Hunting for the Next Big Wine Star featuring Our Pour Decisions

(upbeat music) Well, hello, and welcome to The Wine Access unfiltered podcast. You know, once upon a time, Harlan wasn't Harlan, and screaming, "Eagle," well, that was just a bird on a bottle that nobody had ever heard of. But today, we know these wines to be gems, and that didn't happen by accident. But those who knew how to get their hands on these wines, those who knew how to find these wines back in the day or wines like this, well, they had what we would call the advantage on the rest of us. And so today, we are talking about how these wine stars came into their own and how you guys can get into the game a little early, hunting for the next big wine star. That is what we're talking about today, and I'm super excited because I've got two guests with me today who represent two different generations, but a familial one. You guys might have seen them on their hit YouTube show, our poor decisions, where they go around the country, traveling, and peeking inside other people's wine collections and sellers, finding their hidden gems, and talking about what has been exciting and interesting to them. So please welcome to the show, Be, and Pops. Hi, guys. - Hey, thanks for having us. - Hey, Amanda, thank you. It is my pleasure, and I do want to point out, even though we've sort of just met, the viewers know you guys as Be, and Pops, because you're trying to do the impossible, which I respect, which is retain privacy, and some anonymity on the internet, which is cool. - That's right. - Yeah, I don't think Mom would let us do this if we didn't do that. - Yeah, that's so true. Mom knows best, as always, super excited to have you guys on. I found your channel not too long ago. You guys haven't been doing it that long. I was actually in bed with my fiance, and he was watching some YouTube videos, and he's like, "Hey, have you seen this channel before, and I'm looking over, and you guys are going through all of these wine sellers?" And I'm like, "No, but this is super cool." And next thing I know, I'm on a deep dive rabbit hole, messaging this game at Wine Access. "Do you know about this? I haven't seen this before. This is super cool. They're getting huge views." And what I love the most is that this is a father-daughter duo, which we never really get to see in the wine world. So how's it been going? Tell me how this all started. - I just love wine, and she's kind of grown up with it and seen it. And I would have wanted to do something with wine and didn't really know what exactly. So B was done. She went and got her mechanical engineering degree, and she's like, "Oh, pop, so I don't want to work in an auto plant and all that kind of stuff." And I was like, "I don't blame you. I would need either." And so I just asked her for help. And during my college career, I was really into social media. I never was famous or anything, but my thing was makeup. So I knew how to do the video editing and long format. I've kind of taught myself that. But you knew that I did the social media part. You knew the wine part. So together, we just, we make a pretty good team. - Yeah, when did you guys start it? 'Cause I think when I was looking, it's not been more than like, we're in 2024 in the fall. It doesn't feel like it's been more than about a year now. - Yeah, so it feels like you started publishing until this year, right? - Yeah, I think it was February when we post our first video. - So what, that's six months, seven months? - Yeah, five or six months. So yeah, and the response seems like it's been huge. You guys are getting really big views and people are really exciting and commenting and asking for things and suggesting ways to do blind tastings. How's that been? Have you guys been finding that? - Reading the comments is like my favorite part of posting the video and then seeing what people have to say. - What was the first video that went viral for you guys? - I think it was our wine seller tour, like our personal one. We posted a couple of videos before that and people commented, we want a wine seller tour and he didn't think that people would watch that video, but I said, no, we gotta post that one. - Yeah, that was another thing I was wrong about. I was like, yeah, I don't really wanna do that. And she's like, no, we really, like people are telling us that that's what they wanna see. Like they wanna see the seller that's in the background. 'Cause they didn't really know that that was our wine seller. They thought that we were recording from, you know, some commercial space or some wine store or something like that. And so when we took people actually in and showed them the wine seller, it was like the lights went on. And. - Tell me when you started collecting wine. - Yeah, so I started collecting wine, probably 20, 20, 25 years ago. And I had been drinking wine, you know, been interested in wine my entire life. But that was the first opportunity that I had. It was the first time I had a place where I could put it. So it was in the seller. It was an old house that we bought and had a cold seller. We just converted that into a wine room. And then I started buying and that was a problem. (laughs) - It was a problem because you had no space or it was a problem because it was hitting your wallet a little harder than you expected. - Yeah, both of that, right? Like once you're into it, it's like, it's that next purchase and that curiosity and you just have to try, you just wanna, yeah, it's really fun. - Well, I'm gonna dive a little bit more into what's going on in your findings, but before we do that, I wanna get into what is happening in the wine world. (upbeat music) Okay, so there is a semi geeky topic that I feel like I need to talk about. And the reason I feel like I need to talk about it is in the last month or so, I've had this conversation with people around wine shipping and wine malls. And how complicated it is here in the United States. I can't speak for the rest of the world, but I was just in Italy and the Italians were asking about importing and distribution and it got me thinking that this is a conversation I think eventually we need to have. And so this article pops up on my feed. A California court could blow up what's called self-distribution and I'll try to simplify what's happening here. So there's a lawsuit before the Central District Court of California that's challenging the states wine self-distribution law as an unconstitutionally discriminatory against out of state interest. So here's what's happening. So in California, which is a place that I had worked as a somebody which I didn't realize until I got there, producers of wine can actually sell their wine directly to wine shops and restaurants without a distributor. And I'll back up and give you the macro level of this, which is the fact that in the United States, we have what's called the three tier system, which means wines have to go through three tiers before they get to you guys on the other side who are consuming them. So it starts at producer level. Sometimes it starts at the importer level if it's coming into the United States. Then it has to go through a distributor, which is a middle male who basically buys the wine from the producer, distributes it to either the retailer or the restaurant. And then the restaurant can then sell it to you guys or the retailer can sell it to you guys. And that's what's called the three tier system. Now every state sort of adheres to this, but in California, they have a very unique situation in which the producer can actually sell directly to the restaurant or the retailer without the need for a distributor. They can also do what's called DTC, which is direct to consumer. And we see this sometimes opening up in different states, but what you have to understand is that in the United States, you have basically 50 different countries in that every single state has different wine shipping and wine distribution laws, most of which go through this three tier system. And so what's happening is Washington and Colorado are arguing that California's law, which permits in-state wine suppliers to sell directly to local retailers, but not those based out of state, violates the Constitution's commerce clause, which broadly prohibits states from privileging in-state entities over similarly situated out of state ones. The state of California is arguing that the 21st Amendment grants its broad authority to control its internal alcohol market in whatever manner at once. I am quoting here, by the way, this is-- these are not my words, but I am quoting this article. And so this huge case, which they just attempted to get thrown out, is actually moving to the next steps of actual trial, which is huge and could shake up the alcohol industry, because if it is deemed that California is unconstitutional, then one, it prohibits what California can do. But on the other side, it could open up the opportunity for more wineries to actually start selling around the three tier model, which is huge. And so I wanted to kind of bring this up in conversation because I'm sure it pops you being a buyer of wine have dealt with this issue quite a bit. Buying wine from a retailer is wonderful. Obviously, this is a sponsored podcast from Wine Access. But I know a lot of collectors really love to buy it direct from the winery, which is very difficult in the United States. So I'm just curious if you have thoughts on any of this around wine shipping and the wine laws in the US. So I have strong opinions. B, do you have any? No. B has no opinions. But I figured, answered as wrong opinions. Oh my gosh. I just think that the three tier system is so antiquated. So you're right. Wine collectors want to buy it direct because, as you know, that ensures provenance. And you can kind of-- you just know that you know the whole transaction. You know it's coming and you're over nighting it. And you always do it in the winner and when it's cool, but not too cold. And it's just something we want to be able to do. We had the craziest experience with the three tier system, just recently. So as you know, our YouTube show is about wine. But we also do some on liquor. And we were doing an episode on Pappy. And we were going to Buffalo Trace in Kentucky. And we had to bring our own Pappy to Buffalo Trace to do a tasting at their facility. What? Because they have to sell their Pappy to the distributor, which then doesn't mean that they necessarily get it back. It is the absolute most insane system. in the-- here, I think in the United States, there is probably no more profitable business than to be a distributor. Well, it's a middleman business, yeah. Yeah, but you have a natural monopoly, right? So if you're distributing, of course, light or you're distributing, millilite or Budweiser, whatever, then you're the only one that can distribute that in the market. And similarly, if you have a winery and you represent a winery, you're the only one who can represent that winery. And so it's in anyone's distributor's interest to main status quo because you have a natural monopoly. And all the state laws typically protect you. I think that it's time to just modernize and kind of get with the times and get one of these antiquated laws. And we're treating alcohol like it's some crazy, dangerous thing that we should all be regulated thoroughly. I mean, right, I think it's easier now to get pot than it is alcohol. No, I think you're right. And in some cases and states, it absolutely is. And you're right. I mean, I am in Pennsylvania where it is a state controlled state. So it's even more complicated than a lot of other states, especially that of California. So in Pennsylvania, we have what's called the PLCB, which means that all of the wines that are sold here in Pennsylvania actually have to go through this state before it can go through a distributor. So the state buys it and then it goes to the distributor and then it goes to retail. And then it gets to us here in Pennsylvania and our homes. And it's just so wild because it does feel so antiquated and it does feel a little bit like we are handcuffing the producers. We're handcuffing the end consumer and who's really benefiting from this? All the guys in the middle. And it just feels unfair and it feels like as a wine collector, unnecessary, right? Because as you alluded to, all of these steps that happen compromise your wine. Any time a wine is translated, any time it changes hands, any time it sees movement, that is a compromising of the wine. And you're chemically speaking, these are just facts. And it doesn't matter how much you are air conditioning it, it doesn't matter how smooth it is. It's just wine doesn't want to be moved. It wants to stay still. And so, even from a wine drinking perspective, these wine malls are awful and it does extend, as you mentioned, into the spirit side of things. And unfortunately right now or fortunately depending on where you stand, this is all really state control. This does not, these laws don't necessarily exist at a federal level outside of the 21st Amendment. So it is incredibly difficult to navigate if you're trying to change these walls. And so I don't know if this particular case, I know there's other cases that are ongoing as well that are similarly situated. I don't know if this case is going to shift things for us, but I think the more that we talk about it, the more that people make their feelings known, the better it's going to be because the internet has modernized things. We have direct to consumer everything else, but wine seems to be the last frontier on that. The other thing to point out is, for those of you who are buying directly from wineries here in the US, which you can do in some instances, what you have to understand is those wineries have to have permits for every single state that they ship to, which costs money and it takes time. They have to be renewed. The wine malls can change in those states even after they get the permitting. So this is not just something that affects the end consumer. It's actually affecting their producers as well and it's money out of their pockets. So hopefully we can see things modernized and change for the better, but I just wanted to keep everyone abreast of what's going on in that world and just remind everyone that these are real issues that the wine world deals with as well as the spirit world. And I think if you understand the system and you're someone that's a drinker, that's something that take into consideration. Something else to take into consideration. And V, I'm really curious about your feelings since you are the younger one of the group here today. I'm curious on your thoughts on low or no alcohol wines. Where do you stand on this? Personally, I've never tried a non-alcoholic wine. I'd be interested to try it, but for me personally, I kind of prefer it to have alcohol in it. Should I be wearing it? Me and all my friends, we just, we want to keep the alcohol in there. You're still ready. You're ready to have the alcohol in there. It's interesting because the wine world, we're definitely seeing a few producers who have hopped on the no or low alcohol train. And one of these producers, not in California, but actually in Champagne, Tatten J, which I'm sure you guys are familiar with. The founders of Tatten J have adamantly said absolutely no to no alcohol sparkling, but the sun feels a little differently. The great grandson, despite his other family's playing, he has kind of just gone into business with their rival from LVMH, Moedish and Don, and they are actually going to be doing an alcohol-free sparkling. They're going to be supporting an alcohol-free brand sparkling called French Bloom. So he's got the support of them and that's going to be coming onto the market. I was asking because I personally am not the biggest fan of like no alcohol, low alcohol, like to me just drink water or like a spirit-free, like a ju- like I don't know, I just feel like if I'm drinking wine, I don't drink to get drunk, I drink for the flavor, but I do feel like when I'm drinking these no alcohol, low alcohol wines, they don't taste the same. They don't taste like wine and I don't personally feel like if I'm going to drink something that doesn't taste like the thing I wanted to be tasting, like I would just rather drink something else. Yeah, I don't drink to get drunk either, but you know, a little buzz is nice and it does change the flavor. It does make the flavor good. I think the issue is that the low alcohol or no alcohol wines don't taste like wine. Yes. I think the idea is great, but they just don't taste like that. So it got like me, I think if I were when I was your age, I would be like, there's no way. Now, when I don't want to have more than two glasses of wine because I'm going to feel it the next day, I'd love to have something that tastes really good and not have to worry about waking up a little sluggish and just health-wise as you get older, you just kind of pay attention to that. Yeah, well, and I think if you look at how these no alcohol, low alcohol wines are being made, like if you look into the process of it and you're someone that cares about how your food and wine is grown and made, it is an intensely aggressive process to remove alcohol from the wine. I mean, we're talking like reverse osmosis, things that are not, no health conscious person would be excited to see their wine go through what a de alcohol is. Wine goes through. And you know, maybe there is things that I don't understand in this world and I'm sure there's some producers that are making these wines that are like, you don't understand. But like to me, like what I have seen and what I've experienced is like, these are aggressive processes for a product that to me should speak to the land, it should speak to the producer, it should tell a story. And like when all of that is removed from the equation, then we're just left with something that I could get out of a can. You know, and I just, to me, it's just lost and I would just rather not drink wine. I'd rather open a can of coke or something, you know. Probably more delicious if I'm being honest. Yeah, I'm curious to see how well it will do because I do know a lot of people think Gen Z is more sober curious than I guess previous generations. None of my friends are really interested in not drinking alcohol. So I like your friends, V. So I mean, I'm just curious to see how I'll go. I am curious as well. I don't know if this is like a blip in time or if this is like an actual trend that has an a long term upward trajectory. But in that vein, it's been far too long since I've had a glass of wine and I feel like maybe you're feeling the same way. So at this point, let's invite all of our podcast wine club members to grab the wine that goes with this episode. We've got the duhig Grinosh 2022. You guys should have this in your podcast wine club shipment. And if you don't have this because you're not a member of the Wine Access Unfiltered podcast wine club, then this is your time to rectify that. To get on board the ship, I am your captain. I'm selecting the wine. It's four wines that you're getting delivered about every other month. It's $120 plus tax, but it includes shipping and you're going to get 10% off all of your wine access purchases. So grab a glass. This wine can really go. I've got it in my Gabriel Glass all-purpose, but feel free to throw it in a Burgundy or in a Bordeaux. Bordeaux Glass. Either one kind of works in this scenario. And we will see you back here in just a second. All right. I'm going to get my wine open. Do you guys have your wine? We do. We have it right here. Fantastic. And if you'd watched the episode on what episode was it that? I think it was the scarecrow episode. Oh my gosh, who was the scarecrow episode? I'm not going to open the wine. And so B because you didn't watch that episode. I think what you're alluding to is be need some work on our wine opening skills. Is that what's happening? Yeah. That was classic. It was, I thought it went on the funniest moments actually. Yeah. I will tell you, I had several years of struggling with opening wine bottles. And it does take practice. Many bottles to get through. But this one should be fairly easy. This is young wine. I think the issue that you ran into be is that the wines were a little bit on the older side. I think you guys had like a 2006 and a 2008. And even though that doesn't really seem old by like human standards. In wine standards, you know, a 15 to 20 year old quirk is not a young quirk. And so it can feel a little bit disintegrated and get soft. And so um. Exactly. I respect the attempt. And this just feels like a learning opportunity. And so I think with that in mind, pops, you just got to have her pull more quirk from older bottles to start digging into the cellar. - Absolutely. - I think that was my takeaway. - One of the things that we try to do is, we try to make sure that people aren't so serious about wine. - Yeah. - People always talk about, oh, I don't know anything about wine and they get so scared. And I think what, what B brings to the table is that she's, she's just like, here it is. We're gonna have fun with it. It's not dangerous, it's not scary. It's not something you have to be an expert at. And so we try to make it fun and just kind of low down, just have a good time with it. - Yeah. - And so, if you screw up a quirk on the scarecrow, who cares? - Who cares? Now, I love your perspective. I love your confidence and your ability to be like, this is what I like. I'm not super into these other things. And I think that's one of the, we just actually talked about in our previous episode. It's one of the hardest things to do is just say, like, I like this, I don't like this. And just feel really confident in doing that. And I think in your situation, I might be a little bit intimidated by having like what you're around and who you're around. So I love your ability to just be steadfast and how you feel. So keep, always keep that energy. Like no matter where you go in life, especially in the wine front, that is the vibe always. Just like what you like and don't apologize for it. I think it's great. - Thanks Amanda. - We have the 2022 DuHig Grenache. So this was part of the wine club. And I wanted to do this episode with you guys because I know pops, you've obviously been collecting wine for a number of years now. And so I'm sure you've seen producers who have been on the rise and had their glory. But I also thought be given what I've seen you like on the show before, I thought this is actually a wine that you would really appreciate. It seems to me like your palette definitely leans into the softer, fruity, or just super-quaffable wines. And so I thought this wine might be right up your alley. So for those who don't know this producer, this is from Harvest DuHig. So Harvest has been on the wine making team at Kamus for a little over 20 years now. We met back in 2017. Unfortunately during the fires that hit Atlas Peak, we needed some drone footage. I was like the only one in Napa Valley with a drone at the time. So I grabbed some drone footage for her and we met. And I just thought she was like the most fascinating human. She was so interesting and flash forward a few years later. She was like, "Hey, you know, I have my own wine label now." And so she's actually got a property in Coomsville with her husband that she farms and she takes care of and that's 100% Cabernet's swimming on. But given that she's continues to be on the Kamus wine making team and for those who've been paying attention to what Kamus has been doing, they've been investing a lot of money over on the other side of the Valkus range, which is Susoon County. It's spelled SUIS-UN. They've just started opened a winery there. In fact, called Kamus, so soon. And so around those parts, you'll find Cabernet's swimming on, but you'll also find with I think they do really well, which is Grinache. And these really kind of old vines, old vines Grinache's, you know, these huge like head-trained vines, they look like big bushes that sit super low to the ground. The wind is pretty strong there, but it's also very, very hot. And so you get this really beautiful expression of Grinache that feels, you know, very california sunkissed, very fruity, but also has this great intense structure and lift because of this beautiful wind that goes through. And so harvest, given that she's been working with some of that fruit for Kamus, decided that under her label, DuHig was going to start working with some of this fruit as well. And so that is what we're drinking in the glass today. So cheers to you both. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers. So good to share a glass with you guys. I think just like first impressions of the wine and bee, I want you to go first. I know that's big pressure. I would never do that to anyone else, but I love your, like, I love how you talk about wine. So just tell me like your first impressions, like it doesn't even have to be a tasting note. Just like what does it make you think of? Well, it's very fresh. I feel like the aroma, it's not too strong, but it almost smells like, I don't want to say grape juice, but it does smell like grape juice. And I know that's what it is. It's pretty. Yeah, it's very pretty. It smells delicious. Yeah, it reminds me of like a strawberry fruit roll up. Like it reminds me of like something that you would find in like a kid's lunch box, like gushers. Like you, I don't know if you're like, I don't know if that was your generation or not, but like gushers, fruit roll ups. Like that was my generation. And to me, like it just immediately brings me back to childhood when I wasn't drinking wine, but I was eating gushers. I think it's like a fruit snack flavor that I get more. So then like grape juice. Yeah. So I think that's spot on. This is just a super easy wine to drink. You guys had asked earlier on the email, if you should decant this. This does not need to canting. This is like a pop and pour. It's ready to go. But what I love is like there's a little bit of that granache black pepper on here as well. So it's not just this like straight fruitiness. There's also like this kind of like tingle underneath. And it's very different than what you might find. A granache you might find in the Ron Valley, but it does remind me a little bit of maybe something you'd find in like in Spain where it would be called granache. So the reason that I chose this is obviously, as we're hunting for the next big wine star, one of the easiest ways to find the next big wine star is through another wine star. Because often what we find is that why makers who are making particular wines that you might be fond of already or that are hard to get off and have these side projects that sometimes become stars in their own writing. We've seen that a lot in Appa Valley and around the world. But my first question to you, Pops, is like, is how are you finding the next big thing and have there been wines that you've discovered early on that you're like, yes, I bet on that one and I won. - So there are two sides to me. So the one side of me loves trying new wines and love trying and learning and all that. And then there's another part of me that just, I just find something and up by cases of it and I see what happens over a long period of time. - Mm-hmm. - You know, one of the things that early on, we had a friend in Wala Wala and we made some wine together and got 17 cases of wine. And then over the next following 10 years, I got to see what happened to that wine and it actually was really good wine. One of the wines that I early on really thought was just very accessible, was Althamore. Early on in like Napa, when I got into Napa wines, I thought Althamore was really great. And it's one of the swindlery that most people don't know about and I don't feel like they've gotten accolades and maybe they should have, but I always loved it. So that was kind of our house wine around here. - Well, they're more farmers than they are. They've started, I mean, they're really known in Napa as being great vineyard owners and growers of grapes, which is another way that you can always find great wines. There's a lot of these vineyard growers that I knew you guys tasted, Abreu on the Scaracro video, which is one of my favorites, especially the Modrona and the Capella from St. Alina, but a lot of these guys who own their vineyards who are more known for farming and for growing grapes also have great projects of their own, Abreu being a great representation of that. We're seeing that with like more solely right now, which was one of the heralded vineyards of Napa Valley. They're starting to release their own wines, MacDonald was another one, they were selling grapes to Mandavi for years and now they're a cult wine maker. So that is a great little hack as well. And I think Altamir is a great example of that. One of those producers that just kind of, as their own thing, they stay very under the radar, but they do produce really consistent, delicious wines. - Well, you mentioned MacDonald, but that is like one that I really want to try. - Oh, okay. - And my friend who did one of the wine sellers was just on the phone with them and is on the list now. And I was like, that can't be true. They have the longest list out here. So he's showing off and so yeah, if you got any ends. - Yeah, well, Alex and Graham are friends. I think what they're doing is really spectacular. And a great example of two guys, a huge heritage in Napa Valley that really just saw the potential in their own land and decided to bet all their apples on that, which I really love. And actually Graham is a great wine maker. He's actually starting to make wine for other producers. In fact, he is now the wine maker at Brand on Pritchard Hill in Napa Valley. So there's a, especially in Napa, there's a lot of interesting, for lack of a better term like INSAS. So you're seeing like a lot of wine makers like, you know, who make this and they make this. Can Nigel Kinsman is a great example of that. You know, really kind of made his name with the agenda label and now Kinsman is another one that's like very hard to get, huge scores. You know, I think it becomes like a fun game where you're, you know, you're chasing a vineyard or you're chasing a wine maker, but McDonald's, man, that was, that was one even for me living in Napa Valley that like just came out of nowhere. And we were like, what the heck happened? Like all of a sudden, like this producer that, you know, was kind of on the small side is now this huge, expensive, heralded, allocated winery. So yeah, well, hopefully we can get, we actually did a really fun tasting with them years ago back when I was at press. And it was kind of before people really knew what McDonald was. And everyone left that tasting, you're like, how did we not know about these wines before? So he's jealous. You know, I think this is the best part of doing what we're doing is that we learn the stories behind the stories. We talk to people and actually, you know, we've had really good luck with the wineries respond back and give us the information. So we'll tell them, you know, we're doing this episode and we'll reach out. And a lot of times I would imagine that they would just, you know, be like, we don't care, you know, do your thing. But amazingly, everybody seems to be getting back to us, giving information, saying, oh, everybody, but most of them. Most of them. And oftentimes kind of saying, hey, I know this is what it says and they're kind of the public domain, but this is a real story and this is what's behind it. And that's been really gratifying. I think it's been the most fun about doing this. Yeah. We always want to tell the story and we want to get the facts right. And we want to get good B-roll from the wineries so we can show our viewers because not everyone can go out and see the winery and where it's made. So if we can show that to our viewers, then it makes us really happy. - Yeah, I think you guys do a great job with that. When I was watching the "Scarecrow" ABER episode, which I won't give away 'cause it's a blind episode in which Beenos Alliance, but Pops does not, or doesn't know which ones are tasting. It's great. And throughout them tasting, I love that you guys cut to some of the B-roll and the story behind some of these wineries. You know, a lot of people know that these wines are 100.1s. You know them is expensive and allocated, but it's the story is that keep us coming back to it. And so the story is that often draw us in. And I think as people are hunting for that next big wine star, like, you know, the most compelling stories are often the ones that make it the longest and have, you know, the longest shelf life in your own cellar because that's what we come back to. The taste is great. We love drinking wine, but for me, it's always the stories. I'm curious though, like, you know, in the advent of the internet and obviously YouTube, are you, either of you, utilizing, like, any forums, any, like, wine berserkers or Raveno, or like, Reddit to, like, hunt for new things, or are you just kind of, like, letting them come to you? - Do you even know any of those things, or? - Well, thank you so much for the-- (laughing) - You cellar tracker, though. So cellar tracker is one my big thing is that love cellar tracker. And I love kind of connecting with people in cellar tracker and listening to what people have to say. And, but oftentimes, you know, there's no substitute for trying. I mean, like, you just have to try. And, you know, I'm a little skeptical. There's a little, there's a part of me skeptic in me, but I feel like there's always so much hype, and then I try something and then, like, oh, that really wasn't that great. But there's no substitute for trying. - Yeah, and you're also, I feel like you, our friends with a lot of other collectors who are crazy, and they're always the ones that know, like, okay, this is the new upcoming, you know, one. You have a couple of friends that like that. - Yeah, but you know when we went to Yakima and did the one cellar tour out there? - Mm-hmm. - I don't think I've ever met anybody who knows more about, like, a wide variety of ones. That was absolutely mind blowing. That must have been, like, the most knowledgeable, nerdy wine collector I've ever met in my life. - Yeah, which one was this? This was the 5,000 bottle wine cellar. - Yeah. - It was the one who had a buying problem, not a drinking problem. - Yes, yes, yes. That was a, yes, he had an encyclopedia knowledge of not only wine, but his cellar, 'cause he was talking about the Armenian wine, but it was actually Iranian grapes or something, and that was all from the top of his head too. There was no, like, oh, let me just, it was like not scripted or anything. Like, that was just him. And that's the thing, we gotta put everything into, like, 12 or 15 minutes. - So, I mean, he talked for a lot. - He talked for hours about, like, we could have filled the two hour episode. - Ruby. - Yeah. - Would have been some of your takeaways, like, have you, I mean, I'm sure you have lots of friends that are wine collectors, but going into other people's wine cellar isn't talking to them, have you, what have you learned, like, what have been, some things that you've maybe gained from this? - When I've seen my dad drink one in the past, I never really considered the story behind the bottle, but now, when I'm drinking a fine bottle or someone showing me a fine bottle from a cellar tour, I can really appreciate how many hands the bottle has went through to get to where it is today, and how much effort has been put into making one singular bottle. So, and just the story behind it, like, we were talking about earlier, makes me appreciate it, even though I'm not really a wine lover, so. - Not yet. - Yeah. - Well, I love wine, but I'm not like a wine lover. - You're just starting the journey. - Yeah. - Yeah. - It's a rabbit hole, and it is a journey, and I think that's the other thing that people maybe don't understand, 'cause sometimes they hear stories, like the guy from Yakima, you know, I think he said he started collecting around 2008 or so. Great time to start collecting wine, by the way, from a financial standpoint. But I think, you know, sometimes people hear these stories, and they get overwhelmed, there's like, well, I wasn't bitten by the bug immediately. Like, I didn't have that immediate draw to wine, and for some people, like, it is a slow burn. Like, it is something that takes time to get on that train, and I think just, you know, finding little tidbits, finding other people who are like you, which is why I think, you know, this channel is so important, because there is a lack of representation in the wine world for everyone. And so, I think when people see themselves in like, you pops or you be, or even like this wine collector in Yakima, like, I think it's so important, because not everybody arrives to this wine destination in the same way. So it's, for me, it was always great to see other like-minded people who didn't necessarily look like me, who but who maybe thought like me. And I was the same way. Like, I feel like I was interested in wine, but it was a slower burn. Like, I was an immediate way. Like, I have to know everything, and I have to know it now. Like, I was happy to like start learning at a slower, more long term pace. And I think in the end, that's really what has allowed me to stay in this industry and continue loving wine, is I didn't feel pressured at the beginning to jump into the rabbit hole and just start sailing down it. I am curious though, you know, for you pops, like, have there been any like actual tips or like takeaways from in terms of like storage or like wines or like anything that you're like, ooh, like that, that was a really good idea. Like, I might implement that. - We all tend to think that the way we approach collecting is kind of the main way. And what I found is that there are so many different approaches to collecting, right? So I tend to collect, I tend to find something and then I buy a case of it at least. So I can see what happens over time. And also if I really like it, I don't want to drink one bottle and then go and try to figure out and find another bottle. And I'm like, I want to have it, right? Like, I want to be able to go back to it. And so I would say that, you know, I find, let's say I find, Palmer is one of my favorites, right? So I'll have 150 bottles of Palmer or 100 bottles of Palmer. I can see what happens to the different vintage. I get really excited about that. Whitman, on the other hand, for instance, was really all about trying new wines and trying things and learning about them. So yeah, he had 5,000 bottles, but he had 4,000 different labels of vintage. So he was all about learning about new places. And so for him, it's a completely different approach. The terms of building a seller, you know, I told you about the first seller that we had, which was kind of like an old coal seller that was converted into wine seller. But we had a chance of building our own house a few years back. And when we designed it, I actually decided the house around the wonder. So I said, I don't want to have a seller. I love the wine. I love looking at it and going and messing with it. And so our wine room is between our kitchen and our living room. And literally, as you come into our house, you will see our wine room. It is the center point of our house. And of course, most of us, as she looks in the steak house, which is kind of funny. Well, that's not the worst thing. The one thing that I like about the seller is that it's not hidden away. Yeah, I love that. You know, when I'm in the kitchen, the door to the wine seller or the wine room is, you know, right there. So I can go out. It takes me about 20 seconds from the kitchen, have a bottle and have it opened. And it sparks conversation as well. Oh, yeah. And it's social. And sometimes we just walk in there and we start drinking. And then everybody forgets that it's 55 degrees. And the one thing that I will never do is I'll never not have a generator. OK, smart. And I'll never have not two systems. OK. Because the system will always go down. There will always be something. If you've had it for five or six or seven years, it'll go down. And it'll always go down in the summer, right? What is hot? And so I want to make sure that I always have backup to the backup. The two systems and a generator. And I just, you know, that's worked out pretty well for us. I think that's super smart. I also love that you built it around your lifestyle. And I do think sometimes, you know, there's a few different types of seller situations that I've seen. One is the-- we'll affectionately call it the "told brother" is built. So for those of you who know told brother, their wine sellers, so to speak, are never-- they're never for the wine collector or for the wine for that matter. I always find that they build them as like in a sunlit room. We're like, what the-- that's not helpful. First of all, that's going to heat up. Second of all, light strike is a real thing. And it just never looks like it's a good space thing. And then on the other side of things, I often see these sellers that nobody ever goes to, because they're dark and they're in basements, and they don't feel welcoming or like a space where somebody actually wants to sit and enjoy wine. And so I love seeing examples like this, like that you have, where it's really just integrated into your home lifestyle. And it makes it easy for someone to go in their grab a bottle, enjoy it, take time to figure out what you want to drink. And then it, you know, really becomes this extension of what you're doing in the kitchen and what you're doing in your own life. But I feel like there is a huge disconnect, at least in the United States, around this. And it's why people don't drink or wine at the dinner tables, because it feels so separated or second thought. I have a dream for a wine seller that is similar in the lifestyle sense. But my dream is to have a very, very pretty, very girly wine seller, so to speak. And so I have this Pinterest board that someday will come to life. because what I often see in wine sellers is it does look steak housey, right, which is really beautiful, but I've worked in those wine sellers for my entire life and it's not what I want at home. I want something that's simply the opposite. - I love that. - Manifest that girly wine seller. - I love that. - It's manifesting. I'll show you the Pinterest board. It's beautiful. So I mean, obviously the internet's a great place to research wine, but traveling to wine regions is another great place to find the next big wine star. I love that you mentioned Yakima. I think going to some of these other quote unquote other wine regions is a great place to find things that you wouldn't find. And one place that you want to call out is in Oregon, I don't know, have you guys spent any time in Oregon in the Wollamit Valley? - My wife and I went to college in Tacoma, Washington. - Okay. - So we were really close to it, but not been an alignment valley for wine purposes, but that sounds like a really great destination right now. And especially since we're going to go into wedding in April to Oregon, that's a natural place. - That you should definitely make a point to go to Oregon. I think Oregon is one of the most Oregon and Washington in the United States are two of the most exciting regions for wine. And when I was in Oregon a few years ago, someone tipped me off to this place called the Carlton Wine Maker Studio. And it's really sort of, it's sort of a custom crash facility, but it's really become more of an incubator for these up and coming brands. And they've had some really impressive wineries that have come out of there, that have started there, gotten their roots, built their business, and then gone on to have their own thing outside of there. But what's cool is you can actually go and taste there. So you can go and taste like 40 different producers of Oregon wineries at the Carlton Wine Maker Studio. And the people that work there know them all intimately. It's super fun. And so that was a place that I still have quite a few wines that I was just like, build me a case of what you think is super exciting. I don't care what it costs, just put them in there and like send it home with me. And to this day, it was one of the best decisions I ever made because these are wines I never would have found. And some of them have actually become like pretty big producers since then. Have you ever gone to a wine region and like, you know, done anything like that, or even like gone to a restaurant and talked to the Sam about wines that maybe they know, but you didn't know? - Well, we're about to. (laughing) - Where are you going? - We're going to the pluck them in in New Jersey. And we're doing a wine seller tour video there next month. So we are going to be talking to the Sam there. So, but I'm sure that you've already done that before, right? - Yeah, that's actually that's funny. So we do get a lot of fans and reach out. And so the Sam there reached out and they just thought that we wanted to, we've just stayed in touch and they said, hey, do you want to do an upset appearance? Yeah, we're going to go up there and take a look at the 50,000 bottles that they have. So he's pretty excited about-- - Oh my God. - Yeah, so he's pretty excited about serving us something that we haven't had before. But yeah, I think going to places and trying wines, that's like, it's one of the most fun things. And so, you know, at the college and in Washington state, so we traveled to the Eastern part of the state there, of course, and had an introduction to some of the wines there. One of the early greatest wines that I had, probably this must have been like back in '95 or '96 was Lennetti. - Wow. - Lennetti was just like, you know, it was, to me, that was a whole new level of wine that I had never had. And-- - Their icons now. - Yeah, now their icons, but back then it was, you know, up and coming and we were talking to the second generation just recently and learned about the story behind the story and what a great winery, what a great story. And that, gosh, that's 30 years ago, I'm aging myself. - Yeah, that was before I was born. Oh my gosh. - Well, and there have been so many producers that have come out of Lennetti, right? So you've had like, figins come out of there. There have been quite a few like wine makers who have worked at Lennetti that have gone on to do their own thing. You know, another great example of, you know, when you're hunting for the next big thing, like just follow the line, you know, look to things that maybe you already like or producers that you've aspired to try and kind of see, you know, what else they're up to. You know, you guys tasted scarecrow not long ago. So you'll Welsh is the wine maker for scarecrow. She used to be involved in a few other projects, Kiever being one of them in Napa Valley, but now she actually only makes one other wine called Lazz, which is fantastic. And then on the flip side of that, the JJ Kohn vineyard, you know, back in the day, if you can find them, A2 used to work with that vineyard exclusively. So you can find the A2, and now I know a whole bunch of people are pissed that I'm saying this right now. You can find the old A2s in the late 90s, early 2000s, that say JJ Kohn on them, you're basically drinking old scarecrow, which is so cool. So I love that you guys went into the history of that, but these are-- Oh my gosh, we're going to get on that. That's talk about a rabbit hole now, huh? Yeah, sorry. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. I mean, they're not easy to find, but they are out there. And I find that when you do see them on the websites or the shops that sell these wines on the secondary market, they're not terribly expensive. I think you can usually get them for around $150 to $250. Well, man, now I'm sorry. We've got to stop the recording right now. I got things to do. [LAUGHTER] Yeah, we accidentally ended up with a few bottles of that. We had bought some A2s that it wasn't listed as JJ Kohn when I purchased it. And then it arrived. And it was JJ Kohn. And I was like, oh, this is a big score. How exciting is this? I think if you're looking for the next big wine star, I think watching channels like yours is a great place to start, because you guys are diving into the stories, and you are giving the information for people to set out on their own journey. That if they want to try these wines, great. Now they have the story, but there's also information there to kind of let them follow their own path. And in a world where there's so much information on the internet, and there's easy ways to contact people, it makes it, I think, a lot more fun, especially now that the wine publications are becoming fewer and fewer. And a lot of what is in there isn't the most helpful information in that way. We certainly won't criticize our wine publications, but definitely different than what they were 20 years ago. You guys, this has been so much fun. Tell me outside of going to New Jersey, what is next for the channel? I think that one of the things that's really resonated well with a lot of people is the wine facilitators, so we want to do more of them. We're going to go up to New Jersey, but we also want to hear from people. We want to have some volunteers. We have a couple of other people in the line that just have great sellers. And it's just really fun to visit people and talk to them about the wine journey and what they're collecting and how they got into it. And almost every one we talk to so far started with a wine fridge. Yeah. That is the common denominator. It's like, I started with a wine fridge and I thought I could never fill it up. And three weeks later, it was full. Yeah. We're doing the Unicos from Spain, Roberto del Diro. We're doing a few wines from them. Very casual, very inexpensive, easy to get one. You know, I love it. I think it's just really fun to try them. No, I think I'm actually being very genuine. I think that's great. I don't think enough people try those wines in a genuine way, especially not on the internet. Yeah. And I think we've had a lot of fun with them. And some of them had been, you know, of course, one of our first videos was turned out to be a total flop was the DRC La Tosh. Yeah. And we were opening an '02 La Tosh. And we were so excited. And I was like, this has got to be great. In turn, that was a bad bottle. Oh. And so of course, we showed that, you know, we showed that it was a bad bottle and ended up pouring out a third of the bottle. And it was, that's OK. Like, that's going to happen at times. And if you're getting into expensive burgonies, you better know that. Or just burgundy at all. Yeah. I was like, that can happen to you. I mean, that is the name of the game with wine. And as you alluded to earlier about, you know, buying enough wine to kind of cover your bases, like, these things do happen, right? Storage is a big thing. Obviously, wineries do everything they can to get the best quality quirks, especially that level, but courty bottles are a thing. It's really out of our control, although less so these days. Yeah. I mean, I think a case is great if you can afford to buy a case of something, but even just like three bottles. You know, if you find something that you're really interested in and you're curious about, and you think that you want to have the potential relationship, buy a few bottles. Because they're not always the easiest to find later on. And it's always better if you can like have these three pictures. There are things that stayed within your own provenance for a longer period of time. You know, the flip side of that that I always sort of worn against is don't buy too much, especially if you're younger, like you be like, your palate's going to change. So the wines that you love today may not be the wines that you love in 10 years or 15 years. And I hear that all the time. So that is a sort of cautionary tale to like, you know, buy what you feel like you can manage, not only financially, but that also like, you can go back and find them if you want more of them. So don't overdo it. I guess is what I'm saying. I think that's really good advice, Manic, because I certainly have been up that path. And so I ended up buying a lot of wines that I thought I was going to like. And I ended up not really liking them. And then all of a sudden, I have 500 bottles of wine that I know in my heart that they're supposed to be great bottles, right? But it's just I'm not getting there. And so I ended up selling them. Yeah. Because I was keeping track and I wasn't drinking them. And I was like, you know, but you're absolutely right. It's easy to buy too much. But it is so fun in your collecting wines. So I do get it. I guess my last question to you before we go, it's just because you had brought it up very briefly is, I just watched the architectural digest Jimmy Butler tour where they did about three minutes in his cellar. Which is very, very cool. He's got a great cellar. Are there any like celebrities? or dream sellers that you would want to do a video in? - I would say Charles Barclay. - Charles Barclay, okay. - I hear he has a good seller. I would love to see this. And I also think that he's just a personality that I would love to meet and see, you know, what's really behind it. - That would be a good one. Yeah, I would like to see that. I've got a few on my list that I eventually would like to see Lebron seller obviously, but also a Coach Crate popovich. I'd love to see his wine seller. So Popovich has the most amazing story. And I love how he teaches his players to drink wine and to the story behind it. I would love to meet him and talk wine with him. That would be great. - Yeah, we've got a degree of separation. So someday I would love to make it work. And we've had a few athletes and celebrities on the podcast, especially in the first season that was kind of our, the whole theme of the season. But yeah, I, you know, it's so fun to see passionate wine collectors around the world. And I love that you guys are giving them a chance to showcase their collection. It really does feel like you're going into like the room of like a seven year old kid who's been collecting like Hot Wheels and like comic books. Like they get so excited to show you like all their little gems. So it's been really fun to watch. And I really, I really think you both were taking the time to do that for making that available to all of us out here that are not a part of that when you're filming. So it's wonderful. I hope you keep doing it. And I really appreciate you taking the time to join me today. Well, thanks for having us. This has been a lot of fun. So much fun. Good. I'm glad. And for those of you who are listening at home, just a reminder, we have the 2022 du Hague Grinosh this afternoon or this evening or whenever you're listening. And you can grab that via the Wine Access and Filth-Head Podcast Wine Club. Everything that you need is below along with all of the links to find our poor decisions on YouTube channel and all the places you can find me and pause. Thank you, guys. Cheers. Cheers. Thank you so much. Thank you, guys. [MUSIC PLAYING]