who come off professionally to start coming down to the Asian races like you said yeah and you can also see people doing that yeah this is probably a good conversation how do you sort of if you're coaching an athlete how do you periodise do you have a big block go to Europe for six weeks of race six times and come back and try to place really well or do you just try to be pretty fit year round and and hope you get you know cut with seconds and thirds I think it'll be interesting to see how people approach their season obviously the people that can do it full time have a bit more flexibility yeah look to to the point you asked about about doubles I think that's a bit it's a bit of a mess to start with I don't think it's I think they put the cart before the horse I understand why they're doing they've got Olympic aspirations and but like we spoke about in a chat I just don't think it serves a purpose to have the best races racing yeah and I can't think of too many examples but say someone like Alan Ploy is a very good race so I don't think there's he's still a vachian was he check yeah one of those vachian yeah so vachian is there a it perhaps I should know the depth of the sovachian hierarchy you sort of feel for a guy like that that he should be able to pair up with another very fast racer and do well and he he may be a bit limited that yeah that's probably not going to be the case for too long but you know cold might be the same in Canada you know he says someone that been taking it he's potentially going to be one of the best does he now have to sort of just find someone again people will catch up but I I think it was perhaps a bit premature in it's in in yeah it's sort of being implemented yeah I think the world champs probably or not the former world champ wrong it's probably going to be in the worst position to get partner because he's Austrian and there I can't believe anyone in that it's in that position in Austria that could potentially race within and keep up was being even a couple of laps so he's kind of unless you can get a different there's be a bit I don't know what they're you know everything also really get a German passport whatever but it's going to take time to do that anyway I don't think he still lives in Vienna anyway so it's going to be hard for him to get a partner so he's got that you know you've cut your one of your best players up the roster or you can see yeah short sighted I think like obviously he can go race races but he's not going to pick up points to go to the world champs and they're not going to add any money like from yeah you know a normal pro race anywhere so what's the incentive for him he goes all in on the solar and that's it kind of cuts him short yeah I just thought that that I mean the the prize money is important for these guys it's not a so obviously yeah I'm sure that the guys at the top are making some solid money through through sponsorships but wrong could have to be you know him and Tim and this you will have to be very close to favorites and I'm not sure what the prize money is but if all of a sudden you know you limit some of the ability to earn the prize money that is the best one of the race and the way I think that is a little bit unfair. It's a bit unfair so we'll go find an Austrian that you can run fast with. And then obviously at the moment it probably favours the UK, Germany. But then you still do run into the issues, you've got to have what is it, three races with the same person. And I think just thinking that out loud, I think that also is a little bit, it favours Europe too heavily because a big issue that we've had in Australia is that we don't have these. We have multi-day events but we don't have the pro races are almost always the same day so it goes like pro singles, pro doubles, which is perhaps why you haven't seen that much of the depth in the Australian doubles scene because the solo guys are racing that you can't expect them to run to but race is back to back and that has been an issue with probably getting some of the better guys being out with a run together. I certainly speak to most of them and they end up just running in open doubles the next day because they kind of want to run together. You've got a, your hierarchy has to give athletes at least the opportunity to race on different days. You can't do one racing weekend and have a pro solo and a pro doubles and then go well, you've got to get both your time so look I'm sure they'll iron out. They do, they are open to feedback and I think it will be something that won't be received particularly well but I guess we'll watch your space. Yeah I think that's actually a good way to segue into looking at this weekend coming because they're both the races up here of five days long and a lot of those Elite 15 or Elite 15 aspirations guys are racing twice like so and so we can look at who's so we've got Amsterdam up here and Manchester on and the lineups for Manchester are pretty insane in the in the men's race and I think you've got Auckland on down there as well right so and like just look at it. Oh is it also okay. So I'm saying I see the look on it. I hear the majors next week so the Amsterdam race is it's pretty stacked as well. There are a couple of people that are in the Amsterdam and the Manchester start list so we'll wait and see where they turn up but like looking at Amsterdam and Heidi's on the list for the pro pro pro solo then Heidi's on their brain holiday Martin Heinhoeven, Lucas Storath, Liam McRory, Yao Haumeider, Richard Heineck, Alan Plow, Finn Humpries and then a bit of an old school name told Tobias and I'll outline on there as well like so you know in fact there's TAC, the Eman TAC there as well on there and so all of them have gone well below sub 60 so this I like the fact that it's spread out over the week so that we can have these different races like said but also the all these the 15 16 names there that spread out over three days sort of it kind of loses some of that race and aspect as well so if you go in for points all the pro races should be on the same day and the same way like because you're going to do a head-to-head race because that's like it's the same venue but a Wednesday race to a Saturday race are different things like they're not so I think they need to either put all of the pro races on a Saturday afternoon or whatever or the women on the Saturday morning or the men on the Saturday afternoon then on the Sunday do the pro doubles in the same vein and then you know well these are the most subscribed. What they could do because obviously the guys going for points now have to have an elite license it should just be that yeah there's an asterisk Saturday is the elite license race you can you can have you can have three pro races that you're right the one that counts of points has to be head-to-head because you know you are you're right it's it is yes it's the same race it's a different race when you're racing against different people different you potentially have different judging again if the venue is hotter it that matter even if the venue is like three or four degrees hotter if theoretically later in the weekend there's going to be more sweat on a sled track than than early like it has to be yeah if they're going for points because there is also this caveat with the the point system that there is a depth of field element that if if two athletes are finished on the same points there's a depth of field so then how do you assess depth of field on two different days again you've just got a particularly yeah it's not going to be the case I'd say in Australia for a little while but yeah I mean the European races are going to be stacked it awesome I mean it's so good so good for racing and but yeah they've got to just make sure that if you've got to let license this is the day you're racing you don't get to you don't get to pick and choose and then and then have a pro doubles two days later be be I think be fair to the athletes pro elite pro singles is Friday elite pro doubles is Sunday give them a day off again you're trying to professionalise the sport and I think that would be a pretty simple change to make yeah I think you just send like the Manchester event the men's race is over it's Wednesday first day and Sunday and I would even a quick glance over there's probably 30 plus men that can go sub 60 so that is you know and these all of these races in Europe are like this now so the depth is insane like a year ago we were probably seeing one to two five on a cracking race that was sub 60 and now it's like it's you know it it's off the chart from what it was like a lot of these are just a race in Wednesday as a primer and then flying to Phoenix or there's a good feeling I think but Charlie Potter was on the Wednesday, Sedeek Alpertori, Harry Thompson, Luke Grier, Paul Wendell, Mark Dean, Bolly Thicker, John Carlisle all on in Manchester and then they're all on Wednesday. So there's Wednesday first day and Sunday so bottles on the Wednesday I saw that can I think the Luke Grier is saying something. Yeah I think great and holiday I think is racing in Amsterdam Manchester or he's on both starts and then flying to Phoenix on Sunday. What's he racing in Phoenix? Double or something? I'm not sure I just saw a story so hopefully I read that one. I don't know where he was in the because there wasn't much of a rolldown in the Venice. No, I think I only went seven. Seven tenth I think Bo was eighteenth and he was first first rolldown. In saying. Interesting. I didn't know what I wanted. Who would be a pick for those two races? I'm looking at work. Unfortunately Grier and Potter were racing on different days but I'd like to see them going again. They raced against each other and Birmingham last up on October of the week and Grier went out hard and then bottle beat him to the end of the day and was in that race as well. I heard that Grier and Wendell were racing together in a pro double so that would be that's going to be a sub 50 even at Manchester. It's probably isn't the fastest course because it's nearly three laps. It's quite tight but those two can run. It's hard to look past Charlie Potter all there. If he's still in that form and looking at his training weeks and we've seen it a lot, you've seen it as well. Some big work going in so he's just getting better and better. Yeah, exciting times. So when does that remind me when the first Manchester race is? Today. Today. Yeah, and to ask them tonight as well. Yeah. So when you wake up in the morning, you that know because when you wake up, they'll probably just be on the course. Crazy. I find it. I find it stunning that people can race so often. I mean, you can sort of, you can understand Charlie Charlie. He's just on still accumulating points which he can get for someone like Lucas running his first first lead 15 major racing and then flying. Obviously, these guys are incredibly fit and durable but there's no way. There's no way it can't affect you. I mean, it has to have some impacts and why not put everything into the your first or late 15 race again. I've talked about. If you've got longevity and a long career in your mind, you probably want to try to optimize the races. You really try to win. But anyway, that's such a thing. That'd probably be I'd be in the race already. I think if I could afford it, I'd be just starting a bit. Trying to get adapted to that new time zone which I don't know what Phoenix is Phoenix is Arizona on it. So it's like it's a good few hours behind the UK. It's going to have an impact and don't really want to be flying up three or four days before. So I don't know if he's racing on Sundays or. Yes, I don't know. Why should he space basically? He's going to prove that's going for him. Yeah. Do really well. I'm sure. But I think he's one of the most exciting people in the sport. Obviously, obviously. is pretty remarkable and he's just getting better and better so. I'm really keen to see how he goes in his first race obviously he's going to probably say he's going to be first of the scheme which I don't doubt. We'll see if he can buck the trend of being first of the scheme and not finishing last so. Yeah, as I go on too well with some people recently. I think we could be here or they preview in the those races because there's so many. I feel like we're just going to skip over the winning I don't want to let this drag out for two hours so we have two other things we want to do so. If we just if we want to move on so some of them are going to include just as more of a social media batch in rather like a weekly or whatever we do monthly. When when to the week I'm going to call it and just something that's pissed me off on social media this week or you know we'll alternate between me and you and with people what people are doing that doesn't really make any sense that or doing it for all the wrong reasons and I think this week is people over complicating things to try and sound like they have a better understanding of the situation so I think I think Einstein said if you you can't explain it to or this is probably power of reason somebody else we can't explain it to a five year old you don't understand it so why put out things that are really really really really complicated to the your audience that probably don't understand it just give it to them in terms they are going to understand the same with coaching like we could sit here and talk about you know metabolic pathways and how all the physiology of the human body but nobody really needs to know that they need to know that yes apply their stimulus you'll get better at that so like you know doing telling people what these really complex things to give this facade as if you're really intelligent like if you're really intelligent and explain to people what they're doing in a time that they understand not in big fancy words that what's going to give me a headache and they just think yeah mine's probably not too disillusioned I've sort of go more broad as sort of and people that don't major in the major have had probably four or five messages this week and I'm more like this this is not to discourage people from messaging I do like I said I like answering questions but people that come to you with these really nuanced training things like should I be doing fly net tricks and and you know these sort of like heel sprint repeats and I was like look you can put them in a program if you want but you got a major in the major like they might be the the last thing you put in a really complex training week and I absolutely and then we can talk about the effectiveness of fly net tricks but I was like just do the basics like do the basics well for the next six years and you'll be really good at this sport right so try to find these little nuanced ways of training and then and then also try to justify well you know NFL players do them and they're really fast like yeah the fairly different sport but yeah I said if you want to put something in your program that you enjoy doing by all means but just get the basics right first yeah and there's so many basic options you could already go for in this to make big things so they were sort about the aerobic base if you're not working that the majority of your time anyway you waste and stuff like this is like people that are saying or well can I add this stuff in and they're running 20k a week like you probably just want to do a bit more running first and and and build up that ability before you start doing that but like there are there are studies that look at putting fly metric things in to running programs and increasing speeds right and there's there's trained studies and run train studies the untrained that they get better results but a lot of the studies don't actually look that what if you just added more running so they stay at the running and then running plus fly metrics what about if you did running plus fly metrics or just more running which one's going to give you more bang for buck in the real world and which one's going to need less chance and get injured if you do it properly yeah fly metrics heavy on the body like and it's CNS heavy as well so you've got to do it properly and really there's no apart from burpee broad jumps which I'm applying actually there is a ballistic it it's not applying it yeah and it's that ability to do a long broad jump is highly genetic anyway depending on tender than ligament and muscle ability to produce contract our force to jump so like it'd be alright if you had Greg Rutherford doing your burpee broad jumps because the bloats jumped over eight meters so he could probably jump four meters you know and a burpee broad jump whereas I was born with two inch long Achilles and zero explosiveness so jumping one and a half meters is close to mine anyway everyone's slightly different so yeah there's only so much you can eat out like this there's only so much of a percentage of improvement you'll get over what you get from aerobic gains which are almost unlimited if you've got the time when the patience to do it yeah and I was I would say the transference to race performance would be close to Neil like he said yes that there is a jump component of the burpee broad jump but you 25 minutes into a race and you're doing 40 of them it's not it's not truly explosive in an anaerobic strategy yes it's a jump but yeah not all jumps are created equal and yeah the first few jumps might be a little bit more explosive but naturally you get limited by your force production so yes well I'm sure we'll come back to all the time just just build a bigger engine just do more easy volume yeah yeah people probably get bored on each hand all the time just to layer it and do this like you said do keep it simple stupid which wraps both of those things up do the basics well and lots like you can't really go wrong from there like balance the balance your life stress with your your training stress and make sure that you're just staying within a healthy range and just doing the right stuff which you know goes back to your philosophy and we can then just listen to the data you get and file on from there rather than just pick and round them stuff out and do and round them and or whatever that don't really move the need in any way and if you're doing it for general health you know go for it but if you want to get better at a specific sport chain for that specific sport you know yes you know it's like I said it on the podcast and musicians don't work chefs don't learn to play the piano to cook a decent roast dinner it doesn't make a sense there's crossover but yeah it's not the right right way to attack it it's not the best bang for butt which is what we want because everybody's busy and everybody's got a training budget they need to fit their stuff into so you know do it smartly great I'll ask you one of the random questions that someone sent me I think it was a user on Charlie but rules post so I'll phrase it a bit differently so if the war balls was the first station and then the ski was the last station one with the race beat quicker and two by how much do you think if you're good at war balls and you can already go unbroken on war balls you know you're gonna smash with those war balls pretty easy your next one's gonna be slower because there's just blood shunting everywhere and trying to run out the war balls is disgusting you would have to pace that a little bit better but I reckon you only lose 20 to 30 seconds there like especially if you're not very good at war balls or if it depends on your war ball ability but I think yeah I think it's almost everyone would break the war balls up you would because they do like fast set of 35 rest fast set of 35 rest fast set of 30 and then you'd be off and then I think it would be carnage at the end because like a 1k ski max effort would take some souls but the person that finishes you could probably you get I think you get a few guys going close to you know probably pulling a 130 because you've got you you can disregard pace on the skis I think you'd see but like yeah you probably see in maybe a minute quicker have you ever tried the ski fat still when you're well into the fresh old and fatigued they do it in hybrid games and it's disgusting like people so it's one of the worst set yeah so um it people could seriously blow up on that like it I reckon it could be so much but you're not gonna but like you do on a war balls I think like you can really you're gonna finish out you know you're not gonna have to take yeah multiple 10 15 seconds you're not gonna say five minutes ski times and the person that does it down to 10 pulse like which yeah probably not even gonna like people people like people with ski it likes hunter and wrong can 10 of skiing 140 pace at the beginning and that's kind of measured for them so you know that even if they blow up they're gonna ski 150 pace and not lose that yeah it's probably the Tim would probably do better if it was this way down you would even further ahead of everyone else I think and the guy is that it's uh it's also a real difficult one to ask but no one from the skis would be too really horrible like I did some of that I tested on the skin on a ski and I couldn't believe how high my lactate was even at my heart rate below 100 beats a minute So one people. tried to use hybrid lactate or hybrid sessions and test their lactate and they don't really know if there's any point in it, which is this completes some of them, maybe talk about a different episode before we're trying to get into it too long, but it's a sport, it's an exercise that can produce some serious lactate and it will totally throw off any kind of what you would think would be normal numbers. Are you at race pace? I was at 11 millimole. Yes, huge. Yeah, I've said to people, I think it'd be more, for a lot of people, I think it'd be more interesting, more effective to test their lactate on the ski. I think you can sort of figure it out pretty well, you know, using heart rate as a proxy for your running. Yeah, what you just articulate, I think people have zero clue just how high lactate gets even from what they consider pretty easy skiing, which again, it's obviously indicative of why people so often blow up after the ski, they've just produced so much lactate, then that's just, you know, shot into the system that then tries to clear it so heart rate, so I think a lot of people would get more benefit from having their lactate tested on the ski and then training appropriately than perhaps on the run. Yeah, I think she's still, there's so much running that you're going to have to learn to feel it out anyway. It's not, it, your my heart rate for a compromised running versus normal lactate or normal pressure, then they're completely different like the pace and the way it feels on the same thing. So you need to kind of feel your way through that anyway. And I would say that your profile changes throughout the whole race. So even if you're working at the same kind of pace and effort, your lactate profile would change just because of the dipping in and out of those stations. I know there's some people I've done some testing on it, but I wouldn't think that during the race it makes any bit of difference. It's interesting to know, but like for training, like skiing and row are probably good places to test your lactate to make sure you're staying below that and give yourself a good idea of what pace you can go without blowing. I usually say it's about set, you should probably go seven to ten seconds lower than your your 2k pace on the ski and it, yeah, that keeps you about right. They get, you know, depending on what skiing do, but I think you're going to say I don't include that much skiing in my program because I think they're better. Not a future map. It needs to be doing. So it's, you know, you touch it to make sure that you remember I'll do it and just maintain what you've got because I did it for about six months. I put in a lot of skiing like 40 plus K a week and you know what, the crossover to racing was minimal. So found better things to do in my time because that's, you know, it was probably, I was doing maybe four hours of skiing a week and just a test to see what it would work. I think it's worth it. Like a less year, if you're only a week athlete and you've got 30 hours a week to train, different story. If you're a, got 12 hours, 12, you know, seven to 12 hours a week to make to get out. One more question. What are your thoughts on core training? All right. So I have been asked this before and I've talked about this before and I don't pay. So there's core training in and then there's specific core training. Like everything we do in high rocks, it has some kind of contraction or ice and ice metric contraction of the core because else you just fall over and you won't be able to do anything. And then there's this specific stuff that you see that, you know, the clanks, glute bridges. So if we, if we fall the core, you know, that tube around you, the middle of your body, all right. And it's so glute, just make it glute, glutes and have to make it simple. Like that tube around there is, you know, to try and choose the clanks, even like fessups. And glute bridges, any of that side stuff, any sideline type stuff. We don't need to add it in. Like if you want to put it in as a bit of a warm up, put it in, but specifically to train to it, there's just no need because of the other stuff we do. So even if you have a couple of compound lifts, like there's been some studies done on dead lifts and they, the deadlift at a high, high percentage of the one rep max got over 200% maximum voluntary ice and metric contraction of the of the abs and the glutes. So if you used to their now squeezed effort, as you could intense it, you'd get to 100% of that maximum contraction. And it, but if you put a load on and start moving below, you can go above 100%. So you a plant gets you maybe 70 to 80% of that maximum contraction. So if we're looking at that kind of core brace in, push a sled, pull a sled, do warballs, like, you know, farmers carry stops any of the, a little bit of rotation and then that lateral flexion down to each side. So you're working everything if you're doing the movements. If your program is fully rounded, you know, and you've got some strength and strength endurance in, then you're hitting all of the high lot's movements. You are training core every time you go into a gym. And like, I can see why people think it's hard to see that when you look at it and you look at the conventional ways of people training core, but we can do rocky palboa at our circuits. And there's not going to get us anywhere. Like if you're always to get hypertrophy of the of that rep, there's a done that you know, you're six pack, then, you know, you're going to need, you can do some crunches and some, well, probably more eccentric type stuff, cobras and stuff and you can get up, but then add diet because the done, you know, stripping for facts going to be the main thing. But general core strength and then I don't think accessorising it in the training that we're doing for this is necessary with all of the other things we're doing. So, you know, even a ski argue after in break, you know, engage your core, else you're not going to get that hip hinge and the whip to get it. So every single movement in high rocks is core training. Even backwards because you know, press up some going to you after engage your core. So, I don't add it as an accessory or feel that it's something we don't need that one top of all of the training we've already got. Yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't agree more. I think, you know, you see some people just put in resets of 12 and roll out and some plank at the end like it's doing nothing. There's no stimulus there. It's just throwing it as a little bit of fluff at the end. You get like you said, if you're a professional bodybuilder and you need to learn how to turn on your abs and you need to add it to your hypertrophy, then for aesthetic purposes, fine. As you said, like you can't not be engaging your core when you're pushing or pulling a sled, you know, walking like any movement. Like you said, you hit the core more as efficiently throwing throwing some crunches or some overall outs. In some ways of time. And yeah, that was earlier, bang for buck is what you want. You've got nine modal elements we need to train to be good at, you know, jack of all of them, to be putting in extra things that don't add any extra value. It's not what you want. You need to trim the fat and get specific with what you're doing. So, I think we've done that. That's very good. Well, I think that wraps up our first episode. Yeah, so I actually enjoyed that hour and 10 minutes early. So hopefully we can keep this going weekly and people enjoy what we're doing. So, you know, this is day one week one. I don't know about you, but anybody that's got feedback on whatever we've got here or wants to see something different or add in, we've got a little bit more of a structure that we've probably put in next week, just to, you know, as we have the introductions to see what we're doing. So we'll get that in, but absolutely open to any suggestions from anybody. Totally keeps sending questions. I think we've already got a bank in about 20, already. So, weekly we'll try now to them and, you know, we're here to try and help other people. So, this isn't the hour and and and Chris show. We'll deliver it, but we want it to be for everybody out there that's going to take the time to listen and we'll appreciate them been taking that time. Absolutely. Right, mate. I think we'll wrap up there and I'll see you next week. Awesome, mate. Chesa.