How Wild Were The Last Days Of Rome?

Hello, my lovely Patwixters. I've just jumped in here real quick to remind you that if you wanted to come and see Patwix the sheets live and in the flesh, you can do so in May. We have got two live events, one in Edinburgh, on the 23rd of May, and one in London Town, on the 25th of May. There will be guests, there will be games, there will be Smutty History, a plenty. Tickets are available now at feign.co.uk, that's F-A-N-E-.co.uk, and just search for Patwixters, and we will see you there. Hello, my lovely Patwixters, it's me, Kate Lister, and you are listening to Patwixtersheets, and we are going to get down and dirty with some historical smut, and because of that, I do have to tell you once again, that this is an adult podcast book of my adults, to other adults, about adulty things, and an adulty wake up going into adult subjects, and you speed adult too. We call out the fair do's warning, because if you keep listening, you happen to get upset. Well, that one's on you, pal, because fair do's we did warn you! Right, on with the show! Last the line, don't let my goblet run dry. If popular history is to be believed, the last days of Rome were a wild, orgy-filled, non-stop party of unbridled decadence and excess. Sounds like a leeds, weather spoons. But what was it really like? How did the Romans react when the invaders were closing in, with a really ripping the knickers off one another? Well, I can't wait to find out if you can't so let's do it. What do you look for, a man? Oh, money of course! You're supposed to rise when an adult speaks to you. I make perfect copies of whatever my boss needs, by just turning the knob and pushing the button. Yes, social courtesy does make a difference. Goodness, my parents look down! Goodness, there's nothing to do with it during. Hello, and welcome back to Bitwix the Sheets History of Sex Scandal in Society with me, Kate Lister. With history, it is so easy for myth to become fact. It just takes a few old duffers a couple of centuries ago to write some nonsense, and then it gets written up in the history books as exactly what happened. And this seems to be what happened when we think about the last days of Rome, the connotations that we have of that time of being debauched and immoral, has definitely become stuck in the public imagination, but where did that come from? Is there any truth behind it? I mean, I think I know how I'd react if the barbarians were closing in, but maybe the Romans were different, so how did it go down and how did Rome fall? Joining me today is the always marvellous Emma, Southern, and she is going to help us find out. But before we go all Roman decadence and decay, I do have to ask you, once more, if you wouldn't mind giving us a little cheeky vote, for the British podcaster wards Lister's Choice Award. We've managed to get through to the next round, we have, guys, and that is thanks to you. That's thanks to you and me lying about what dance no would do to us if we didn't win. But even with that, let's keep voting, let's keep doing it, we can do it, I'm sure that we can! Hello, and welcome back to the Twix the Sheets, it's only ever Southern, how are you doing? I'm very well, thank you very much, how are you today? Well, obviously, I'm very excited to be talking to you, because I always have a lot of fun when you're on the show, mostly learning, as if I don't know if the bar can go much lower for my estimate of the Romans. But every time I talk to you, it seems that something new is brought out of the bag, and it's like, yeah, they got worse! They actually managed to get worse, I don't know how that happened. That's my raison d'être these days, so that's just. Every time someone comes away from a conversation with me, ideally, they feel a bit worse about the Romans. I kind of do think about them every day now, but mostly just like, they were awful. They were horrible, yeah. My Roman Empire is how horrible the Roman Empire was. That's, yeah. Welcome to my world. It's just, just me pointing at things going, you know, that is slavery. Pedraste. There must have been one or two nice Romans somewhere that just never got a look in. Just someone who'd set up a little animal sanctuary without, like, having to sacrifice all the animals, or trying to shag all the animals, or trying to enslave all of the animals. Just someone somewhere that must have been somebody who was just a nice Roman. Maybe. I'm sure that there must have been. There must have been somebody who was like, have we ever thought of, like, look at this lovely puppy. But I'll be honest, the first two things I think of when I think of Romans and puppies is one guy who killed a puppy in a temple, and Pliny, the eldest, saying that you can cure epilepsy with a puppy brain. Stop it. They wreck everything. They do even a puppy, they somehow manage to ruin it. There's nice ones. There's some nice little, like, epitaphs for dogs, people writing little things that have as they like their dogs. So people who like their dogs are nice. That's like a universal constant, that's good to know. So appropriate today, we're talking about the fall of the Roman Empire, which is just, I guess, where the rest of the world just went, "Right, no, you've done too much now. Stop it." You are too awful. We have to put a stop to this. Yeah, you're too rich, you're too awful. What they mostly think, to be fair, is you're really rich, and it looks like you've got a good thing going on. Can we join in? And then that ends up being a bunch of wars, basically. Right. So we have this idea of the fall of the Roman Empire, and we'll get on to the last days of Roman, where this idea of it being a time of even worse debauchery and madness, who came up with that idea. But the idea that the Roman Empire fell is a slightly odd one, because Rome is still there. So what do we mean when we say there was a fall of the Roman Empire? Like what, at Tuesday, four o'clock, everyone just decided that, and that's enough of that. Thank you very much. What are we talking about here? So there is like a moment when people, like I think if you asked most people these days, like when is the end of the classical Roman Empire, then the moment, or I would always say, is when Oedica, who is a Ostrogothic King, has taken over Rome, and he basically takes the Western Roman Emperor, who is a child named Romulus Augustus, basically packs up all of his ceremonial gear and just sends him to Constantinople, is like, we're not having a Roman Emperor in the West anymore. So who was this guy then? The Goth King, which is just, I know that the joke's been done before, but it's just, you can't help envisioning these people as people wearing black holding skateboards and hanging around supermarkets, can you? Yeah, massive jeans. All ripped up the back. Yeah, yeah. So here's basically an Oedica, he takes over Rome kind of fairly bloodlessly. It takes a while to do it, and the Emperor by that time in the West is largely powerless and has no military anymore, and has been for a while, and so when he just moves in, he basically just packs up Romulus Augustus and is like, I'm in charge of Rome now, and sends him on his way. So this is a German Goth King, and he just walks into Rome that by this time is not as strong as it was and just picks up this little buy and goes, you're off on your holidays. Simplifying me monstrously, yeah, basically. Wow. It's pretty bloodless. I would have thought that would put up a better fight than that. I mean, this takes centuries to get through, so this is 476 that he packs up. Right. Romulus Augustus. 476. And so 410 is when the Goths first sack Rome. So the first big sack of Rome, which is considered like it's a cataclysmic event when it happens. That happens in 410. Did they see it coming? Or was it like a complete surprise to them? They do see it coming because they've been fighting the Goths. The Goths have come across the Danube, so they're actually from like the Caucasus. So these are people from what is now kind of Ukraine and southern Russia. And so they have come across the Danube running away from the Huns, who have come from even further east. And those centuries worth of fighting the Goths on the Danube, which means that they build them south into an army and then led by Alleric. They stop marching around Western Europe and nobody can stop them. And they take Rome in 410. What they basically want is some land to call their own. They just want to move into the empire essentially. And they want to be given a bit of land and set up. And that the Romans are living on that bit of land. Yeah, basically. Like there's already people there, but they would quite like to just have some of it. Fair enough. Yeah. And they constantly fall and eventually they become an enemy. And so they first proceed and then sack Rome in 410. And everybody kind of knows it's coming. No big D has any power to stop it. The Emperor at the time is Anorius, who is rubbish. And it is so drastic that they actually take the Emperor's sister hostage. And she's great. Galloprochidia, she's fascinating. So that is like the Cataclysmic event. It takes like another 60 years for the Ghost to have fully moved into Rome. So they come in and then they fuck off again. They do fuck off again. Yes, because they don't really want Rome at that point. They basically just want to live somewhere. They fuck off to France and then they go down to Spain. They hang around in Barcelona for ages on a holiday. Okay. Yeah. Then the vandals attack it a few years later. And then it's kind of it's a very long process of eroding away power in the race. So that by the time a Vatican moves in, everything has been eroded to a nub in of nothingness essentially. How did that happen? No, because one thing that I do know about the Romans is they were very good at fighting. Like they were the bestest at it. If they could do it as horrible as they were, they could channel the awfulness and they were very good at going round and beating up other people and taking their stuff. And we've got this idea of them being highly militarized and super organized. And they were the first to go, hey, let's use shields. What a great idea and this kind of stuff. So how do we go from that to just, oh, there's a bunch of German ghosts coming in. Oh, no. About a million different things. So one, we have the fact that they have started. They start quite early on by the kind of fourth century using it extensively. They're using auxiliary troops and mercenary troops a lot. So a lot of these gods and bandals and all the other people have served in the Roman army at some point. Oh, and quite a lot of what their argument is for being given land is that they have served in the Roman army for 20 years. They've served in the Roman army and then not getting any benefits from that. So that's one thing that's into. So they've learnt the tricks of the trade then. So we no longer have this like, oh, surprise, we're the best in the world. Now it's, well, they've been trained that way too. Yeah. And also they would quite like something in return for the service that they gave the empire. Ah ha. Okay, that's interesting. The other thing is that there are plagues rampaging through the empire. The plague Cyprian destroys millions of people. Was that a black death thing or was that something else? They think it's actually possibly an Ebola-like plague. So a nasty, a very nasty plague. And then the other thing is that the climate is changing. So the period of the Roman Empire corresponds to this kind of ideal period for harvests where the weather is very warm and very rainy. And so they have been having bounteous harvests for five hundred years. And now the weather is shifting is becoming drier and it's becoming colder. And they're having terrible droughts in North Africa and Egypt. And those places were feeding the armies in the West. And they are no longer growing anywhere near enough wheat to feed the armies. So you have a series of controllable and uncontrollable events that severely weaken Western power. It's like Viagra. This is how I'm going to compare this to. Like when Viagra first launched, it was the only one of its kind. It had patents on it, no one had ever seen anything like it before. It did stuff that nothing else can think of touch it. But eventually the patent runs out and everybody else can manufacture the exact same stuff. And they've got their own systems of distribution. And now there's lots of alternatives to Viagra. And they don't have the stranglehold anymore. Exactly. And that's what happens. And people are hungry. And when people are hungry, there's always unrest. That's not good. So there's lots of different things coming together to weaken what was the biggest and strongest empire at the time. Yeah. Why this goth king though, were they particularly good at fighting like why them? Why not, I was going to say why not the British because we were just pissed. But why was it then that decided they were going to do this? Well, actually the Romans considered the Britons to be a hotbed of revolution. And it was always very considered to be very dangerous to send anyone powerful to Britain because they would get to Britain, get their heads swollen. And then try to invade Gaul with their own and declare themselves an emperor having constantly. Oh, did it work. I'm quite proud of this for that. Well done. Well done ancient Britons. There was something about coming to Britain that made people think that they could rule the empire. It takes a lot of time. Like they appear in the middle of the third century crisis. So they appear in middle of third century who takes them about century and a half to eventually take over the Western Roman Empire. They're basically taught by the Romans to hate the Romans. Bad move that. Yeah. Bad move. And they're just very good at what they do. Like they are a spectator. One of my favorite stories about them actually is after the sack of Rome, they're then kind of going marching around Italy for a little bit because they don't really have a goal. I love that about them. Just chaotic, just mad chaos goblins wandering around just looking for a fight and just like. No, no, no, we'll go Barcelona now. Yeah. And so they. Allerick was the king at the time. He was their leader and he dies while they're in southern Italy. And they worry that if they bury him or have a tomb for him that the Romans will desecrate it. So they damn a river and divert it temporarily. Bury him under the river and then remove the dam. So he's buried underneath the river. That's clever. Oh, I like that, which I think is very impressive. That is impressive. Oh, I might put that on my funeral plan. So if anybody demands to have a river moved for you. That okay, I'm warming to him slightly, but then having said that I wasn't chased bear asked the streets of Rome by Allerick, which might change your perception of him quite severely. It might, although I will say that even the people who are really freaked out about the Goths sacking Rome and it really is considered to be like earth shattering. You have all of these writers write about it because you start getting loads of refugees from Rome and they end up in North Africa and they cross the seas and enter the Levant and they are coming with these kind of stories. But Allerick does quite like Rome and so they don't damage it. They don't damage anything very respectful barbarians. They are very respectful barbarians and so they really do very little and so they're able to have within 30 years they're effectively rebelled Rome completely like fixed up all of the minor burnings that they did. And by the 450s when Gallipagodiot has become Empress, like Rome is back to glory essentially. I'll be back with Emma after this short break. In a world where swords were sharp. And hygiene was actually probably better than you think it is. Two fearless historians. Me, Matt Lewis. And me, Dr. Eleanor Yamaga, dive headfirst into the mud, blood and very strange customs of the Middle Ages. So for plagues, crusades and Viking raids and plenty of other things that don't rhyme. Subscribe to Gone Medieval from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts. So they've got this initial second, everybody loses their mind. It sounds like the Goths wandered in. Oh, nice, nice statues, everyone. Oh, no, it's lovely. They're almost as tourists and then they go away again. They're kind of like, oh, well, we're in now and we didn't really have a plan. And we're going to take some stuff, but we're on the move. So it's not like they've got a place to take all the stuff back to. So they can't steal all statues because what are they going to do? Drag it around. Yeah, very good point. Very good. Like they're basically a nomadic army at this time. They haven't got a place to take. Yes, that would limit what you were going to take away its mobility. But then we've got this big push for 76. Yeah. So and this is like a lot of because you've also got the vandals who are in North Africa. And so then it becomes like a kind of constant battle of eroding taking part shots. Yeah, basically of people coming from all sides because there's you've got the Goths who are kind of all over the show. You've got the Franks who are coming from Germany into kind of France and Belgium and go all. You have the vandals who are coming from North Africa. And so on every side there are people who are sometimes working together, sometimes not sometimes fighting each other. And the Romans are just kind of fighting fires on all sides and then constantly fighting each other as well. And so you run through like dozens of emperors of the West who all have ludicrous names and who no one's ever heard of. And they just become less and less relevant in the fights like it becomes that there is there are lots and lots of people competing for territory in Europe and North Africa. And the Romans just become one of those guys rather than the people that the guy exactly. And so it just kind of they become less and less important in the fight until they're not important at all. The only money that they have is none of the resources or money or anything they have is coming from Europe. It's also coming from overseas from literally overseas. So it all has to travel into Rome and people just stop sending it like they're people in Constantinople, the Western, the Eastern emperors just stop sending resources eventually. It must have been a very stressful time. It's always a stressful time to be a Roman but a particularly stressful time bearing in mind actually that this is nothing worse than the crap that they've inflicted on other nations throughout their time as the top dog. If anything they don't suffer anywhere near as much and it's surprising how much when you read the sources about what's happening in Rome and Ravenna which has become like a real power that they seem to be having quite a chill time if you're not in your home. It's a few like you regular Roman because I suppose one of the reasons that I assume that all the Romans are absolutely horrific is because most of the history that you get left from is from very powerful people. People that were interesting enough to have written about them was that happened and I don't think you get nice powerful people. I think that to be powerful like that you have to be an asshole. I think that's sort of baked into it, isn't it? So it's kind of their history but if you were just like a regular Roman person you know you've got a bit of land maybe you're growing some grapes or something. How much of this would you have been aware of? You are going to be aware of it in that if you're a rich Roman you've got far away lands and some of them are being damaged. But they remain rich, they remain pretty powerful. What happens is if you're rich and powerful Roman as the Senate stops being useful the Senate becomes something that only people from the city of Rome go to it used to be something that people will come from all over the empire to go to. But it becomes kind of a bit more provincial and it becomes kind of a last bastion of paganism as everything else Christianises around it. But the rest of the rest and empires kind of shift into the church and starts building up the church as power. And so you see people from the fifth century who are writing they are all all start writing about church stuff basically instead of going to the Senate. They're still rich, they've still got lots of land, they will complain about barbarians in there. There's these letters from fifth century goal from a guy called Sidonious writing about how he. I mean this is such a like a daily male thing. He's like I when I'm walking around in town I hear all these different languages and no one speaks proper Latin anywhere I hear all these barbarian languages. So you get the like those complaints and there's it you get people talking about how they can't travel as much as they would like to anymore but they don't become any less rich and on a day to day basis it doesn't change as much as you would think. There's this I could Olympia Doris who writes about how astonishingly rich Rome still is in his time and he's writing from the east in the fifth century and he's like every great house has a city insider he's like they've all got their own bars they've all got their own stadia they're all like they have so much money which comes in from their land and then he is like they have games that go on for 10 days and they spend 4,000 pounds of gold on it. And so there still are people having a good time in Rome while you know most of the fighting apart from at one or two points and it's happening far away and people find ways to enjoy their lives anyway. Of course they do so when the guests finally show up then do they move into room and like what exactly it's just all of their outlying lands that they've conquered they're not left to have many more like you just allowed the Italian bit like what are we talking about? What are we talking about here did they stay this time the gods they do stay and they stay for ages and they become like the next king after radicals the other is a great. Who does a lot in Roman does a lot of building and he's like quite classicizing so he likes the idea of like rebuilding stuff in the image of Rome and he has all these advisers who were Roman senators like Cassia Doris so very civilized this it's just like it's like just an exchange of power that's going on this is this isn't quite the burn it to the ground and let's murder everybody that I was expecting this is that happens a bit earlier. Is more administrative than anything else it kind of is because basically a radical literally sends Romulus Augustus off with a letter that says like we're not going to be in the empire anymore will be a client like we don't mind working with you. But we're not going to be like subordinate to you we're not going to be in your empire the east like okay and then that's basically what happens and you have we have these letters of Cassia Doris which go back and forth where he's writing to the east nempers saying like are the other X as X was. And they you know they are exchanging diplomacy back and forwards and then it's not there's one attempt in the sixth century to kind of retake Rome which retakes Ravenna but other than that it's fairly. So if I civilized it kind of a bit of a whimper at the very end isn't it's it's just more like like we've just voted in a new board of governors that's sort of the. The feel of it's not quite what I was expecting at the end of this really bonkers time and this really powerful empire. So it kind of keeps going does it because you've got like the Roman Empire the Byzantine Empire that's still how long does that hang on for. Oh it depends on how annoying you want to be okay go on let's arm everyone with some pedantic information they can use to correct people around them. Yeah if you want to be really annoying you could say that the end of the Holy Roman Empire. Be really like more reasonably you would say it is the Ottoman sack of Constantinople in the 1450s and so 1453 like that's the end of continuous rule from Constantine through to the the final like Eastern Roman Emperor and it is a center of power and then the the Ottomans destroy it. If you want to be difficult you can say the Ottoman Empire is a continuation and go all the way through until the end of the Ottoman Empire which is like 1920s. Wow wow but yeah it depends on how much of a dick you want to be a thing is it's difficult to say like when does an empire end like there are points in the Byzantine Empire is Constantinople in two fields and so calling it an empire is a bit of a stretch but there are people calling themselves Roman until the end of the Holy Roman Empire. There are people throughout the middle ages calling themselves Roman emperors. I don't know how Germanic Italy is as a result of this so they must have left again at some point and just kind of left the Italians to get on with it. Well they don't really impose anything other than Aryanism, Austro-Gotsar Aryans so they are not Trinitarians they believe in just to bring some theology into this as well. They don't believe in the Trinity so they don't believe in the father's son the Holy Spirit as a single they believe in separate but that's like the only thing that they really introduce is massively different. Otherwise they run it and they don't have a standard anymore because they have a king but they like you know they like the Roman stuff they have quite a lot of laws that are like we will really like it if you built temples that looks like Roman temples actually. So where did the idea come from because I've heard the expression or it was like the last days of Rome it was like the final days of Roman you say that when you mean something is just absolutely chaotic and it's got a kind of a tinge of like back and alien orgies to it like you know with something's really excessive. I've heard it say many many times but actually if you're saying it's like the last days of Rome really mean there's the administrative exchange of power that's exactly that's actually what happens. Yeah but where did the idea that like it was this hedonistic people were ripping the knickers off each other where does that idea come from. So that idea really comes from like the 19th century. I thought it would I thought this sounds like something they would come up with. Yeah and these ideas that there is that there had to be a moral failing for Rome to have fallen. Now that's quite important because I've seen that be repeated even today in certain quarters in certain circles and certain philosopher people have this idea that a fall of an empire or a country is predicated by a looseness of moral. Yeah and you know people very much still say this today and it is this this idea that blow jobs equal a loss of power exactly hashtag science. I was googling around to see if I could find like when the concept of the last days of Rome was like first used and I found a blog from 2011 where somebody some random blogger had said that it was the last days of Rome because a woman had said fuck on the television. Which I thought was hilarious but women didn't used to swear and that's very much like I mean this is something that to an extent the Romans are saying about themselves that if they were better than the gods would love them more and they wouldn't lose their empire and then the Christians say this as well and you see a lot of Christian writers in the 5th century saying the barbarians wouldn't be here if we were better Christians and then this continues through and then when in the Enlightenment. When in the Enlightenment when people start thinking about the you know why Rome quite unquite fell or why this empire didn't continue forever what they look at is texts from all areas of Roman history. So they will pick up on Caligula who is like the third Roman Empire and near the 5th Roman Emperor and then they'll pick some bits from juvenile who's like 100 years after that but all from like the first and second centuries say 300 years before Rome falls. And be like look at these guys obviously they can have an empire like they were shagging constantly they are talking about all women that they have sex and they are like having mad orgies. You read Marshall who's writing in the second century and they are disgusting like he is to his absolute filth and he does make his social circle sound like they've never got any clothes on at all. And then in the like 1830s you start getting like French and English philosophers who are who say start saying this stuff like oh it fell because it was decadent. It's this strange equation. I'm really what's going on in my humble opinion. I haven't researched as much as I think I probably showed them before I say this is what they're doing is they're linking it to a feminization of something you kind of see that and that goes right the way back to even the ancient Greek writers where you get this sort of. Odysseus that goes on the island and he gets distracted by the beautiful by girls and you get that kind of motif are cropping and it happens with a neus and and dido like they get stuck there on this big manly quest of they're going to do questing and manly worst of suddenly some chick turns up on an island that is all like oh be just come here and just that have some wine and I'll rub your shoulders. And it's this whole bit like fear that they're going to be infected by this feminine world and lose their masculine potency. Yeah, and this is something that Romans worried about constantly like Romans themselves and this is how 19th century writers are able to have so much kind of ammunition for this idea of thicknesses of the Romans were saying it about themselves they were saying at the very height of their empire like in the late republic and the early imperial period. And then into the you know the period of trade in and Hadrian when it's a its biggest and it's the most military successful it's ever been they're saying we like baths too much and don't be too much perfume and it's all everyone's got a bit Greek and girly and no one is a good masculine man like they used to be anymore and we've all become terribly soft and you're like well you're doing pretty well for a bunch of soft lads. Yeah, he's still pretty stabby for a bunch of stuff exactly but they are like everybody always thinks that their period is the worst it's ever been. Yeah, true and they always think but weirdly enough that like you know the time when it is the worst it's ever been people are trying to find new ways forward. But at every point in Roman history they're always saying this is the worst it's ever been and it's this way because we've gone soft. And then the Victorians picked up on that idea and really ran with it and sort of created this idea that it was this increasing horrendous feminization in moral laxity and just looseness and everyone's lounging around in sandwiches. That's what caused the fall of the Roman Empire. That's what caused it because they went too soft and then you get the racist arguments as well because you get Eastern emperors so people like September is Severus who is Libyan people like Philip the Arab and there are these articles from the 20s and 30s that are just horrific. But scholars were writing articles about how there were too many foreign names like they went through the pygrifian looked at names from the third and fourth centuries like there are too many foreign names and that's why they were. Hashtag science. They're like hashtag. Oh dear. Hashtag 1930s science. Yeah. Well I mean that was peak eugenics wasn't it that was and then you know and look where we ended up with that crap. And back with Emma after this short break. Me, Matt Lewis. And me, Dr. Eleanor Yamaga. I've had first into the mud, blood and very strange customs of the Middle Ages. So for plagues, crusades and Viking raids and plenty of other things that don't rhyme subscribe to Gone Medieval from History Hit wherever you get your podcasts. The Victorians had an extra special reason to be concerned about this and projecting a lot of stuff onto the Roman Empire. Because they had an empire all of their very own which they also got by being asked holes. Yeah. And they then immediately began to fear that they might lose it by not being as strong as their grandads were. And imagining their grandads to be the hardiest men who ever hardied and their grandmothers to be the most pure and wonderful women. And then they look around at the women and men in their lives and they're like that man's trousers are terribly tight. We're going to lose Constantinople. This must be the end of days. And no empire is ever in a state of chill. Yeah, it's never in a state of chill. It has to be constantly reasserting itself and that there is never a point in the Roman Empire. There is never a point in history of any empire where everybody was like, God, I'm so glad that I'm in this empire. And where there were people trying to leave it. But every imperial power always thinks that if only they could just simply do this one guy or if they could only just be perfect or something. Yeah, everything would be for if only they could understand that this is best. I mean, there were times I had a very odd attitude towards the Romans area because when they discovered Pompeii, they were genuinely quite upset to find as many cox as they did. That really freaked them out. So you sort of got this weird juxtaposition of that they're projecting a lot of like, oh, well, they lost their empire because they were too morally loose and sexy. But then also at the same time they really revere them and get very upset when they realize that they quite like looking at a lot of sexy stuff. The British Victorian relationship with the Roman Empire is so confused. Very confused. The fact that Victoria builds this statue of Budica and then has this statue be proclaimed that Budica was so great that she managed to defeat the Romans and then also become the Romans. They simultaneously love and hate them and they want to be them but be better than them. And there is this kind of general belief that the Romans lost their empire because they were decadent and we can keep as forever and ever if we don't go down that bridge. If we can just stay morally pure then we'll be able to hold on to as forever. I will defeat those as it turns out the Romans kept theirs for much longer because it has absolutely nothing to do with morality. No, no, we should say that as well that it really if you hear somebody saying, oh, you know, all empires before they collapsed were in a state of moral and sexual excess just hit them with something. You don't even need to talk to them, just find a book and hit them with it. Just hit them with anything, yeah, anything, just throw fists. It's just it's it's it's it's like it's the thing. It's the thin end of a wedge to women wreck everything. That's what that argument is. There's a direct fight against women and foreigners and blowjob spoil everything. Everything and you that there is some kind of universal standard of pure masculinity, which you can apply that can be infected. I wish can be infected and diluted. Yeah. And it is is very European thinking and it's draft because they only ever are thinking about European empires and ever thinking about South American empires or Asian empires or North African. And as you rightly point out the Romans have been absolute dirt bugs the entire time that they were there. It didn't get worse. Did it just before they left is like their levels of debauchery were fairly consistent. The Romans founded their city by one brother killing another brother and then the murderer brother stealing 100 women from nearby towns. Like tricking all of his neighbors to come to a party and then stealing their daughters. They've never behaved themselves. How Rome is founded like that is their glorious myth. It is not great from the start. Do you think that it would be because you know I don't I don't want to defend the Victorians and certainly don't want to give many ammunition or anyone thinks that their ideas are good. But was there anything in their understanding of the Romans mean were they a group of people that constantly had orgies we still like to think of them like that the like the Romans could barely walk from one end of the street to the other without being invited to an orgy. I mean if the poetry is anything to go by and the art then they were certainly having plenty of sex and surprisingly public sex like it is impossible to read martial without even you know being fairly like open to various kinds of sexuality and not be like Jesus Christ. Yes steady steady on like steady on lads and you're reading this a dinner parties are you. You'd phone the police you were just going around to have tea we are made and they put porn upon the telly that's the sort of basically that's how it feels yeah. And then all of a sudden he's going to be just giving you a six line poem about how that girl over there's a lesbian is very funny indeed with like graphic descriptions of her sense life. And all like there's this list he has of poems that you can write on gift tags for presents at satan alia and like one of them is just a man for sex and another one is a penis made out of flour. We've all known a martial haven't way that just you know you just ignore him the best that you can and try not to. Except the women for like God you're brilliant and we're going to make you incredibly rich because we love your poem so much. They are consistently rude but it's interesting you know that we've spoken about Roman sex before many many times but it's not that it was a complete free for all they had their hang ups. They were just different hang ups to the ones we have today they are and they are free about some things and not free about other things. And also the people that we are talking about are always like the richest of the rich. Yeah the people that can get away with this. Yeah they're not the middle class it's not lower classes they are the you know the money to leisure classes basically whose job is writing poetry or just being very rich or being the wife of a senator like they are not people who have jobs to go to. But one thing we can say with some confidence is that the fall of the Roman Empire was not caused by people having too much sex. It was not caused by too much sex it was caused by a play climate change and shifting borders. Which is decidedly less exciting. It's less thrilling it's less fun to bring up in the part that we are. Oh Emma you have been wonderful once again thank you so much if people want to know more about you and your work where can they find you. They can find me at MSL.com or they can find me at historyasexi.com and listen to my podcast with Janina Martison. Amazing thank you so much will you come back again anytime. Thank you for listening and thank you so much to Emma for joining us once again. And if you have got an idea for a subject or maybe you just wanted to say hello then you can email us at [email protected]. Coming up we have got episodes on the real Virgin Mary and an episode on the vanity of Henry VIII. No less it's quite a long episode. This podcast was edited by Tom DeLarge and produced by Stuart Beckwith. The senior producer was Charlotte Long. Join me again betwixt the sheet for this tree of sex scandal in society a podcast by history hit. This podcast contains music from Epidemic Sound.