[Music] Welcome back to Business of Drinks, I'm Erica Ducey. And I'm Scott Rosenbaum. Today we're talking with Caitlin Silva, Director of National Accounts at Triven Wine and Spirits. This is the company behind one of the fastest scaling wine brands in the country, XXL. Now, Triven isn't a startup. The company was founded in 1987 as an importer, and today they manage roughly 1700 skews and about $300 million in annual revenue. But XXL represents something very different for them. It is a proprietary brand built for modern retail and modern consumers, and its atmospheric growth and rocket ship-like velocity really reflect this. Yeah, XXL launched in 2023 and scaled from roughly 85,000 cases in year one to an estimated 2.5 million cases by 2025, and it grew 40% year over year last year. You know, and that's when much of the industry was flat or down. That kind of growth right now is super rare, but especially in wine. And here's what makes this story interesting. This is a 16% ABV flavored wine that broke out during a period when much of the industry was focused on moderation and low and low. But instead of following that narrative, they leaned into bold flavor, higher alcohol, and an unmistakable shelf presence. And consumers responded. And this is not just an episode about a viral brand striking it at the right time, right? This is a success story that is built on intentionality, planning, and executional excellence. Caitlin runs National Accounts, which means she is responsible for getting products into some of the toughest retail chains in the country and keeping them there. In this conversation, we get into how national resets really work, why advice like go big or go home is often the wrong strategy, and how to use data to shape a sales pitch. Also, we cover why patience matters more than most founders think. So if you've ever wondered why a brand that's exploding in independence doesn't automatically win at Walmart or Target, she explains the mechanics. We also talked about how XXL scaled through independent markets first, what made buyers take this brand seriously, and how format expansion into tetrapax and cans wasn't just innovation for innovation's sake. It was really a deliberate move to win new occasions and new channels. And there's a bigger takeaway here. XXL's success suggests that growth isn't just happening at the extremes, right? Not just in non-al, not just in high luxury. It's happening in the value sector as well, which I don't think a lot of people are talking about right now. So as Caitlin explains, XXL hits on several levels. It feels premium enough to bring to a party, and it also delivers good bang for the buck in terms of flavor and alcohol level. And that particular combination of attributes is what helped it break out. Yeah. For brands listening, this is a conversation that is a gimlet-eyed view of what national buyers actually care about, velocity, incremental shoppers, and margin that makes sense for multiple stakeholders, right? This is about execution that fixes headaches, doesn't create them. For distributors and retailers, this is a case study in how an independent driven brand can convert into national programming if the fundamentals are there. Yes. And how to innovate without over-complicating and build something that moves cases because consumers are actively looking for it. So let's get into it. Here's our conversation with Caitlin Silva of Tribe in lines and spirits. And now a word from our sponsor. If you're building a beverage brand in the US, you already know logistics, compliance, accounting, and distribution management can eat up your entire week. That's where MHW comes in. They're a licensed importer, distributor, and full back office partner across all 50 states. They handle the minutia so you can focus on building your brand. Whether you're launching your first product or scaling fast, they make the complex simple. Learn more at mhwltd.com and now back to the show. Caitlin, welcome to the business of drinks. Thank you for having the ear, I'm excited to be here. So tell me about your background and how you came to work at Tribe in lines and spirits. So I was trying to do the math backwards and it always seems longer when you have to do this. But it's about 15 years in the industry now, which is exciting. And I used to be restaurants when I was in school. Southern gave me my first shot. So I started off with the big boys down here in actually Miami where I'm on base now. And that transitioned into eventually getting into the supplier side or as I always called the dark side. I went to Tolato and went right into chains. I was on premise. Tolato took a big chance on me. Did that for a few years? That's where I really got my taste for chains. I jokingly said my first Costco hit is 5,000 cases. And that was it. I never had to go back to selling to on premise. That would be fine. Just to get that taste of it. Did that for a few years and just had an opportunity at Paco brands, which was my first more of a startup. But you know, essentially, even though they had the brand somewhat going with Rancho LaVoria, did that for almost five years, went from being the second salesperson. I think they probably have upwards of 120 people now with the company and had another opportunity with an exciting sort of startup that a brand that had exploded but didn't really have the national chains peace. And my boss now ran into him at ECRM, which is usually a small supplier kind of entrepreneurial event that you see. Some retailer, larger retailers ran into him, kind of had a quick conversation and two weeks later he had a job offer. So I think you're just over a year with a try then helping to just really nationally scale within the accounts, expect them. Awesome. Well, for people who may not fully understand what a director of national accounts does, what is it that you do day to day? And where would you say you have the most influence over a brand's growth? It's a great question. When I ask myself every day too, right? If I have to recap, what did I do today that kept me so busy? So, you know, it definitely depends on the size of the company, right? I say the stage of a brand and where they are in that life on what you spend the most time on, right? When you work with one of these big, you know, suppliers that have established brands, you're just trying to find, right, that little thing to keep you above the plateau with my last two positions, you know, distribution is so much as key. So it's touching a lot for me. It's almost every national account right now. I've got my hands kind of everywhere and dabbling in a little bit of everything. So it's right now distribution, you know, kind of that push, if you will, to get into the chains. Now the next piece is obviously the execution. You know, once you get it on, you know, turned on, and you get it into the stores, can you keep it in stock? And then obviously just the performance and managing that along the way. So whether that be pricing and promotions, demos, getting that programming, and then just constantly staying on top of it, when again, when you have somebody who maybe has a smaller team, I feel like it used to be new item season, right? It was spring for fall, fall for spring. As always, like my simplified way, when you deal with, you know, 60 plus national accounts, I don't think new items season stops. It's like a full year thing now when you don't have a team. So it keeps you on your toes, but that really does take up the most of the time right now is really just driving that distribution and making sure that we're getting into the stores and getting in front of the consumers and getting programming is probably that next piece that honestly this year is going to be a big portion for us. It's like, right, hey, we're in the stores. That next step, how do we get to the floor? Yeah. And you know, when you are approaching these national accounts, whether it's a new brand, or maybe you're expanding an existing brand, what are the specific metrics or performance indicators that are most important to them in their consideration? It's a, it's definitely one of those things too, where depending on the category and the size of the brand that you're going and how you're, it's all about the angle. For me, I live in the data, right? I've used all sorts. My last company, we had a different contract. One now, I am a data feed. I live, read it, dive it. It's all the interpretation. One of my first roles, I had the fastest growing North Coast Cabernet between 12 and 1499, Nana Tuesday, you know, those type of backtoids that you can dig out to show them are definitely important brand rankings. You know, when you're talking about someone like a sea store or even a skew rankings, it's again, hard coming from a startup and saying, hey, I want to get into a sea store and look through and be like, I'm the number 512 skew. You have 12 skews in your set. Okay, I might be a little bit far off, but those angles, right, and taking some of the other category or segment data to kind of show, well, I might not be, you know, I might be top 500 overall, but jump into just seventh, jump into just flavored and knowing how to dig it as simple or as cliche as it can sound. It's almost a practice, right? The more that you do it, the more comfortable that you're going to be and confident in talking about it. It has to be, you know, backed by data as well. Obviously, you can't just, I mean, I can spin it with the best of them, but it still has to have proof in there. There have to be truth that back set up in case you get called down on it knowing how to leave
them to the water a little bit and show them like, hey, this is what I'm bringing you and why is really important. You know, within flavor wine, XXL or even, you know, RTDs in my past, the rankings of flavors are something that I was always surprised going to my account meetings. They were genuinely appreciative. That's a great thank you for ranking those. I'm like, oh, this is, it just seems so obvious, but definitely helpful when you're going in. If you have something that has like mine right now, 13 different flavors, it's over Wal-Meg, right? You don't want to submit 13. So saying, hey, within Florida, here's my top five. But hey, I know you're in Georgia. It actually swaps a little bit, right? Peach jumps up, you know, and looking at it that way. So simple, but so many people don't do it. You know, and it's different when you're talking like, like, varietal. If you go and you're like a cabernet versus a shardonnay, you might be talking completely different consumers. So it doesn't really, you're not necessarily making that within your pitch and ranking at that. Like, you're going after sure, you're going after that. With this, the more you can give them in a somewhat new and was a confusing category, but a newer category, the more information that easier it is for make their decisions, the better that I've performed, honestly, with my, you know, my national accounts as of late. That's fantastic because I think these are big accounts. And like you said, maybe they're making like a 5,000 case order. So those proof points are so, so important. That makes me think a little bit about kind of what brands misunderstand. So what would you say that brands misunderstand most about how national accounts actually scale? And secondary to that, you know, what separates the brands that successfully expand from those that kind of stall out? Yeah. So I go back to that push pull piece of it and what is so important is obviously the push metrics. And what I mean by that is getting it into, you know, getting it into the change, getting asked that gatekeeper and how you go through there. I think everybody has this idea with national accounts. It's, you know, kind of go bigger, go home. It's like, oh my gosh, I have to get into one mark, have to get into target. And of course, those are important great partners of mine that we're growing with. But it's, it's not easy, right? They have very few windows. They're very data centric. They're sets are small. They have their key partners. So knowing that if you do get that opportunity to present them or any national original chain, it doesn't have to be everything. You don't have to ask for everything all at once, even though I'm sure, you know, some owners or people would be spinning, saying just ask for the, you know, shoot for the stars. Again, they want it to be very simple. They want you to come and show them the easiest way to help this brand execute and make the money. Sometimes pitching that regional opportunity and showing them why get you more than you think. That was in a meeting last week. I had an in person and showed a brand as a regional opportunity in the pack request and major national retailer. And this was separate from XXL loved it. Thought it was clean, loved the new take on it. It was a variety of wine, nothing flavored. And now we might have an opportunity to expand even past that when I was just like, hey, give me Oregon, Washington doing kind of well up there. So I think it's not always go big. Like go to the right place. You might get more where you can perform there and expand out. And it takes time. You know, that's the other thing that when we're talking about scaling, that people don't realize, New Resets a year if you're lucky, you know, some of the big guys are only one. A lot of the sea stores are one. It's this very hurry up and wait mentality. You've got two weeks to do your new account meetings. You've got this boom, boom, boom, boom. I have national accounts. It takes six, eight months to get back. I mean, you're presenting your next round to them before you even know what you're getting on spring. I have one right now. I'm like, I can't figure out what I'm pitching for ball. I don't know what I got for spring yet. You know, so. Today, that's us business of drinks, whether you're preparing to raise capital or enter new markets, the cost of bad decisions gets very real very fast. Business of drinks advisory services helps brands pressure test their strategy, sharpen their positioning and get ready for that next phase of growth. We work with drinks, founders and leaders on distribution planning, portfolio focus, brand assessment and investor materials. If you want experienced eyes on your business, before you make your next big move, reach out. We're at info at businessofdrinks.com. And now back to the show. That can definitely be a be a dance when you're talking about scaling and wanting to know, well, did I get this? Do I need a new flavor? Well, I don't even know if I have this one anywhere yet. So that's definitely, I think a dance for everybody and kind of being patient. As again, cliche as that is and let things go through and prove yourself where you are before going too big to bar. Yeah, that's super useful context, I think for brands, but really anyone who's working in this space. So let's move a little bit into try then. You know, the company has evolved from an importer that was founded in 1987 into a supplier with roughly 1700 products and approximately 300 million dollars in revenue annually. So at that scale, how is it that you prioritize which brands in the portfolio should receive that national chain focus and resources? The risk of getting in trouble. Now, it's one of those things that we're still figuring out for sure. I've been on board a little over a year and started with XXL as my focus. And I feel like I'm lucky. People wanted, for the most part, talk to me. I mean, the one talk about the brand. I just happened to come with it at this point, but it opens it up. And it's given me these opportunities to say, by the way, I was looking through your data, you know, XYZ. So looking through our book, obviously right now we probably have as a company, maybe 10 KPI brands that we focus on is a core focus that we have nationally distributed. A lot of those are proprietary brands. Some of them are supplier brands. For me, I go through their first to try to see where it can fit, but I always have to be customer first. So taking into account, and sometimes that can be harder. What I feel like I'm blessed with here is that I have this massive portfolio. So if I need a customer that's looking for an amount of quite, I have somebody who's looking for slate, or whatever it might be, I can probably find something that makes sense, you know, within reason. You know, it's been a lot of fun being on this side with this bigger book, which was quite frankly a little overwhelming at first, but really leaning with what the customer's looking for, and then going right back to data. I'm always going to go back to my national accounts, colored glasses, as I call them, and going back to data and having that backing, but trying to force big heavy reds if they're asking for aromatic whites, it's you're going to be pushing a rock uphill. So it's definitely important to be flexible within that when you're dealing with the national accounts. So we're still figuring it out for sure. I drive in, you know, getting those regional accounts that we did this last reset for spring. Some of our proprietary brands, we landed a couple of the Safeway regionals, you built that data up. If it's working, it's pulling through, there's your jumping board for the next reset time period. Nice, nice. I like the step scale approach that seems to make a lot of sense. Well, let's talk about the proprietary brands. So try in built its business importing and representing global producers, but XXL represents a shift towards building proprietary brands. So how did that evolution change? How the company is approaching growth and investment? So, you know, quite frankly, we obviously would love to own more of the brands, because there's more money on that right? So, you know, there's more opportunity, more margin, more for us to be able to invest back in the market, or to, you know, put back into the company, back into our pockets, right? We're all in sales. So we're definitely leaning more towards that. And it's one of the nice things of having a somewhat smaller organization. So we're actually, a triven is actually a distributor as well in the tri-state area, the New York New Jersey Connecticut. And that was another, that was kicked off well before we became kind of a national supplier and were the sense of it. So that really helped mark our current owner, C, first hand, what's working, right? Hey, I'm going to make this brand. He's got a testing ground, one of the best testing grounds, if you will, right? It's an independent market. They're not chains. If it works here, what else could we do? So it was definitely a version of that. And it's been a big priority for him since he took over on his father a few years ago, has been continuing to expand on what his father had already started. One of the first brands that we had, Tessick Jumper, is in 30 plus countries, distributed all over. It's given a few places in the U.S., but it's really become more of an international brand. And one that his father started, he wanted to take that and continue. XXL being that first real big national kind of takeoff, but we have a handful that are doing really well and on-premise. And we kept it that way. We're doing a entered-year sparkling in French, you know, kind of into France and doing really well in banquets, really well in marriots, airline clubs, you know, kind of this, hey, you can't find it anywhere else. People aren't seeing it for $9.99 on a retail shelf, so we have that side, but it kind of that same thing that taste of glory with what XXL has brought in a national retail side, is really now pushed the envelope. We're looking towards what is going to be that next brand, that next item, that next spin-off, so that we're not just a one-trick national chain pony in XXL. What else can we find? What are their angles? So, and now a word from our sponsor. For years, the rule was simple, make it beautiful, and it will sell. Those days are behind us, in a market this crowded looking good is just the baseline. 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knowing what you stand for, even if that pushes some people away. The 2026 new Rules Report from the Hilo Agency unpacks how stand out beverage brands are building relevance beyond packaging and polish. If you're ready to rethink what brand actually means, go to newrulesbev.com/report to download your copy and now back to the show. I think for fall, we have a couple things in our docket that's remember our retail partners are going to start seeing over the next couple of weeks that we're excited about. Exciting. Well, let's talk about the rocket ship that is XXL. So the brand launches in 2023 and scaled from that point, you know, 85,000 cases in its first year to about 2.5 million cases in 2025. Incredible growth by any measure. So what were the key inflection points that allowed the brand to scale at that speed? It's been on board a year. So some of that I wasn't a part of. So I've definitely done my research with the team. We have an amazing team here that has, you know, we're kind of scrappy. If you will, very resourceful, we're a lot of hats and they did such an amazing job of getting our distributors on board and telling the story at the initial takeoff, if you will. What's been crazy about this brand is how the independent markets have built it and really turned it around and exposed it everywhere. Tick tock by reality kind of kicked it out for sure initially, but we have a relatively smaller distributor in Maryland that I mean, they did 100,000 cases in Maryland and independent market, right? We did the, you know, in the second year in New York, 300,000 in an independent market. So really proven itself to say that they're going to come back. It's not just because I'm a large supplier that happens to draw the sets and forced something in and now people are buying it because it's right in front of them. People went and they looked for it. They found it. So we started some of the production elsewhere and I think some of the flexibility and being a smaller organization, not needing to have to go through that, you know, that tier of 15 people to get approval to expedite ocean freight or whatever it might be saying, hey, we might need to spend a little here to rush this to make sure that we capitalize on it, which again, I feel like it seems pretty cliche or again, obvious, but I think a lot of people get very stuck in that format or like, oh, we have to do it this way. Or this is a way it's always been done when you have somebody like our owner who's willing to push the envelope essentially and not necessarily follow the rules and how they think it should be done. That's what's really helped to just kind of, hey, you know, we're going to do this flavor. All right, let's get state compliance going. Let's get the flavors right. It'll be in market in 90 days, right? The compliance spending, it'll be in market in 90 days, which you go to the big guys and, you know, it's like a year process. And there's a reason they do that, but in innovation lately, it seems like it is almost too late. A lot of the bigger guys are taking so long to kind of get on board. So I think having flexibility, I know some of the larger guys have that these think tanks or smaller supplier brokerage groups that they're working with, but I don't know how many of them have paid off, but I think it's going down the right path of not always having to go up and down the hierarchy, if you will, through these organizations that take too long to get stuff to market. Yeah, I mean, it's remarkable how nimble XXL has been, you know, first sourcing in Moldova, then moving to California and other places. So I think like that nimbleness has allowed it to act more like an RTD than a traditional wine product. So that's fascinating. You know, I wanted to talk a little bit about the growth, which is incredible. Next year, closed out around 40% growth year over year. And I was curious, what is XXL forecasting for 2026 in terms of case volume or distribution expansion? So we'd obviously love to get that double digit growth. It might not be quite, you know, mid, you know, double digits at this point, just as we get that base up there, pretty significantly, but we're very optimistic. XXL is now pretty much in almost every national chain, you know, across the country, but there's a relatively large one that's coming on in about two, three weeks in a really big way, programming it heavily. And then a lot of the ones that have been on board and supporting are doing our first national programs. You know, we've really seen a shift, which has been interesting watching the data. If to be patient with the data, especially when you're an independent brand that was built so fast, that share shift kind of scares people, I think, a little bit, right? We were so indie. So if you look at our data and like open liquor, if you're like, "Oh, what's happening there? What's happening?" But then you look at X, A, C, and we're up, you know, 3,000 percent over, you know, pretty much every time period. So we've definitely seen the share shift. We don't want to ignore, you know, or abandon the people that got us there, essentially the independence, the independent markets, the larger liquor store chains that believed in us early. But these national chains, I mean, we all know when you get to be the largest out there, you have to have them and you need to have them as part. So because we now we're really starting to see it, I think the next three months are going to be really important for us in making sure that we execute. And that's what's going to take us to our next, you know, big pickup and trajectory, for sure. XXL entered the market in 2023, you know, at a time when a lot of the industry was talking around moderation, low and no alcohol products. And I was interested in hearing what Mark and the team considered at that time. Like what was the either data points or, you know, market behavior that they were seeing that would say, actually, let's go in the opposite direction. Let's introduce a 16 percent flavored wine. You know, it just, it seems so counterintuitive. And so the team zigged while everyone else zagged sort of thing. So what was it that made them believe this could win? Yeah, it's funny. And I have a, I feel like a bias a little bit because of the company I was with and positioned with, I was going against that grain already, right? With the Pacco and Rancho LaGloria, where it was like, we weren't like 16 percent, but we were, you know, pushing the envelope, 13, 9, flavored, sweet, you know, all of that. We pushed a little bit on ebv, but again, this that looking in the data, I joke a lot of time with my friends that it's amazing, the millions of dollars that go into data analysis from all these huge suppliers and that nobody caught it. You know, and I do think a few dabbled in it, honestly, from the bigger side, but nobody landed that planes. You know, Mark has his version of it, but essentially everybody was doing this low and you know, and, you know, he had a, a piphany when seeing some of the beat box and buzz balls and some of these things, same thing that were built in independence. He was like, you know what, I really do think like let's have some fun. I don't think at that point anyone could have thought it would do what it did, right? That tick-tock virality, true, you know, a lot of people, we go, we're doing great on social. I've never seen, again, I have my biases, anything like it, that it was nothing spent on their end, on our end at the beginning. It was just go find this, go find this, the rumor mill that we were owned by certain celebrities. It just like kickstarted this whole crazy thing that led us to where we are. Again, I really was just a, let's try something different. Let's see if we can do something fun. Oldova was making some of these wines already, kind of these high out, unflavered, a bunch of different versions and some of the independent markets and he was like, you know, we're going to do this. So totally different. I mean, again, if you go through the rest of our buckets, you know, we're one of the largest importers of Portuguese wines. And you're like, okay, that's great. The wines are fantastic, great value, but again, it's not something that's weaning us into a ton of national chains quite yet. We're getting there. But yeah, he just honestly took it on a whim by looking at, like, some of the RTDs and a little bit of some of his markets around him was like, let's go for it. Let's give it a shot and here we are three years later. Yeah, and it shows that sometimes going against the grain really can pay off. You know, the brand, it has all of these really super accessible flavors, right? Mango, peach, blackberry, pineapple. How important do you think those flavors were and like that, that type of flavor accessibility to really help the brand take off? I think it was a major part of it. We just recently introduced just a plain mosquito as well. It's actually doing pretty well. We don't have as much distribution on it, but I think initially in the consumer that we're bringing in is comfortable. It wasn't anything tropical or any of these kind of fluffy words that you can see on even some sellers. It is very black and white, right? It is strawberry and grapes. It's mango and kind of coming from that. So I think, you know, there's definitely seen some consumers that were purchasing other, whether it would be RTDs or wines in that flavor. It was an easy job. I was listening to one of your other podcast business or drinks and you were talking about flavor and accessibility and how important it is to getting these consumers in and looking at the occasions. I think having multiple optins, you know, versus like a kind of a ride-al-thing where you have these consumers that are so, hey, I'm a shardonnay drinker, I'm a capronay drinker. This younger generation that's coming in is not that. They're looking for something different, you know, something that they, hey, when I drink this, it's going to taste like mango, right? I like mango, right? It's very, I would say one-dimensional, but it kind of is. It's very to the point, clean packaging. It's not confusing. Everybody can say XXL, right? It's not hard to pronounce, you know, it's straightforward right there, easy to see on the shelf. And again, it's not rocket science.
when you say it out loud, it sounds very basic, but it really is going back to basics. It's easy label. We have a really great premium packaging, spent a ton of money on custom molds, for a wine that you're seeing for $10 to have the embossments and the high foil and really quality glass. I think that helped to differentiate it too, where people weren't worried. They were buying just another flavored regional wine, right? Like that you'll see in Michigan or North Carolina. This was something different that felt like they could take it to a friend's house, again, leading with those occasions. "Hey, I can grab this. I'm not going to be embarrassed to bring in something like this." Yeah, exactly. It does feel like something that would be appropriate to bring to a party, barbecue, something like that, where it's like, "Okay, I want to bring something that feels nice." Like the packaging feels nice, but it's also a super fun party drink. I know both of us were at Wine Paris last week, and I had the opportunity to stop by the XXL booth and try through all of the flavors, and they are just super fun. I wondered how you hear of people drinking them, because when I tried them, I thought this would be so great to just make an Italian soda, basically, right? The dirty Italian soda. If I had this product at home, I'd be like, "Let's take the mango," and then let's do one-third mango, two-thirds soda water, and we have a nice cocktail. That is the quickest way to a cocktail that I can pretty much think of. So I wondered, how do you see people using the product? From, again, we have this blessing in our TikTok following, because I see it over and over and over again. If anybody's bored, just go in TikTok and scroll. You can scroll for hours and watch. I think a lot of consumers definitely chilled, whether it's our strawberry, which under a category might be red. It's definitely a chillable red, if you want to do it. It's a lighter in style on over ice, in a super easy, but to your point, the pineapple is super fun. I've done it just like that. Soda water, element, orange-sized, lime-sliced, whatever it might be. If you're not a huge, sweet person, it kind of tones it down a little bit. It keeps it refreshing. We have it on our website, but we've seen people that do different cocktail versions, because again, it is, you get that ABV kick, so you're not just having something that's watered down essentially. But I think for the most part, the consumers are drinking it right from the bottle. From my TikTok data, if you will. Yeah, that's great. Well, you know, who would you say is the core consumer for XXL? So while we definitely see that younger, so we'd say like 21 to 39, even though that's a pretty good gap, female, heavy, but surprisingly, as I started to go through the consumer data more, we over index, especially against other flavored wines that maybe don't have quite our ABV. And even some of those major RTDs, I think boxbuzz balls rancho, more male, we over index, which has been kind of with exciting to see, especially when I'm talking to, you know, the national chains and category teams, because wine tends to shift, you know, female, especially sweet wine. So the fact that we feel like we're bringing in new consumers to the wine category and into the wine idol to know that we might be bringing in, you know, additional male head of household has been really cool to see. And I know that's been something super impactful to the buyers. And when you see some of our copycat brands that are coming out, that they're doing the same thing, black labels, a little more masculine. So we don't know if it's our label, the name, but again, if you go and look up any of the ones that are coming to high ABV, for the most part, they all have that same kind of darker feel to it, where it just is a little bit more masculine. Yeah, yeah. Well, you mentioned independence, sort of growing the independence really contributing on the early days to most of the growth. So how did the national rollout strategy play out for the brand? So probably not the most conventional from again, if you're talking to any major supplier, right? And even though some of them will test it in certain markets, we started with very specific markets with distributors that were engaged because it wasn't people are like a flavored moscato, like, ooh, right, like a tiny ABV, great. Like there was the trade, whether it be retailers or distributors were hesitant at the beginning, until they started seeing the numbers again, if you can move those type of cases in independent markets, imagine what you can do with, you know, some of these chain markets. So, you know, we launched in Atlanta, we launched in Chicago, you know, I think I skipped it on the consumer portion a little bit, but we, you know, definitely lean multicultural and urban, heavy urban. And I think some of that is still because of where we've launched and are the strongest. I think as we continue to expand nationally and get our distribution further into some of these markets, that'll shift as well. So New York being our one of our top markets, Miami being one at Lannan, Chicago, Detroit, and now Houston, Dallas coming on board. Again, we're seeing it shift a little bit more from, you know, FM to bringing in more Hispanic. So I think it's going to continue to be multicultural, it's going to be continued to be young, but again, we'll see as it continues to shift, West, West, we launched, but California, Arizona, Nevada areas didn't launch until 2024. In late 2024, and we, we have, many distributed partners, but we were heavily aligned with as R&DC and we were with them in California, and it was only about eight months until they exited the market there. So we had a big shakeup with a brand that we had barely launched and we're really just getting on board and changed. Another thing with national accounts is even if it's doing really well, California might not care for us doing well, right? They want to see it locally. So, you know, quite frankly, the West is still underdeveloped for us. So we're still, I mean, we're launched in all states, but, you know, if you go out there in the chains in the stores, you might see two, three flavors. And we've been in the independence four or five. I was going through some of the data yesterday and we've got chains on the East Coast. I was like, we have 32 skews. I was like sitting there counting. I was like, there's got to be something wrong because we've got all the sizes and everything now. So where I get excited is just the potential of us continuing just to grow out there and just our core flavors and our core sizes, for sure. So we're still working on that national scale, even though we are available everywhere all state. It's still not to the level that we are in like a, again, a state like Georgia of New York or Illinois. Yeah. Well, when you are presenting XXL to national chain buyers, what makes the strongest case for the brand? You know, is it entirely velocity or is it margin structure? Is it, you know, we can bring in new consumers? Like, what does that sort of conversation look like? Think consumers is definitely the biggest lead for us, right? That's the one that's really bringing it because everybody's looking for that share business, right? And those store visits and basket rings and getting people into the door. I think it's definitely from that side of it, but there are some of it too is just that rest of market. The velocity, it's, again, funny. Like, can you look in chains? It's, you know, exponential. When you loop in the liquor channel, they might not feel the same right or velocity is falling off because you can find it in other places. But the consumer piece of it, because they're all looking, right? We all read whether you're looking at wine or any other CPG. Everybody's talking about what, you know, Gen Z is doing and how everything shifting and whatnot. So that's definitely a lead. We're pretty happy about our emergence and what we provide. We haven't gotten to this point where we're chasing things to the floor. Our retail partners have been pretty good about it. You know, we shipped it a little bit when the brand was exploding. So we kind of needed to and took back a little bit more margin for ourselves so we could support it. But now is we're getting into chains, you know, we're going to start seeing those aggressive kind of retails again. But still, you know, we like our retailers as long as we can, right? Sometimes it's out of your control to make heavy margin as well, which is it is definitely important to them. But I think in the last year from my perspective, the chains are leaning towards units a lot, right? Like, they want to move units. They want to move through and again, every chain is different, but I feel like margin expectations have kind of shifted down slightly as that's what the consumers looking for, right? They're looking for that value. And from our side, I'm appreciative because it used to be used to feel a little one side, right? Always chasing margin, especially with private labels or what it might be. So now to see it, okay, hey, we're going to give in a little bit too. Like, we don't need to make 35. Like, we're okay with 25. Right? We know a little bit more than we'll see it from that standpoint as well. Yeah. Well, talk me through the brand's marketing strategy. What's working to build brand awareness and trial most effectively? So I think within sweet wines and RTDs, it's getting in in front of the consumer where they are digitally and socially in the TikTok, you know, with us, obviously, TikTok is still going back and forth with how alcohol can interact from like a spend, you know, perspective. So we're dancing around a little bit on that. You know, we do well on some of those social aspects, but I think being in events and that's something that we're prioritizing, you know, this year's festivals, events, getting in front of them that way. It's driving trial, obviously, you're being sold in the concessionaires. They can see it. They're interacting. They're making it an experiential thing where they can make it Instagram pictures or whatever it might be. It's really helpful and you can get so much content out of participating in one of those. I mean, they're not cheap, but so we're definitely leaning in their innovation for us and launching them properly is going to be really important this year, timing-wise. You can be nimble, but if you get too nimble too quickly and you have 42 flavors, things can get a little convoluted. So we're just being more strategic on our timing or partner.
We love to do first-market flavors with national chains on our boards. We've had a handful that have gone in the dance. You don't want to give one to one, you've got to give one to other. So that has been a big portion of it and then supporting it, you know, a 360 if you will from there, right? Digitally, again, being in festivals, having some pull through mechanisms. You know, LTOs is another big one for me. Again, going through always going to have my national chain, you know, lenses on, I love an LTO package. Anybody who I've worked with, whether they appreciate it or not, distributors, if somebody's listening to this, probably get some eye rolls, I love an LTO package. It's going back to that push and pull, you know, that it's what's going to push it to the floor with the buyers. It's an excuse to get onto the floor, I'm saying excuse. It's a reason to get onto the floor. And if you know you have a brand, you're supporting it with demos or price promotions, whether it be coupons, digital coupons, you know, all the different mechanisms you can. And making it pull through, I would love to say that everything's built from the shelf. And I know a lot of big suppliers are leaning on that as space continues to cut back. But you still need those opportunities to get in front of people. So if you can execute them well on time, important, and that's going to be a big thing for us this year. We have a couple key periods that we're going to look at. We already have retail partners excited about it. Nice. Well, let's talk a little bit about format innovations. So XXL launched in 2023 in the traditional 750 ml's. And then last year introduced cans and tetrapax. So what drove the decision to introduce those alternative formats? So my pitch when I'm talking to the distributors and having them help me figure out, you know, right, you're going to present this is always that glass got us to the party. So we got to that 100 million mark in Nielsen with just glass. And sometimes especially when I'm talking about convenience stores or out west, where we haven't fully expanded yet in a true fashion and I have all our skis out there. It's hard for them to understand because Tetris, because of the big brands that are out there right now beatbox. Everybody's chasing that, you know, the data is there. Right. We've talked about data bunch. It's one of those things that's definitely makes it easier to to sell in. For me, glass is still so important. But we also want to make sure that we're going where the consumer is. We definitely think that, you know, the occasion based and that's where convenience packaging plays in. And that's where convenience stores quite frankly do. We have a substantial amount of business and convenience for a top 20 brand. And that's honestly because of a handful of states. If you go out west again or even to some of our larger states, we're not even a top 100, but jump over to South Carolina with a number one 750 wine brand. We sell more than barefoot and South Carolina convenience. So I get excited shout out to my distributors there. They know I love them because I'm just like everybody needs to be like this working with them, leaning and looking and I'm like, why wouldn't we give our consumers another option? I don't think that 1099 is too scary, but sometimes the convenience you'll see us at even 1299, you know, some of our big box or sub 10, but in convenience, you know what? It might be too much of a jump. So can we grab new consumers at that 599 499 where our Tetris kind of lie from retail perspective. Can we grab them from there and then the cans we do them in four packs for me. It's the price point is a little odd together, but they're still doing while it's like a 1399 1499 when you split them apart. Because can wine had its moment. There was so many you went into all these picnic sets and then it kind of resized itself and it's not for wine. It's not exciting right RTDs. I mean, it's it's everything. So for us, it was like maybe this could be something exciting to wine buyers because most chains it's still falling under wine, even if it's in a can. And we're seeing, you know, you can do 399 retail on a 250 ml can at 30 plus margin is enticing when you're thinking about the more ABV and are similar from a packaging size competitor. It's a better value to customers. So that was kind of the fun behind it. You know, I think we're still figuring some of that out the Tetris have really exploded. There's been making space for it and how many, you know, blue raspberry party punch just like cans are going to try all these it's going to shake down offer something different. We offer hey, we're not traditional wine, but we're not in our TD like we fit a gap that really nobody else is feeling from any flavor wine perspective. Like you again, look at the data was so surprised that nobody had done that yet, not necessarily in a high ABV, but you just didn't see flavored wine in tetra from most of the big suppliers. So XXL is really sold with wines, right, and not RTDs. So I'm interested to hear about the feedback you hear from the accounts. Do they say that XXL is bringing new consumers to the wine category or is it pulling share from other existing wine brands? I think XXL truly is bringing in new consumers. I would be crazy to think it's not going to be pulling from some from a value perspective. One of our largest wine brands in the country, it's a flavored wine, it's a mosquito-based as well, you know, it's low ABV and there tend to be more expensive. So for sure with the way that the economy is and everything now and inflation and people are looking for that value opportunity. Hey, it's cheaper and we get more out of that one occasion. Maybe that we're going to be drinking it. I definitely think there's been some of that. I think where our successes really come from with these retailers is that we are bringing in new consumers and we are seeing new people in the aisle. We're seeing repeat buys, pick up significantly because people want to come by and try another flavor. You know, some of our marketing tactics and our promo spending is going to be on that by two save. We'll have some buy one save for trial, but it's definitely going to be by two because I really think again somebody will go in and be like, you know what? Yeah, we try the strawberry and the mango versus a shard and a drink or going back to poor shard and a cabernet. Someone's not like, well, okay, do we need two bottles of shard? Not necessarily. Do I want another variety? When you have those multi flavors, the multi step step up purchasing, you know, whether it's an MIR IRC. I get in my past life worked really well. Nice. Well, I want to know your perspective on what XXL success is telling us about where growth is happening in beverage alcohol today from your vantage point. What is it that other suppliers should take away from the success of this brand? So definitely a two part thing and depending on the angle that you're looking at, you know, there were some major retailer summits that I sat through this past year where they were like, we don't want just a copycat. We don't want just a flavor extension, but at the same time, you know, selfishly as some of these copycats come up and other ones a little bit different here. It helps to legitimize the category of it and the same thing happened with with our T.D.s just a few years ago when I was on there and the whole wine based RTD and making it accessible for everybody to buy a, you know, a margarita or what have you. So I think a lot of suppliers have definitely led into and the retailers are honestly pushing it from a better for you perspective that low and no alchent, you know, almost every bar of pee that I've gotten still continues to push that I have seen a few not necessarily ask for high ebv. And there's a little bit of a dance like I do have one major national chain that still won't jump over because they want to stick with that health and wellness side of it. So they're still avoiding us for now. So I do think that the flavor forward and bold flavors and being accessible and easy to read, you know, no nonsense labels things like that. I think it's what it's showing versus just a everybody wants to, you know, drink a lot more or drink a lot less. I think it's going back to occasions right and it's like even Gen Z there. Maybe they're not drinking, you know, as many time, but maybe when they do drink, they want it to be. And was a effective. You know, it's 16 person and it's higher, but it's not like you know we're not pushing out 80 per win or something like that. So it's definitely you get more bang for your buck, you know consumers don't necessarily want to drink more. They want their drink to do more when they choose to do so. I and have that value. So I think finding that I know that's kind of a vague way to say it and everyone's trying to figure that out, but it doesn't have to be all in right. This is low out and everything's better for you, giving some cues to quality cues to it being better or at least being a little more upfront. I mean, I don't know if we're going to start from our calorie counts on the front of XXL, but you know, again, being transparent in what you're providing to consumers for sure. Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting perspective for sure. All right, well, I know we have to wrap up soon, but I do want to get in a lightning round of questions. So you feel in the blank. So the biggest misconception about national accounts is blank. The national accounts off premise is probably that when you're hiring people or dealing with that it's you have to find somebody with that relationship with that specific chain, I would say this past year, I can tell you that these national chain buying teams have turned over significantly. And it's I love to bring this up because it's an interesting industry, lots of layoffs. I've got a lot of industry friends that are looking for things. I think finding the right person with the right fit that knows chains right knows how they work knows data has follow up and follow through is so much more important than. And I think that's because this person's called on this chain for 10 years and they know it, although that can't be important, but I think you could teach them those skills.
account, right? Like be open to meeting other people that can lead it. Again, there's the bindings going to keep changing those relationships off premise and a little bit different than on. Everybody's backing down, backing down from, you know, can barely give somebody a bottle of water, right? From that. So it's really those relationships are going to come from how they, again, do they get back to my emails? Are they on time? Do they do what they say they're going to do? Having that type of integrity and the people that you hire for national accounts is more important than what they know that buyer. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So the next one, the hardest thing about my job is blank. Okay. The hardest thing about my job other than finding more hours in the day, probably, right? It's definitely a hurry up and wait, right? We're in sales. It's that you want that instant gratification that, you know, hey, I took drag to back today and I sold 10 cases of wine, especially when you're starting up brand. It's, it's frustrating. You're sitting there, you present, I'm presenting now in February for September, October, if not later. You know, major national chain, I presented last November for this September and they do it once a year. So you're cramming, you're getting it all in there. And then you wait and guess what? Sometimes it's a no. A lot of times it's a no. So I think that's probably the hardest part. It's the emotional roller coaster of a hurry up and wait. Is the hardest part? Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. All right. Well, last one, the most surprising thing I've learned during my tenure at Tribe in Sofar is blank. So I hate to give away all my secrets, but I have been surprised with the size of the book that I have and the layers of imports, which probably don't seem like the most exciting thing. Right? Everybody's talking about fun labels and our TDAs and flavored. I think you'd be surprised if you come prepared, you do your gap analysis, you look through and truly again, give the customer what they're looking for and show them they're looking for help in this. I've had over the last couple weeks or positive feedback about like, wow, I haven't looked at it that way. We should figure out a way to make some of these, you know, even import brands, maybe not the most complicated of them, but like, how can we build discovery sets and do a better job of that within chains that I just wouldn't think that they'd be interested in. It's been refreshing to see like, hey, there is an opportunity to find some of these other brands and find these homes or these more unique burritos to have space in these chains again. Well, and it sounds like you're approaching it really from a partnership perspective as well, where you're saying like, okay, here's another way that you can think about it. So that's a really interesting takeaway that I think a lot of people will appreciate. All right, well, there's a last question that we always like to ask guests and it is, let's say that a drinks entrepreneur asks you for a book, a movie industry group, what have you, something or someone to give them inspiration and insight. What or who would you recommend? You know, and I struggled with this one. I went round and round and everything. Know that I have like one. I mean, the science business of drinks course, right? I love the newsletters and the articles. So I sign up for like an obnoxious amount of them, whether it's Bev, Ned, Mark Brown, Shankin, anything and everything, even Naxx, which is the convenience newsletters that come through every day, the insights that you get from some of those to kind of be able to speak to your customers on. I don't know if I have one specific but the newsletters and take that time. I kind of like set the side some time, try to in the morning, you know, with my coffee to just scan through and look and then a lot of times it needs you some rals and you kind of take through there. So from national accounts and I'm looking at trends versus maybe people digging into more of the tariff changes and you know, a little bit more of that side of the business, the financial side for me. It's all about going through those newsletters and seeing what people are doing and all that. Well, I think that is a great insight and a great place for us to conclude. So thank you, Caitlin, so much for coming on the Business of Drinks. Thank you. This was so fun. Really appreciate it and have a have a great rest of your week. Thanks for joining us on Business of Drinks. Subscribe on YouTube at Business of Drinks podcast. Follow us on Spotify or listen in on Apple or wherever you get your podcasts. Please tap the notification button so you'll be the first to know when a new episode drops. And help us spread the word, click those star ratings, give us a review and share episodes or clips on your socials. It really helps us reach new listeners. Finally, if there's something that you'd like us to cover on the podcast, tell us. We're at
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