Humane World for Animals-what can YOU do to help animal abuse! | SOP ep. 127 - Dr. Katherine Polak

Welcome to Speaking of Pets. I'm Dr. Alice Novotny-Jeroman, a board-certified veterinary dermatologist. And I'm not. I'm Janet Novotny-King, the doctor's sister, podcast co-host, pet owner, rescuer, and lover. We're here to provide pet owners with science-based information to help them be the best pet parents they can be. Here's today's episode created just for you and your pets. The following episode of Speaking of Pets podcast is brought to you by Dr. Tim's Pet Food Supplements. Hey, everyone. Welcome to the show. I'm going to fan gush because our guest today is doing everything a veterinarian and animal lover wishes they could do. And she does this on a global basis, meaning all over the world, not just in this country. We have Dr. Catherine Pollack, who is the senior VP for the Centers of Expertise at the Humane World for Animals, which was formerly the Humane Society of the United States, if I'm speaking correctly. Dr. Pollack is a veterinarian. She's double boarded in shelter medicine and public health. And she goes to places and rescues these animals from the dog meat trade, from the cat and dog meat trade, from animal experimentation. If animals are being abused, her group goes in and does something about it. And I couldn't be more proud of what she does because all of us here. Speaking of pets, we're passionate about pets, and we want to see them done what's right by them. So welcome, Dr. Catherine Pollack. I'm so thankful. And first of all, I know you were just in Romania, so I'm glad you're home safe and can tell us all about what you do. Thank you. No, thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to share with you a little bit about, give you a little glimpse into the work that we do around the world to help. I mean, not only companion animals, but really all animals. Farm animals, right. Exactly. Wildlife, animals in Texas. Animal testing, animals in disaster and animals that face cases of cruelty and abuse as well. So we're busy, that's for sure. I saw that you guys just, your group sent a group over to Venezuela to help the animals from the earthquake. That's correct. We have our amazing Latin America colleagues there that are working side by side with humanitarian groups in some of the most disaster stricken areas to help provide care for pets that are affected as well from the disaster. So it's some of the incredible work that's being done there. Janet, she's their nonprofit. Janet used to head up a nonprofit, so I knew Janet, you would love that. For humans, but same, for humans. But so how did you get started in this? Yeah, I'm anxious to know how you got to where you're going. Yeah, that's a great question. I asked myself that as well. It's an interesting career path. That's what's amazing about veterinary medicine, right? You just never know where your career is going to take you. I've always had a propensity, I think, for helping underserved animals, underserved communities. And that path took me towards a pathway in shelter medicine. So I did an internship or residency in shelter medicine, thinking that this is really the crisis of our times in terms of companion animals. And I did during my residency at the University of Florida, I had the opportunity to do some disaster relief work for the International Fund for Animal Welfare. That was in Bangkok. And there was some catastrophic flooding, and they needed someone to help with disaster sheltering and some spay/neuter work. And I went over there for the first time. I was there for about a month, and I really fell in love. I would say I fell in love with Asia, first and foremost. But I really was also struck by just the needs, the needs from an animal welfare perspective, from a veterinary training perspective. I think we get really stuck in our bubble here in the U.S. There are so many specialists and subject matter experts that you can call on. And then you go to some places globally, and there's just not a lot of research. I thought, gosh, the disparity is just so glaring. Came back, I finished my residency, and there was a position that opened up at the largest animal welfare organization in Southeast Asia called Soy Dog Foundation. It's a big kind of dog charity. They were looking for a director. And I thought, I had been in academia for a while. I thought, let's give it a go. I'll go for a year. And then I was there for more than a decade. I just never really came back. And so I worked for that organization for about five years. That's actually how I got involved first with the dog meat trade, specifically. And then I worked for a European charity for about five, six years called Four Paws. It's based in Vienna. I oversaw their Asia kind of companion animal work and programs. And now I'm with Humane World Health Organization, which is the main world for animals working in an international context. So it's been an incredible journey. And I'm just so fortunate each and every day that I get to do the work that I do. Did you live in those countries while you were doing this? Yeah. So I was based out of Southeast Asia for more than a decade. And so I think to really have impact, well, I mean, it's hard. You could have impact, right, by just leading and coordinating global teams, which is what I do now. But at that time, to really be immersed and to really understand and to form those teams and those relationships, particularly politically, that would be very difficult to do from afar. And you've got to be boots on the ground. And you know, I'm a dermatology specialist, but I'm retired. So now I'm helping out rescues in this country. And one I'm helping in Venice, Florida, because I think you're in Florida, if I'm not mistaken. That's correct. Yeah. And I'll give them a plug, Silver Snout, Senior Dog Rescue. You know, it's like mash. It's like we get these dogs in, horrible teeth, these mammary tumors. And like, this is not close to anything you were doing globally, but it's so different from, I saw animals in very good health as a specialist with problems that regular vets, you know, we're having trouble with. Okay. But these dogs had no care. And like you said, whatever care you're giving is helping a thousand percent. So that's just my little story. I can't even imagine when you were in Korea, shutting down the dog and cat meat trade. I can't even imagine. And plus the diseases that you saw that we don't see here. Well, that's, that's very true. I mean, all those challenges, yeah, you know, ring so true to me. And I'll just say again, I think what's really unique also about our work with Humane World for Animals is that, you know, we have, you know, we have some type of programmatic presence in 50 countries around the world, but we also country offices around the world. What that means is that we have local teams that are out there because it's just really hard to have the impact that you want without, particularly when you're trying to change political systems and laws for animals, you've got to have boots on ground, local teams that can form those relationships. And so, you know, we're not really fly in, fly out, you know, to organizations with the exception of disasters and when there's kind of short-term emergency needs. So can you share with our listeners, clearly you've seen a lot more than, than we Americans have seen, right? And like what in each country, what are the issues? Well, you throw a dart at the map and you will find issues, right? With the duty to animals, sadly. Right. And I think, you know, one of the issues that we face is just, you know, this lack of legal protection, right? I, you know, I think, you know, we're fortunate here where if we see a case of animal abuse, what we pick up the phone and we can call someone in so many places around the world, like those fundamental laws and regulations just aren't even in existence. So you're really starting from scratch. And also I think from a veterinary perspective, something that I really struggle with or something that I'm really passionate about building is veterinary capacity globally. Again, we think about how blessed we are here in the US with emergency clinics, urgent care specialists. And what people don't know, many people don't know is that in many countries with developing economies, veterinary education is focused on livestock production because those are the animals of perceived economic importance. So then you have countries, Latin America is a great example of this, where, you know, dogs live outside, right? Like they're community owned. They're, they're generally not kept in the house. Well, that, that comes with a lot of issues, right? Because there's car accidents, there's animals, uncontrolled breeding. People don't want the puppies, right? In some places there's rabies. And then the government says, okay, well let's hire some vets and like, let's clean this up. Let's, let's take care of this problem. Well, these vets have no idea how to do a humane spay or neuter procedure. They certainly don't know about pain management. And so then what we see is these government run clinics that have very high morbidity and mortality, right? Yeah. Because again, there's no aseptic technique, there's no pain management, and then many of the dogs will die or they'll have incisional complications. And then communities, they, they don't trust these clinics anymore. And for good reason, why would I take my dog when Brownie next door died after they went to this clinic? So, so, so veterinary training is an issue because it can be easy to say, well, just launch a spay neuter program. Like those, okay, well with what vets? Like, like with, where do you want me to find these people? Anesthesia. Anesthesia. Yeah. Anesthesia and spay and neuter is expensive. Like it's really expensive. We have big teams in India doing spay and neuter work because there's about 70 million street vets. dogs across india if you've been to india you'll know that they are on every corner right they're really a part of the landscape um and you know there is money india government gives money actually to each municipality and there's a bidding process the problem is the tender the contract goes to the lowest bidder and so that amount that they charge doesn't cover pain management it doesn't cover humane right so it's done really poorly so that's really where we come in we have big teams in different cities in india we have municipal contracts and we also do training for veterinarians right i would say that's that's another thing that we work on in the companion animal space and then of course the dog and cat meat trade that's another issue that that affects you know 20 to 30 million dogs and cats every year that's a huge issue um puppy mills i mean you name it there there's just kind of an endless issue and that's just in the companion animal space it's not you know even at the poor farm animals everything else but you know politically when you're in some of these countries i mean you must be a little fearful or a lot fearful well you know and again i think it depends on having you know our local teams local resources right that can help i mean sometimes things can feel precarious you know for sure particularly when we're doing a lot of work we have to be very careful about what we're doing investigations i would say that's you know the time if there's ever a time that you feel yeah you know again a bit uncertain uh you know we obviously try to protect our staff though and try to make sure that we mitigate any possible risk during during those activities but that's why having on the ground teams is so important to help guide our activities there you know i'm janet i'm putting on um a youtube video from her group that shows them rescuing these dogs and and i think what's pro what because it's such a financial gain to raise dogs for the dog meat how you guys then switched it over to these people now are raising crops instead of having a dog meat farm because think about it janet it's in their culture right and don't get me started on that but you've got to show these people that i'm taking away the money you're making i'm going to replace it with this so you can still make money and not kill these poor domestic animals i think that's tough and changing a culture is a huge challenge yeah yeah i i totally i agree with those statements and i think we have to recognize that many i mean most animal issues they're people issues right people are putting animals in factory farms and people are putting animals in labs and people are also stealing or breeding dogs for the dog meat trade and so we have to you know i think we let we become veterinarians because we love animals and we just think we think we're working with animals when you know that's just not the case and so particularly in the dog meat trade i mean this is an economic industry like any other and people are buying selling and slaughtering dogs because it provides a certain income and so it is really challenging to work you know on these industries without addressing the economic nature of it right and so in south korea i will say south korea is different because it's the only country in asia that farms dogs in an industrial way so at the peak of its industry there was about 18 000 dog farms across south korea and it wasn't something that people really talked about right like there certainly wasn't a lot of activism or people speaking out in it it wasn't something that people really talked about in many cases people did the opposite they defended it as kind of national heritage and that came from a lot of western condemnation right and that's where having again a locally facing campaign is so important and we took the approach in south korea to work with farmers in the industry because i think and one thing that surprised me is i've worked on this issue for many years is when you talk to people are people right and when you talk to them a lot of them don't want to be doing this they don't want to be doing this they don't want to be doing this they just don't they don't want to be electrocuting dogs or that's having dogs in their yard right and their kids are shaming them as well there's a lot of stigma that's growing around this and so they would do something different if they had the opportunity to do so and it's a win it's a win for obviously for us as an organization we get to rescue the dogs it's a win for them because they get to do something different um and then it's a win certainly for the animals as well so we and the thing that also was you know really important in korea is we leveraged these politically so again i mentioned you know 10 plus years ago no one was talking about the dog meat trade but we started doing these closures and they were getting incredible media government officials started coming city officials would come and so we were able to leverage these closures to really show the korean public what was happening to these animals and to show them also like a dog's a dog like there was this this misconception like oh that's a meat dog right because it's a different two different breeds that are typically considered meat dogs and so then we started bringing these dogs into public spaces we would do i love tosa days right at the mall or we would show adoption videos of these dogs you know flourishing in their homes and so it was really about kind of changing the mentality as well and we've been successful in that right are most of the young people buying into that now well i think you know we see i see asia as i mean it and pet food companies certainly see this as well like this is the new frontier where pet ownership is booming right there is huge investment i mean wasawa was in china a couple years ago and the attendance was unreal like yeah there's this huge pet and and veterinary markets in some of these countries and so we recognize that that's in conflict with slaughtering and reasons stealing and you know the other point i'll make is that out side of south korea most of the dogs that end up in the dog meat trade are stolen like they're stolen right in vietnam it is hard to find a pet owner who has not had their pet stolen at some point i mean almost impossible because it is so pervasive they will steal dogs as people are walking them on a leash down the road oh my goodness showing them when they're on a motorbike like literally pulling the dog it is so pervasive and it's causing you know public outcry people are saying enough is enough and so good i know this is a winnable campaign because we have the public on our side and we do so many opinion polls as well and like we know that public sentiment is largely against this you know this trade in practice well and i think it's a good timing with the the protest for the beagle release that just happened and now they're doing rounding up the wild horses and and people are get against that which you know flying a helicopter five feet above your head would scare the crap out of me um it yeah so i think the timing is good for that yes i mean you know there's so many issues and i think as we think about the movement as a whole i mean some of these things are becoming more mainstream it's just not okay anymore it's not okay right yeah and so i think with public awareness increasing you know we're getting further and further in achieving our mission in some of these um still some challenges though for sure so i think it's a good time to start thinking about what we're doing and how we're going to do it i think it's a good time to start thinking about what we're going to do and i think it's a good time to start thinking about what we're going to do and i think it's a good time to start thinking about what we're going to do and i think it's a good time to start thinking about what we're going to do and i think it's a good time to start thinking about what we're going to do and i think it's a good time to start thinking about what we're going to do and i think it's a good time to start thinking about what we're going to do and i think it's a good time to start thinking about what we're going to do and i think it's a good time to start thinking about what we're going to do and i think it's a good time to start thinking about what we're going to do and i think it's a good time to start thinking about what we're going to do and i think it's a good time to start thinking about what we're going to do and tj x tj x tj x tj tj tj cnc clothing company which i love because cnc clothing company which i love because cnc clothing company which i love because they do a lot of florida clothing they do a lot of florida clothing they do a lot of florida clothing uh look chewy dog tv hearts hearts loving uh look chewy dog tv hearts hearts loving uh look chewy dog tv hearts hearts loving paws but paws but paws but what what can our listeners do i mean i'm what what can our listeners do i mean i'm what what can our listeners do i mean i'm sure donating to to your group which i is what we can do okay well i mean is what we can do okay well i mean is what we can do okay well i mean there's a few things right of course i there's a few things right of course i there's a few things right of course i first and foremost supporting first and foremost supporting first and foremost supporting organizations that are doing the work i organizations that are doing the work i organizations that are doing the work i mean that is again you know we need mean that is again you know we need mean that is again you know we need resources to do the work and so that's resources to do the work and so that's resources to do the work and so that's you know first and foremost i will say you know first and foremost i will say you know first and foremost i will say that a lot of our work also hinges upon that a lot of our work also hinges upon in some places generating international in some places generating international in some places generating international you know interests and signature you know interests and signature you know interests and signature gathering i know people get petitioned gathering i know people get petitioned gathering i know people get petitioned for teens like oh my god another for teens like oh my god another for teens like oh my god another petition but i can tell you firsthand the power that some of these petitions have we just did a big petition hand over in indonesia that's also a place where we have a bill on the national agenda right now for consideration this legislative session which is incredible because that will be the first ever national not only ban on dog meat trade um in indonesia of all places which is hugely important just given the population the number of dogs we're talking one million dogs per year that are ending up in being slaughtered for meat um but it's so important you know to to get that kind of political attention and so i would say petitions certainly supporting you know rescues and i would say also when you're traveling you know when you're traveling let your hotel know or let your tour company know that this is not something you want because we know that tour companies also you know you don't want to see that like you don't you know that that's in your kind of frame of view because we know that tour companies also have contacts with their ministry of tourism in these different countries and they care about tourist dollars in many of these countries and so that's something else and i'd also say that be on the lookout some groups frequently bring dogs to the united states and canada for adoption for rescue and so that also could be an opportunity as well to to help out i have a china rescue my china yeah and uh she came here at one year of age and love her to pieces um her name was um ling ling or something like that i have her little china papers but yeah that's why i'm so passionate about it now as far as this country i was reading that you guys have black beauty ranch in texas duchess sanctuary in oregon and second chance refuge in liberia and i have to say i don't know where liberia is i'm sorry that's okay it's in it's in west africa and so thank you and that's the chimp one exactly yeah so that is a chimp rescue that you know chips were released that were part of long-term animal experimentation so they were used for medical testing and then they are now living out their life in liberia at our sanctuary so what were you doing in romania you when i emailed you you were yes yes you say is it top secret or no no no this isn't top secret so we're going to need you know most people will know if you've been pretty good if you've been to eastern europe if you've been to europe if you've been to the united states if you've been to the europe there is a huge overpopulation of of free roaming dogs uh and cats and you know particularly in bucharest but but throughout the country and romania unfortunately has a sad history of culling of catching and culling these dogs and really inhumane sheltering terrible sheltering and we know just time and time again that playbook doesn't work right um you will never shelter and euthanize enough dogs because there's a reason these dogs are breeding and on the streets and so we have to do things like increase veterinary capacity we have to get municipalities and municipalities not killing dogs right they need to invest in humane alternatives like spay neuter and so we have a couple mous with municipalities outside of bucharest to again engage in humane dog population management to show what a model could look like and then every year we also do a round table at the romanian parliament we invite municipalities municipal leaders from across the country to again learn how do you survey like how do you even know how many dogs you have we think that there's upwards of a million free roaming dogs out there and i think that's a lot but how do you do surveys how do you use technology how do you right like what does humane speeding or work and and look like and so we do a lot of training on um that type of thing but i also got to see dracula's castle as well in transylvania some good moments to all this too exactly all set exactly dr pollock did it shock you i mean like to see these diseases that we don't even know about in this country you know what i'm saying like like well pythiosis i mean in florida we know about pythiosis but you know i'm sure you see a lot of rabies yeah i mean rabies is definitely a big one that is always on our differential list for any animal with neurologic signs of kind of unknown origin for sure i mean i think we see a lot too of just diseases that we don't see a ton of nowadays because we've you know um really lower the prevalence because of vaccination i mean distemper that's a big one we saw so many dogs with distemper yes the real thing is that we don't challenge particularly i mean i can speak from you know a southeast asia perspective as well that you know particularly in buddhist cultures euthanasia is very taboo very very taboo and so how do you manage these animals that you know really have a poor quality of life are suffering particularly from just you know things like distemper or animals that are paralyzed that's really really challenging particularly in a shelter environment so a combination of challenges yes that reason actually this is a long time ago now but about seven years ago I co-authored and helped edit a book that was actually published by Wiley called Field Manual for Small Animal Medicine because I wanted to make a resource for veterinarians that were going into the field yeah you know had some basic treatment options or how to sterilize your instrument if you don't have an autoclave or what anesthetic protocols depending on where I am in the world so we're working on a second edition at the moment so stay tuned that's a great idea so many challenges so which countries are leading the way in animal welfare like who's doing better who's like the I will say you know who I think is a leader is I would say the UK and EU I think lead on a lot particularly in companion animals there was just a critical piece of legislation passed in the EU for traceability and registration I mean there is of course issues in easing the law but I think there's a lot of issues in easing the law but I think there's a lot of issues in easing the law but I think there's a lot of issues in easing the law but I think there's much and there's also you know very strict licensure considerations as well some countries in southeast asia you know lao cambodia myanmar if you wanted to practice you could practice as a foreign vet thailand you could not practice as a vet you would have to be under the strict supervision of a thai vet or you would have to be practicing in a management capacity so there's also licensure considerations as well wow so funny to me because i live in this small town where you pay eight dollars a year for your dog's license if they're neutered or you know if they're fixed and everyone does it because if you get caught without that you get like a big ticket a fine i know and so imagine like i'm in this little town in you know the east coast and like every july they put signs up time to register your dog yeah it's like a big deal for me and i just i'm sitting here going i've sweat over getting that eight dollar license every year so i don't get a ticket and they check if you know conversely to that i was very upset about morocco with with the world cup going to be there how they're like just killing all these street dogs so that they look better to the world oh god this is going on with that commonly associated with big international sporting groups and so we have tried for many years us in a coalition of other animal welfare groups to engage with feet fund to engage with local authorities in some time you know in some places we've been effective i can say we have been ineffective in morocco we have written open letter after open letter to different stakeholders offering support and they have just not been responsive and so unfortunately i mean the reality is we also and this is going to sound um you know uh maybe not overly optimistic but we have to prioritize resources in the places where there is you know appetite for change and willingness to engage and so you know we can only push so hard it's almost like you've got to put your battles you know what i'm saying yeah and i'm so glad you mentioned about signing petitions because i always wondered when i get these petitions online well you know if i don't donate to this and i sign the petition it really is it going to go through and yeah and it's good to know and i love the comment about tell your hotel tell the the travel agent because you're right a lot of a lot of those countries depend on tourism i mean not that florida is a country. But look at Florida. That's right. And it's a good example. And if people aren't coming there spending their money, that's not a good thing. So I love that suggestion. Exactly. And every country, again, is so different, right? And so some countries are very responsive to international pressure. Again, Indonesia, I think Bali, that's a good example. You know, you have Australian citizens speaking up. The Asian government is going to take notice, right? Vietnam, not so much. We have tried that for many years. We run a tourism campaign that, you know, you live and you learn, though, right? Thailand, very, very interested in tourism. And so that was one of the, also, I would say the motivating factors for, there was a big I Didn't Know campaign with Ricky Gervais and some other UK celebrities. Oh, wonderful. The attention of the Thai government and helped lead us down that road towards a ban of the dog meat trade in Thailand. Is it easy to get celebrities on board like Ricky Gervais? I was reading a couple other ones, too. But that, if you could get big names, that would be great. For sure. I mean, we, you know, have had some luck with that. I mean, I think Daniel Henning is a good example. He's a famous Korean American actor who has done work for us in Korea. I saw him on your YouTube video. Yes, he's featured there. And he's been an amazing activist and supporter for our work in Korea. I can't say it's been the easiest to get in-country, you know, again, because in many cases, this is a sensitive issue, or it's perceived as sensitive. And so there's often not a lot of interest in talent agencies to put your celebrities forward as a spokesperson for this cause. Can you share an inspiring animal rescue that you've been a part of? Oh, pick one. Well, yeah, I mean, there's so, there's so many. I mean, there's so many. There's so many. There's so many. There's so many. And it's hard to kind of choose. What I would say is one of the more memorable closures, because we do a lot of these models for change, right, in different countries. And there was, I would say, one of the most horrific, I mean, they're all horrific, right, in the real world, but there was a market in Indonesia, and they're known for, and they should call them extreme markets. And yes, they are extreme. And where I'm speaking specifically is in Indonesia. I'm speaking specifically is in the island of Sulawesi, and this particular market was actually on TripAdvisor. It was being advertised as a must-see, a top 10 must-see thing when you're a tourist in North Sulawesi. And it was, I mean, absolutely horrendous. And it was every type of animal, monkeys, bats, and snakes in different cages, live, open-air market. And there were cages of dogs and cats that were consistently being brought in. And they were being set on fire alive, essentially. Oh, my God. I would kill myself right there. I don't know how you do it. And the reason they do that is because it singes the fur off, so then, you know, you don't really have to prepare the carcass. You can just, I think what was really also really horrific about that, too, is it was people picking out the dog. Yeah, yeah. Torture this one. Yeah. It was horrible. The whole thing was horrible. Oh, my gosh. We did a campaign for years. I mean, years. We did campaigns. We got it pulled from TripAdvisor. I mean, we did everything. We did virtual reality. I mean, just imagine how horrific this was, filming all this, right, so that people could wear goggles in different parts of Indonesia to see the horror. We did, I mean, so many international petitions. But finally, finally, we were able to work with the market authorities and get it shut down in that market, which was amazing. And what we had to do, though, is we had to do essentially mini models for change with all of the slaughterhouses that were supplying these dogs. Wow. But it just, you know, it was one of those, you know, moments. Well, I would say that market just, it haunts me. I mean, just all the nightmares about that place. Yeah, I'm sure. And so finally, to be able to have that, you know, agreement at the mayor's office, a celebration, to get media there. Yeah. To rescue those final dogs, just to know that, like, that suffering was no longer going to happen. And those dogs later were sent to D.C. for rescue and adoption. So, you know, that's not an individual animal story because they were all so meaningful. Yeah. But that, just getting that shut down and knowing that wasn't allowed to happen anymore, I mean, I would say that was one of the highlights of my career. I can see why. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just, you know, it's just, you know, when people get into the governments of these countries, are you having more success with that or they just, it's just the traditions, they keep carrying it on? I'm not sure, I'm not sure how you approach, I'm sure the approach is different depending on the country and the situation. It is. Well, I'll say what is, yes and no, what is challenging in Asia is its deference to your elders, right? Yeah. So even if it's younger political figures, it can be challenging. I'll say one example where we had a lot of success was in Siem Reap, Cambodia. And this was a place where, I mean, there was just dog meat everywhere, everywhere, right outside the gates of Angkor Wat. And you think about Angkor Wat, this UNESCO World Heritage Site, people come. And what amazes me is that often the governments have no idea, like no idea. Really? No. And I think it's also like you sometimes don't know what's going on in your own community because you just, I don't know, maybe you just become blind to it. But if you drive back five, six years ago, if you would go around Angkor Wat at like six or seven in the morning, you'd see all these motorbikes driving around with cages on the back of them and often pots and pans. Because what happens is these traders go out and they trade unwanted dogs for pots and pans. So if you ever see that, that's what that is. And maybe you wouldn't know that, right? But then when you start looking for it, you'll see them everywhere. You'll see motorbikes with pots and pans and a cage on the back. And then they fill the cage up with dogs and they go back to a holding area. And so we. We spent months on the ground collecting investigative footage. And what was so great, I mean, Cambodian people are so lovely. Khmer people are so open and they were welcoming us into their, you know, their kitchen and their slaughterhouse because then it was, you know, normal, right? And so we collected so much footage and testimonials. And we did a big press trip where we had AFP with us and we did some global press releases. And then we brought it to the Siem Reap government. And I had all of these articles printed out from the, you know, the media agency in Sydney to the Chicago Sun-Times to, you know, all of these big name, you know, media agencies. I just put them down on the table and they had no idea. Like they had no idea that this was happening. And they certainly didn't know that there was like international outreach, you know, outrage about it. And they ended up passing a ban. So Siem Reap ended up passing a ban on the dog meat trade. And so, you know, those are the type of victories. Those are the type of victories that, you know, you keep going because you know change can happen. But you never know what's going to be the motivating factor, you know, for triggering that change. That's got to make it hard because you don't know how to approach, okay, do we approach it from this point, from the monetary point of view, or the cultural, or how horrible we are looking to the rest of the world? Yeah. You try to hit it from all angles is what, you know, try to generate public support. You engage with pet owners. I think that's the easiest. I think that's the easiest way to do it. animal welfare problem would you solve first? Oh gosh. That is a great question that probably requires a more nuanced response. But I would argue, are we talking about like any species or anything? Any species. Oh, I think that's easy for me. You know, that would be factory farming and farming. I mean, just the scale of suffering, 70 billion land animals every year are in horrific, inhumane confinement. Like that would hands down be the. And no one has a clue. Nobody. And including transportation of those animals. There's very few, if any, regulations. In this hot weather, these poor animals are, they're not. It's inhumane from start to finish. Yes. Thank you. It is. And you know what? I'll tell you, Catherine, when I was in vet school, I went to vet school at an older age. So I was always asking, well, why are we doing this? Instead when they told you to do something, I didn't do it. I asked about it. So I was, we had to go to the slaughterhouse. And I actually got in a fight with one of the workers there because the cow was downed and he kept using the electric plot project. And yeah, so I got in big trouble for that. And that was just a minuscule part of what I saw. I can't even imagine what's going on there. What we do, the practices, you know, that we do to farm animals, would land a small animal practitioner in jail. Yeah. I agree with you. Yeah. You would call the police if someone was doing, you know, docking, whatever, with no anesthesia, no local pain medicine. I mean, it's horrific. And, you know, and the positions that AVMA have been taking recently are equally concerning when they should be standing up for animals. Yeah. And I can go on and on about this, but it's a big issue. Before we wrap it up, I want to ask you, what's going on about dog fighting in the U.S.? Are you making any progress there? I would say that we absolutely are making progress. So we do have our animal rescue team as frequently on the ground. So the way that we work is we work with, you know, counties or, you know, officials when the capacity, when the case outsees their capacity, right? So if they don't have room for, I mean, let's say they're doing a hoarding case and it's 400 cats, okay, and their local shelter is a pole barn, and it holds, you know, a lot of animals. Right. So if they don't have room for that, it holds eight cats, right? So then we come in. Or when there's dog fighting cases, what we do is we help with the kind of forensic investigations, we help with the animal handling, and then we will take the dogs to our facility in Hagerstown in Maryland for rehabilitation and adoption. And it can be deceiving because we're busy. We are doing a lot of cases, particularly in states that have kind of a law enforcement division that is, you know, affiliated with, or focus on doing dog fighting and animal crimes. But what I think we're seeing is more activity because the sheriff association and because some of the local counties are more attuned and are actually responding, that they need more help. And so I don't think that dog fighting is increasing. In fact, I think it's decreasing. I think law enforcement is becoming more savvy and attuned to responding to those cases. So I would say we're making really good progress and coupled with legislation and state policy work, I think we're on a good path for ending dog fighting in the U.S. That's encouraging. It is. So you travel a lot. Do you have any pets? I do. Oh, what do you have? She's not here right now, but I do. I have two dogs from Thailand that, well, two dogs and a cat that I brought back with me from Southeast Asia. But it is challenging traveling a lot. Thank God I have an amazing, an amazing pet sitter. Did you get your two dogs as puppies or were they, like, my Gidget was a year old when I got her from China? Mine were juveniles for sure. One was paralyzed, like, hind leg paresis, maybe not total paralysis, hind leg paresis. And again, rabies always comes to mind. Yeah. And I thought, oh. Beautiful recovery. Maybe tick-borne, maybe tick-borne type of, yeah. Janet got, Janet, tell about how Libby was rescued. Oh, so Libby, Alice actually picked her out for me. She was in a puppy mill and escaped. I'm in Ohio here. You know what I'm going through. And she was young and she escaped and got hit by a car. And then the guy, the puppy mill guy called the rescue person that Alice is friends with, Sandy, and they were going to put her down. And Sandy's like, I'm on my way, on my way. And then an orthopedist, Dr. Bay, right? Day. Day, helped, fixed up Libby. And then she had a wonderful foster, Erin, who took care of her with two Goldens and I think three high school kids, right? And then we, we got, they were, they ended up, they were going to keep her, the fosters. And then we got the call that it was too much with their two Goldens and three kids. And we were like, we're on our way. So we drove like. Janet's in Connecticut and I'm in Ohio. So she didn't have hours. Erin's going to give her up. And you were going to give her up. You were at the movies, right? I never saw the end of that James Bond movie because we got, we had to leave. We got in the car and we drove, we did eight and a half hours. We're in Ohio for 45 minutes and got back in the car with this dog and drove back. So it was crazy. And she's the best thing in our family. She's, she's right here with me. She's my little partner in crime and she's a love and she's now five and the cats are six and we're working on a relationship. Oh, wow. Only taken five years, but that's okay. Well, the girl cat, the boy cat was just here screaming. And he's like, she's there and he's screaming. Yeah. So I have to ask you our guest question. Oh, okay. Oh, what do you want to ask it out? No, you're the, you're the good guest question asker. Well, we have actually have two. Oh, God. That's always bad when there's two. Oh, well, everyone, everyone asks. So what is, what would be your party entrance? Oh, that's a good question. Oh, my gosh. Oh, gosh. What's the second one? So I can think about that. No. You get one question. She typical like a doctor. So what's the other one? So I got you the other one. Can I choose? Yeah. What's the other one? We need multiple choice. What is our other one? I forgot what our other one is. Pet peeve. What's your pet peeve? Oh, your pet or human peeve. Your pet or human peeve. Pet or human peeve. And that can be in the United States. I've got a lot of human peeves. What, what was that second pet or human? What was that? Pet or human peeve. What pisses you off. Your pet peeve. What annoys you? Oh, my pet peeve. Oh, gosh. Pet peeve if I'm not holding the door open for somebody. That is my pet peeve. Oh, that is. That is annoying. It is so annoying. It doesn't take much. What is the face with that person? Like when you see him coming and you don't hold the door. Yeah. Yeah. I get you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Good answer. Right? I mean, that's just, you know, it's. We've had people who don't put their blinker on. Yeah. Yeah. That was a good one. I mean, that's a common Florida thing. I think. Oh, yeah. Mine is when the husband. And also common in Florida too, Catherine. I said to Mike, I've never seen someone make a right turn so slowly in my entire life. Wait. Mine is the husband that opens the refrigerator and goes, "Where's the ketchup?" No. Before they even open it. "Where's the ketchup?" And I swear to you, when we lived in California, we lived there for 12 years in the San Francisco area. Yeah. Yeah. And it's moving from New York where it's, you know, New York second. Yeah. Let's go, go, go, go, go. We move out there and the light would turn green. And I'm not exaggerating. And it was like, "I need to be one with the light, one with the gas pedal." And then they would go. Yeah. And we would be like. Let's go. Like one with the arrival destination. Oh. It made me. I think it was moving from the fast paced of the New York City to this like. Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, oh, my God, it made me nuts. It made both of us nuts. She didn't answer the party song. You didn't answer the party song? I might go with something like Eye of the Tiger, like a survivor. Yeah, let's do that. Hey, I just, this dates me, but I went to this little theater, Robbins Theater in Warren, Ohio. It's a little restored theater. And the person that, the group that did Eye of the Tiger and wrote that song was there with the Rascals, which was one of my favorite groups. Really? Yeah. So they did Eye of the Tiger, and he's probably like 83. That's the Rocky song. But he was actually very good. Yeah. Yeah, I know. That's where his claim to fame is. Oh, that's cool. That's very cool. This has been so enlightening, and I'm hoping our listeners have learned, I certainly have, a lot more about globally what goes on in these countries that we are just not aware of. It's amazing. It's a humane world for animals. And we'll post some video links. Absolutely. Yeah. Sign those petitions. If you can, please make a donation. We're not here to ask for that, but listen, we've got to shut some of this down. These are loving domestic animals that are being put through hell. And thank you, Dr. Pollack, for all you're doing, because you're living my dream. Yeah, I help skin and allergy cases, but you are boots on the ground with these animals that are being tortured, and I can't thank you enough. I could cry. Honest to God, when I watched that YouTube, and it's not a sad YouTube, I thought, I'm not going to be able to talk to her because this is. She had me watch it. it today too and i was like oh my god thank you for all you do let's be inspirational but thank y'all for having me and i appreciate the platform to talk about our work and again check out humane world for animals and yes and all you do thank you we appreciate you guys thank you so don't forget to tune into speaking of pets podcast send us your questions we love to hear from you at sop podcast.com yeah check out the show notes we'll have everything you want to know about dr pollock and all the links to um who she's her group and also the youtube videos and some really cool pictures that she sent us um it's just a lot of info at sop podcast.com thanks for listening bye for now bye this episode was brought to you by dr tim's pet food supplements veterinarian developed easy to use and built to support your pet exactly where they need it learn more at drtims.com until next time keep asking questions keep learning and keep loving your pets hey thanks for watching and listening we like likes don't forget to like share and subscribe you can follow us on social media at speaking of pets and give your pets a big kiss from the novotny sisters the speaking of pets podcast is an sla video production