How Your Relationship Is Keeping You POOR (w/ Alex Hormozi) | Ep 203

0:00 Speaker 1 Picking the wrong person can break your business. Picking the right person can make your business. In this episode, we're going to explore how this effects business owners, employees, and single people. It was like 2 weeks ago, I want to say that we were talking about it and we correlated pretty much every high performer in the company with having immense support, if not encouragement, not even just support, but encouragement from their significant other. 0:25 Or they don't have one or have one that is aloof, meaning they're just not interfering with their career. And so that creates an environment in which they are a top performer. Or at least the way I see it is I care less about the fact that it affects their job here. 0:41 I care more about the fact that it affects their life and their goals. And I think what it led to like a bigger discussion for us was just like how many people that we know that they chose the wrong person, and because they chose the wrong person, their life has not turned out how they wanted it to. 0:55 Speaker 2 Yeah, I think when I was thinking more about it after we because we talked like a whole evening on just this one topic. 1:01 Speaker 1 And in the morning? 1:01 Speaker 2 Yeah, it was like, which is actually a pretty meaty discussion for us to do like a 2 day topic on it. I was thinking about it more and I think there's like 4 levels of spouse or significant other interference or support in someone's life. 1:18 So on the most negative, you have somebody who's actively trying to sabotage the person's job. So they're like anytime the person's frustrated, they lean into the frustration. So they're like, yeah, they do suck. You know what, they shouldn't work you that hard. You shouldn't have to do these things, right? 1:34 Lots of shoulds. And I think an alternative version of that negative is the competitive spouse who wants to beat their spouse. And like if the spouse gets ahead, then they see that as a bad thing. And I think that happens more often in unmarried partnerships than married. 1:50 Best to think it happens in both because it's they don't see it as one pot. It's still like 2 separate bank accounts or two separate scoreboards rather than like our collective scoreboard. I think 1° after that, you have the neutral, the aloof. 2:05 They're like, you have a job. I don't want to hear about it, but just as long as it doesn't interfere with what we want to do, which I think oftentimes that ends up over time becoming the negative. Because the more involved the person gets in their career, the more they will bring work home with them because their work is their life and they just are really interested in it and want to talk to talk to the person they care the most about with it. 2:25 And then I think that the degree after that is you have support, like the active support. And I think for most people, this is like the best that most people will end up getting. I think the 4th, which is extremely rare, is where the person actively helps the individual. 2:43 And that's where you see like working spouses, working relationships where they like actually work together towards the same goal. And I think that's still, I mean, I used to think there's like cheerleader fullback, which is like this person's cheering for you and this person's on the field and I equated them. But I actually, the more I thought about it, the more I think if we're just talking long term, then how could you make the argument that somebody who's actually helping you actively rather than just eliminating other things that distract you? 3:09 So one is removing negatives and the other one is like actively adding positives too. 3:15 Speaker 1 And I think that can look different for different people, meaning like adding positives can be that somebody makes work easier for you by what they do at home. You know, like the way that they take care of the house, the way they take care of the kids, you know, things like that. And they encourage you to keep doing work the way you want to do work. 3:33 Or it could be like us, where it's like, you know, we're all in on doing the same thing together. 3:39 Speaker 2 I think why we were thinking about this more is that like we've seen people who have potential, who we've hired, we've brought on the team and through a poor mate selection, they have gone from rising stars to stagnant or even declining because it's kind of like this, this continue. 3:59 It's it's kind of like if you're driving a car quickly, like a tiny steering direction doesn't change very much when the person's a low or mid level person, but as they move up, it's like the car goes faster and each tiny little veering direction makes a bigger change in the person's trajectory. 4:15 And so I think this was just like a theme that we've seen and then we then we try to like back validate it. We were like, OK, let's look at past companies, let's look at past employees, let's look at all these different scenarios and it just seemed to be like a 100% correlation. It was like we could not find a scenario where we had someone who consistently moved up, consistently improved, consistently got better, and didn't have a spouse that was basically all in with them on their career. 4:41 Speaker 1 I don't know if you remember this, but when we first got married, I remember someone telling us that a healthy marriage or or partnership more so is how I was positioned in a most partnerships that are what people consider normal. 4:57 When one spouse is down and they're thinking negatively about something, they're having a hard time, they're struggling, the other spouse is here and then they come down here with that spouse. And what this person told me that reinforced how we interact is when one of us is down, the other one doesn't go down with them. 5:16 Like if one of us is feeling negative about something, I, I actively, I'm like, oh, I'm not gonna feed into that. I'm gonna remind of the goal. I'm gonna remind of all the hard work. I'm gonna remind of what, what you want. And you do that for me too. It's like encouraging. It's not like, Oh no, don't talk about that. But it's, you can do it. 5:32 You're so fucking strong. You've got all these things going for you. You've worked so hard. This is going to pass in a week. Like all these things. And I think what you see is just like over time, enough times, somebody just pulls you down and pulls you down and pulls you down. It feels like they're being empathetic in a way, but they're actually just sowing seeds of doubt and they're feeding into like what our brains do, which is always go towards the negative. 5:57 What resonated with me is when I heard someone say you have to make it home to the dinner table. If you really want to help someone skyrocket their career, you have to make it home to the dinner table. And it has to be good news at the dinner table. 6:08 Speaker 2 Well, I'll say 2 elements. So one thing is when you have a spouse or a significant other who's at home and you have that negative day, right, what happens? And I can understand why that significant other will take the next steps I'm about to say, which is they both reward the positive behavior. 6:30 They sorry, they reward with something different than work and they punish talking about work in a negative way. And so that creates A2 sided incentive that that makes it really hard for the person who is struggling with work to talk more about it or work more because then the partner associates work with negative and says, don't talk about that or like, they're pushing you too hard, right? 6:54 So that's them basically punishing them talking about this thing they're trying to get through. And then also says, hey, why don't we take some time and watch Netflix? Why don't we go out with friends? Why don't we whatever. And so in an attempt to help the partner, they end up creating a positive contingency around them not working and a negative contingency around them working, which are two separate things, but they do them both simultaneously. 7:20 And so when you do that on a consistent basis, it ends up this is where we're talking about like what happens over the long term. This is those little NASCAR moves where like a little bit like it happens once and then it happens again. And then the the car starts steering. And so that person who was otherwise a really big contributor all of a sudden doesn't find themselves dedicating discretionary effort and time towards the work or their career because everything they do at home is punished. 7:43 And they have alternatives to work that are given to them by their spouse that are quote reinforcing. But where it gets especially tricky is where that spouse or partner then wants this person. They want to enjoy the fruits of a really good career, but actively are punishing the person for talking about their work and actively distracting them from the work that they do. 8:06 So it makes it even harder for them to succeed. So at some point the rubber hits the road. And I think most times the rubber doesn't hit the road. It just happens in the person's career. So the rubber, like reality has to set it at some point. Either the conversation has to be had where it's like, hey, this career is really important to me. 8:22 And so I need to be able to talk about this stuff or I need to be able to like just work through it out loud. And that's just how I process things. And I just need you to support me. And like, that's where you start giving instructions and directions on like when I say this stuff, this is what I would like you to do rather than you hear me say something negative and you take that as direction to encourage negativity and then distract me. 8:44 Like fundamentally like that's how you translate me coming home upset, which long term makes me worse at my job, which net on our whole life is not a good thing because then my career will get off track and then we'll both suffer. 8:59 Speaker 1 Has this ever happened to you? 9:01 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. I mean. 9:04 Speaker 1 I'm curious because like from my perspective, obviously like it's more traditional for like a guy to be like, I don't want you to work so much because like, what? How are you going to do all this other stuff, right? And so like I'm used to getting that until I met you, but I'm curious for you, I. 9:15 Speaker 2 Was like go make money baby. 9:17 Speaker 1 But I'm curious for you, like what was like, how did you handle that and how did you go into our relationship differently? Because when we met, it was so clear to me. I think we're both really clear about what we wanted in terms of support in achieving our goals. 9:31 Speaker 2 Well, I'll say that. I'll say I had two two relationship prior that had two of the scenarios I talked about. So one was the competitor where it's like both of us were trying to compete with like who was going to achieve more. And so that was kind of like very subverse, very like passive, like passive aggressive, which then, and I think long term ends up creating more space between you and then you're both kind of driving these separate lanes, but not because of the benefit of the whole, you're just driving, you're basically growing apart. 9:58 The so I, I, I've gone through that and I didn't like it. And so then the, a, a different scenario was actually more akin to what I was describing earlier, which is why I feel like I have more like, you know, emotion around it, which is where you have someone who's really well-intentioned and wants to help, but wants to help by getting you to not work and not talk about work. 10:21 And so that like, the way that looked was like, you know, I'm like, Hey, these are all the things that are stressing me out. And it's like, OK, enough talk about work for you. Let's talk about my day. And so, and I was like, man, I, I don't, I don't really care about your day. I'm still not done processing my day right now. 10:39 And so it is, The thing is, is like, if work is the thing that means the most to me in my life. And it's like I no longer can talk about the thing that I care about most. That's tough when I'm talking to the person that I care about most. 10:50 Speaker 1 So then going into our relationship, after you got out of those two relationships, what did you decide? 10:57 Speaker 2 Well, for me it was like, and I probably have better words for this now than I did then, but it was like I decided that my relationship with my goals was my most important relationship. And so I was like, I'm just not willing to sacrifice my relationship with that for anyone. And so that became one of my non negotiables going in. 11:13 Whereas before it wasn't a, it wasn't even a discussion because I just didn't, to be fair, I just didn't have that much experience with it overall, or at least the goals that I had of like studying hard or things like that were I guess more commonplace. But I was just like, this is the thing that matters most to me right now. And so like you can get on this train or you cannot, but like this train's leaving. 11:31 Speaker 1 Was that hard for you at 1st? 11:33 Speaker 2 No. 11:37 Speaker 1 I didn't think so. 11:40 Speaker 2 I mean, I mean at the beginning of our relationship. 11:42 Speaker 1 It's funny because like, I can't picture you even tolerating that. And I am just, I've never been that person, so I can't. But I see it happen all the time. You know it. 11:53 Speaker 2 Was, I mean, it was a decision, right? It was like this. I mean, it was, you know, it's like you, you learn through experience. You're like, OK, I thought this wouldn't matter. I thought the traditional setup would work. And I think maybe for some people it does. But for me, I was like, this is my life. This is like, these goals mean a lot to me. 12:12 And if I were to play out the alternative scenarios of like, I have a meaningful relationship, but I don't achieve any of my goals or I achieve my goals and I don't have a meaningful relationship. I would rather have the goals. But I think that there's a way where I could have the goals and the relationship as long as the relationship is aligned with my goals. 12:31 And so then you can have both. But I think a lot of people are afraid, and because they feel like the false choice exists and there is no alternative, they just choose well, I'd rather not be alone, which I can understand, but I think that I had been. I had never felt more alone than when I was in a relationship where I felt internal conflict between what I cared about most and who I cared about most. 12:53 Speaker 1 I think we both probably defined goals the same way, which is like the reason that the goals mean more than the person is because the goals are actually a relationship with yourself. 13:03 Speaker 2 So it really isn't a what I care about most and who I care about most. It's that you, it's like it feels selfish to say, but it's like you have to care about you more than you care about the relationship. And it's, I think it's very much that you have to put your air mask on before helping others. 13:19 You know, it's the the ethical work around that people have seemed to seem to sleep well with in society. But like, if you feel unfulfilled in what you do with the vast majority of your life, and most people will spend more time working than doing anything else in their lives, which is really just the relationship that you have with what you do on your own. 13:38 That's tough to sacrifice all of that just to not be alone. But The thing is, is like, I think that's a false answer. It's like you are alone because you're not able to be you. And so then you start having a split life where you're one person at work, which is who you really are. 13:53 And then you have one person that you have to act like at home. You can't talk about the same topics. You can't think the same things. Now, some people are like, well, I want to leave work at work, which is fine. It's just that's not how I work. I. 14:02 Speaker 1 Think it's also interesting because like when I was thinking about it, when you talk about like goals, I think most people when they hear us say that they think, oh, it's like work monetary goals. But I think there's so many different things that can be because we've seen it where it's not just that a spouse conflicts with AAI would say like a monetary goal, but like a spouse conflicts with personal goals, like health, like other relations, like so many other things that somebody's looking to achieve. 14:30 I mean, I would say health is probably one of the. 14:31 Speaker 2 First, yeah, let's stay in and eat Cheetos. And you're like, hey, I'm trying to like, no, it's like, hey, like, let's let's have some fun. It's like, well, that means that anytime that because when you say a statement like that, it also means that any time that I'm actually trying to pursue my goals, you are implying the opposite, that it is not fun. 14:48 And I'm like, I don't, I reject the premise. The reason I think this is so important is that when I look at my life and what I've achieved, who was in my corner had the largest influence on that. Like I look at what I was able to achieve on my own versus with someone who is actively working against me. 15:08 And I don't think that was deliberate by any stretch of the imagination. But just if we look at what happens as a result of this person, not intention, not desire, not goodwill, but just when this person is in my life, it is less likely that I achieve my goals. 15:23 Just simply saying it like that, I was less likely to achieve my goals. I had, I struggled with business in the early days and then when I went on my own, I did much, much better just working like basically if I removed interference, I simply did much better. 15:40 And then when you came in my life, not only did I remove interference, but I now had support. I had like before a bad day gets worse because the person feeds into the bad day and distracts and says, we, hey, we have these other, you know, things that are also important, which if that's what that person wants, that's fine. 15:57 It just might not mean that I'm the person for them, which obviously I wasn't once we were aligned. It's like you get your negatives become neutral and your positive become super positives. And I think I mean the difference. I mean, everybody in the world looks at the monetary change, but I look at the inner, you know, my, my personal change of who I was able to become as a result of having to support. 16:18 And I think the business growth was just a consequence of personal growth. 16:22 Speaker 1 I think why it's so important is also because you become like the people you spend this time with. And so when I look at myself and getting into the relationship with you, I'm like, I'm going to become more like him in some ways. Now, I would say that the more intelligent somebody is, the more deliberate they can be because I know some really intelligent people who are with people who are maybe not so intelligent. 16:43 They're very deliberate about not, you know, assimilating anything from that person. But I think, like, we've both learned a lot from each other. And what scares me is to think, what would you learn from a person if they are not someone that you aspire to be like? 16:57 Speaker 2 People pick their spouses like who do I want to become? Like they would pick very different spouses. 17:03 Speaker 1 I mean, I think it's, it's, it's such an interesting topic to me because growing up watching, you know, my parents got divorced and then they, they dated all these different people watching that and even just how much they changed and their personalities changed based on the person that they were with. 17:19 I immediately was like, oh, you become like these people that you date. And if they have big areas that you do not fuck with, you might, if you're not careful, you absorb those areas. And so I think it's really interesting 'cause I think one thing that we've actually, I'll just say, I think we've done well is we try to take the best from each other. 17:37 And then wherever I think, 'cause we're kind of like things that I like, I tend to stress more. And so I've learned a lot of acceptance from you, right? And then you tend to want to move really fast and you've learned patience from me. And so I would say like wherever each of us were like weaker, which I would say like in general, not weak, but like weaker. 17:57 We've learned from each other. And so it's also been like very complementary because there's no like big out points that either one of us have like absorbed. If anything, it's like a net positive for both. 18:08 Speaker 2 Yeah. And I think, you know, for me, I've learned kindness from you. I would say that I was much less empathetic in general. 18:17 Speaker 1 Less. 18:18 Speaker 2 Less than that. I know it's been a slow path, but no, I learned a lot of kindness from you and I think that just to a degree, you've also gotten some teeth from me. No, for real. Like I think that there were too many times like that I saw like in the early days of us, like even just dating, you had these relationships, friend or otherwise, that like you needed to be willing to cut and people that took advantage of you, that you needed to be able to be like, no, like basically more standing up for you. 18:55 Speaker 1 It's interesting because I feel like we both had those two degree. 18:57 Speaker 2 It's actually true. It's, I think it's domain specific, yeah. 19:01 Speaker 1 It's domain specific. And I think that it's that we listened to each other when we said like, hey, this person's not good for you because we knew that we were aligned in that I was helping you achieve your goals and you were helping me achieve my goals. Yeah. And I think that that's the interesting part about it is like there's so many times where somebody says quit the job, cut the friend, do all, and you can't even trust it because they don't, they're not aligned with your goals and somebody's not aligned with your goals and they have separate goals. 19:28 Then when they give you advice or they speak things to you about whatever your goals are, they're completely unaligned. I think that's the only like that's the major advantage we have is just that we have the same goal. Our paths there and how we want to develop ourselves within that greater goal are different, but we have that same big goal we're going towards. 19:45 So it's like, if you win faster, I win faster. So we just know that we're aligned in that sense. And I think that's something that a lot of people miss out on because they don't get aligned on. Are we trying to go the same place? 19:55 Speaker 2 Yeah, I think both of us have done a good job of protecting one another. 19:58 Speaker 1 And also, like, at times being like, you pick the fuck up, you know, there's been like a few times where you've been like, this is not a big deal. And I'll be like, OK, I believe you. You know what I mean? 20:13 Speaker 2 Interesting. You said I believe you rather than like, OK, I accept that, but it's like I believe you. It's actually a little bit different. 20:21 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think it's like just thinking about the the times where it's, there's been times I think for both of us that we've been like, we got this, like we don't need to, we don't need to divulge into this. This is not a problem. This is not. 20:36 And I just I feel like it is reduced the amount of drama for both of us in our lives. And personally, I think to such a degree that when I see these relationships where people are misaligned, it's almost like people want to capitalize on creating drama out of challenging situations for each other because it helps interfere with the other person's goal, which is good for this person because they don't want them to achieve their goals because then it means something for them that's bad. 21:03 They lose more of this person's time. They lose more of their interest. They become further grown apart. So it's like they're constantly trying to prevent this person from cheating their goals, and so it's like they capitalize. 21:13 Speaker 2 Or not, right? 21:14 Speaker 1 Are. 21:14 Speaker 2 They conscious of it or not. 21:16 Speaker 1 That's what's crazy is that I think everyone listens to like toxic people. It's like, I don't think anybody, most people in general, like I would not say are toxic. It's that they're misaligned, but then you call them toxic because they're misaligned. So it's just twisted. It's like you have the nicest person in the world, but if they're completely misaligned with you, it's just still not going to help. 21:36 Speaker 2 You, I mean, I think the biggest filter that I've used for friendships and you know, significant other obviously is, does having this person in my life increase the likelihood that hit my goals? And I've just used that as my 100% razor for all relationships, friends or otherwise. 21:51 And that also means that you can have somebody who you don't necessarily want to be friends with for a very long time, but if they increase the likelihood to jet your goals, then there are things that you can learn from them. And I think that's been really valuable for me. And I think also there's a temporal component. So like, I mean, we talk about seasons a lot, right? 22:09 And I think that a spouse who's not in the know or a significant other who's not in the know extrapolates everything to forever. Like whatever happens now is what it's going to be like forever. And then therefore I can't deal with it. 22:21 Speaker 1 Seen a lot of that recently. It's interesting, actually. 22:25 Speaker 2 Right. And so. 22:26 Speaker 1 Yeah. And because of that, I need you to not do these things that are going to help propel you towards your goals. Because I can't endure a season, right? And. 22:36 Speaker 2 It's typically because that person's never even seen a person go through a season. So if you go from being, you know, basically I'll use it like a simple me business owner example. It's like, well, if you've, if you're starting a business then and you've been in a relationship with the person for a year or two, then it's like they've only seen that one thing and they don't even know what a season looks like. 22:56 And I think seasons do last longer. So as seasons are sometimes three years, five years, and some people aren't willing to deal with that, which I think is fine. It's just that if you are being influenced by that person, then be sure that that's the trade you want to make. It's. 23:09 Speaker 1 Interesting because when I was listening to because. 23:11 Speaker 2 Some trains only take off once. 23:14 Speaker 1 Let's tweet. Was it Jensen? And it's funny because like, he's one of the most successful people in this world. And I mean, he talked about it. He was like, I have unwavering support and not even just support, but encouragement for everyone around me. 23:31 He's like, and I do not think that anybody can achieve outlandish goals without that. It is a requirement, not a luxury. And when he said that, I was like, man, it's a requirement to have people like this around you. And that really made me think about like, we have people come to us all the time and say, I have these goals. 23:51 And what's hard for me is when they want help with every single thing besides the things that they don't want to look at, which are who are you surrounding yourself with in and outside of work? I don't want to touch what people do outside of work, but it has more influence. I mean, there's so many studies on this. 24:07 Who you're with outside of work has more influence on your work than inside of work. It's so difficult because it's like, how do you toe the line between, I genuinely want to help people. I want them to achieve their goals, whether they be here or somewhere else. I also have my own. 24:23 I know in their perspective, they're like, well, Leila obviously wants me to work harder and be here. And also it's like, I don't actually give a shit. Like in general, I want you to be the best human you can be, but I also have. 24:34 Speaker 2 I want you to work harder. 24:36 Speaker 1 For sure. But it's, it's been such an interesting line to tell because I can see so plain as day when it's interfering with someone's goals, even when it doesn't seem, it's not insidious, it never is. 24:51 It's never, it's not because the easy ones are the ones that are just like, yeah, you should break up with that person. They're hitting you, you know what I mean? Or, or whatever. But it's always the difficult ones. And then it's, it's just interesting to see that. 25:02 Speaker 2 And we were talking about this and so when, when we, when we got thinking about the, the word requirements, right? Like this is a requirement for success. This is a requirement for the next level. And maybe this spouse can support you up to this level of your career, but will not be able to support you for the next level. So it's in some ways it's like that spouse, I think, you know, there's some Michelle Obama quote or something like that, but basically it's like, or she does some quip that if she had dated a different guy, that guy would have become president, whatever it is. 25:31 Oh, interesting in so far to say that her sport was so meaningful that that's, you know, one of the things that got Obama elected. But I think that there's, there's elements of truth to that concept, which is there are some, there are some significant others and some significant spouses that may only be able to be with you for this season. 25:51 And then that's a tough, it's a tough reality that you'll have to face, which is either they need to change or you do, which often means you have to change your goals, which means you change yourself, or they have to change what they're willing to tolerate or what they're willing to accept or you just find other people. And I think a lot of people really don't like that. 26:06 Speaker 1 Yeah. 26:07 Speaker 2 But when we were talking about this with regards to teammates, we even were like tossing around the idea of like, maybe we should be interviewing spouses because it has such AI mean it has a perfect correlation. We could not find a single person that became not only started well, but then continued to rise. 26:25 And what was interesting is there were some people who we who started, who had higher potential when they came into our companies, but then slowly faded or fizzled or got distracted or, you know, like just it, it was clear that things they, their priorities changed, right? 26:41 And in every one of those situations, there was a spouse who was pooling them out. And on the other hand, we had people who I would say had mediocre potential, but then we just kept seeing them just like improve and get better. And then we'd finally meet the spouse and be like, oh, this makes complete sense 'cause you know, in a guy situation, you know, the wife's like, whatever he needs so that he can do a good job, I'm here to support. 27:04 So like I've got the home front down. If he needs to work weekends or he has to work late, I get it. Like, you know, you guys have a job to do and he he loves his job and he loves this work. He finds it really meaningful. And I just want to support him in that because I love seeing him get his dreams, you know, his dreams come true like that. 27:20 Like when you have that at home, it's it's really hard to fail too. 27:24 Speaker 1 I mean, I think of like, you know, yeah, it's me and how like unwavering is the opposite, yes, but that's my reality, right? Which and Ricky would literally do anything. He wore the gemonde swag, he wore the hat, he ran races in the gemonde swag. 27:42 And he came when he could to like any company thing. And he'd be like, love you guys, you know, like, just like all he did was try and support her so much that now he works here and they work together because he, even when times were hard, he would message me and be like, she needs a little extra encouragement today. 27:58 Like how like, and I know she'd get so pissed off when she would find out that he would message me, but I was like, we're both trying to help her achieve her goals. And that is like, I, I think about like why she's always been able to continuously improve and, and impress me with like how much she can take on. 28:15 And it's because there's just, it's like, if you were to test him, he's like, no, this is what's best for her. She's growing, she's investing in herself. We we're gonna figure it out. And like, they're such a great team and how they work towards that. And then she does that for him too. But it always really impressed me. 28:30 You know, I think that's like we see Maggie and Kale like how they were able to take on gym launch, just like unwavering support in both directions. And The thing is, I think people think when you work in the same business that it's like, oh, you, you get the luxury of like having the same schedules and the same this. It's like we so often it's completely opposite. 28:47 So it's like, you'll be like, hey, I'm not going to make it for dinner. I'm like, cool. 28:50 Speaker 2 I go to the speaking thing. 28:51 Speaker 1 You want me to make you oatmeals when you get home, You got this thing. Do you want to? You know what I mean? Or I'm like, hey, I can't, you know, have lunch together. Do this because like I'm handling this thing over. It's like, Yep, got it. Understood. Like. 29:00 Speaker 2 I want to hit on the Megan Kellogg because I think it's really interesting. So and I think it when, when and if they listen to this, they, they won't take this, they'll take it the right way. I mean, Kale came in as a frontline sales Rep, Maggie came in as a frontline customer service. 29:19 And both of them over years worked their way up to the top 2 positions in that company. And so I see that as when we talk about potential versus actual, they came in with few experiential skills, but because both of them reinforced working hard and doing a good job and did this with a new, a newborn kid and a young child. 29:44 And, you know, the, the gym that they had in the beginning, which they eventually, you know, sold and then continued to go more all in on this. Like that is the virtuous cycle of having a supportive spouse who gets what they, they, they see themselves as a unit. So they think of, and I think this is probably one of the bigger meta things between couples is that unless you see the unit as one, it becomes very difficult to be supportive. 30:11 And I also think that there is a high degree of trust between the spouses and us. So like with Yas, for example, it's like, I think Ricky knows that we just wanna like, we just wanna like, we're never. 30:24 Speaker 1 Gonna. 30:25 Speaker 2 Like we just wanna help. Like in whatever way we can. We just wanna help. And I think there's trust there. And so if, if we were like, hey Ricky, I think she needs to work 7 days straight and she can't see the kids, which we would, we would not ask that. But I'm just saying like, you know, like that's my hypothetical extreme. 30:42 He'd be like, if they're asking for this, they understand the cost and they still think it's worth it for her. And so there's a level of trust there. And I think that that takes time to build and whatnot. But, and obviously it takes character and and a track record to show that you have consistently delivered on the promises that you've made. 31:04 But I think that's how you create lifers in terms of like, it's really just like families being involved in the success of a company and building a team more than just individuals. 31:14 Speaker 1 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. And I think that peace on the unit too. It's like I even think about the verbiage we use with each other. It's like we're always like, thank God there's two of us all the time, literally like all the time. And I don't see it like when it's so interesting when people like, do you feel competitive? 31:30 And I'm like, we're what? Like I'm like, I, I enable so that he can win. You enable so that I can win. We know what we're both focused on and how we went together. It's such an interesting question because it's like, I even think people even sometimes closer to us are like, Oh well, it's like people don't know how close we really are. 31:52 You know, how In Sync we are. 31:54 Speaker 2 Yeah, that one's so interesting because I've heard you've been on a podcaster. Like, do you feel competitive with Alex? It's like it. It's like almost a demonstration of how little you understand our relationship. 32:05 Speaker 1 Like I create the environment for him to be competitive with other people. 32:08 Speaker 2 Right. We are very competitive against other people. 32:11 Speaker 1 Yeah, it's like, it's like being on the football team and you're like watching somebody's. It just makes no sense. 32:18 Speaker 2 Like if you're captain the cheerleading team, you for some reason don't want the quarterback to score the winning touchdown because you want to look better than the quarterback does that day. But if the team wins, everyone wins. 32:29 Speaker 1 Yeah, it is. Yeah. So interesting. And I I'm trying to think of like, I don't even know what creates because there are people that can be married or working together, but they don't have that level of all in. They're not a team. 32:42 Speaker 2 They're not all in. 32:43 Speaker 1 Yeah, I don't know where that comes from. The only thing I can think is US eating shit for two years. But. 32:47 Speaker 2 I do think that this is me being a little pro marriage. I do think that things feel different when you get married because I remember when we got married and for us it was, it wasn't a, we didn't have a, a wedding. We just signed paperwork and we were officially married. 33:04 We worked that morning and then we worked the next day. But I think there was a huge backdoor anxiety, you know, or like worry of like that one potential of like, are they really in? And then I think at that point you can really just say like, This Is Us, like this is our family, this is our unit, this is, this is how this benefits the whole. 33:28 And then the decisions should, in my opinion, should get made from there. I think a lot of couples just never even get there, even when they are married, 'cause I mean, marriage is still just like a legal contract. But at least for me, I intended to not get married again. And so it was like, all right, well, we're all in. 33:44 We will make this work as long as you're both oriented towards growing. 33:48 Speaker 1 I think that's actually the key, which is like we both said, like, I don't want to have to be married twice. I want to be all in because we're both like, I don't want to have to this to be. I mean, the the drama and the ups and downs of people that have to get divorced and do all this stuff. It's just like a waste of life. 34:04 And so it's like, I think we both went in the fundamental belief that if we need to change, we will to make it work. And I think we have both adapted to each other in many ways that has also made us each better in our own. And I think we always look at it as like, you know, like this will make me better as well. 34:23 If it wouldn't, then that would be like, OK, if I would have to change, it's going to make me worse as a person. And it's not aligned with my values. Sure. But like, in what instance has that have occurred? Never. It's always makes us better. 34:34 Speaker 2 Yeah, I think the, the big one was the the goal and mission alignment. Because if that I think that like under what Cause I've, I think like, you know what, under what context would we not be together, right. It would be if one of our goals, if we didn't want the same thing, fundamentally. 34:52 And I think that's really just what it comes down to. And I think a lot of people don't pick their spouses based on what their shared goals are. I mean, some people don't even talk about their goals before they get married, which I find ridiculous. That was like our first date. I was like, yeah, first date. I was like, this is what I want to do. Would you like to come with me? 35:07 Speaker 1 Yeah. But I think that that's not it's because most people don't know their goals. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah, and I think even now, like we're able to articulate our goals so much better than we were in the beginning. We just knew we were like, trying to fucking go places, you know what I mean? And like, I'll do whatever it takes. 35:24 Hunger. 35:25 Speaker 2 But it's been like, and if the if the goal shifted, it was more like it got clearer more than it changed. Yeah, it was blurry, but it was like in the beginning, it was directional. It was like, I want to go this way and we'll figure it out as we go. But it's if one day you were like, I don't want to to build these things. 35:42 I don't want to build hospitals and build cities and do this, you know, all this like see what two people can do in one lifetime. I would, it would be very hard for me because it would be asking me to not be me. And I don't know if I would be able to do that. I. 35:55 Speaker 1 Wouldn't expect you to, no. 35:57 Speaker 2 And I think that I'm, I'm, I'm saying I think fundamentally because we both shared that goal the whole time we've, it, it's, we've never, I've never felt like I've, I mean, we get probably, I'm sure lots of Flack from the Internet for this, but like, I've never felt like I've had to make sacrifices for you. 36:12 Like I haven't had to compromise my goals, which is another way of saying I haven't had to compromise myself in order to be in our relationship. 36:18 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think I was really nervous in the beginning and then over time you only continually reinforced to me that I could be myself because it was so many years of conditioning to hide what I really wanted. And I think that's actually like what you've taught me a lot is just like complete self acceptance. 36:37 A lot of it has been like me just sharing things with you of like how I really feel or like somebody say like the dark side or like dark desires and the things that I want that feel in contrast with what maybe society projects on what I should want. And you've always just been like incredibly accepting every time, even like when I was like, dude, I don't want to make dinner every night. 36:57 I don't want to do all this stuff. And like, I was really worried. I was like, Oh my gosh, like this is. But I was like, it's not aligned with my goals. Like me cooking dinner every night to be a Good Wife. I value myself here. Leading people, making people's lives better. That lights me up. Making lasagna does not. 37:14 And you were like, I don't even give a fuck. 37:16 Speaker 2 I said if you want to make dinner, I will be happy that you made dinner. If you want to make money, I will be happy that you made money. 37:24 Speaker 1 I mean, I think the question that people need to ask themselves is does this person make it easier or harder to achieve my goals? And it doesn't mean that they're actively trying to sabotage you it. 37:34 Speaker 2 Doesn't mean they're a bad person. 37:35 Speaker 1 No, it doesn't mean any of that. It's just like it's that simple of a question. Also, I think the the proxy to that is like, do I respect myself more or less being in a relationship with this person? That's something that I prompted to, you know, a friend of mine months ago when they were trying to navigate a really tough relationship. 37:53 And I was like, do you, I watch you lose respect for yourself every day that you're in a relationship because this person is actually, you're trying to go towards your goals and they're actively dragging you away. It was somewhat active sabotage. 38:09 And then it's like, not only are you not going towards your goals, but you're actually degrading your sense of self. 38:17 Speaker 2 I think it's also the like, what traits about this person do I admire #1 because whatever they have is going to rub off on me. And then if I see myself with a blend of my traits and theirs, does that new person, is that new person more or less likely to achieve my current goals? 38:37 And so like, I know that I need to be more patient. And so you having patience is like, yeah, if I had some of that rub off, I mean, that'd be a good thing. Hey, if I was a little more empathetic, that would probably rub off. That'd probably be a good thing. That'd probably increase the likely that it hit my goals. And I think a lot of people have really mid like significant others just really like like just a human. 39:00 Great. Congrats. They're like this person did not leave when I was there. It's like, well, that's cool. It's. 39:07 Speaker 1 Actually interesting, like 'cause we even met somebody who said, like, I met this girl on a date and she just never left and that was why they were with them. They're like, yeah, she like brought her bags and then we just like. 39:19 Speaker 2 First date kept dating. 39:20 Speaker 1 I was like, do you ever pause to think that this is the right person for you? 39:24 Speaker 2 Yeah, she just hung around again. It's like just like I, I love the the sort of Gryffindor from Harry Potter. I say it again, but it, it had a enchantment on it, which was it only drinks in that, which makes it stronger. And I think it's like you're going to, you are that metal, you are that sword, and you're going to be putting yourself into a bath with this other person. 39:44 But you may not only take in that which makes you stronger, you may just take in everything and that may end up making you weaker. And when I say weaker, I mean less likely to achieve the things that you want or become the person that you want to become. And I think it's just, I think it's very hard for people because everyone is just so afraid of being alone. 40:01 And I think maybe the first step is being OK with being alone, being like I. I would rather be with just me than be with someone who makes me less like me in order to be with them. 40:13 Speaker 1 I mean, I remember well before we met, I'd been alone for like almost 2 years. I got out a bad relationship and I was like, what am I doing? I don't want to recreate that again, you know? And I think being alone was, it's just never. 40:29 And Even so, like even now, if I'm like, I like, we both actually really like alone time, which I think is really important in terms of like there's, we don't have like high requirements, you know what I mean? Everything's such a bonus, which I think is actually what I really like is things that when I was young, we're told like you need, you have needs, you have emotional needs, you have these. 40:52 The thing is all a fucking lie. And I think it's actually really unhealthy if you have to put quote needs upon a partner. And I think I've become such a better person and a better spouse for looking at things as like bonuses, like if we get to spend an afternoon together on Sunday afternoon bonus. 41:09 But if you tell me that you have to work or I tell you that I have to work, fine, I'm not gonna be upset about it. I'm gonna go do stuff for myself, right? Like. 41:18 Speaker 2 A lot of people don't know how to be busy. Basically, a lot of people have nothing going on in their lives. And so they require their spouse or significant other for attention, affection and approval. They need them. Yeah, they're like, hey, I'm bored. Entertain me. And some people literally say that, which I find ridiculous. 41:35 But I think a really good limits test is what is this person entering my life change about my behavior. And so thinking, OK, when I'm on my own, I work out like this, I eat like this, I work like this, I go to sleep at this time. These are the social things that I find meaningful or interesting. 41:53 Now, when this person enters my life, how many of those things that when I had nothing interfering with me, change in their expression? Do I work less? Do I workout less? Do I eat differently? Do I spend my time differently? Well, if that occurs, then all of those changes will certainly change the outputs of your life. 42:10 And are those changes the outputs? Changes to the outputs what you want? And I think most people, if they really looked at themselves in the mirror, be like, no. 42:18 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think it's something really interesting that I want to actually prompt you for, which was if you remember the person who when you decided that you think thought. So we broke up. Let's rewind. We were dating, we'd been working together for like 8 months and then we broke up. 42:37 That this was the breakup for anyone watching. Alex was not talking to me much. And so I went into his office because we were working together and I said, do you want to break up? And you said yes. And then we broke up. There was no drama, there was no fight. And then I was like, I'm still going. 42:51 Speaker 2 To launch this, I think you said Do you want me to leave I? 42:55 Speaker 1 Don't remember. I think I thought it was, Do you want to break up? Either way? Maybe. Either way, sure. Then it was like, OK, but we're still going to work together. 43:07 Speaker 2 I want to still talk every day after that. 43:08 Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm going to launch this gym. And then during that time we still worked together, but we don't. We talked at the end of the day and I'll call you and tell you like what was going on at the facility, what happened and what was the conversation that you had during that time? Because I always thought that was such a great way for like, if somebody's watching this and they don't know how to know if somebody's right for them, that somebody could use as a measurement tool. 43:32 Speaker 2 So I say two things that were kind of the most significant from that. So 1 is how Leila handled the exit gave me such great insight to her character, which was like, it would be really normal. I would say 9599 times out of 100, if I've been in a relationship where someone had left what they were doing to come with me and then, you know, we break up for whatever reason, they would probably just be like, screw this guy and everything associated with him. 44:04 But I mean, I've always said like used to tall when things were crumbling around me. The reason that for me, when you, as I recall it said, do you want me to leave? The answer is yes, because I was so overwhelmed. I had no bandwidth for anything. I was dealing with the DUI thing. I was dealing with the the the fraudulent partner. 44:21 I had two other partners that were asking for me to do things and not like 3 or 4 different businesses at the same time. I had nothing like I had no bandwidth. I had zero attention. And so it was more like I just can't right now. Like I don't even the idea of a relationship is so low on my priorities list right now that when she left it just, it just, it was just basically less guilt around not doing what I was quote supposed to be doing or thought I should be doing. 44:45 And so it gave me some attention back so I could create room. And so the first thing was how you behaved on the exit was so classy and so filled with character and all the traits that I would deem admirable. 45:00 You still showed loyalty when I basically didn't show you any. And then you showed me respect when I probably wasn't respectable in that moment. I wasn't worthy of respect given how much my life was in shambles at that moment. 45:16 And I think that was probably big thing number one of like pro Layla. The other was that I saw a coach for 90 minutes every day during the time that you were gone for probably like 5 weeks, something like that. 45:32 And during those 90 minutes every day, he would start with what's top of mind, like what's on your mind, what's taking your attention. And so you just slowly would just start stripping away, like, OK, let's deal with this, let's deal with this, let's deal with this. Just like kept working through this list and when it came to, OK, So what are you going to do about this girl? 45:53 Because we're still talking every day, right? 45:55 Speaker 1 Only about work though. 45:56 Speaker 2 Yeah, which was amazing. 45:59 Speaker 1 What do we do now? 46:00 Speaker 2 Yeah, I know. Nothing's changed. And so he said, well, look at your stats. And I was like, what do you mean? He was like, look at your stats. He's like, when she's in your life, he's like, do you work out more or do you work out less? And I was like, well, she works out. 46:15 So when she goes to the gym, Oh my God, I'll, I'll go. And if I want to go, she goes. So it's like we both, if one of us goes, the other one goes. And so I work out more because every time she wants to go, I don't want to go. I still go. He's like, OK, he's like, what about food? He's like, like, are you eating healthier or you're not eating? I was like, well, she preps food and she eats healthy. 46:33 And so whatever she makes, it's I'll eat, right? And so yeah, I'm actually, you know, I'm eating better, meet a little healthier. And he was like, OK, plus he's like, what about what about work? Does she support you with your work? And I was like, I mean, yeah, literally, she actually does the work with me. 46:51 And I will literally take people when I'm busy so that I can stay, you know, like she'll, she basically protects my space. And he's like, OK, does she spend money? Do you make more now, just objectively than you did before? 47:06 And I was like, yeah, way more. He's like, huh, So you're healthier, you work out more, you make more money. You have somebody who's not draining, not even neutral, but adding to your financial goals and is helping you focus on. 47:26 Because another part of this was I had all these different businesses. He's like, is she in favor of you having all this stuff, or is she in favor of you focusing on one thing? And I was like, she just says focus on this one thing that's working. He was like, so she has good decision making. And I was like, yeah, so she helps you make good decisions. 47:42 And so basically we just went column by column and everything was up. And he was like, maybe something to consider. And so when Layla came back, I basically just told her this exact same thing. And I was like, when I am with you, I am better. 47:59 And so I would like to be better. And so I would like to be with you. And so I think fundamentally, that was one of the main decision points in our relationship. And when she went there also as a side note, so she showed me loyalty, she showed me respect, but also you crushed it. 48:17 So it wasn't just like that. You went through the motions when you went and did that launch when I wasn't there, you set the all time record. And I think that was so telling for me about the type of person you were because like, I was always used to being the guy who had to put hit, you know, the team on, you know, his back or whatever to win the game. 48:37 And it was just nice to have somebody else who could also, when the game was on the line, fucking crush. And so I was like, man, if there's two of us who can win when the game's on the line, then every time I I wasn't going to win. If you win, then it just increases the likelihood we both win. 48:55 And so I think for all those reasons, it became a logical decision to be with you. And I think there's AI think there's a lot of wisdom in this, this one part, which is if you stay together, if you are together because of your emotions, you will want to not be together when your emotions change and emotions change all the time. 49:14 But logic rarely does. And so if it logically makes sense for you to be together, then when you're emotional, the logic will still be there. It still makes sense for us to be together. And I think that's what allow has, at least for me, allowed me to have very little second guessing concern. 49:32 It's just been like, no, this makes sense. Like there's, there, this makes complete sense. There's no I've, I've, I've very little air. There's very little movement in that for me. 49:42 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think it's, I think it was harder in the beginning and it gets easier over time. Like I think in the beginning we put in a lot of work. I think about it and I think that we've gotten to like, I don't know if like reap the reward of that over time. 50:01 Like it feels like it actually gets easier with time. 50:03 Speaker 2 It was a bet in the beginning. 50:05 Speaker 1 Yeah, because it was so different from what either of us ever knew. 50:08 Speaker 2 Totally. 50:09 Speaker 1 But it just, and I think the first three years were really tough. 50:12 Speaker 2 First 3. 50:14 Speaker 1 But like now it just feels like just momentum, you know what I mean? Like our partnership, how we work together, how we understand each other, all those things take years to figure. 50:25 Speaker 2 Out. I have a question for you. OK, so when you were away and then you came back, why did you decide to get back in the relationship? 50:35 Speaker 1 I think I just really understood where you were coming from when we, when we broke up. Like I saw how things were when you were like, yeah, I want you to leave or break up or whatever. I was like, yeah, that makes sense. 50:51 I didn't take it personally. It wasn't personal. And I saw glimpses of you when you were not so stressed and inundated with all these decisions. And I really liked who that person was. And I felt like that we could really make each other better. 51:08 And so I think that was part of it is like I didn't, I didn't take it personally and I wasn't humiliated, embarrassed, angered. Like I wasn't angry about it. I didn't hold it against you in any way. So like the event itself of breaking up like was not a thing for me. 51:25 I think that if I rewind when I met you I had had a list of all the character traits that I wanted in a person as well as like non negotiables and I remember that you matched. 51:38 Speaker 2 I broke all of those things I was just checking. 51:39 Speaker 1 DUI broke that happened after Yeah catch 22 to be clear. 51:43 Speaker 2 I wasn't broke when Lillian had. I became broke. 51:47 Speaker 1 Did that to myself, yeah. And so I think that I grounded myself in that logic and I saw that I, you represented a lot of things that I had deficiencies in. 52:05 I think that like complete self acceptance. I don't know if you remember this, you know what I'm going to say like it was like our second date or something barely knew each other and like you walked out of your room butt ass naked. I remember this and you were on the phone and I was like, is he going to come on? Like what is going on? And then I literally remember you were like, what? 52:22 And I was like, why? And you were like, I like walking around naked. And I, it's like such a little thing, but it was like, wow, I judge myself so much that I don't even want to walk around naked to see myself because of how critical I am. And I was like, wow, that's like so freeing. 52:41 They must feel so freeing to be able to do that and also do it in front of somebody and not care what they're going to think or say. It's you just like so many things. The second was, you know, like, I think you told me on like our second date, like the worst things that you'd ever done. 52:58 Like you're basically, these are the worst things about myself, the worst things I've ever done. And I don't want any secrets. And I recognize that I again, judged myself so harshly for so many things that I'd done in the past that it like crippled me with insecurity. And they weren't even things that were a big deal, but they were a big deal because I kept them to myself. 53:18 And so I think that along the way before that incident happened, like I just recognized I had so much that I could learn from you. And I thought that you would make me better because I recognized like those were things that I lacked myself. And I believed that if I partnered with somebody who had those things, and I did recognize as well the things that maybe you were looking for that I had. 53:39 It felt like a mutual exchange, like we got to take the best of each other and it would make both of us better. And honestly, I grounded myself in the logic the whole time, which was just like, this makes sense to me. And I think that I had read a lot about lasting relationships and how the relationships that made the most sense logically are the ones that last longest. 54:01 And all my relationships prior to that had been easy in the beginning, harder later on. This had been harder in the beginning. And it has continued to get easier as time has gone on. Like now it feels like riding a bicycle. It's just like, I understand you, you understand me? We know how to work together. 54:17 It only gets better over time and so it's really panned out. 54:22 Speaker 2 I think the exchange thing is really interesting because I don't think I ever felt like I had an exchange with the person that I was that I was dating. What do you mean? Like, I never felt like I never even felt transactional at all, with the exception of you. Oh, and I mean, this was almost like an ongoing joke for the first like, year of our relationship. 54:43 I kept telling saying to Layla, like, I don't know if you're just like trying to absorb all the things that I know and then you're just going to leave with all of my skills. Like it just, I felt like she would just like nonstop be like, can you teach me how to do this? Can you show me how to do this? Like, and I, I mean, I did have a lot of skills and I was like, yeah, like, you know, like you don't need to worry too much about that. 55:03 Like I'll, I'll, I'll keep running the ads. Like you don't need to worry how how that works 'cause I was so afraid that she would actually like. 55:09 Speaker 1 Thought I was slippery. 55:09 Speaker 2 Yeah, this is my own insecurity. I thought that she would like if I, if I taught her everything, I knew that she would have no more use for me. And so I mean, and probably on some level that's my own insecurity for always wanting to be useful for everyone, like always having skills to exchange. 55:25 But, but anyways, no one we, but I also learned a ton from you and I, I think we talked about exchange a lot in the early days of our relationship, mutual exchange. And I, I just think that I don't think that that's common. 55:40 Speaker 1 Yeah, like how are we going to add value to each other's lives? Yeah, what? 55:42 Speaker 2 Are you going to learn from me? What am I going to learn from you? 55:44 Speaker 1 I think it's interesting because like when I think when I hear somebody say like, should I just accept the fact that this person is not supportive? I think it's just a trade off, which is like you can keep them in your life, but you will lose respect for yourself and you will likely also sacrifice these other things that you want. 56:04 And so it's like you could keep them in your life at what cost? And are you willing to pay the price of that? And some people are, and I think a lot of people aren't. But I think I always relate it back to like, if being in a relationship with this person, I lose respect for myself, then all is lost. 56:24 And I've been in relationships where I realized that I was losing respect for myself every day because they made me a worse person. And it didn't matter like their intention or how great they were in many different ways or how nice they were or anything. The fact that their influence was something that I had to fight or try and deflect in order to achieve my goals. 56:47 I had won an internal conflict, which was like, I say, I want these things, but I'm not willing to do what it takes because I'm not willing to get this person out of my life. And I under all, you know, even if I've been with this person for years, I knew that they weren't the person that was going to help me get to where I wanted to go. 57:06 And then I had this internal conflict of like, what do I do? Because I love this person. I care for this person. I don't think they're a bad person. I also feel like if I have them in my life, I can't achieve my goals. That conflict enough was enough for me to exit multiple relationships because I recognized it distracted me from everything. 57:26 It distracted me from the relationship. It distracted me from my goals and it distracted me from even just like being alone with myself and my thoughts. And so in a lot of ways, I didn't think it was worth the drama. I say drama isn't distraction drama, whatever that it creates and you're minded in your life. 57:42 And so even if you maintain it, I think the fact that you know, it, it interferes with the things that you want creates enough drama that I'm just like, I'm out. I I don't have a tolerance for that. 57:54 Speaker 2 I think for me it was I've always had a greater fear of not living up to my potential than I have being alone. And so for me that is the greater motivator. And I think a lot of people have a greater fear of being alone than not living up to their potential. 58:08 Speaker 1 Yeah, I do think that's the root of it. 58:11 Speaker 2 I mean, it's just what do you fear most? And that's from an away from, you could flip it towards whatever. I'd rather have a meaningful relationship than achieve my goals or become the ultimate version of myself, Said said in a positive tone. 58:27 But I think if you, let's say you were listening to this or you're watching this and you're like, no, I do think I would rather become the ultimate version of me. And I don't think this person is the person. I think trying to break down what feels like a big event into like breaking up with somebody into its constituent parts makes it a lot easier to do. 58:54 And so it's like, I don't want to break up with so. And so it's like, well, what it means, it's like, and I, I, I overly simplify things on purpose to try and make them less intimidating. So it's like I have to vibrate my vocal cords in the direction of this person. And then after I do that, after a certain period of time, that person will leave and then I will have to call a moving company in order to remove that person's belongings from my vicinity. 59:14 Speaker 1 We will have to determine what happens with the animals. We will have to determine, yeah. 59:18 Speaker 2 And then like, and I will and like again once because The thing is, once you make that big break, then it's like, I, I don't care. Like animals are not, you know what I mean? They're not going to help me become the version of myself or whatever, right? No. 59:31 Speaker 1 I'm just saying like logistics. 59:32 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. No, totally. Yeah, Yeah. Or I have to move to a different city. Now it's like, OK, well, then I have to book a flight and I have to rent someplace. And So what we have now are expenses, not problems. 59:42 Speaker 1 I think that there's a lot of conditioning and I think this is something that I've actually seen a couple people that we know do it really well where like, it has to be a very bad thing, right? But if you're breaking up with somebody in order to get into a relationship with yourself and with your goals, why would you not be happy about that? 59:59 Yes, you're going to feel loss, which can cause you to feel sad, but you also fill that hole with something that you were you had sacrificed the entire time. And so I think there's so much stigma around it. I should feel sad for a certain period of time when I was with this person for a period of time. 1:00:18 And. People feed into it too of like, Oh my gosh. 1:00:22 Speaker 2 Half the amount of time to get a relationship. 1:00:24 Speaker 1 Exactly. It's bullshit. And I think, you know, before I met you, I was in a relationship and then I went to a therapist and she was probably like the only good therapist I've ever seen. And I remember I said like, you know, I just feel really sad because I'm not with this person anymore. And she said, well, when did you break up? 1:00:39 And I was like, well, you know, seven weeks ago, whatever. It's almost been two months. I was like, but I heard it takes half the time that you're with somebody to get over somebody. She was like, I think that's stupid. And I was like, stupid. And I remember she was like, I think takes as long as you want it to Layla. 1:00:56 I was like, OK, So what does that mean? She's like, how about Thursday? And I was like, what? And she's like, yeah, how about by Thursday, you're over it? And I was like, what does that mean? She's like, we stopped talking about it and you move on. And it was so funny because it's like my relationship prior to that one, I would say like I had dwelled on the breakup and it had been like a whole mess of a thing for months. 1:01:20 And it like distracted me from moving off my life. It I didn't feel any better about myself for it. I certainly wasn't happy. And this time it was like, I actually maintain a, a fairly positive view of the relationship because the way it ended was not so traumatic. 1:01:36 I just moved on with my life and I think so many people, they use words like heartbroke. I am heartbroken. I, I feel like a part of me has died. It's like, no, your heart has not broken. Nothing has died. You are no longer in a relationship with somebody and the reality is you're going to find somebody else and fucking forget about them in five years. 1:01:55 Speaker 2 So said said in terms of behaviorism, you have a contingency of positive reinforcement that has been removed from your life. Yeah, replacement. So what happens is you simply like getting over someone is simply how quickly can you replace the source of positive reinforcement? 1:02:13 That's literally it. And so I think that for my life, I've, I've been, maybe this isn't shocking to people shockingly resilient to breakups, like to the point of people being like, you must be a sociopath. 1:02:29 But I think that I've just always had this big bucket of positive reinforcement that I get from my work that basically whatever hole is there, I can fill it with the thing that I want to do with all my time anyways. And so it's like, oh, cool, I have this empty hole and I'll just pour the stuff that I love doing anyways into that hole. 1:02:44 And then I'm like, basically I have the same amount of positive reinforcement in life. It just switched sources. And this is where some, you know, there's old adages like, you know, the way to get over somebody is to is to find somebody else, right? And some people hate that idea. But I actually think it's fundamentally it's just true. 1:03:00 Some people have social, you know, societal norms. It's like, why is it that at six months it's OK to start dating somebody else? It's like, well, you have to process. It's like, what does processing even mean? It's like, you have to be good. You have to be good on your own, which I agree with. But I think that just means that you have to know how to find positive reinforcement stimuli in your life on your own so that you can't, so you are not beholden to someone. 1:03:21 Because if I require this person's positive reinforcement in order to exist, then it's codependency in my, in my, my view of the world. And so I think I, so I just walked somebody in our company through this, but I wanted to give him warning flags. 1:03:39 I said, so this is what's going to happen. You're going to have this conversation, you're going to figure out the logistics of, you know, moving, you know, separating belongings, whatever. I was like, and then what's going to happen is the first week, you know, you're going to have all this time that you didn't know you had. And I was like, and I would encourage you to fill it with the work that you find the most meaningful and with some of the habits that you wanted to do when you were in the relationship, but you couldn't do for logistical constraints or whatever. 1:04:03 Like they don't want to work out. You want to work out whatever it's like, so fill it with that stuff. Now, in a few weeks after that, what you'll start feeling is again a longing for that person. And that is again a reminder of the positive reinforcement that you used to have. The issue is that negatives fade with time. 1:04:21 Positives remain. And so by the way, this is just why in general, like when you train with reward versus punishment, reward sticks. Punishment doesn't. And so that's why when you drink and you have a hangover the next day, you're like, I'll never drink again in the next weekend. You're drinking because the punishment of drinking has faded in terms of its importance to you, but the positive reward associated with drinking hasn't. 1:04:40 And so that's why you keep going back. And so the bad relationships are a lot like drinking where you then start yearning for the the drunken high of seeing that person again and the positive things because obviously you got a relation for a reason. There's some positives they gave you, but you forget and as soon as you get back into it or you talk, if anybody's ever gotten back into a relationship or like kind of started down the path again, then they like, Oh my God, I forgot all these things. 1:05:03 This person, this person's crazy. I forgot all these mood swinging or whatever it was right. Then you're reminded of the hangover, you're reminded of the punishment. And so then I told the individual said, write down all of the bad things, all of the reasons that you're choosing to do this. And it's like when you have those, read it again to remind yourself of the punishment that you were choosing to do away with. 1:05:24 And when I say punishment, I say that in the very like literal behavioral sense. I'm not saying the person was like hitting them or anything like that. I'm just saying like, there's just aversive consequences to being in the relationship. They couldn't do some of the things they wanted to do and they had to give up some of the things they they did. So what do you think about changing a spouse or partner in order to like, OK, you're like, OK, well, I'm not sure. 1:05:43 I'm on the fence. Like me, there's elements of this person that I like. There's elements of this person that I don't like. So for example, in the beginning you said that you had seen glimpses of a version of me that you that you liked, but obviously had some other behaviors that I drink too, too much, too often, blah, blah, blah. 1:06:01 How do you see changing? 1:06:02 Speaker 1 I think I view it the same way that I view somebody in the workplace, which is what's their rate of progress and what's my return on my effort going to be? You know, I think what the drinking thing, like you acknowledged yourself that that was an issue, prompted the conversation with me. 1:06:20 I was fully prepared to like be like, I, if this happens again, like I can't because I have too much history with this. It's just like to, you know, whatever and you prompted it, you immediately stopped progress. So I think when I when I think about can you change somebody, I think the question is at what cost? 1:06:37 And then how quickly do they change? And if somebody's less intelligent, they probably take longer to change. And I think that they have to change on their own volition, which is the difficult part because if you're trying to change somebody in direction they don't want to go, I think that's the fundamental issues. Are you trying to change them to be somebody they don't want to be? 1:06:53 I mean, the amount of times that people come to me and they say, how do I get my wife to be like Layla? I don't want to. I know it's ridiculous, but come on. And I'm like, I was like this. You don't understand. Like it's not like Alex met me and now all of a sudden I wanted all these things. Like I wanted those things and met him and it worked between us, but people don't believe me. 1:07:09 So the first is that you, I do not think that you will succeed in trying to change somebody to be something that they don't want to be. It will be very difficult. The second piece is if you're going to change somebody, the question is how long it's going to take and what price do you pay for that? 1:07:26 What are what costs do you incur in the time it's going to change for that person to change? And so like the example is like, you know, the drinking thing, it was immediate. So it's like, obviously you're very smart and you can change quickly. If somebody hasn't, there's an aversive event that occurs or something occurs, they give feedback and it it doesn't happen immediately. 1:07:44 All right, well, it's going to take a while. And I think the third piece to it is if they are changing, how quickly do they change? Because again, it's just like, how long are you going to have to wait to resolve a situation where to get it to a point where it's a relationship that is productive rather than destructive. 1:08:01 And if you have to endure a destructive relationship for three or four more years, but you, you're in that sweet spot like you're, you're 28, you're 30, you're 33, whatever it might be. Like that's, that's kind of your golden era. So it's like, I think I look through it like, can I change this person? 1:08:20 Do they want to change If I do invest the time and changing them, what is my return on my effort? All right, Is this even worth my fucking time or should I just start over from scratch and find somebody else? Get a version 2 point O Like seriously, I think about that with employees. That's how I think about investing in somebody to stay is is this worth the return on effort or would it be easier to start over with somebody else who is more aligned with the goals that I I also have and already has some of these skills, character traits, whatever. 1:08:50 Speaker 2 One of the most attractive thing. So you had like that moment when I walked out naked or whatever an equivalent moment for me was. I think I've told this story before, but when I would say something funny, you would laugh and then be like, you're stupid, like you do whatever that thing is. 1:09:09 And I remember, I don't know, a few months into our relationship I was just like, hey, just so you know, I don't really like that. If you could not say that when you're laughing, that would mean a lot to me. And so from that day, and it's been years now, you've never done that since. 1:09:26 And it's just like a micro example of your ability to change quickly. And I, you know, didn't have the same words I have now back then. But I used to say, like, you are the most coachable human being I've ever met. And so like your ability to respond to feedback quickly and permanently is unmatched. 1:09:43 And when I saw that, I was like, wow, this is this, this like basically, if someone is extraordinarily coachable, then you can actually overcome a huge deficiency quickly. And so that you get a very high return investment because you yourself also get rewarded for prompting the, the change or the suggestion. 1:10:00 And I think also having the, the candor or the relationship where you can give feedback to the other person. And this is where I think humility is important and self-awareness, where when, if, if, if you were to go to your spouse and say, hey, when you leave your stuff out, it makes me feel like you don't care about this house at all or that you expect me to pick everything up after you. 1:10:22 If you could not do that, it would mean a lot to me. And if that person says I had no idea I'll not a problem or says I hate doing that. If I do this solution, does that solve the problem? In either of those situations, they're trying to ameliorate whatever the, the, the, the problem is. 1:10:40 And if they can do that immediately, then I see that as a very promising thing. It's just that most people can't. And so I think a lot it's like, but I mean, for me, and I think we, we see things really similarly. Like when we look at teammates that we're trying to bring on, I think we more and more have continued to look for people who have very rapid changes in behavior with feedback, which we define as intelligence. 1:11:02 And so if you have a dumb dumb as a significant other and when you give feedback, they cannot change, whether you whether that's because of ego or because of incompetence, makes it very hard to be with somebody because The thing is, is conditions are going to change. And so you are going to have preferences that shift over time. 1:11:18 Now, the stoic, you know, response is like basically deal, but I would prefer to use as much of my deal with it, you know, rubber band of resilience on other stuff that is not my spouse. 1:11:33 And I think this is actually a big, the big discussion we were having actually in relation to this whole thing, which is that very competent people, people who have high potential are still high potential people when they have a negative or detracting spouse. It's just that 50% of their intellectual effort is going into managing the relationship that they have rather than getting a productive output for that effort. 1:11:58 It's like they have to spend all of this emotional time and effort into managing their emotions, managing not getting angry, dealing with this person who when they get home has this big flare tantrum for the fact that they came home late or they're they didn't fulfill some unspoken expectation that they have. Like that takes a lot to manage. 1:12:15 And so all of a sudden, like how they're, you know, dealing with their team or their subordinates or their, or their supervisors, whatever it is, starts to falter. But it actually doesn't mean that the person in any ways has less potential or less raw effort or talent. It's just that they're being drained from this other person. 1:12:31 And a lot of times they're just not even aware of it. 1:12:33 Speaker 1 It's like people who are super overweight and then they lose weight and it's like you watch this because this attention, it was taking their attention. I think one of the things that we talk about the most is how much we value our relationship, not only just not taking attention and not having drama, but giving us attention back, you know what I mean? 1:12:48 And I think that's something we both value a lot. 1:12:50 Speaker 2 I like being left alone a lot. And I think if you have that preference, it's worth stating and delineating that for your spouse or significant other, saying like there's a very big difference between I don't want to be with you and I would rather be with myself. 1:13:09 And a lot of people take that as like, why don't you want to be with me? Why you're mad at me? Why are you upset? And you're like, it has nothing to do with you. You were not involved in this equation. And I think being able to explain that you've always taken that. I mean, it's never even been an issue. You're like, I like being alone too. It's. 1:13:22 Speaker 1 Like I like being alone too. 1:13:23 Speaker 2 So it works out great. Yeah. It's like if you're alone, I'm like right off time for me. It's like it's, it's, it's not like we, I specifically have very little need for quality time. Like I feel like if you and I saw each other once a week, we obviously see each other more than that. But if we saw each other once a week, I would be like, I'm good. 1:13:40 I'm I, I'm a like I don't need a lot or I prefer, I don't need. I don't have a high requirement for that. And I think that trying to find somebody who has a similar match of needs or requirements also just makes significantly less compromise occur. 1:14:01 And I think that that benefits both peaceful. If one person's like, I want to have quality time all the time, you have to call me every day. You have to, we need to spend 3 hours every night together. That can be tough if you're, if you like, if you're like, I don't need that now because then it means that those three hours are basically just a cost for you. 1:14:16 Again, there's exchanges. Is it worth it? Maybe I don't know. But one of the things that I, I've repeatedly said of why I think this relationship has worked so well, at least for me, has been my behavior before and after us being together changed minimally. 1:14:31 And you more or less accepted the preferences that I had in terms of and and didn't cast judgement on them. It wasn't like, oh, he is this way, therefore it is bad. It was just like, he is this way. And that works well because I am this way as well. 1:14:47 And so it ended up just being a mutual benefit. And I think if you're matching up like the, you have the basic traits of the person and your your traits and how much they mesh. And then for the in between stuff, where those things are mismatched is how coachable is that person to, to, to match the preferences you may have and basically solutioning to figure out things that can be mutually beneficial for both of you. 1:15:11 Like the if I got a vendor to clean my socks up and pick them up because I don't feel like picking them up, does that solve the problem?