How TV Producers Can Actually Make Money in Digital

If you work in TV and you're wondering how the hell you actually make money in this new Creator-led economy, listen up. This year, Telecast is launching two major ways to level up your digital first strategy. First, the Telecast Digital Bootcamp. Four intensive training days in central London from the 26th to 31st of March. For producers, executives and development teams who want to understand social video, platform behavior, monetisation, formats, talent, economics and what it really takes to build IP in the digital first world. This is hands-on, practical, led by digital first experts and built for people who need answers now. Find out more at courses.telecast.com. And then there's a second edition of How to Make Money in Digital. A one day industry summit bringing together the sharpest minds in social video, video podcasting, IP, branded content and multi-platform digital publishing. Case studies, studios, creators, platforms, the people shaping where this business is going next. It's on April 21st at 30 Houston Square in London. Get tickets at howto.telecast.com. And here's the key thing. If you book a place on the Telecast Digital Bootcamp, you get free access to the How to Make Money in Digital Event Day worth up to £350. Training and Front Row Insight. Two powerful experiences one clear goal, helping you thrive in the digital first production economy. Check out courses.telecast.com and howto.telecast.com. Or click the links in the episode description. Get ahead in digital in 26 with the Telecast Digital Bootcamp and How to Make Money in Digital. We'll see you there. Hi, I'm Justin Crosby and welcome to Telecast. This episode was recorded live at How to Make Money in Digital in London last year. A room full of producers, founders and commissioners grappling with the same question. How do you actually build sustainable businesses in the digital first world? Across the day, the drop editor Andy Frye spoke to people who aren't theorising about this shift, they're already doing it. From Sam Barcroft on building digital companies with an exit in mind, to Spirit Studios Mac Campion, on why treating digital as a side hustle is the biggest mistake producers can make. We'll also hear from Quinter Studios' Gerrit Keming on scaling documentary audiences globally. Hurst Sam Pearson on commissioning digital first true crime and history. MTV's Amy Parker Williams on brand-led social originals and Ben Doyle from After Party Studios and why talent first thinking changes everything. What links all of these conversations is a very clear message. Digital isn't a bolt on anymore. This is where the audiences are, where businesses have been built, where producers have to get much sharper about IP monetisation and ownership. If you're trying to work out how to make that transition or how to do it better, this episode is a really good place to start. Hope you enjoy the show. Hi, my name's Andy Frye here at the Telecast, how to make money in digital then with Sam Barcroft, founder of Creative Hill and prior to that Barcroft TV. Sam, lovely to see you. You kicked off the day for us with a really interesting session about your experiences. Can you kind of summarise the key messages you were trying to get across in that? So thanks nice to see you Andy. I suppose the key message I was trying to get across was that if you're an entrepreneur in the digital video space you really got to think about your end game right the way through building your business. So if you don't know where you want to get to, you're going to end up going down lots of different dead ends and bad places. So it's really about focusing on the outcome that you want to build from your endeavours in the digital video space. So I talked with about how to sell your company because in the end I think most digital video entrepreneurs get so long in the tooth quickly that often they want to sell their business and so it's really trying to help people to understand how the five steps towards selling your digital business. Yeah, your five steps are really interesting because they kind of broke into some creative messaging and some commercial messaging and this idea of your superpower and the importance of going after a niche which I guess that's kind of a slightly different story to what it would have been when you started out wouldn't it? But tell us about why it's important to go after a niche. Well basically the digital video ecosystem has exploded to the point that there's 500 hours of TV put up onto YouTube every minute of the day and so to find audiences you can't try and compete with the incumbent big end's tamer brands you really have to build a community now and actually it's much easier to build a small, highly engaged community right now across these platforms and it is to reach millions of people every day especially when you're starting and you actually build a better community because they're willing to spend money with you rather than just to watch the video so I think it makes much more sense for people to narrow down to one thing that they think is an unmet need on a platform and to really try and explode into an unmet need to actually solve a real problem online. And it sounded like that unmet need if it's a passion if it's your fairy tale as you put it that's even stronger isn't it because that I guess you come across as more authentic. Yeah you definitely gonna shine if you're talking about something you love. You're also gonna have much deeper knowledge which means your videos are gonna run out of steam and thirdly people can just tell if you're trying to build a community they'll know whether you're one of them or not and so if you go deep into those spaces also building on YouTube and digital takes time these days so you have to be able to stick with it that's literally the number one rule is stick with it and if you love something you're much more likely to stick with it than if it's something that you're not that bothered about. Another of your interesting points about firing yourself and I suppose that got into the thorny issue of selling the company you built it it's time to sell it so explain the fire yourself concept. So I think if you're building a business that is fit to sell you can't be a bottleneck within that business as an individual within that team or within that process so I always encourage people to figure out how they can build long-lasting systems and processes so that if you pull them out of it pull the founder out of the business the business still does really well. So after a certain amount of time you need a succession plan you need to build a business around systems and procedures and ways of doing things rather than just an individual bit of talent or hard work. Okay so now creatorville tell us a little bit about what creatorville is for people who don't know. There's a small business that is run by me that exists to help business leaders in the media space figure out their unique strategy so I work one-on-one with business leaders and they're sometimes their leadership teams to figure out exactly how they can get fantastic success in the digital world and it's really fascinating I find it brilliant I work really well with people who are trying to figure out some really tricky problems it keeps me excited because no problem no two companies are the same problems can feel very big but when you share them they can then feel quite manageable so I love to help people transform from being bogged down by a million and one different challenges into having a really clear plan about how they're going to achieve their own objectives and coaching people through that over a number of sessions is something that I love and that often brings really fantastic results for those people. So finally I know you had to run away for some of the day to deliver a module did you manage to come back and see some stuff towards the end of the day and if so any particular highlights for you. So massive highlight for me was watching Tom Gosevin from Strongwatch Studios big fan of Tom's his decks are something to behold you know I can see why they win a lot of business because his sales presentation was off the charts but also he's a brilliant thinker Tom he really understands models and he understands how to articulate these different ways of working and his work on whether we need development producers anymore just was fascinating to me the way that Strongwatch give one person responsibility for the idea for a show developing it pitching it and then making it and delivering it and even directing it on the day and then worrying about the distribution that is a really really brilliant new kind of fully verticalised model. I think is something we all need to think about you know is that an optimum way of making premium shows for YouTube in a really sensible scalable model I thought that was genius yeah and I love what he had to say about iteration about some of the things they learned during the course of that process the way they change their content. Yeah I mean like that is the classic test and learn methodology you know you're getting all this data within seconds of uploading a video you can see what's working on what is and their producers actually having the responsibility of not just coming up with the idea for the show but actually having to do those tweaks in the distribution and delivery I think that's something that a lot of people could scale from and learn from it might be a model that's adopted I would imagine by another set of studios as well as Strongwatch. Brilliant Sam lovely to talk to you and thanks for your time. Thanks Andy take care. I'm with Garrett Kemming of well the founder and managing director of Quinter Studios who's been to a lot of our events been very supportive of the events over the years. Tell us a bit about Quinter's tell us why your company which started out in more traditional media is interested in this digital first space. Well I mean we are meanwhile one of the biggest independent documentary channel networks on YouTube Facebook and Snapchat and this is just our home tour that would say meanwhile After TV, we did a very successful career as a company in TV, but then we saw the opportunity to pivot into digital at a very early stage. And we saw a market that was nascent, but that where we could grow with the market, that was very interesting. And actually events like today and actually the market today shows us that we did the right move. That's going to ask you out. Is it your sense that the market is now catching up with your vision that you're beginning to see that hybridisation that we've talked about for years? Absolutely. I mean, when we started, people and content owners were laughing at us when we asked them for content. But today, I mean, we saw that YouTube is the biggest TV platform in the world, right? As a sense of where the TV broadcasts that on YouTube, so to say. Just briefly gives a sense of the kind of programming you do. So if people wanted to know what sort of content you're focusing on, what would you pick out? Where everything that is unscripted content is our home turf, from business related to nature, to history, to ancient history, to broad science and engineering, everything that is informative content that comes from TV or is targeting a very, let's say, digital audience is what we're doing. One question I've been thinking about during the course of the day. How much have you been able to take your content out into different languages? Are there opportunities now for it to be more than English speaking for you to use maybe AI tools or other kinds of tools to make it bespoke for different markets? Yeah, we're working four languages mainly, which is English, German, French and Spanish. Our problem was that our content is like on a very high quality and our audience was expecting very high quality dubbing, so languages. So we couldn't turn into AI for a long time. For the last, let's say, 12 months, let's say 18 months, a hybrid model of AI with humans behind it that works me well, makes it a lot more easy. Brilliant. Okay, so you've been here all day, any particular highlights, any sessions that you particularly enjoyed or any messages that came through that you thought were interesting? Ah, good question. I mean, there was a lot of education, it felt like there was a lot of education for people that want to get into their business and we are in this business, so there was not so much new stuff, but I mean, being out there with all these creative people in the industry is always amazing because you always get back with five, ten great ideas and inspirations of how you can pivot your projects that you can do or how you can pivot your business. Well, I mean, five of them always turn out to be bullshit after you sleep and I'd over it, but a lot of them are really good and it's always good to connect. But I think one really interesting theme is this idea of revenue diversification, so we've had people today selling their photos, launching auction platforms, all kinds of different ways of taking your community and making revenue. Is that something that from your perspective, from your business model that you might be able to do as well? I mean, can you see yourself doing that, going into different kind of areas that may be a non-traditional? Yeah, definitely. We're working on this very much because so, you know, working with TV content mainly and especially because we work in a global territory or let's say, in global territories. Many of them are non-holstriven, so that means we don't have a face attached to that. So that means it's a very much a TV business, so content first and that makes the money. When it comes to brand partnerships, products behind this, that is very reliant on having a face attached to it, which we don't have, but we pivot into this to diversify our revenue streams. That's an important thing individually, definitely. Brilliant, Garrett, we'll lovely to talk to you and hopefully see you at the digital content forum later in the year. Certainly. Brilliant. Thanks a lot. I'm here with Matt Campion, co-founder of Spirit Studios. Matt, lovely to be with you. You've just come off the stage, given as a really interesting presentation. Can you distill it for us? Tell us what you're attempting to get across in that piece. Yeah, well, what I was trying to do was get across the fact that I think it's time that people need to move quickly, move into digital. And needs to be able to create a multi-platform business with they're going to survive. I think we can only see the trends, things like the BBC this week, announcing that they're killing off $150 million of their budget. We're only going to see that times get more and more difficult. And I think whilst we all want to continue creating commission content, because that's what we've sort of been brought up to do, actually, we've got to move into a new world where we become the commissioner of the broadcast of the producer ourselves and find this new way of working. You guys at Spirit, you've been doing that for 10 years. There's very much been part of your modus operandi. If you had to give advice to people who are a bit nervous about it, who haven't really started the journey, what is the key to being able to make that transition? Do you know, I get asked this question so many times. You've got to treat it like a side hustle. I think the way you're going to think like a creator. I think we've always been like that. You know, right from the get-go, you've got to be entrepreneurial. And you've got to just get going. You can't, you know, whether it's money, whatever's holding you back, stop it, just do it. Screw it, let's do it. It's my motto. It was interesting. You showed us a really interesting example of a mistake you made, you know, the 20 question thing. Everyone today has talked about mistakes, but mistakes shouldn't be seen as mistakes. Should they should be seen as test and learn? 100%. I, you know, I mean, I suppose I love self-development, but it's just you're failing forwards. I know that's a cliche, but you really are. I don't, you know, the word fail, we use it to create drama in what we're talking about, but really it's a learning curve. It's the next notch on your way up. And it's a hurdle. Once you've got over that hurdle, you know, you'll get over it. I think going back to your last question, people give up to easily. You can't give up. This is something that once you start, you've got to keep the machine going. Brilliant. Last question, you talked to about the line whisperer. Give us a sense of why the line whisperer has worked. What is at the core of that that's really, you know, interested audiences? The line whisperer, just two things that I think work for the brand. One is its mission and purpose. I think it connects with people. It's on a mission to save the plight of lines. When we first started this, there was only 20,000 lines left in the world. That's now increased, the population's increased, the numbers are getting either way, but again, the climate change is now something that we weren't facing ten years ago on the channel. And now there's, you know, there's that, that, that, that, that, that lines could be extinct by 2050. The other thing I would say is that we're delivering natural history in a way that you don't see anywhere else. We're doing it up close and personal. We're even putting, like, go pros and things on the lines and, and doing things like allowing the viewer to go on a, on a hunt and a kill with them. You know, it's, it's, we're, we're getting, we're using technology and kit to get to places that have never been similar for. Actually, just to extrapolate from that, your session was about building a multi-platform powerhouse. And I guess that that notion of purpose is something you've taken into your other work, isn't it? Absolutely. Uh, uh, tagline at spirit is that we don't just create content. We create content with spirit. You know, we're about impacting lives to the better, inspiring, entertaining. We also have our own side hustle, which was a mental health platform called I Am Whole. And I am all, it's about using pop culture in a digital world to challenge the stigma surrounding mental health and to make a difference in the world. But we do it through comedy, we do it through music, concerts, we do it through documentary, you know, I think, as a business, we're an entertainment business. So let's entertain people. But also, I think it's more powerful when you've got end to same with purpose. Brilliant. Mac Ampian, Spirit Studios. Thank you for your time. Thank you, mate. I'm here with Sam Pearson from Herst Networks. Emia, Sam, tell us a little bit more about your role at Herst. So my role at Herst Networks is quite multifaceted. So I am the head of short form commissioning within the programming team. I also sit within the kind of marketing team, like from a little bit, kind of looking at the creative production, paid media, the organic social media production. Basically anything that Herst Networks does, there's production focused on commission from a digital first perspective, social media first, as my fingerprints on it. Brilliant. So you've just come off a really interesting session with a bunch of digital commissioners. If you had to provide a bit more color in terms of shows, you've commissioned projects you've worked on, could you pick out a couple of examples? Absolutely, yeah. I mean, so one that isn't out yet, but is coming up called History Crush. I'm really excited about. So that is with a TikTok and Instagram creator called Kate Kennedy, she's called History Gossip online. She has a really kind of fresh, exciting new take on history communication. Very, very different. I am not going to try and imitate it because I'll do it very, very poor justice. I can only kind of recommend that you go and find her and look at it yourself. She's got this, she comes out from a historical perspective, she's got all of the academic qualifications, but it's coming from a community perspective and attainment focused, but it gives you that real historical insight at the same time. I'm really excited about that one. That's coming out at the end of May. One that we've just done, the words come out of the last year, unbreakable. Survivor stories, real value proposition for me in terms of getting unheard, marginalized, misunderstood stories out to a true crime audience. You're really challenging, watch and listen, it went out as a midform series and as an audio podcast. That one for me is incredibly powerful because it's doing a job which really represents to me why true crime is important as a genre. It's not just about entertainment, which is obviously what the TV industry is kind of like, as hard from a base perspective is what it's all about. Unbreakable does the value proposition as well and really kind of demonstrates why we should be doing things like true crime and why we should be commissioning and producing in this space to really make sure that the contributors that we got in on that series can really kind of make sure they're sharing their stories. I mean, in there we had a female genital mutilation survivor talking about their experiences and their road to what's a recovery afterwards. We had a survivor of domestic abuse, a survivor of gangland violence, real kind of like hard hitting, challenging conversations. And that kind of feeling you were talking about your approach to true crime, it's about victim centric, victim support, kind of stories, isn't it? For sure. I mean, as a brand, linear space, digital focus, we have very victim centric, we're very sensitive in our approach, we always get incredibly rewarding feedback from the contributors and the people that we work with, the production companies that we work with, about how we demonstrate and represent our stories. And that is kind of fundamental and that are hard of our brand and how we want to kind of position ourselves across all frontiers that we kind of go into. And that is exactly the same in the digital space as well. What we have as an opportunity within the social media space is a community focused opportunity where we can think about what our TikTok creators, podcasters doing in from a community perspective. And that is, you know, tonally, thematically challenging norms of like, how you can be funny alongside talking about some really kind of sensitive and challenging cases, how you can kind of be light-hearted, have different styles of conversations. For us, that's a really interesting opportunity and a really interesting challenge in terms of how we can kind of go into some of those kind of conversations and create some productions and commissions that sit within that space. For us, what we don't want to be doing is creating stuff that goes too far, pushes too far beyond the borders. But what we want to do is really can't test the areas and the then diagram of what traditional true crime looks like from a TV broadcaster, but stays true to our kind of principles. So outside history and true crime, are there any other sweet spots, particularly genres you're interested in? Wanna get ahead in digital first content? The drop is the go-to newsletter for industry professionals delivering insider news, trends and insights straight to your inbox. Navigate the fast-changing landscape of digital first production, distribution and monetization. Sign up now for free at dropmedia.co.uk and stay informed with the drop. Well, I mean, they are sweet spots. They are our genres. I would say true crime is a little bit harder to get beyond in terms of a genre, because it is, we are essentially a little bit more kind of traditional in terms of our mindset, although the approach and storytelling approach can be a little bit more kind of thematically different so I can standard approach in a linear. I think history is the one that we can be a little bit more playful with, because essentially every story has an element of history, has the past ingrained within it. I think for us it is much more interesting to look at how we can tell interesting historical stories or stories about the past in a very different way than we normally would do on a more mainstream history, broadcaster or mainstream history channel. And so for us that might be thinking about how a comedy ends broadcaster or channel would do it or looking at shiny floor or panel show formats or it might be more investigative documentary style approaches or reality approaches. And so for us it is really testing the boundaries from a genre perspective how you can tell historical stories. That to me is really, really interesting because it could be so much more playful. Brilliant, Sam, final question. In terms of how a producer approaches you, what do you want them to do when they come to you? I want them to come with a very top line. I don't want loads of dreams of documentation. I don't want multi-page treatments. I don't want anyone to feel like they're wasting their time if we get to a quick no. I really want straight to the core of the idea. Could be a paragraph, could be a one-pager. I want the hook first. That's to me is the core principle. We've got to start with that. It's not a contract that we're signing on that. We don't need to necessarily deliver that. We've got to re-room for surprise when we get to production and that kind of thing. But for me it's really about that hook. How are we going to be doing something that's new, interesting, innovative, from a format perspective? Going to be new and interesting in terms of the talent that we work with and how we develop new talent. But it's got to start with our hook. What is that new and interesting kind of root in for us? Brilliant. Sam Pearson, lovely to speak to you. And thanks for coming to the event. Love to speak to you guys. I'm here with Amy Parker, Williams from MTV. Amy, lovely to meet you. Can you tell us a little bit about what you do at MTV? Yes, so I am the director of commissioning. So I guess it's my job to curate and create compelling original content and build fantastic experiences across all of our social platforms. I also manage our in-house production team made up of talented, super, super talented producers, editors, production staff, and some of our originals every last couple of years have been made by them. Brilliant. So color the story for us a little bit. Tell us what kind of stuff you've commissioned. Yes, so a couple of things. MTV Faces, which is our mental health vocastic series, which tackles timely, topical taboo issues. The first series we explored grief with Ashley Kane. Second series which came out last year was on ADHD. We've driven Stevens as the host. And we've got a new one coming out fairly soon. Brilliant. So expand a little bit for us. You did a really good job in the session of telling us what you're looking for. What is your sweet spot? Sweet spot is brand-telling at the helm of societal issues. So what important conversations need to be discussed? There aren't being discussed enough in the mainstream media. That's what we want to do. And how do you merge that with Paramount's iconic IP? So if you had to give a little bit of guidance to producers about that, how to approach you, the way to get to you, what would you suggest? Drop me a line and bring me on at the earlier stage, I would say, just to make sure that it has MTV and Comedy Central in mind from inception. I'm here with Ben Doyle, aka Rubberduck. And you've just finished a session talking about your experiences in the business. Tell us a little bit about the themes, the key themes that you were talking about. Yeah, so after my studios, I found it with a YouTuber. So all of my work I've done over the last decade has featured talent in some way, shape or form. As it was just a conversation really about how that completely changes the dynamic of how you approach creative because you have to write the creative with the talent in mind. It's not come up with the idea of drops in talent and it has to come up with an idea around the talent. So the conversation really was about how do we approach that? How do we write ideas? How do we make our shoots perfect for what the talent are used to receiving and make content that sits really well on the platform and doesn't feel like coming onto a platform that we don't belong on. Do you think sometimes traditional producers make a mistake of trying to impose ideas on the talent rather than letting the talent flow a little bit? I think that basically the model has never changed on YouTube really since day one. We're just having to go around it. It's always been about someone having some fun and that being recorded. And it feeling too structured suffocates it. And that's always been the truth since back in the day. The beauty of YouTube is that it has to be free flow and it has to be whatever's going on, that's why ideas react into it constantly. And that's why the brain of a YouTuber is mad because they are constantly just reacting to what's going on in front of them. And I think the job of a traditional broadcast to come into space is to be like, how do we make that scenario possible? How do we make it so that it's not here's an auto-Q and a script? But here's the beat, here's what we're trying to hit, here's what we're trying to get across and be yourself. Because ultimately that's what the audience are buying into. After parties been around probably around 10 years, but you've had a particularly good two or three years, you've really kind of grown in stature and recognition. What you've been doing recently is as a studio to push yourselves forward. Yeah, I think that, so we've been going, we've been going since 2016. And I think that is interesting seeing the industry grow up through that time, like in the early days that we were going into meetings, people didn't really understand this space. And I think so we've grown with everyone. And I think that the industry has turned a attention on to the space that we're in. For us, the focus is always, how do we make the best content that the audience want to watch? Like, that is the thing that goes for our mind. Has always been that, is how do we make something that the platform's going to receive well, the audience are going to receive well, and keep iterating? I think it's fine to make a mistake. Go and make something and can be like, "Oh, that episode didn't do as well as the last one." The beauty of digital is that you can go and change it. We can go and take a sudden right turn and something can be like, "Let's bring in some new talent. Let's change the format slightly." And so I guess I've just seen the industry accept it more and more. And when he's come into that part of the world, and therefore better and bigger stuff is getting made. And people are more focused on it. It was not an after-fort anymore. It's not like, "Let's make this TV show and then make some support in whatever the soulful team." It's very much like, "How do we make something that is serving this audience where they are?" And with what they want to receive. Because the audience are hungry for content. Like, they're watching this stuff for hours and hours and hours. So it would be criminal to miss the opportunity of not feeding that desire from them. Yeah, I think one of the key themes of today's event, this kind of idea of how to make money in digital, is of people who've perhaps been working at massive TV budgets, or bigger TV budgets, working at how to be cost-effective and working this world. If you had to kind of give some advice on how you still create premium content, compelling content at a different budget level and be successful, what would you say to people? I say that if you want to make premium content, but not completely miss the mark on it, is that you have to think about what the audience are looking for, which is to be entertained and not make crazy set designs that they don't care about. They don't want to say, see what we see on Saturday night TV level sets because they're like, "Oh, this is structured, this is fabricated." So it's playing within that. It's being like, "Okay, I don't need to do a crazy set design. I actually need to focus more on my money and time and effort on these certain things that are about the research up front and making sure that the episode is great or that interview series is great or that the entertainment value is there and that we're understanding. You'll get so much more value out of understanding the law around it and the memes and the culture. That's where the value is. They don't care about whether it's shot on a big shiny floor, studio or crazy cinematic production. They care about am I watching something that feels like that person that is on the screen has made it or been a part of it. And so I think when it comes to budgets, we've never seen those TV budgets, right? We've never been dealing in the millions. It's always hundreds of thousands. So it's about looking at what we've got and being like, "Let's not shoot for Saturday night TV shiny floor and completely miss it." And also we're missing the UGC, so we're kind of neither, is that you need to find the sweet spot and then become known for it and just double down and be like, "This is our style and this is and keep doing the same thing." I think audience is a super sensitive as well to complete changes. So if you've got a channel that one minute is putting out super glossy stuff and then suddenly goes like, really homemade, that and then back to glossy, that's confusing for the audience. I think you need to pick. This is what the world we're in and run with it. Final question. So if you are able to talk about it, what are you working on right now? So what's happening for you day to day right now? So exciting projects right now. We're in the middle of season two of Sky Sports scenes. This series we do for them. And we're talking to lots of different commissioners and brands about branding and same stuff. Like lots of the work is definitely going in that direction. Lots of people being like, "How do we go and interpret our brand or our platform in a different way and space and use talent to make content that's going to cut through with the audience?" And so lots of the projects are kind of more in that space. They're not tons that I could talk about. Well, my PR is in here, so I don't know. But yeah, I think like for me the most exciting thing is that I'm seeing lots more appetite for like this type of content that the audience really want to see. I think for years I would get briefed in and be like, "Oh, like they don't want no one wants that." And then it would be like trying to turn that around. But now I'm seeing lots of briefs, so I'm like, "The audience do want that. That's catering into it." So I think that's the encouraging thing. I'm seeing more and more stuff that I think the audience are going to love. Brilliant. Ben Doyle, after party studios. Thanks for your time. Thank you very much. You've been listening to highlights from How to Make Money in Digital. Recorded live in London in 2025. And if what you've heard here resonates, the good news is we're doing it all again. How to make money in digital returns on April 21st at 30 Euston Square in London. Bringing together producers, platform studios, creators and people from right across the digital first spectrum for a full day focused on the practical realities of building and monetising digital first businesses. This isn't about theory or hype, it's about what's working right now, what isn't and how production companies can adapt their models for a market that's moving fast. Tickets and full details are available now at howto.tallicast.com. That's howto.tallicast.com. For now, thanks for listening to How to Make Money in Digital. We'll see you next week and stay safe.