How We Got There: Sienna Quirk, Head of Marketing at Thread and general Salesforce ISV expert

Welcome to how we got there. I'm your host Mike Davis. I interview thought leaders and founders in the Salesforce ecosystem to help ISPs learn new things to try and mistakes to a boy. This episode of How We Got There is brought to you by ISV accelerators. The fractional alliances leadership company built specifically to help high potential ISV partners navigate the Salesforce ecosystem. ISV accelerators is your inside guide to co-selling with Salesforce. From activating the right reps to accelerating real pipeline, uncovering new revenue, and of course, closing more deals together. Founded by a former Salesforce partner strategy leader with more than a decade of experience on both sides of the ecosystem, ISV accelerators deliver senior Salesforce native guidance for partners who are looking to get more out of their partnership and test if a full time hire makes sense. Trusted by high potential partners like Vigians, Farato, and Goldfinch, see what your Salesforce partnership could really do. Booktime at ISV accelerators.com to learn more. I'm here with one of my favorite people in the ecosystem, Sienna Quirk, long overdue podcast guest. Sienna, welcome to the pod. Oh my gosh, longtime listener first time caller. Attendee of said webinar. Awesome to be here. Thanks Mike for having me. So tell the listeners a little bit about how you found your way into the Salesforce ecosystem. Sure. A recruiter reached out about Konga. So at the time, I was working at a data center company and we had Salesforce as a product, but that was the extent really of my knowledge. So I learned real fast on the job at Konga with you. How interesting and unique the ecosystem was and have kind of been there ever since. Nice. And yeah, we work together at Konga and then GTM guides rep in the old school gear in honor of it for folks that are watching and not just listening. And then advisory after the acquisition, I would guess you've probably touched, I don't know, 30 40 50 ISV apps over Salesforce apps over your career. Like what did you learn? So much. I think one of the biggest takeaways, is that no matter how unique your Salesforce app is, everyone wants their own special unicorn of an app that's why you built it, the challenges are usually the same. So it's how do you create clearly your position as a solution alongside Salesforce? So not just taking your website point of view and repeating that value proposition, but how do you really differentiate your message, your positioning, your point of view and the lens of Salesforce? So how are you different than your competitors, but on the app exchange? How do you differ from Salesforce out of the box? And how do you sell your value to prospects as well as thinking about that ecosystem partnership play as well? So how do you sell yourself to Salesforce sales reps or ISC managers? How do you sell yourself to SSIs? It's really, I think for so many of the ISPs that we worked with, it's getting them to rethink their value proposition outside of just what it is for customers, but really what it is in the lens of that whole ecosystem play. Yeah, and for folks that don't know, Sienna, she's really everything marketing, so VPCMO level person, but you've also done a ton in terms of product marketing, partner marketing, and get real tactical on both of those. I guess a lot of founders describe what product marketing is because I've never knew what that word was, I think before I worked with you, but I've really become a fan of its importance overall. So glad to hear that, you know, that's such my sweet spot. So I think most marketers end up in a certain category. So you are a demand gen person, you are a partnership person. My upbringing was in product marketing. So really, how do you take the features and functions of the solution and really drill into what the value is for the market? So that's everything from helping identify who a company's ICP is or ideal customer profile to understanding how your product springs value to an industry or a specific use case. And so having that background of product marketing means that you're super in tight with the product team, you know what's going on with the road maps, you know what's going on around why the company is what it is, why they've built what they've built, who they've built it floor, the challenge that they've seen in the market, and you get the really unique and fun job of taking that and translating it into having that show up as value statements, just kind of simplify. How does that show up as your category? How does that show up as your brand in the marketplace? So it's really that bridge, I think, between what's being built and what demand gen is pushing out from a sales perspective. So it's always been a unique role where there's usually not maybe a pipeline goal associated with it, but it plays such a critical role in getting those revenue driving factors. So getting a sales team enabled, getting a marketing team on the same page with a messaging like cook bulk, if you will. And so it's been a ton of fun to work with these ISVs and the sales force ecosystem, but then also just some of these startups and really help them hone in on not just what they built, but why they built it and for who and what the really differentiated narrative is that can make them stand out in crowded marketplaces, whether that be the Salesforce ecosystem, crowded marketplace, or just the crowded marketplace of B2B apps in general. It's becoming so much more important now, anyone can build an app, anyone can build an agent. So how do you stand out? It's really that product marketing, I think, focus that brings a differentiated message that is key. Yeah. Well, one of my first, well, my first memory of working with you was after at Congo, we acquired three companies and then we were heading out to a sales force event where Salesforce acquired Steelbrick, a later Salesforce CPU or revenue cloud or whatever they're calling it now. That was kind of like cooperative and competitive and like we were our task there was to like figure out our better together story while at that event. And events are just such a great way to workshop and try to like, suss out like what a message resonates with because you get to see people's faces in real time and you're like, oh, that doesn't work, I'm not going to do that again. Exactly. I think it's one of the most underrated pieces of marketing maybe is that product marketing aspect because you can send your team to an event. And if they have that product marketing background, they can have those elevator pitches ready, they can maybe have a few elevator pitches ready to go. And to your point, they can see in real time, where do people lean in, where do people zone out? Does your one liner, your header, if you will, that you put on a booth, do the people walking by in that 10 seconds? Do they understand what you do? Are they confused? You get all of that seen back in real time. And it's not something you're going to get on a Zoom call. It's not something you're going to get over email. It's just such a unique experience to just play around with your pitch and see what lands. Well, and talking about pitch and you're better together story, you created something that we referred to as the messaging exercise at GTM guides. I think it was the most important and impactful deliverable that we worked on. And I'll just set the stage, but I'm curious like what your experience was running through it. But essentially it was a live workshop where we had a like a white board, a virtual white board, because it was COVID times. And we would help the Salesforce ISB understand the problems they solved to they solved it for what Salesforce did or didn't do that was in the space, how they made it better alongside of certain Salesforce products and a number of other elements. But I was always impressed with the engagement that we would get from it and then like the light bulbs that would go off during it. So I guess, like, how'd you come up with it? What was your kind of, like, armchair or rocking chair takeaways from running that so many times? - Yeah, they were so fun. It was one of my favorite parts of the work we did with ISDs and it was great because it was usually fairly early on in the engagement and so it was a good way to set the stage and to learn a lot about the, you know, our customers right off the bat. And it came from, again, that product marketing background. So early in my career, I realized that if you ask a product person, so maybe a PM, maybe a CTO, maybe an engineer, if you ask them, so what'd you build or why'd we build it? Or what's coming in the latest release? They may get really in the weeds on one specific piece. Maybe it's what they worked on. Maybe it's what they think is the most exciting part. And so just giving people this open ended to tell me about X, led to suboptimal results for what I selfishly needed and wanted. So I'd started an interview process, which was a really good way to get a product team kind of out of their own heads and out of the, you know, the path they've been working on and selfishly get the answers that I needed. So what I did was really just adjust that for our, you know, biases we were consulting with, similar story. If you just say, what did you build and why did you build it? And who do you sell to? You're going to get a person's point of view and maybe not the full story that you need to create something meaningful. So we would bring in as many people as we're willing to be there. So sometimes we had two people on the call. Sometimes we had 10 people on the call and just started by asking some really basic questions around who they sell to, what industries, what are the use cases, who are the personas? Starting simple, which I think you remember, we would get some kind of annoyed looks, maybe, of like, why are we talking about things that are so basic? Yeah. Did you look at our website? But what it did was get people to really challenge each other. You'd be surprised how many times you'd get a people in the room and there would be disagreement on what industries they sold to or what were their key use cases. And then, of course, as the exercise went on, we got a little more specific into the areas that I think a lot of ISB's overlook, which was not just what is the information you need to know to sell to your main ICP, but again, what do you bring to a Salesforce customer specifically that Salesforce themselves can't do? And so what are you doing to maybe enhance the customer Salesforce investment? And how do you help a Salesforce rep get more share of wallet or open-new use cases for them? I think the question I always loved challenging ISB's on was how are you different than Salesforce out of the box? So Salesforce has either through their own means of building or through acquisition has taken on a lot of scope as far as the work that Salesforce can do. However, there's this entire ecosystem of thousands of apps that live on the app exchange that are some sort of add-on or enhancement to Salesforce. And so getting ISB's to really concentrate on what it is that you do that is different than Salesforce out of the box really forced a team to look at their product through the lens of a prospect or through the lens of a Salesforce rep who needs to know why they can't just use what they already have. Why would they pay extra money for, let's say in the Congo example, a Dock Jen solution? When we were there as mostly Dock Jen, now CLM, but Salesforce out of the box would tell you that they create quotes as well. So how do you really differentiate yourself from what Salesforce has out of the box and what someone could use without any additional investment? Versus why they should spend extra money or why they should suggest your solution to fill some sort of white space. - Yeah, and I'm glad you pointed that out because one of the areas that I think was most impactful is when you ask, it's kind of like when you ask somebody like why three times you get to the real answer and I think like how do you make, how are you different than Salesforce out of the box? I think you have to go a couple layers deeper. So if you haven't thought of that as a listener, hit pause right now, reflect on that, write it down and then we'll continue this conversation with you, but it has to be so much better. Like if Salesforce is good enough out of the box, like they don't, especially in the enterprise, they don't want to onboard another vendor 'cause procurement sucks. They don't want to take the risk of, especially if you're a startup, like you're getting your security review questionnaire and all this stuff, like the threshold especially as you go to an enterprise of like how much pain you have to actually solve, like it's bigger and bigger. And so if you cannot articulate in a detailed fashion, like why you're better than Salesforce out of the box, like they're gonna try Salesforce first and that was another learning. Like a lot of times you have to like be like, hey, if you feel in this problem, this problem, this problem with Salesforce, then think about the size being. Yeah, and you have to be careful though, because again, as I kind of talked about, you're not just selling to customer or prospects that happens to have Salesforce. Ideally, you have a whole co-marketing, co-sale strategy with the Salesforce sellers themselves. And so for them, you have to be super careful of, I'm not competitive, I'm a collaborator and I can help you win deals faster or more. I can help you with retention. You have to be really specific about the message that you're telling the Salesforce seller as well, because they've got a whole portfolio that they would much rather sell other than you. But they do care about competitors, an SAP or a service now. They do care about extending into other use cases. They know that there are some gaps that Salesforce can't fill on their own, that's why this whole ecosystem exists. But they're not really incentivized from a dollar perspective to work with ISVs, so you really have to make the case. And I think it's one of the biggest, maybe areas of opportunity for ISVs is to not only think about that end user, ICP, but really create a whole selling strategy around Salesforce as its own ICP. So the way that you sell to Salesforce, ISV managers, sellers, industry leads, cloud leads, they, you could create an entire go-to-market plan just for those individuals. But the joint value props can be a little different, the competitive differentiators are gonna be a little different. You're gonna have to tell those Salesforce, how you're different than Salesforce out of the box and different than other competitors, maybe they'd find on the app exchange. And so I think the more that ISVs think about that world of how are you different than Salesforce out of box, but also in that same lens, how do you engage with the Salesforce sellers and think of them as their own independent ICP? - Well, and it's just layers of the onion because like everybody talks about ICP, it's kind of like, I don't know, I feel like it's a throwaway word in a lot of the use cases and people are like, oh, what's your ICP, what's your ICP? But it's like within the Salesforce ecosystem, you have to have different ICPs based on company size, based on geography, based on industry. And so like the way that a top tier besting class ISV is going to have these mature messaging exercises completed for these different industry verticals and different size at customer SMBs gonna be different than enterprise. And just the amount of work and the amount of accuracy and is a man's for people who really wanna do it at a world class level. - Absolutely, it's one of the reasons I think having somebody with product marketing background can make really great partnership. Marketing individuals is because they will think through those building blocks around building a narrative. And so once you've done that messaging exercise that we kind of were talking about, you could, to your point, take that same type of exercise and apply it to industries, apply it to different Salesforce clouds and create these different plays that can really filter through to not only marketing and the demand gen engine, but to sales and how do you give them the strategies and the plays that are really specific to the type of prospect that they will run into? - Well, that's great. Let's transition a little bit. What's one going to market strategy that was under-invested in early days for you that worked and that every ISV should at least look at? - I don't think enough companies use product releases or product marketing motion as a demand gen opportunity. A solid go-to-market strategy for your release, whether that be your quarterly release, whether that be a new product, release, it can be a super big opportunity to re-engage with current customers, to reach out to prospects and showcase your product roadmap and show them your innovation. It can signal to the market that you are invested in your solution and that you're differentiated from competitors. And I think too many companies consider that release motion just either an afterthought or something that product just has to do, something you just want to share with customers via some release notes or maybe a webinar. But it really can be a Demangian engine. And I think if more companies really focus on the way to take that product release and broaden the audience, it's a really cool Demangian opportunity that can be run through product and product marketing. If you have that in your organization, to showcase so much of what I think customers come up against or I have these come up against, which is that build by a partner story. If you can continue to show innovation via a really strategic release conversation, you're going to start to put out in people's heads who think that they can build something themselves or that Salesforce out of the box is good enough. Because you're showing these cadences and this really drum beat of innovation that you're doing something different and that you're invested in growing. I think this will become even more important now that almost anyone can vibe code their own apps, their own agents. I think you're going to see a lot more companies try to build a cool solution that they thought they maybe were going to buy. And so that storyline of here's how we continue to. It's not just we built it once and we get you bought it and we gave it to you, but this continued drum beat of innovation that internally your team's probably not going to cover. And if it's niche, it's probably not something Salesforce at the box is going to invest in. And so I think that motion of turning product releases into something more public and more demand facing is going to be even more important now than it was even a few years ago. And something I think folks are under investing in and not really seeing as anything other than you know, check the box, wrote the release, wrote the notes, told the team what we did and like move on. It's such a good point because like in this age of AI and I think people are like maybe a little disillusioned. So this is probably even more of an opportunity now as we talk in August of 2026. Like I think people are a little disappointed with the feature depth of a lot of five coded apps across the board. And I think that just gives more of an opportunity to differentiate. And like that's time in talking about like security practices and then release updates because like Salesforce changes stuff. And ISB is as you all well know, if Salesforce puts out a release that like adjusts one of the standard objects or a custom standard objects that you all hang off of, like you have to make sure that that that works. And so every time it's not only your own releases, but it's also like, hey, will you take care of the Salesforce releases to ensure that it's not going to break anything in your production? Absolutely. And having a product team that pays attention to Salesforce's releases the same way they kind of pay attention to their own. That's key. I think Salesforce is a master class and using launches and releases as a marketing conversation. Yeah. I mean, a lot of ISBs get frustrated that like Salesforce like their product marketing as a couple of years ahead of the actual product. And it's like, so you can be frustrated yes. And they're a pretty successful company in an ecosystem that you live in, perhaps take a page out of their book and like lean into that a bit. I think that's why you also see so many ISBs, you know, adjust their own release cycles to kind of align with Salesforce as well as even their fiscal. How many ISBs we worked with that have a financial year that ends January 31st because that's when Salesforce does. And so aligning yourself to some of their best practices is just going to reduce that friction that a customer feels when they're trying to purchase something that also aligns with their Salesforce investment. Yeah, absolutely. Let's let's switch gears and talk about leads and revenue and dealers to ISBs. You can take one or more of these, but ISBs get deals from a lot of sources. App exchange direct both inbound and outbound events, SI partnership, Salesforce partnerships, probably some that I'm forgetting. What have you seen work well? What do you, what do you think ISBs should focus in on in 2026? Yeah, absolutely. I'll start with inbound because I know that's always a hot ticket for marketers and for sales. If you're not in sales, you work for sales. Like it's all about the pipeline. It's all about what you can bring in. There's a lot of discussions around marketing attribution and how to play out. I know about how you feel about that. I'm a big fan of the leadership as an inbound driver. So creating helpful content across that find useful is just going to benefit any company of any size to help build their brands, their reputation as knowledgeable in the space. It gets people interested in engaging with you via a download or signing up for a newsletter or a webinar because they want to hear what you have to say because it's tied to something of interest, maybe a challenge in the industry, a specific use case problem that you're solving for. But it's not talking solely about yourself. The idea of that thought leadership piece is talking about a problem that of course you solve, but in a much broader context so that the individuals who might be in the evaluation phase or are just now identifying that there's a problem that can be solved, you're getting in front of them early and you're helping shape the narrative, which is key. And you're doing that through creating really cool, usable content that can then be, I kind of call it the spider web. So one thought leadership piece is then multiple blogs. Maybe it's a couple of webinars, maybe it's a couple of YouTube videos, some demand, and emails, like it's all of these things that can be taken off of the, you know, spoke off of one piece of content that shows that your company and your brand knows what they're talking about and isn't just talking about themselves, but providing real values. So I think from an inbound perspective, love the thought leadership piece, not only because of like I said, the force multiplier of content, but the ability to really create a narrative in a space that shows that you are helpful. And just before you move on to a different lead source, like the recycling aspect, I just want to underscore that like one single thought leadership piece can be used in all of those different ways. And one thing I think even the best marketers forget to do is like, okay, so you created all this good content like those six different deliverables that you kind of spider webbed out, but like you fast forward 18 months, nobody remembers that you put it out. So like you get actually properly recycle everything every year or two. And like if one person notices that would be shocking. Exactly. Or take a subsection of that leadership piece and then blow it out into something bigger. So it's just it's a really, I won't I don't want to say easy because of course you have to come up with the idea of somebody else to write it. You have to design it like there are pieces to this. But you can really create this reusable content that can have a really long shelf life. And even if you don't, you know, put it out to market per se a year later, you have your sales teams have prospects coming in throughout the years who maybe weren't paying attention to you when you initially released it. Now your sales team has this piece of content that they can include in a follow up. And maybe that follow up is, Hey, we wrote this piece. Here's a quick clip on YouTube that talks exactly about the challenge we discussed on your call. So now they have a really impactful follow-up piece of content or a reason to be engaged with a customer that went dark where you're not asking them for something. You're giving them something. And I think that can hold a lot of value in the sales cycle as well. It's like, Oh, the sales rep is actually trying to help me not just following up because I haven't heard from you in three weeks on the deal we, I was trying to close. That's awesome. I cut you off. What other lead sources are worth digging into? We didn't really touched on the S.I. partners. We talked a little bit about the Salesforce partnerships and how Salesforce can be its own key ICP. And I think you can think about a size as something similar. How do you create your own play for a size that talks about the specific value that you bring to them? And it may be pretty similar to what your value is for a Salesforce seller, but creating your own play for those that size can be such a force multiplier because you're not selling one to one, like you are to a customer or a prospect, you're selling one to many because that size is going to come in contact with so many more customers. And so if you can get in front of them with your value proposition, with your better together story with how you help them as a partner, differentiate or solve a problem, I mean, you then are in front of a much wider audience where they're going to come to you once they've already vetted these customers for you. And so you can really speed up the sales cycle. You can make sure that you're really spending time on quality leads because a lot of that discovery work was already done by the SI partners. It's spending a little time to invest in lunch and learns or webinars specific to SI partnerships and making sure that you have a full go market strategy for those partners that looks different than it does to a prospect. I think that can be a really heavily influenced channel to bring it in, to augment what you're doing and you're inbound and outbound in event strategy. - Yeah, SI partners are such a super power of the ecosystem and especially over the last couple of years and speaking with a number of different ISVs and different shapes and sizes. The Salesforce partner referred leads like from A's and S's are harder than ever. And so that even gives more reason to lean into those SI partnerships these days. Let's talk events and specifically this episode will come out a little bit before Dreamforce this year. What's some advice you have for sponsors and non-sponsors that are just attending? - You know, I love this topic. I have been to, gosh, somewhere probably between six and eight Dreamforce is a lot of them. We've been able to go together, which has been a ton of fun. And I think you and I would both agree both you from the kind of go to market and sales perspective me from the marketing perspective that is all about the preparation. So what's strong strategy for your pre-event, onsite event and post-event activities? Like have that all dialed in really early. Make sure you're bringing the right people to support your brand and that you're enabling them with the right talking points. Don't assume, everyone knows your elevator pitch, don't assume everyone knows what they should be talking about at Dreamforce and most likely you were going with one specific big launch, big story, a certain demo path you want prospects to see. And so making sure that you really spend the time to enable your team to practice with your team before you ever even hit an airplane, getting creative around trying to capture those target personas and customers, making sure the team starts early. Like add slides to your QVR decks, months in advance, have a little blurb on every email that a sales rep sends out so that you are getting in front of customers and prospects that you know are going to be there. And even if they aren't there, again, similar to the product releases telling a narrative around your innovation, telling customers and prospects that you are going to Dreamforce, even if they aren't attending, shows your investment in the ecosystem. So take time to understand who's going to be there, but also don't limit it to just folks you know are going. And when you do know which of your prospects or to your customers or to your partners are going to be at Dreamforce, take time to understand where that audience will be sending their time. What are the happy hours they're going to go to? What events are they doing around Dreamforce? Are they speaking at Dreamforce? Go to where these prospects are because schedules fill up. It's easy to miss meetings when everything is back to back and you're running from Moscone Center to an offsite meeting back and trying to maybe eat in between things push and things get missed. So showing up where you know they will already be is a really good strategy to get in front of the folks that you want to get in front of without making them commit to like a time slot. And that's really, I think, especially helpful if you're the non-sponsor. So I mean, the price tag to sponsor Dreamforce has got to be in the mid six figures at this point. And if that's outside of your budget, there's so many ways to make an impact. You and I have done this in the past where you rent a portion of a hotel and you make that your home base and you offer people hot food and drinks and a place to charge their phone. And so if you're a non-sponsor, you still have this really great opportunity to be so flexible to either rent additional space or go to where your prospects and your customers are because you're not tied to a booth. And you can invest in more personal events, like happy hours, like dinners, like activation events. One of the more unique ones was the morning walk that you did, which was super popular with our European friends because at seven in the morning, they were up and ready to go. And so it was a great way to bring together individuals in a really inexpensive and creative way that didn't involve sitting around a table or looking at a presentation. It's the uniqueness that I think people remember rather than they came to your booth and they saw a demo or you tried to track them down in one of the weird little meeting rooms off to the side of the show floor. So I'd say get creative, go where the people are, be flexible and don't forget that it's not just customers and prospects, but dream forces are really great opportunity to have kind of key partners and key Salesforce employees, like SEs and regional and industry leads. I think one of the biggest aha moments I had a few years back was going, if you see all of the little industry booths where the Salesforce employees are doing their own demos. It's the SEs who care about that specific industry or cloud. That's who's giving those presentations. Those are also the people that you would probably like to get in front of and pitch your solution so that they can pitch that solution to customers that they get in front of who are trying to solve a problem. And so that's a free and easy way to get in front of people that you would like to get in front of and set up some time to dig in more once the event's over. - Love that, so much good stuff there. Yeah, it's just getting creative and like if you got a big budget, the booth is great. If you don't like, you can get good presence there done for five, 10 grand. And the ROI with that, if you have a place where you can sit down with current customers alone, we'll justify that span and let alone new prospects and partners. So much good stuff there. You've had a great career so far with the bunch more to come. What are you most proud of? - That's a tough one. I think I'd be building the marketing organization from scratch. So before our last run, I had built product marketing from scratch or built up a partner program from scratch. But recently when I was CMO, I built up the entire marketing organization from scratch coming in as a single digit employee, I think employee number probably seven and eight you and I were. And building the entire marketing engine from ICP definition to rebranding, to building that go-to-market strategy with you, it was super rewarding. I learned a ton and it was just a fun experience to really be able to take it from the absolute ground floor and build up what could be versus coming in and trying to adapt to someone else's playbook. It was just a blast. That's awesome and lastly, what are you working on right now? - So probably like everyone else leaning into mastering how AI is going to change the world of marketing. So really looking at AEO strategies and how AI can help streamline and amplify what a company is already doing from a marketing and go-to-market perspective. So building out those AI engines that weave in what I know and loved about messaging and positioning and thought leadership and brand building into this new way that consumers are researching how they're buying how companies need to adjust everything from kind of their top line website headline to the kind of content that they put out in a way that both resonates with humans as well as with agents. And so just leaning into to learn as much as I can there and experiment there, as well as just- of there's such opportunity to streamline the creative marketing process. So as we talked about things like the thought later start piece and hype and spider web it into all of these things, gosh, the ability to just feed a really great piece of content into your LLM of choice and ask it to build four blogs and three social posts and a webinar outline. I mean, it's something that would have taken weeks can now be done in hours and then spend the time to adjust and refine versus the initial drafting. So so much opportunity, super exciting to see what's coming and just playing around with what's possible. - Oh, that's awesome. As always, wealth and knowledge, let's wrap up with the final three, three questions, rapid fire, 10 second answers. Are you ready to go? - Sure. - Who is one company or person in the ecosystem that you track or follow? - I mean besides you, our old colleague, Sam Yarbrough is doing some really interesting stuff that I follow, not only does she have really great insights on partnerships, but the content that's coming out of the Arcadia community that she's built with her husband Jason, how leaders bring their best self to work and how coming from a place of authenticity and self-awareness just makes you a better leader. It's just a unique perspective and it's really nice to see that human approach, to kind of counteract everything we're seeing with that AI driven narrative as well. - What would you tell yourself day one of working in the ecosystem? - Not sound like a broken record, but create a nice EP for your partner. So everything you do should have a lens of what it means to Salesforce or to your partner. And that value proposition, the differentiators, the better together story is all going to look separate than what those key points are for your prospects and what you put on a website. - And lastly, what gives you energy in your personal life? - Travel, the best part I think of the remote work world is the ability to work from anywhere. So if I'm not at my cabin outside of Durango, just where I am right now, I'm planning my next trip. I've been looking up to spend a month or two working from say Costa Rica, lovely central time, easy to do. And so, you know, being able to work and travel and explore and see new cultures while doing your day-to-day, I think it's just been incredibly uplifting for my personal life again. - And what are none locked from like COVID of solid getting used to work remotely too? - I don't think we would have this flexibility without that. So, one good thing that came out of that period. - Agreed, agreed. - Well, see you in an awesome conversation, long overdue, thank you for sharing, thank you for being in the ecosystem. - Thanks for taking me along on the ecosystem ride that we've been on. I think we're three companies in. Maybe we've got a fourth in us, so let's find some time to do. - I couldn't edit that without you. Thanks, see you then. - Same. - Thanks for listening to today's episode of How We Got There. I hope you found something that you could try or a mistake to avoid at your ISB in the future. If you like what you heard and want to get notified of the next episode, please go over to Spotify or Apple or YouTube like follow, maybe even drop us a review, it would mean a lot. Take care. [BLANK_AUDIO]