How Would Permanent Daylight Time Affect D.C. Golf? NGCOA CEO Jay Karen Weighs In

Welcome back to District of Sports, I'm George Gerbow, find us wherever you get your podcast, just search District of Sports in your favorite podcast app, and be sure to check out all of our sports coverage at washingtontimes.com/sports. September is here. The summer sunlight is fading into fall color, and one of America's most hated rituals is right around the corner, at least for now. Daylight saving time ends November 1st, and the turning back of the clock that comes with it is one of the more low the exercises in American life. An associated press poll from October 2025 found only 12% of respondents favor the twice yearly switching of our clocks with 47% opposed and 40% neutral. In that same poll, 56% prefer the nation choose Daylight time, the period between the second Sunday and March and the first Sunday in November, as the default standard. That's where the Sunshine Protection Act comes in. The bill will make Daylight time permanent past the House 308 to 117 in July, and waits action in the Senate. President Trump has endorsed the initiative, and 20 states have already passed measures to enact permanent DST of Congress Allows, with Delaware the closest state in our area to do so. For the District of Columbia, the sun would set no earlier than 546 pm in the deepest part of winter, if DST was permanent, according to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. You're probably wondering what all of that has to do with sports. Well, the change would affect many parts of American life, and that includes the sports and recreation world closest to you here in the DMV. Think you sports, ski resorts, and more. One place that would see impacts on both ends, with later mornings and later evenings being affected, is golf. And for this edition of the District of Sports, I am pleased to be joined by the CEO of the National Golf Course Owners Association, Jay Karen, Jay Welcom, thanks for taking the time. Thanks for the invite, George. Looking forward to talking to a little golf with you. Absolutely. Golf, and things that didn't even span the broader golf community and include the sports community in and around the DMV, a place will be impacted significantly by the Sunshine Protection Act. So we've been talking in this town, in permanent standard time, permanent Daylight time, the debate between the two for many years. You have had the experience of coming to the District and testifying both on Capitol Hill and in both chambers, on the House side and in the Senate side for the respective committees, which will get into their responsibilities for this act. But I guess just off the top, the simple question that's also complicated. Your organization supports this, and the main reasons why the NGCOA is behind an effort to essentially make Daylight time, which we are in right now, as we speak here in September, making that the permanent standard for the U.S. I'm going to split a hair with you on that, George, because, you know, team it up is oh, we support it as an association is close, but not perfect description of it. And that's actually, that was actually, if you look at what I brought to my testimony in both the Senate and the House on this very matter, was I felt my role was to accurately reflect the complex nature of it, while our industry is, there's a strong favorability towards permanent Daylight saving time. We're not in unanimity in the Gulf industry. And so I really had to explain that to Senator Cruz and the Committee and so forth. And I continue to want to do that, because the way I frame it, George, is like, there are a lot of people in Congress who just want to stop changing the clock. You know, the President wants to stop changing the clock. People just say, "Oh, it's an anachronism. We don't need to do this anymore." Okay, fine. If we're going to stop changing the clock, there's actually a movement called lock the clock. There's advocacy movement just unlocking the clock because they have their own set of data and research that proves that the day after clock's change, a lot of bad things happen in society. Like, research proves a lot of bad things happen in society. So I get this sentiment on that. Okay, fine. Then if Congress and the White House are going to pick a side, then we're saying, well, then pick Daylight saving time. The golf industry says, pick that side, even though there are, I'd say, when we pulled our members, golf course owners and operators, single-digit percentage of our members would prefer permanent standard time, right, where the sun shines more in the morning than in the afternoon. Very few, but six or seven percent, I think, identified that. About 24 percent or so said, you know what, I like the way it is. We love Daylight saving time. We get all that afternoon play, but then the winter time, we kind of like the reprieve. We like how it slows down. We like the sun setting a little earlier so that our staff get a little bit of a break. They can go home, you know, and all of these things. And then two-thirds say, no, man, we would love permanent daylight saving time. So my job is to reflect the favorability of that and explain the positive and/or negative impacts on picking a side of what that means. So, golf is very favorable, George, but we're actually not as an industry, actually. Our association is pushing, you know, the Sunshine Protection Act because it's getting momentum. So I'd rather that than standard time. The golf industry is a whole through the American Golf Industry Coalition. We're not actively lobbying for this, but we're happy to share what we think of the impacts. And that leads perfectly into kind of one of the thoughts that I had. I last, I was the on vacation in Florida last month and I did both ends of the spectrum where I got up for some morning rounds and the clientele, especially in the south, especially in Florida, is different. It's fun. You know, I like playing with, I usually go, I like going out as a single sometimes, but if I get paired up with other singles, that's perfectly fine. And you know, paired up with different older gentlemen and hey, I'm a retiree or my family's down here or this and that type of thing. And it's fun. And God bless them. I was going out at eight and they were out there in the seven o'clock and the late six o'clock hours playing those early morning tea times. At the same time at the other end of the spectrum played around, ironically at your course of the year at Walt Disney World Resort, Palm, one of my favorites. I love playing those courses when I'm in central Florida and got a 410 tea time and the starter was like, I don't know if you'll get it in and I'm like, you don't know how fast I play and me and my playing partner pull back in right post sunset. So sunset is the number when the sun goes down and then you got a nice, if you can still see the golf ball in the evening, 15 minute window. And so we got in a 418. So you know, that's both ends of the spectrum. But I think a lot about people in warmer climates in the south and retirees and so forth who really love those early morning hours, opposed to young professionals like myself. I do like the afternoon because then I can finish work and go out, maybe get in nine or get in a twilight 12 or something like that. So yeah, from your membership, maybe in that region of the country, have they been more, yeah, we like these early hours because there's a dedicated base of people we know that are going to come out and play early. Right. That's a great question. So when you look at that single digit percentage of vehemently in support of standard time being made permanent, what they say in their comments, because it's not just how they answer, we ask them to comment, you know, really give us why. And some of the sentiments shared were, yeah, our early morning golfers don't mess with our early morning golfers, so I get that, you know, it's especially if they're retirees and they want to make their 11 o'clock canasta game, you know, it's like, you know, you got, don't screw with the, don't screw with the morning tea time. So I totally get that and the, and so there is some sentiment there, right? But the tradeoff would be obviously there's, there's opening in many places in the afternoon for more play because more people are available to play golf and recreate in the afternoons than they are first thing in the morning. So there's a tradeoff there that would happen. So in either way, the golf course, I don't think is losing. It's just they don't want to don't mess with what's not broken for them, right? And that's just again, a small percentage and the only other kind of anecdotal feedback we got on who might be opposed to daylight saving time being made permanent were some resorts actually, they said because if golfers are playing later into the evening, you know, maybe they're finishing up at 7 30 or 8 o'clock instead of 6 30 or 7 o'clock, it might prevent them from coming into the dining room and taking advantage of the food and beverage on the restaurant side of the business. So they're afraid it might have a little bit of a softening effect on the food and beverage actually if they're out in the golf course. And so, so I totally get, again, that's another disruption that, you know, would be unfavorable for some, but again, small, small percentage. So those are the only vocal sentiments shared with us as to, no, no, we wouldn't really want this. Speaking with your membership in the Mid-Atlantic region here with, you know, Virginia, Maryland, DC, Delaware of the, there's 19, excuse me, 20 states so far that have, you know, backed the, their own, that are backing the permanent daylight time, the only one in our area here is Delaware, which has a coastal presence, of course, on the, on the bay and out on the eastern shore, on the Del Marva membership here, have you heard from them that they would like the benefit, the note, I checked the NOAA numbers and if this, if the time switch did happen, the earliest, a sunset would happen during those, quote, unquote, winter months would be 546, that's like a good hour plus because now when it gets to 430 and you're leaving work from the hill or you're leaving the sun's already, it's already feels dark on the, on, on 66 when you're driving around here, and now to get an extra hour of that, maybe you can get out earlier at 4 o'clock or 330, play nine holes or something like that, so have you heard from your mid-Atlantic membership about would they be in favor of something? Yeah, you know, so it's, you know, for the, for the, this is such a regional impact question right? And the DMV area, Mid-Atlantic area, is in a bit of a sweet spot for benefiting from this in many ways, right? Because you have a real winter, but golf can still be playable intermittently, especially like into November, and then again, February through March, if you get decent temperatures, which we're seeing some interesting rise in temperatures on the globe, that-- - Of course, just don't close around here. Yeah, like in other places. They'll stay open, and if they can get people out there, they'll do their rest to get them out there. - But also think about after-school programs, high school golf has been having trouble accessing teetimes because of the high demand on T-sheets, right? So if you open up from November to March, a little bit more availability for after-school programs, lessons, people are gonna take lessons after work, not before work, right? So the impact of this is not just on the T-sheet. There's so much going on at the golf course, right? And so yeah, sorry, I would estimate. Now, this is just extrapolating from national data and the research that we did on this, that the average public golf course in the DMV area could probably benefit automatically in the first year about 1,000 more rounds of golf, at a typical public golf course, right? And so the economic impact of that is easily $50 to $100,000 in revenue, and in addition to all the health benefits of the Americans that are enjoying all that. So the DMV is in a sweet spot in that they're still gonna get the reprieve that they might enjoy a little bit and the wintertime things slow down a little bit. But if you're a small business owner, George, if you own a golf course in Virginia, Pennsylvania, Maryland, or whatever, you're own a public golf course, it is a tough, tough business. Yes, we're in a high demand market right now, but costs are going through the roof. You ask any small business owner, if I can eek out X number of more and inventory that I can sell, would I do it? Yes, I would, I need that revenue to keep us going. So, and golf is a small business industry, right? And so, yeah, I think that DMV would benefit nicely from it, but not be like, it wouldn't be a game changer, but it would certainly aboo their business in some difficult months, yeah. - You make a good transition point about how the owners of courses would be affected, and I think of all the people that golfers may not see that go into what makes a course greater successful, the people who are attend in the bunkers, the people who do turf management, the people that are going out there and cutting the holes and putting the pins in every, right? And all the ancillary things, cleaning the folks, cleaning the carts and replenish the sand and the fill in those things. And all of that, does it make their job, it shifts the timeline, obviously, but have you heard anything that, hey, this, if we have to now clean carts or moe or rake or roll greens at X hour, and it's gonna be dark as opposed to this hour when we did it and it was light, that affects us negatively, have you heard feedback in that form? - We have, it's funny you mentioned that today, yesterday was thank a superintendent day. So, let's all thank our golf course superintendents around the country for what they do and taking good care of the land, water and air that we have at golf courses. So that's a great question. And we talked to the Golf Course Superintendents Association of America a bit about this. And their membership is more mixed and not quite as positive as the owners and operators of the business because of the hours, longer hours, if it adds an hour to the day of work, you can look at it one or two ways. Either it adds an hour, if you start the day at the same time, but it adds an hour, then it's adding labor issues and so forth. If you shift your hour completely to the new clock, then it's really just, it's a disruption, but it's not an additional burden as far as number of hours that need to be put against it. It's just shifting the hour of when they do the work, right? And so it depends, it's a management question, George, and you're gonna have more mixed response from the employees than you would the business owners, right? - Yes. - And who I represent and they're looking obviously to keep the business sustainable. I know what I will say, give me that extra hour, sunshine, I'll make it work, I'll figure it out. Employees would say, look, timeout, how is this gonna impact me, right? So that's why we're not, we don't speak in one unified chorus as a golf industry on this issue. That's why NGCOA steps out a little bit from all of our brethren organizations in golf to talk about this particular issue. - Your brethren's in golf speaking of, and perhaps brethren's in other sports have you, have the NGCOA been able to connect with other sports? You mentioned kids after school programs, it's a great one that I didn't think of. I think about the ski industry, which I've read and have heard about this affects them in that when you shift a lot of ski resorts, especially in the Rockies and in Colorado, they're closing at four o'clock, and some of their lifts on terrain that's farther away from where the base area is are closing at three because you've got to make sure you get X amount of, once people come down there on the hill for as long as they're gonna be on the hill, and you've got to get them out of that area, make sure all that's secured, and so perhaps having later days for them, some of those resorts out there are in benefit, and of those 20 states that have passed measures to enact permanent DST, the vast majority of the chunks of them are in the Pacific Northwest Rocky Mountains, and then in the Southeast, right? 'Cause it does benefit those folks probably the most, but have you heard from or have been in communication with other interest groups, industries, sports activities around the country that this would also be kind of a unified front that you guys can have? - Good question, George. We have not, and I'll say probably for us, it reflects what I said earlier in our mixed response rather than our, we're all in, we wanna push for this. So we haven't done the outreach and the full court press to try to get it passed, and these alliances would make total sense. What I will say though, is that if permanent standard time got wind behind its sales and strong lobbying efforts to try to make that happen, it looked like that was gaining momentum, then I think the alliances would start coming into play, because of the damage that would cause the flip side of that coin would be, if standard time was made permanent, it would be an economic grenade to the Gulf industry, and to other industries, if the sun was setting even earlier on the clock, especially in the summer months and so forth. So I think alliances would come into play if we felt like we were under threat, more than looking to exploit this opportunity for economic advantage, so let's get into an alliance. It's really, it's not quite that strong. - Let me get you out of here on this. You mentioned your testimony in both different committees, the Bill, the Sunshine Protection Act has passed, the House overwhelmingly 300-nate to 117. It now in July, right before Congress went out of town for recess, they are not in session for a good chunk here of the fall as we get to the midterms, but this is still, as you mentioned, not only an issue that both chambers, it's been percolating for years. I feel like I've heard about it for the better part of a decade, but the most momentum I've seen is now. Previously, you just introduced a Bill and it kind of sat there and folks like yourself and others will testify in front of a committee, and it gets no action, right? But in this instance, it made it out of the House, made it through the full House, now waiting in the Senate Commerce Committee, which you've testified to last year. Your sense of, and of course, the President has said, multiple times that he backs it, I'll give the numbers for the folks in the majority of Americans, only 12% favor, switching the clocks twice a year as we currently do, and of which time you prefer 56% of Americans, prefer permanent daylight time associated press poll, both of those numbers from last October. So it does have the support of a good chunk of Americans. Do you think, based on your experience with talking with Senator Cruz and other folks on the Hill that there is actual real momentum that this will perhaps get passed by the end of the year by the end of this Congress? - You're asking me to read the tea leaves of Washington, George, come on. - I know. - You can lose in game. (laughing) Well, the funny thing about that is just a few a couple of years ago, it passed the Senate and failed in the House. - The reverse, yeah. - Completely passed in the Senate, which by the way, was a shocker how fast and how much support it got. So things are lined up so that it could pass, right? I'm hearing it's stalling in the Senate for, that it's slowed down. And now we're in the midterm election season right now. And this feels like a hill people might feel like they're gonna die on. And so as they're seeking reelection and whatever, are they gonna take up a pretty controversial? And it is controversial, it's your point. If 56% say they want daylight saving time, then a strong percentage of Americans don't, right? They would rather have standard time that may permanent or even status quo would have you. And so even though there's a majority of Americans that might voice the hour in favor, it's still, there are real winners and losers around whichever direction it goes. And so if I was a betting guy, I'd say this little chance it'll get passed in this Congress. I think next year, see, depending upon how the table gets reset a little bit with the momentum in the house, I think we could continue with that again. And if there might be, is there a new leadership in the Senate or new committee heads or whatever, we'll probably be starting over a little bit, but that momentum we can build upon next year. If it doesn't happen by the end of this year. - I'll close with this. You represent the folks who, people like myself play at a lot of local, quite grew up in West Virginia, a lot of local courses owned by families and people you see like that, a lot of good public courses in the DMV in Maryland and Virginia, not only county owned, but also some local public courses, small courses, par threes and everything like that. The state of the game from your perspective, I think people, you know, were golf fans, where there's a lot of people who are golf fans, especially in our region, we get to see professionals come through. When we have tournaments here, it's a big focus and it's a new focus area for the PGA tour. Commissioner Brian Rollap said that they want to get an event back in the in the DMV area, the DC or Baltimore areas. And I think a lot of people get disillusioned with stuff with live and they've been chapter 11 and all that stuff has happened and like the, you know, the big civil war of golf is up here, but for the rest of us that are down here that just like to go out and play, then we follow golf, we're fans of golf, we're fans of the pros, but down here we're just playing the state of the game on that local level, not as you see it from your seat. So, you know, all that live golf PGA tour and all that, I got a lot of friends in that area, I call that affectionately golf Hollywood. You know, that's golf Hollywood. And that's what gets all the attention in the media and so forth, but the real game, you know, we're 102 billion dollar industry is the epicenter of the real business and game of golf are the golf courses, the 15,000 golf courses around America, right? And so that's where this lives. And I will say it is as healthy as it's ever been. The supply and demand curve is incredibly healthy and the, you know, knock on wood here, you know, the future is looking very bright because the millions of people that came to the game in the past six years have done so for the very same reasons that they stay with the game forever because the last time we saw this increased George was the tiger effect. And we had millions of people gravitate towards the game, not because I want to get outside, I want to be with friends, I want to do this thing. It was like, oh my gosh, look at this rock star. Oh, I've got to check this out, try it out. This is so cool. And it didn't translate into retention. Now with the millions of people that have come to the game, and also we have a whole new culture, a young culture claiming the game for themselves, you know, and that social media aspect of it, YouTube golfers, you name it whatever. There's, there's, you know, more women and girls and people of color are taking up the game than ever before. They're claiming the game, right? And so this is, the future is bright because finally the game of golf is starting to look like America, right? And that's the most sustainable thing we could ask for. And it's moving in that direction. So, so George, it's very, very healthy. It's almost like it's too healthy because it's hard to get a tea time. I hear you on that. You see a more people out there. I'm like, okay, that's better for me who's like a, you know, mid to high handicap, and then it makes me feel a little bit better about my game sometimes. But Jay, I appreciate it. Thank you for the time and lightning discussion and still a lot to be played out on the hill with this. But we know you'll have tabs on it and we will as well and appreciate the time. Anytime you want to talk, shop, George, I'd be happy to. With only a few legislative weeks left in this Congress, the Sunshine Protection Act awaits action in the Senate Commerce, Science, and Transportation Committee. A reminder to find district of sports wherever you get your podcast, just search district of sports in your favorite podcast app. Be sure to follow us on social media @washtime sports @gurbo3 for myself and my colleague, Liam Griffin at by Liam Griffin. And be sure to visit washinantimes.com/sports for all of our latest sports coverage. I'm George Gerbow. Thanks for listening and we'll see you next time.