HR Works Podcast: Deconstructing Belonging—Trust Is Key

Hello everyone. Welcome to the HRWorks podcast brought to you by HR Daily Advisor. I'm your host Bianca Herron, content manager here at HRDA. The HRWorks podcast provides clear, relevant, and actionable information on topics that matter to you, the HR professional. When you're on with the best practices and strategies to attract, retain, and engage top talent and delivering exceptional service to your organization, HR just works. Welcome back to HRWorks and our ongoing deconstructing DEIB series. Diversity, equity, and inclusion aren't just buzzwords anymore, they're battlegrounds. We're seeing them play out in boardrooms and on the news and it's leaving HR leaders wondering, how do we navigate this? Today we're cutting through the confusion with Amir Berger, a leading DEI expert and MSNBC contributor. Berger reminds us that DEI is not a trend, it's a necessity, and that now's not the time for half-measures, performative actions, or fluffy initiatives that don't move the needle forward. So what can HR leaders do? How can they build genuine belonging when the stakes are so high? Well, according to Berger, the first step is to get smart about it and listen in as we dive into how to reframe DEI as business resilience and risk mitigation, moving beyond defense to build for the future. As Berger emphasizes, employees expect their companies and leaders to stand firm and not backpedal. We'll learn how HR leaders can tell their teams, we're not here to play defense, we're here to build workplaces where everyone thrives, not just because it's trendy, but because it's good business and good for the humans that are entrusted for care. Let's get into it. Amir, welcome to the show. How are you? I'm doing well. Thanks for having me. It's always a pleasure to be with you in conversation. I appreciate that. And of course, you know, I feel the same. So we're just going to dive right into things. DEI is under disruption like never before. What can HR leaders do about it? And what do they tell their teams? You know, DEI is not a trend, and I think that it has become trendy over the last five years in particular. And I think what HR leaders as well as any kind of leader in an organization needs to remember is that DEI is a necessity. And, you know, if we could be real for a second, we're operating, like you said, in a climate where DEI really has become this political punching bag. And there was a C-suite survey from the littler law firm that actually just came out. And in that survey, what it showed is that 55 percent of executives are more worried about lawsuits and government enforcement actions post inauguration. And even still, 76 percent of corporations maintained or they actually increased their DEI commitments in the last year. And to me, that's a signal. It tells me something that fear is absolutely real in terms of what's going to happen in this climate. But so is the commitment, particularly for those leaders and those institutions that have been value aligned and understood DEI as something deeply tied to the values that they hold and have been espousing as companies and leaders for years. In terms of what HR leaders should do, stay the course is what I'm telling everyone, but also get smart about it, right? This is not the time for performative actions, allyship, or even fluffy initiatives that don't mean the needle. Leaders need to think about and reframe diversity, equity, and inclusion in terms of business resilience and also risk mitigation. Because at the end of the day, employee trust is currency. And the 2025 Edelman Trust Barometer is a great piece of data. And it tells us that business among the many institutions that the barometer studies is not the most trusted institution. And that happened back in 2020 when business surpassed nonprofit organizations and government and media. And the thing is, employees expect their companies and their leaders to stand firm, to not backpedal. And HR leaders should tell their teams, we're not here to play defense. We're here to build workplaces where everyone thrives. And we're not doing it because it's trendy. We're doing it because it's good business and it's good for the humans that are entrusted to our care. That was amazing. Amir, if I had pom poms, I'm telling you right now, I'm being the airway with them. We need to get to that. Every podcast, we're gonna have pom poms ready to go. I couldn't scribble fast enough. All of the quotes are amazing. But what I absolutely love the most is you bringing up fear. And for you to bring that up, and you already talked about remaining committed, but you said with that fear, I'm just gonna say, essentially, it's about moving forward. It's about moving forward and remaining committed. And I think that's something that we're forgetting about because we're fearful. And in the last deconstructing episode, the DEI leaders, she said the same thing, you know, the spirits paramount, but to your point, don't rush into anything because you could make costly mistakes and decisions. That's right. There's so much moving to action. And really, what we need to do is to take a wait and see approach. And I've been telling every institutional leader that I'm speaking to and working with in my DEI consulting work that executive orders, for example, which is where a lot of the chatter and fear mongering is coming from, executive orders are not legislation. And so there aren't any new regulations, there isn't any new or different compliance stuff yet. And the wait and see approach is really about what the legal counselors, what the warriors do get out, and let them interpret and then tell us what's actually mean, what are the acts of the past, and so important in this moment. Because here's the thing, administrations change every four years. And if we can take very lenient decisions about our values and the structure of our organizations and how we treat our people, every time a leader changes, I mean, we're going to get whipped back. And that's not me. That's not integrative. That's not values behind if we change with every time it blows. That is amazing. Now, you mentioned that employee trust is currency. When it comes to belonging, how does that play a role in employee trust? You know, it makes me think about the experience people have every day. And it also, I think it comes up to something I know we want to talk about today, sort of the difference between belonging and inclusion. And one of the ways that I think about it is, you know, inclusion, for example, is being hired for the job, right? You get in the door, you've proven your skills. To me, belonging is knowing that your ideas will be heard and that your contributions to the team and to the org will be valued, that your identity and all the dimensions, the layers of who you are will be respected without having to shrink yourself to fit in. And that's part of what helps to build trust. And I was talking to Dr. Kellerman, who's that better up, she's a friend, and we were having lunch one day and talking about trust. And one of the things we talked about is some amazing research about how trust is usually made up of two components, benevolence and competence and benevolence, meaning I believe that you, Bianca, if you were my leader, if you were my HR leader, my CEO, you care about me and you care about the things that I care about. Competence is that I believe that you as my leader or the organization, the institution I work for, has the ability to fulfill its commitments and to do what it says it's going to do. And for us to create an engendered trust from our employees and to create greater belonging, we have to underscore and think about how we build benevolence and competence and are constantly taking actions that underscore those two elements. Do I believe you care about me? And do I believe you have the ability to fulfill the commitments that you made that will help to create more belonging in our organizations. And I think it also helps to outline very clear steps that we can take as people leaders. Yes. And for some reason, community just kept popping up in my mind when you were speaking about that. Working organizations cultivate a strong sense of community where their employees feel connected and supported. Two words, trust and transparency. Right now, trust and leadership, it really is hanging by a thread. And Edelman Trust Barometer noted that trust in business leaders specifically has eroded significantly in the last year. And employees are so much more suspicious than they ever have been around this idea of being misled. So if leaders want to build a real community, they need to drop the corporate doublespeak and start having real, raw, honest conversations with their teams. And companies can't just throw, for example, an employee resource group pizza party and call it a day. There's so many pizza parties, ice cream chests, we have beer on tap. Those are nice things. They really are. But building community is so much more than that. Real community happens when employees see that their input is actually actually shaping policies, actually influencing decisions, and is driving meaningful change across the organization. And so three quick tips that come to my mind for our people leaders and HR leaders, let employees lead. Employee resource groups are great, but don't silo them. Empower them with a budget, with access to your leadership team, and with decision making power to actually change the culture of the organization. The second thing is prioritize that accessibility. If your best community building events happen after hours or are centered around drinking, for example, you're already excluding people. We have to rethink how we build community and make it accessible for more people. And the last thing that comes to my mind is show the receipts. If you say that you're committed to inclusion and belonging, prove it with transparent policies, with fair and consistent promotions, and with actual investments in your people, show those receipts. Wow, that's amazing. And it sounds like you just, and correct me if I'm wrong, but to me, it sounds like you just talked about some key drivers of employee belonging. Am I correct in that? Yes, absolutely. And there's so many more. There's so many more. Should I just keep going? Please do. I love it. I already mentioned earlier, cut through all of the fluff. Belonging isn't only about good intentions. It is about action, right? Action earns trust is something many business leaders have probably heard. And I keep going back to the trust parameter because I think trust is one of the things that's being significantly and highly eroded in this moment. We're all living right now. And the trust parameter found that a majority of people right now today have a moderate or high sense of grievance. What does that mean? It means that people believe that government and business specifically as institutions are making things for people's lives harder, that they are serving the few instead of the many, and that the economic systems in our country are rigged in favor of the wealthy. So people are experiencing grievance. And business I mentioned earlier is still the most trusted institution, but that trust is very, very fragile. Employees expect businesses to step up on societal issues like economic inequality, misinformation, mental health, well-being, but they're increasingly skeptical about whether those commitments that companies have made are real and are going to consistently be followed through on. And that's not just dissatisfaction. It's this very deep seated frustration that people and employees are feeling that is reshaping trust across our institutions. And so what actually drives employee belonging? There are four things that came to my mind. They trust their employer. So yes, business is the most trusted institution, but let's not get overconfident. Trust in employers is declining year over year, and employees are sick and tired of empty DEI statements. They want to see follow through action. Action earns trust. Take those actions, you promise, and show the impact, show the results of the action. On the second thing, employees need to see representation at all levels of the organization. The littler law firm, the survey they released, found that even as these DEI rollbacks are happening, the employee expectations haven't changed. So if they don't see talent being represented at diverse talent pools, and if those diverse talent pools of people aren't moving up in the organization, employees will move on because they don't feel that sense of belonging. On the third thing for me, we talked about this fear. People want to feel that they can speak up without fear, right? Psychological safety isn't a luxury in our organizations. It's the foundation of a deeply engaged workforce. If employees are afraid to challenge the status quo, or to give honest, specific, and integrative feedback, you don't have a thriving workplace. What you have is a compliance exercise, and people feel they have to just fall in line, comply, be silent about their critique, and just go along to get along. That doesn't create belonging. And the last thing for me is that employees need to feel that they are invested in. Everything from professional development, mentorship programs, sponsorship of executive leaders, speaking people's names in a room, promoting them up into opportunities, those things matter. Employees don't just want to be included. They want to be set up for success. And here's the other thing. Belonging isn't just about making a select few feel included. Belonging actually benefits everyone. And one of the things that I say a lot and talk a lot about is more curb cuts. And curb cuts are those little divots and cutouts at street corners. Sometimes they're yellow or gray, and they were originally designed for wheelchair users, actually. Students at Berkeley call themselves the rolling quads. And these curb cuts were put in so that they could experience the outside environment, just as everyone else could. But I guess what? Parents with strollers, travelers with rolling suitcases, bikers, delivery workers, and even someone scrolling on their phone, they all benefit from the existence of these curb cuts. And that's the power of inclusive design that helps create belonging. And it doesn't just stop there at those curb cuts that I talk about so often. It's text to speech, automatic doors, closed captioning systems. These are all innovations that were originally created for a specific group with a specific challenge or problem that have now improved access and usability for everyone. As you're walking outside, most people aren't thinking about the curb cuts and how they're benefiting their ability to experience the outdoors, but they're benefiting and they're having a good experience because of something that someone asked for, for a solution that created belonging for one group that now benefits all of us. And the work and diversity equity inclusion works the same. When we build workplaces where historically excluded groups or people at the margins, I say a lot, can thrive, we create environments that work better for everyone. And the best companies, the most values aligned companies understand that belonging isn't just about fixing inequities. It's about designing smarter, more human centered workplaces that consider specific and individual needs. And the companies that choose to get that, they're not just checking a DEI box, they're future proofing their culture, their talent pipeline, and their long-term relevance to the world and to their consumers. Amira, that is so rich. That is so rich. I love that. I love that. You mentioned psychological safety as well. And of course, I know that ties into that trust, which of course ties into that communication that you mentioned in that transparency. Culture is also a very big thing here in the world. And of course, culture I think has also had a reimagining, if you will, to the past few years. Is there anything more that you'd like to add on that with having that psychological safety in mind? Always. Let's see. What I would add here is that if employees don't feel safe or able to take risks to challenge ideas and to share their critiques or speak up, you've got a culture problem, not a talent problem. And one of the stories, I'll tell you a story. This is what I'll add that comes to my mind. So Richard Montañez, Richard started in the '70s as a janitor at Frito-Lay, Frito-Lay Pepsico, and he didn't just mock scores, though. He watched, he listened, and he thought like an owner, which is something their CEO used to say all the time. Every employee should be thinking like an owner, think like a CEO. And one day there was a batch of Cheetos that came out of machine without seasoning, and Richard had this idea. What if they were coated in bold flavors that he grew up with? He is a Mexican American, chili, lime, and lots of spices. And the system, right, the company where he worked in his role as a janitor, that system wasn't built for someone like Richard to innovate, to speak up, to have ideas, to contribute. He didn't have an MBA, right? He wasn't in the research and development department. And yet when he finally got the courage to call the CEO with his idea, instead of being shut down, he was given the chance to present and pitch his idea. And that moment of psychological safety, right, the ability to take a risk without fear of being dismissed, that's what gave us flaming hot Cheetos. And who hasn't had flaming hot Cheetos? Thank you, Richard. Thank you. And so HR leaders, every kind of leader, ask yourself, is your workplace set up to discover the next Richard Montañez, or are you keeping brilliance locked behind job titles and rules and fear of speaking up, right? And so that culture of psychological safety and of trust, we have to do more to create those so that we discover and open doors for the next Richard Montañez, for the next flaming hot Cheetos idea. And so I tell people at the time, I want us to ditch the open door policy, quote unquote. Instead, what I want you to do is to open your ears, right? Leaders need to actually listen, not just be available, right? Because I meant keep mentioning action or trust, you have to actually do something differently in order for our cultures to change and for people to feel that they can show up, speak up and be a part of changing the organization as well. So yeah, trust is currency, psychological safety, then is the the bank that holds it, right? You either invest in it, or you go bankrupt, and it really is as simple as that. I love that. I love that. And thank you for that Richard story. I'm definitely going to have to find somewhere to go thank him publicly, because that's my favorite. Yes, we do. We love them. Oh my goodness. You just said something that was completely amazing. Another gym, don't just have an open door policy, ditch those, but open up your ears for an HR leader who wants to do that but doesn't know how. What advice do you have for them to open up their ears? How do they do that? We have to get better about normalizing hard conversations, right? If employees and leaders are afraid to discuss the bias that they're seeing or experiencing, if they're afraid to discuss failure or a mistake they made, or if they're just afraid to discuss burnout and their exhaustion and the lack well being their feeling, we create these cultures of silence. And that can be really, really dangerous. We have to stop punishing mistakes. And I think HR leaders have a unique position to be a part of helping us to stop doing that. If people fear consequences for speaking up or for, you know, one small mistake, because the thing is, if you're a human in this world, you're going to make a mistake at work, at least, right? And people will keep their best ideas, but they'll also keep all of their concerns to themselves. If we have a culture of punishing mistakes, we have to make trust measurable. I think that's something that HR leaders can do to help people open up their ears and do more and take different action beyond just having an open door policy. Continuous feedback, whether those are pulse surveys, clear accountability mechanisms to really ensure that leaders are practicing what we preach and are modeling the behaviors that we have said are aligned to our values as a company. And as leaders, for sure, those are a couple of the things that come to my mind on, you know, opening up your ears, doing more than open door policy. It starts with creating the culture for open ears to be a not just accepted, but a celebrated way that we show up and operate with one another. It all ties back to belonging. It does. It absolutely does. That's the headline. It's all about belonging. It's all about belonging. I love that. I love that. Belonging isn't a new concept in the workplace, but I feel like the conversation about belonging has significantly increased over the past few years. Or at least for some HR leaders who are truly trying to put things into practice and do things different, it is new. And on the other side of that, there are organizations and people who may not see the benefits of belonging. What are the long term benefits of fostering a strong sense of belonging within the workplace? Well, I think the question that we have to ask ourselves is can we afford not to foster a strong sense of belonging in the workplace, right? And I love data. I go back to the data and let my decisions and the way I counsel companies in this space to be data informed. And the data tells us that companies with strong belonging cultures see higher retention. They see more and better, more interesting innovation. And they see better engagement of their workforce within the walls of the organization. Diverse teams outperform homogenous ones, but only when they feel included and safe. So that goes back to that idea of listening. We can have all of us at the table, but if you're still not listening to my voice in the room, that's still not helpful. So in addition to this theme of diverse, we're all at the table. Great. But are you actually listening to my ideas, to my words? Are you amplifying and asking me questions as much as you are, you know, the white guy colleague next to me. Distrust costs money. When employees don't trust leadership, productivity drops, attrition or turnover skyrockets, and your brand as an employer tanks. And I go back to that, that survey I mentioned, the littler survey from the law firm, it confirms that even in the face of all this legal and political headwinds that we're seeing and experiencing in this moment, 76% of companies are maintaining or increasing their DEI efforts because many have learned and know that it's not just a moral or a social issue. It's a business imperative. And at the end of the day, belonging isn't a nice to have, right? It's a need to have, it's a bottom line differentiator. So build a culture where people belong, they'll stay, they'll perform, and they'll advocate for your company. If you fail to do that, well, I hope that you enjoy the revolving door and hope it doesn't hit you on your way to the eventual empty parking lot of your now irrelevant company. Geez, I love that. Another great visual. I love the visuals. I love it. I do. It helps me understand things. So I try to do it for others. Thank you for that. Amira, but is there anything else that you like to add or talk about? Yes, I've always got more to say. What I'll add to close this out is I want leaders and institutions to stop making diversity, equity, and inclusion a crisis when it's actually an opportunity. We have a lot of political noise. We are seeing corporate rollbacks. We are seeing shareholder backlash and a whole lot of people waiting to see who blinks first. And the thing is, the companies that double down on trust, on inclusion, and on belonging right here, right now, they'll be the ones who win the future. So HR leaders, business executives, decision makers, are you building a company that thrives long term or are you just trying to survive the next news cycle, the next administration, the next trendy van wagon passing you by? Because your employees, your customers, and your bottom line are absolutely watching. So choose wisely. Thank you so much. I love that. Amira, I appreciate your time and I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. Always a pleasure. I love talking about this stuff and I just hope everything is always of use to the leaders out there who are really committed to these values of diversity, equity, and inclusion and to caring for the humans entrusted to their care because that's really how I think of employees. They're humans entrusted to our care and that's how we have to think about and move through our organizations and through the world. Absolutely. Absolutely. And to our audience, thank you so much for tuning in. Remember, you can always keep up with our latest episodes every Tuesday. Again, I'm Bianca Haren. I hope you found at least one gym in our conversation that works for you and your organization. Take care.