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Speaker 4On recent episodes of the Questlove Show, I chatted with JoJo about her music and Wallo267 about his story and everything in between. Don't invite me to karaoke. I'm going to make it weird. Someone's going to try to sing Leave Get Out or Too Little Too Late or Baby It's You. Oh, no. And I'm going to be like, okay, cool. Check out my conversation with JoJo, Wallo267, and more on the Questlove Show. Listen to the Questlove Show on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 5Peace. What up? This is Jay Valentine, co-host of the R&B Money Podcast, alongside my brother, R&B legend, Tank. Together, we've built a space for artists, executives, and fans of R&B music to reminisce and tell the real stories behind the music. I have no money. I was hood famous. They think you're going to get everybody out. We lived in a project. Real love came out. They're hearing the music, and we had nothing. From Smokey Robinson to Mary J. Blige, B2K to Jill Scott, if you're a super dedicated R&B fan, this is where you belong. Listen to R&B Money from the. The Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 6And, man, the myth, the legend, the author of the excellent Kings and Pawns that, because it's always sitting here on the desk, I put up with Howard Bryan is on. How are you, sir?
Speaker 7Good morning, Bromani Jones. Are we going back to. You know, are we going back to pain for you? We're going back to pain.
Speaker 6We're going to go to some happiness that leads. Or, like, pain that leads. We're going to start. Okay, we're going to talk about the 1996 World Series. We are in the. 30th anniversary.
Speaker 7Very important, by the way.
Speaker 6Many things to say about that. It is a hugely important World Series in terms of the way. It's one of those pivots. Yeah, in terms of the way that we think about the history of baseball.
Speaker 7And massively underrated in that regard. When people say, like, the what if and how things turn, if that series goes in the other direction, we got a whole different history.
Speaker 6Yep. Like, the fulcrum, obviously, for this is Game 5 of this series. We will slowly build up to. 15-year-old, 16-year-old Beaumont again, kicked in the nuts by a guy named Jim Leyritz. We have time to get there. But I think the lead-up to this, obviously, is the 1980s, which I think is interesting. Because the 80s has a main character for the Braves that turns into a main character for the Yankees, which is Joe Torre. Something that I think people of a certain generation do not quite remember is that Braves won the. The Braves won the National League West in the first year of the division in 1969. And then they won it again in 1982. When they're. The manager was Joe Torre. They fired Joe Torre, I want to say, after 83 or 84. The word in my house was always it's because they wanted him to fire Bob Gibson because Bob Gibson was the pitching coach. I don't know if that was actually true, but I am certain that Bob Gibson was an awful pitching coach. I cannot imagine the pressure that comes from trying to live up to the standard of Bob Gibson as your pitching coach.
Speaker 7The fact that he and Joe were best friends.
Speaker 6Yes, yes. And also, like, back to an era when your coaches were allowed to. Which means that it's always possible that Bob Gibson would punch you because Bob Gibson was punching people into his 80s.
Speaker 7Driving miles to chase people in road rage.
Speaker 6Road rage. Road rage. Bob Gibson. Bob Gibson was so terrifying that white people of the 60s talk about how terrifying Bob Gibson was and laugh about it.
Speaker 7And love him now.
Speaker 6It seemed like they loved him then.
Speaker 7They did, but he's now the example of everything that's gone wrong. Now, Bob Gibson were around. I mean, how many times can you name a black man out there that white people want disciplining them? If Bob Gibson were here, he wouldn't let that happen.
Speaker 6But they also know that Bob Gibson would hit those wavering Negroes also in the kidneys for taking too long going around the bases.
Speaker 7And you know his response for it, right? His response for that was, well, they were the best players. They were the ones who were going to beat. They were the ones who were going to beat me. I had to put them down. Yep. Yep. Bob Gibson.
Speaker 6Whoever it was, I had to get it. I love the idea of Tim McCarver coming from white Memphis and learning about black people through the lens of I'm terrified of Bob Gibson. I got Bob Gibson. I got Bill White. I am terrified.
Speaker 7I got Bill White. I got Flood. I got Brock. I got Gibson. Yes. My favorite, Halberstam tells that story. The late, great David Halberstam in the book October 64. Where? You know, when you walked into that Cardinals clubhouse, Bob Gibson was going to test you to see what kind of man you were, especially what kind of white man you were in the 1960s. And, you know, McCarver was drinking a soda with a straw one day, and Bob looked at him and said, hey, can I have a sip? You know? And McCarver, of course, you know, white kid from Memphis was not going to let some black man share his straw. And so McCarver was pausing, going, what do I, you know, like, what do I do? I mean, I can't offend the great Bob Gibson, but I ain't drinking off no black man. And he looked at Gibson and he said, I'll save you some. Well, that was the pitch. Yeah. In today's 21st century, youngins don't know what that means. But I mean, that, that was, and Gibson didn't want a soda. He just wanted to see what kind of man he was. Yes. Right? We all knew. I mean, I don't drink off anybody's straw today, but back then we knew exactly what was, what was happening.
Speaker 6Yep. And let my daddy tell it. That's part of why Joe Torrey was no longer the manager of the Atlanta Braves. And through most of the 80s, the Braves and the Yankees were sorry, though it is a bit inexplicable how the Yankees, whose top of the lineup was Ricky Henderson, Willie Randolph, Don Mattingly, and Dave Winfield, yet did not win a job. Division. Yeah. And did not win a division with that bunch of guys. And the Braves were just out there playing for crowds of 15, 16 people.
Speaker 7Just. Well, there's a commonality there that I love about this, actually. And when you talk about it going back to the 80s, it does. I mean, it might go back to the 70s, late 70s, but it really does go back because you've got two characters that people don't talk about anymore. One is George Steinbrenner. One is Ted Turner. Right. Both of these guys, neither one in the Hall of Fame because baseball has penalized them during. For those years when they spent and spent and blew the economics of the sport out of control and neither one of them won for it. And so you have Ted Turner on the one hand, raising salaries through free agency, because let's not forget, you know, the 80s are the first 10 years of free agency, 76 up into 86. And then you've got George, who goes back to back in the World Series, loses the World Series in 81 after being up to the Dodgers. And then he can't win. And what is he? He just keeps spending and spending and spending. And the answer is obviously he spent on bad pitchers because that offense was dynamite. I mean, that offense is enough to beat anybody, but they couldn't pitch. And so when you start getting into the 90s, you've got these two characters who are really, really defined no longer by their managers, but by their owners.
Speaker 6Yeah. But also interesting because Ted turned the operation over to Bobby Cox, I want to say in 1987. as the general manager. as the manager he had been the manager in the late 70s and early 80s but he turned the front office over to him um and they built this thing from the ground up prospect wise but what that meant was last in 86 second to last in 87 last in 88 last in 89 last in 90 and this is like young me getting into baseball and i'm just watching my team get slaughtered every night my father is openly lamenting that he has walked me into a lifetime of rooting for losers but like you'd see little glimmers right they brought time glabbing up but you can only feel good about glabbing once he actually got good because otherwise he's throwing that shit up there all soft that didn't feel good um smoltz made you they got smoltz for doyle alexander and a deadline deal in 87 but as soon as you saw smoltz you were like oh there's something here it took him a while to like fully get it together but you started to see it steve avery gets drafted you started to see it steve avery gets drafted and it's a bit of a slow burn on that one but he finally gets there i guess once he's about 21 22 it's there he starts rolling right but for that time the braves are building the yankees are still chasing right still spending all that money to get guys and then is it 1990 that uh the howard spirit situation happened for those who don't know dave winfield george cyber hated dave winfield to the point that he had a known gambler tailing him to get information to ruin his reputation which led to steve avery being suspended yes
Speaker 7a full year yeah 90 a full year and on top of that um you know the yankees it's interesting because it's interesting what memory does to you because you know because you talk about suffering did you really suffer oh i mean wasn't really suffering i mean joe tory got fired in 80 and 84 right they went to the playoffs in 82 they won 89 games they won 88 the next year and then they went 80 and 82 so they did have they went five years you know they went they went a good seven a good six
Speaker 6years seven yeah it was 84 to 91 84 to 95 to 91 85 to
Speaker 791 and it's really six
Speaker 6and a half because it didn't get going to the all-star
Speaker 7break yeah i mean i mean you had chuck turner chuck chuck tanner was a good man i love chuck he was one of my favorites i bet he was i bet he was all-time favorites and he was a night owl chuck would call you at like two in the morning howard chuck what's good i'm like what do you want i mean but he was great old school baseball man loved love love chuck um all right russ nixon bad manager but then you know by 91 you're straight yeah but straight for a really long time you have to
Speaker 6understand i don't have a memory of him i don't have a memory of him i don't have a memory of him of 1984 i don't have a memory of 1982 so the people that were there the whole way maybe they didn't feel like they suffered all i knew was losing like when i look back at the people and the things that i convinced myself to be happy about like the the the elevated sense in my brain of zane smith uh remembering that time deon james hit 312 in 1987 and you know you got the og murph like ain't a whole lot in atlanta that everybody agrees
Speaker 7with my father a sports
Speaker 6fan yes okay yes this is his fault yeah so
Speaker 7he he did right by you though at least because he understood right i remember when the celtics lost to the to washington in the playoffs and i was balling i was like nine years old you know it had to be i remember what year it was um 75 i think and um i was younger than that i was like seven and he my dad wasn't a sports fan and he was like what do you want something to cry about he's like your team lost so what they're the celtics they win all the time what are you gonna win you think you're gonna win every day you think that's what life is you think you're gonna win every you know your team's supposed to win you lose we all lose now shut up now maybe that was just because it was a celtics and you're supposed to win so your dad was a or maybe he was just a bastard i don't know but no no
Speaker 6my dad hey man he was in it with me with the braves you got to remember he's like an ice bowl cowboys fan um yeah yeah like you know so like he he he'd been through the fires right baseball i feel like when he was younger worked out well for him because he was at that age where he just rooted for the teams that had the black people so when cleveland won in league yeah so in cleveland won in 48 that was his guy and he rooted for the dodgers because that's what black people did like he had that but no man it was it was it was that happened for the braves in 91 was that they hired an actual factual like general manager like cox was great for building the farm system then they hired sure holds who had built the john sure holds who had built a world champion in kansas city and when it brought over like a handful of his kansas city guys he also did something very underrated which is they took the dirt out of the infield that had been at fulton county stadium that was georgia red clay and just terrible and he bought dirt from kansas city and brought it in and suddenly the defense got better like it was no longer key stone cops out there i mean the braves were bad at everything i just can't explain like skip skip carry starting games with like lambs to the slaughter the braves take the field like that was i think this was literally what it was it's just skip and they were a national team by the national team it's skip and ernie johnson just entertaining themselves during these games and so the part for me as a personal attachment you have to remember is we moved to houston um in august of 87 so right before i turned seven the only thing that was there that was familiar to me was superstation was still broadcast so like i'm holding on to the brain
Speaker 7taste at home right
Speaker 6in a very strong way but what's also interesting for that time period and talking about the yankees the yankees in that time period to me were like the green bay packers where i'm watching and i keep hearing things about them but i don't understand why this is a big deal because the last time they were good i wasn't born that's right right like the yankees like this idea of the yankees didn't make any sense to me because i'd seen there was literally one they were in the american league and in that day and time if you were in a american league city the national league meant nothing and vice versa like you picture league and you saw the other guys at the all-star game and when you watch the world series
Speaker 7which is the reason which is the reason you know bud selig and i used to used to argue this point all the time when he was you know how come nobody cares about the awesome i said because technology when i was a little kid growing up in boston the only time we saw the national league i never saw mike schmidt play we saw him in the game of the week periodically it was always like dodgers phillies or mets you know mets dodgers or cubs cardinals or it was the world series of the all-star game was the only time we saw them they didn't exist and now you know you got a gazillion channels and now you got interleague in the the other league doesn't matter anymore now you've got everyday interleague it's not the same thing anymore yeah
Speaker 6like i remember when bo jackson hit that home run of the all-star game in 1989 bo jackson was my favorite player i'm not sure i'd seen him in the all-star game in 1989 i'm not sure i'd seen him in the all-star game in 1989 bo jackson actually play a baseball game until that game right there was there was different factors that way did he ever did he ever but we get to 91 with the braves and now they're finally good i think that i want to say that at the all-star break they were 39 and 40 and a pretty decent gap behind the dodgers and then had an all-time great pennant race another thing that's been kind of legislated out is the idea or notion of a pennant race of course now it's better in the but there's something about two maybe three teams every day you're waking up and you're checking the standings and seeing did somebody move up where did it go did we get the results in from the late game in time for la so forth and so on all of that but the braves made the mad dash comeback they win the national league in 91 they win the national league in 92 and these were all exciting series it was game seven against pittsburgh they were down three two in that series and then they won that one 92 francisco cabrera gets the hit in game seven um and then nice throw barry the saddest moment of barry bond's life man it's not a bad throw by the way no it wasn't it was actually a pretty close play not a bad throw
Speaker 7it didn't have enough on it but it was right on line it was not a bad
Speaker 6throw and i will also note number one the game was tied and number two that pittsburgh bullpen was going to give that game up one way or another you mean
Speaker 7when stan belinda came in the game you weren't like oh that was exactly what i was about to say the fact that stan belinda was the person that was throwing that pitch in the first place was a terrible sign and that is all optics to me because no disrespect to stan belinda although he was not a great closer i mean he's a playoff closer i mean it was this is why we look at guys who throw hard he didn't throw hard and if a guy doesn't throw hard you feel like you got a chance
Speaker 6my dad that is always his baseball thing i like guys who throw hard like he's the original analytics guy it had no idea like maddox yeah maddox you know like i've not seen good but i like guys who throw hard if you ask anybody that watched those brave teams if it was a game you won it who did you want to pitch it there's a game you won it who did you want to pitch it there's a game you won it there's no question smokes yeah i mean and
Speaker 7you got maddox and glavin painting the corners from both sides one painted one side and the other painted both sides
Speaker 6and maddox didn't not throw hard glavin did not throw hard but you want somebody that rolls hard and so they had those pictures 93 hurt but it was kind of like okay i you understood it that race was so and that penny race was so grueling it just hurt because the 93 phillies are my single least favorite team of all time like and looking back on it i can't believe that donald trump wasn't in box seats for every game that they played. That was a redneck team, boy. Oh, my God. Like, I can just imagine that whole team should have had hats that said, I was stupid on it. You know, like, they just, ooh, I hated that team.
Speaker 7Lenny Dykes. You should have Ricky Jordan on your podcast. That's what it was like to be teammates with that team. Oh, my God. What was that like?
Speaker 6Ricky Jordan, Wes Chamberlain. Wes Chamberlain. Charlie Hayes on that team, too? Charlie Hayes was on that team.
Speaker 7Can't imagine. Get the brothers in there to say, what was it like being around Dalton and Dykstra and Eisenreich and the rest of them and Mitch?
Speaker 6Yeah, Mitch Williams. Pete Incavillia, John Kruk. And Inky and Kruk, yeah. Oh, man. What about Steve Jelts, Juan Sam Well? Well, Juan Sam Well was there a little earlier, but still.
Speaker 7Sammy got traded for Dykstra.
Speaker 6That is right. That is right. He wound up going to the Mets. 86 Mets, that's also a – that's the program book I do need to read is the book on the 86 Mets.
Speaker 7And it is also true that the 93 Phillies are a direct descendant of the 86 Mets.
Speaker 6Yes. Without question. But that's what the Braves are doing, right? They win the World Series in 1995, which is interesting because people think of the Braves as all the times they came up short. I think often, especially later in the run, there was a lot of overachieving that got missed. But Cleveland won 100 games in a 144-game season, and their best player had 152 extra base hits in a short season. And for my money, maybe the Braves –
Speaker 7Even an MVP.
Speaker 6They hated him. I mean, and they didn't even give it to a white dude. Like, they just hated him. Hot take. If Kirby Puckett's a Hall of Famer, Albert Bell kind of sort of has a very similar statistical case.
Speaker 7Not only is Albert Bell not a Hall of Famer, right? I mean, I think he should have been. Albert Bell was off the ballot in the first year.
Speaker 6Yeah, yeah. He got less
Speaker 7than 5% in the first year.
Speaker 6Loads of man with Hall of Fame statistics. I guess Kirby Puckett also has the two-world series.
Speaker 7Do you ever have an uncle that you feared?
Speaker 6Yes. Yeah, that's him.
Speaker 7I used to fear my Uncle Charles. I just feared that man. I feared him when we all were growing up, and you looked at him and it was, oh, man, you're only 5'7". But at the time, he might as well have been 8'7". That was Albert Bell when you walked into the clubhouse. I walked in when he was with the White Sox. One of the first times I walked in the clubhouse. And there he is. And media. Yeah. Get the – Get the fuck out. I was like, ain't nobody saying anything to you. I was just walking off the field to go through the clubhouse to go upstairs. I did not stop to talk to anybody. I was making my way out of the clubhouse. Media. Get the fuck out.
Speaker 6And the Braves beat them. Like, Manny Ramirez is on that team. Manny Ramirez, Kenny Lofton, Albert Bell. That's one of the greatest lineups of all time.
Speaker 7You had Paul Sorrento hit an eighth on that team.
Speaker 6Yes. Dave Winfield, Eddie Murray.
Speaker 7Like. Although, when he wasn't on the postseason, I don't think. Carlos Baerga. That was his last year.
Speaker 6Yeah. Carlos Baerga's on that team. Yeah. Sorrento. Jim Tomei.
Speaker 7Tomei, of course.
Speaker 6This kill was playing shortstop. Sandy Alomar. Like, that was ridiculous. Yeah. They were beasts.
Speaker 7And they had – Matt Williams was on that. Matt Williams was a third baseman. Yes, he was.
Speaker 6And they had just been sorry. Yeah. They had just been sorry not long before that.
Speaker 7They had just built Jacobs Field.
Speaker 6Yep. They had time. That's right. Because they had timed that to get into that stadium. I think if there had been playoffs in 94, they would have made it. And then they timed it to be good when it was that they were good. And then they just lost to the Braves. Like, the Braves are riding high. The Braves get into the 96 postseason, and they're down to the Cardinals 3-1.
Speaker 7And then go bananas.
Speaker 6And those next three games and go bananas. I think there was one close game.
Speaker 714-0, 3-1, 15-0?
Speaker 6Yes. Yes. And I remember, as a fan, never did it dawn on me that they were going to lose that season.
Speaker 7That your team, or that, you know. And isn't it an interesting thing when you recognize that, obviously, New England Patriots fans know this, you know, when all of a sudden you go from loser to winner. Yeah. And suddenly when you go from loser to winner, now there's a level of confidence that you have that you never thought was possible with these guys. I mean, even to this day, I still look at the Patriots and go, the Patriots? I mean, the Patriots meant nothing. The Patriots were. The Patriots meant nothing. For NFL films to showcase Bob Greasy and O.J. Simpson, right? Who were they crushing every time? The Patriots. They're running all over the Patriots.
Speaker 6Yes, the Falcons in the 49ers clips.
Speaker 7Exactly. And so, but now the Braves, you go to the World Series in 91, you go to the World Series in 92, you win the World Series in 95. You destroy the Cardinals in 96. And you destroy them not just by, you know, by beating them. But by, you know, they've got an elimination game and at home in St. Louis, and they lose 14 to nothing. They score one more run the rest of the series. Yes. They get outscored 30 to 30 to one.
Speaker 6They ran through them. That's what I'm saying. Like, it was. 30 to one in three games? Yeah. But see, the thing about it with the Braves, because it had been such a building action, you had time to get comfortable with the idea that, like, you've done the losing, you've done the things. Okay, they've overcome this. And then the down three, whatever. Okay, they're going to. They blow the Cardinals out of there. At the same time, the Yankees, 94, the Yankees were the best team in the American League. Yes. Then there was no postseason. 95, the first year that we have the wild card round in the postseason, they lose that heartbreaker game five to Seattle, where Randy Johnson comes out of the bullpen. And was it Griffey? Scores the, scores the winning run in game five.
Speaker 7From first. From the double in the corner by Agate Martinez.
Speaker 6Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was like, it was.
Speaker 7After, by the way, Bo, after being up 2-0. Yeah, I forgot about that. They were up 2-0 and lost three in a row.
Speaker 6I forgot about that. And that was still Showalter. Like, that was the last series of Showalter before he went and took a job that didn't even exist yet.
Speaker 7Well, he was fired. Yes. You know. That was all he did. He hired Joe. And that is the very interesting thing about the whole thing. Like, these are pivots. There's certain hinges on the door that change history. If you're the Yankees, now the Yankees are on their way. I mean, George gets suspended and it is. Yeah, but I say we didn't get to that.
Speaker 6The big pivot is George gets suspended. And since he's not there, people can actually do their jobs.
Speaker 7Yeah. Stick Michael builds that team. And so the way, so at the same, you know, in a similar vein that Bobby Cox is actually building to get, you know, to, to circumvent the, you know, the craziness of the mad owner stick is doing the same thing because George is suspended. Right. So the, you know, I mean, George, George would have traded. Bernie Williams, George would have traded Mariano Rivera. George would have blown that whole thing up before it even got started.
Speaker 6You mean, you mean Jay Buena for Ken Phelps? Wasn't a great idea.
Speaker 7Kind of a bad deal, kind of a bad deal. And all of that, I mean, they, I mean, think about it, that 1990 team, they traded Ricky to the, to the, um, back to the A's in 89. And, you know, you had an outfield out there of, of, uh, Luis Polonia. Yeah. Kind of had the Dion Sanders problem himself. And Dion was on that team, but he didn't have a sex offender problem. And then you had Mel Hall out there as well. Who's still in prison, isn't he? Yes, he is. And, um, man, my bad Dion.
Speaker 6I didn't realize that Howard was running through all the dudes that had treated women badly. My fault. That's all me. I wasn't trying to imply nothing. I was just remembering who played in the outfield.
Speaker 7Exactly. But I mean, that team, you want to talk about falling all the way off the cliff. And they're making their way back and now they're a good team, but they still haven't been to the world series since 1981. Yep. They haven't won the world series since 1978. They feel like they got cheated in 1994 and they lose in a heartbreaking way in 1995. And by the way, that's Don Mattingly's only playoff appearance. Yep. And then they immediately, you know, they're like, okay, we want Tino Martinez. And so Donnie's done anyway. And so what is sort of fascinating about all of it is, is that the Braves and the Yankees are moving right around the same time, but the Braves get there faster. Yeah. They're both in a, on a collision course. Yes. Yes. They're both heading in the right direction by the time you get to, you know, I mean, they very easily could have could have met in the world series in 94. Yeah. Right. They could have, I mean, Montreal was a great team, but there's no guarantee who was going to do what once you get to the playoffs. And so it's fascinating that when it all comes together, not only are the Braves and the Yankees playing each other in the world series, but they're also playing with Joe Torrey, who obviously has a, a serious connection to Atlanta. That's his team, his town. And of course he tells that famous story when they go down O2 in the world series, you know, O2, at home. Now you're going down there for three. Don't worry. This is my town.
Speaker 6Yeah. And I remember that. Yeah. And that team was built. That's Derek Jeter shows up in 96, obviously, but it's like Rivera Rivera is the setup man on that team. You've got Andy Pettit on that team. You've got Bernie Williams. Tino was okay. I know Cecil field was on that team was Tito on that one. Yep. Yeah. All like all these guys. It's not big. It's not names. Derek Jeter, obviously. I mean, Derek Jeter, Just enough of a big deal, my favorite baseball story ever hauser working as a scout for the astros when they had the number one pick in 1992 says we should take derrick jeter and they take phil nevin and how new house are retired because clearly he doesn't know anything about baseball if this if they couldn't listen to me on this one he retired i quit i'm not coming back and doing this but that team is set up the braves are now a mix of their homegrown guys but also your greg maddox your fred mcgriff um you know you've got you've got uh grissom is playing center field on this team like they're it's not the team completely that it was in 91 but it's still largely foundationally that team and they're coming
Speaker 7off a world series the 96 yankees were loaded the 96 yankees are you know they're they're they are you've got not only do you have cecil fielder on that team you get daryl strawberry on that team on the bench yes you got wade boggs on that team you know you had ruben sierra was your dh i mean you had really good players i mean guys who were very very very well known i mean dwight gooden and
Speaker 6daryl strawberry on that team
Speaker 7right exactly and you had and gooden threw no hitter that year yeah and so you know you had you had a lot of players yeah and they were absolutely in a lot of ways um they were ready and you had coney of course it was you know already a champion yeah david co i mean they they were straight and and you know you had the closer you had wetland your they they were ready to play and so it's really interesting when i always when i think about the 96 team the the thing that i think about the most with them is the off
Speaker 6total right there coming up next what howard bryant thinks the most about the 96 yankees
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Speaker 3guaranteed this football season it's game on with ryobi whether you're getting the yard ready for kickoff clearing leaves before guests arrive or powering your tailgate ryobi's 40 volt outdoor lineup has you covered with over 85 products powered by the same 40 volt battery you'll get peak performance across leaf blowers chainsaws trimmers and more when it's time to take the party beyond the yard ryobi's portable power solutions keep your tailgate running strong ryobi the number one cordless outdoor power brand at ryobi tools.com slash football ryobi only at the home depot i'm
Speaker 8hamza and i'm martin and we're the hosts of out of character it's a podcast i know there's a lot of them to listen to these days how are you going to get to us well there's a specific reason why you should listen to us we are the best podcast in the entire world i swear i know bold but why don't we list some of the things we might talk about on a regular episode so sometimes we'll talk about i don't know the uber driver we just had and how nice they were or if we tipped them or not come and find out sometimes we'll talk about that weird news story from last week it's the one you're thinking about trust me or maybe we'll talk about music and what's happening in the underground or drama and music or tv shows or the med gala and what the actors wore what we're saying is we're not afraid to talk about everything under the sun and if you want to see what that's like come join us it's a place where everyone can hang out anyone wherever you're from wherever you're like you're welcome listen out of character from will ferrell's big money players network on the iheart radio app apple pods or wherever you get your
Speaker 9podcasts this is daryl bell and
Speaker 10i'm khadim harrison and
Speaker 9together we're the voices behind the newest podcast on the black effect podcast network a different world view with daryl and khadim each thursday we're re-watching an episode of the show that changed our lives and so many others a different world we're sharing
Speaker 10never before heard stories from behind the scenes sitting down with other stars from the show to hear their unique perspectives we're also discussing
Speaker 9the arts world and pop culture headlines with plenty of laughs along the way we did a movie
Speaker 10called school days and me being a trained actor you got you get
Speaker 9the first shot so i took the
Speaker 10trained actor yeah and you being the dude that said hey spike on the street you saw him in the coming out of the bathroom or something and say hey spike coming out of the bathroom i might have made that up so don't miss the start of something great listen to it on the iheart radio app apple pods
Speaker 9to a different world view with daryl and khadim every thursday from the black effect podcast network on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcast football is heating up and
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Speaker 3guaranteed this football season it's game on with ryobi whether you're getting the yard ready for kickoff clearing leaves before guests arrive or powering your tailgate ryobi's 40 volt outdoor lineup has you covered with over 85 products powered by the same 40 volt battery you'll get peak performance across the field and you'll get leaf blowers chainsaws trimmers and more when it's time to take the party beyond the yard ryobi's portable power solutions keep your tailgate running strong ryobi the number one cordless outdoor power brand visit ryobitools.com slash football ryobi only at the home depot
Speaker 8i'm hamza and i'm martin and we're the hosts of out of character it's a podcast i know there's a lot of them to listen to these days how are you going to get to us well there's a specific reason why you should listen to us we are the best podcast in the entire world i swear i know bold but why don't we list some of the things we might talk about on a regular episode so sometimes we'll talk about i don't know the uber driver we just had and how nice they were or if we tip them or not come and find out sometimes we'll talk about that weird news story from last week it's the one you're thinking about trust me or maybe we'll talk about music and what's happening in the underground or drama and music or tv shows or the met gala and what the actors wore what we're saying is we're not afraid to talk about everything under the sun and we're not afraid to talk about everything under the sun and we're not afraid to talk about everything under the sun and we're not afraid to talk about everything under the sun and we're not afraid to talk about everything under the sun and we're not afraid to talk about everything under the sun and if you want to see what that's like come join us it's a place where everyone can hang out anyone wherever you're from whatever you're like you're welcome listen out of character from will farrell's big money players network on the iheart radio app apple pods or wherever you get your
Speaker 11podcasts i'm former u.s women's national soccer team player carly lloyd i'm fox sports reporter jenny taft and on our new podcast whatever it takes we're talking motherhood marriages careers and figuring out how to balance it all and we'll discuss the game that brought us together
Speaker 12because nothing is off limits do you remember your initial reaction when fox called you to be a part of the world cup
Speaker 11i was like no i don't want to do it you said no i played with players that didn't i don't think that they really truly love the game i found the
Speaker 12love with the ball at my foot but in my head it was the long game it was like i don't care what i'm being asked to do at fox i'm gonna go get some reps and i'm gonna learn it and love it and
Speaker 13embrace it he said this group of people will never be in the same room as part of the same team ever again in your life and it is your job to make sure that you enjoy the moment you're proud of what you accomplish together listen to whatever it takes with carly lloyd and jenny taft on the iheart radio app apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts
Speaker 6all right we are back with howard bryant talking about the 96 world series we're going to talk about what he remembers most about that team but i want to set up that series right fast because i think before we get straight to oh two it is important to remember how we got to oh two right braves win two games at the old stadium with an unforgettable moment of andrew jones in two home runs and first two at bats at yankee stadium kind of the best and worst thing to ever happen to him i feel like if that doesn't happen our expectations aren't so jacked up of what he could be and it took us so long to simply be satisfied with him being the greatest defensive center fielder whoever lived but if you're a teenager yes 19 years old um if you are a braves fan got this because the yankees there's nothing like that at all at this point right like they are you might as well have been playing basketball against the university of san francisco you know they won championships way you know bill russell ain't on that team like what it is that we're really talking about um and well yeah there's that what was that thing you were
Speaker 7thinking about it's it's not just that though it's it's something else too which is you know and as we find out over time when you talk about great teams you're not just playing the team you're playing the aura right i mean you are playing them especially if you're afraid of them and you know you're afraid of them the atlanta braves have no reason to fear anybody you're the defending world series champions right you've already been battle tested you got your heart broken in 91 you got your heart broken in 92 you got upset in 93 you win the championship in 95 and hold on you have six
Speaker 6straight cy young awards on your pitching staff
Speaker 7on your roster on top of that you overcome a 3-1 against the cardinals and so in a type of fashion that made you look like you were playing a little league team right you killed them and so here you come in so let's think about this all right so you're down 3-1 in an elimination game in st louis you win 14 to nothing okay you go home for game six you win 3-1 you're home for game seven you win 15 to nothing you go to the world series in yankee stadium you win 12 to 1 like so look at that stretch you've scored 14 3 15 12 and then the next night you shut them out for nothing you're killing everybody like so not only are you killing everybody not only are you the defending champions you're going home for three get two of those games win that series win those three games you know win that three game series and you're world champions you're back-to-back champions now right so now you're going into the next game and you're going home for three games of the 97 season not only having all that in the back in the past but you're the back-to-back world series champions as well like it's all set up for the braves dynasty everything is lined up right then and there when you get on that plane to go to atlanta for game
Speaker 6three and then they lost
Speaker 7and then they didn't win another not only did they lose they
Speaker 6don't win another game another game the game five honestly man the the details of all that and then they lost and then they didn't win that don't i've never bothered to be concerned with the with the have you ever watched you
Speaker 7have you watched that game since hell no why would i do that
Speaker 6like like it's on all the
Speaker 7time i didn't
Speaker 6yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but that's i mean it's it's a hundred other things all at the same time that thing is on like i just i don't i don't do recreational sadness howard well the reason why
Speaker 7i asked is not because i want you to fly i know you don't i know you don't
Speaker 6i'm just explaining you how i how i get down that's all yes
Speaker 7but the reason why i asked was because of the phenomenon called flashbulb memory was it the way you remember it and also and also because whenever there's a comeback whether it be 28 to 3 or whatever you want to call it whatever you know you know whatever comeback it takes two whether it's the 35 to 3 you know bills and the oilers right it always takes two and when you watch that you know you sort of forensically look at it and go how did this go wrong right how did this happen and baseball just happens in a flash by the way it
Speaker 6was game four i'm sorry i always call it game four that's a game
Speaker 7you're thinking of um you know that's the that's the lay ritz home run game all right i mean and that's the for those who don't
Speaker 6know the braves are ahead six to nothing
Speaker 7they're up six nothing then six three and the lyrics ties it off waller's six to nothing um as we say anything about waller's as my man ron washington would say that's how baseball go yeah
Speaker 6yeah the the the waller's thing was the braves bullpen had always been an issue right in one form or another they were always cobbling together they out there trying to get it done with all kinds of dudes that used to play for somebody else juan baron gear alejandro pena um and then eventually they get to waller's and hey man that dude was throwing 100 miles an hour when not everybody did that it was kind of amazing he but that's it all he had was gas the control was not necessarily there but it was not i it didn't ever feel like waller's was throwing like filthy gas it was just gas straight line gas and you just kind of had to hope that he didn't put it in a bad place and you know walk
Speaker 7the bases loaded yep that
Speaker 6was always on the board and he threw that pitch to lay ritz and it's a it was a no-brainer home run too it's the crack of the bat it was in atlanta it was cracking the bat this series is about to be over they just needed to hold on and he hit that one out of there and there was nothing left to do the series was over it was a one nothing in the game after that and i got honestly i have forgotten that there was even extra innings in this game i completely like it just it is this is like a really truly a trauma response i can't believe this it was it all seems set up everything was there you're gonna get back you go through all this you get back to back championships that's a whole different place in this sport everything feels great you have to go back to know new york and then it was very clear you guys aren't you guys aren't winning
Speaker 7and don't win another championship until 2021 correct i mean that is the that's one of the swings i remember talking to to henry aaron about this because you know there's a precedent here the 57 58 57 58 so the milwaukee braves beat the yankees in seven games in 1928 1957 henry aaron's only championship you know milwaukee braves win the championship the next year rematch and the braves are up 3-1 lose three in a row lose the world series never get back that was it and one of the things henry always used to talk about was he would say we had to have that one if we got that one not only would we have been back to back not only would we have been back to back beating the yankees back to back which nobody does you know i don't think anyone had beaten the yankees in back-to-back world series since the giants in what 21 22 and and we we would be remembered as one of the great teams of all time nobody talks about us nobody remembers us as one of the great teams of all time we had warren spawn and lou burdette and eddie matthews and me and nobody talks about us and how come nobody talks about us it's not just because we moved to atlanta it's because we didn't win that world series yep you know and so when i think about 96 one of the things i remember most about it is um you know my man glenn stout said this years ago you know devastating losses have devastating consequences and the very interesting thing about it is that you know the word on the street everybody knowing what was going on up at river avenue right um was george gonna fire joe after one year after losing like that was he gonna blow the whole thing up i mean there's a good chance that all those things happen andy pettit was the guy and he got destroyed and maybe george would have looked at him and said ah you know you're not new york ready right and who knows what would have happened and it and instead it launches the thing in the other direction and all of a sudden the yankees are back and now if young bomani jones had no idea what the yankees were all about you now you're about to find out what baseball is like when the yankees are good well and well
Speaker 6also for the braves as it plays out i really lock in on the next three years yeah and i was going to
Speaker 7say one quick thing about that one of the things about that too that i find fascinating in the braves favor they didn't stop no winning they go back to the world series at 99 they won the division nine more times exactly and then they just keep dominating so it wasn't like it wasn't like the whole building collapsed - Right. - They just never, you know, When they played the Yankees in 99, those Yankee teams were just – that Yankee team was just a beast. Yeah, but the Braves won like 108 games that year.
Speaker 6True, and the Yankees swept them. Yeah, it felt like they had a chance, and then it was very, very, very clear. Because one thing to remember, after the championship, Ted doesn't own the team anymore. Tom Warner owns the team. So now some of the decisions, all right, something else is going out. You know, we're having to trade something to get the budget to the right place. And so the Braves, after being like, we're just doing this with great pitching all the way through. Some years it was great offense. Some years it was a great bullpen. Like it was all the way cobbling it together. 97, after – oh, let's see. We talked about them blowing it there. Game six, Charlie Hayes catches the fucking ball at third base. Yeah, Yankees win. Everybody jumping up and down and stuff. It's cops on horses. Nothing good has ever happened with the cop pull up on a horse. But whatever, I'm sure –
Speaker 7Except that Wade Boggs is now on the horse.
Speaker 6Yeah, yeah. You know what? That makes me wonder if Wade Boggs pulled up on somebody and beat him with a blackjack. That's what I think about when I see the cop on a horse.
Speaker 7And that is a Boston moment. Oh, yeah. Wade Boggs is on a horse wearing pinstripes. I mean, yeah. Black man don't walk around Boston that night.
Speaker 6Let me tell you something also. Wade Boggs is the ultimate, like, for those of us who grew up in a certain generation of race relations, Wade Boggs, as he's known in my house, he ain't no Tony Gwynn.
Speaker 7Oh, boy. And also, never mind the fact that he has – he had the whole affair with Margot Adams. He did. And in that interview, was it Playboy or whatever, where that interview talked about how much Wade didn't like his black teammates, how he used to say – what did he say? Margot talked about how Jim Rice wanted to be white and how he couldn't stand Oil Cam Boyd, right? And said something like – what did he say? He said something like, you know, I mean, I could never be with a black woman because what would people think? Right? I mean, Margot just laid him out that, you know, the chicken man was the biggest racist in the clubhouse, which had a lot of competition in that Red Sox clubhouse. But still, that – it is a pivotal, pivotal moment. And it doesn't get a whole lot of discussion because – but it was really two-pronged. But I did – and I still feel like – the Braves – the Braves still held up their end, right? I mean, even though they didn't get back – they got back to the World Series once. They didn't win. But as a sports fan, as a team – as a fan of your team –
Speaker 6Whoa, whoa, whoa, hold on. We didn't get to talk about them getting robbed the next year when Eric Gregg decided to fix the game. I was about to bring up 97.
Speaker 7And I was about to bring up 97 right when you said that. I was thinking, oh, and let's not forget the Eric Gregg game.
Speaker 6Man, you know, I said he fixed the game. And that's not fair. Because that makes it sound like he was, like, trying to do it for gambling or something like that. He got caught up in that game. He was a Rico Palazzo. Yeah, he just got really excited about calling them strikes. The strikes that he was calling – yes, that is exactly it. Like, when it is that Frank Drevin needs to stretch the game out, and he's at ball, right down the pipe, ball. Exactly. Eric Gregg was doing the opposite. That last pitch to Fred McGriff is right down the opposite – He called that a strike before
Speaker 7he even crossed the plate.
Speaker 6And it was down the opposite batter's box. Once when – I was in Miami, and they made a 30-for-30 about the Hernandez brothers, about Levon and El Duque, right? And so I'm in this room full of Miami Cubans. And obviously, Levon winning the World Series and being LCS MVP and World Series MVP is a triumphant moment. And him having a game where he broke the league championship record for strikeouts is a triumphant moment in the movie. For everybody in that room, except for me. And I'm like, how are you going to – how are you going to explain this? Because you're going to have to show the pitches. And they're just like, I don't know. It's just, it was a really wide strike zone that day. And they showed them bogus – oh, my God.
Speaker 7It was thrilling me being in there. Isn't that – isn't it – it's one of those times where you look, you know – and I remember, because I had no dog in that fight. One, it was the National League. I didn't care. I mean, it was the – I didn't care. It was like, you know, and the Levon Hernandez story was kind of interesting. And, you know, the Braves were the Braves. And so it was just – but I remember watching that game. And I'm like, this is what it must be like when you know you're being robbed. Literally being – like, when you're like, oh, the refs are against us. Why don't you stop whining? No, no, no. You're literally being robbed. You're not hearing me right now. This is like a ring camera. You're watching the guys on the porch stealing your Amazon packages.
Speaker 6And people also – They also have the argument against – well, you know, the Braves should have been more aggressive. They don't make bats long enough to hit those pitches.
Speaker 7Oh, my goodness.
Speaker 6Oh, my God.
Speaker 7It was – it was – it was tremendous theater. It was laugh – it was literally laughable. It was that bad. And I – you know, and I – and I, you know, got to meet Eric Gregg once. I mean, he's a good dude, right? I mean, he had a bad day. And it was – and became – I know, miss you with that. I know. No, no, no.
Speaker 6I'll tell you what's so funny. After he died. I once wrote an article about how, wow, man, he just had a bad day. I've been so fierce with this man for years. I'm going to let it go. And I let it go that day. See that? I was lying. I was lying. I have never felt that way since that day. I never felt like it before that day.
Speaker 7But you were human that day because a man died and it was only a baseball game. It was only a baseball game. That's all it was. However, however, that shit was wild. It was wild. And every time I see those clips. I start laughing because I all I can think of is the naked gun. So shout out to you, the late great Leslie Nielsen. Oh, my God.
Speaker 6Then the next year, man. Kevin Brown was out here throwing 98 mile an hour sinkers.
Speaker 7Yeah, nobody was touching Kevin Brown.
Speaker 6There was nothing to be done. Like, it was just it was like, OK, so it was one thing when they were. It felt better. Kevin Brown. It just felt weird with Kevin Brown, I guess, because it was the Padres. But I guess it was the Marlins also. But at least he was an actual factual gas.
Speaker 7Yeah, well, and they were great. I mean, I. Think and then they got swept by the Yankees, too. So, you know, in the World Series. But, you know, nobody was beating that 98 team. Nobody was beating that team except the Cleveland Indians who had them two games to one at home. They did. And the Indians had beat them the year before, right? Yeah, I beat him. Beat Rivera. Sandy Alomar took Rivera deep. And Rivera's first year as a closer. And so it's a really interesting time period because everything sort of exists by a hair. If this goes this way, if that goes, you know, there's all kinds of opportunities. And and then, of course, the fraud of the Marlins that, you know, the Marlins win the World Series and then completely dismantle the whole team and then do it again six years later. And I believe the Marlins are still, if I'm not mistaken, the Marlins are still the only team in baseball history to win a world, you know, to I think they've they've made the playoffs like four or five times. They've never won the division. Wow. Yeah, right. They've never won a division title. They've got two World Series and never won a division. And it's, you know, once again, it's that sort of wild ass baseball thing that makes baseball great, makes baseball different from everybody else. And the fact of the matter is. The Braves are always going to be that team that you look at whenever you're doing your insane lists and rankings of whether or not they were a dynasty, and they're clearly a dynasty. They clearly gave their fans everything that you can give them, except obviously they didn't. You know, they had some really, really tough, tough losses, but 14 straight division titles. I mean, every single year, every single year, you know that your summer is going to be a great summer. Now, who knows what's going to happen when you get to October? But can you give your fans more than that? Like, I remember talking to some Braves fans and they would say, well, you know, I would have taken two. World Series, you know, four division championships and like six, you know, 89 lost seasons for those two championships. I'm like, no, you wouldn't.
Speaker 6No, no, no. I've never complained once about them not winning more World Series. Like, I feel like post 96, like it's almost a different thing after 96. Those teams were not as good. They were not as dominant. And a lot of those appearances in the playoffs were. On the basis of the greatness of the manager who was not a great manager. If you were trying to win seven games, but was an excellent manager over 162. Yeah. Like there's just 90 games. Yeah. Yeah. There's, there's, there's no way around it. Um, but I've never been a person that's looked at it with some measure of regret because, oh my gosh, they didn't win more championships. I will never forget. I feel like in my life, my team, capital M, capital T, my team has won two championships. The 2005 Texas Longhorns in football and the 1995 brace. I don't know if I could ever be as happy as I was when they won that doing it again. It never would have felt the same. It wouldn't have, it would have been fine. It would have been great. Obviously I would have loved to have had it, but it was something to be said to, like you said, a whole summer. I'm going to tune in and watch a good baseball team. I'm going to watch Greg Maddox make that ball do things that I didn't even know was possible that could be done. I'm going to watch Andrew Jones. run through center field and shag balls that I just can't believe any human could do. And then maybe run up the wall just for fun. What more do I need?
Speaker 7Then you're going to get something that most sports fans never get, which is to feel what it's like to be loathed by everybody else in sports because your team is so damn good. The Braves were villains in the National League. Like it was like enough already, right? I mean, it wasn't like they were like the benign team that won and everybody liked them. I mean, they demolished the National League East every single year. And they were the bullseye of every other team in the league. And they had it all. They had the pitching and they had the players. And let's not forget, you know, they had the glamour. You got David Justice and Halle Berry sitting there, right? They were the center of baseball. The owner married Jane Fonda. And the owner was married to Jane Fonda, right? I mean, so they had it all. And also, I think the other thing to remember about that team when you think about them was that even though they did have those devastating playoff losses, they also had that sort of can't be killed thing because of what they did in 96. It was like they are a playoff tough team. And if you're up two games to one in a five-game series, you might not get that fifth game.
Speaker 6I mean, they did it in 91 where they're down 3-2 going to Pittsburgh and they threw a child, Steve Avery, and not much older than John Smoltz. And they brought it home. You know, with Steve Avery's best friend on the team being Deion Sanders. Because we forget that Deion in that 92 World Series was a beast.
Speaker 7He was great. Exactly. Tim McCarver didn't forget him.
Speaker 6Nah. Hey, I tell you this, boy. Growth is realizing how deadly wrong Deion was for that. At the time, I was absolutely team Deion. Adult me is like, what were you doing? Yeah. Like, all he did was say, maybe you should be with the team.
Speaker 7Yeah. That's right. And you took a bucket of ice-cold water and poured it on a former player.
Speaker 6And called him a bitch. And as Michael Wilbon said, and I believe he is correct, I do not believe that that is a fight that Deion Sanders would have won. No, you don't mess with Tim McCarver.
Speaker 7Tim McCarver. Tim McCarver. You know what? One of the things that I try not to do, try not to do it, but I don't always succeed, is professional athletes are different. Like, they're just different. Their bodies are different. Like, I remember the first time I met Shaquille O'Neal, and I remember staring at his foot the whole night in the green room at Staples Center one night. The guy's had a size 22 foot. I'm just looking at this leather, right? I'm like, that's a human being sitting next to you. And we're not the same species. And you look at catchers. Go look at Joe Torre's hands. Joe Torre's hands is the size of this laptop. You know what I mean? I mean, I remember talking to Tim McCarver and sitting next to Tim. And he had that buttery Memphis accent. Howard, how you doing? And you look at him, and you're like, that's a big old burly. He could have been from Southie. You know, beat your ass.
Speaker 6I shook Shaq's hand one time, and I couldn't believe. And I got pretty good-sized hands. I couldn't believe I was able to get this part high enough to, like, bring it around, to get the, like, to be a full participant in the handshake.
Speaker 7And don't shake Adrian Peterson's hand. I'm terrified of that.
Speaker 6That's a good idea, because apparently he just clearly gets his jollies.
Speaker 7Yeah, he did. I shook his hand when he was the guest editor at ESPN, the magazine, once. And he tried to break my damn hand. I was like, that shit ain't funny.
Speaker 6Nah, I'm hitting him with that. What's up, big dog? Right here, baby.
Speaker 7We weren't doing a little fist pump at that time. We just shook his hand, and he turned the bones in my hand into powder, and I never forgot it.
Speaker 6Like, he the only person his age that don't want to dap, but wants to shake people's hands. Exactly. Like, ah, that boy was taught respect. Why are you fumbling? That actually is the most ironic thing in the world. The man with the greatest handshake in the world had a fumbling problem.
Speaker 7We call that justice.
Speaker 6And on that note, Howard Bryant, Kings and Paws, you can still get it, and one of Howard's other 37 books available at booksellers all over the world. My brother, I appreciate you.
Speaker 7Love the throwback.
Speaker 6Appreciate you, man. Ladies and gentlemen, thanks so much for joining us here on The Right Time. We do this four days a week. Ryan Brumley handling everything behind the scenes. Thank you, sir. Hit the voicemail line, 323-596-7767. Remember, follow The Right Time. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us. Give us five stars. You only give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. We'll talk to you guys in a couple of days. Take it easy. maker production.
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