How We Got There: Heather Mason, Founder of ISV Accelerators

Welcome to how we got there. I'm your host Mike Davis. I interview thought leaders and founders in the Salesforce ecosystem to help ISPs learn new things to try and mistakes to a boy. This episode is brought to you by ISP app. The usage analytics platform built specifically for Salesforce ISP and OEM applications. ISP app is your central toolbox for reducing churn, increasing renewals, uncovering upsell opportunities and closing more deals. Developed in close collaboration with Salesforce, ISP app delivers clear, actionable product insights for companies of all sizes and across every industry. Setup is fast. Most teams are live in under five minutes and leading partners like Sertinia, Task Gray, Cloud Coach, Litify, Site Tracker, Cornfairy, Contana, Bullhorn, and many others already rely on ISP app. Visit ispapp.com. That's ispap.com to see how you can start using usage data to grow your app today. I'm here today with Heather Mason, she's the founder of ISP Accelerators. She's worked at Salesforce, she's worked in the ecosystem for a number of years. I'm sure she'll share how many. Heather's super excited for you to share. I know you're a leading voice in helping ISPs and OEMs go to market more effectively in the ecosystem and stoked for you to share here. Well, thanks for having me, Mike. I've been following you since go to market guides and in fact, I think you were my first phone call when I was thinking about starting ISP Accelerators. Like this guy's doing what I'm doing. Let me pick his brain and you are very gracious. Well, thank you. Now you're really making it work. So, hopefully, whatever I said, like helped even a little scooch. Totally. Tell us about how you find your way into the Salesforce ecosystem. Yeah. So maybe it was 14-ish years ago or so. I was actually seller at Oracle at the time. And one of my good friends had just gone to this company called Insight Squared, who is the Salesforce partner. And he called me and said, "Hey, I know you're a relationship based seller and you haven't been an Oracle for too long, but we're looking to bring on somebody to run partnerships here. Would you be open to it?" And I was a little bit nervous going from a big, well-established company to a startup company. But then he said, "Hey, worst case situation if we fail. Now you'll have exposure to a new ecosystem, which is Salesforce." And I hear they're doing pretty good. So, what do you have to lose? And I was like, "Actually, you're right." So I took the leap. I went to Insight Squared for five and a half years and built the alliances between what was then and out of the box BI tool essentially for Salesforce and partnered with Mike Wolfe at the time who was running SMB. And the interesting thing was we were in the ecosystem the same time Salesforce had just bought Wave, which was essentially big. What ended up being a competitor to some degree, although they played more at market. But yeah, so long story short, I built the relationship between Insight Squared and Salesforce. From there, ended up going to Salesforce. Was there for another five and a half years? And then from there, started this company. That's awesome. Two really great runs at both of those organizations. I'm always curious to task folks who are at Salesforce, especially in the partner org that I'm left and are working in partnerships. What did your experience over there? How does that inform how you approach working with your clients today? And maybe touch on who are your clients too just in case folks don't know who you are already? Yes, sure. So I work with high potential Salesforce ISV partners that are either new to the ecosystem or new upcoming partners that Salesforce has identified as high potential. And just to define high potential a little bit in the context of this meeting, it really refers to those partners that help Salesforce sell more licenses because they're filling a gap in the Salesforce product set that customers are asking for and can help drive mutual revenue. When you have a product like that, there's a lot of power and going to market together with Salesforce. That's not to say that if you don't check all those boxes, there is still value in being a Salesforce partner. But for what I do, it's really more on the go to market side. And you really want to have that strong value proposition to Salesforce to be able to get the return on the investment. Nice. Love that. Thanks for sharing that background. But yeah, then how does your experience with Salesforce and form the work you're doing today? Great question. So I had a few different roles in Salesforce. I worked with SI partners for a bit supporting HLS and Finns. Then I worked on the ISV team supporting two of our summit partners at the time. But my last role was the best, most exciting one that's informing what I'm doing today. And that was working as a partner. I can't even remember the role of a partner strategy for the top 15 pharma companies. And the goal of that, which is interesting, LaShonda Anderson Williams came over from Microsoft and she got to Salesforce and she said, hey, this is a great ecosystem with a ton of partners, but we don't sell well together. We don't sell well with our partners. So her responsibility was to own all of health care and she wanted to have somebody sit in her org alongside her sales team and bring full solutions to customers. So no longer was it just her being responsible for her sales team selling, but it was all right, how can we bring in ISV partners? How can we bring in SI partners so that we're presenting solutions to customers not just products? That was the role that I think was the most exciting for me because it really solves a problem. It's making it easier for the customers to buy. So doing that role completely gave me insight into how sellers think, how sellers partner with ISV is the good and the bad, the impact that a strong SI relationship can have on a deal cycle. And how not only an AE thinks about an opportunity and a customer, but all the way up the chain, how an RVP thinks differently, how an AVP thinks differently. And I've always had exposure to it in Salesforce, but actually sitting on the sales team really gave me a first hand. So when I started this company, the mission is exactly the same. How do we help ISV companies partner with Salesforce, partner with others in the ecosystem, whether it's other size, other ISVs, but with the goal of making it easier for customers to buy a solution. It makes sales processes smoother, it makes the experience better, and it makes the outcomes stronger. All right, a couple of things there that I want to click on. First, like, Pharma at Salesforce when you were there had an extra layer of messiness because of Viva at the time. And so like the amount that you must have learned around channel conflict with Salesforce sellers, Viva sellers, size, who maybe preferred implement Viva, then a partner salute. Oh gosh, you yet like, yeah, you had like the extra layer of complexity of having like one of the strongest OEM verticals. And what I think I learned specifically around that is because as you mentioned, there's a lot of competing priorities, a lot of people having different things, different outcomes that they wanted to get. I think the most important thing I learned is there's no right answer, but you have to do what you think is the right thing, the ethical thing, whatever that is for you. So maybe it means losing a deal, maybe it means pissing off an RVP or an AVP, but if you truly believe that's the right thing to do, then that's what you need to do. And that has translated into everything else that I've done since then. And the time that you left Salesforce and started ISV accelerators, it's an interesting time because that was coming as Salesforce pre-consistently and has continued to consistently reduce the folks that are on their partnership team. And so like what that means for partners is there's fewer heathers in the world that are helping them kind of co-selefectively that are bad at Salesforce. So like brilliant on you to go out there. And so I guess from that like the reality that Salesforce has fewer people in the ISV partner roles than they did in 2019-2018, what do partners need to know about this reality? Well I think first we need to talk about why it's happening. I think historically partner managers have been really good at helping ISVs create their messaging, get their messaging into the field, help drive deals, things like that. Salesforce sellers now though have exponentially expanded the portfolio products that they sell. So well before when maybe they had smaller portfolios or or less things to focus on for their core, they were open to having more messages being sent to them. What you find now is these AE's have so many their own products I have to sell that having so many different partner messages and coming at them is tough. That's one thing. The second thing is the way that Salesforce is selling with ISV partners are changing. Even looking at the way that they're going to market with agent force and this consumption piece being a big piece, I think it's a new selling motion. I think AE's aren't used to necessarily this model. Don't know how to sell it partners as well as we'd like to think that they do. And rather than just flooding the field with more and more messaging from ISV partners, they're trying to pull that back a bit, figure out what this new better together messaging is and then what I I think we'll see as they figure out what that go to market motion is, I'd like to think that they're going to start ramping back up and really giving more support to the ISV community. But until then, fill your own pipeline. Love it. When my team and I were doing GTM guides, I would define it more as consulting. So you would stop short of joining calls with partners and stuff like that. And then there's consulting and there's fraction all. And I was looking at your website before this meeting. How do you define the difference? How do you think about what you do for your clients? Yeah, it really comes down to delivery. In an advisory model, generally, we're working with a company that has somebody enroll either as a seller, who's a player, who's playing as a seller and partnership person, or they have a dedicated alliance person that's either junior or doesn't really know the Salesforce ecosystem. So in that case, we're working alongside them, we're helping them, we're running calls in the background with them, we're prepping them and then letting them deliver. With fractional, I'm actually acting, or my team is acting as an employee of the company. We have an email address. We're getting on calls with Salesforce teams, we're getting on calls with sales, and sales opportunities. And we're actually owning the execution, which is great for companies that are thinking about, that are exploring partnerships. Hey, we think that there's something here. We think that we should sell a Salesforce, but we want to test it first and we want to test it with somebody who knows what they're doing. So we can see if it's worth bringing on a full time hire or not. So yeah, the difference in advisory and fractional is simply delivery. Nice. Yeah, and that fractional model. Like, your graduation is probably helping interview and like ramp up this person. Yeah. I mean, I have a huge network of people and one of my favorite things to do is connect people. So if I'm working with a client that I can see is gaining a lot of traction and, you know, my job is not to be 100% full time for them. But if they need that resource, the first thing I'm going to do is check my network. Because I got a ton of great people that are, you know, in and have been around the Salesforce ecosystem that, you know, I'd just love to match up. Love that. So what's going on these days in terms of like lead sources and how ISPs get deals. We've got, and you can take any or all of these, but you got App Exchange. You got direct inbound to their website. You've got direct outbound through SDR like work. You've got events. You got SI partnerships. You've got Salesforce partnerships. You've probably got other stuff now, I'm not thinking about what's working right now. Where do you see it out there? Ah, so that's a long question, but I'm happy to answer it. I'm seeing a bunch of different things and it depends on the partner. Of course, with everything else, the answer is always it depends. Branch Road did a pretty interesting analysis on visitors to the App Exchange. And what they found is the majority of people looking on the App Exchange from a customer perspective tend to be somebody in that admin type of a role. So if you're an ISP partner who's either sells to an admin or has an admin as a heavy influencer, investing time in your App Exchange listing in boosted materials, in co-branded websites, all of that does make a really, really big difference because your buyer is looking on the App Exchange for your kind of solutions. The other thing that I would do, I had a client that fit in this bucket. And we do some App Exchange coaching to some degree, but I wouldn't consider myself an expert in that. I don't know if you know Peter Garza, the App Exchange whisperer, that guy's just aces. If I have a client that really needs to invest in, that I think should really invest in App Exchange, he's the first person I'm connecting them with because he's really strong. On the other hand, if you have a solution that is highly technical or is not someone, something that an admin would be looking for, then spending time on the App Exchange, like have a listing, check the box, but that's not somewhere where I'd really, and really invest a lot of time. What I would do in that case, though, and what I'm working on customers, working with my clients on right now, is like, how do you create a point of view about your solution in a way that we'll talk to Salesforce and tell them, you know, how does it work together? How does it fill a white space for that specific customer? And then what we do is, rather than calling up the AE and, you know, asking about the client and seeing what information we can get, I think that's, you know, typically what I hear a lot of people trying to do. Instead of what we do is, I've really pushed my clients, like, let's create a point of view. Why is our solution a fit for this client? What are they struggling with that we can find out? And now with all of these, you know, AI tools up there, clawed, everything else. It's really, it's pretty simple to read a 10K, synthesize it, create a point of view. So what we're doing is creating a point of view on this customer. How can our solution help solve one of the major things a customer is struggling with? How might that either include a Salesforce product or impact a Salesforce implementation, whether it's additional consumption, whether it's stickiness, whether it's growth, whatever that is, and then take that information to the AE and say, hey, we have a point of view here. Can we run it by you and see if this makes sense? I'd love your thoughts on it. When you bring them information, it is such a better conversation and it leads to getting like sharing information, like how can we make this client successful together? I think I'm going to target these people or these are the right people. You know, they'll give you information in a responsible way to help guide that. And the result is you're cutting down on your BDR outreach time because you're focusing on the people that matter. You have a more informed point of view and it makes your deal cycle smoother. So I guess that's, you know, it's outbound for sure, but it's just a more informed way of doing outbound. That's great. Let's grill into Salesforce partnerships a bit more because I'm sure you're experienced with the Farma team because when I was selling at Kanga, I was doing some strategic accounts and I was shocked at the number of sellers that were assigned to an account like Coca-Cola. And so maybe you can touch on that and whether it's like GSK or Bayer, it doesn't matter who it is, but like pick any sort of like large global organization, like how many Salesforce sellers are like thinking about that customer at any given time? I mean, if you're just talking about sellers, there could be, you know, five, eight because there's, you know, there's, there's at least five in a major account, but there's probably a lot more because you've got all the products, but that's not even including the essays that care about the account, the customer's success, people that care about the account, the technical architects, the enterprise architects, like there are so many people that surround these enterprise accounts. I'm in a deal cycle right now with one of my clients. And I think we've talked to maybe 18 people at Salesforce in the account, like it is crazy. Now, that's a different approach than if you're talking to an SMB customer which might just have one AE, a, you know, an SC that covers multiple accounts and maybe customer success. And in those accounts, and like a pretty hands-on RVP, especially if it's like a junior rep, too. I was just going to say that the one thing that always surprises me even working inside Salesforce is how involved the RVPs are in the deal cycles. Like I always like would just message the AE and not include the RVP because I felt like it was like going over their heads. And every time they'd be like, did you copy, you know, my boss and I was like, no, isn't that weird? They're like, no, but the way that they really do team sell like that, especially at the, you know, SMB, even lower mid-market levels is amazing. It's really, really good. Well, and I think that's such like, I mean, you talked about like going with relevant information and I think it all starts with an empathy of like understanding what that like selling team looks like because at a Coca-Cola or a GSK with like 20 people and then you have SI sales people in there and all these folks, like it's going to be really hard for you to add unique value as an ISB because you're trying to own a business and like you're, you have way more accounts than the Salesforce sellers ever have. And so I don't know, I just think it's a really good insight to start with is to have that empathy of what that account team looks like. Well, and I think that as an ISV partner, no matter how small your solution is, you solve a unique problem because if you didn't, then you probably wouldn't be pursuing an account where Salesforce has a competing or overlapping solution unless you know there's a problem. So even if your solution's small, I think the point is is you can have a strong point of view on how you can help the customer, but it's important to also let the teams know like this is how it interfaces with the solutions that you're providing. It's not a overlap. It's not a compete, but it'll enhance because of this, this and this. So having that understanding going in and again, like it's easier to find this information now more than it's ever been. Sure. Like, don't be lazy. Go out there and use the tools that are there and you'll have much better conversations than just calling and being like, "Hey, I'm exploring this account. Like, what can you tell me?" Yeah, can you intro me? Yeah. I don't even know to who, but can you intro me? That's, and then I guess what's the right moment? Because if I'm an ISV listening to this, like this sounds good. Like I'm interested. I want to code sales force. I want to learn from Heather on all these things. What's the right time? Is it like, when I have targeted the account, it's after I've spoke with the Salesforce Admin, is it after I've spoke with the executive sponsor? Is it when it's mid or late stage? opportunity, when's the optimal time to co-sell a sales force? Oh, well, again, it depends. I think number one, you have to have value to add. If you're going to call an account team and not have any value to add, then that can tell you it's not the right time. But if you, number one, have a really strong point of view, you've seen something in the news, you've found something in their 10k, which makes you believe that you've got a unique value. I think that's a reason to reach out, number one. The worst thing I can say is no, but if your message is compelling, I found that 85% of the time they take the call, even if it's just one call. So there's that. Number two, if you're in a deal cycle, and they bring up the customer, brings up sales force or talks about projects they're working on, then I think it's a good time within the context of what's appropriate, you know, to reach out to the sales team and say, hey, listen, the customer, I'm talking to the customer about this, they brought up sales force and their solutions. I want to make sure that we're making it a seamless experience for the customer. Can I share a little bit about what we're doing, and can maybe you share about what they might have been mentioning, so that we're not competing against each other in the deal. So I think those two times have something to provide value. And if they bring up sales force, then I think it's appropriate. Love that. That's, that's great tactical advice. And like folks that have an ISP, Pam versus they don't have an ISP, Pam, it's, it's harder or easier to get in touch with whoever the sales force seller is on a given account. And so I don't know if you have any recommendations or advice for folks on how to get that in different scenarios. Um, well, what I would say is you mentioned earlier that, you know, sales forces cut back a lot on the pans, and that's true. So you can imagine a pan that's used to having five customers or five ISP partners now has 10 or 15. So I think number one, if you have an a Pam, making it as easy for them to help you as humanly possible is the most important thing. Be prescriptive. Don't expect them to come to you with ideas on how to drive your business. Historically, they were able to do that a bit more. I know when I was at sales force, I only had two partners. So it was easier for me to help guide them, be proactive, bring them information. But if I had 10 partners, I couldn't have done that. Um, so if you're an ISP partner, you know, have a very specific ask, make it easy for them to help you. If you're asking about an account, send the URL of the customer to the Pam because that's how they look up information in sales force. If you just send an account name, Blue Cross Blue Shield, they're going to be like, are you kidding me? We've got 45 of these in our, in an instance, I don't know which one you're talking about. But if you send a URL, then they can do it quickly. So make it super easy for them. If you don't have an ISV Pam, then it's a lot harder. I don't know what the recommended way to go about finding an AE is. If you don't have a Pam, I think there's probably like a point of contact you could submit to, but I don't have a good answer for that. One thing, if I can, if I can share, please, if you're talking to the sales force customer, and well, if you're talking to the customer, you're talking to the sales force admin, they're going to know. So ask them, ask him or her who, who their AE is, and then you can reach out and be like, oh, I was talking to Jim and he mentioned. And if you're not talking to the sales force admin, but your sales force ISV, it's a great opportunity to, whoever you're speaking with at the customer to be like, hey, at this stage of the sales cycle, I generally like to meet with the sales force admin team just to get them comfortable with our technology. Then on that call, you can talk to them about the other projects that they're working on. And it helps you kind of just get a little bit wider in the account because it removes risk. It removes deals go and close loss for, which is the worst. Yep. Yep. I love that advice. Thank you. That's a good one. What are you most proud of from your time with ISV accelerators? Ah, God. I think I'll make it a little bit more broad. I think I'm most proud generally of the network that I've built both while I was at sales force, but also after. I think like I said earlier, I love being a connector. I love helping match people together, finding business solutions that are complimentary. And if I look through my LinkedIn, I think I've had at least one conversation with almost everyone in my network. It's kind of a prerequisite. So if someone sends me an ad, then I always send them a message back being like, I'd love to connect. It doesn't matter who they are, but I just want to have a conversation so we know a little bit about each other. That way, it's a much more meaningful connection. So if I'm working with a client who has this unique need, maybe it'll trigger a conversation that I had previously. So yeah, I would definitely just say my network. A lot of good people in there and people are how things get done. That's seriously impressive. Good for you. What's been a mistake you've made along the way? That's a great question. I'll rephrase it from a mistake to a learning experience. But what I would say is probably not vetting clients hard enough. And what I mean by that is there's a certain point that I think you need to be at as an ISV before you start considering scaling through partners. And it's really easy when you're talking with founders who are really excited and really passionate about their solutions to want to help them. I think early on I took on a client that was just far too early to be looking at partnerships. They were super passionate about their solution. And in fairness, their solution was awesome. And I could see a very clear line of how it would pair with Salesforce products. So from that perspective, they should have been a very like they would fit the criteria of what we would typically work with. The challenge was though, I think they only had maybe two customers. They were very, very early stage. And they didn't even have their own ICP very clearly defined. They didn't really know their positioning. And it's impossible. And I'm going to use that word because that's what I found it to be. It's impossible to create meaningful partnerships until you know how to sell your own product. So I think what I would say is one mistake I made was trying to help a partner too early. And I wish I had just said, listen, let's wait a year and then revisit this because I think the outcome will be much better. Yeah, I'm like envisioning a slide in your in your ISP accelerator pitch deck. You have to be this tall to ride this. Yeah. So hard because founders are so passionate and they get you so excited. So you see it and you want to help them and you know that the end vision, like you can see it together with them. But the attention span of Salesforce in general is so small. And it's so, you know, they have so much of their own stuff to do. They can't spend time figuring out how to co sell. You have to have that message nailed. You have to be ready. You have to have customers to back it up. And you have to be able to tell that story. And if you only have two customers, you're just not in that place yet. I think I saw sorry. I'm going to go back to go to market stuff real quick. I think I saw somewhere you were at a Salesforce event recently. Are those still? Are those still good marketing opportunities for ISPs in your point of view? I think again, it depends. I've worked with a couple of different clients. One of them who promotes has a booth at every event and one who sponsors nothing but goes to them. And I think depending on the audience, again, you're going to get different results. The ones that are focused on the admin level people, kind of the manager level, maybe director level tend to do really, really well with booths because that seems to be the kind of people that come by the booth and they're interested. They have a problem and they're looking for a solution. If you've got a product that's more aimed at, you know, a CEO or a SPP or a higher level person, I think renting a booth is tough. And I've seen better success sponsoring smaller events, whether they be round tables or curated, you know, curated half day sessions or things like that. So I would say it depends on the audience. But it generally are a great place to go and meet customers, prospects, Salesforce teams and one fun fact, which I think I've actually heard you say before too, but it's worth re mentioning. Go to the Salesforce demo booths at any of these events because that's where you're going to find the SEs at Salesforce, the product leaders and ask them, listen to their demos, hear how they're positioning their solution, ask how they solve whatever problem your solution solves for and see what they say. It's really interesting to hear what their alternatives are. And most of the time, they're like, we don't really know, but we'll check the app exchange or we don't really have a solution for that, but we would do this. Well, that's your perfect opportunity to say, hey, that's interesting because this is kind of what we do. And I'd love to continue this conversation, talk with your team, blah, blah, blah, whatever that next follow-up is. But yeah, I had David Young who runs SC team on the pod and we were talking about that. And that's how he finds out ISV. So he doesn't have to say, oh, yeah, I'll check the app exchange on that. It's like he meets folks at these events. And yeah, because they're getting paid to be there, they have to stand at the booth either way. So like if you're engaging and friendly and genuinely curious and ask for their advice, they're going to be normal people and give it to you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, I hope now too that I did hear your podcast with David. I think he's amazing. And I heard him say, you know, we don't really, I don't really have a good place to find. ISVs necessarily. They have a bunch of like internal resources, but to his point, they're kind of all piecemeal. There's not one like real centralized factual place. What I'd be interested to know is if you interviewed him again today, now that Slack bot's been heavily adopted and really being used internally, if he would have a different answer. Because I feel like that is going to be, or maybe even is now in the bet that I'm making, you know, I've been working with a couple of people inside Salesforce to understand a little bit around the algorithm and how that works. Because I think that might be the single greatest opportunity for ISVs to get their message where it belongs in the context of what the teams care about. Without investing, you know, resources in an alliance person or all of this heavy, heavy work, if it's as simple as optimizing resources that can be consumed by Slack bot. Like could that be a thing? I think it could be. Totally. And David's ears are ringing and they'll bring again when I released this episode. So that's great. Back to events because this will come out probably really July, maybe late June, but still enough time to prep for Dreamforce. And it's interesting because yeah, you could have a booth. You're going to spend six figures plus plus if you're going to get a booth, and that's great if you got it. But if you don't go in there and walking around, that can be difficult, getting a wee workspace. That can be hard. But I've found so much success. I'm curious if you've done this with any clients before. But like renting a table at one of the other bigger ISVs or SIs like off-premises like restaurants or bars they run out, it's such a good cost-effective option for like five grand ten grand for the duration of the event because then you can like invite all these people and sit down and have a calm space. So I don't know if I was just thinking of that with regards to events if you've seen any success around that. Yeah, I think that's a great idea. Especially if you have similar customers to who the SI typically serves. Yeah, you're bringing clients to their meeting space. That's absolutely brilliant. And it also gives you the opportunity to get in front of them ahead of time. Talk a little bit about what you do so that they are familiar with you. Yeah, that's a great idea. Nice. So Heather, what are you working on right now? So one of the things that I'm working on now is a package offering. So to date most of my services are ongoing support services. But what I found is there's a good amount of partners that don't necessarily need ongoing support. They need help cleaning up their messaging. That's something that a PAN used to be able to help them do. You know, give them assets, help them create their assets, help them tweak it and manage it so that it's optimized for what a sales foreseller cares about. Well, now there's so many less PANs. They don't have the ability to work so closely with partners to be able to get that messaging where it should be. So what I've been working on is a package offering. One-time cost will build out three assets for you that are in the format with which Salesforce would expect it to be that really speak to the go-to-market better together messaging, how your product or how the ISV products compliments a Salesforce product. And then working with the PANs to get it in the right channels. Even if you don't have your own dedicated internal channel, there's channels within Salesforce that will consume these assets. So the offering is going to include a three asset, a three piece of asset build based on the sales toolkit. It's going to include creating, managing and distributing those assets within Salesforce. And I'm really excited to see if that's something that ISV partners find valuable, get benefit out of and get excited about. I love it. That's super exciting, really good idea. That'll be great. Well, Heather, let's wrap up with the final three questions, 10 second answers you're ready to go. Yes. Who's one company or person in the ecosystem that you track or follow? Who could I give three? Okay, good. Brandon, Albert, let's read Barnett and Layla Koopal. What would you tell yourself day one of working in the ecosystem? Don't take shortcuts, do the work, learn the products and earn the ask. And lastly, what gives you energy in your personal life? Two things. I would not be a true crossfitter if I didn't find a way to mention CrossFit in an interview. So that's and second, connecting with people. I'm looking forward to going to the Arcadia Offsite this year. So Mike, I don't know if you'll be there, but I'm really looking forward to connecting with people. I can't go this year and I'm so sad. If folks are listening, go to Arcadia, you're going to be there. Sam, obviously, and Jason are going to be there. My old boss, Blakely Graham is going to be there. JP, like it's probably going. I haven't talked to him in a while, but I'm going to have some serious phone. We'll be switching. I'm going to be out on the East Coast during that time. Well, Heather, thank you for sharing. Thank you for taking the time. I love the work that you're doing, and I really appreciate your time. Thank you for having me, Mike, and it's great to talk to us always. Thanks for listening to today's episode of How We Got There. I hope you found something that you could try or mistake to avoid at your ISB in the future. If you like what you heard, and want to get notified of the next episode, please go over to Spotify or Apple or YouTube, like follow, maybe even drop us a review, it would mean a lot. Take care.