HR’s Moment of Truth: A Time to Lead

Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to the Miracast, the show that puts listeners on the fast track to leadership confidence. Now, this week's Miracast is very different and we think it's very special too. It's it's an old fashioned scoop or exclusive if you like. I'm joined by the three top leaders from the CIPD. For those that don't know, that's the Chartered Institute for Personnel and Development. It's the professional body for human resources and people development. I've got Neil Carberry, who, as we record this, takes over as chief executive later this month at a pivotal moment for both the organization and the profession that it represents. And we also have two others with a massively important role in shaping what comes next for HR, Chris Bones and Chloe Smith, chair and president of the CIPD, respectively. Yes, they're all packed into the same interview. And believe me, their observations are refreshingly frank and candid. Now, this is both professional and personal for me. Many moons ago, I edited HR magazine, and I've been attending CIPD events for nearly 25 years now. And I've watched the profession sometimes struggle to evolve over the years. And this makes Neil's arrival and bringing these three leaders together feel especially significant. Right now. HR is facing some fundamental questions about its purpose, its credibility and the value it brings to organisations. And at the same time, AI is transforming. Work productivity is an urgent economic challenge. Employment is changing and organisations are having to rethink the skills and capabilities that they need. So this really is a conversation not just about the future of an organization, the CIPD, but about the future of HR and the difference that it can make. And what followed was, I think, a remarkably candid discussion. As you'll hear, Neil, Chris and Chloe don't duck the criticism that has been directed at HR Far from it. But they also make a powerful case for the upside, for the possibilities, and why getting this next chapter right matters well beyond HR itself. And with so much changing around us, it seemed appropriate to begin by taking stock of exactly where the profession finds itself today. And so this is where I began. Here we go, the world of work. Speaker 2 Has changed dramatically over the last five years. AI, productivity, skill shortages, employment legislation, and the changing employee expectations have all put people, leadership, and organizational performance firmly on the board agenda. This podcast is all about looking ahead, but we kind of have to start with today really when talking about the HR journey. Speaker 1 If. Speaker 2 Each of you had one sentence to describe the state of the HR profession today. What would it be? I'll come to you first, Chris. Speaker 3 I'm going to to start by trying to reflect the external narrative, which is is not particularly confident or, or complementary, but I think it's, it's one we have to face into as we think about what needs to happen, where, where we need to go. So the the narrative really is a profession sort of verging on, on the irrelevance. Perhaps I'm confident maybe less than capable with very mixed view about its contribution to overall organizational performance and potentially A profession that is now over invested in versus other more productive parts of the organization. That might be unfair. It probably is an unfair characterization of some of the very best in our world. But it's a narrative we have to deal with. And unless we deal with it effectively, I think we're going to find there are ability as a profession to contribute to organizational performance and success is going to be undermined. Speaker 2 OK, that's a really interesting way to start. Chloe, how would you follow that up? Speaker 4 Well, I would build on Chris's themes there and talk about the fact that this is a vital moment for the profession and in the words of, for example, nurses, global talent trends, it's now or never for HR reinvention. The reason for that, I think comes actually particularly from one of the perspectives I bring to the CIPD, which is part of the public benefit. You know, why would a, why would a former Secretary of State be interested in supporting the CIPD on its journey? The answer to that is because it's economically essential. HR has such a role to play in what adds up to the national and indeed global economy. But to do that, we have to help the profession to take those steps. And I suspect that's what we'll spend some time talking about today. Speaker 2 OK. And Neil, Chloe and Chris have described the challenge very eloquently in that way. I mean, what's the opportunity that you see most clearly? Speaker 5 I think for us as a group of professional leaders, whether we're HR leaders in employers or we're inside the functions of the CIPD, you've heard I think from Chris and Chris put this in a speech recently really well about some of the challenges that the HR function is facing. But those are challenges that the HR function is facing. I think we've all worked and maybe at times have been the HR professional where the business looks them going on, they've actually moved us forward there. And that difference between what HR done well and done with professional rigour is by comparison to maybe that function where the focus is on process and the alignment to the needs of the employer. And that would be different in private sector from public sector from 3rd sector. Of course, that feels like where the gap has emerged. And I think the opportunity for us at the CIPD is to engage in leadership, not followership. Ultimately, this is what the CIPD is not is it is not a trade union for HR professionals. We do not have to defend everything that happens in the name of HR. In fact, that would be utterly the wrong thing for a professional body to do. What we need to do is be very clear about the absolute value of the profession and the profession done well. To Chris's point, I think a lot of that narrative that exists publicly is unfair, but we also need to acknowledge that there are bits of the function where it is actually reasonably fair. So as an organization, as a professional body is remembering we're a professional body, it's about being really clear on standards and what good looks like and encouraging not just professions and professionals to step up to those standards, as many, many do, but also reminding people outside the profession of what they should expect. And I think that's a massive opportunity because as Chloe said, there's a real moment here for HR where there is so much we could add value to if we get it right. Speaker 2 OK. And clearly what I'm getting from all three of you is, is that this moment really matters. I think let's start to think about what that moment looks like in terms of, you know, what it means for HR professionals. I mean, Neil, you, you spoke recently about going back to the CIP DS Royal Charter and, and the concept of public benefit. I mean, why did that become an important starting point for you? Speaker 5 I think first and foremost, I'm a great believer in the idea that institutions that have been around for a long time typically have at their heart a set of founding assumptions that have residual value. So when I was looking at taking the job, having conversations with Chris and the board and with Chloe, I went to, well, why have we got a royal charter? What does it say? And it's really clear that the, the CIPD exists to advance the science and the management of people to support productivity and performance in workplaces for the public benefit. Now, you can be quite lazy with the phrase public benefit because anything could be public benefit. But on the flip side of that, if you can't articulate a public benefit to what the profession does, you open yourself to exactly the sort of criticism that Chris has has already talked about. You know, it is the the fact that some people do not see fairly or unfairly the public benefit at the moment that is driving the narrative around the HR function. I think if we can articulate the public benefit in the right terms then that helps us demonstrate what we are doing within our employers. And for me, that feels really, really centrally about the bit that runs before public benefit in the Royal Charter, which is productivity and performance. Speaker 2 I mean, you've alluded to this yourself. I mean, public benefit does have a danger of sounding a little bit abstract as as a term. So when you say the CIPD needs to be clearer about that public benefit, are you saying it's also a way of making HR more confident about its role in the organization and about its economic role as well? Speaker 5 Yeah, leadership is the thing that think about the currency of the mid 21st century. We've, we can see in every aspect of our lives that content is not the problem. We can produce tons of content. The currency is trust. And therefore as HR leaders in our businesses, in our public sector employers, wherever we are, high trust relationships with the employer matter incredibly. And that requires professionalism and diligence on our part. And it requires leadership. It requires leadership from HR professionals inside businesses. It also requires us as a professional body to demonstrate leadership and be willing to say some things, which from time to time may upset some people, but they're they're not based on a political position. We're in apolitical organization. They're based on what the research tells us. Being willing to take that stand feels very important. One of the things I said to it wasn't actually to Chris, it was to other board directors when I was being interviewed is, you know, we have built over many years the standing of the REC where where I've been for the last eight years on a single statement. The REC always has a view on the things which are within our bailiwick, not the things outside our articles of association, but the things within. We always have a view and we are always willing to communicate that view. And I think it's really important that the CIPD does that too. Speaker 2 OK, that sounds great the way you've, you've so put it there. Let's put ourselves in the shoes of the members though, and Chloe, you'll have a unique perspective on this as president of the CIPDI. Mean, what are members thinking? What are they feeling? Are they sensing excitement, anxiety, frustration, all of the above. I'm just interested in that perspective. So it's one thing the three of you sort of articulating a vision for a profession. But but let's go to the members. What are they thinking? Speaker 4 I think I would build on Neil's point in, in two halves. And this reflects actually the span of our membership, you know, which is everybody, everybody from the earliest entrant to an HR career all the way through to to ACPO or Chr or indeed CEO in the case of Neil himself, which is excellent. I think we see first of all, we see some clear insight coming through from our own in house membership survey. You know, for example, we see that practical tools were one of the best rated benefits in the membership package, you know, and that's from our, our membership survey work last year. Therefore, you know, we've got this quite clear focus on performance, productivity, solving real world HR problems in the package that we're we're providing to members. But Neil is is absolutely correct that it's not just about such content, it's about trust. And why is that? It's because actually we need to focus and reinforce on the value of professionalism in a changing world. And here's the second one, the extent of that world's change that's going on. If I zoom right up to the other end of the scale and I say, what are we hearing from, you know, CP OS both in the UK and indeed around the world? I mean, for example, you know, the World Economic Forum does surveys on this and explains very, very clearly that there's an increasingly strategic role for the people function in shaping organizational resilience. And that is recognized in that global community. And that's taking place amidst some of the the most extreme Geo economic and geopolitical tensions, volatility, technology trends. So there's a lot of change on people's minds, whether you're one of the most senior members or one of the most junior members of that profession. One thing we hear loud and clear from members and HR professionals is that we can be supporting them in that kind of challenge. Speaker 2 Chris, I mean, in, in a recent talk that you gave, you described HR as the designer of the engine of organizational performance. I mean, how is it resonating outside the profession? I mean, we, I've often written or or read articles saying HR it's time for HR to step up. But is has the message landed in any sense outside of the profession? Speaker 3 Best day child functions are absolutely seen as the designers of organizational performance. So what I mean by that at our best we understand the business or the service or the third sector organization in its activity. We understand that better you know as well as anybody else in the business, you know. And so we understand the business model, we understand the market, we understand how the product or service is developed, delivered, where the value is added. And because we understand that what we're capable of doing is bringing our perspective of how do you therefore organize people to be their most productive such that you are more likely to deliver the long term strategic goals, set promise to stay, make holders, shareholders, whoever. We know how to do that, whether it's target operating models, whether it's process definition, whether it's workforce planning, whether it's role design. And then we're really able to sit and partner line leaders in populating those structures and those processes with the right sort of capabilities and the right culture and the right capacity. We know roughly how many people it would take to do X&Y. That's HR at its best. And if you talk to leaders with world class HR organizations, they will they will describe it as fundamental to driving productivity and performance. The challenge is that for a chunk of organizations, it is quite clear that their line leaders do not see that value. And you can hear that being articulated. You know, at its most extreme, there are, you know, people like Octopus is so we don't have a an HR function anymore. Actually, I think when you look at what Octopus do is they do have great HR that they're just having it is being delivered in a way that that's different and very much suits their business need. But the capabilities I've just described, the insight and the understanding are essential. And I think why Chloe was saying this is a pivot point is either we confidently move back into that space and define what good looks like for everybody in the function. And to Neil's point, we set the standard and we say that is the standard anyone who calls themselves an HR professional needs to needs to make. And we create confidently our role and we create that expectation with late leaders from across all parts of the economy that that's all or we don't. And by the way, that role will be taken on by other functions. The IT because of the rise of AI, be it finance because of the importance of productivity, be it sales and marketing, because of the importance of growth, the activity is required. Speaker 2 It leads me to a point, and you've made a convincing case, all three of you, for why this moment matters. If we'd gone back 10 years ago and I was doing the same interview about why this moment matters. What? Why does this moment matter more now? Is it because of the technology? Is it because of some of the things you've just been talking about, Chris, about how things are landing outside? Neil, I'll come to you on this one. Is that it's not just why does it matter? Yeah, I think we'd all agree it does matter and it should be mattering more. But why more now? Is there a perfect storm going on that's unique? Speaker 5 I'm always resistant to to easy phrases, but pretty close to, I mean, if you think of where we are now, I think understanding risk appetite in business is the defining factor of certainly corporate leadership at the moment. We come out of, you said 10 years ago, we've come out of a period between 2008 and 2022 basically where money was next to free. The economy grew not brilliantly but reasonably well every year. There was a sort of a zeitgeist in corporate leadership of managerialism and when we look at that, some of the things that happened in our function, that's where we we may be having been quite self analytical so far. Let's analyse our relationship with the Light. We've also been in a position where a lot of the work of line management has been shuffled off to HR and that's because organization design work, organizational thinking has not been happening at the right level within businesses. So I mean, Chris, Medicines, Octopus, you could say the same with Bolt where you've got chief exec who says we're not going to have HR and then you look at what they're doing and actually they are heading for quite a robust and strategic approach to human resources. So I think there's a change in business that's facing not a uniquely riskful environment, but just a return to risk being on the agenda. Then you align that with the technological change that's coming and we all know the line between labour and capital will shift. It's been delightful to see the West Coast tech balls all realize that they were wrong about the end of jobs over the last 12 months. I think those of us in HR always knew they were wrong. But we we see the the mass transitional challenge that that brings rather than the existential challenge that maybe was taught up a couple of years ago. And then you can't ignore the demographics. The truth is the baby boomers are now largely retired or retiring and they're being replaced by smaller generations and those smaller generations. And look at the attention Andy Burners put on the youth unemployment since he was appointed. Those smaller generations are having more difficult pathways into the workplace. So if you think of a typical organization as being, have we got the finances and the people right for where we are now? Everything is changing on our feet and that's why I think it's different now to 10 years ago. Speaker 2 OK. And I think, you know, in terms of an articulation of the problem, that's one thing I guess we have to talk about. Well, what has to change for these for this to happen, seeing as you mentioned sort of technology a fair bit in that last answer. Chloe, I'm going to come to you on on this bit. From what you're saying, how should HR help organizations make the most of technology while keeping people performance and and good work? I'm at its center. Speaker 4 I think there's at least three particular categories here. And this really builds on the points Neil has just been making, because one of the reasons why this moment matters is that we're also looking at a type of technology that is democratically widespread, widespread, or if you like, more widely owned and used than prior industrial revolution, the revolution tools would have been. So what does that mean inside an organization? I think it's three things. I think first of all, there's a practical ownership point. I think CPO's can and should lead technology transformation because it's now overwhelmingly about adoption by the workforce and about learning and development. It should not be left to the CIO and there should not be either ignorance or artificial barriers in in the way of what CPO can and should do. Secondly, I think nailing governance, if you look at that democratic point that I just made, I mean focusing only on employees appetites, you've actually got to deal with the challenges of shadow AI. That's something that's been a big theme in the CIP DS labour market outlook data. Secondly, you want to be able to be the engine of the designer of the engine of performance, as Chris has said. And so if you get governance right, you can enable enterprise productivity and ROI from investment. And thirdly, focusing on the HR function itself, the governance maturity really matters actually on HR AI investment and that's also a vital thing. And then bringing all that together, the, the final bucket I would talk about here is, and again, it's builds on Neil's earlier point. This is not just about ownership, but it's about visionary leadership. Our research CIPD says that 45% of organisations are still at the experimental stage with AI. So the open goal is to move your organization to a strategic, intentional, productive space. And in my view, this particularly engages HR through strategic workforce planning as well as the governance and training points that I that I make earlier. Speaker 2 OK, So this intentional aspect you're talking about here, I mean, it reminds me of something that Chris said in a recent keynote that he gave where he said kept coming back and saying this sits with HR. And I know we're asking HR more than ever before to do things, but what about HR itself? I mean, in terms of the way you just described it, Chloe, surely HR just needs to be a bit braver and saying, yes, this is ours, Chris, what would you, what would you say? That's one thing to say this sits with HR, but is there a sort of need for an injection of bravery into the profession in that sense? Speaker 3 I think the best HR people are some of the bravest people in organizations today, and they have been in the last sort of 35, nearly 40 years I've been in in work. I think brave HR people are the people who have made the difference time and time again to organizations, to organization performance and effectiveness, occasionally to the organization's moral compass, to really distinctive and highly challenging moments that mattered in organizations where lines were drawn, people were challenged, cultures were changed. And I've always rolled my eyes that, you know, HR needs a seat to the table conversations, because I think HR got a seat to the table when it was brave, when it was good and when it was effective and when it understood the business and when it had business capability, business skills and capability. And I mean that in terms of understanding the business of health delivery just as much as the business of producing chocolate or alcohol or oil, which is my background. So it's bravery and courage and bravery and courage come, I think from people who are really certain that they have insight, capability and expertise that is going to add value. And where I think we've as the CIPD. And the challenge for Neil and his executive colleagues, you know, backed by us, at the board, by Chloe, is I think to move from what I think has sort of unintentionally become a, a bit more of a, a bit too humble a way of thinking about if you look at our profession map and a bit too sort of overly detailed and specific. Because we think if we we are that, then people will be more confident to something that is a far more assertive statement of what it takes to deliver organization, performance and productivity in the modern age where the environment in which we are all working is changing so rapidly that, you know, what was true two months ago may not be true today. I mean, it's not just technology. So I think you're really looking now for the CIPD to shift, I think, onto the front foot, to articulate. This is the stance that HR professionals need to take. This is how they should be judged. And these are the measures that you should look. And to be slightly provocative, I think, you know, we're not here to be judged by what we do on Wellness or, you know, inclusion or diversity or anything else. These are good things that they are outcomes that come with success. They are activities that might drive engagement in organizations to deliver success. But actually, we shouldn't be judged by the peripheral. We need to be judged by the core. And the core is, is this organization getting more productive? Is it performing better, and is it able to get closer to delivering its strategic goals and ambitions? Those are the sorts of key performance indicators that HR functions should be grabbing hold of today. Speaker 2 OK, brilliant. I mean, Neil, what Chris is talking about there, I mean we're talking about productivity, we're talking about performance. Some of the things you mentioned earlier on in the conversation and you've spoken about HR solving business problems rather than just HR problems. But to the HR listener, or indeed any listener who is is working on a day-to-day basis with HR mean, is there a good example of a difference between solving an HR problem and solving a business problem just to make it sort of nuts and bolts and clear for the listener? Speaker 5 So an HR problem might be, here's a change in the law. For instance, let's take a fairly basic compliance question. Here's a change in the law. We need to comply with this law. Here are the processes we'll put in place to comply with this law. Alternatively, you might say here's a change in the law which change the environment in which our workforce is operating. What are the options we have and why might a pure compliance approach be the right one as opposed to something rather different? Most, I mean, I'm an ER guy. The most obvious example right now is the current government in the United Kingdom is clearly trying to revivify trade unions in the private sector. The discussion which you might have there is well what would we do if a union asked for access and how would we manage it? That's quite reactive. Or you might go the other way and say, well what's our attitude to collective voice? Because there are many ways in which collect. We've proved over the last four or five years that collective voice thinking is actually important. Most obvious collective issue for me is hybrid working where what individual people want with their nice offices at home as senior members of staff where they can see the garden and they can get lots of that linear work done that you get done at home. Might not be what you, the younger demographic in your workforce needs in terms of support and and structure. But that's a collective discussion, not an individual discussion. So you might say with looking at the way the trade union law is moving, we'll say, well, we can see that law is moving. But actually let's have a discussion about us and what we need as a business and what our attitude to collective voices, what our attitude to trade unions is and what the most productive and most effective thing for us to do would be. And then in that context, having done that high trust, high added value business discussion, we will design our compliance with the law in the context of our direction of travel. And for me, that's the the thing because chief execs and the line leadership of organisations are always going to view the law has changed and therefore we must do X as a hygiene factor. Whereas look, the law is changing. We need to be aware of it. But actually these are the issues for our business and you can see them too. So let's map these two. That's an OD discussion that is more relevant to the business and we'll throw up different discussions and different issues. And that's where I think that bit of that confidence. So that kind of the reach out from HR becomes we need to think about this because things are changing around us. Here's my take. Should we got some time to to scope out is always going to be more and I I like Chris, think you get the seat at the table by demonstrating the value is always going to be more likely to access the the seat at the table. Then here are some things we now need to comply with and I think that's the transition. Speaker 2 OK, so, so far we've talked about why this moment matters, what needs to change in the profession. Let's talk about the profession itself now and we'll stick with you, Neil, on this one because you're, you're coming in as CEO and, and, and I was wondering if the CIPD membership, you could paint a vision of what that means. I mean, you've said the CIPD membership has to quote mean something, but what should it mean to an individual member and, and, and what would that say to an employer? Speaker 5 So the first and most important thing is the great joy of leading any professional body membership organization is the shareholders and the customers are the same people. And I think it's really important that we acknowledge as leaders of the CIPD that we hold this fabulous organization in trust for the profession. And acknowledging that is about saying that our job is to navigate this ship in the best possible way to support the profession that the Royal Charter identifies in which members have qualified into. I think two things in terms of member experience. 1 is what I call the Monday morning, which is I think in a membership organization of any nature now value really matters and value should be defined as when was the last time I picked something up from the CIPD that really changed what I did in a week at work. And, and Chloe mentioned earlier how the practical tools that the CIPD supply score really well in the membership service. So there's a whole piece there about is there instrumentality to what the CIPD is doing for members. Part of that is also then acknowledging that not all CIPD members are the same. You've got newly qualifying people, you've got people are leading important functions, maybe they're Ren and Ben specialists who need a certain form of interaction with the CIPD. And then you've got Cpos who are leading multi multi million, multi billion home businesses. So understanding that around that core aim there might be different flavours of how people interact with the CIPD feels incredibly important, especially as an international organization where culturally how we work in KSA might be very different to how we work in the United Kingdom. But again, are always around that kernel of a really strong focus on the standards and and doing things the right way. Then the second bit I think is we've got to have high trusted members. So when we offer advice, when we take your view, we have to be really clear. We have to be based on the best research. And I think what members should expect is to experience ACIPD that is practitioner LED but research informed and always that way around can't afford to live in our ivory tower. We have to walk by the side of Members in the issues that facing day-to-day. Speaker 2 Let's look at it from the point of view of somebody coming into the profession, Chloe. How do we build a profession that talented people actively want to join and stay in? Speaker 4 This is a really critical question actually. And in fact, it's one of the first that we were asked when we were when Neil and I were on stage at the Festival of Work conference earlier this summer. And I and I think the ingredients of the answer and, and Neil of course very much said this a time and, and will say it again. You know, it's a combination of this strategic potential that we've spoken about. So for many people that will be a motivator that will be an incentive that will be meaningful in the kind of work that they want to do in their in their career. We then need to provide the tools for people to be able to deliver on that type of promise and and motivation in their own career. I think then we're talking about setting high standards and expecting professionalism because talented people actively want to stay in a career that validates them and shows them or gives them the ability to show others actually why they are great in, in their career. And then I think finally, it's something about providing the benefits that we've spoken about in our membership package, but a great network more than that through our organization. You know, that's the sort of the cherry on top. I think in a way that that CIPD can can offer talented people want to be able to be in the company of other talented motivated contributing people and and we can offer that through CIPD. Speaker 2 And is that the key to it then the, the way you're describing it sounds quite different from you know, maybe how the benefits of CIPD membership were, were sort of marketed before. I mean, does does the CIPD need to market itself present itself differently to this next generation coming in versus all, all the generations that have come before? Speaker 4 Yes, I think so. I mean, I'll look, I'll, I'll say this and I think the others will probably want to come in on this. But I think you're seeing a moment to change from CIPD. You know, what we have provided in prior decades, you know, was a great foundation. But the times are changing and we will be providing different things. And that that's I think one of the things you'll see in this autumn as, as Neil takes the reins, you. Speaker 2 See, I there's a reason. Yes, yes, please do. Speaker 3 Because we talk about professions and we talk about a function and I and and we're using these two words quite deliberately. So let's try and tease that out a bit in our thinking. We are now differentiating between the HR function writ large, many of whom may be members or may have been members of the CIPD. Many may hold a qualification from us, but I wouldn't necessarily say they're professionals. I think there's a definition of professional and there's been this big narrative in the sort of public discourse on HR. Is a is HR really a profession? And that's a fair challenge. I think at the minute 1 is because there's no license to practice. It's unlike accountants or lawyers, you know, you, you don't need a qualification to be in the function. And I've, you know, I've met some extraordinary talented HR people who do not hold the qualification and are not members of CIPD. So there's something about we don't have that license to practice that is normally associated with what is a profession. And when people talk about the professions, HR is not in that instinctive small list of bankers, lawyers, doctors, accountants, whatever. So I think it's important for us that we understand what a professional is and the business leaders understand what a professional is and a professional is. I think someone doesn't just hold a qualification, but is a paid up member of a professional body where they are publicly committing to standards of practice that are both relevant and research LED as effective. So they do not do things in their businesses or in their public sector organizations which have proven to be ineffective. So we need to start to be much more assertive about what good practice looks like and say to people, if you're a member of the CIPD, you're joining a club of people who commit to delivering good practice, commit to a conduct a set of conduct standards in in your life as a professional and are willing to be held to account. That's what an HR, the HR profession needs to be. And I think what Chloe's talking about is I think young people would want to join that because it feels like sort of standards and practice and professionalism that I'm looking forward to build a career on. It's not just joining any old part of the organization. Speaker 2 OK, so are you saying then that this is the sort of thing that would make ACEO actively prefer ACIPD qualified practitioner? I remember that many years ago. You and I have discussed this before. When there were things like the FTSE 100, HR 100 club and actually when you polled all those members, very few of them had CIPD qualifications. This was like sort of 20 years ago. So I don't want to put words into your math, but you're basically saying the purpose of CIPD qualifications then is to address these kind of bigger, wider general business issues that would make a CEO actively look with the qualification. So if you. Speaker 3 Think about the public good part of our charter. It's to improve and enhance the arts and science and the management of people and organizations, and that is a delivery of the public good. If you do that brilliantly, you will have organizations that are diverse. You'll have organizations that are inclusive. You'll have organizations that pay the maximum possible corporation tax and employ people who then pay their tax and put their money back into generating effective public services. That's what you do. So we all want to see that the question is what are the standards and what are the practices, and how do you challenge people when they're not doing that and how to hold them to account? That's what a profession does. It says this is the standard that isn't, and if you don't make the standard, you cannot be in the profession. So I think part of the confidence that you talked about with us right at the beginning of this podcast is US actually setting standards and holding members to account for their performance against the standards. Speaker 2 OK, that's very clear. And, and, and thank you all of you for your answers in that section, which I know the listeners will be very interested. I want to look ahead now. And Neil, you're coming in end of next month. I think you're taking over the role of sort of CEO. You know, recent political leaders took office. You know, they would say they wanted people to feel differently, they wanted to experience things differently. And but I mean, what do you most hope members will experience differently because of the CIPD over the next next few years? I mean, what will feel different to them? Speaker 5 First and foremost, members ought to feel that the communications of the CIPD speak more directly to the challenges that they are facing day-to-day and the stage of career that they are in and more practically now that will take time to deliver. You know, one of the things that is very apparent to me is, you know, the answer to this is not a kind of a spiky new brand and some better marketing. You know, I'm sure that kind of there's plenty of mark ONS work that we can do that will help the CIPD get its message across better. But fundamentally, the question that you've heard Chloe and me and Chris speak to throughout this chat is about picking the things where the CIPD really needs to walk beside members over the next few years and to be completely honest with you, being willing to pick a smaller number of them than might feel comfortable. I've been working in membership organisations for well over 20 years now and the truth is that you can quite easily spread yourself a mile wide in an inch thick. So you end up with a conversation that says, well, I know you do everything, but what do you actually do? So I think being really clear and open about the areas where the CIPD will invest, where the CIPD will uniquely be able to support professionals in the sector. And as Chris has said earlier, to set standards and hold people to account, that thing is the single bit of work for this autumn that we'll be working with the the CIPD staff team on. I had a chance to get into the modern and see them all last month for what was a really positive discussion because they too are keen to see the organization be as relevant as possible to this kind of turning point moment we're currently in. So I think there's a real opportunity. I occasionally get myself into trouble by saying that I can't promise the profession that I'll give them everything that we're trying to build for Christmas in 2026. But I think it would be unrealistic to promise anything else. But let's start with purpose and focus of the organization. I think when people come to the annual conference in November, they should expect to hear a message that is coherent and focused on where we are going, even if it takes 123 more years to deliver everything that we want, that we want to do. First and foremost, though, it's this professional focus and it's walking past by the side of members, as they are. We talked about bravery, Courage. It's not bravery and courage if you have the skill set. Brain surgeons are laudable people, but it is not courage that makes them effective brain surgeons. It's skills and our job is to support the profession to walk in to organizations as the brain surgeon walks into the theatre and rest on the professional knowledge and the professional standing to bring things to discussions with the line that enable the line to in partnership, make really positive decisions for the country. Speaker 2 OK, And that's really helpful understanding how people would feel differently, you know, being members of the CIPD. Let's let's step outside the profession at the moment. And Chloe, you use this phrase sort of economically essential earlier in the discussion and let's talk about the outside perceptions. Why? Why do you think then as we kind of near the end of this is it is important HR is understood not just as the people, people but central to productivity, performance, the wider economy and so on? Speaker 4 The key point on this really lies in technology transformation that is going on around us and throughout the economy. And and from that, the point is just that the size of the prize is so large. In government circles, it's recognised that AI adoption could grow the economy by an additional hundreds of billions of pounds through enhancing innovation and productivity in the workplace. The mandate here could not be larger. If you want to look at that free skilling and upscaling, you know, there are estimates that 60% of the global workforce will need upscaling or rescaling, you know, in the next couple of years. This is enormous. So to unlock that, we need HR to perform at its best, enabling its organisations to perform, enabling the UK and other economies to perform, enabling people to prosper. And what we at CIPD can do is walk by the side of members on that journey. Speaker 2 Great. And and Chris, what you ended your keynote a few months ago by saying that the choices you make to find the legacy, your legacy looking at, I mean, what choices does the profession need to make right now? Speaker 3 I think there are probably 3 bigger choices that anyone who thinks would define themselves as an HR professional might want to sort of do the look in the mirror for and go, am I? Have I made that choice? Is it clear about the choice? The first thing is I think to be the equal expert in the room about how we do things and how we generate value in the organization that employs me. Do I really get this and am I completely fluent in what it is we do? And therefore, I can see the opportunities and help the business understand the opportunities as the technology challenge that Chloe talked about comes in as they look to exploit it both internally and and to fight potentially competitive threats from it. I think the second choice is to look very, very carefully at the activities that they have been promoting across their organizations as things that are good for organizational performance and success and not perhaps measure them by the goodness index, but to start to measure them by the effectiveness index. So is what we're investing in and what we've we're putting shareholder or public funds against, are they really making a difference to organizational performance and success? And can I show that in measurement terms? I think the third choice is a bit about personal development. So if I want to be a modern professional then whilst I perhaps accept this is going to be a bit of a leap of faith in the 1st 12 or 18 months, if I haven't had my CIPD membership active for a few years, this might be the time to come back and join And join what is clearly led by Neil and the team going to be a radical reset of what good looks like, what standards look like and what the sort of products and services that HR people need to go forward in a modern organization. So have a bigger critic you are, this is the moment you could influence that debate the most by coming back in and making sure you're heard. Because by doing that, you'll make sure that Neil and his team will get closer to delivering you the sort of professional network tools, support and skills development. They're going to add real value, whether you're a chief people officer, a head of remuneration benefits, a training officer or an HR business partner at the the sharp end of production or service delivery. That's a tough ask. It's a sort of trust us moment, but if you like what you've heard then come and put a year's Subs in and you could be part of the change. Speaker 2 OK. And if I was an HR professional or a wannabe HR professional or somebody outside the profession who's thinking, oh, good, things might be changing, I'll be feeling very excited, but I also might be feeling slightly overwhelmed. There's a lot in there. And what you've said, I mean, I'm going to ask a closing question there, which will maybe might help to reduce things down a little bit. And I'll, and I'll start with Chloe and Chris, but I want the final word to be with Neil on this one is, is that if there's one capability that every HR leader should be investing in today to prepare for the future, what, what would it be and why? I'll start with you, Chloe. Speaker 4 Well, I've already touched on strategic workforce planning which I think is a pretty high contender, but I would also throw in people analytics. So I think the ability to make data-driven decisions will set every HR professional in great stead. Speaker 2 OK. That's great, Chris. Speaker 3 Make sure you've absolutely honed up and nailed your business skills. So can you read AP and L? Can you read a management set of accounts? Can you read a balance sheet? Do you understand how business investment decisions are taken? Just make sure you understand the mechanics of what you're in. And the second would be if you don't have an AI account and you're not playing with it and understanding with it and understanding it and engaging it, start now. Speaker 2 OK. And Neil, it's your gig from next month. So what would you be your final word? Speaker 5 One of the under commented bits about my appointment is they've let an employment relations guy run the CIPD, which is probably a giveaway that I I believe the role of the professional is to have a set of tools which are universal, but to apply them in unique environmental environments in ways that are relevant to that individual business. So couldn't agree more what Chris said about it's a commercial ability or understanding, but what are we trying to achieve and building everything back from there. And that's not to turn our back on important work on things like inclusion and diversity, but actually they are, they are both outputs and enablers of making decisions about what drives a business for forward with productivity and performance. Agree on the technology, but I for me, understanding AI is embedded in understanding where your employer is. Because in every business in the world, the line between labour and capital is going to change. And the risk if we don't get it right is you are starting to see other functions deliver people who are into leadership roles in the people function, whether that is chiefs of staff or whether it's people coming even from the technology side. So that feels incredibly important to me as almost pitching our tent as a profession on the ground of there are some core skills here that if we do not apply correctly in the unique environment that this organization faces, we will find ourselves in productivity, in trouble. And, you know, you look at the work that's been done over years on, let's be parochial for a second, the United Kingdom's long tail of low productivity. And it is almost entirely about how people are managed. And therefore, there is a huge opportunity if we get this right. And getting it right involves having the right tools in our toolbox. And if that isn't the job for the CIPDI, don't know what is. Absolutely echo what Chris has said. The way to make change and make as effective is to come and join us on the journey. Speaker 1 And that's where we left it with Neil, Chris, and Chloe. I think that final invitation from Neil Carberry captures something really, really important about this whole conversation. We're right at the beginning of what will be a significant period of change, with HR professionals themselves having a massive part to play in shaping it Now. What particularly interested me was hearing Neil begin to set out the direction he wants the CIPD to travel, while Chris and Chloe brought their perspectives as chair and president respectively, to both the scale of the challenge and the opportunity ahead. And I think there was a real willingness, very refreshing from all three, to be challenging and to be challenged. Chris's opening assessment of the external narrative around HR was uncomfortable for the profession and and deliberately so. But running through the conversation was a determination to answer answer that criticism by putting productivity, performance, and organizational effectiveness much more firmly at the heart of what great HR looks like. I was struck to by close description of this is a vital moment for the profession. She talked about AI changing workforce demographic skills, productivity, and economic uncertainty. These aren't simple issues for HR to respond to, and the argument here is that they create an opportunity for the profession to lead. And one of Neil's ideas that stayed with me was his Monday morning test. Whether being part of the CIPD gives a member something that genuinely changes what they do at work that week, it brings what could otherwise be a very big debate about the future of a profession down to something refreshingly practical. So having followed HR and the CIPD for the best part of 25 years, I found this a particularly fascinating conversation. Having the incoming chief executive, together with the CIP DS Chair and president, gives us a very rare opportunity to hear in one podcast both the scale of the challenge and the ambition for what comes next. And if they're right, this isn't simply about reinventing the CIPD. It's about HR being clearer and confident about the contribution it makes to organizations, to productivity, and ultimately to the wider economy. And with Neil about to take the reins, no pressure, Neil, that makes the next few years particularly fascinating to watch. So a very big thank you to Neil, Chris and Chloe for joining me for this special Miracast. And thank you to all of our listeners and for the great feedback we're getting on the show. If you enjoyed this podcast, we'd love for you to subscribe, rate and review through your usual podcast provider, whether that's Spotify, iTunes, or now. We have a YouTube channel as well. And if you want to find out more about the Miracast, look for me, Trevor Meridon or our business Mirrorborn at mirrorborn.co.uk. That's it for now, and until next time, thanks for listening.