How to use LinkedIn to your career advantage, with Natalie MacDonald

0:10 Get EVEN: Introducing Natalie MacDonald and LinkedIn Welcome to Guess Even, the podcast for ambitious women looking to go further. I'm Doctor Nora Kozlowski, Co founder of Even and your host for this episode today. Guess Even is a podcast where we interview successful women about their career stories, but we actually take a peek behind the curtain. 0:32 So we learn about what it really takes to thrive. We learn about some of the hard choices that they've had to make in their careers. We learn about the messy realities behind the highlights rail. And if you're a woman who's got a lot on her plate, who wants to go far and who wants community and support, then this is the place for you. 0:55 Welcome to Guess Even. 1:12 Welcome back to the Get Even podcast. I'm Doctor Nora Kozlovsky, Co founder of Even, and today's conversation is about something that I know many of you in our community know they want and should be doing, but can feel a little bit hesitant about. 1:28 And that's building a voice and a presence on LinkedIn. I know that for many of us, LinkedIn can feel intimidating. It can feel a bit icky, it can feel a bit revealing and vulnerable. That said, you might have really interesting ideas to share. 1:46 You might have lessons that you've taken from your career, or you might have a perspective that can genuinely help others. And so today, I'm going to chat with Natalie. Natalie McDonald is the founder of Working at It. She's a former member of the LinkedIn news team in Australia. 2:04 She started her career as a journalist covering major global stories, and she became really interested in how professionals share their ideas, how we connect with stories, how we connect with experiences, and how we can make sure that we have access to the information that we need at the right time. 2:22 Today, Natalie works with leaders and with organizations to help them find their own voice and to build a meaningful professional narrative online. That's not icky. Let's get into it. 2:38 From Journalist to Founder: Natalie's Path to Working @ It Hi, Natalie. It's a delight to have you on. Guess even. 2:41 Speaker 2 Thank you so much for having me. I can't. 2:42 Speaker 1 Wait, I know. So the first thing I want to dig into is you're obviously now the founder of Working at It and there's a bit of a back story behind it. So I want to hear what's LED you to be where you are now in this phase of your life and career. 2:56 Speaker 2 Yeah, it's been, I think it's been a journey as many careers end up being. I'm a journalist by by trade and by education and it was really from this desire or want to connect people with the information that they need in their days. Everything throughout my career has really followed that North Star when it comes to connecting people with information. 3:16 I started as a business reporter overseas and then as a as a producer and anchor first guy who's business in Australia for some time. And then I joined LinkedIn and I was actually a founding member of the LinkedIn news team for seven years. And I covered during the Bush fire crisis. 3:31 I covered small business and you know, helped. I interviewed government ministers and CEOs and small businesses. And that was from the Bush fire crisis, then obviously into the pandemic, which we know was just so crushing for so many small businesses. So that was again an instance of connecting people with the information, the resources that they needed. 3:49 I covered diversity, inclusion and belonging in the workplace. So again, did a lot of LinkedIn live interview series, a lot of newsletter writing around things like supporting caregivers in the workplace around gender. And what I loved so much about LinkedIn was that I was in two way conversations with professionals. 4:07 And as part of that and in sharing my own experiences through things like being a working mother. I have a four year old and a one year old being a working mother and experiencing pregnancy loss, which unfortunately was part of our our journey of growing a family as part of that post Natal depression and anxiety. 4:22 You know, I very much a bit of an open book. If you ask me a question, you'll get the answer. And I decided to share that answer with, you know, 1 billion professionals on LinkedIn. But as part of that, I grew my community. I have 35,000 followers on LinkedIn. I have a newsletter that goes to 15,000 subscribers and had very much built a very impassioned community around that. 4:44 Which meant that unfortunately, when I was made redundant just six weeks after returning from my second parental leave, I came out on the other side with Option. I had people that would message me and ask me to look at their wife's personal coaching website or in the USA Med tech firm that wanted me to check out their offerings. 5:03 And at first, honestly, I found it a tiny bit annoying. I was really in that flux stage of having just been made redundant, not really understanding what my future held. But LinkedIn obviously was this double edged sword of I know the power of the platform, I know how important it has been to me and other. 5:20 I had this real light bulb moment of going, OK, well, if I want to keep connecting people with the information that they need, if I want to continue having impact at scale, which I have the skills, I have the profile to be able to do, then maybe there is something in this. 5:40 Maybe actually I can help others grow their personal brand, grow their organization, lean into thought leadership, give them the skills and the confidence and the tools that they need to start growing their community and put their expertise out there and connect them with whatever their next opportunity might be. 5:58 And so I, I always say that obviously working at it supports all professionals, all teams or all organisations. It's heart. I'm really in it for, as I always say, my, my gals, my mums, my gays, my bays, that my communities who haven't always been offered those opportunities, who haven't always been offered those, those that confidence and the skills to be able to go and do that and to tell their stories and to use their voice and to grow their voice in really powerful ways that actually serve them. 6:25 Because we know that in times of economic volatility, and particularly in the AI transformation now, we know that it is women and it is caregivers who are largely vulnerable to those restructures and to those changing asks within the workplace. But they're also the last people to be putting that time into themselves and investing in growing their brand and growing their careers. 6:47 Overcoming the 'Ick': Finding Your Authentic LinkedIn Voice I love that and it's, I love listening to your story because it's so clear to me that you're very authentically you and it just, it comes through, you know, you're really, you're able to tell your own story, but then you're able to connect to, to the bigger picture of what's going on for other people. And how can you help them to find their own, their own voice and their own narrative. 7:06 And so I want to actually start with that is, you know, if, if you are a member of the communities that you support and they are feeling that they are kind of in that vulnerable space right now where they are at risk of being left behind. What is your advice and and how do you support people to to find their own authentic voice to begin with? 7:26 Speaker 2 I think for a lot of people right now in the environment of of, as I say, the AI transformation and we hear the term AI slop a lot and we hear the term ick a lot. And it makes people feel really put off by putting themselves out there because they're worried about being judged. 7:46 They're worried about being judged by others and that that it is going to transfer to them. And it makes this whole uncomfortable sort of negative feedback cycle. So First things first, we need to break that. And really that is by spending time on platforms. So like LinkedIn, as we're sort of talking about today. 8:04 So going in and take responsibility for your feed a little bit. And I know that sounds really, really mean and push you, but what I, but what I, what I mean by that is LinkedIn is a platform and it requires data and it requires good data in, good data out. 8:20 So if you're just going through there and you're just scrolling and scrolling and having a bit of a hate scroll on a Friday night over a glass of wine and let's be honest, who of us, who of us hasn't? You're not really going to be getting back what you need. You're not going to be seeing content that fuels your voice, that inspires you, that makes you want to get involved and share your own knowledge or share your own feedback. 8:42 The story I always use is that when I was on parental leave, Instagram had this feature where if you unfollowed a certain account and in me, I was clearly not feeling great about myself and I was unfollowing a lot of the gym girlies. I was unfollowing a lot of a lot of the bikini girlies. 8:57 I just didn't quite need that at that moment in time. And Instagram did this thing where they say you are also following six other accounts that post the similar content. Do you want to unfollow them as well? And I was like, yes, I do. And I always bear that in mind when I think about my LinkedIn feed. 9:13 So if I'm going through that and I'm seeing someone's content and I'm like, this doesn't feel my voice is actually just makes me a bit grumpy and want to put my phone or my computer away and follow them. And you can still be connected. So even if it's like your brother-in-law, you can unfollow him and he won't know. 9:29 He'll be none the wiser that you don't have to see his like silly tech broetry in your feed anymore. Or be like, Steve, I know you haven't done a pickup in your life. Please stop talking about like the juggle of being a working dad Anyway, sorry, Steve, but so putting that time in to actually be creating a feed. 9:46 So as I say, that might be unfollowing people that just don't serve your purpose anymore. You're just not in a place where that content is helpful to you or really giving you anything and vice versa, going out there and looking for individuals who are posting really cool content. Or if you see something actually, I'm going to add a comment to that. 10:03 Again, good data in, good data out. The feed is going to recognize that and start serving you more of that. There's a bit of work to be done. It's like a muscle. It's like anything. But the more you start to exercise it, the more that you're going to get that back. And I would say that that is actually your first step when it comes to overcoming the ick or starting to feel like, oh, what does authentic content look like? 10:27 And again, it doesn't need to be going out there and being like, I'm so delighted I got to go to this meeting today or I won this award that I had to pay to be a nominee for the sample that I always use is actually in fact, that that trophy on a desk photo that I cannot stand. 10:45 People who are who approaching LinkedIn at a very like this is just a job that needs to be ticked will write so delighted that the triple whatever team won this award. Thumbs up. Now, if you want to gamify that a little bit, if you want to upskill that a bit, you might say here are three hiring principles that we've adopted to build award-winning teams. 11:12 It's a straightaway you're getting into like a bit more knowledge, it's a little bit more punchy, it's a little bit more aligned with your values and it's demonstrating your expertise. If you want to get to like intermediate level, I would always say here are the three hiring principles that we use to build award-winning teams. 11:29 And these are the mistakes that we made along the way. Immediately you are grounding yourself as an expert. You're also grounding yourself as being someone that is human and makes mistakes. 11:41 Speaker 1 Person, and you're exactly up as a person rather than a robot that says I'm delighted, blah blah blah. 11:47 Speaker 2 Exactly. And you can say we we stuff things up along the way because we do like find me someone who hasn't, but you've grown from it. And also people are just inherently ambulance chasers and they want to know what went wrong as well. They want to see that. So you start thinking, as you say, from an authentic perspective, start thinking about the things that you've got to share. 12:05 And it may not even be necessarily explicitly to do with your job. It might even be that actually you do volunteer outside of work. It might be to do with others if any of us have time. Or it might be around the juggle with your children. Or it might be you could be going through a neurodivergence journey with with one of your children. 12:24 You might be going through a divorce for goodness sake. You know, these are all things that people are interested in and they want to hear and it really connects the person with the professional. We've all grown so smart to being sold to and being marketed to. 12:39 But if you can have a human relationship, that will pay dividends 10 times over. 12:46 Speaker 1 Yeah, OK, So what I'm learning from you is it's actually the it's really the very deeply personal, it's the human aspects that make us want to to read, that make us want to engage with content on LinkedIn. But I also think it's the deeply human aspects inside of ourselves that can actually stop us from fully putting ourselves on, on LinkedIn or on other platforms. 13:08 And I, what I hear quite often from community members that I engage with is I want to have a voice, but I'm hesitant. I have that ick that you described. I worry about not being humble. I worry about doing things wrong. I worry about somebody finding out that, you know, perhaps I exaggerated something or all of the usual kind of psychological things that go on that prevent us from putting ourselves out there. 13:33 So what do you say about that? How do you get over some of those barriers? And also how do you stay consistent on LinkedIn? How do you make it a habit that's not sort of a, oh, I must tick that box, but it's something that actually adds value to my professional life and that adds value to those around me. 13:49 Mastering LinkedIn: Consistency, Content Buckets, and Real Impact Actually had a client who set a calendar on her phone. She actually set it up so three times, 15 minutes a week, she was going on LinkedIn and she was doing exactly what I just discussed she was going through. And she was actually making a point of, say, engaging with three posts and not just a great job, Kate, or good luck, but actually going in and sharing a couple of lines of actual feedback. 14:18 Because the thing that people don't realize is that comments on posts are actually a really, really smart engagement tool. It's half the brain space. It's half the vulnerability of writing something or creating something yourself. But if you're really smart and if you do actually lend expertise, LinkedIn actually now even shows you the number of impressions that your comment on a post has got. 14:39 So it is a really not, it's not a hacky thing to do. It is a genuine community builder. So, so spending 15 minutes, so to say, add, say you might want to do 3 comments on a post. You might want to send out two connection requests with perhaps people that you worked with before, mentors in your space or industry leaders that you really admire. 14:59 Again, we're not doing just the random thingamies. We want to make sure that we have actual genuine connections with these people. You might reply to all of your emails and just slowly start to create those. His habits I also always talk about naturally. It's a concept that a beautiful former colleague of mine, Lorraine Lee, she shared once and it just blew my mind because it was just so simple. 15:22 It's the four buckets of content that you think about when it comes to LinkedIn. So 4. So you've got expertise and that is something I know how to do that you might not and not like in a patroning way, patronizing way, but just a genuine sharing of expertise. 15:39 Then you've got professional and that is something that has happened that might be in your industry or it might be in sort of the broader public space and you're going to take it, you're going to deconstruct it and share it through your lens. Now, an example might be, and some of these are really kind of obvious examples, but for instance, during the Taylor Swift tour when you had economists talking about the, the economic impact of Taylor or talking about from a tourism or from a marketing perspective, the Super Bowl get a lot of like marketing experts. 16:11 And some of them after like the 600th, it does get really, really boring. But if they're done well and these are examples of things that you're taking this big event and you're deconstructing it and then putting it through your lens as an expert in your field, then you get to your third bucket around and that is really attached more to personal. 16:30 Now, obviously I am never going to tell someone, yes, just cut yourself open for, for likes. It's, it's, it's not how we work. It's not something that's going to be helpful or healthy to you, but there is value in sharing those personal experiences. So it might be, as I say, things that are are closer to home around a neurodivergence journey or managing the juggle in your home. 16:52 It might be a resiliency piece. It might be something that you learned. It might be a goal that you set for yourself and, and how you got there and how you managed to do it alongside a full time job and three children. But it is just again, it's that centering yourself as a, as a human being 1st and then the 4th bucket is the promotional 1, which might be if you like all of this stuff, then I've got services or I'm looking for a role or da, da, da, da. 17:17 But the fact is, if you have done all of those three content buckets right, if you've done the expertise, if you've done the professional, if you've done the personal, you've been doing the promotional all along. 17:27 Speaker 1 Yeah, Yeah. You're just calling it out. So summarizing those again, So if I understood you correctly, it's the expertise bucket, it's the professional bucket, it's the personal and then finally the promotional. 17:40 Speaker 2 And, and there's no rule. You don't want to be like, Oh no, I've, I've, yeah, I must hit all of my buckets. But if you can step back and holistically look at the content that you've put out over the last couple of weeks and then like or she's been leaning a little bit promotional, then that's just she's been a little bit promotional. 17:58 Then it's just a really good indicator to just go, OK, let's just course correct ever so slightly. And the other thing to think about is that if you post on LinkedIn once a week, that 4X is your profile views. If you post on LinkedIn twice a week, that 5X is your profile views. 18:14 So something that I also talked to her clients about is if you've got a lot of Evergreen, and by Evergreen, I mean they're not timely, they're not attached to a news cycle, they're not attached to like a big event. You can batch prep a load of that content, sit down for an hour, write 5 posts worth of content or however much you want to, and then use the scheduling tool and schedule those out over the coming 5 weeks. 18:40 So it means that you're, you're taken care of, you've got your ideas out there. And if you are someone that is maybe going to talk yourself out of it, it's done. It's, it's loaded out, it's out of your hands. You don't need to worry about anymore. And it also means that if something crops up, as I say, that is in the news or an event that you've gone to or something that's really inspired you, you can hop on. 19:00 And now you're, you're just stacking, you're boosting your visibility even more and you're going to start getting that, that reward back and creating that, that positive feedback loop for yourself. 19:10 Speaker 1 I love that. And also I think it means you, you really, you can do it when you've got the time and the space to think about it. And and then you kind of, yeah, you don't have to worry about it if it turns out to be a really busy day that it kind of it just keeps slipping down on your, your To Do List. And then you never get to it. And then you feel bad about it. 19:25 And then you don't do it the next day because you still feel bad. And you kind of get yourself into that spiral of not not posting. 19:31 Speaker 2 Exactly. And I, and I would say actually I had a friend recently who she, she did exactly this. She, she had ideas coming out of her ears, but then just never got around to do anything with them. So she sat down, she wrote the post. She did send them over to me to do a little, a little bit of a look, see, just for optimizing. 19:50 And she has been blown away by the number of people she's like in real life. Naturally, in real life, people are actually talking to me about the things that have posted on LinkedIn. And even I met with someone last week who was a LinkedIn top voice. And now for those that don't know, Linkedin's top voice program, it's a LinkedIn influencer program. 20:08 And actually I used to do the. Have the bopty bopty boop and add the badges to people's profiles. So it's I used to actually press the buttons that would add the LinkedIn top badge to someone's profile and actually would announce them to bid to being a top voice. 20:23 But anyway, she we caught up last week and she said, I have to tell you, she's like, it's a game changer. I get asked to speak at events, I get invited to conferences. I get all of these things that just wouldn't happen otherwise because I'm a top voice. 20:41 So these are just examples where your behaviour online starts to have real world consequences in a good way. I mean, they can have real world consequences in a bad way too if you don't use your platform appropriately, but this was the good kind. 20:54 Speaker 1 Yeah, no, I love it and I love the reinforcing effect as well. And I've so many times people that you meet up in with in person, they comment on, oh, I saw you were at this event or I saw you wrote about this or that. And then they it kind of makes it easy also to start a conversation in real life when somebody's already seen something that you wrote and which. 21:11 Speaker 2 I and this is what I talk about with the individuals and also for leaders and organizations across the board. It shortens that decision making journey. If you are reaching out to someone because you want to have a coffee chat and pick their brain, or perhaps there is a role at their organization that you're interested in. 21:27 If they can go to your LinkedIn profile and be like, actually Nora does talk about this or she clearly has expertise in this and she's using that. It shortens that decision making journey from someone getting your message to be like, yes, I want to talk to you. 21:41 Speaker 1 Yeah, awesome. OK. And then so you've obviously become really good at creating content that is both authentic, but people also want to engage with it. 21:53 Why Storytelling is an Essential Skill for Modern Leaders Can you explain to us, you know, what's helped you other than your journalism background? What's really helped you to become great at at crafting content? 22:00 Speaker 2 Think it it does. It comes back to that authenticity. I was in a meeting the other day and someone and I had to pause it because my my child was home and and needed something from me. And they said, I love how confident you are about being a parent and being an active parent. And I said, well, I became a parent during COVID and I had never known anything other than loud parenting because this was COVID. 22:23 People were trying to do the homeschool juggle. They were trying to do everything and keep their shit together. Last in a pandemic. 22:31 Speaker 1 Yeah, trying to parent while that was happening. 22:33 Speaker 2 And I always, always, always credit then my loud parenting with that because I didn't know anything else. I never, I was never in the environment where I had to parent like I didn't work and work like I didn't parent. 22:49 And I think that is a really good illustration of how I've approached the rest of my content as well. But I also really think about instances where if I am posting something, what is it going to serve? If there has been an event in the news cycle and I want to post about it, am I going to be sharing my expertise if I'm an expert in that field? 23:12 If I'm not an expert, how can I perhaps connect people with resources or with other voices who are? And I think particularly through the diversity, inclusion, and belonging work in the workplace, I've done a lot of the storytelling on that. So it's not posting for posting's sake. It is having a genuine view. 23:28 Speaker 1 So you're really focusing on how does this add to somebody else's life or to to their building of knowledge or how does it help to connect them to something, whether it's resources, information, other people? 23:40 Speaker 2 Yeah, my voice is is almost the least important in this space is it is how I can use it to to amplify and connect others and that that's always been the case. Mine just happens to be really loud and British. 23:51 Speaker 1 So I love that just that that mindset shift, which I think would be really helpful for a lot of people who have, you know, great degree of hesitancy about engaging or posting. But I want to speak about leaders specifically because you mentioned earlier that being in a habit of posting or engaging actually shortens some of the decision making cycles or even the cycles of how long it takes to build a relationship or a degree of familiarity. 24:14 And I'd love to talk about how important it is for for leaders to actually master the art of, of storytelling, posting, sharing. And why do you think that is a skill set that actually is important to to master as you progress in your leadership career? 24:30 Speaker 2 This is so funny because I was actually talking about this only last week at an event that I moderated, but we were talking about it from like a reputation crisis management perspective. Slightly different side of the coin, but at its heart kind of the the same, the same premise kind of thing. 24:48 And so you had on LinkedIn in 2024 alone, there was a 20%, twenty, 4% rise in the number of CEOs proactively posting on LinkedIn. And you see it, you see often organizations get straight to LinkedIn with news perhaps about layoffs or C-Suite shifts or new products and going to LinkedIn and offering, as I say, that that human first thing now, yeah, that comes from a perspective where they might be a listed company or they might have investors after them. 25:18 So it is from a different side of the coin. But I think that still comes back to the fact that on a couple of different levels, you've got CEOs spend over nearly 2/3 of their time, stakeholder management across the board. And being able to have a proactive voice on a platform like LinkedIn reduces that, maximizes output. 25:35 And again, it makes it human first. But we're also, as I say, we're so smart now about being sold to. I think it's something like 72% of decision makers now look to thought leadership over marketing materials. Yeah. And it is. It's just from that idea of like, we just don't want to be sold to many more. 25:54 We want to have a conversation with a human and someone actually called it AB2H to me the other day, business too human. I loved it. I told them I was stealing it. Here we are. I'm stealing it because it is it is just so true. And as I said earlier, allows you to position yourself as an as an industry expert of choice. 26:12 It allows you to position yourself as an employer of choice. And what I mean by that particularly is if you have a team of 150 people or if you're in a team that is perhaps a geographically diverse team across Australia or or more broadly, you might not always get the contact time with them that you would like to to be able to really invest in that team morale or understanding who you are as a person or where you're going. 26:39 If you are able to take to a platform like LinkedIn and you might even be a dad who has a toddler who thinks that sleep is for the week because don't they all? And if you are showing up on platform and you're able to say, I've got this going on at work, but I also have this going on at home, then that trickles down through your organization and people start to go, well, if Steve can show up like that both internally and externally, then I can too. 27:10 And it starts to create, as I say, this mimicry effect where suddenly you are activating an entire organization of experts in their field. They they have to be, otherwise why would you have hired them? That then start to become your brand advocates and start to sell, tell your brand story for you and that all start to Halo back to your organization. 27:28 Now, if you have an organization of people that you cannot get to post on LinkedIn for love nor money in some cases, then it kind of takes a little bit of a look under the hood to explore, well, why is that what is happening? 27:44 Is there something happening within our teams? Is there something that they're not seeing from us at a leadership level and to be able to activate that. So I think I'm having a lot of conversations with organizations at the moment who are just starting to twig, but that is actually their strategy. It's not always making their CEO the most powerful person on LinkedIn, but it is actually how their employees, their people are also showing up and also telling those stories. 28:10 So it's not just about you, it is how you're showing. This is who we are as an organization. This is how we show up. 28:17 Speaker 1 And I think there's the real balancing act. So I've certainly seen within organizational processes where the comms could be very crafted, very sanitized, and, you know, people recognize that immediately and it's not particularly engaging. 28:32 And then you also have the other side of the spectrum where it's like somebody firing off a LinkedIn post when it's perhaps like 11:00 at night. They've had a few glasses of wine or they're not in their best state and they haven't put any thought into, you know, how's this going to go down? I think it's sort of the happy medium of, again, what you said earlier, how to keep it personal, but you know, still it actually adds value to others. 28:51 It's not really about you. 28:52 Speaker 2 They're just that that human level and also recognizing that leaders have multifaceted individuals as well. They're not just sat at the top of this tower. 29:02 Unlocking LinkedIn: Advanced Tips and Strategic Engagement Yeah, who does this really well? 29:06 Speaker 2 There are some great examples. So I think if I was to think about Australia, some Australian examples of people, you've got Sarah Styles who does a lot around women in sport. So a really great example, as I say, of someone who takes the story and is able to deconstruct it and put it through their lens of expertise. 29:27 She does a lot of really great work in that space. Sherry Clonan, who is the CEO of the Digital Picnic, again, she talks a lot about the way that she leads her organization and is another fascinating example of someone who has invested in that conversation on platform and has received abundant opportunities three times over. 29:47 You can't move and she's speaking an event or, or, or in the paper or, or doing this, and that's amazing. We love that. I think she's really, really great at sharing their lens there. Another really fab example, Eliza Owen was the economist has just gone out on gone out on her own and is really looking to do property conversations in Australia differently. 30:09 She uses video as her medium as well. She has a lot of explainers in terms of how this data and how this research is put together. And she does wonderful stuff. And I'm going to go with another woman in finance as well, Deanna Mussina, who is the deputy chief economist at AMP. In fact, the whole economics team at AMP do a really, really wonderful job. 30:28 They do a lot of explain as they do a lot of really funny videos through their econo sites, newsletter and Instagram account and they also post a lot of that on LinkedIn. But she has done a really good job. Deanna is really, really passionate about financial literacy, and this content really goes some way to be closing the gap in those spaces. 30:45 They are incredibly intelligent women at the top of their game who are using that to start conversations and to be able to inform and educate their community about the things that matter to them. So of course, I think they're fantastic. 30:58 Speaker 1 Yeah. Oh, but I love the fact that you're, you're sharing these, you know, examples of powerful women who are using an interesting medium to make their knowledge accessible and to use it for a good reason. I I love those examples. I think the other thing I wanted to you've already given us some sort of behind the scenes inside and and facts and things that people may not realize about LinkedIn. 31:19 But is there anything else that you think our community must know about how to use LinkedIn? Any sort of tricks that we're perhaps unaware of? 31:31 Speaker 2 Sure. I would encourage you. A lot of people don't realize. So as I say, I was a founding member of the LinkedIn news team in Australia. A lot of people don't realize where news sits on the platform. So if you're on your desktop, on the right hand side, you'll see a little news tab and you'll see a whole bunch of stories. 31:48 They're covering a range of different topics, and if you go into those stories, you will see a whole bunch of member posts in there. Now, those are handpicked by editors and they serve a really powerful purpose. If your story is selected, you get a notification and so does your community that says Nora's post has been chosen by the LinkedIn news team in here. 32:08 So immediately it's what I call strategic recognition. It shows that you are showing up and you're being recognized. And that's a really, really, really powerful tool. So I always encourage people to follow the LinkedIn news profile in, in the country where you are. 32:24 So in this case, go to go and type in LinkedIn News Australia, go follow the page and you'll see the whole host of content and stories that they cover there. Again, as we were saying, jump into the comments and don't just be like, this is good. Share your expertise because you don't know you might actually be able to get your for your post to be selected and for it to be be amplified through content. 32:45 I would also say be discerning with who you're following on LinkedIn for their expertise. A lot of people obviously spent a lot of time investing in the platform and investing in their brands on the platform and profess themselves to be LinkedIn experts. 33:01 I would say no one is and unless you have this coming. 33:06 Speaker 1 From you. 33:07 Speaker 2 And that is coming from me because the platform changes all the time. Now be discerning about where you're getting your insights from. So the LinkedIn News Australia page is a really good source for that. And follow some of the other editors, follow some of the the product leads and people that actually work at the platforms that you're trying to master so that you can get those insights kind of straight from the horse's mouth. 33:29 And also follow me and follow working at it for her for some of that as well. 33:34 Natalie's Career Advice: Send the Damn Email and Build Community Definitely had to get that in there. 33:36 Speaker 2 Had to get it in there somewhere. 33:38 Speaker 1 That was amazing advice on using LinkedIn and really thinking about how to make the most of the platform. The other thing I'd love to to know from you is just broader career advice, career insight. Our community is always super keen to learn from women who have a unique perspective and who are impressive as you are. 33:56 What advice do you wish to pass on? 33:58 Speaker 2 That is such a good question. It's my word of the year and it's the first time that I've ever done a word of the year. Actually, I should caveat this. So if this so if this year sucks, I'll have another go next year. It'll be fine, but my word of the year, my word for 2026 is actually explosive and not in like throwing stuff or, you know, blowing shit up, but actually in a send the damn e-mail, ask the damn question, do the damn thing. 34:25 And it really came about from I was actually asked to do another interview and again, it was really focusing on human skills. And a lot of the questions were harking back to what would I tell my younger self? How did I get into the industry? And I had this real realization that actually, as a, you know, 21 year old new grad, I would just go and insert myself in conversation rightly or wrong way. 34:48 I would just go and insert myself in conversations or in rooms where I knew I had something to say. I knew I had impact. Hi, I had input to have and had impact. And as we get a little bit older and we get a little bit more sort of war weary or we have competing priorities at home or work, and we just gradually sort of move away from that. 35:09 And I think you're being made redundant so soon after coming back from parental leave and, and really having to now try and build a new path for, for myself, you know, it has been hard, but it is reliant on me putting myself out there. And so it was a real reminder of of that tenacity and of that oomph that I had as a new grad to, to do that now, you know, And I think the reminder of, especially for us as women, things we won't always get the flowers if and when we perhaps deserve them. 35:41 And sometimes our career will be in other people's hands and they're not always going to be gentle with it and that won't always be something that we can do about it. So I think really acknowledging that and being true to yourself and as I say, still showing up, still ask the damn question and listen to the answer and understand that if you are perhaps in a space where you are getting more no's than yeses and you are being pushed back on and and you are not being held gently, then maybe that environment isn't quite the right one for you. 36:11 But to know that it is you, that you are doing everything in your power so that at the end of it, you can fully turn around and say, OK, I did my best, this isn't about me anymore. And so being able to walk away from moments or from environments or situations and being comfortable in that. 36:28 But yeah, send the damn e-mail, ask the damn question, do the damn thing. And I think one of the things that has really has really been beautiful in a lot of like weird and funky moments, people want to see you succeed. They want to do to see you do well. They want to cheerlead you. 36:44 So I think it is, it's leaning into the community that you've built, but also ensure that you are building that community around you as well. I had someone really, really, very, very kindly say that this is now, you know, the warmth that I'm getting from people around me is a reflection of the time and the warmth and the energy that I have put into them all these years as well. 37:04 So I will gladly receive that. 37:07 Speaker 1 Yeah, 100%. I think it's a, it's sort of a lifelong project, isn't it, to build your, your network, your advocates and and yeah, you are receiving now because you've given, but I, but I do think it's actually really important that whole advocacy piece or self advocacy is you are in charge of your career, you're in charge of building your network and what you make of, of both of those, those things. 37:29 And I don't think we can sort of just sit back and wait and wait for it to happen to. 37:33 Speaker 2 Us no one is coming to help you. 37:36 Speaker 1 Yeah. 37:37 Speaker 2 As as much as as much as we love that there are there are moments when people will but for the for the long of it, it's it's you. You, you have your power. And don't always hand that over either. Remember that they are your superpowers. 37:52 Speaker 1 I love that I could listen to you for another hour, but as we said at the beginning, I do have a sick daughter at home who's threatening to pass on her, her sniffles to me. So I'm going to just going to cut it short here. Thank you, Natalie, that was awesome. It was great to have you on guess even. Thanks so much for being here. 38:08 Speaker 2 It was such a pleasure, really. Thank you so much for having me. 38:20 Speaker 1 I'm Doctor Nora Kozlovsky, Co founder of Even, where our mission is to accelerate women's economic potential. Check out Even careers.com to learn how we support women and business to get even.