How Women Can Make F*ck You Wealth in 2026 ft. Jenny Park (Finance Creator & Brand Partnerships Lead)

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Like, I still had this voice in my head that was like, who do you think you are? I also had a few questions. Coworkers, that was kind of shit on it. What? Women should feel empowered to make money. But sometimes I still question, like, do I deserve it? That's tied to the whole belief that women are too greedy if they want money just for the sake of it. That's true. You can't just go out there and be like, I want $3 million. No. Yo, women are making some crazy money in 2026. Let's talk about two substantial cases. First one, Jessie Jean. When she opened round two, guess how much money she made? $2 million? $3? Keep going. $4? $6? Higher? She made $7.5 million? Yes. What are we doing here right now? Like, we need to go. Office Drama. Welcome to Office Drama, where we define the modern career for Gen Z and millennials today. In the office, we have a very rare breed. She is a tech creator based in LA. And you know, they don't really exist in LA. So I'm very thankful to have her. She's been working in marketing and brand partnerships for 13 years, starting at General Mills on Cheerios, then LinkedIn, where we met, and now at Netflix. She creates content on personal finance, on building wealth, on how her and her husband overcame their $120,000 worth of debt in under three years. And she talks about creator money, status, and pop culture commentary. Please welcome my good friend, Jenny Paul. Yay! Ah, in the building. Ah! I'm so happy to be here. Yay! Oh my God. Chloe, your setup is so cool. I'm so glad you finally got to come. I'm very impressed. Yeah. I'm blown away by everything. Last time we collaborated was your podcast for Shark Tank. Last. Actually, this time last year. Because that was around creating cultivators. Yes, yes. Because, like, you had a film, and then you went to Create and Cultivate. So we just got back from Create and Cultivate, which we'll talk about. But just to warm everyone up for the Drama Llamas, I need for you to explain how we know each other. Okay, Drama Llamas. Chloe and I met when I was at LinkedIn. I just. Just started working on creator and talent partnerships, and we invited Chloe to VidCon as LinkedIn the brand. LinkedIn was like, how do we get Chloe to start. Like, I think you were already posting on LinkedIn at the time, right? I was. I was. We were like, Chloe's a unicorn. We need Chloe to, like, have a relationship with us. Oh, that's what you guys were saying internally? Yeah, we were like, LinkedIn loves you. And we met at the VidCon rooftop, and instantly we were just like, Hi. Romantic. Hi, let's be friends. And then we hung out in Culver City, I think, because that's when I was living there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the rest is history. I was not even a creator at that time, I don't think, when we met. Uh-huh. That's true. You were on talent partnerships? I was. At the time when we met, it was called talent partnerships. It was basically trying to acquire celebrities and influencers to post more on LinkedIn, because it then increased other people's time spent on LinkedIn. Oh, I see. So I was, like, onboarding at the time, like, Ryan Reynolds, Gabrielle Union, those people on. Chloe Shi. Mindy Kaling. Ugh, I can't. Mindy Kaling, Mr. Beast. What did the celebrities think of LinkedIn at the time? I feel like we were targeting the celebrities that made sense. It was celebrities who were looking to build businesses or were, like, trying to attract other businesses, like a Ryan Reynolds or Mindy Kaling. Wait, what? What kind of business is Ryan Reynolds trying to run? Oh, my God, so many. He might have sold some of them by now, but Mint Mobile. Oh, yeah. There's an alcohol company. And then Maximum Effort, which is a marketing advertising agency. Ashton Kutcher. Ashton Kutcher. Uh-huh. Wow, such controversial names we're seeing right now. Ashton Kutcher also has businesses. On his company. Jessica Alba. Yeah. Wait, this is fun. Give me another one. Businesses. Jennifer Gardner. For what? What does she do? Once Upon a Farmhouse. Whoa. Oh, Reese Witherspoon. Reese Witherspoon, Icon, Hello Sunshine. So they all were, like, conversations that you had to have for LinkedIn. Yeah, it was talking to their talent managers and publicists about why they should build an audience on LinkedIn. Our biggest pull was that it would give them credibility and differentiate themselves from no longer just a celebrity or a public persona, but as, like, a business leader. And so once Ryan Reynolds started having a presence on LinkedIn, so many CEOs and CMOs, because that was the audience, were then reaching out to Ryan Reynolds to be like, will you come speak? Will you come speak at our business leadership conference? Okay. And so they started making so much money from, like, doing, like, From speaking? Yeah, conferences and off-sites. But they're so inspiring, so it made sense. They're inspiring? My hot take is when celebrities speak at business conferences, it's, like, really bad. You gotta have the right person. Okay, I want people to know a little bit more about your personality. Kenny, to the drama llamas, explain, tell them what your MBTI and astrology sign is. Okay, my Myers-Briggs is ENFP. ENFP? Mm-hmm. And I'm a Leo. And do you resonate with the Leo? I'm such a Leo. I am, like, through and through a Leo. This weekend at Crayon Cultivate, why it was so fun for me is because it was just, like, attention and compliments to the maximum degree. That's why I'm on such a high. I'm like, I can ride off the wave of this attention that I got from this weekend for the following, like, two weeks. And then I'll be depleted and I want a little bit more attention. I always love hearing about your work whenever we chat, but you don't talk about your work ever online, which I feel like is such a myth. Because sometimes we would talk and be like, oh my god, Jenny, you should definitely do, like, a piece on this. And then you're like, why don't you talk about more of your work? Because, like, that's so fascinating. Well, on Instagram, I'll post stories or, like, carousels of, like, things behind the scenes or, like, when I'm doing work stuff. But I feel like, I don't know why Instagram stories I feel is, like, different than content. I'm very mindful of making sure it never seems like I'm using my employer's brand to benefit myself. So even when I was at LinkedIn, I was careful until my boss was like, actually, will you talk about LinkedIn? I think that'll be good for our brand. And then I talked more about it. But then when I came over to Netflix, one in the beginning, I was like, I want them to know I'm, like, going to commit to the job. And that's what I'm doing. That's my priority. So I never wanted them to second-guess that. And I don't think I had built the equity yet. And then even now, I'm two and a half years in, and I want to keep it separate. I don't want to use Netflix's name to grow my brand. And I also don't want to ever make, like, Netflix uncomfortable and, like, question where I stand. And, like, I think because I have it, it's given me a little bit more freedom and flexibility to lean into content and not feel nervous about it. But I think if I did talk about Netflix, I would feel constantly surveilled. You are very respectful, and you are very conservative in that respect. Because, like, there's a lot of people, you know, 23-year-olds. They're in a company. After three months, they just start creating the content on every company. I was jealous for a little bit. Remember there was a heyday when people would be like, come with me to work at Google or come with me to Facebook. Like, I was jealous of those girls doing that because their content was so good. But I was just too scared. Everyone has gotten flagged by HR. You think so? No, I know so. I know it. I thought Facebook was just more chill. Facebook is not chill at all. Interesting. Yeah, I've gotten in trouble, too, at Facebook for, like, doing basically nothing. I follow a few creators still who work at Meta, and they post about it. But it's not like. It's not like day-in-the-life. It's like projects they're working on, which maybe that's okay, but. Wait, what? That does not sound okay. Okay, Christy Dash and Eva Chen are two creators I love. Oh, I mean, if you're at the top, you can do anything. It's like Adam Mosseri talking and posting. Yeah, that's fair. Yeah, and now Tessa Lyons' product on Instagram. She started an Instagram. I think it's way more accepted now, but, like, three, five, six years ago, it was not a good look. It was, like, really cringe. I agree. Yeah, but all of us have gotten in trouble. I wanted to talk about a little bit more of your non-work lore and what led you to create content. Content around money, wealth, status, debt, personal finance. I know you have your spiel. My spiel. I've heard you do it at Green Cultivate this weekend. That's so funny. You're so good at it, by the way. Like, the whole, like, what do you do? What's your, like, what are you about? I hate answering that question. Yes. Okay, I went to a dinner on Friday, and they were like, who are you? And I was like, oh, that's such a good question. Like, how do I talk about myself? Like, I feel like I'm not, but thank you. I started creating content in December 2021. Yeah. Because I had just gotten rejected from the, Forbes 30 under 30 list. Yeah, I remember. We had this conversation. I know. And my friend Nneka was like, well, number one, I was, like, so embarrassed that I cared. I was embarrassed that I cared about it. Yeah. Embarrassed that I got rejected. And Nneka was like, why do you care so much? Like, that list is antiquated. Like, what did you think this list was going to do for you? It would get us in jail. Why would it get us in jail? The Forbes 30 to jail pipeline is strong. That's hilarious. I don't think I would do very well in jail. Me neither. But I'm more likely to go to jail than you are. What are you doing that's getting you in jail, Chloe? I don't know, but we'll find out. I'm excited. If you were to go to jail, what do you think you would get in jail for? I think mine would be, like, accidentally hitting someone with my car. Jenny, you can't. I'm just not a good driver. I don't know yet, but. Like, tax fraud? No, I'm pretty good with that. I don't know. I need to look up illegal stuff. Okay. I need to look up more illegal things, and I'll get back to you. Okay, anyway, so I didn't get Forbes 30 under 30. My friend Nneka was like, why do you care? And I was like, I just feel like I could do more than this, and I thought this list would validate that I could do more. And she's like. That feels like you're really giving up on the agency. Yeah. Also, I think I just had this belief that, like, you're more legitimate if someone else points out your potential versus, like, you claiming it yourself. And she was like, Jenny, just, like, create your own opportunities. And that, like, really stuck with me. And then that week, I started making TikToks. It was December 2021, and then I've just been doing it, and now it's been five years, which is crazy. But I didn't start talking about money. I kind of was doing everything. I talked about reality TV, books I was reading, money, work. And then, for whatever reason, money and work resonated really well. well, I think because. I was explaining things in a really, like, accessible, relatable way. And I just knew if I was going to create content, I wanted to do something that felt like it was a little bit more substantial. Like, I was, like, sharing something I was learning. And so that's kind of how it started. And your story is? My money story? Yeah. Okay, so the reason why I talk about personal finance is because, so Eugene and I got married very young. I was 23. He was 25. And neither of us learned anything about money growing up. And when we were in Minnesota, we wanted to buy a house. And we found out that, like, his credit score was, like, absolute shit. What's shit? I don't even remember. It just was so bad. Under over 600? Probably under 600 at the time. Actually, I'm making it up. I don't remember numbers very well. But it was, like, 600-something. It was not very good. And he's, like, very responsible and diligent. So we were surprised. And we had found that he had debt either accumulated from his family or, like, from student loans, whatever. And I remember feeling like, I never want to be in this position. How come we didn't know this? And so I taught myself everything about money on the internet. Like, I just got obsessed with it. Yeah. And so we got obsessed with, like, learning about money, trying to get out of that situation, living within our means. And then I got my job at LinkedIn. And we moved to San Francisco, lived on one person's salary for a couple years, paid off all our debt. You were the red winner. Yeah. I think I, for the most part, have been the primary earner between the both of us. Maybe in the beginning it was either, like, same or he made more. But then I think once I joined tech, it just absolutely accelerated. It just completely transformed money for us. You said that you inherited the debt after you guys got married. Is that how debt works? No. I think Eugene and I, though, because of the way that we view money as a couple, it's just everything is ours. Right. Okay. Yeah. So, like, I think that's how we view it. Like, partnership and life and everything is just, like, not helpful. At least for me. It may be it was easy because we were young. There was never, like, my money versus his money. So it was just ours. Yeah. Do you guys do 50-50 splits or just? No. Everything goes into one bank account. Is it a joint or is it? Yeah, joint. So you don't have individuals? Yeah. We have a joint bank account. And then we have, like, savings account. I have my own, like, retirement accounts and investment accounts. But, like, everything goes to one. But checking account is. Wow. Yeah. No pre-nup, post-nup? Yeah. Did you? How do you guys do it? We were going to do a pre-nup. Okay. And then they said, you can't have a pre-nup this close to the wedding. Because, like, we got married a little bit in a rush because I got laid off. But we were already engaged. Yeah. So we were going to do it anyways. So we were like, all right, whatever. And then I had a crazy year. And we're still working on the post-nup. But I think that we're. I just need to outline everything. It's really expensive. Do you guys share a bank account or do you have a separate bank? We have separate bank accounts and one joint account for, like, our family expenses. Yeah. Like our mortgage. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. But we both have our own separate. And then on credit cards, like, I'm an authorized user. He's an authorized user. He has my credit cards. I have his. We also feel similarly. It's been ours. And he was the main breadwinner for a long time because I wasn't making a lot of money. And then he just invested in me a lot. And then I started to skyrocket. And I was like, wow, he's so sweet. I got really lucky. Yeah. So it was a good time. I love that. That's so cute. All right. So I don't know why Jenny is amped. But I'm dead tired. Because we've been together for a long time. So we came back from Create and Cultivate. That was Saturday. Today's Monday. And I'm drowned because of the sun. It was so hot. But Create and Cultivate, it is the world's biggest festival for women in business. And it happens in LA. I think it happens in Austin, too. And a bunch of celebrity speakers come. Like, Emma Greed came. Alandria Carson from Love Island. I didn't get to see her. I didn't go to hers either. I'm so sad. I really like her. I met her once. We shook hands. Her posture is insane. Oh, she's just a. She's just sculpted. She's like. She's a Barbie. And then Alex. Earl. We got to see Alex Earl. I saw her in person. She's gorgeous. Yeah. Whitney Wolf Hurd, who's the founder of Bumble. And Halle Berry. And Cardi E performed. Cardi B. I didn't get to see Cardi B. Me neither. Was that Saturday? That was yesterday night. I did go yesterday, actually. Oh, you did? For a few hours. Okay. Yeah. I listened to Emma Greed. Oh, how was it? My friend Nadia also was on the panel. So I listened to those, too. How was Emma? I really wanted to see Emma. She looked stunning, by the way. Yeah, yeah. I saw pics. I think she said she's 47. Damn. She looked so good. She's 47? Gorgeous. Gorgeous. One thing she said that I really liked was she was talking about the importance of having hard conversations, which I feel like you are probably really good at this. Oh, yeah. And she says it's really good just to be direct with other people, especially women, and have the conversation fast. And she said the water doesn't get warmer just because you wait. And I was like, whew, I need to have hard conversations faster. Yeah, that's a good. Wait, what hard conversation are you thinking of? My manager and I have such a good relationship right now. Yeah. But in the beginning, we had to learn how to work together. And it took me a long time to say certain things that bothered me because I wanted to be easy and easygoing and like a low-maintenance employee. So I just wouldn't say things. Yeah. But then once I started saying stuff, like our relationship got so much stronger and we just worked better together. Good. I'm glad. So that's just my instinct is to wait. Really? And just adjust. Yeah, I'm like, I think I can just probably adjust. So you're more of a chameleon type at the workplace. I think I am a chameleon in life, too. That's so crazy because you're so active in my eyes. I think I'm getting better. I mean, I'm always on. Eventually. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it'll be like. It'll take you a while to say the truth. It'll take you a while. Like, I'm like, oh, this bothered me three months ago. Maybe because I'm your friend. So I don't see it in the workplace setting for you. And I hear it from you. And I'm like, you should say something. Well, even for you, like as a friend, if you did something that bothered me, I'd probably wait a few months before I told you. Oh, shit. Do you want to tell me now? Let me think what happened three months ago. No, I don't have anything. I don't have anything. Okay. So last year was our first time going to Create and Cultivate. Yeah. We hung out last year and we were like, I wish we could speak at this event. And we finally did. Yeah. We got to speak. We were on the same panel. She facilitated, moderated our panel, which is called The New Authority. Building a brand on insight, not just aesthetics. I didn't actually know it either, but that was beautiful. It was a really long title. So it was us plus who else? Sammy Cohen, who is a CEO of Social Currency. She also has a really great podcast. Julia Broom. Broom. Broom. Yes, Julia Broom. Workhorse. Alexis Barber. Yeah. Who does. Who does Material Ambitious Girl, I think. Yeah. Yeah. All great, great panelists. Yeah. And you did an incredible job. You're a really good moderator. I really liked it. So let's talk about expectations versus reality versus and how we got the gig and leading up to it, everything, because you were booked first. Yeah. So I don't know how I got connected with Jacqueline Johnson, who is the founder of Create and Cultivate and one of the co-CEOs. Her and I were mutuals for a little bit. And either end of last year, early this year, we were like talking about something else because she's building a separate thing, which you might be. Which is basically creating a platform that helps creators become angel investors. Oh, yeah. It's called Cherub. Anyway, so her and I were talking about that. And then I learned from last year that like they book their speakers pretty far in advance. They do? Yeah. Oh, like the headliners. The headliners, as well as like even the moderators. They're having the conversations probably six to seven months out. Oh, wow. And so last year I was interested in being a speaker, but I obviously was too late. So this year I like made it a mental note being like, I want to ask them six to eight months out if there's any way I could play a role. So then I DMed Jacqueline. I was like, hey, if there's any way you need someone to do something, whether it's leading a workshop or doing a moderating a panel or something, I'd love to be part of it. And she was like, oh, that's perfect. We're actually like scheduling that right now. It might have been like around February, March. So then we went back and forth a little bit. And then I think it officially got announced in June. Yeah. So we match made a little bit. So I reached out. I actually asked. I said, I want to be part of it. Did you know Jacqueline beforehand? That's why I don't know how Jacqueline and I got connected, but we were mutuals online. Oh, I mean. And then we officially met. She invited me to a Create and Cultivate event in June and I met her in person there, but we were only mutuals. And she's so, I mean, like what I'm also learning about other people, which I really like, is that when you DM them and you vibe, like then her and I just started sending voice memos to each other on Instagram DM. That's when you know they like you. And that's how people get stuff done fast. Yeah. How did you get part of it? I reached out to UTA to be like, can you talk to Create and Cultivate and see if there's a panel I can fit into? But this was after your announcement came out because I didn't even know they were planning it. So I guess they go from March all the way. To your panel. Yes. Yeah. I guess they continue all the way from March to, when did you have July? So I got booked pretty late. Okay. I don't know. I have a lot of details. I mean, we got our brief like a week before, right? Yeah. I got mine probably a few weeks before. I feel like that's how it works now. Now that you were able to check this off this year, how do you feel? Expectations versus reality? I feel really good. I really, really liked it. I think the few things that I wish I knew ahead of time, I'm curious to hear your thoughts, was we were in this one compound room, which is almost like a room. It's almost like a garage space, a crater compound. What would you call that? Oh, yeah. Like a warehouse. Like a warehouse vibe. And so it's really loud. And there was a session right before us. And I asked them questions. I was like, how is the intro going to be? Like, are they going to bring us all on stage at the same time? Or am I going to introduce them one by one? Are they all going to come out? And they're like, no, we want all of you girls to come in at the same time, sit on a couch, and then you're going to start talking, which is not what happened at all. Because the session before us went over. And so everyone was still transitioning, talking. And then Tony Bravo, who's also like another incredible. Creator introduced me and I just came up and then I'm like standing on stage being like, what am I supposed to do here? So I like sat on the chair for a few seconds and then I stood up and then I just started like, I was like, whatever, I'm just going to go for it. You did. I just went for it. And then you guys came on, came on. So that part, I was like, I wish I knew what I was walking into a little bit more, but I feel like once we got into the conversation, it was so fun. And because you're professional, you guys are all professionals. You guys made it so easy. No, we were in the backstage. We're like, are we supposed to go up? Like Jenny's out there. Like, are we like, is anyone supposed to put us up there? And then I'm like, yeah, we got to go. We got to go. We got to go, guys. Thank God you guys came up. Yeah. She's like, she's saying her name. She's saying her names right now. And there was no one telling us anything. We're going. That was hard. The second thing that was hard for me was we didn't have monitors or we didn't have yet in ears. And so all I could hear were other people talking. So I couldn't hear. I was like, can they hear us? Yeah. But then everyone said they could. So I thought that was really fun. Not going to lie. I don't think I could hear on the stage. Yeah. Like, could you hear any of us? I tried my best. I had to use every brain cell. Yeah. Me too. Yeah. It was so hot. I was like sitting up there and I was like, you are so pregnant, girl. Like, dude, yeah, the fact that you came up is accomplishment and a feat. I remember you asked me a question. I was like, I hope I'm answering this question because I don't really remember what she asked me. You answered so good. All right, let's lock in. We got to lock in. You know what, though? I actually think not being able to hear well helped me because then it forced me to listen. And it forced me to be like, I'm going to put the questions aside and I just have to actually like pay attention to every word you guys say. I think what was really cool was there were so many women who came and flew from other parts of the country. They flew in, they bought a plane ticket, they bought a hotel, they bought a ticket, which was not. It's expensive. Yeah, it's not cheap. It's not cheap. And they all were like ready to invest in themselves and meet other people. And I was kind of inspired by that. I was like, that's actually really cool. I know. And they came for our talk, which I didn't know if people would come. It was a full house. Yeah, it was like 300 people. Really? Yeah. That's the capacity of the room and other people standing in the back too. What was your expectation versus reality? Well, I was scared that no one would come. You don't really know what type of stage you're getting. And it's like a new venue. And I was scared. I didn't really promote it. I didn't have time. I'm sorry. But it was a full house. And then I didn't quite understand the topic of the panel. Like I think there were three topics that we covered. Tell me. The first one was how do you find the thing worth explaining? I guess like backtracking. This is all about being like an authoritative. Authority-based creator. So like a values education. Versus just aesthetic and lifestyle. Yeah, aesthetic and lifestyle. Like buy my blah, blah, blah. Three parts. How do you find the thing worth explaining when you have a topic? The second is what does the work behind the content actually look like? And the third is how do you keep authority once people start listening? Those are the three parts. And I think the topics were so high-level bird's-eye view that I was like, I don't know what we're trying to do here. Yeah. I was really confused. Here's my assessment though of Chloe. She. In everything she does. Oh, okay. Are you going to psycho now? Yes, I am. Analyze me? Yes, I am. And I think it is your biggest. Strength. And I also think it's your. My detriment. My downfall. Maybe. Maybe. I don't know. Detriment or something. It's your. It's your not positive thing. Okay. I'm ready to hear it. But it's your strength too. Is that Chloe. Oh, I got really passionate. Chloe sees value as something that has to go like so deep. And has to be really thorough. And like it has to be like when you take a college class. She doesn't like think of 101. She thinks of like 301. Like it has to be like mastery advancement level. Advanced. But there is still so much value. In something being like here. And like accessible. And like relatable I think. So I think the three topics were very good. Okay. And I think people found a lot of value from it. And I think there were so many things that you said. That like I was nodding along to. And other people were nodding along to. Even though we didn't spend like 45 minutes in it. And also like our attention span now Chloe is so bad. Like we just want to hear a 30 second nugget. We can't listen to a 50 minute seminar. Yo, I have a pretty good attention span. I have a pretty good attention span. Yeah, but you are top 1% IQ maybe. Maybe not 5% EQ. We are going to talk about courses later too. But it is also why you haven't come out with a course yet. Yeah. Because you could be giving people so much value. If you just like met them where they were. I just don't know where they are. Oh my god. I just don't know where people are. I am like I think I gave answers this weekend. And I was like yeah I don't know if that was helpful. I also feel like if you choose to be curious. And learn from this session. You will always learn from something. Yeah, that is true. I think it was really great. I also don't do really well with motivational content. Or like motivational speeches. If it is like very. If I could do it you could too. Yeah. Like I was insecure once upon a time. But now look at me. I really hate those talks. Can I tell you one thing you said that I really liked? Okay. Okay, so one of the. I don't remember my question or what prompted it. But you said something like. When you are evaluating what to post. It either has to answer one of these questions. Oh yeah, yeah. It has to be like does it give me joy? Yeah. Is it for my portfolio? Yeah. Or is it giving value to my audience? Yes. Those are the three, right? Those are the three. And this was in response to the question of like. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was in response to this trap of you see everyone else doing so many different things. And you're like should I be doing that too? And that kind of thrash is very, very tiring. Okay. But I think the reason why that your answer is powerful is because one it like it gives you a North Star to like anchor yourself to. But secondly that like not everything you post has to be the same thing. Yeah. Like if it gives you joy then it's worth it. If it's building your portfolio like I think about even my Shark Tank podcast. Yeah. That I did and it gave me joy. But it also for me was about like building my portfolio. Like showcasing my portfolio. Like showcasing like other people and other brands. Yeah. You're multi-hyphenate. Yeah. Me in a new space. And I feel like for you, you think about that as well which I feel like is really intentional. Yeah. But other people came up and they were like wow I really love that. The answers you guys gave in the session was not you go girl believe in yourself. But you guys shared actually like practical and like vulnerable things. We just didn't go 301 for you. That's true. So that was your biggest takeaway. Another takeaway I had was I had never met Alexis before. That was my first time. Yeah. I met her before. You had? Yeah. Where did you meet her? She actually spoke on a panel for an event. That I put together for Discord. Cool. Yeah. New York. Oh when you were working at Discord? Yeah. Yeah. Oh fun. So we got to stay connected ever since then. I'm such a fan of her. Me too. Julia and Sammy and you obviously I was mutuals with. Yeah. Alexis I think I had we had been following each other but like I didn't really know her. She's legit. She's so good. I love her. But she basically said I think similar just like how she evaluates across all the things that she does. So like she was talking about how she's investing a lot in events and while events is not a moneymaker for her. It's worth it because it deepens her community. Yeah. And just like again like I think sometimes I'm like you can just evaluate all parts of your life on like a one singular like rubric. Yeah. But like you shouldn't. You really shouldn't. I'm glad that we had the group we did. Yeah. It was a really good group. I think we could have gone longer. We should have. I wish we had like 90 minutes. Yeah. But people don't want to listen for 90 minutes in a hot room. Because attention span. This is a problem in society. This is why we have podcasts. I now like when I say listen to a podcast I like watch the 30 second clip on TikTok. You're crazy. You're crazy. There's some podcasts though I listen to on my way to work. What? I listen to a lot of brain rot podcasts now. Oh like entertainment? Yeah. It's I mean it's a nice mood setter. Yeah. The entertainment brain rot ones. Yeah. It like gets you happy. I get it. I found that at the at Create and Cultivate I think the green room was really what I expected it to be more chill but it was actually really busy and tiring. Tell people what the green room was. Well what they told us was that it would be for talent to just hang and prep for their talks and that you couldn't film or take photos. Then when we got on site yeah we could film and take photos but I thought it was for the talent to like talk to each other whatever whatever but there was so much video coverage and I felt like we kept getting pulled away to do like can you do a social piece can you do a social piece and I was like oh this place is not chill either. I didn't know they said you can't film there. They said it in the brief meeting. Oh interesting. But I'm glad I wanted to take photos and videos. Yeah same. This is why you and I are opposite in this way. I loved the green room. Oh shit. I loved it. Okay. So the green room basically was also another like warehouse. Yeah but smaller. But smaller. Yeah. And they had like a few couches couch areas for you to rest and then they had these like smaller private rooms. One room was like a cover girl glam room that they could like do final touches. One room was like another couch if you wanted to film and then there was like another filming room. Did you go to the filming room with the floral arches? No. You didn't record there? It was really beautiful. No. Oh you didn't do that one. And then there was like a backdrop to take photos and stuff. Yeah. But I liked it because it was a smaller setting. Yeah. What I really liked about it too is that you could actually like network with people and like say hi to people you didn't know and like more of a smaller intimate setting. I liked that part. But I think I was just overstimulated. Maybe because I'm pregnant. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's fair. So fair. And it was really hot. It was so hot. But that's just weather. Weather for you. You can't control it. Yeah. So totally weather. I thought all the activations were really cool. The one activation that I liked the most was the reparations book. They just had this area of like different books that you could. Read and buy. And I thought that was really cool that they did that. And you love reading with the book. Reading. I love reading books and reading the room. The other things were a lot of like sponsored sections. Like there was a Chase sponsored area. Yeah. Zoom sponsored areas. Which I thought was interesting that they like blended it all together. I find that really interesting about how they bring brands and events together. I'm curious to know like how Chase is investing in this and why they did. I know. I thought there were more brands last year. Oh, that's true. Like LinkedIn had an activation last year. There was. Was there anything in day two that besides. Emma. I'm a great. Not. There was another panel and a greater compound. It was about creators who are becoming founders and whether or not creators need to become founders. Yeah. I feel like that topic has been around for like a couple of years. Yeah. It was really interesting. It was like a mix of a few founders, a few creators, and just like why that match now is perfect of not necessarily a creator having to become a founder, but like a creator and a founder working together and like that being valuable. Okay. That's good. Yeah. I liked it. It's so fun seeing all these girls dressed up and like learning and like doing their own businesses. Yeah. What is that? I like it. I like it when the girls dress up. Yeah. It's really fun. Yeah. It's like you're forced to. It's not like a tech conference in Las Vegas. No. A hundred percent. There were no logos and backpacks and Patagonias. None of that. There's a lot of heels. There's a lot of spaghetti straps. I like that. A lot of skin in a good way. What are you saying right now, Chloe? Yeah. I was just like pretty. It was pretty. It's very girly and pretty and sunshine. It was girl. I wore a tie. Oh, you did. You were very professional. I never worn a tie before, but I was kind of into it. I loved it. That looked really hot, though, because it was long sleeve. It was long sleeve. I think that's probably why I stayed in the green room for most. I remember editing and posting my first ever YouTube video and how scared I was. I was trembling, pushing that button, and I just couldn't look at my video afterwards. That was 2020. And here we are six years later. Now I'm not even a product manager anymore. This year, I started my company, Juicebox Studios, which produces this podcast. And I think it's about time to build a professional podcast. So that our business can thrive. If you're building your own thing, you should really hear about Hostinger. Hostinger is an AI-first platform that lets anyone build, run, and grow business online. You get custom domains, business email, email marketing, and an intuitive AI website builder. So it's an all-in-one platform. So if you're trying to build a personal brand or launch an e-commerce store, you can use Hostinger's AI website builder. No coding, designer, or developer needed. You just have to ask. I haven't really launched Juicebox Studios yet because I do need a landing page. So that's a good thing. That's what I asked Hostinger to do. I gave it my LinkedIn page, my social media links, and a couple of articles that we were mentioned in. And then I got my first version of my website in a couple of minutes. Hostinger builds your vision step by step. Create your website today. Go to Hostinger.com slash OfficeDrama and use code OfficeDrama for 10% off now. Throughout my 10 plus years of being a working professional, I have to say no one is good at taking notes. I just haven't seen it. Prove it to me if you disagree. But meeting notes is perhaps the one thing that makes me a closer in my work. My follow-through game is truly exceptional. Things rarely fall through the cracks when it comes across my desk. My secret is I used to furiously and fantically type away, which is like kind of distracting. But now we have Granola in our lives. Granola is an AI-powered notepad that makes your meeting notes useful. It captures what happens in your meetings and turns it into clean, structured notes with decisions and action items pulled out and made easy to find. Recently, I have been interviewing candidates for roles on my team and for my friends' businesses. And you're just meeting strangers all day. Yeah. I have to be so locked in on figuring out who they are, what their goals are, and if this would be a good match. And if I'm not 100% present, it'll be really hard for me to give a good recommendation. So having Granola take that cognitive load off of me helps with moving candidates along, and I can share my interview summary with my stakeholders so much easier. Once you try it on your first meeting, it's really hard to go without. You can try it totally for free. Head to granola.ai slash office drama. That's granola.ai slash office drama to get your time back. Go to granola.ai slash office drama. And try it on your next call. A lot of today's episode is about money and wealth and women. And you're very transparent about how much money you make on the creator side. On the creator side. On the creator side. So I wanted to ask for the people, how much money did you make at every creator milestone that you had? This is something that she's talked about before, so this is not a crazy, spicy question. I have talked about this before. I haven't said it out loud in a minute. Okay, so I started December 2021. By the end of December 2022, I made $30,000. And then end of 2023, I made $100,000. Nice. Then end of 2024, I tripled it and did $300,000. Do you remember how many followers you had at the 300K mark? I think 100. Because I remember when I made $100,000, I only had 60,000 followers. Damn. And because I was like, I'm also just like motivated by goals, I think. So I had a number goal in mind. And because like, I've told you, I genuinely never thought I had longevity as a creator. So I was like, I'm going to milk every brand deal because this might be my last year for me to do it. Which is probably why sometimes in the beginning, I took on a lot of brand deals that I don't know if I should have done. Like, it was never like, oh, this is like an authentic fit for me. Like, I didn't shill shady stuff ever. But like, I just took on every single brand deal, most brand deals I got. I didn't say no a lot. Unless it was not enough money. And then, okay, 2024. Then 2025 went down to $200,000. Mostly because I also didn't post a lot in 2025. That's when like my corporate job was like. You transitioned. Intensive. And then this year probably projected between $200,000 to $300,000. Nice. Good work. Yeah. Because you're at $200,000 now for TikTok. Yeah. And I don't know if that means anything. How do you feel? That's a big milestone. Okay. I'm curious your thoughts. I felt like when I hit like $10K, $50K, $100K, those felt like really meaningful milestones. $200K did feel really meaningful too. But by the time I hit $200,000 in TikTok, it just felt like a TikTok follower count was diluted. Versus Instagram. Versus Instagram. And I never posted on Instagram as a creator until last year. Why didn't you just cross post it? I remember we talked about this. Yeah. I think I was shy. Because you have more real friends on Instagram. Yeah. Like in your network. Like I still had this voice in my head that was like, who do you think you are? Or honestly, I also had like a few coworkers that would like kind of shit on it. What? And it's funny because then later on they would like, ask me for advice on like how to be a creator. And I have no bad feelings about it. But I think I just felt really self-conscious about what it meant to be an influencer or creator for years. How did you find out? They would tell me in meetings. They would like joke. They'd be like, oh God, I had to unfollow Jenny because she thinks she's like an influencer. They would say that in meetings? Yeah. And you were there? Yeah. And I would just like laugh it off and be like, yeah, no, totally. Like I'm so, I unfollowed you like years ago too just because I thought your content was. I don't know what I would say actually. I'd probably be like, no, stop. Don't talk about it. I don't know. I don't know what I would say. But I think because that. Wait, what? They say that out loud? That's crazy. I think they thought we had that relationship maybe. They thought it was tongue in cheek type. Maybe. But I probably internalized it for like a really long time. That's so backhanded. That's actually crazy. That's bully behavior. I didn't start posting on Instagram until Eugene started posting on Instagram. What? You had to wait for Eugene to post on Instagram for you to feel okay about it? It was more meaningful to grow on Instagram than TikTok for a little bit, I think. Yeah, that's fair. Can I ask what your biggest brand deal was for one? Just one post. Okay, I think one post. And it also had paid usage, right? I don't remember how many months. Yeah. Was 20,000. That's so good. You know, I have a friend who has 700K Instagram followers. Wow. They're in the skit space. And every video they get gets like over 100,000 likes. His biggest brand deal was 10K. Why? I don't know. And then I was like talking to him about it. And he was like, yeah, I'm so happy I just got one where it's like a retainer fee. And they pay me $6,000 a month. That's rent, man. And I'm like, how many deliverables for 6K a month? He was like, two videos. And I was like, you're in the wrong management team. You are. But also certain niches are hard. Like skits I do feel like are harder. Yeah, but at those numbers. We're at such a lucky niche. Yes. But like, that's ridiculous. Really? 100K likes? I mean, you and I have talked about this. I don't know why. I don't know why I get brand deals. Like, why are you laughing at yourself? Because I don't want any brand to hear this and not hire me because I love getting paid. It's the new authority. That's so true. I'm getting paid for talking and listening, not for any intense editing. Listen, the brand knows what they're getting when they book me. But I am kind of like, I'm not good at making ads. I'm not good at making them. You're so good at making them. We talked about this literally on. Saturday, but. Chloe said she can't half-ass brand deals. I can't. And what she meant, though, to say is that she's like, I can't half-ass them like you do, is what she meant to say. No, no, no. I didn't say that. I didn't say that. Don't put those words in my mouth. I have a really hard time doing a talking head for a brand deal. But it's also because I think you just love the craft. I do. I do. Like the video. Yeah. And making sure there's like something. Yeah. Intentional about every scene and like quick editing. Yeah. And also like you want substance in your script. Yeah. I mean, I just wanted to make it. It's a creative project for sure. I was going to ask you, because I think you make such good money in content. And if you just did that more full time, you could easily surpass, maybe even double that, honestly. Maybe triple that. Maybe. Maybe. But you're so adamant about not quitting your corporate job, even though you make pretty strong money as a creator at the size with the number of content pieces. Like if you just doubled your content output, I think like you can go so far. You're also so good at talking and listening. Listening. Like I think you're. You're so talented. Thanks, Chloe. In ways that a lot of other creators are not. And you have such a strength. But, you know, it's your decision. So why the decision? Why are you so adamant? About not quitting my job. Yeah. And I get it, too. I was there. Like I love my job. Because you love people. Yes. I like being part of something bigger. Yeah. So even if I were to ever one day quit, I would only want to do that if I could build out something. Like I'm part of like a team or building a production. Not a production company. But just like. If I had a podcast studio or if I had like. I don't know. Like I could do some sort of like speaking talk track or something like that. Like a tour. Like I don't think I would like the lifestyle of me being at home recording a video on my camera and editing it. Like I know for me, I would feel really isolated and unfulfilled. You do. And also, I have ADHD. I'm not very self-motivated. So I think having like a work structure of like accountability. Yeah, yeah. Like deliverables, milestones, and like. Performance reviews. Seeing your impact. Yeah. Versus like if I was by myself, like I think I would just like lay in bed all day. I mean, that's only because you work so much. Yeah, maybe. That's why you lay in bed all day. But I think that that makes a lot of sense because when I was in corporate, it's really hard to have such high impact experiences. Like you got to work on Earl Meets World. What are the other big. Are you allowed to share any of the big IPs that you worked on or no? I did brand partnerships for Bridgerton and for Squid Game. Isn't that crazy? Yeah. It was really fun. Wait, what? I feel very lucky. Who gets to say that? I know. It feels fun. And I've learned a lot. I think that's the thing is I learn a lot. But I feel very stimulated. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm learning from other people. Whereas like you could probably learn from anywhere. I really believe that. So I think if you did pursue content creation by yourself, like I would have to work really hard to try to find myself learning. But like I just don't know if that would be good for me. But I want to say like sometimes jealous of the people who are doing it because I think that they're able to like own their life more. Like they exercise. They like sleep right. I also think content for me. I always wonder if this is my last year. So maybe that's also why. That's a hard part. Yeah. And then like the. The bulk of like 99% of our money comes from brand deals, which we both have a love-hate relationship with. Yes. Yes. I don't like doing brand deals. To be a full-time creator and this type of creator, you just have to. That's like this is what you have to learn. It's part of the job. Yeah. It's the job. I think what I learned too in talking with you is that you see making the video and the storytelling of video as the craft. Yeah. I do see like I think the reason why I like creating content is because it gives me a platform that gives me opportunities to do things like. create and cultivate moderating because I see that as the craft of like how do I be better at like communication of like how do I disarm someone how do I build trust how do I influence how do I like push my way like all of that to me I see as a craft and I freaking love that okay but you're a marketing professional and part of brand deals are getting briefs and they're horrendous why I don't know but I'm so bad at writing a brief too I'm bad at writing a brief and I'm bad at delivering on a brief but I think a really really good brief is short and clear okay the reason why briefs are usually bad is because you have so many layers of people who are providing input and ensuring that everything is considered that eventually the inside of your organization starts showing up and bleeding outside like I remember when we would brief you at LinkedIn and I'm like my god like what what is the point actually there's like 90 CTAs in here that you're hidden and it's because you have to prioritize so ruthlessly and be okay with someone taking away one thing and it's really hard to let go of everything else yeah you have to prioritize so ruthlessly and be okay with someone taking away one thing and it's really that's valid but I think the worst is when you get a 20-page brief and you still don't know what they want you to say you are very good at delivering on a brief though why do you think you're so good at it dude I take it really seriously I will read the brief and then I will understand what this product or campaign is in the organization I'm like what are they trying to do here I look at all the past years of examples and other creators I look at the brand's public page I do deep research I try to understand the product in a deeper way it's like why is this actually good I look at reddit if they launched the product already and I just like try to get the the magic moment and then I'm like okay I think that your high level CTA it comes down to this like foundational problem or pain point that they want to solve but they don't say that in the brief because like marketing terms are so different from like what you would actually say to a real person and then I try to translate that to the real person and then I also have to mesh it with like what would work on my audience and there's a lot of brands that I'm very not good at communicating that crisp clarity and through line so I just have to make it my own first to give them a pitch so that they can go back and approve yeah but that is how you make money I'm at the beck and call of all the brand deals which I'm very grateful and I will always continue to be grateful but because I don't know how to half-ass something I take every partnership so so so seriously that I will let a lot of partnerships go if they don't honor my rates because I just will do it to the max I mean your videos are so good I feel like you're so worth your rates because you're so thorough and thoughtful I mean I genuinely feel like when a brand picks you they're getting a commercial they're getting like a full ad I try to do it commercial quality but not everyone wants that too so it's like figuring out what they would want I only take lower ones if I like it a lot and I'm like oh hell yeah yeah obviously but then if it's a controversial brand and but I'm still like down because I'm interested in so many different types of brands I still keep my rate really high I really just can't work with it yeah I think the opportunity will come back but there's a lot of scarcity mindset of like oh all these people got their deals scarcity mindset is so real like it to be even the beginning of this year I didn't get a lot of because all my brand deals are inbound yeah the brand reached out to me Jan and Feb were very light for me and I think like March April May June picked up but Jan Feb I was stressed I just was like oh my god does this mean I'm done like there's something about like the ebbs and flows about getting brand deals that does make it hard to have the mindset but I feel like my talent manager Jess is going to be like why do you keep saying you don't like brand deal so I'm sorry for saying that more than once on this podcast you love brands I love brands you love brands you love marketing you love brand partnerships but uh reading a brief and editing a video is really tough it's hard right now for me because I'm only do them on Saturdays and Sundays yeah because you're working I feel stressed if I have like four videos I need to record on a Sunday then I just get a lot of like four videos is a lot sometimes for some reason they all add up in the same week it's not always some weeks I'll have nothing some weeks I'll have like two to four videos I have to record that Sunday that's incredible yeah I think the brand deal conversation is like fascinating across creators across verticals across like types yeah even across like men versus women and very much verticals like skits are hard yeah beauty and lifestyle I think they do really really well beauty yeah beauty does really well so well I think I heard beauty pays more than tech and at this point damn what the hell yeah I pays a lot yeah well actually I don't know if AI pays a lot I don't think AI companies pay a lot I think tech companies who have AI backed yeah yeah products that want to promote the AI technology yeah I don't think AI companies pay that much because they're so new to yeah they're so new to the creator space that they don't know anything yeah and they like come in they're like well we want to start small and I'm just like no it's okay I have let go a lot of AI deals but I love talking about tech and AI and bringing that down I do want to be like a product launch partner for a I think I would like be responsible and give like a 360 and like be thorough and not be like AI shell this and that like be advisors for startup AI companies and like get equity in them and do um I do only if I like the founders but there's a lot of creepy ass people in AI startup really yeah for sure a lot of weirdos I think that AI companies could do a lot better with understanding the creator space I don't think they do but I think they're learning have you ever talked about your salary your corporate salary I have I've never done because I've left I've never done that now now that I've left I've said it but I didn't say it when I had it yeah I've never shared my corporate salary online except for when I say like oh my first salary was fifty three thousand dollars like I'll say that because that was a long ago but for some reason creator income I have shared because that feels helpful in certain contexts yeah but I do think there are certain points where like I don't know if it's helpful anymore or if it's just like clickbait I don't think it's helpful for me at my stage yeah because I feel that I put so much work in the industry that part whereas a lot of other creators will just get the deals on the table and I'm here creating pitches and campaigns before the brand knows that they're going to do a campaign yeah yeah I'm like already before them they're like thinking about it and they're talking to me off the record and I'm giving them all these ideas on their campaigns and how they should market and then probably half a year later something will land come through yeah so like it's just so many private relationships and I take my reputation in the industry so seriously I go to my coffee chats I go meet them at their companies I follow up I follow them on Instagram I follow them on I respond back to all their posts so like hype them up and like I know what they're doing their personal lives we have like check-in calls and then I talk to them like a normal human being like a friend and then I just talk to them off the record about what I think they should be doing even if it helps like another creator not just myself or I give them product feedback I could do a lot of that for free and then eventually based on the trust we'll build a partnership together yeah so I'm not like casted as something randomly that makes sense yeah usually it really is so much private relationships I think like you are incredibly professional they're buying your reputation when it comes to you it's not just because you made 50 videos last year yeah and you have xyz followers it's because you built this reputation from your background from your corporate background you have over a decade worth of experience you know what you're talking about you know how to put together a script and people trust your word okay can I say can I add one thing that I'm doing it okay one thing I was thinking about too though is that I feel like because you're right because for the for several years I was working my full-time job and mostly when I was at LinkedIn and then just because I was just working like 20 to 30 hours a week on like creating organic content and then every weekend pumping out yeah my brand deals and sometimes I did wonder like am I just being greedy like why do I keep wanting more and more money and like do I deserve this money but I think there is something about like one like wanting to make a lot of money to have freedom for like my parents Eugene's parents and then also like even having flexibility because this year even Eugene quit his job to become a full-time content creator and took on a lot of risk too so me being able to have the flexibility to take on more brand deals helped with that and I think that's a really good thing to do and I think that's a really good thing to do and I think that's a really good thing to do with the security and like helps with his dad and stuff I think I do believe so much that women should have money and should feel empowered to make money but I think sometimes I still question like do you deserve it yeah do I deserve it and whoa even like am I allowed to want more like should I just be grateful and content even though I don't want to believe that either did you go to therapy for this I actually did when I first started making content online okay and then because I think I was worried about like I knew my intention about talking about money on the girl needs to learn this but I didn't want the fact to be money's gonna make you happy and that's all you need in life like I just wanted to find that edge and guardrail that like money is not the only thing that's gonna make you happy but at the same time money is what's gonna give you freedom and girls should not be afraid to learn about money yeah girls should not be it's a girl's era right now yeah period yeah that's crazy that you felt you didn't deserve it I don't think I feel that way deserve not because I didn't work hard enough more so of like I should just be grateful for what I have is that the Asian in you maybe and also I grew up very religious I'm maybe there's like religious things in there too like why like I think there is something actually beautiful about contentment and gratitude yeah and that like you can always want more and more and never be enough so I think there's like part of that that's like true and good but then also I think that can be your own prison if you don't believe that like you can achieve so much more in life can be so much bigger if you just believe and when you start meeting people who do such big things like yourself like I think probably in 2020 I started making friends like you who were doing so much more and achieving so much more I think that also affected my mindset wow I could I could do so much more like I could actually achieve more I could make more money so I think being surrounded by people who are doing more actually raises the ceiling for you and I think that's actually why it's good to talk now I'm coming full circle yeah I think that's why it's good to talk about money sometimes because then the ceiling for you rises that you could maybe even do more too I know you hate you can do it inspire rah-rah thing but like I do I think that helps me I mean yes I agree well I think my thing is you can't have people pulling you down around you but I even think people who feel like it's stupid don't try harder can pull you down yes like they don't have to be like you suck to pull you yeah yeah they can be like why are you so ambitious yeah like you don't have to be just be grateful for what you have even that can pull you down sometimes that's true I try my best to be really grateful for what I have today because you know five years years ago I would have killed to be where I am today I'm so happy and I didn't really start making money until the last two years to be honest yeah with my career like it was kind of dicey it was like we were still not doing the best so I think I'm so grateful I never think I am lacking in that because I already hit my basic needs and like once you hit your basic needs like everything else is extra credit I'm very lucky to not have to look at a bill for a restaurant I may still do but like I can afford it and then I think I already budget everything so I know what I can afford I can afford things with my family and whatnot and Kevin and I are pretty happy and of course like we don't have the best of stuff but I think we are mentally feel secure and safe and I know I can keep going even though it's volatile I'm good here my mental health is pretty good yeah yeah more is not always more and the wise words of one rapper that I can't remember his name more money more problems something you've probably never paid attention to but changes your mood while watching my videos is hearing sounds like this this and this sound effects yes I spend so much of my time listening to each and every switch click chime notification bell shimmer to have the right audio aesthetic so you have a better cinematic experience and that I get on storyblocks storyblocks is a 100% human-made media library that's built for creators every asset in their library is made by professional filmmaker or artist never AI generated they have very tasteful selections of assets like videos images music that are professionally curated pre-licensed and ready to use in your content or even in your monetized content too over 150,000 creators and businesses rely on storyblocks as part of their workflow and every download directly supports a real working artist so head to storyblocks.com office drama to access the human-made stock media library that's essential to my workflow for a limited time they are offering 15% off any annual plan and that discount is only available through my link again that's storyblocks.com slash office drama for 15% off annual plans insurance company affiliates and other insurers not available in all states yo women are making some crazy money in 2026 let's talk about two substantial cases she's sure he knows what's coming up okay okay essentially money conversations have shifted dramatically in 2026 there are two insane stories that keep circulating in our networks and those are where my women have made stupid fu like stupid fuck you wealth in the matter of matter of weeks not a year and the first one is jessie jean we gotta talk about jessie jean okay i think the lore is that she went from 100k or 80k followers to 400k followers in four months but she was doing these yapping videos and she was like wow i like blew up and then went to 400k and it was like three four months and then she came out with a course she called it yap on camera and she did a yap challenge where she would do one life kickoff two master classes which i don't really know how long they are they could be a couple of hours or like the art of a damn good yap and i don't know what the second one is um and then 40 dares and prompts for 40 days for you as a student to post a video every single day and her cell was like to help you articulate better and show up on camera and that you doing talking head videos and yapping will i don't know whatever whatever but she had a wait list and then she opened enrollment for about two weeks and her first launch she made 1 million dollars 1.2 million 1.2 million dollars and then she closed it she released like she worked on like the cohort the first cohort one round one went they went there 40 days she opened up a new round two i don't know this actually yeah and then during the round one all the students were like or a lot of the students were like posting their yap challenge hashtag yap challenge and then all that hype and posting blew up it like broke containment to the point where when she opened round two for open enrollment for like let's go next class guess how much money she made do you know the number no is it more or less than 1.2 it's more she exceeded it girl you weren't wait you weren't following i only followed up into the first cohort launch i don't know what happened in the second you gotta get two million three are you fucking kidding me i'm not joking i'm not joking keep going four six higher seven million dollars 7.5 she made 7.5 million dollars 7.4 in two cohorts yes wait 7.4 total or 7.4 plus the 1.2 i think it's total i think she made about like six million dollars in her second cohort how many people signed up i think it's like so it's 300 for the course experience what are we doing here right now like we need to go start a course yep that's right that's that's what happened separately about justin gene do you should you should do this like okay wait hold on what i mean by this is a course but also on your podcast you should have like a 15 minute segment of like the the drama that's happening in the creator space in the creator space and not just like a 15 minute segment but like a 15 minute really i mean maybe it could be about dating life but it could be like the news yeah the business and news like how fun would that be you're so right okay anyways i can't believe you didn't follow after the one the 1.2 is nothing numbers here's my other thing in comparison having adhd is that like i get so obsessed with the topic and then i move on so i was really deep on jesse jean and then i was ready to move on you know what's crazy i actually referenced jesse jean in a previous episode on the career the millennial career crisis where it was like a little controversial where we're talking about that the millennial career crisis is here and people are really career confused whatever whatever and then jesse jean's video blew up on it but then there's a lot of rhetoric online discourse online that she copied someone else and then i referenced both and i was like whoa creator drama but i didn't have anything to say to be honest because you're just reporting you're supporting the facts i just said that and then we just moved on and then this happened i was like damn girl like go go jesse go freaking jesse we're gonna do a callback jesse jean is so good at talking and listening yeah no she's so good like i'm really impressed by her she's so good at speaking yeah her tone no you're good at speaking i like hearing you speak a lot i don't know she just feels like her tone her pacing the things that she says she's so good okay i'm like really inspired by her but i think good for her you heard me give my take i understand that there are feelings about her yeah yeah whether it's about the copying whether it's about whether it's worth it or whether she didn't fully disclose all her credibility i'm like good for her like a woman making that much money like men have done way shadier stuff yeah we like i've done we are like yeah whatever like yeah their rolex like makes it all worth it like good for jesse jean okay you ready for the next one can i say one more thing about jesse okay okay okay the other thing about jesse jean though i will say is that i feel like if you notice jesse jean always has to couch her financial success with like a narrative about like why it's okay like she'll be like i can provide for my family i can give freedom to my family i can give freedom to my family i can give that's part of it and i think that's tied to the whole belief that women are too greedy if they want money just for the sake of it that's true you can't just like go out there and be like i want three million dollars no like even me i said my numbers and suddenly i started feeling self-conscious like was that okay that i said that i wanted that i need to like validate it like jesse jean had to make it like pleasable and likeable she had a she had to kind of beat around the bush or or just like curb it yeah she had to like frame in the context of like freedom for her family and and being a provider that's so interesting that's interesting social commentary on gender dynamics yeah did you ever get comments when you said it publicly like that you wanted to hit a certain goal like did people put you down i don't really read comments i don't think so i don't think so i think the first time i made a video about my money people commented that my um captions had a lot of typos sure got it that's not an issue yeah good engagement yeah are you ready for the second case yeah okay tell me jessica carter you told me a little bit about her yeah but there's updated information okay so she took one of jesse jean's courses or rounds or whatever she started her yap videos she says that she went from a 10k to 190k followers in a couple of months on instagram good for her i know and then she was doing these yap videos and then she realized like some people had questions about how she edited her yap videos so then she launched a non-techie edits digital product that costed i think maybe 47 or 57 dollars up front but then 67 dollars later on oh okay she had like a wait list for it and then she also did the doors are closing or whatnot whatever and so it's essentially like a wait list for it and then she also did the doors are closing it was started off as a pdf where she linked out to video tutorials on how to use edits like pretty basic and at this point i in three weeks guess how much she made and she was you know sub 100k at the time hundred thousand dollars more yes that was a big number too two hundred thousand three hundred thousand four hundred thousand five hundred thousand six seven eight seven in three weeks and how many she had less than a hundred thousand followers at that time now she's at probably 190 or 200 with a 47 product yeah she's at probably 190 or 200 with a 47 product yeah you know what like i feel like i had phases at the peak of my tiktok whatever when people would tell me to put out a course and i was just so anti it for some reason like i was like i don't want to take your money like i'd rather get money from a brand and offer like a free zoom or something yeah i'm like i was dumb i'm the dumb dumb i'm dumb yeah i'm dumb you could have came out with a bazillion when you did 30 under 30 lessons and you were getting millions after million views and everyone was asking about your editing imagine if you came out with a course you would have seven million dollars not to rub it in but yeah you could have came out with a bazillion dollars and you can rub it in but you're content i mean i think your basic needs are met chloe i know i can pay for my coffee and it's awesome wow good for these people dude i don't know i have a lot of feelings about it too because course is like i think it's just the reputation of courses and digital products in the space is very like grifty heavy and very scamish because a lot of there's a lot of bad actors out there selling bad things that's true it's easy to put out a course yeah and so i didn't want to be associated with that kind of like guru vibe or whatever yeah yeah so i think i was just scared but i knew the numbers i knew that i always i was always through and through an educational creator from the get-go and i knew that i really like making educational content i love breaking something down i'm a structured thinker i love frameworks i'm a tj like i i just love my frameworks and spreadsheets and notion pages yeah but yeah i think that i i mean a lot of life happened you know got married last year and stuff got pregnant yeah and i worked brand deals join uta i've only been doing this for a year and a half full time at this point yeah full full time like when i when i realized oh this is my job job i'm not going back to tech i made that decision consciously and joined an agency so i felt like there was a lot i had to learn my first year plus like scaling the team whatever whatever building like finding a studio building out my first going from contractors working with contractors to now full-time employees and what does that look like what is longevity of this like building the foundations before i wanted to claim space and maybe that's the agent in me maybe that's just me saying it wasn't good enough then but i did release a course in taiwan for i do remember you doing this yeah yeah but that was like a different market like that's they they view courses very differently i don't know i don't know i don't know i don't i also just think you want to teach a 301 class you don't want to teach a 101 like i think you genuinely will get more joy teaching people who are a little bit more advanced versus a beginner and because you want to build out the framework and everything so when you come out with the course it's going to be like yeah needy when i was going on that post 30 lessons under 30 journey there was a lot of industry work i was doing like behind the scenes meeting people because you're essentially changing an entire industry right like you're you have to meet all these new circles go into entertainment go into brands go into marketing it's not product and engineering anymore it's not recruiters so i felt like i had to honor a lot of those relationships and they take time yeah and i i value so much of my irl reputation and my trust in my working relationship like showing up to these when people reach out and doing doing the work thing that i couldn't just like go where the money would go yeah yeah i was like this is gonna be a long-term thing so that's what i spent a lot of my time doing and going all the rounds and going to all the conferences and being like what do i need to know what i need to do i need to put in my time and put in my work i don't know why we have to feel like we need to put in our time first so i was like shocked when someone could rise have a couple hundred thousand followers in just a matter of months and be like i'm gonna sell this that was a big mental shift when i saw that i was like what i didn't know you could do that and then for the edits 101 course i was like i didn't know you could sell something isn't this supposed to be free like don't just look at the ui and be like oh okay totally i did not know that could you could sell something like that i was very surprised and i was i think that there's so much i want to build with my business and career and team like i want to give a lot to my team i want to build a better team and that requires finances and i want to do bigger things by better team i want them to have a gross trajectory no i want i want dylan to have a growth trajectory i don't want this to because i think creator space there's a lot of really bad creator managers and creator bosses out there and i think that they don't let their team grow and i look at it from a tech standpoint like how do i grow your career and like not let this be just a two-year commitment yeah like what does that mean for you and what do you think about that and i think that's next stage look like how do you be more meaningful how do you create long term because so short term i think that's so thrashy in one's career you can't really build anything substantial so we're not going to be just doing these basic videos forever we're going to hit milestones and interest like be at big stages and like whatever whatever yeah what does that look like and that requires personnel it requires investment if i want the top i need to invest for the top and i need to do like a learning education fund i need to do like get them to build their own personal brands and then for them to you know not just be an editor behind the scenes like what is um how do you be 60 and then when the time comes where they have to move on to the next stage they're prepped and ready i want it to be like anyone who passed through these chambers have touched upon the craft and quality and storytelling that nowhere else in the industry has so that takes a lot of background work that you don't see in my content do you think you want to build like a jubilee not obviously the topic of subject matter but the concept of like a media company and a brand i mean i guess yeah not on production yeah not the concept not the topic but more like it means something to have worked on chloe's team like beyond the name chloe she you want to build a brand that's bigger well kind of i guess like an a24 yeah type oh cool yeah or like a sunshine right like a hello sunshine so cool yeah but then your style changes it's like if you've gone through airbnb you know you're more design focused or if you worked at uber you're more data focused like you know what type of person you're getting like the talent that builds you and the culture that builds you and like what you notice so i want mine to be about craft and storytelling uh-huh yeah so cool there's a lot of agencies like i'm like i don't know what you do i don't know what your vibe is i feel like you have no taste you're just like crunching out videos there's no reason why i would hire you there you have no unique edge yeah yeah so that's what i mean brand is such a big overarching word yeah i think i focused on a lot of that and i didn't like use these methods of when i was hot and big and i didn't strike i also had my wedding that was like really big yeah i think that also wouldn't that's not your vibe if that's what you want to be for craft and storytelling i feel like it's a different thing yeah i guess that when it was happening i also didn't think i not that i deserve it but i was like i'm so new to this what do i know totally yeah and then i realized oh you know what one step forward even if we don't know anything yeah one thing you said about hiring that reminded me of what emma greed said that i actually really like too is that when she was first starting out she hired for her gaps and then it was hiring the best she could afford yeah and now she's in a position where she could hire the best in the world yeah but i love like those different like phases yes that's true you have to do start you have to start with what you can afford in your gaps and then you have to start and then move forward and so i'm in the transition stage yeah it was a lot to learn because i think that in the creator space you hear in the space how bad creators as bosses are and i'm like i don't want to do that of course i'm like really rigorous in my own ways i'm intense and vigorous and i tell my team i'm not nice yeah i tell my team i'm intense i'm really intense to set the tone and expectation of the bar you can have a high bar but to be toxic to take advantage of people i can't ever afford that which is why i wanted to spend so much time on foundations privately yeah what kind of culture we want to foster how do we do feedback and then just like looking at myself when i get too intense about my baby how do i show up am i proud of showing up at that meeting did i show my frustration and is that right or not right and how do i recalibrate how do i give feedback to myself and be like how do i stop this because it is such a personal thing it's not like tech company where it's less personal it's like whatever you have all this investor money you can just hire more or whatever this is you this is your face your brand your you are on the reddit pages you are front seat of all the hate comments so it's like you're like you're like you're like it's a very different type of business to lead and i had no good role models none there's none yeah every creator has had issues with their own team that they contract and hire out and everyone i meet hates the creators that they work with too right yeah it's really tough and maybe because you're from corporate so you like really know but i think normal creators don't know how to manage teams yeah manage people manage expectations that sounds so hard i think expectations is the hardest for sure but it's a hard labor force to work with no one's worked in corporate in the we are corporate coded then to speak that language and translate that i'm like i don't know where the gaps are so i have to figure out like how to communicate it it's tough all that's to say is yeah i didn't make as much money as i could have all things considered i'm doing fine yeah you're crushing but yeah when i see women make this kind of ful it makes me feel a type of way what does it make you feel it makes me feel damn why didn't i do that what was in my head what kept me from doing it i honestly feel good for them i definitely feel good for them yeah but i'm like wow that's life-changing that's a life-changing thing yeah i'm like wow that's life-changing that's a life-changing decision that changes everything i wouldn't mind seven million dollars i wouldn't mind that either i would do so much with it i like building i like doing i like philanthropy i like community it would be awesome i would love to be a big boss and make value out of that there is this very interesting threads post by mr paul scriven white woman titled how to get filthy rich by starting a cult like a white woman i'm ready for this and that's a crazy title so i think in summary you need five things number one a belief system number two a common enemy number three a charismatic leader number four built-in evangelism number five exclusivity so i'll start with number one the belief system this is like the i need to do this for myself i need to do this for my children i was lost for so long like that is the belief number two you need to label your common enemy that everyone is experiencing which is like burnout feeling lost in life society thinking you should stay home and watch children number three it'll be a charismatic leader so this is like how to you know your aura you're like on camera aura you have to have a good one and people who join the cult want to see you as an aspiration so you have to be that charismatic person number four is built-in evangelism which i think is more of a religious term and i'm not super religious so i don't quite understand it but essentially it's like preaching to tell you about like the good let me tell you about how i tell you about the good news of the lord yeah that's what it is oh i don't know i was just saying words okay and number five is exclusivity which is like the wait list open now closing soon one day left come on come in come in get in yeah so those are the five pieces of making a cult to get filthy rich like a white woman what are your feelings on this it was kind of crazy for me to see the outline but i was like whoa this is the secret sauce but i think what he addresses which is the elephant in the room is race it's very touchy subject he says if you're a black woman as an example in what way are you going to get a massive amount of people to relate to you on a level where they believe you're the one that can help them that's the part of that that gets unsaid in these conversations because we want to believe it's knowledge or skills and creating an amazing offer and it's not but it's just like understanding your playing field yeah so you can think about it like playing a game of tug-of-war white people just start off with a hell of a lot of people and they're like of more people on their side just by default, because that's a demographic. of the space that's just america for you and so it's naturally easier to engage and relate with someone who looks like you and shares the same experiences as you so when they start off they have more at the beginning that is what he wanted to address so if anyone wanted to copy that template you have to know that is another component that no one talks about but what i really like about what is threads post says is like you know he's not really blaming or attacking white people like none of like that he's not saying don't worry white people we're not coming for you it's just But I'm actually not. I feel very comfortable punching up. So I think if you punch up, you can't punch down. But keep going. Got it. Got it. He says that they're not doing this on purpose, that they're trying to be like culty. But this is just an analysis of what happened and how it can be perceived. And yeah. So I wanted to hear what your take is on race in the creator space and making money. I used to be obsessed with learning about cults and MLMs, probably because I did grow up seeped in religion. Like I was a church girl till 2020. And I do think that churches, when they're really effective and powerful, is that you take a lot of things from a cult handbook in order to create community and belonging. And I think that's what MLMs do so well. What's an MLM? Multi-level marketing scheme. Like a pyramid scheme? Yes. But the difference between a pyramid scheme and an MLM is that a pyramid, there actually isn't a product to transact off of. An MLM borrows from the same techniques as a pyramid scheme where most of the money comes from recruitment. But there is still a product. So if you think about like Murad, Mary Kay. Do you know any of these brands? I know Murad, the skincare company. Yeah. There's a lot of beauty brands when we were growing up that were mostly transacted through MLMs. And it's a lot of suburban white women who find each other and they're like, hey, you're a stay-at-home mom. Like if you want to provide for your family while your kid's asleep, like you would be great as a recruiter. You'd be such a good salesperson in this. You just have to buy a $400 kit. And then you go on, you Facebook message 500 other people, you buy this $400 kit and they teach you. They teach you how to sell. They teach you how to connect with other people. They teach you whatever. And then they like promise, you this like picture of wealth and freedom. So anyways, it makes sense for this too. Like I read that and I'm like, yeah, that makes sense how you do well. Okay. My thing about race, and I've made a video about this before. I think one of the reasons why white women do so well as influencers is because white women are really good about supporting and celebrating and buying from other white women in a way that other people aren't. And I feel like Asian people probably have the most privilege in this country compared to other people of color. Minority groups. Exactly. But even Asian people, we don't celebrate each other. And Asian people hate each other. We hate each other. No, we're competitive. Competitive as hell. So weird. Yeah. It's so weird. But also when there's such scarcity in opportunity, when you see one person of color representing you, you want them to be excellent. Like you want them to be without any fail. So when Arden Cho, I think about her a lot. When she came out with Partner Track, everyone bashed her. Everyone criticized her being like, that was the best Asian actor you could find. You couldn't have found a better Asian actor. Or when Simu Liu became the Asian Ken and Barbie, they were like, that was the best. Because there's such few representation, when there's one opportunity, you want them to be like the best. Yeah. Versus white people, there's so much opportunity for them that they could be like, oh, this is the relatable white person. This is the quirky white person. This is the hot white person. I'm going to buy from them. Damn. So that's why I feel like it's harder for people of color to like be as successful in that way. Like I think about like for every single people group and there's like some subcultures, like I feel like there's other cultural groups who are better at like celebrating within their own culture. And I feel like there's a lot of people who are Yeah, yeah, yeah. But for other groups, it's usually like, you better represent me well, if you're going to be the one that's at the top. Yeah. There's a lot of caveats, a lot of like side eyes and judgment and past like people. I think that's why I care about meeting people in real life. Because if people don't know me in real life, I know I will get judged because I hear how they judge other people that they haven't met. And once you finally meet them and have a relationship, then you understand, oh, they're coming from this intention and you get it. You get them their essence a lot better. That's why I go out a lot. There's a lot of infighting in the Asian space, especially in entertainment. Yeah. I had a friend in the entertainment space and she was at this dinner with another big OG entertainment creator that's Asian or another actor that's Asian. So they were sitting together for dinner with like producers, directors and like the younger cast of whatever they're working on. And I think the older ones were sitting together and the younger ones were sitting together. And she was like to the other older person, like, don't you think it's so awesome that we were able to be there and build like pave this path and make sure the younger generation gets to success faster than we did and we can help them out. And then he turned to her and he's an OG and the space and he was like, no, they should suffer the same way we did. We shouldn't help them. And he wasn't joking. He wasn't joking. Here's the thing also is that when you're of that generation, like if you're a boomer or a late millennial, unfortunately, that's part of their thinking too. So regardless of race? Yeah, I think so. Like I think of Sheryl Sandberg, lean in a little bit. It was like, lean in, but close the door behind you. She said that? No, she never said it. I'm just saying like, there's a generation of people, I like judge it, but I like don't fully fault it because it's like, you're just the product of your environment. Okay, so you're just angry. That was just the vibe that like, you could only be successful if like you got yours in. And unfortunately, I think that's what happens when there's scarcity. Even the Asian infighting, like of course, in small cases, I'm like, I roll my eyes at it. But I don't like to blame even the Asians because we are just fighting for scraps because someone else made us feel like there's fewer opportunity for us. Do you know what I mean? That's yeah, I mean, yeah, there's only one spot. Yeah. I mean, that's changing now. But like, I heard that it went back, it reverted back to the worst. I love that for us. Yeah, I heard that in the Hollywood space, there's like literally no projects right now. Even K-pop Demon Hunters got like so big. But amongst the whispers in the actor space, there's like nothing. There's literally nothing out there. I feel like you're actually really good at this about uplifting other Asian creators. Oh, I try. As long as they're not evil, I try. Yeah, yeah. And they're evil ones. When I myself am critical of another Asian person, I try to catch myself because I'm like, oh, I'm only being critical because I assume that that person has to be flawless in order to run it. But it's like, who cares? Everyone should be able to get everything. Every person can get something too. That's fine. Or not mediocre, but like, you know what I mean? Like mediocre white people get stuff all the time. It's like, we can, an Asian can be mediocre and still get their back too. Yeah. I'm pretty supportive every step of the way. I want my people to succeed and feel uplifted if they're good people with good intentions, with good work ethic. I think like if they get the opportunity, they'll do a great job. Yeah. So are you saying that my course just won't do well? Wait, when did I say your course isn't going to do well? You said that as an Asian, you have to be perfect. Now I'm scared, Jenny. No, no, no. That's not what I mean. I think in order to achieve the mainstream success. So I could not achieve Jesse Jean level. Okay. Even like close. No, I think you could do Jesse Jean. I'm talking about like an Alex Earl. Oh, right. That's what I mean. I don't consider Jesse Jean mainstream. I think you are a Jesse Jean. You are, I think you are bigger than a Jesse Jean. I mean, thank you. Thank you. Yeah. I think it's harder for an Asian person to reach the level of success like a Alex Earl because of that. I think that's changing. Like, I think we're seeing like more, more representation, which I think is cool. I think your course is going to be so successful, but can I tell you something? You need to market it in an accessible way. I will. I'll send it to you. Okay. And then you can tell me. I will be your litmus test for a relate, like if it's relatable to me. Yeah. If I'm three or one and too hard. I can do it. I just have been operating in a space of how to be top of industry, whatever, whatever. So yeah, I can do it. I'm doing it. I'm gonna do my best. I'm gonna do it. Your rich BFF actually is, I would say also mainstream. Yeah, she's mainstream. As much as I want to launch a digital product, under a course. And I think you should too, by the way. Yeah, I'm going to come out of the course. Mine will be like $20, yours will be like hundreds of dollars. No, you can't do $20. You got to do more than that. Like $47? Yeah. I'm going to put my best effort in. I'm not worried about the quality because I know I can perform and deliver a good product, but I can't help but feel like it's a grift. And I think it's just the reputation of the space and maybe how like America has seen it and they see the comments and it's like a very controversial space. How do you know when you've gone too far in the grift? And you know, just set the record. The definition of a grift is a swindle used to obtain money through deceit, cleverness, and fraud. So technically these are not real grifts by definition. If you're actually delivering the value, a grift would be like, I don't give you a product or like there's some sort of deceit going on. But I think that that is the rhetoric of today's messaging. Okay. So grift technically means someone's intention if they were meaning to deceive somebody, but we're using it more so in the sense of like, are you just doing it for money and you're taking advantage of people? I guess that's what it means in internet slang. Do you think Jessie Jean was a grift? I didn't see the course, but I would say that it was not something I expected that would do well. But I see a lot of comments that are quite positive about her course. So like the customer and the product match for the most part, it seems really good. I think the power of courses is similar to like buying like a workout plan. It's like when you spend your own money for it, it's accountability. Yeah. How do you know if I've gone too far? You have to like coach me on this. I don't think you have to worry about it, Chloe. I just think that you are always going to be on the other end of the spectrum. You never have to worry about being a grift. I think when something feels grifty or grift-coded is when A, it's preying on someone's insecurity or desperation. I don't love that. Or when they're over-promising, when they like have this like romanticized picture of like, if you buy this course, this is what your future could look like. I don't love that. Because yeah, it's preying on someone's desperation and you're asking them for their money. But I think that if you have real value and real content and you're like, you're going to spend this money. And if you like put in the work and do it, like you will see results. Like I don't think that's grifty. Okay. Good to know. Thank you. So we'll both come out with our products. This is accountability. Do you think it's the word? If I think about Masterclass or Udemy or like LinkedIn Learning, it's the same concept, but I would probably argue yours is going to be actually really. Or like a lecture at like a UCLA, USC. Yeah. It's just the idea of like an online course, that phrase that sounds grifty. I think it's just the people in the space that have kind of muddled it, have muddied the waters. And it's hard for educational creators like us to enter the space without a preconceived notion that it is going to be worse than what people are going to get. I just need to get over it. I'm going to do it. And I need to diversify for the business. And I just like. love creating educational content i've always loved it i also think you could see it as scale like you're doing what you love at scale yeah you can't offer one-on-one coaching right now i cannot for it so this is a really great way to offer it at scale it doesn't make sense for me to put it on youtube either yeah it's like its own format and i have to optimize it for whatever whatever yeah it's like just test it see it as a test yeah we'll do that hopefully make sure we don't depend on brand partnerships as much okay so we have the freedom to create really cool creative stuff because it's a lot of work as you know i'm excited for you thank you what are your content and money goals for the rest of 2026 so 2026 was interesting for me because this summer i feel like i just played and worked and i didn't really care a lot about my content and because i don't do this full-time i like the flexibility to being able to like ebb and flow i think there's something about fall and winter that feels like a new school year for me so i'm ready to get back in and kind of like lean into the space again so i was energized by creating cultivate energized by this podcast and so i just want to get back into the rhythm of creative stuff because it's a lot of work as you know i'm excited for you thank you thank you again and freaking out like what my brand is q4 q4 i'd love to hit 50k on instagram we love a goal we love a number yeah long term i think i do want to think about what hopefully i have opportunities to do more talking and listening i told you my friend and i we had a podcast deal earlier this year and we kind of paused for a little bit and figuring out whether we want to do it and she had a lot of life changes so we didn't like move forward on it but i do think like leaning into the podcast space probably like next year i think you would do so well i keep telling you this we've been doing this for so many years i would love to hear you in a long form setting i think i just know what i like and i don't like right now and i know i don't enjoy or have the time to do a lot of the back end as it relates to podcasting so like all of that like the craft of that i don't want to do a podcast until i have the opportunity to be able to just focus on the content yeah that makes a lot of sense i really hope you come out and launch do you have your name for that one yes we do i can't do it yeah i'm so pumped yeah we might pick it back up next year sounds good see you after 50k before we wrap up i want to thank you so much for joining us today and i hope you wrap up the episode we always do what we call a performance review oh my god yeah i know we do performance review segments like you're gonna give me a performance yes i'm gonna give you performance review i'm so ready don't hold back why you love this i love this i love getting feedback be tough on me oh i'm not giving you feedback you just have to pass my questions and then i was interested we can do that after though feedback yeah sure if you want like i'll give you anything i'll give you i'll give you my world okay jenny park okay obviously this performance review does not impact your job title your salary but it does impact your aura which is really important in 2026 right i'm ready all right it's cereal soup what is happening right now you worked at cheerios you should know by now cereal is not soup cereal is cereal is milk first or cereal first cereal first i'm not a psychopath would you rather be right or be promoted oh promoted 100 what's the point of being right if you're not gonna get promoted libras love being right interesting money or power oh okay this reminds me did you ever watch the cards yes i have in season one there's like this hilarious line that this guy says where he's like so-and-so is an idiot because he wants money more than power and only idiots want money more than power and i thought that was like so funny but i would choose money over power a hundred percent me too what am i gonna do with power if i don't have money also kevin i talked about this last night i was like what am i gonna do with power yeah i don't need power like what are we doing with it yeah money is power would you be down to make 1.2 million dollars but you'd have to sell a course and post about it publicly and on your linkedin am i guaranteed i'll make 1.2 million dollars if you don't have money you don't have to sell a course and post about it publicly do it and if you do like 10 to 20 videos yes if it's guaranteed i'll make 1.2 million dollars i will do so many things for that would you ever write a post starting with leaving my 500 000 tech job to start a dot dot dot if it could promote your next endeavor oh no i don't think i would if i do that that means i'm really desperate and my views are really low and that's why i'm doing that there will be signs yeah so people can throw stones at me would you rather ship something mid or not ship at all ship mid i believe in half-assing things i think that's important it doesn't matter if it's a one-time job it doesn't matter if it's a full-time job it doesn't matter if it's a full-time job it doesn't matter if it's a full-time job it doesn't matter if it's a full-time job it doesn't matter if it's a full-time job it doesn't matter if it's a full-time job it doesn't matter if it's a full-time job it doesn't matter if it's a full-time job it doesn't matter if it's and like it just kind of reads out like if you have good judgment or not yeah like so i kind of think don't ban it and it'll reveal itself like if you did it in a way that's in poor taste or you don't have the equity to do that then like your poor judgment showed and you should get fired i do believe that but like i also don't think a company should ban it because there might be some people who it's okay or there's some company cultures that would like promote that are you living in main character energy or are you in your npc era main character why would someone choose npc i'm an npc like what is that you want to be an npc no i am an npc why i don't really think about me as a main character yes you do i'm like a background character a lot i'm my baby's npc i guess when you're a main character you have this huge overcoming that you want to go on this journey and i just kind of wake up and get my stuff done i don't believe that that's what an npc is calling me i think an npc is someone who's kind of on autopilot and not believing that their life is something that they could enjoy and take advantage of so which is why i don't think you're npc i do enjoy my life yeah and take advantage of it yeah meetings before 9 a.m human rights violation or a personal problem a hundred percent human rights violation nobody should have meetings before 9 when do you wake up you wake up really early not really you go to sleep really early not really what i wake up probably around like 7 7 30 the fuck that's so early 7 30 yeah chloe the rest of the world is waking up at probably 6 in the morning when are you waking up 12 we need you to like leave the apartment and like go touch some grass what do you mean you're waking up at 12 that's why you think this podcast was so early for you a little early yeah wow and then when do you sleep two to five two to five in the morning okay so you kind of have like a bizarre sleep schedule it's not that bad okay out of 100 for a promotion what percentage is skill and what percentage is visibility 65 visibility 45 skill reasonable is gen z cooked or trainable in the workplace i think they're cooked do you think any pr is good pr even if it's bad pr yes for everybody else but me yes because you don't want to face the consequences a hundred percent what have you been humbled by recently before going to create cult to be on saturday my best friend facetimed me and i thought i looked pretty good like i got my did my makeup i did my hair i did my outfit and she was like oh my god jay you look so cute now you just have to do your eyelashes and your hair and you're good to go that's rough and i was like oh i'm ready but yeah let me just go put on my eyelashes and my hair no totally that's when you know she's your best friend yeah you found out that your underperforming work enemy is moonlighting to the moon and you're like oh my god i'm going to full-time tech jobs do you narc no i'd probably gossip about it to a few people all right you're gonna spread it privately i wouldn't spread it privately i would gossip about it to people who i trusted and wouldn't spread it i just don't think that's my role if it paid the same would you rather be a people manager or a super icy people manager you like people yeah i think i like creating impact i'm not a people manager right now but i was yeah i linkedin and at mills and last question who bullies you more brand sponsors the talent that you work with or the talent's teams talent's teams great job that was a great question thank you so much for having me thank you so much for coming on to office drama miss jenny park if people wanted to reach out to you what is the best place for them what do you my instagram is mohe m-o-h-a-e dot jenny park mohe means what's up in korean you can dm me or voice memo me and i'll send you a voice memo because i'm like bad at responding but i'll do like a voice memo when i'm in the car you don't respond to everyone who reaches out to you so what do people have to do to get your attention for you to respond because you're so busy give me a compliment maybe no i don't know if you ask me like a genuine question that's not like can i get a job referral if you ask me a question i try to respond to most of those oh wow you're pretty good at that then it might not be a long answer but like i'll send a voice memo yeah in the car yeah you're so nice you're so wonderful i don't respond to linkedin messages and okay so no linkedin no link don't message me on linkedin would you jenny park would love to come back on office drama someday in the future i would love to come back i'll do this with you i'll keep you with you anytime what topic you want to come back for when i make 1.2 million dollars after you launch your course and after you're posting on it publicly on linkedin as well yeah exactly damn that's when you'll know next time i'm back that's when you'll know there will be signs no i'm just kidding i'll come back whenever this is so fun jenny you're so great thank you so much for being on i was so tired today jenny brought all the energy i really appreciate it you're so good at talking and listening we'll see y'all next time bye drama llamas shout out to our drama llamas on the patreon thank you guys so much for watching and i'll see you next time bye drama llamas supporting i got my first check in the mail on how much we made on the pod thus far we made a thousand dollars yay so a long way to go before we break even so your support on patreon means a lot i've been posting these mini vlogs taking you behind the scenes of a day in the life preparing for our guests and how we work with them and how we take care of them before and after interviews as well as our personal shields bonus show so check those out in the last two weeks we came out with two very very different episodes one with shaneeja shana vasan where we questioned the relationship between human connection and ai deeply it was this intense philosophical and academic conversation on how technology is making us like kind of worse people but also then sat down with holly lee at pm at open ai on their launch of dots so yes very very different audiences came for these separate episodes it's kind of whiplashy so uh but i think it's fascinating i think the spectrum is very fascinating today with jenny this was more like the pace and style of what i wanted office drama to be it's us chatting with people in tech business and media about their modern careers and life plot twists and their own lives and their own lives and their own takes on what's happening in our real lives but do please forgive my low energy i was extremely overheated from create and cultivate over the weekend and that is not good for pregnant people like that was not well but i think jenny brought the energy and she covered so much ground in this episode i sincerely love hearing her talk it just feels so juicy exciting upbeat a little gossip be very lightweight but we got to talk about some wild and intense topics like how much money women have made this year through content how race and gender play a role in talking about money and how much invisible work there is in brand partnerships in the creator space when i was doing jomo our number one topic request was actually on money slash personal finances this was not a tactical episode on money it's more like a takes episode but i do have two episodes for q1 around how to negotiate and how to build wealth so stay tuned for those i can't believe i am so close to popping out the baby like oh my god i'm at a point where it's kind of hard for me to walk like i cannot get out of a chair or the floor easily by myself i also have horrible sleep i can't sleep at night because the baby is kicking my ribs like sometimes i cry in my sleep because it's so painful and yet there's still so much to do from my list of things to work on that i shared on social two weeks ago to recap that was number one solve matt lee which uh it's still really hard number two i gotta be nesting so i'm building up the nursery we got our nursing chair in yay number three planning my baby shower i got my venue booked i did my walkthrough and everything but um still gotta do everything else number four finishing sponsors oh my goodness this internally has been so much work but hope you enjoy and support the pieces that come out and lastly my big surprise project at this point i've not yet started on it and the timeline is looking a little dicey but you know what you know what i'm gonna do i'm just gonna rely on a miracle that i'm gonna enter flow state and make this happen you and i both it's q4 baby let's go this time is gonna pass by so fast we still got time in 2026 and with that i'll see you next time drama llamas bye