How to win hearts and minds as a quality leader, with Ashley Preston.

Welcome to another episode of Let's Talk Quality, the podcast. My name is Hemish Alanga Ratney and since 2023 I've been interviewing some of the most talented and well-respected quality leaders in the farmer and biotech industry to learn how they got to where they are now. This season is all about our guests and their journeys. Why they go into science, how they go into quality, the biggest challenges in greatest lands and the highs and lows along the way. Every week I'll be bringing you a new guest with the purpose of inspiring the next generation of quality leaders. Welcome to season three. I hope you've enjoyed the show. Hi all. Welcome back to another episode of Let's Talk Quality, the podcast. Today I'm joined by Ashley Preston. Ashley is the SVP of Regulatory End Quality at Blossom Hill therapeutics. I really want to speak with Ashley because he spent most of his leadership career in regulatory affairs and he took on his first quality leadership role in 2019. So as a result he's really had to rely on his core leadership skills, his softer skills, his ability to communicate, his ability to build trust and really understand the people that he's both leading and recording up to. So we speak a lot about the role that quality plays in industry, the importance of quality and how quality leaders can really drive the value and get quality of a better seat at a table. So this is a really good episode to listen to for anyone looking to improve their leadership skills, some practical, practical tips on how to build better relationships with your people and the people around you and how to really drive quality across the business and across the industry. So let's get into it. Hi Ashley. Welcome to Let's Talk Quality. How you doing? Doing well. Thanks for having me. No problem. My pleasure. Actually I've given you a very brief introduction but if you could give the listeners and viewers a just a really quick high level overview of who you are and what you're doing and then we can we can get into it after that. I'm Ashley Preston and currently heading regulatory quality and medical writing at Boston Hill therapeutics. Excellent. And you're based in Boston. You're up in Melbourne. Yes. Yeah. How long have you been in Boston now? So I spent ten years in Boston so far and six years before that in Singapore. So it's been a bit of a world to it. Yeah. Well you made it made it east gradually. Yes. Okay well look tell us just take us back to the beginning. You've had an interesting career path starting in the regulatory space and moving into quality. So I'm really keen just to understand the why you made the shift from from rig to quality. And I suppose like what's what's that given you as a quality leader. Let's start with the beginning then. How did you initially get into science? How did that evolve into regulatory? Sure, sure. Wow. Go way back. So I was originally interested in science during high school and then went to Monash University in Melbourne in Australia where I grew up and a bachelor of science. And during that it's sort of the the natural path is to continue in science, continue into a PhD program. So I did a PhD program in pharmacology and actually enrolled through RMIT University and also and during my PhD I realized that I really enjoyed science but I didn't want to be at the bench. So you know I started looking at different opportunities that I could take out once I finished my PhD in industry and regulatory stood out to me. I always also had an interest in kind of law and the legal aspects of drug development and so that was a a beautiful fit and I submitted my thesis and in the end of 2023 and then early 24 I was on the phone to recruiters and happens to land a job at GSK in regulatory affairs. So I built my career from there being predominantly regulatory and then thinking about your question how did I end up also having quality. So it's more of an evolution of sorts really. So by the time my first four A into quality related aspects I suppose of drug development was my role when I moved to the U.S. I took on a role at EMD Serena which was regulatory science process compliance and training and you can see their process compliance training element was the quality related aspects of the operations for the regulatory organization at EMD and the regular organization EMD is about 600 people. So all the SOPs of quality management system for that division but was a responsibility of my team there. So it gave me a four A into quality in addition to that of course as you know regulatory quality quite into related and synergistic. So I'd always been had exposure to compliance and sort of quality related elements in my regulatory career but it wasn't until I joined Siros and pharmaceuticals in 2018 as head of regulatory and then there was an opportunity and that's really the how I landed was just being given the opportunity to take on more responsibilities to build my repertoire if you like an expertise and by boss at the time said listen we need someone to lead quality in this organization. Would you be willing to take that on as part of your your umbrella of functions to relate it to regulatory and we think you could do you know do it justice and I said okay on one condition that I'm able to hire experts in the detail to then enable them to do their best work and I can use what I know to oversee what's happening and learn as I go if you like in the quality space so no one has to be dangerous yes and it's been been quite a ride and from there I mean I love it because it there's always something else to learn I mean I say every day is a school day and so you know there's always something else to learn and and I really enjoy thinking through problems and really to me quality is a lot of a lot of again mapping our problems thinking through how you're going to solve that problem which is a tune with regulatory as well kind of synergistic. Yeah what what would the characteristics do you think from a sort of a personality a leadership perspective that your boss saw in you who thought and it made him think right this actually can lead quality as well I appreciate there may be some sort of situational reasons for it but at the same time there's a there's a shift in in leadership stuff you didn't have the technical expertise so I'm assuming this was all about you as a person you as a leader so what do you think made it in terms of your attributes why did they make it you know give you that opportunity. Yeah that's a good question I believe that it's you're right it was we were in need of quality leadership within the organization we had some some folks working quality and we needed some to build that that complement of strength I would think that what I brought with me was an ability to think through problems logically to sort of stress test ideas and to to find the best solution understanding that and maybe maybe you'd already heard me talk previously about regulatory affairs people used to think regulatory was this was the policeman with the stop sign you can't tell me everyone in the function in the in the other functions what they can't do really I see regulatory and quality to be honest as the GPS because there's always a way to get to where you want to be the responsibility if you like of regulatory qualities to find the most efficient path in a compliant way to get to the goal that we're looking for a given program or an organization and so I would think that it's that ability to bring people together to find a solution and not not necessarily panic at the first side of you know a deviation or you know some some problem just breaking apart think through the steps that you need to solve that problem because you know even the agencies know that nobody's perfect we work in a human system and so long as you can show appropriate oversight and appropriate mechanisms by which you can enforce compliance and ensure compliance then you're okay so tell me about the early days of you taking on quality then you're obviously overseeing regulatory and quality why did you have to learn from so that the yes so my my first day taking on quality that's a learn number one how to do a write a temperature excursion memo lit quite literally if we we needed it for our computer materials but beyond that it was really really learning about quality culture and and the quality mindset and how to propagate that through the organization and then really honing my what I'd already understood from sort of being on the periphery of quality in my regulatory career and really putting more meat on the bones of that knowledge so you know I knew about GCP I done GCP training but I'd never actually been involved in dealing with GCP issues in any death and so it was just additive to that so I knew okay GCP these are the outline of GCP I've trained on it but what happens when a site does X Y and Z and what do we do to to remediate that or how does an audit work and you know then you know how do you how do you actually execute on an audit I'd seen the reports I dealt with it from a regulatory perspective but the mechanics of that and understanding how to think through that and then the quality planning for an organization particularly coming into taking on quality in a small biotech is not just the execution of quality activities but the quality strategy and implementing that and thinking through what is in isn't achievable in a small company environment and what's what's a reasonable risk tolerance for a small company versus a large company those type of things where you you have to also engage not only with the people doing the work but also with senior leadership to bring them along for the ride in terms of quality oversight from that total leadership perspective yeah yeah so you've you've been in that role you obviously brought in some experts to help you on that journey what would you say your almost super power is now so as a as a quality leader leading both quality and reg now in your role what do you see as your strengths I think being able to ask the right questions and sort of stress test and idea I think through all the different scenarios or to try to try to mitigate risks and mitigate outcomes as much as possible or negative outcomes so thinking through okay this is our quality problem there are five different ways to solve it how do we how do we evaluate those five different ways what are the pros and cons of each what does that do to out what are the risks of each what could be the outcome upon inspection and how would we mitigate that and then try to to drive the team to sort of negotiate amongst themselves and and you know think through what is the best strategy to take in the broader scheme of things in the broader picture of of the the total company environment what can we afford to do and what what level of risk can we afford to take as an organization and then being able to communicate that to different audiences of different levels of understanding of the technical aspects of quality yeah from senior leadership onwards it's really about the cultural pieces that I think so yeah there's no way I can make up the time you know I haven't seen my whole career in quality so from a technical perspective I can only learn as much like and learn in the time I've had you know been in responsible for quality that's why those those technical aspects can you know are critical to success yeah and then being able to to engage with them and and have a sort of healthy debate have a different lens also that's another another piece I'm coming it from a totally different perspective then then most coming into quality and that can help because I don't necessarily have preconceived ideas on what should or shouldn't happen and yeah and I just even asked the dumb questions that's still still gets us somewhere yeah yeah well that's exactly exactly yeah you're you're coming in with a fresh perspective and they preconceived notions before you got into quality then right what did you how did you perceive quality as a regulatory leader obviously closely linked but what was your perception of quality yeah that's a good question I would say predominantly process focused and compliance focused sort of the the enforcement end and the and the process end and that was probably also driven by my prior experience in having to manage SOPs and quality system for the regulatory organization that was my engagement with the quality folks in general that was on process and and the end result of compliance but the big the big learning for me was the upstream culture quality as a quality by design if you like in trying to infuse a quality mindset into everything that we do from the early stage to then lead to better outcomes at the end of the day and then going into quality then we you had those those that sort of process and systems was your perception of quality you've then been able to bring in your own leadership style into that cultural piece you then bring in technical expertise underneath you in that position there that's a challenging role because there's potential pushback that you're going to get from the so-called experts or technical experts how do you manage but there's a that's a really tough potentially a tough environment to navigate right from a leadership perspective so how do you how do you manage pushback from people that are experts when you don't have the same level of quality expertise has the leader and how do you handle that sort of those debates yeah yeah are you handled in this in really is being the same way that you handle a debate with even my regulatory folks I try to hire the smartest people I can find the best experience that I can find across any function and then as the leader you give them the environment to do their best work let them have at it and help them to stress test ideas and navigate and remove roadblocks sort of internally and externally as much as possible and so in a in a quality sense I would sit around with with the the technical experts in my team and we could debate a particular issue and I would be trying to bring them along and teach them sort of the negotiation tactics and the and the big picture thinking of for the the organization and how this fits within the development scheme and what is isn't as possible and they would bring and teach me the technical aspects and we would we would melt them together and it's really about the approach if you do take it as a partnership and that's how I that's how I work with all of my team on a particular issue on you know day-to-day work we're partners in that yes I'm the boss or the head of a group and ultimately there was some decision that I have to just make based on on the evidence I see before me but by and large at least my philosophy is that we should empower the team of experts to make their decisions those decisions wherever possible within within certain you know sort of guardrails if you like and then that that empowers them and and they are ultimately best placed or at least to make a strong recommendation for a particular path which we then test out together and then if I have to push that up the chain for approval so be it we do so when we do so together yeah yeah you mean you use that word empowerment there a couple of times and it's it's very much about your partnership and the relationships that you've had to forge so I'm guessing in that early stage with especially with the quality focus it was a lot of relationship building and getting to sort of win hearts and minds I mean to it yes yes it is at a fundamental level I'd worked with a couple of folks in my regulatory rivals there for almost a year before I took on quality so we had we had the personal report and sort of professional relationship before I stepped into that role to lead quality so I think they knew how I operated anyway and that's how I operate with everyone it's mainly not to forget that we're also in that we're not only there to do the work but we're there to build the next generation of leaders in any functionality regulatory otherwise and so what the best we can do is to like you say empower them and give them the skills to take on that leadership role and surpass us eventually yeah so to talk to us about that those those early years and how that your quality leadership career has evolved since getting that first role then what what's the how's the path looked yeah so a first role taking it on at at Siros building the quality system for them and and also it's it's at a time when when a lot of fundamental quality elements needed to be built the day-to-day compliance work was being done but we needed to implement an EDMS for instance an LMS QMS system so implementing a system implementing a number of additional process you know SOPE's policies that are fundamental and at that time we were then gearing up from phase two into pivotal phase three studies towards my time there we were gearing up for inspection so we were anticipating fire in the NDA so a lot of inspection readiness making sure that we had all our pieces in place at the both at the site level at the at the company level and our contract manufacturers and so on so that at any time after we fired that NDA we would be ready for inspection and that in itself is a huge task that alone the ongoing quality work and from there I was able to then translate that into my role at Blossom Hill which is then in a similar position so we we have two clinical programs in phase one and so we're thinking about setting up quality setting up a quality culture and quality systems and so it's again sort of another another building process on which quite honestly I enjoy that the I enjoy the building the team building company building and system building aspect of my role so it's it's a fun time so let's talk about that then that whole building system something you you thrive on by the sounds of it you do have a going into a company now do you almost have a playbook around how do you how are you go about things some key elements for us more company I mean one of the things that is often missed is the the leadership quality oversight the quality management review which is a requirement in the rig so you you have to set up some system by which the senior leadership of the organization has appropriate oversight of quality making sure that they're not bogged down with the bureaucracy of it and not bogged down with the detail but having enough information to legitimately be have appropriate oversight come and come inspection and so setting up those systems and also bringing the company around to thinking about quality as a partner at the table so often enough you'll find quality is someone they go to when they have a problem rather than quality having a seat at the table on the development team for instance so I'm a big proponent of that so you bring quality along to the development team and they're able to give input on various different topics you know from a from a pure quality mindset perspective as well as the technical GCP and GMP perspectives and I think that allows you to mitigate risks early earlier than you would so you you know you bring that in bring that mindset in bring that resource to the development team and they're able to contribute and sort of head off potential risk downstream much earlier than you would have if you didn't have them there and that works out better for everybody it's less cumbersome you reduce your risk and you increase your compliance across the board for both GMP and GCP yeah yeah so your current setup you mentioned there quality having a seat at the table yes why how like what that's obviously that's really important there's not in smaller biotech it's it's probably slightly easier but you look at a lot of the bigger organizations there's very few chief quality offices in positions in comparison to other functions yes why do you think why do you think that is do you think that's a problem or do you think that a year fine where it sits generally speaking I think when you when you think about the the traditional C-suite you don't necessarily think about chief quality officer or chief regulatory officer chief Regan quality together you know that that C-suite role with that with that functional expertise and I think it's it's a gap it is a gap and we do see it more often now it was starting in the last probably five to five to ten years I guess we've seen an increase you know chief regulatory offices chief quality offices at small and large companies and I hope that that is the result of recognition of the of the importance strategically of regulatory quality to the the outcomes of the of the organization as a business because it's it's critical and everything we do is regulated so it stands the reason that quality and regulatory are critical to every step of the way from discovery through to to being on the market and you know life cycle management so I think that that's I'm glad to see that that happen I think there's a lot more we can do to drive that I think from recognition from the the senior management of companies but also from the professionals working in quality and regulatory to really have that company mindset as well that that total development and total business mindset and I think from both ends if we have greater recognition from senior management and greater push and drive to be involved in those type of conversations from the operators in those functions I think the more of that happening in the future but I think it's critical because that the the regulatory and quality compliance pathway for a molecule is is a huge component of its value to the organization whether it's for transactions or ultimately for commercialization yeah I agree I mean why do you think it is though what what what's there's obvious answers in the sense of you know quality being like you said earlier and just systems and processes but why do you think that quality specifically hasn't had that seat at the table and and it's only been in the sort of last five ten years where you've seen more of those chief quality officer positions or maybe a chief Reagan quality officer together yeah what what what the reason for and why do you think it shifted over the last five ten years I think ultimately the first thought for for investors for boards for for leadership teams is about the science the clinical aspect and the finances because you need to have something that works scientifically that works in the clinic and you need to be able to pay for it and fund it so they they're always front of mind and it's always been a sort of an afterthought that yes okay you need to do with FDA on that as part of that clinical development or part of that manufacturing part of that I guess the financing piece is a little bit a little bit different but I think it's it's not so much sort of any more it's not transactional as transactional as it used to be I think there's just that increasing understanding that as as regulations increase as the as the you know the number of guidance has increased the expectations of the agencies increase you need people at the table who understand that understand how to be compliant how to understand how to interpret the regulations and so it's it may also be by virtue of failures along the way so you see failures that have been due to an adequate quality compliance or manufacturing or GCP or an adequate regulatory strategy in some way or another they lead to failures and then and then the the reaction is okay we need to think about this a little deeper and bring people to the table and so by that by that by that means it looks like with this increased recognition of that it can only be I mean to me it can only be a good thing yeah and I hope to see that continue in the future yeah and what do you think quality leaders like yourself you mentioned earlier it's up to us to drive this forward how would you do that how do quality leaders in senior level positions how do they continue to articulate quality and get quality of better seat at the table I think that's that's the trick yeah that's a big question yeah it can be hard for you have to develop the phenotype where where you're able to persuade and communicate well with senior leadership and help them to understand the value proposition that comes along with having a greater quality input at earlier stages and more often in the in the development teams and so I think fundamentally for folks who are a little more technically minded they need to develop those softer skills communication and understanding develop you know the buzzword if the buzzword executive presence that yeah developing that as a individual and I think then maybe as a as a collective that the quality community perhaps can can also do some work to highlight the value that quality brings to to companies as a whole and then overlay that with just every day thinking okay this is what I'm doing in quality but how does that impact the total development and the total business and having having that lens at least having it in your mind and when you're when you're conducting your work will lead you towards that type of thinking and communicating that that value yeah I agree I mean it's when I've recruited inequality for a long time now I started in 2011 but when I set up the business our ex-group and focus decided to focus purely on quality into the US and it was very much I could sense that it's like the frustration in the industry from particularly from sort of middle management direct to level maybe BP is just not having that voice in a business and the the frustrations that every quality leader would have had at some point in their career I do think that it is getting better the perception of quality from other functions across the biotech sector to still a gap and this and and it's all about I think that yes you can have all the technical expertise but there's it's so important for young leaders aspiring leaders to be working on themselves as leaders working on their softer skills communication their ability to influence and negotiate it's not something that comes naturally to quality leaders because of their I suppose because of the the start of their career and and you know having to do but it's so important you're working you're sitting across the business you're working cross-functionally and there's some great leaders I have had on the podcast and and it's you know it's it's part of my role I see is recruiting to quality is to help the next generation of leaders improve their softer skills which is why I've got this mental scheme we're doing where people like yourself mentoring up and coming directors but like from your perspective softer skills and leadership skills how do you how do you start developing them when you're younger because you're not leading necessarily in that early stage in your career but you have to start developing them to put yourself in a position to lead in the future and be a strong leader what's important what can people start doing now who are maybe in that early part of their career to work on the skills to get to get the bigger job in the future yeah I think I think depending on your having having self-awareness as a starting point so be aware of how you operate how you how you communicate and what your phenotype is are you are you more technical introverted phenotype are you or extrovert and trying to find some balance I mean really to me leadership in general should really be about balance having the right tool for the right job at the right time and having a leadership talk if you like that you can call on at different times for the right situation to get the outcome that you need and that you want and so as a as a young quality professional I would say have a little bit of introspection see see what what you can you can find out about yourself and then look and see how you can learn about the soft skills learn about EQ and learn communication techniques and skills and then find someone in the organization doesn't have to be in quality someone in the organization who you can use as a as a as a mentor as a as a guide if you like who can help you to to mount some of those ideas and help you to guide you in terms of the pure soft skill elements sometimes that's that's you know someone maybe in HR maybe it's someone you know another leader within the organization and if they if the right person that you choose is probably they're going to stand out to you as as a good choice because they have high EQ and therefore they'll be open to helping you because that's part of it they'll be part of their their phenotype and I think then taking the opportunities where they where they come so at a practical level in a in a meeting you know when you're dealing with a particular issue you know see if you can find some aspect of that that relates to the total development scheme and the total the business have those things in mind and just small opportunities to think well how does this apply and maybe ask some questions or give some suggestions as to how this might apply how this might impact the businesses builds that sort of snowballing effect of experience and you might be surprised how when you demonstrate that in the you know a few times people start to engage with you on on those type of topics as well they see you know this person knows and thinks broadly about the the whole business so let's engage them in that in that type of discussion more often so I think it's that that kind of aspect and it's it's not easy everybody as you say everybody has different abilities different different superpowers and they're all important so I think it's just you know finding a balance and bringing up more of the powers that maybe you don't have for right now so that you can balance out your your strengths that you already have we start with that self-awareness piece isn't it yes it all starts and yeah and a lot of people naturally don't have self-awareness unfortunately yeah how do you how do you take that inwards look what's what's the starting step I mean I've I've done the there's a kind of a Myers-Briggs distillation type thing called insights they give you the colored bricks and you figure out what what personality type you are and what your strengths and and what your opportunities for sort of improvement are in terms of soft skills so you can you can do for a company office that or if you're able to take that I know it does it does cost money but there's other resources online that are free you can also then you know there's a lot of a lot of material online that's available you know podcasts different different things that you can you can take and then 360 feedback I mean I think in an organization 360 feedback across the board is important and regular 360 feedback but so what I've implemented our HR at Seros was very very strong on this juice fantastic is to have regular so quarterly or or six monthly 360 feedback not just waiting for the end of the year for for interview review and find out in January you could have changed something that would have made a difference all the way all the way through and getting that 360 feedback from from a variety of people around you people you work with senior leadership you know if you have direct reports get direct reports and taking that and bringing that in and and sort of taking a look at it for for what it is a snapshot in time of people sort of perspective on you and then learn from that and and you know take it in the in the positive light that is even even sort of critical feedback is an learning opportunity for you and something that you can then work on in the future they you know a few ways to sort of get some introspection gets some self-awareness and what you do with it is the most important piece from there yeah well smart I can be agree you've obviously got some really good practical tools there that you've implemented you mentioned insights so that's a really good tool do you do this with your team and the people underneath you as well just absolutely absolutely something something that I actually do is to share my insights colors with my team and another exercise I've done previously is to to write down your leadership philosophy a one-page leadership philosophy and there's there's guides on how you can do that and how you can different things you should think of and I did that we did that as an exercise previously in my last company and I brought it with me and at Blossom Hill when I joined Blossom Hill I gave it to my team the people who already at Blossom Hill you know working and I sort of inherited them when I joined the organization I said look you know we're gonna be working together you know I'm looking forward to this just as a as a sort of guide he's my leadership philosophy one-page and you're they give it to them to read and digest and we talk about it and and it sets us I think in a good a good footing for a great working relationship moving forward and then you just have to live that yeah what yeah what does that look like in terms of is that made up of your belief system your values yeah so so what do you believe what do you see as your leadership sort of hallmarks if you like what do you expect of the team what do you want what can I expect of you and you crafted in that way and so it lays out very clearly so some of the aspects of mine I mean I expect my team to challenge me on different topics if they have a different idea bring it forward you know we're here to do the best for the team and the best for the organization so you know I don't know everything that's for sure and particularly think of the quality space I know even less so you know if you have an idea and you you have a thought that's different to mine let's talk about it and let's figure out which you know maybe maybe it is a better idea and therefore we should implement that because it gives us a better outcome for the organization that type of thing you know I want people to be able to be comfortable and be themselves I want people to be able to speak openly and really you know focus on oh also an important one is having you know an assumption of good intent you know not many people get up in the morning and decide I'm going to make everybody's life terrible today everybody's trying to do their best work sometimes things get in the way and let's figure out how to how to remove those roadblocks and work more efficiently together how about managing upwards in your experience obviously you've got to do a good job in developing succession underneath you but a important part of what you do is is communicating the message from senior leadership so how do you how do you go about building relationships with your boss and how do you continue to sort of drive the importance of quality to the leadership team yeah very much very much in the same way making sure that we we have a good collegial relationship we open communication making sure that we have the assumption of good intent for everybody around the table and then in terms of quality again leveraging that that sort of perspective on how quality can drive value for the organization driving value and reducing risk and so that that is a great lever for for you know senior leadership see sweet and so on because you know that's that's what drives the success of the company value and minimizing risk for the organization and then demonstrating that you know take take some small pieces and small achievements they look we've implemented X this is the value that it gives us this is how it reduces our risk this is how it makes people more efficient having having you know examples that you can demonstrate to senior leadership is really effective and also on a personal level understanding again understanding their colors if you like the inside model how do they like to communicate how do they like to receive information you know someone who's very people know inside somebody is very blue is all in the details so that person was going to want a lot of detail around this you know the other folks maybe not so much maybe they want to hear more about the softer aspects and so being able to tailor and understand your audience and tell your message in that way and use use those skills in the right way it gets you the most effective response yeah yeah you try me as a someone that's been very proactive around their leadership development over the years I have and I've seen a change as well I've the the the insights colors I probably turn about eight times and from from junior levels and yeah I've seen it seen a change what are your colors so actually I lead off with red, green, yellow and blue okay they're all all by blue would you believe all by blue are above the 50% mark they that they put and they're all relatively even so yeah it's an interesting one it wasn't always that way was very much when I was younger very much green stood out you know a bit of red but green and yellow I think that sort of personal aspect yeah and then obviously there's always blue I mean I'm scientists at heart but I think the evolution as you as you get to into leadership more and as less and less the technical skills are more and more than the leadership skills and so I think what I've seen over the last sort of five to ten years is the the leveling out of the of the other the first three and and yeah sort of you know coming along behind yeah I suppose naturally as you go see you that red become yeah you need more direct leadership yes versus sort of the green and yellow I guess a more relationship be and sort of empowering people I guess is a blend of you know having a blend of red green yes and yellow is probably quite important at your level absolutely absolutely and of course everybody has all of the colors in some level you know I've seen some profiles where red was off the charts and everything else was was below but they're still there and I think it's how you use that people assume red I think of red as as getting things done yeah making sure things and you know being able to drive for for results not necessarily red just directing people and telling them what to do but driving the theme to get results and doing that with a good mixture of sort of green and yellow along the way helps you get there and not burn bridges and relationships I think that's you know that's and you obviously all to your style of communication for someone who is very blue for example to someone who is 100% red let's say yes is that how do you how do you because that's again it's quite hard yes to do that when you've got a team of different personalities yeah I think you know if I'm trying to present the same information to to someone who's very red they want to know the three three key points and what it what it means for the organization you know the blue person wants to know the three key points with maybe three three sub bullets of the definition of why and then you know the calculation and so so think about you're getting the same information across at the end of the day but the delivery is so it's very different and that's that's the first example but but just being able to tweak it a little bit and understand or anticipate even anticipating questions so yes you may deliver the same you have the same slide it's got the same information on it by the red person or someone who leans red if you like would would be more more likely to to be asking questions about the bottom line and what the ones are going to be done yes somebody looking at the same information who's blue is going to ask more questions about the details and just be ready for that that's yeah yeah yeah yeah I think it's great I think it's a really good I mean if anyone that doesn't know the insights tool I think it's a great practical exercise to do with your team and your leadership team and and and yourself so thank you for going into detail on that absolutely and like I said I think you struck me as someone who's been proactive throughout your career around developing themselves and obviously going from reg into quality you've you've had to rely on your strength as a leader and as a people person to be able to progress in your career indeed what's um what are you excited about then so you know your SVP quality and reg now plus male what does the what does the future look like what are you excited about I mean I'm excited about bringing new medicines to patients so nobody gets into this business unless there's an element of that for them because it's a it's a high road you know and you know often we see failures in in different promising medicine so that's really what I'm excited about and then helping teams to build I love I mean other building teams thinking through problems and helping the team to succeed and so you know it's really satisfying when you you have a problem to deal with and you finally work your way through I love a whiteboard as well you know whiteboarding ideas whiteboarding solutions and then when you really jelling with the team and you've got that vibe happening you're throwing ideas back and forth and you eventually work out that puzzle and say okay here's what we've got here's the best we can do with what we with the dealing we have so yeah that's that's a fun part actually thanks so much for coming on the show I think a lot people will take some there's some good practical insights and that's what it's about it's providing value and hopefully some inspiration to aspiring quality leaders or regulatory leaders that want to take the shift into quality in the future I never know I've lost some quick file questions just to end and this and talking about inspiration and that theme who's been the biggest inspiration in your life and this could be personally or professionally well I mean that one's easy for me my wife I mean you know multiple reasons but you know we as a family also have moved as I said from Australia to Singapore Singapore to the US and you know we don't have family in either of those countries and so our family unit is very tight and and my wife you know it's it's my life partner in that he's my inspiration keeps me keeps me honest keeps me grounded and you know challenges me as well on a daily basis and it's fantastic because she has a very very unique way of thinking about things see me through problems very high EQ as well and so you know she'll she'll say wow what do you think about this so you know when you said that you know maybe you should have approached it this way so I've always bouncing ideas from her and she makes me a better person so I love her for that great um this I suppose speaks a bit about your leadership philosophy but one of the two or three most important values that guide how you lead absolutely I mean in terms of leadership balance like I said having the right tool for the right job so being able to draw on different leadership skills understand when you need to be a little more directive understand when you need to be you know a little a little more consultative and also elevating the team I mean you will always be successful you'll always be a great leader if you are elevating your team so you know you see those leadership models and and and sort of you know the leadership means on Instagram about the the leader and the manager and for me that really resonates if your team is successful you have been successful as a leader so that's you know that's one the assumption of good intent is another one any any you know that a problem you have to deal with people around the table just assume everybody has good intent they try and to figure out how to how to solve this problem how to move things forward and it's always a way to do that awesome um what's the best piece of advice career advice you've ever received I think it was really being open to opportunities so you know and and if I think about the the times in my career I've changed roles both internally and changing companies it hasn't often been a proactive look from my perspective has been contacted by recruiters you know let's use yourself or others and being open to to the idea of of new opportunities at the right time and we we're for me I'm always looking for the next opportunity would be anywhere where I can bring my skills and provide value to an organization internally or externally and then where there's an opportunity to to grow and to learn and to to grow my career I think that's where taking on quality taking on medical writing clearly you know I could have said well I actually know I'd like to keep regular training but I feel comfortable there I'm safe but when being open to new opportunities it's sure if I you know if I think I can do justice to that if I have the support to do it and I think I can drive and value to the organization I can grow my career perfect we'll take it on and so doing that throughout your career obviously if you don't necessarily want to move around do frequently and you want to make sure that you're doing justice to the to the role that you're in but if you're doing that and you're open to new ideas and new opportunities they will come to you actually thank you very much for your time I've really enjoyed the conversation pleasure thank you Amish no problem if people want to get hold of you is LinkedIn generally the best way I'm on LinkedIn yeah easy to find very good well thanks so much be time really enjoy the chat thank you very much thank you for listening to today's show I hope that you got value from it whether you're starting your career in quality or if you're at the top of your field today's episode was brought to you by RX Group on the founder of RX Group we are a farmer and biotech recruitment organization focusing purely on quality assurance we recruit consultants and senior level permanent quality professionals into the farmer and biotech industry if we can support you whether that be in a hiring capacity or if you yourself are looking for work please get in touch with me on LinkedIn visit our LinkedIn page where you can subscribe to the podcast and visit our website www.rxhifinggroup.io to find out more about us see you soon