How to Unlearn People-Pleasing, Stop Self-Abandoning & Communicate Authentically with Psychotherapist Meg Josephson

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Let me just unload everything. New episodes every Wednesday. Leave those filters at the door, because it's time to get real. Hello, everybody, and welcome back to RealPod. I am so excited about this episode because I feel like if you enjoy the show, we probably relate on a lot of levels. And you've heard me talk about the fact that I am a self-proclaimed people pleaser, a, as told by my therapist, perfectionist, among many other traits that have me constantly feeling a little exhausted, tired, and worn down, because I am trying to constantly be the best version of myself with others. And today's guest is truly incredible, so thought-provoking, and deeply informative to help those of you like me undo a lot of our people pleaser habits, so we can stop self-abandoning and actually live a more authentic life where we feel regulated, empowered, and safe being who we are. Our guest today, Meg Josephson, is a licensed psychotherapist and clinical social worker, and she's the author of New York Times best-selling book, Are You Mad at Me? That is the title of the book, Are You Mad at Me, which I think is incredible. So if you're constantly worried about what people are thinking of you, if they like you, or if they're mad at you, you're anxious, the perfectionist and overachiever, if you're always overextending yourself and then resentful, if you avoid conflict at all costs, if you're fearful of getting in trouble or being seen as bad, among many other things, then this podcast episode is going to resonate with you, and so is Meg's book Are You Mad at Me, which you can get now, it is available anywhere you find your favorite books. Meg also graduated from Columbia University. So to any New Yorkers out there, she's one of your own. In today's episode of RealPod, you are going to learn so many things. You'll uncover why it is you've developed the people pleasing coping skills and how to unlearn it. You'll learn how to stop over-explaining yourself and being firm about your boundaries and needs, and Meg is going to provide you with a handful of actionable takeaways that you can start using in your life today. And lastly, I'm, of course, going to share a few personal stories about growth moments that I've had. We're getting vulnerable. It is RealPod. Before we get started, I want to give a quick shout out. This one goes to Miranda, whose username is Miranda is a rock star. I'm going to co-sign that for you, girl. Left a five-star review, said, "Big love for RealPod. Been listening to this podcast for a while now. I usually don't leave reviews. However, I just listened to the Emmanuel Aucho episode and had to write something." This felt like it was made for me. Like, Vic and Emmanuel had been listening to my recent therapy sessions. So much so that I actually sent it to my therapist and asked her to listen before our next session. Oh, my God, that's awesome. Thank you, Victoria, for providing the realest, most honest and necessary podcast out there. Hashtag Bubbles emoji. If you know you know, aka, my girl Miranda's a VIP. Thank you, Miranda. I appreciate that so much. Thank you for taking the time to leave a review considering that you had it before. Really goes a long way for the show. So if any of you out there have been enjoying RealPod and you want to leave us a rating in a review, you just may be the special shout out on next week's episode. Without further ado, let's get started with today's conversation with licensed clinical social worker and psychotherapist Meg Josephson. Meg, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me. I'm so happy to have you. Your bestselling book, are you mad at me? Feels like a personal attack. Oh, my God. You're not alone. It feels like a personal attack on myself too. So I was going to ask, first of all, what brought you to social work? And then how did you find this niche? I would say the answers are similar. I definitely was drawn to just becoming a therapist. I feel like it's so classic through my own experiences. But I, and then kind of in working through those wounds and processing the things that I was processing, I just felt this draw to supporting other people. My passion specifically and kind of what I uncovered in school was integrating trauma-based care with mindfulness, meditation, spirituality, and bringing those two worlds together. That is like my favorite thing ever. So because that was really healing with my own stuff, I just thought, let's bring it around. Wait, let's dive into that trauma-based care with mindfulness. So what's an example of? Well, I think just for a lot of people who experience early childhood trauma or they feel really anxious or dysregulated and they're not here in their bodies, however that looks, whether it's, you know, through dissociation or it's overthinking and ruminating or always thinking people are mad at you. Like, whatever it's manifesting, our bodies think we're in the past often or in the future. We're imagining worst case scenarios, things that aren't actually happening. And I just find it to be so powerful to use mindfulness as a tool because with mindfulness, we're communicating to our bodies. We're here right now and we're safe and my breath is here, my body's right here. So I just think it's a really cool thing to integrate as a way to kind of bring our body out of that memory or out of that space and we're right here. What comes to mind, while it's not deep, deep trauma, it's not big tea trauma, but I have been trying to wake up earlier and the very first morning, I said a 630 alarm, which I know some of them are like, what do you mean? I wake up at five every morning. I am a night owl and I don't like to wake up at the six on the clock that I don't like it. I did it a lot when I was a division one athlete and the very first night, I sat my 630 alarm, I woke up three different times in the middle of the night. I had a dream that I missed the training session. By the way, this is a personal trainer, I pay for 10 minutes a week. If I missed it, no one's running, no one's in trouble. I felt so anxious and that is making me think when you said my body was simulating, we are back on a division one team. There's 12 other girls who are going to be affected if you are late, if you oversleep. I'm like, well, well, no, I'm 28. I could miss this. Yes. That's what you're describing is perfect because our body's job is to protect us and keep us safe. It doesn't matter if it's to protect against a lion in front of us or to not disappoint your team and your coach. It feels like a threat to the body. We remember past circumstances and situations that we had to react in a certain way. We remember that because our bodies, again, just trying to keep us safe and most of our reactions are a window into our past wounds or relationships in some way. That makes actually a lot of sense. I told Meg, everyone knows the two of us is to real pod. Whenever we get on a therapist or an expert, I'm like, and use the shit out of me. I'm like, dig deep, get down, do it. Me just getting free therapy. I wanted to kick this off by asking you, if you had to describe, the quintessential reader. Ironically, perfect person for this type of book. What are some of those probing questions? I would say if you identify as a people pleaser for sure, but I think that is, it can't can manifest as overextending yourself. You have trouble setting boundaries. You have trouble speaking up for your needs and what you're actually feeling. Maybe in relationships, you feel yourself kind of morphing yourself to be what you think the other person wants. With that, avoiding conflict, struggling to be firm in your own sense of self because you just want to be liked and approved of by the other person, which is so normal and safety-seeking. Maybe also feeling drawn to people that are hard to get, feeling like whether it's romantic or in work relationships or friendships, because you feel like I need to work hard to be loved in some way. It shouldn't come easy. And then more internally, I'd say overthinking. You always think people are mad at you. Did I upset someone? Did I say the wrong thing? And with that, maybe it's replaying social interactions after you come home from a party or dinner with friends. Like, did my joke land? Did I upset everyone? Maybe not feeling worthy of accomplishments because you feel like if it was actually hard to do, then I wouldn't be able to do it. So anything I accomplish is, oh, it's whatever, undermining everything we're doing. Always feeling like, am I in trouble? Am I about to get in trouble. Like if your boss messages you and says like, can you chat? You're like, oh my gosh, I'm about to get fired. It's time. I would say that sort of just like hyper vigilance shame feeling. I dedicated the book for those who have kept the piece but lost themselves and this feeling of like, I don't know who I am because I've spent so much of my life pleasing other people. I think it's a really big one as well. That hit me like a ton of bricks when I opened the first pages of your book. It literally says, for those who kept the piece but lost themselves. Oh my gosh. Yeah. It's heavy. Yeah. And I'm sure a lot of people listening right now are nodding long. They're picking up either. That's all of me. She just described me. A lot of those sound like me. So why mag do you think so many people are in that place? Well, I'll start with sort of why I wrote it and then we can move into why do we feel this way? Because I think those two connect. I obviously, I wrote it from a professional clinical therapist lens, but also I couldn't have written it if I didn't feel it too. In some way, my home environment, while there were certainly loving moments as well, there was my dad struggled with addiction and he was quite volatile as a person. My mom's way of coping was through kind of dissociation of like she was quite emotionally distant. And so I found that my way of coping through that was kind of being the perfect kid and being good, making my dad laugh. Just wanting to keep him in a good mood because things could change really fast. I think a child's sense of safety and belonging at home is like their world. And so often a child will just think like what's in my control here? I can focus on my grades, I can focus on managing my parents' moods and not upsetting them. It becomes a source of safety is to focus on that. Just my experience with processing that and processing how I coped through that environment, but also there comes a point where that's really useful, right? Like that was really protective of me to be on edge and are they upset with me? Are they mad at me? But then I found that when I graduated or when I left that environment, I was still thinking that way. Just it was no longer as helpful like maybe analyzing my dad's like speech to see if he had been using or like wondering if he was in a bad mood translated to is my friend mad at me because they put a period in seven exclamation point or you know did I say the wrong thing and over analyzing like that pattern was still within me because that hadn't been processed yet but it was just looking different now. So I think that's really the heart of the book and of my clinical work is like how has this protected you and how is it no longer protecting you? It's an old pattern that was really useful and thank you so much that was so helpful and when am I bringing it into relationships and situations where it's no longer as helpful or I don't need it as much anymore? I love that aha moment of this was developed as a coping mechanism to protect me. Yes. I just grew up realizing if I scan for these emotions, if I can find the solution before them, I can make this a pleasant experience for all and then you get older and you're carrying that wound without ever really realizing because you're like oh well I guess you know it wasn't as bad as my friend Sally's situation so I never thought I had childhood trauma or why I got Christmas presents on December 25 so I can't complain. That is such a common experience is something that I said to one of my first therapists and something I hear all the time is like but it wasn't that bad or like and I'm fine I turned out fine and that's what's really confusing about this sort of stress response called the fauna response which is like just wanting to be appeasing and impressing and proving yourself and being perfect and good is it works and it's like a lot of people who experience this thrive at least on the outside like they have lots of friends they're very well-liked so likeable but want to hear about me. A high achievers really so this isn't to say and I want to always make it so clear this isn't bad it's protective and in some ways it's really useful and sometimes we need it whether it's to get a paycheck whether it's to survive in society and within the oppressive systems that we live within but when we're doing it all the time when we're doing it in relationships and situations that are safe that's when it becomes exhausting and disconnects us from ourselves so this feeling of like well I shouldn't process anything because it wasn't all bad it's never going to be all bad like you can have a really volatile dynamic and there can still be loving moments I talk in my book about how like my dad would snap at me for no reason but then we would sing like dream girls in the car together he was my best friend but he was also really scary at the same time and so just acknowledging that there can be both and invalidating your experiences it's not getting rid of those emotions it's just pushing them down further so the point isn't to stay stuck and think oh it was so bad and but rather to acknowledge our experiences and give ourselves the validation that we need so that we can move forward I can rattle off the dynamics now I love that so much and yeah why not there are so many ways in which the fauna response and what I mean by that is just this tendency of like doing the most and overextending and morphing yourself comes through often and if you grew up in an environment where you were just on edge a lot of the time whether that was your yoda caregiver who is really critical or perfectionistic or emotionally dysregulated you are always managing their emotions and taking care of them because you just wanted to keep the peace that's a really big one and that's more of that feeling of like am I okay or things okay the air is kind of like a held breath in some ways if you had to take on care-taking roles from a young age for whatever reason whether it's for a sibling or for a parent if you were often criticized for feeling certain emotions or you're like you you're being so dramatic or you're so sensitive and maybe your caregiver was allowed to feel those emotions but you were punished for feeling them I say this just quite neutrally of like just describing an environment or like of course this also means yes our parents are in pain and like going through their own things that are making them react in a certain way so this is just to describe it well they didn't have podcasts like this to listen to that it happens like yours to read yes so I do think there needs to be a lot of compassion for the generations that were never allowed to feel yeah and who didn't learn how to feel and while it sucks to be breaking the generational trauma or cycles and like carry that weight also it's an empowering thing to know you're going to be the domino that falls in a completely different direction absolutely it's a lot of things we have language for these things now we have a lot more information available to us and so yeah it's the lens isn't coming from a place of blame but understanding so that we can move forward and break those cycles I find that many children and people who experience some sort of volatility in some way or uncertainty or whatever so many of us will overlook so many things just to have that close relationship with a parent like we want that we want to have a parent in our lives and so I think often what ends up feeling hurtful is when that's being communicated but it's still it happens again and again and again you eventually have to decide can I accept this yeah and live with it or you're not able to because it's so frustrating or triggering or whatever it is yeah that you then have to be the one who sets boundaries or walks away to which they get upset at you or reacting to their behavior yeah I always say it's like having an honest conversation or expressing an emotion to someone in a of course still a kind open way but it's either going to lead to closeness in the relationship because it's like wow honey thank you so much for telling me that I'm so glad I I know that now and like how can I better support you or it'll lead to clarity clarity around okay I can't have these types of conversations with my parent and or anyone whoever it is and so now what like what do I need to be okay do I need to release expectations around this person and it doesn't have to be black or white of you're talking to them every day or not talking at all it can just be like how can I make this work how can I have a relationship whatever that looks like okay there is a growing body of research that is coming out now revealing that optimal health outcomes occur at sodium levels two to three times government recommendations which is wild and when we are deficient in electrolytes or have an electrolyte in balance we can experience headaches cramps fatigue brain fog or weakness and water alone cannot solve all those problems 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I just feel so grounded having the opportunity to take an hour that is for me and to focus on the things I might be struggling with and to talk them through with a professional. And with over 30,000 therapists, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform having served over five million people globally. And it works with an average rating of 4.9 out of five stars for a live session based on over 1.7 million client reviews. The first time I ever had a BetterHelp appointment, it was so seamless and easy. And BetterHelp therapists, of course, work according to a strict code of conduct and are fully licensed in the US. Not to mention, BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. It's a short questionnaire that helps identify your needs and preferences. And then using there more than 12 years of experience in industry leading match fulfillment rate, they typically get it right the first time. But if you aren't happy with your match, you can switch therapists at any time from their tailored wrecks for no additional charge. If you're ready to find the right therapist for you, BetterHelp can help you start that journey. RealPod listeners get 10% off their first month at BetterHelp.com/RealPod. That's BetterHelp, BetterHELP.com/RealPod. So if you're ready to find the right therapist for you, head to BetterHelp.com/RealPod where you will get 10% off your first month. So much of this is so eye-opening, especially when it comes to family dynamics and close relationships. And then also a lot of your work that's been really intriguing to me has just been a general commentary on society and the way that we're expected to behave, especially women. And you have this, I guess, archetype called a good girl. Can you define what it means to be a good girl? Yeah, I would say the good girl is someone who is just so hyper attuned to what other people are thinking of them where it disconnects us from who we really are. Where we're overextending ourselves, we are morphing ourselves to be liked and to be seen as good. And maybe that means saying, yeah, no worries if not, but then on the inside we're feeling resentful. And we're like, oh my god, I can't believe it. We're having fake arguments in our head because we just want to be seen as good. So we end up abandoning ourselves in the process. I think this is such a common behavior and yet so under-recognized because we are applauded for being good. Oh, you're so easy. You're such a good girl from such a young age. This makes me think of a passage in your book that literally is just sums up hours of therapy that I've had. And I wanted to read it. Thank you. So this is on page 178 for anyone who has the book. And it says, when someone doesn't like you, instead of asking, what should I do to make them like me? You can instead ask, how can I soothe myself through the discomfort of them not liking me? You are not responsible for the version of you that exists in other people's minds. You can't control how others perceive you but you can manage how much mental space you give their perceptions. I mean, mic drop, first of all. But it is so eye-opening to have that laid out in such a way because I'm always like, no, they need to like me. They need to like me. And it's like, but what if they don't? I had a situation at a pregame recently. I talked about this in therapy. It's that my friends, I was meeting their friends. And there were just a few things that came out of my mouth that were so well intended, but like didn't land. And actually to give an example, I was talking to someone who was single. And mind you, we're like, you know, I'm under the influence to find my way out. Like it's all light and loosey. It's flowing. And there was a few single girls who were like going out and talking to guys and going all around the party. And then this other single girl was just keeping more to herself and giving really iconic, like I will attract energy. I loved that because that could never be me. Like, so I went to give her a compliment. And I was like, I love your, like, I'm just going to do me energy. And I said, because if I was single, I'd be freaking out. And I meant that so genuinely, but as I started to like overthink the shit out of it, I was like, did she take that as a commentary of, I can't believe you're not freaking out because if I'm single at this age, I'd be freaking out. And that's not how I meant it. But because I have been doing so much of this work, I remember like five, 10 minutes later, as I'm still thinking about it, just thinking, you know what? I know that I did not mean it that way. And if she took it that way, she took it that way. And like, I have to accept that she might leave and say, I didn't like that Victoria girl. And I would rather have the peace of enjoying the rest of this party than be super consumed by how she interpreted me for sure. It's also funny because we don't actually know what she thought of that. She could have been like, thanks. She could have just been like, okay, moved on with her night or she could have been thinking about it. We don't know, but this idea that we as good girls as people pleasers, we try to control how people are perceiving us and almost like controlling the narrative in some ways as a way to feel safe. Because if they think I'm good, then I will feel okay. I won't feel uncomfortable. And so so much of our energy is like saying the right thing or, you know, responding in the quote right way so that we can keep that narrative in our control. And I think the uncomfortable truth is that we never had control in the first place. People were always perceiving us through the lens of their own in our world. It moves away from, how do I control this? To yeah, how do I soothe myself through the discomfort of it? Because it's just inevitable. I think the closer we get to ourselves and the more we feel like we are us, some people may not like that. And that's uncomfortable when all of our safety historically has been found through being liked. And it's just so hard to think that someone might think negatively of you. And if I see her again, which I hope I do, she's awesome, like not going to bring up. Hey, I'm just thinking about this one thing for sure. And there are sometimes I would do that, but I view this as like a level tour where I truly think it is just my brain doing the most. And I do need to expose myself to the fact that like, I don't need to explain and apologize and try to like soothe. I think often when we we're wanting to over explain ourselves to be understood, right? And that often does start in childhood. I find that often if someone has a tendency to over explain it's because they didn't feel heard growing up. So it's like, let me show you everything that I meant and was thinking and feeling so that you get the full picture and now you can't misunderstand me. It's this preventative measure that we're taking and this acceptance of like, and still even if you were to lay out all the facts. Hey, I'm so sorry. This is what I meant by it and this and this and this. She's still going to see it through her own lens. She could, she could change her mind. She could not. Gosh, I felt something in my heart when you were talking about being understood because we all want that like we want to be understood so badly. And I feel often very misunderstood for someone who's like very hard on my sleeve, very outgoing, very communicative, but still not sure why I don't feel connected to you on that deeper level. And I do feel so grateful to have that with my close group. But I would say in general, no, I don't feel like when most people are talking to me or like hanging out with me, they like know me, my people do. And I'm like, I said, I'm glad that I have that. But to take accountability, do I feel like they don't know me because I know I'm performing or I'm putting on a version of me that isn't the like core me that I feel isn't my truest me. And I don't think I'm being fake. But it's like I definitely am wanting everyone to have such a good experience with me. I think a lot of people can relate to wanting everyone to just have a pleasant experience with you when they text you, when they're on the phone with you, when they're with you. But in doing that, you don't have a pleasant experience because all you're doing is prioritizing their experience, you know. And sometimes they think about how much time, energy, and effort I put into my friends. And I'm like, can I get it back? So with this sort of good girl conditioning fond response, are you mad at me thinking? What you're speaking to is actually really common of this feeling of, and I talk about this in my book where I'm like, am I just a medley of other people's personalities? Like, who am I when I'm not performing or trying to be liked? It can bring a lot of shame of like, am I fake? Am I just trying to be what other people want me to be? And so this feeling of people pleasing can make us feel like performers. And I have an archetype in my book called The Performer. And it can leave us feeling quite emotionally distant in our relationships because we're wanting to show people the best version of ourselves, the version of ourselves where we're on. And maybe the version that we think the other person wants to see, it's the fear of being like, yeah, I don't know, rejected or not liked. I do think the career has a huge part. And if someone not liking one interaction with me could be them like, never wanna support anything I do for the rest of my life because my brand is me. Yeah, I'm having some epiphany. Is that I hope people listening are as well? And I have many exposures like that I try to do. Yeah. Where I'm like, okay, I'm gonna ask a few questions about her trip, but I'm not gonna ask 20 because 20 is what the perfect friend would do. For sure. But I really only care to ask three. Amazing. And when my friend asks me how I am, I'm gonna hold the mic for 10 minutes. For sure. Because they hold the mic for 10 minutes. So I have been like trying to get more comfortable with that. If someone is resonating with this, what is one thing Meg that they could try this week? Yeah. To start testing the water, stop self abandoning and getting more comfortable. Yes. Well, people please saying it's an often an unconscious response. Like we don't know we're doing it a lot of the time. That shift that you might feel when someone walks through the room that you don't know and you feel this need to like prove yourself to them or impress them, that's happening unconsciously. We don't know we're doing it a lot of the time. So I'd say the first step is always bringing it into the conscious mind. All that means is becoming aware of it. Notice yourself doing it. The next time you go out to dinner or you go to a party, notice yourself. I like how you said that. Like asking 20 questions instead of what you wanna ask, which is just three. Like when do you find yourself doing the most when you don't need to be? And something that's important to say with that is people pleasing really makes us so hybrid tuned to what do they feel, what do they want, what do they need? And it disconnects us from what do I want, what do I need, what do I feel right now? And it's not that we're only focusing on ourselves but we're being connected to ourselves while being in the world and while being in relationship to other people. And the beautiful thing is that when we are connected to ourselves, we are better friends. We are better partners because otherwise we're feeling resentful, we're feeling burnt out. Becoming aware of this pattern allows us to show up in those relationships more authentically and on a closer level in the long term. It's much more sustainable. So to become aware of it, to notice it and that really just starts with a pause. And even if you continue to then over-explain yourself, all good, you noticed it. You're already breaking the cycle just by becoming aware of it. And I would also say to take it a step further, I have an acronym in the book called NICER, which is just this mindfulness technique to kind of acknowledge the emotion or the anxious thought and to come back to ourselves and begin to soothe ourselves. What is the nicer acronym? So it's first noticing, notice what you're feeling. Okay, I'm acknowledging just that something has shifted. So maybe it's like that person who you don't know walks in the room and you feel that guard come up. Okay, just notice that happened. That shift has happened. And then it's I inviting it to stay. This is allowed to be here. I'm allowed to feel this. This doesn't need to go anywhere. And I put that in because it's often our instinct to shove it down like I shouldn't be angry. I shouldn't be upset. It's okay, it's just an emotion here. And then having C curiosity about it, what is this? Okay, I'm feeling anxious or I'm feeling resentful. And are there sensations in my body that go with this being curious about what's coming up for you? And then E embracing it, I think is often the most uncomfortable step for people of having some compassion for that emotion of like, I'm safe. It's okay that I'm feeling this. As if you're like really physically embracing this emotion. Like this is allowed to stay. And then R is returning to what's real and true right now. So after we've gone through that scenario, after we've gone through that anxiety or anxious thought, okay, what's actually happening right now? I'm breathing in my body. My hips are on the seat. I'm noticing any sounds in the room. So it's really just like a process to take ourselves through when we're caught up in the anxiety. I love that. And there's so many things happening in our mind that to have a handy dandy acronym can help us walk it through so nicer. We all need to remember that. If you have not yet tried the sheets, the pajamas, the blankets, the towels, if you haven't tried anything from Cozy Earth, what are you waiting for? Because I am truly, truly obsessed with Cozy Earth. It is just the best. Everything that they make is so luxurious, so soft, so cozy, hence the name. 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You can find crunchmaster at a store near you. There are so many incredible flavors. I know you're gonna find probably more than one that you love. So make sure you keep your eye out for crunchmaster at a store near you. Enjoy, happy snacking. If we are feeling empowered and we're making changes, the chances are we are going to say no to someone. We are going to set a boundary. We are going to not over-explain ourselves. So I thought it could be helpful if you could provide a framework to respond to someone when we know we're not giving them the answer they want. So if I were to tee you up and say, it's a friend saying, oh, hi, Meg. So are you gonna come to my bridal shower on Saturday all day and then out to dinner with me and my family after? And then sleep over and then stay all day Sunday. So we can talk all about it. And in this example, what do I actually want to be doing? What's the, or do I get, am I deciding that? In this example, you are gonna go to the bridal shower. But you might not be able to stay the whole time and you definitely cannot go to dinner with the family. Perfect. Great, I am so relieved. I would say first of all, I think it's a people pleaser's tendency to white lie a little bit. Totally. Oh, you know, this is my mom, literally the other day. She was like, I was invited out to dinner and I just, I didn't want to go. She just, she likes her alone time, of course. So I said blah, blah, blah. I'm like, just tell them I love you guys. I'm not up for it. They love you. So I'm doing it to her. Meanwhile, I can't do it to my people. Of course. Well, it's easier because you're seeing it clearly when it's happening to someone else. So. noticing that tendency to white lie. Why are we doing that? We're doing that to avoid discomfort. We're avoiding upsetting someone or us feeling bad or guilty or shameful for speaking our needs because we don't think we deserve to have needs. That's usually where that's coming from. And so it can be uncomfortable to be honest. I fear we've overcompensated with boundaries a little bit where we hear about it in really extreme harsh ways. Yes, they can be used to protect us in relationships that are harmful, but they're also used to strengthen our relationships as well because they're really saying to the other person, this is what I need and I'm letting you in on that. And that to me is such a form of emotional intimacy. Yeah, I want you in my life. I want to be close to you. And this is the way that I want it. Exactly. That's perfectly set. It's like I'm showing you how we can be friends for a lifetime. That means probably not spending 13 hours with you. How about four hours? And then we'll go from there. It really does strengthen our relationships because it prevents resentment from happening. People pleasing isn't compassionate. Compassionate is authentic kindness. I'm saying this because I mean it. And so it's being true to our word. And I think we often hear about boundaries as these kind of like chat GBT responses of like, I don't have the capacity to be doing this. And if that feels true to you, go ahead, say it. But like I know for me, that doesn't feel like my voice. So I think catering it in a way that feels authentic to you. And just by doing that, you're already healing this people pleasing because you're connecting with yourself. What does feel like me, you know? So maybe in that situation, I would say something like, thank you so much for inviting me. I'm so excited to see you. I'm only able to come to the bridal shower and maybe like I have to head out at this time, but so excited to see you and can't wait. Like, right. I think you don't need to explain why you can't go to the dinner. Yeah. If you want to go ahead, but I think first tune into why. That to me is another step that listeners can take away, pausing and asking yourself, why am I doing this? Am I doing this for me? Am I doing this because I want them to know this information? Or am I doing this to kind of control the narrative? So again, there's nuance. It's going to look different in each circumstance, but really pausing and going inward of what do I think? What do I feel? Why am I doing this? I think is really important in that. They often say with people pleasers, when you choose to not disappoint someone else, you disappoint yourself. Yeah. And then you're there like exhausted with no social battery, didn't get your weekend behind, you know, didn't do what you wanted. And it's like, you don't even realize that you're passively disappointing yourself. Of course, I talk in the book about how we try to keep the peace by avoiding conflicts, but we create so much more conflict within ourselves. We create so much more tension within ourselves. And so much of this is just to avoid short term discomfort, right? We don't want them to be disappointed. We don't want to feel guilty for saying no. And again, like we talked about like long term, what's happening? Resentment festers. Resentment builds and anger builds. And then we have fake arguments and we're in the shower and we're having a fight with our friend that never even happened. Practicing clear, honest, direct communication, major emphasis here in relationships that feel safe is so important. And I say that I emphasize the safe part because let's be real. There are relationships in our lives where we can't do that. Another step for people to take to practice expressing your needs, expressing your emotions to people that feel safe to you in a small way. That is the best starting point because when we can take in small bites of discomfort, we're not like shocking the body. I would never tell a client, yeah, your first boundary ever, definitely do it with your like volatile parent. No freaking way because it would not go well. They would be like, this is why people please, what are we doing? Start with situations that feel safe and small so that we're not shocking the nervous system. So it's maybe it's saying to your best friend, you know, you're exhausted, they want to chat on the phone, hey, I have 30 minutes, what's up? Like putting some parameters around how long you're talking for. It doesn't have to be a big deal. It can just be a simple small acknowledgement. I love that so much. What do you recommend someone can say? Who wants to communicate their growth without sounding accusatory or condescending? You just want to let that close person in your life know, yeah, I might be doing things a little differently. I love that. I think that's so thoughtful to ask because you're right. All we've done is people please and then we suddenly start saying no, people might be confused like we like what's familiar. So I think often when people have reactions to us expressing our needs, it's often just because it's unfamiliar and they're like, whoa, this isn't the scripts that I know from you and so that makes sense and that's expected. I don't know, I think it depends on the relationship. I think it could be like, I've been talking about this with my therapist and this is something that I'm really trying to work on and I think letting them into the vulnerability that it's uncomfortable. I think it's helpful where it's not coming from a place of being mean or harsh. I find myself constantly depleted and I'm just being more mindful about not over committing. But I know we'll see each other this month. Absolutely. I think that is always the win. My husband Max always gives me the best advice when it comes to conflict with another person and he always just says, level with me. We both wanted to be this way. We got different things. It's, you know what I mean, when you take that approach, you just totally defuse it and it's not like, hey, you're doing this wrong or I want this. I just think the level with me works in every situation. I think so often that's what we want to hear is an acknowledgement of what's happening, but also that level with me like we're on the same team. We want the same thing and I think that's where reframing conflict and what I mean by conflict is just like a little bit of friction or like not seeing eye to eye. It's inevitable in any healthy safe relationship because if there's a little bit of conflict, all that means is that both people are allowed to be themselves. Yeah. And there's enough space and safety in the relationship for both people to exist. And that is such an important thing versus if you're people pleasing and you're contorting yourself to be what they want, is that sustainable because where did you go in that? This is reminding me of something that happened recently in my life where I felt so loved in a moment of imperfection. And if you're a people-pleaser, you obviously feel like you need to be perfect to be loved. Even though I know that like on paper, it's not, but it's for me. But my best friend Aubrey, her dad passed away when we were young and every single year I've sent her flowers on his passing date. And this year, I forgot. I was on a trip with Max's family. I just wasn't on my calendar. I didn't even know if it was Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Like I just, I checked out any other time. I know the date by heart. I never missed a year. I was the next day when we left the trip and we're on the airport. And I saw something on Instagram and I literally had my heart dropped. And I started to cry. And I was like, to Max, I was like, oh my god, I can't believe I forgot this day because you just feel like a bad friend. So I texted her something. I'm so sorry, I forgot about yesterday. I hope you had a nice date with Wood. I want to hear about it, whatever. And it's like, she responded, oh my gosh, please don't worry at all. I swear, I almost didn't post my Instagram because I knew you would feel terrible. And she was just so sweet and loving. And yeah, it was just a nice breath of like, oh my gosh, hey, I fucked up as a friend. And she still loves me. Yeah. And we fuck up sometimes. And like we're human. And that even made me feel like, obviously, I appreciate her to death, but even so much more appreciative on that day of like, yeah, okay, I don't need to be in this like, can't do anything wrong mode with my best friend. I'm so glad you shared that. And I think it's a beautiful example of the power of acknowledgement, like even just naming it and turns out, oh, it's okay. It's no problem. I think for many of us that like witnessed conflict in a really big way, people are yelling or slamming doors or they're a silent treatment or like things are just brushed into the rug and never talked about again. We often as adults associate when there's any sort of conflict in a friendship, often the mind will go to it's over. They hate me. I'm the worst. I'm going to be abandoned. The relationship is ruined because conflict or friction or, you know, mess ups, they were big growing up. Like we didn't witness repair happening. We didn't witness that like after conflict, we can come together and be even closer than we were before. So when that's happening as adults, I think that often creates this need to be perfect in relationships because if you never mess up, you won't ever be abandoned. If you never mess up, you won't ever be rejected. So we hold ourselves to these perfectionistic standards. So I actually think it can be so healing to fuck up sometimes in our relationships because we can show ourselves, oh my god, I made a mistake, big or small, and they're still here. My friend still loves me. Right. And like actually maybe it wasn't even a fuck up at all. Maybe it was just like, I'm being a person. And it is scary to have that first disagreement or that first conflict with the friend. I love what you said earlier. You said, you're either going to get closer or you need clarity. Yeah. And both of those things are beneficial. Of course. Meg, thank you so much. This was so much a great conversation. And I just feel like there were so many incredible nuggets. And I hope everyone goes and reads, are you mad at me if they haven't already? Because this is what the people need. I hope so. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of RealPod. If this hit home or helped you in some way, send it to a friend, a teammate, Rumi. Share the love, share the realness. New episodes of RealPod come out every single Wednesday. So make sure you are subscribed to this podcast so you never miss an episode. To leave a rating or a review of the show, head to iTunes and let me know what you think. I love hearing from you. Not to mention, you can stay connected with RealPod throughout the week, seeing behind the scenes info and sneak previews of upcoming guests by following the @RealPod account on Instagram. All information about today's show and guests will be linked in the description of this episode. Thanks again for listening. I love you guys so, so much. Let's go dominate the day and, as always, keep it real. Please note that this episode may contain paid endorsements and advertisements for products and services. Individuals on the show may have a direct or indirect financial interest in products or services referred to in this episode. Hi, I'm Mary Alice Haney. And I'm Dr. Tais Aliyabadi. Dr. A, as she is known, is a world-renowned OBGYN. And together, we're launching a new podcast. She MD to empower women to become their own health advocate. We're providing women with the knowledge and tools to really own their own health. With celebrity guests and today's leading experts, we're dropping episodes every Tuesday. So listen and subscribe on YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode.