How Unilever is transforming brand building with creators, social media and AI

[Music] Creator Marketing is exploding. More creators, more content, more money spent on media, but confidence hasn't kept pace. Link AI create a content insight, change that. They turn influencer ads into predictive insights you can act on so you know what to scale before budgets are spent. Discover how you can invest your confidence, not guesswork, with Link AI by Cantor. Visit try.kant.com/campaigns/marketing-week. [Music] Hi everyone and welcome back to the latest episode of the Marketing Week podcast. I'm Nive Carol, News Editor at Marketing Week. Today we're joined by Selena Sykes, Global Vice President for Digital, Social and AI Transformation in Unilever's beauty and wellbeing business group. Unilever is undergoing a marketing transformation, something Selena is spearheading in the Beauty and Wellbeing division. The company's transformation has attracted a lot of attention, particularly the creator aspect. But as Selena tells me on this podcast, Unilever's focus is less about individual channels and more about continuing its mission. Having brands in a world where how people shop and consume media is rapidly changing. We dive in to what a marketing transformation really means against an ever-evolve and backdrop and how Selena sees this process as an ongoing mission rather than a one-time process. We discuss the role that AI has and all that and where it's really driving a step change for the organisation. The conversation covers how Unilever is transforming brand building but Selena puts a lot of emphasis on what is staying the same. She's keen to emphasise that the fundamentals of brand building will always be consistent. Fab, thank you Selena for joining us. I wanted to dive straight in and talk about Unilever's marketing transformation. Transformation is obviously in your title. I think there's been a lot written by me and a lot's talked about around Unilever's marketing transformation. But I guess I wanted to start with the why. Unilever obviously has a really impressive reputation over decades for being a great brand builder. I guess what is it about the modern ecosystem that necessitated this transformation really? Yeah, I think it's a great question and it's interesting that transformations in my title because I think if you look back, people saw these transformations as programmes that kind of happened every now and then. What we're seeing now is in marketing, we believe that the fundamentals are exactly the same, like building distinctive brands with consistency, with clarity, making sure those brands have reached can be discovered, making sure that you can persuade people to be relevant to people, making sure that you can convert people and get your sales. Those fundamentals are exactly the same. But what we've seen is that how you achieve those things is radically different and it continues to change. It's being driven increasingly by new commerce models and new content models, creator ecosystem, AI powered platforms. So ensuring that we are delivering those marketing fundamentals, continuing to build these really huge brands that have penetration in so many households globally in a part of everyone's lives in 2026, in 2027 and continuing, we have to really maintain a closeness with what's changing in the marketing ecosystem and having that transformation. How does that then filter down in practice, like how are you working with the teams in the beauty of wellbeing division to really bring that to life and take them into this kind of new era, I guess, of life? It's such an exciting time. I think there's a couple of things we're doing. First, we're very outcome-focused because I think you can get really distracted by how much is going on. There's always some new thing that someone's talking about, some trend and we really try to not be distracted by that and focused on our business outcomes, our brands, the impact we want to have and then work backwards. So then what needs to change, what needs to transform to achieve those outcomes. And as we do that, we really identify new capabilities that we need to build, new ways of reaching people, new ways of persuading and selling our brands. And then how I work with the teams is effectively, we kind of really codify what needs to change in how we do marketing, really build up those and that could involve everything. I always think it's quite a system-led, it's not just tech, it's also the change in the people. It's huge, the cultural adoption, the skills you need to build, the mindsets you need to build, and then it's the processes. The way of working is going to change completely. So this combination of people, process and the technology creates new systems and that's what we start to embed and start to bring our teams on board with and start to scale throughout our business and our brands. It's interesting, you know, you were talking about that idea that I guess transformation used to be seen as kind of like this finite process of something someone would do, you know, every other company would do every once in a while. But it sounds like, you know, it's kind of continuous process that you leave it. And I guess how are you making sure that, you know, while you're implementing big transformative changes, you're also keeping up with what's happening now, how are you keeping ahead while transforming? I'm really geeky about the subjects, I think so much in the transformation space is about the people and bringing them on a journey to do that. So you're right, you have to land things, you have to embed things, you have to show impact, you don't just do change for change, you do change, so you get better business impacts. So we're constantly looking at like, is the change we're landing adopted, executed and driving effectiveness? Like that's a constant look. But while you do that, you also have to keep your eye on the horizon and say, like, well, what else could be happening and what could be changing? I find it hugely exciting. I think it's probably the most exciting time to ever be working in an industry like marketing and because of the pace of change. So how we do that again, it's, it's focus. So I have this phrase that I use in the business called capability velocity. And I love the word velocity because if you're anyone's a scientist listening, it's speed times direction. So you have to keep moving fast, you have to have pace and speed to get things landed and to show impact, but you have to have direction. You have to make choices of where you think that impact is going to be and you have to focus on those and to your point with something like AI where things are, you know, you're right with within six months, the conversation completely changes. You have to keep focusing on we want better business impact. So what's the solution that we can try today? What do we need to remain agile and free to change because it might change in the future? What do we want to just start experimenting and landing today? I can give you an example. We've built a really strong content capability in Unilever using AI. So an AI powered and we call it content supply chain. We've built a lot of that with quite foundational technology, foundational processes that we have started to experiment and we got really early results showing us how well this model was moving. But within six months, you realize that the actual technology moves even faster. So when we started, it was a lot of image-based content generation, quite quickly video became possible and then that opens up a whole new realm of possibilities for us. So as we even built that, we realized that we needed to keep some freedom within that. So what we start doing now is we create really clear frameworks of where we want to experiment and then we keep really giving everyone space to use the new technology to experiment with new processes. So we maintain that velocity of landing the change as it's happening in the market. I think one of your colleagues that phrase about performing while transforming, I think that's so key and can be difficult, that's tracking that balance as you say between experimentation and also delivering the gains. Any other particular thing in the AI space? Because I think still sometimes in conversations about AI, we talk about it in the abstract. You know, we talk about AI is one great amorphous thing. And I wondered whether there were any particular examples you wanted to share around a particular initiative that has really stopped change, how you're doing things at Unilever. I think you're right, this content of perform while you transform is really important and AI really is enabling us to do that because there's ways we can use AI today that's going to really help us perform in the market and deliver value. And then there's ways in which we think AI is going to evolve and change in which it will really transform our whole business model. So I can give some examples and I like how you phrased it because what we try and talk about in Unilever is not having AI use cases but having AI value cases. So what's the value creation that the AI is using? So one I'll give is the content example that I, that's probably our biggest gain that we've made in marketing is using AI to enable our content supply chain. So we've been able to really dramatically drive the volume of content that we create. We've also been able to make savings, cost and time savings are significant and I think the most exciting part of it is the improvement in the actual performance of that content. So we're seeing content that's part of that AI enabled supply chain is 23% better purchase intention and uplifts versus content that hasn't gone through that supply chain. And it's worth mentioning that that AI workflow is humans and technology working together. So it's a really strong value case and that's why we're really investing and growing that capability further. I mean it is interesting like you know you're talking about kind of quality as well as volume there and I think sometimes like marketers fear of AI maybe slightly. is that you're kind of adding to the volume of content that's out there. So tell me about the safeguards about how you're making sure that why you're creating more volume. That is making impact. Is she so 100% because it's not just about activity. It's about the effectiveness of it. So one of the biggest safeguards we've put in is this. I'd almost call it a brand intelligence layer. So we call it our brand DNA. Does that mean sense? So it's the brand DNA. And what we've done is we've taken all of our power brands in Unilever and we've really coded them into a AI model, which takes everything that we know about them. So all of the look and feel the colors, the fonts, the tone of voice, the communities and cohorts that it's relevant to. It's brand meaning, it's distinctiveness. Everything about the brand that we know and that we believe should be coded into all the content that goes out from that brand. We've put into the brand DNA. And then that means that any model that we choose to use to either remix our content or generate our content can feed off of that intelligence layer and can therefore operate within the guidelines. And actually, this is a great example of how AI is not just driving efficiency. Having that brand in AI makes our all our content more consistent. All our content better within the brand guidelines because it's been hard coded in. And we're really building out those capabilities to make them even more effective by getting performance data back into that intelligence. So then you know what works, you know what doesn't work. And then that's again being coded into the next piece of content that you create. Absolutely. I feel like we couldn't have a conversation about Unilever's marketing transformation without talking quite a bit about creators. And especially, you know, there's been lots of headlines about, and I have the number here's some work because I don't want to miss, quote, your CEO, Fernando Fernandez talked about, I think this is back in February, but talked about that in the last year, the number of creators, a beauty and wellbeing division had worked with gone from 75,000 to 180,000, which obviously a very big increase. When you're talking about keeping, you know, the brand fundamentals correct across AI, when it comes to creators and, you know, trusting out your message to thousands of creators, how are you ensuring that these people are maintaining the brand from the mentors? Yeah, I, it's such an important point. And it's something that I see a lot of companies, you know, questioning when they're starting to work with the Creator ecosystems. But for us, before we started this journey, we really like looked inward about like, do we know how, what our brands should be saying? Are we clear, really clear on who our brands are and how they'll show up? Because you can't start going and talk to these creative people who are making content every day and ask them to be consistent to your brand if you're not even clear. How your brand can be relevant to culture today. You know, if you've got these very, you know, old fashioned brand guidelines, you need to really think about your brand in the world today and think about how it can be relevant and how it can show up. So we started with really deep work about our brands and how they should show up. And with that clarity, then you can have really powerful relationships with creators. And I feel that creators can be a really powerful part of our brand building mix. Because if you have meaning within your brand, if you have something that's worth sharing, creators are a fantastic partner to work with to share that. To share that in a really authentic way, to really build relationships with wider communities. And to your point, one of the things that we've done is we've really de-affredged the concept of a creator. And if it's with very high tier creators who are more kind of taste makers and gatekeepers of culture, we tend to have more long term collaborations with them. So we work, they, it's not just us briefing them on our brand, it's about bringing them in to the brand ecosystem and getting them to be co-authors of our brand stories. So we make sure that it's relevant for our brand. We're keeping that brand consistency and that brand mess is strong, but in a way that's really going to resonate in culture and resonate with the communities that we want to engage with. That's how we work with those creators. And then the creators that you reference that drive the scale, whether they're affiliates or nanos or UGC, it's about having really clear messages and knowing what you want them to say. And then building communities around that is really cool ways of how you can work with those different influence networks to coach them, give them briefs. Because they want to make content that's engaging, they want to make content that the brand wants to promote. So if you change your model and you start to work with them more like a community, what you're building is actually advocacy for your brand. And then you find that your brand message is shared in a really strong way. You know, I think like not too long ago, a lot of brands were seeing creators as kind of like a bolt on and clearly it unilievered, you know, you guys are trying to make core to the strategy. But I guess when it comes to kind of the relationship between your senior marketers and then filtering that down into what's coming out from these, you know, whether it's really big creators or the thousands or maybe nanocreaters, like how are you kind of maintaining that strategic fit so that it is core to the brand strategy as opposed to just a bolt on. It very much depends on what the brand job to be done is. So I can talk about a launch that we recently had in the UK with Trezemey. So Trezemey's brand has been around for a long time. And we relaunched it with an incredible new formula. To the point that the formula was so good, you could almost say, well, how is this coming from a brand like Trezemey, which is a brand that I buy in the supermarket, the products, fantastic. I've used the product. It's incredible. And because of that brand job to be done, where you're really trying to share this like wow factor of the new formulation and the relaunch, using this nano creator community was a great way of doing it because you literally are getting real people's views of how this product's changed, real people who've used Trezemey. So we were able to create a really consistent brief that talked about the message we wanted to get out there, which is that Trezemey has really fundamentally changed its formulation and it's incredible. And you've got to give it a try. And you can see how that brand job to be done works really well with a nano creator community. So then when you give that brief out, we had a really key formula around it with like what are the five stars you would give it and everyone would have different types of five stars depending on their hair and their needs. So it allowed for the creativity and the authenticity of the nano creators, but it also kept really clearly within the framework of the brand messaging and that consistency that we want to drive. And for that brand job to be done, it was really, really effective and it drove that campaign really successfully. There might be other jobs to be done where you work differently. So keeping that strategy clear and right through to the nano creators very much depends on what your brand job to be done is and what kind of messages you want to get out there, just like any marketing you do. I guess speaking about brand job to be done, like I think kind of some outsiders, when seeing, you know, the headlines about you guys increasing the number of creators you work with have sort of criticised you and even for having a bias to invest in creators. I guess how are you making sure that, you know, when it comes to media mix that it actually fits well and how are you experimenting to get that right balance with, as you say, the brand job to be done in the market job to be done as well. I think what I'd say is like it's not an either or we don't at all see anything about this as being any any part of our mix competing with each other. All we focus on is the impact and the effectiveness and we have a really strong ROI models. As I say, depending on the brand to be done will create a mix that that really drives, you know, the best outcome and impact and effectiveness for our brands in the market in which have a market that we're driving them. So there's definitely not any in going preference. It's more of a very clear look at what the effectiveness is and what the outcome is and then we choose the best model for that. When it comes to creators, you know, you guys are, you know, talk a lot about the powers of others say that's like a phrase, ringing creators and the power of that. And I guess I wanted to talk about the power of, you know, your big brands among that, you know, when clearly creators have a role in driving kind of brand trust, but talk about the role of like that a big brand that's built a equity, can play in that ecosystem above like a startup or a new brand. Yeah, I think when you've got huge brands, not only do they have a legacy that has stood the test of time, there's something about that brand that has some really deep meaning that has connected with people to take a brand like Vaseline. Vaseline has been around for 100, 150 years, having that longevity, but also having that scale that it's used, you know, it's, I don't know the penetration number, but I'm sure it's really highly penetrated across the world. We often say that there's a unit leave of product being used every three seconds. So these are products that are in people's homes. They're being used every day, they've been used for hundreds of years. And if you've got a brand like that with that scale, it means that there is something deeply relevant and meaningful about that brand that means it's been able to stick around over all those generations of families over all those different cultural waves societal waves, economic waves. There's been something of deep human insight and deep human connection and deep human meaning. And I think that's what I mean about the fundamentals for us. We believe in those fundamentals. What we see now is that the way to share that deep insight of why our brands are relevant, why our brands are meaningful to people today, the way to share that is by finding a way that you can engage people others to share and talk about your brands because today there are ways that people can do that that they couldn't do 50 years ago. And that's what's changed. So it's these brands with scale with legacy, they really have strong meanings, strong connection with people and we're just trying to find ways to spread that. and to make sure that the relevance of our brands is really shared at scale. You know, that's what we call desire at scale. The desire has always been there for our brands. The desire is there, but the scale of our brands means that we really need to use these new models, AI, creator ecosystems to get that reach and scale across our brands. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you've already said it's not kind of an either-all scenario. I guess how is kind of create an influencer marketing working together with your paid media? I guess make it more than some of its parts right and to really feed into each other. A hundred percent because we don't see influencer marketing as a channel or like a media channel that we're choosing between hints like you said it's not an either-all. How it can work is, as I say, we start by thinking about how some of these people who are taste makers, who are kind of gate keeps of culture, can come and be co-authors of our story with us. So that's a real shift. So that is not just about choosing them in our mix. It's about bringing them into the conversation and collaborating with them and the other partners that we work with. So again, it's not an either-all. It's about collaborating with everyone and bringing these voices together. So that's one way that we see it really working with our mix. And then when you get to actually syndicating that and getting that out into the world, it's about how we create big ideas, really key messages that people want to share and then finding the systems that you can get that shared. And that's like the nanos, the affiliates, all of those methods. But also, paid media has a really strong place because when you've got something that's really strong, you can amplify it and get even greater reached scale using the paid media. So it has a really important role to play as well. And that's why we look at our return on investment across everything. We don't, like I say, we don't trade things off against it each other. It's about the content, it's about the channel, it's about formats, about looking at it holistically and working out what's the right mix to get the right performance for our brand. Clearly like, you know, shareability, what it comes to create is, is like an amazing thing and it create a lot of excitement in the business. You know, a campaign takes off and goes viral. But obviously, you know, as a business, you want to go beyond impressions or interactions and link that back to ultimately business results. So talk to me about how you are capturing the impact of that. Yeah, I think it's really important, like this concept that I'm really focused on and the transformation is the effectiveness of what we do. You know, is it really driving that? And I, how we look at that is of course, engagement is like maybe an early indicator that this is connecting with people and this is driving some talkability, some commentary, like you're really connecting it some ways. It's a sentiment positive, what are people saying? All of those things we look at, what are people searching for, whether it's on AI assisted search or on other search channels, all of those are really good indicators for how well it's connecting with people. But ultimately, we look at effectiveness through, is it full funnel? Is it driving the awareness? Is it driving the engagement? Is it driving the conversion? And we look to what's driving our brand growth, our sales performance in the short term, but also driving the equity of our brand. So we have equity measures that we're looking for in terms of how salient our brands are. Our brands really differentiated, are they meaningful? Are they creating that kind of mental availability for people? And yeah, as well as the sales? When it comes to kind of the split between performance and brand marketing, on the creator channel, is that as relevant, that old 6040 mix? Talk to me about that on credit. I don't know, I'm not sure about the numbers in the mix, but performance and brand marketing, I really think you need to look at the full funnel now. You absolutely should be building your brand, should be making sure that your the meaningfulness of your brand and the and messaging of your brand is there, but it needs to be at a point where it's converting and that it's bringing the reason to purchase to the front. And there are channels like TikTok shop, social commerce where that all happens really quickly. And then there are other channels where you can really create wonderful storytelling moments that are more, you know, upper funnel. And those moments still exist too. So it's about being able to keep, I think often people find it hard to keep two truths alive that feel quite different. I think we're able to maintain that paradox with like there is the funnel is still alive and you've got to create assets and connections with people that drive the full funnel, but at the same time you need to realise that sometimes that funnel happens immediately and all the other way around and you need to react to that as well. And there's a lot about what I do in the transformation is help to code that for our marketers so that it can be really successful at navigating that and making sure that we win where we need to win, when we need to win. No, absolutely. I mean, yeah, the shopping journey on TikTok shop looks so different to like a traditional FMTD. 100% and agente commerce is about to rewrite that completely. And we see it coming and we're preparing for it really well. So this is my point, the things are going to keep changing and that's okay. That's okay to keep that there while it's okay to know that the fundamentals need to be true too. So we're keeping both those truths alive. Absolutely. I mean you just mentioned kind of working for the teams through all this. And I guess when we're talking about all this change, transformation can be exciting, can also be kind of unsettling. So how are you bringing, you know, the teams that you and I leave through all this to enable them to, yeah, deliver the best for the company and for themselves? I love that question because I personally am so invested in the human side of this. For our consumers, the people that buy our brands, I think it's so important to think about them and understand them as humans. But also for our marketers who are like you say, dealing with all these different things that they're doing, I think it comes back to kind of the basics of clarity. You know, you can't ask people to go through transformations without a clear North Star. It doesn't mean that you know all the answers on day one. And you can say that, but you can give people a really clear North Star. And for us, often that that's really focused around our business outcomes. And like that's what everything is in aid of that. We're not just doing change because we think it's sexy or cool. We're doing it because we really see the business outcomes and we believe it. Then being able to give people things they can hang their hats on. So that's why measurement and metrics are important because people can start to see progress that they're making. And then as you say, like just supporting people, one of the things I love about Unilever is it's a really, it has such energized, positive people. And we all work together to support each other. There's a lot invested in making sure that our marketers are exposed to like the best training, best capability, the fact that my team exists to re-support them and keeping that up is how we're making sure that our employees are really at the cutting edge of driving this marketing transformation. For marketers who maybe are like, wow, this is all changing really quickly. What are those like brand fundamentals that they need to hold on to, you know, throughout this kind of transformative process? Yeah, it's funny because every time I do a presentation to a new group in the business about this transformation, I start with a slide of like before I talk about what's changing. Let me tell you what's staying the same because I think you're right. I think it's important for people who maybe have this fear of like, oh gosh, am I becoming irrelevant because I don't know things. It's important for them to be grounded in these fundamentals that you were trained in are not changing and they're still really important. But it's also really important for younger marketers who maybe haven't been exposed to all of that, you know, relentlessly, to be like, you need to have your fundamentals in place. Like, you can't just skip over some of that. You really need to understand these fundamentals. So it's important for everyone to be grounded in what's staying the same. For us, it's first of all, that brand clarity, like really clarity. Like, what does your brand stand for? Like, why is your brand useful in this world? Why is it relevant? What's its tone of voice? How is it going to show up in culture? Like, when you talk about something being on brand off brand, what does that really mean? When you talk about brand authenticity, what does it mean? When a creator might be talking about your brand, what would be right and what would be wrong? And that clarity allows for the consistency. And then that clarity has to be based on a deep meaning. And it really for us all comes down to human insight, a deep, deep insight that can stand at a test of time and that can really bring value to people's lives. So that stays the same. They, those are the brand fundamentals. Plus, we are still trying to reach people. We're trying to still try to get people to discover our brands. They might discover it on an LLM or they might discover it in a supermarket. That can happen. But they're still trying to discover our brands. We still got to expecify people and engage people on why they should even be interested in what our brand is doing. That still stays the same. Just might be that now you're doing it through a creator that you follow talking about, or you might be doing it through an affiliate TikTok shop trying to sell it to you. And then there's the sale. You know, there are many different commerce channels now and we're operating across all of them. But that point where someone actually decides to spend their hard and money on your brand, we need to be able to close that. We need to have the physical availability. We still need to be able to make sure that the conversion is tracked and that we are getting that return and investment across those things. They're the same. And they really are the things that I learned when I started my marketing career. And like I say, how radically changing will radically change? But that what is really, really solid? Yeah, it's interesting. On that note of brand clarity, I feel like sometimes you'll hear brands say, "Oh, we just know it with an O'Brien. What's in tone?" Actually, I think having to explain it to an LLM or to get an A-Build an AI tool is a really good test of can you articulate that? And the thing about AI, if you look at AI discovery, everyone's talking about generative engine optimization, agente commerce, one thing that AI really prioritises when it sources something is consistency. If you're saying different things about your brand in different places across the web, it's not going to serve up your brand in a recommendation or in a commerce opportunity. So yeah, you're right. Like it's really, that's a really tough test is if you have brand consistency is using AI to be back on it. So it's another reason why I love AI because it really is a great mirror to some of the stuff that we should be doing. - Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we were talking at the start about transformation at Unilever not being kind of like a finite project. But I guess when it comes to judging the overall success as a transformation project, is there one kind of metric you will look at to be like, this has been the success? Or is it a cultural thing? How are you going to, you know, judge the success of this year after year? - I would say that even though the transformations ongoing, we have passed it into like certain horizons to help manage this, you know, people's energy through it. And that's being really successful because then you keep giving people these points where they feel rewarded, that they feel that they've achieved it. I think that's important. So always across all horizons that we're working, it's competitive growth. Like that's what we're trying to drive, competitive growth. So that's really the only measure of success that we're focusing on. But of course, you know that you can't achieve that without the right talent, without some of those early indicators along the way telling you that you're going in the right direction, you know, with some of these capabilities proving themselves to drive efficiencies. For example, so you can invest your money better. There's all these other things behind it, but ultimately the measure of success is competitive growth. When you're, you know, adopting kind of new things at pace and you know, we talked a bit about this earlier, they're kind of transforming what are performing bit. But when you're like launching into a new area or testing a new tool, like how do you balance moving at pace versus like actually giving something a chance to bed in an organisation when you're making change quickly, if that makes sense? - I've talked earlier about this like capability for lossty, like it's speed but it's direction. Because if you just have speed and you're jumping from one thing to another, you're right, you never really know if something's going to work or not. And as I said, one of the most difficult things not being distracted by all the different things. So it helps us to have a really clear direction and to be very outcome focused because that stops us going, oh, this is a shiny new toy over here. Let's just go and do that. We're always keeping our eyes and ears open to everything that's happening. But we are very mindful and measured about making sure that everything that we're doing, we're getting actual impact out of it and we're not just doing it for the sake of it. It does mean that we have to be very disciplined in how we do experimentation. So we've really built a lot of skills in that area, which is fantastic because that allows us to move at speed and learn but also not give up on things before you've really got out the best impact from it. - Absolutely. I think we've covered a lot on the transformation as Lena, but I guess is there kind of any takeaways that, you'd want, like I said, there's so much conversation. I think people are really interested in what's happening at Eulie Leighbert at the moment with the transformation. Are there kind of any takeaways that you'd want people to know about, the direction of travel for you guys maybe even some misconceptions about what's going on? - We've touched on it throughout the conversation but that we really feel that the fundamentals of brand and building and marketing haven't changed that the future of marketing for us, lies in creating brands with meaning, brands that have ideas that people want to engage with, people want to carry forward and share. And that is what we've always done really successfully in Eulie Leighbert, why we have brands that are, a legacy brands that are brands that are global at with such scale. And what we're focusing on now is understanding that we want to continue creating that desire, we continue creating that scale, but we really are very clear on the ways of doing that are different to how they were in the past and we're moving very quickly to establish expertise and make sure that we're winning with those new models, whether it's AI, powered platforms, whether it's creators, whether it's different ways of doing media, these are all things that we're really embracing and using to drive our competitor growth. - So, so thank you so much for chatting as we've really interesting to hear more. - No, thank you, great conversation, it's lovely chatting. - Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Marketing Meet podcast. Ahead of the next episode, follow us on Apple, Acast, Spotify or whatever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music)