How to Understand Women and Lead With Real Masculinity w/Teal Swan #513

During my 11-year tenure with on it, we created a lot of revolutionary formulas, none more revolutionary than our flagship alpha brain. It's a product that I take every single day, still, to this day. And then after I sold on it in 2021, I came across a particular ingredient. It's a metabolite of caffeine, which means that it's something that the body naturally breaks caffeine down into. And it's called perazantine. And then I found that ingredient and I said, "Huh? This is doing a lot of what I wish caffeine would do. But it's not having the negative effects that I experience with caffeine. It's making me feel more alive, more energized, more clear in my mind. But it's also not sending me down that caffeine roller coaster." And then I said, "Huh? What if we surrounded this with the best natural ingredients to create a really revolutionary formula, and we did it?" And so I created a new company called Correct with a K, housed on correct.life, called Correct Energy. And it's absolutely as much of a revolution as alpha brain ever was. Alpha brain worked on the acetylcholine neurotransmitter, designed to give you more focus. And this works on the dopamine pathway, which is really like the go mechanism for the body. So whether you're working out, working hard, writing, anything that you're doing, playing with your kids, correct energy is going to be an absolute revolution in how you're able to interact with life, with the vim and vigor and passion that you know is truly you. One of the things about this product is it just feels like you have more of you available. It doesn't change who you are, it doesn't change your mindset, it just gives you more of the best of yourself. So if you're interested, check it out at correct.life. Tio, good to see you. Can we hear? What is your experience in trusting men with power? My personal experience is it hadn't gone so well. It hasn't gone so well for me personally and hasn't gone so well for humanity so far. But I'm not in the position where I feel like that means that men should not be in positions of power. That's probably what sets me apart from where the mainstream is today. So where do you think the story has gone awry for men? What are men forgetting? What is the thing that men have forgotten and lost that's preventing them from reaching their highest potential infarition? That the privilege of power is the well-being of others to care-take those that are in your care. Which is also the single biggest, I should say, highest expression of masculinity. So where men basically took things when they got into power is that they didn't really care-take the best interests of others? So would you say that it was a service to self-orientation, which is extractive of the whole in service of the self? And that's where the story for masculinity has gone awry. Yes, that's what I would say. But I would also say that it's very difficult when you're dealing with a human ego to really see that you're doing something for yourself. I see a lot of men who are in positions of power justifying things they're doing for incredibly self-centered means, but telling themselves the story that it's for some cause or for some other. So it's very easy to dilute oneself into thinking that one is doing good. I mean, all of us are socialized and all human beings that are socialized are specifically taught not to be self-centered. So we have to kind of sneak our self-centered motives into other stories we like to tell ourselves, and that's definitely happening. Yeah, I mean, there's the capitalism, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, and I think it's the perception of good intentions that allows people to actually act out on their shadow impulses of servicing themselves. Oh, yeah. But I mean, most people don't operate through the world with that kind of question in their minds. I feel like there's a degree of doubt that one should keep as their bed fellow walking through life. I think all of our actions should be measured against is this truly the best interest of the other person or other people plural. Is it truly something that I'm doing, where is my, what am I getting out of it? Where is the me in this whole picture too? I feel like when we operate with that type of mentality and we operate with a little bit of a seat of doubt, we become safer. Yeah, that doubt is a form of humility, and the humility is to recognize that we have so many biases, so many heuristics, so many ways in which we can dilute and confuse and deceive ourselves that the humility is to be aware that that could be operating at any point, and then to be willing, and actually excited to find out like, oh wow, I could have been better. I'm going to, I'll tell you, I'll tell you a quick story for me. So it was my fourth time drinking ayahuasca with my straw lanochu and dama. His name is the dragon of the jungle, and I had a visitation from a dragon, and this is a giant dragon made of smoke, and the dragon comes and his face filled up my entire vision scape just his face along. And he said, do you want power? And I was kind of taking him back, and I said, yes, and the dragon said, why? And I thought about it for a second, and I said, to help people. And then the dragon said, are you sure? And it showed me, and I jumped on his back, and it showed me all of the ways where I was using power for either mixed motives, some part helping myself, some part helping other people, some part just helping myself pretending that I was helping other people, and it's been a powerful lesson that's helped guide me on this path. And I remember that, and I keep that vision close, and I think it speaks very much to what you're saying. Oh, yeah, that's completely an only move, what I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Now, if we flip it, and go to the other side, where do you think, what is the one thing, or one of the main things that you think women, how women are misunderstood in culture, how women, or what women may have in their shadow, that they could actually transform to become the best versions of themselves? These are two very, well, not necessarily completely different questions, but as standalone, spring me back to the shadow if I don't go there, because the first thing that I know that society does not really understand about women or answer to is their need for masculine containment. And the biggest element of that containment being an answer to the fear, the fear that they're feeling like all the time, I don't think that most people in general, most especially most men understand the level of fear that women are operating from like all the time. They're operating from like a baseline of unsafety. And if people really were doing the right thing with women, they'd be answering to this unsafety. They would be out ahead of their unsafety. Like the men who do by far the best with women are the ones who are always out ahead of the women's unsafety. But unsafety is not just the way that men tend to see it, men tend to see it very simply kind of like, oh, I understand physically protecting a woman. And no, the unsafety you got to answer to is essentially anything that falls into the category of like protecting a woman's sense of peace. So there's a huge emotional component to this. There's a mental component to this. And so to protect a woman's sense of peace on a mental emotional and physical level, puts her in the state where she essentially blossoms into these feminine expressions that all people are so desperately in need of. But let's look at women from the other side of this. There's this major shadow that women hold, which is all the manifestations of of codependency, which is really the drive for confidence. Confluence, in order to understand this concept, you can think about two rivers that are coming together and kind of running in parallel with each other. Women have a very, very deep drive for confidence. But that deep drive for confluence and even we could say that deep need for containment often drives them to a place where they're giving very crucial elements of themselves up for the sake of whatever confluence they're trying to get in a relationship. So we have abandonment of authenticity, we have manipulation tactics, we've got victim control, we've got like within that kind of container of codependent behaviors, we've got a lot of negative manifestations of the feminine. Now you use specifically the language of containment, and I'd love for you to, you know, I know you've talked about this before in several places, but I'm curious as to why you chose that particular word as the description of what women need. What is the word containment and why did you choose that word? Well, I chose that word because in therapeutic settings, we love to talk about a safe container. It's like a word that's, it's like a term that's used a lot, right, in therapeutic circles. So it seemed a natural carryover because it's the same type of a concept of creating a safe container, only a man doing that for a woman out in the world. Or I should say, in an ideal setting, men plural are doing this for women plural, right? So the best way, you know, I was thinking about like different metaphors for how the masculine relates to the feminine, one of those being my personal favorite, which is to think about this clam shell that's around that sort of flashy part of the clam or to think about a bowl that's holding water. And in all of these examples, they are containers. And where I run into a problem is that, you know, the word containment itself for some people conjures up the concept of control, like keeping something where it doesn't want to be more restriction. Yeah, exactly. But I mean, the word itself, it doesn't necessarily have to mean, nor does it mean that many settings are many different uses. Yeah. Yeah. No, I can, I can understand that. You know, the language that I'm, I'm more familiar with is protection and provision. So, but which is a type of containment, but that can also be oversimplified to physical protection and provision oversimplified to material providing of financial or other types of support, but there's something much deeper and it's the emotional element of that that I think you're speaking to with containment. Containment as a concept, masculine containment as a concept contains many ingredients. You've just mentioned like two of them basically of which there are many more. So, what are the other ones? What are the other ones? Okay. So, the first one is to put your energy around a woman. This is something that I think is is really underrated for the mainstream world, which is not particularly esoterically tapped in even though we all have the sensitivity to it. But when a man essentially takes positive ownership, we're about to get to that as the second element and takes positive ownership over a woman in his life, he puts his energy around her and that is something that can be sensed. And that's the primary barrier that a man puts around a woman in the world, or if he has children, his children, whatever is in his container. That second element is positive ownership. The other trigger, big time trigger word that I'm using for people. However, I really, I've looked at this very deeply and I would like to bring back the positive relationship with ownership. Another word we like to use in a positive way in certain circles, right? But positive ownership is what prevents causing something harm. That's why it is so incredibly important. It's like when you think about a man who owns a car, right? He takes ownership over his car. Now, I don't mean to compare women to objects, but most people can only relate to the positive expressions of ownership when they think about a man with his car. If he really cares about his car, this is a car guy, right? He's rubbing his car with diapers. He's learning everything he possibly can learn about the car so he's responding perfectly and correctly to it. He's changing the tires. What you watch with this man is he's taking a lot of ownership over the well-being of this thing. And obviously, if you're going to have positive ownership towards a living being, it doesn't take on the expression of object ownership. Like, you have to recognize that the thing that's in your car has free will. And that's an element of the positive ownership that you are showing towards that thing. But the important element of ownership is that if you take something as a part of you, really in claim it in that way, you can't go against this best interest without harming your own best interests. And that is your safety mechanism right there for a relationship in general. And that right there, we could say that the positive ownership is not what men in the past have displayed towards women, almost generalizing now, because there were some men that definitely did. But we wouldn't have had the women's race movement and things like this. If men did a very good job of this positive ownership dynamic, in fact, they went more towards object ownership with this and did not actually take the best interest of the women in their care as a part of their own, and so they could go against them and think that it wouldn't harm them in any way. And now we see the five products of all that. So that next element of containment that's important is responsibility for her well being that goes hand in hand with the concept of ownership. But we're living in a day and age when the concept of taking responsibility for each other is without the window. And I'm saying this is where society goes to die. The moment that we say you're responsible for you, I'm responsible for me. We are no longer going to take responsibility for each other. Hello, you're basically fighting for you're fighting for all kinds of problems within society and also the weakening of society in a way where it can be taken over by a totalitarianism. The next element of containment would be something like attunement and understanding. One of the things that I tell men to do with women is to stop trying to love them and start trying to understand them because the deeper understanding you have for something that's in your care, the better you can demonstrate love in a way that is received. I want to run around kind of not knowing what to do with the women in her life because they're not actually putting the type of energy into deeply understanding a woman that they do into other things. And this is where I kind of love to call men out because if you take even just the average guy when he really becomes obsessed with something. It's like his life is about it, you know, if I talk to somebody who's obsessed with kite surfing, he's pouring all of his energy into trying to understand kite surfing every different element possible. And then he's not confused about how to kite surf and now men are not exhibiting that same behavior towards women in general and towards the woman specifically, like if you're in a, doesn't matter, monogamous relationship, polyamorous relationship towards whatever woman is in your life, specifically in a romantic relationship, most men are not pouring energy into really trying to understand that person. And so they can't provide quality containment for them because if you don't understand something, you're not actually going to take the right actions for that specific thing. The good example that I have for this is like a person with a jellyfish, like say that a person loves a jellyfish, but they don't put time into understanding that jellyfish, they may try to love that jellyfish in the way that they themselves would feel loved. So they pick it up out of the water, they cuddle it in the blanket, now pretty soon the jellyfish is dead and they're kind of being like, I don't know what happened, you know. So, you know, under attunement is something that helps that understanding in a deep way because it is to deeply tune into the other to see into them, feeling to them. Here are them, you get the point, right? So this is basically to deeply perceive someone. The next element of containment is going to be responsiveness. This should be self-explanatory, but let's say that you're getting cues from a woman, there needs to be a response to those cues. And a woman is giving cues like all the time, like all the time through the tonality in her voice, through her body language, through the things she's directly saying. You're constantly getting feedback from a woman and there are highly responsive beings and so it's very important to notice those things and to be responsive to them. So, let's say that you're driving really fast and you've got her sort of clutching the side of the, not in a good way, clutching the side of the car. If you continue to keep driving, you're not being responsive. I'm trying to teach men to be hyper-attuned to women and not be completely dependent on them being straightforward. At the same time as I am trying to teach women how to be completely straightforward, I need to approach this from two different angles. This is the struggle with me doing what I'm doing right now, which is trying to really teach male-female relationships is that it's like you can't bring the teaching together yet. You have to teach women separately from men because of the nature of both. How do you want to go into these qualities? I definitely want to go deep and explore all of this. It seems like this attunement is a skill that can be used bilaterally. Both men and women can actually take the time to understand each other more deeply. That forges the depths of intimacy I think we're all looking for. For sure. One of the ways that I've heard a person be described is also to think of ourselves as a unique configuration of desires. We're a unique configuration of desires. We each have a telos, we each have a desire palette, whether that's an erotic palette or a desire to impact the world in a certain way or we have a unique configuration of desires, so really understanding each other's unique configuration of desires. What is it that each person wants? That's a big key to opening and unlocking these greater depths that provides that unfuckable intimacy that I think we're all looking for. I will continue on the journey. I want to keep going here as to what you're seeing. After responsiveness, you've got providing safety and security. That's the most self-explanatory one. That's the one that most men are the most familiar with in their relationship with women. My job here is essentially to create that safety and security. Like I said before, it's more complicated than most men make it because it's about the preservation of a woman's sense of well-being. That goes beyond just, is she physically being attacked by a saber tooth? Okay, the next element that would be after that one would be like availability and support. So obviously the masculine expression of support looks a certain way. It looks a lot like encouragement. It looks a lot like something that pertains to growth, but as it applies to especially male female relationships, it's about availability. And this applies regardless of whether you have a job that makes you not available. You've got to basically give a woman the sense that she can have access to you. As a man, let's say that I'm in a relationship with a woman. I have got to give her a sense that I am there for her and I am there with her. And given that I am her container in this world, she can always come to me. When you give a woman that level of security, there's a relaxation in the being that allows for autonomy and a lot of men don't understand the power of this, because there's this paradox effect in relationships where the more secure the relationship is, the more autonomy that relationship can tolerate. So men who are dealing with grade four cleaners are usually the ones who are not giving that particular message. In fact, they're trying to assert their autonomy and push a woman away. Well, that says I'm not available to you. That says I'm not, I'm not your container. You can't access me. And so, you know, basically puts a woman in a position where she has no shell. That next element would be providing like a structure direction and leadership. These three things that go very much together because that structure is very much like a plan, right, which goes hand in hand with directing and leading things. And this is somewhere that is very interesting for me to talk about with men because there's this major misconception that women should be the ones leading relationship. And this is not true at all. It is in fact the the male in a male female relationship that should be leading the relationship. And that was understood throughout all of history until the industrial revolution. So, a relationship is not going to go well unless it is the male who is providing that structure direction and leadership in general, but for the relationship specifically. I've always been a collector since I was a kid. Whether it was sports cards, magic cards, comics, stamps, or coins. And as I've gotten older, I've transitioned to collecting original art. I also believe in precious metals as one of the safest and most stable stores of wealth. The impossibly cool thing about my new company metal mark as part of the Aubrey Mark is collective is that it combines both of these things that I love. Fully assayable and recoverable fractional gold notes paired with impossibly beautiful, cool, and collectible limited edition art. So for some reason you don't like the art anymore or the art loses its value, you can always just keep the gold. If any other class of art loses its value, all you are left with is paper or in the case of NFTs pixels and if you are just starting and collecting gold. Instead of having to drop $2,700 on a coin like this, you can get in for less than a Benjamin. The next element would be creating and or managing. You want to stay there? Yeah, I want to pause there for a moment. I think one of the things that I've noticed there's been many great beautiful aspects of the women's empowerment movement. It's been necessary, important. It's beautiful. And there's so many powerful women who are acting out in their masculine qualities and attributes. And just in through my own observation, they tend to find themselves with partners who are exhibiting more feminine qualities, I would say. And then the powerful women then complain and say, I really want a king. But actually there they've stepped into the role of the king and they're so strong in their thrust into the world and into their life that actually what they need is a queen. And actually what erotically they're desiring is a king. So do you see that? Do you see that this this is happening when you observe? Yes, I spend a lot of my time talking to it. But women women are not this is the thing that I don't think most men understand. There's a confusion because the only template that women have had for power is masculine power. There is no longer a template for feminine empowerment. So when women step into their power, they are stepping into a masculine expression. It's not necessarily that they want to, right? And so it's not like women in their empowerment or then are sort of frustrated they don't have what they want. It's that a woman in a masculine frame by definition doesn't have her needs met, doesn't have what she wants. So I like this I went so deep into this I'm going to go even deeper when I start teaching to women, but I went deep into this actually in this this masculinity course that I just created. Because it's one of these confusions that men run into is like well, it seems like women want to be in these types of positions where they basically hold the masculine frame. They don't they don't have to be safe in any other way and we're not in a world that has given them any other way to do it, but then to step up in the masculine frame and compete. I myself have fallen. I mean, you're talking to me. If you want to talk about, if you want to talk about like a place that I definitely relate to, it's this one. It's, you know, being very fraught like I'll just speak to myself in many ways, because I I fall straight into the archetype you're talking about, right? The times that I have tried to step into the world to create a way to be feminine, but in a position like I'm in, I have come up against all the ways in which that's literally impossible. Like pushed into a position where there is no containment essentially for me in that frame. And because of it, it calls forth and requires a masculine shell. Things like there being no tolerance whatsoever for say that this ebb and sway for a female, a lot of women who are in positions of power run into that one. Even women who aren't really in positions of power, but want to step up into to success within a world that was made for men by men. There is no rhythm for you. It is you're expected to wake up on Monday, the same as you wake up on Tuesday, the same as you wake up on Thursday, and it's not how women operate, but it doesn't matter. You're going to do it or you're going to fail. You know, the same thing with, you know, you'll see a lot of t-shirts, even good ones, they'll look at a woman straight in the face and be like, you need to be assertive, you need to compete, you need to take your place in this world. Okay, well, you're basically telling a woman, get out of your feminine essence, and if you would like to make anything of yourself in this world, step up and be in that masculine place. So, what we have here is a society that has not really created any template for a woman to be able to be in any position of feminine power, and a lot of women are running into that and being in absolute hell. Some women who have done the best with it have just figured out ways to get into that mode and then get out of it. So, it's like what you see in their personal lives is completely different than what you see in their professional lives. But even with those types of women, I see a lot of frustration and pain that they have to crown themselves into that in those time periods. Yeah, I'm stepping into a new phase in my own life, and it's the phase that's of stepping in from being someone who's created, and I've created my own kingdom. I've been a passionate and wild lover, and a lot of aspects of masculinity have been expressed, but the one that hasn't has been the father. I haven't been a father. And the father archetype has been really something that has touched me deeply because that's the chapter that I'm about to go on, and the father archetype means something very different. And it means a different level of attunement, containment, provision, protection, and I think the higher expressions of the father, and then there's completely degraded expressions of the father. And then there's also the kind of, I would say, normalish kind of problems that I think the father runs into, and part of that is I think fathers assess the world, they understand themselves of the past and people in general. And actually maybe you're training their daughters, like, don't ever put your power, you know, allow a man to be in charge of you, because I don't trust men, because I didn't really trust myself, and I don't trust men in general, so they're not actually giving this, you know, either model or idea to their daughters, like, actually you can be in your feminine essence, and somebody's going to take care of you. Well, we're talking about the father archetype, we're talking about almost like qualities or expressions of masculinity in relationship to others, because it's more complicated than just a relationship to children, that's just the most common expression, because there can be all kinds of people who are not technical children that experience the benefit of these types of qualities. Quality is very much, as you mentioned before, fit in with elements of containment, you know, we get things like protection, guidance, encouragement, provision, structure, order, these types of things, but yeah, I feel like a big problem, I mean, we've got with fatherhood, you've got all of these positive expressions that can lead to such an incredible experience for the other, and you've got all these potentially negative expressions that can lead to cause a terrible experiences for the other. For every man who walks down this path of the father, he's got to decide where he's going to be relative to those different expressions. What is sad for me is like what you said, we're not raising girls for sure to feel like they can trust men, and what are we supposed to do with that? You see, I have been putting a lot of pressure specifically on men to start holding each other accountable. One thing that I have noticed with men is that in this world, there's just kind of like an expectation or assumption or acceptance amongst men in general, that you're going to play a zero-sum game with each other. It's the reason why the single biggest threat to men is other men, that's why when you ask a guy a question, okay, you want your daughter out hiking, you want her to run into a bearer or a man and men answer the bear. And I'm kind of like, well, when are men in general going to get so sick of this that they really start to push in the direction of brotherhood and sort of what was happening in the past, where you're really holding men accountable. And supporting them also, so that there's like this framework for men to fall into, that both supports them and holds them to a standard, because it's only at that type of a point where there's a template and a structure for that, that you can trust men with your daughters and teach women that they can trust these certain types of men, because we're in this real shadow when we do the blanket statements to all women. Don't trust men, go be independent. It's like we're shattering the fabric between us is what it looks like. I'm really just making it so that there's no place in a woman's life for a man. And the question for fuzz would be, is that what you're wanting? I get that it sort of solves the immediate issue, which is like, oh, she's got her own money, she doesn't ever have to be put in a position by this a whole potential a hole where I have to worry about what happens to her money because of him or, you know, with personal protection. Oh, she knows how to defend herself. So if somebody tries to rape her, she's not going to run into an issue, but then it's. It's like, that's the thing you're sort of you're making it so there's no place for men, which is the very thing that men are suffering from right now with women. In the modern era where we're just going right in the direction of every person for themselves. Right, right. Yeah, that's, you know, the one from my experience, the one area that I think men are good at holding each other accountable is in the kind of more egregious aspects of abuse. Right, like if they're being abusive to their partners in like an actual physical way, men, and I've watched this, you know, go into high school in Texas. I remember like if someone, you know, hit their girlfriend, somebody else would go and start a fight with them in the school yard. Right, like another man would step up and be like, uh-uh, however, when it comes to more subtle emotional issues, which are not so subtle as their felt, such as infidelity. For example, men are kind of like, yeah, you do you, bro, you know, like, I don't know, it's a, it's a complicated issue, you know, and so there's not a level of accountability there, I think. And I would say that's probably equal on, on both sides. It's like there's an acceptable amount of lack of containment that, you know, we're not holding each other accountable for. And then there's a threshold that that crosses where I do see men really stepping up and being like, uh-uh, like this doesn't stand like my friend, you know, Jake Paul just pulled out of a fight because his opponent, you know, had some domestic abuse charges that were that we're surfacing. And he was like, I'm not going to, you know, put you under the bright lights and, and give you a payday, you know, because of these issues, right? Like there's, there's, so there's, there's one aspect that I think men are holding each other accountable. And then there's a whole other aspect where it's just like people are saying like, well, the systems broken and you're going to find your way and, and we're going to kind of leave that up to you. So, I don't know, I think that's, you know, just from my own perspective into the end of the masculine, that's what I see. My experience has been far worse than yours. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I understand and I had a very, you know, sensitive and also like compassionate conversation with, you know, I won't mention who she is, but, you know, I work with her in New York. And she's a high level executive and she's just, you know, with a, with really quivering tenderness in her voice was saying like, I've never, I've never known men to be safe. I've never known men to be safe. And just my heart breaks, you know, I mean, I, I don't know, I don't know what else to say when I say that is like my heart breaks. Our, our standards for men and, and what they're doing in the world and how they're operating in the world needs to be way higher than what it is. At the same time as our support for men needs to be way higher than it is and that looks a lot like helping them to really own and step into their masculinity rather than go against it. That being said, I had so many experiences when I was a child in an extremely abusive situation. We're talking as a child, not even the woman in a relationship where my abuser had me out in broad daylight. And men were walking by. So, yeah, yeah, this is something that needs to change within society and it's, it's not going to be women who are angry holding men accountable. It's got to be men who start that push. Yeah, I think this is, you know, what is desperately needed is a return of the of the healthy expression of the father and the father as the one who who protects and and contains and provides and also holds peace and justice and all of the, all of the field of value. And, you know, in this world and I do see encouraging signs of this rise that's kind of coming that the absence of this strong father archetype as you mentioned just, you know, briefly in the absence of that what comes in its place is a type of devouring mother ideology, which is totalitarianism. It's the state becoming the devouring mother that controls everything, every aspect of how you spend money, what you do, and that arises in the absence of the strong, you know, father archetype when it's missing. So, the absence of that leads to the other. So, if we want to stop this totalitarian, you know, creep this march, it's time for the the true father to return and return in mass collectively. Oh, I completely agree. This is definitely not the popular opinion when it comes to the way the world operates today, but I see a craving amongst men to really be in their power, but be in their power in a way that's not going to sort of get the hellfire rain down upon them by others. What do you mean by the hellfire rain down upon them by others? What do you think, what do you think, where do you think the criticism lies for men who are looking to do it? Understandably so. It's people in general. That's the scary part. It's really a lot of women and it's also men going against other men. There's been such an association with power and men being such a bad and dangerous thing that now it's like we're just to, I mean, I could see in society we're just against men holding power. As a principle, and so what I'm watching is almost like an immasculization. It's like we're pulling trying to pull men sort of off kilter from masculinity in general, trying to take all of the powerful expressions of masculinity and tamp them down, trying to make men as nice as possible, and there's a very, very big difference between a kind of man and a nice man. Nice men are some of the most dangerous men on the planet. Yeah, I think there's a really powerful quote that if you think strong men are dangerous, wait till you see how cruel weak men can be. Absolutely. Yes. I did a whole video on that. It's a very serious thing for people to understand. You don't understand that when you cram a man into a place where he's only socially acceptable, if he disowns a lot of aspects of himself on a conscious level, you're going to be creating a monster who's operating in all kinds of bizarre under the carpet ways and you're not actually going to see any of the positive expressions of masculinity. You're going to see all the negative expressions of masculinity veiled sugar coated. It's terrifying. Yeah, yeah, it's better to it's so much better to look to devil in the eye than to look what you think is an angel in the eye, but secretly have devilish intentions underneath. You know, and I think that's that's what terrifies me as I look out at the world that you see a lot of people with with the thin veneer of I'm the good guy, but underneath they terrify me. Yeah, absolutely. You know, there's so there's another there's another trend that I see and I would love for you to comment on if you see this as well, where I feel like some men that I've known who are really, really good men have almost overcompensated for the historic, you know, abuses of power and have just kind of really stepped so far back. Instead of being like the mountain that's able to hold the containment, they're not a mountain, they're a doormat and whatever whatever the woman says once does, you know, says like, you know, I'm not going to have sex with you because men have abused sex for thousands of years and they're like, OK, you know, hopefully in five years will have sex again, you know, it's like they're like in this place where it's like, I will take I will take anything, you know, like whatever whatever whatever your needs and they're not actually standing for their own. Their own needs and their own, their own desires, they've almost stepped too far back and and the women are not happy in those relationships, either nobody's happy in those relationships. That's absolutely something that is happening and it happens from childhood. Most of these men are born to women who have been in a position of real pain relative to men and so the first offense that this child has is being born male. So a mother seeks to turn her son into what never hurt her. But that turns a man against himself and it turns a man against manhood in general. So it's like a self-castration dynamic and these children because of the level of fury that is projection upon them have a real terror of conflict. So they spend their their adult lives trying to avoid conflict at any possible cost. These are men who go for confluence. We were talking about confluence earlier as a feminine trait but they're taking on the negative feminine trait of confluence or obsession around confluence. There's nothing inherently negative as wanting confluence in relationship with all people do but the obsession over it can cover all manner of sins. Right. Right. Yeah, this is, you know, everything is a is a delicate balance and I think there's a lot of clarity that needs to arrive before you can actually assess your actions and decisions. But when everything is confused and I think that's a big part of the work that you're trying to do is you're trying to clarify what these aspects and attributes are so that people can make, you know, wise decisions and step into their into their best, you know, into their best expression of who they are. I think you just figured out what I'm doing for a living. Yeah, totally, totally. And I think there's, you know, there's many of us who are interested in the same thing because this, this diad, the relationship between the masculine and the feminine and men and women, this is the foundational diad in our societal structure. And when that is, when that is broken, the amplification of something broken at the, at the simplest, reiteration form because it just amplifies out, you know, it amplifies to our relationship to Gaia, our shared mother, it amplifies out to, you know, so it just multiplies, multiplies. So if you don't fix the diad, if you don't fix the fundamental problems in the relationship dynamics, you can't fix the societal problems. Exactly. My God, you just made me so happy. You just summed up why I decided to do this particular course. Yeah. Because, you know, obviously being in this position that I'm in, I'm looking at things from a very different angle that most people are looking at them from. And this issue between men and women and men with their masculinity and women with their femininity lies at the root of so many societal issues right now. It's just literally bleeding out across everything. And it became very obvious to me that this was the first place to go to start resolving these bigger societal issues. And, you know, if we're going to accept, which we must accept and don't want to accept that femininity is in the responsive role and masculinity is ultimately the initiative energy and must be in order for it to be in a state of health. It is men that first need to come into a state of alignment. I'm not saying they can't do so side by side, but I really do and did see men as the ones who are going to come into an alignment in a way that then caused an alignment within femininity that then rippled out across society itself. Yeah. So it's imperative that men step into power, but actual power that accommodates for the well-being of those in their care. What is the potential role of the women in initiating men into this type of masculinity? I feel like feminine energy has the capacity to call a man into this type of power. However, a woman will not go into that space unless she feels some kind of safety. What I am going to be trying to teach women to do is to rather than fight against a man stepping into a position of power to really call him there in a way that says I want you I want you to be in this position of empowerment I want you to be in this place where you're essentially my container that's where you're leading and you are giving the structure and I am putting my safety and care in your hands. But to call a man into that space at the same time is to also put the pressure on him for the responsibility of this is my well-being I'm essentially putting something that is incredibly valuable in your hands that level of trust has the capacity to really empower a man fill him with all kinds of energy. But if he does not behave in a way that justifies that trust a woman is going to clam up she's going to withdraw she's going to step into her masculine shield and it's going to be this whole cyclical disaster but. I'm not okay with men requiring women to be in a state of vulnerable femininity without providing a safety that's got to be super essential so the way that I see this is like a lot of men men who can actually step up into that sort. Masculine frame are going to be providing enough safety and security for women plural that they can start to call other men into these into their essence basically. Yeah you know there's a I think this this ask this aspect of the of the hero archetype for the masculine and it's actually it's actually reflected in the communist tree of life in. And the relationship between those so the has it is this kind of bound boundary breaking desire this overflowing overflowing desire to kind of flip tables it's the mess ionic energy I'm going to flip tables I'm going to break boundaries I'm going to you know and then it's it's actually contained by the quality of and Gevera is is actually right boundary it's that you'll break in and in balance so those two work together so that the masculine knows to break the boundaries that are meant to be broken so to and then to keep all the boundaries that are meant to be kept. And that exact relationship so Gevera comes from you know the root of give or which is hero and so the hero is not the one is out breaking the boundaries the heroes the one is able to keep the boundaries that need to be kept. And actually hold the right relation between those and so that's been another you know place where I've you know found some deep you know esoteric wisdom that's hidden like art what does it mean to be to be the hero it's the has it it's the desire to with your telos to actually throw us through and break new ground but also to be able to contain that and hold the boundaries that need to be kept. That's wonderful yes. Yeah. Yeah I see I mean there's obviously a lot of synergy in the places that you know that we've arrived at what do you think is something that's particularly you know surprising that you see kind of happening or an area where you see people teaching that you you're like no that's not it we've talked about some of them but anything else that kind of comes of mine where you're like okay people are teaching this but it's not quite right. Yeah I am I am not so hot on this idea that at this particular point in time women need to and men need to realize that there's both polarities inherent within them and so they need to basically master both. I feel like this is going to bring people in a in a very wrong direction right now and we're trying to eradicate polarities healthy polarities through this and. It has this whole attitude of extreme resistance to where I'm trying to bring people and what I see is the resolution for mankind right now. It makes me very unpopular in the spiritual field I'm even you know in conjunction with what I'm doing I'm planning on going really in depth into this concept it's not something that I've. Dived far enough into to be able to just rattle off in this interview exactly what's wrong with that entire theory but I'm about to break it apart because every single time somebody teaches that it's like you might as well just do nails on a chalkboard. Right right all right well I mean I know that you got another one all right let's go and I will maybe step back to the last one but yeah let's go to the new one. Okay another one that I've got is that I see a lot of women who are trying to teach men to not fix problems and just listen. This was an entire chapter in my course because it's where we're so we're so we're so up a creek without a ladder on this one. What it is is that women in general they really really need a man to deeply understand a problem before he tries to act and that is something that a lot of men are not doing so every time every time I'm not getting I've found no exception yet. Every time I'm working with a male and a female in a relationship and you got this particular problem where you hear her continuing with the rhetoric of like. You just why can't you just listen I just I don't need you to stick stuff I just need you to sit there and listen it's never actually what's happening. She doesn't need somebody to sit there and listen just leave her to her problems herself. What's happening is that the guy is coming in and is not really deeply attuning to the whole situation he's not spending time gathering all the information and intricacies. Instead he's just bulldozing and bypassing with solutions and because he's not got all the information. What he's offering is not a solution and so he all he's doing is proving that he can't perceive the unsafety and so it's escalating a woman in terms of her un safety dynamic. So that's another one of those words like I see people teaching about this and I'm like oh you know no nail on a chalk work moment right right. Yeah I mean this was I don't know if you recall or if you ever saw this movie there was a movie called white man can't jump. Yes I love that one. Yeah so so basically she's asking I forget the character's names what she's saying you know I'm thirsty so you know the protagonist goes and gets her glass of water and she's like why did you give me a glass of water. I just told you I'm thirsty I want you to feel that I'm thirsty he's like you just said you thirsty I'm gonna get you this glass of water and it was kind of like a precursor to this this idea. And but it still hasn't been resolved even though that was like comically kind of addressed in that but I think what you're pointing to is is actually the nuance of what needs to happen which is the and also where it can also go like sometimes you know I understand that you're thirsty. I'm just gonna get you some water like this is actually the this is fine you know and like you can you can way over do it but yeah it makes reminding me of that scene for that movie. If we go back you know if we go back to the to the previous thing that you were discussing there is a lot of rhetoric about high roast gamos is the is becoming you know the kind of. Devine or Maffredite the the the rebus the out you know the the one who holds masculine and feminine in perfect balance within themselves. And while I think there's value in being able to explore the fruition of your masculine and feminine dynamics within yourself I think there's a natural there's a natural state of your polarity wherever that may be no matter if you're a man or woman there's a natural resting place of your polarity. And it doesn't mean that you can't step into a different polarity like if my wife's sick or you know going through something it doesn't mean that I can't step into a very feminine expression of who I am but if I stay there forever I'll be very uncomfortable because it's not my natural polarity. You know and so I think this idea of being able to be flexible but also recognizing where your where your home your home polarity is and then finding someone to match you know that matches you and where they're resting home polarity is. That I think is is is pretty key as far as that subject is concerned. Yeah and you know to then go circle back again to the second thing is you know there's the if you're just staying in feeling without any action you're stuck in kind of a whirlpool you know it's like a circle that of just feeling and feeling I'm feeling you feeling me feeling you feeling me feeling you feeling me. At a certain point you need to feel and then move forward with telosets an aspect of the masculine okay I'm feeling you feeling you okay we good now let's start to move and it creates a spiral and that spiral is continuing to feel but also moving towards an objective it's the arrow it's the line qualities of the masculine to like so it's it is it is that balance of feeling and then also and then having an arrow that's pointing towards a way out. Women are far more apt to follow you in your arrow when they when it's demonstrated to them that you really do understand all the intricacies of the problem itself. That's what I watch men not really doing well in their relationship they're not demonstrating like to the woman the thorough understanding of all of it to then be like and this is why I think we should do this and we're doing to do it okay. Yeah what about men who say like I just I can't I can't just don't understand I can't I can't find I can't find my way to feel and understand what my partner is feeling I just I can't do it. Then they're out of touch with their own emotions that's an entire section of this this new course that I did because men are completely they're completely out of touch with emotions and it's honestly through no fault of their own. A lot of men being out of touch with their own emotions is the fault of yet again us moving into the industrial revolution. That's a whole other story but history has basically put what happened in history has basically put men in a position where they're disconnected from emotions their own emotions now you are going to perceive somebody else's feeling state through your own emotional centers. So if you're unwilling to feel your own emotion you will not feel the emotions of others that means you've got a limited range of information about the other that you can ascertain. So I'm going to I'm going to try and dive into the nuance of this so there's a feeling tone that I think you know we have mirror neurons were actually able to compassionately feel what somebody else is feeling you know like I recently saw just a photo of my my little niece you know my sister's daughter names Bonnie and her the dog that she rescued. Was attacked by another dog and it passed and I saw a photo of her crying and. I like I could feel like in that case it was like so easy you know and she represents you know so many qualities that evoke this kind of father energy like the purity in the innocence and. And just throw the raw feeling of that and also I could understand why so it was very easy because I could feel the feeling and understand why now sometimes like I've seen her and she's crying. But I have no idea why and it doesn't seem to make any sense and I don't know if how real it is or where it's coming from or what's going on or. It's just she has something something's got it in her head and I don't I don't necessarily feel the same way as I felt when I understood the story and I could feel her feeling and I think maybe where men. Have difficulty is we can see and and know the feeling and then can kind of go in like okay understand the feeling of that of frustration mixed sadness but I don't understand the story so I can't I can't actually I can't actually feel it. So I think for me I just looking at my own you know as a man and my own natural state when I can. Both see and perceive through all of the all of the aspects of perception that are open which is just sight it's just something much deeper than that. I can see feel here understand no you know have no sense no sense of of the feeling but I don't understand the story the story doesn't make sense then it's more difficult. Until I can actually understand the story but sometimes the story maybe doesn't make sense and I think that that could be some of the challenge as well or maybe the story does make sense for one person but I can't translate. You know in another way or there's a feeling and then the story is built on kind of scaffolding to help understand as they're explaining the feeling so yeah dive in coming out. So when I see what you're describing happening in male female or dynamics what it is is that we're looking usually at a surface thing that's happened right. And underneath that is a deeper story that men are not really able to access because the woman herself is not able to access it. So I'll give you a good example of this which is like pretty awesome. I was working with a client a long time ago who had this major trigger around wedding rings being left anywhere because she woke up one morning to her father having left his wedding ring on the counter and was peace out on out of the marriage and out of the relationship metal life. So obviously this became a trigger for her and that she was not aware of it enough to be able to explain to a guy in her life that that's a no go like never take your f'ing ring off because if you do I'm going to lose my mind and it was not something that she even like was consciously very connected to in order to go do trauma work on it so that it was okay to see it there. So what happens is that the guy she was with a golfer so he took the ring off of his finger and just like put it on the counter top to go golfing just to preserve the quality of the ring she lost her banana sandwich I mean it was like he was gone right now I sat there watching them because they came for a session and it was like an hours worth of watching her go round in circles and just making no sense to anyone right and him included and it's because she herself. It's because she herself was not able to drop down to the deeper meaning it's not about the ring. It's not about the ring being left on the counter top it's what what you make it mean and why it means that to this person and when you get down to that layer I've never encountered woman or man for which that story does not make sense it's just that process with which to get down to that level. I don't think that most men have a perfect template for what questions how to be questioning a woman who is to take her there kind of like get her to a place where she can figure it out process it while communicating with him and then offer a consistent coherent narrative about what that deeper issue is on top of that it often makes a woman feel or a person in general feel incredibly vulnerable. Because it's you're kind of dancing around on the surface stuff because what's underneath that is something like I don't feel like you're attracted to me. Okay well no woman wants to say that to a guy you know it kind of like puts you in this horrible position or even let's say even more common one let's say that you've got this issue that you're trying to get a woman to you don't understand why she's freaking out the way she's freaking out and when you get her down to that deeper layer she says something like. I don't feel like you want to be with me like what I'm wanting more than anything is to feel like you're not doing sort of here with me as a favor that you want to spend time with me organically yourself to be in the position to have to say that makes you feel completely desperate and pathetic and and and and so unless a woman is willing to feel that sensation admit to that level of vulnerability with a man she's not going to be telling him the right story. So in other words you're saying you know taking the time and patience to trace a problem back to the route because the insistence that the problem is this superficial problem you know for the golfer for example he's like listen like you know I have my wedding ring on and it's it's pretty thick no way I would golf with this thing I would hurt my finger you know I would end up with like grooves in my in my left my left ring finger like I got to take it off so if my wife had that particular problem would be like yeah. Like I'm fucking golfing like what do you mean you know like it doesn't make any sense like and but then if you trace the problem to the route you might you could understand it and then a solution. It could arise which is like you know what they have these they have these like silicone rings and I will take this one off because it's thick and it would hurt my finger but I'm aware of the silicone one and just to honor that that it's always that it's always going to be on even when I'm golfing. But that's a surface answer I'm not saying that's not a part of the answer but that's also a surface answer to the deeper problem which would be something like. Yeah basically so it's like if I'm a man and that's what I find I'm like okay I'd like this woman feels very insecure about me leaving what are some ways that I can affirm that I'm not going to. And it's it's got to be better than babe I'm not gonna leave is like everybody can say that. It's like even breaking down for her her value in my life would be something that would do more for a woman's sense of security. Do you understand what what I would be losing this is a big one for me to understand what I would be losing if I left you. Get that and most women who are in that position are like no because you know they've grown up in these types of you know relationships especially since childhood where. They're taught to completely not even see their own value in relationships which is why they're always panic that the guys going to run off and. So what what happens how do you how do you advise somebody let's say. Let's say there is a one partner or the other it could happen either way but let's say just to use this one particular example knowing that it can happen both ways. The man's broken up with his girl before in broken up with her maybe once maybe twice they've gotten back together and then her fear is that she's going to break up with him again. And he's trying to convince her that that's not going to happen right so there's a there's a precedent that's already been set. And then still I suppose the same advice just be like but but how do you deal with something where there's historic kind of patterns and issues that have arise how do you how do you heal to the point where you can have a fresh start. So that's the problem with patterns. You had an interesting Freudian slip which is what got me stuck yeah if you because you were meaning to say is what are you supposed to do when she's afraid he's going to break up with him again but you said she's going to break up with me. Just something interesting to note that let's say that that we're sticking with the original issue so we've got a guy who has broken up with a woman before. He's trying to demonstrate that he's not going to but it's been a pattern patterns or an issue because of the fact that you've already demonstrated that a person can expect something the brain is literally wired for patterns. And so you're up against you're up against the like I would call like a steeper hill and something that you have to accept if you're the in the man's perspective in that situation is that the onus is on you to really have to prove it consistently over a long long long period of time. And it's frustrating because that level of distrust creates a distance in the relationship. But the more the more that you can answer to it and with more aggression the better that's going to go for you it's just. Like is that longer road longer road more consistent effort answering to it directly in a much more aggressive way not expecting the other to to trust and that is something that I feel like people need in general need to understand about trust in general is like it's really on the person to prove trust not on the person to trust. And if you get into that mentality and relationship you become a safe person see let's say it's just you in the relationship this can go both ways may or female doesn't matter if I am in this relationship with you and I say and really start to act like it. I don't expect you to trust me that's not an expectation that is rational it is on me to prove that I am somebody who is worthy of trust and your trust of me will be a response to the way that I show up in this relationship. If we operate with each other from this perspective we will end up with trust but not because we are requiring somebody to trust us it shouldn't be a requirement it should be the natural why product a reaction the way that one conducts themselves. Yes for sure and so are so when there are when there have been violations of trust violations of trust that have led to lack of safety and and those continue to repeat and then it every time it repeats even minor transgressions then become major transgressions because of the weight of the transgressions past and so it becomes an even more sensitive and more sensitive and more sensitive thing. And it actually requires an even higher level of refinement act seemingly to kind of move forward otherwise these triggers just amplify. Yeah and I would love to make this easy for you with the common hack but it's not going to happen trust is the most sacred thing in a relationship and you start to rupture that and you lose everything. What's very difficult with with trust in general is that you can push a relationship to a point where there's no coming back from it because of patterns established. So you know trust is one of those things where if a person demonstrates a certain pattern they should not be trusted that's the reality. I think a lot of people are walking around the world kind of wanting trust in areas that they don't deserve it and that's the reality that they won't swallow about themselves you know I'm a person who consistently breaks my word I shouldn't actually be trusted to keep it. And if I've demonstrated that this is going to be a pattern I have to show up in a way where I am so I've so much integrity relative to my word that people just inevitably eventually stop associating the breaking of word with me. But it is going to run a person into exactly what you're describing it's going to run a person into a hypersensitivity. When does somebody when does somebody just say like look we've we've done we've gone down this road we've gone down it too long. And there's just that we're past the point of repair we're past the point of you know being able to restore this trust how do you know when to give them that one more chance because often in these in these rupture situations there'll be a big explosion of like I would never do that again this I'm changed forever this has been you know I've realized this thing about myself and it's and then it happens again and then again and then again and then when is the point where you're just like okay like I mean how it's such a delicate thing to try and figure out let's try it one more time or just out of respect for myself I have to say like no this isn't I just I don't think I can trust you from here. I don't have a good answer for that because it's so situation so personal yeah. I would love to have a generic answer for everybody but I just don't and a lot of that is down to you know other elements in a relationship relationships have so many complex elements specially related to energy exchange relationship so what I watch is people having a much harder time arriving at that moment to the essentially conjunction with the higher amount of energy exchange that they're experiencing in that relationship. So let's say that one of the you know energy let's talk about energy exchange so in a relationship there's always some kind of energy exchange that occurs most people are not particularly conscious about that energy exchange. But energy exchange is an element of any relationship is what most of us could look at and call a transaction even the most people are aware that they even have them in relationships but it'd be things like you know in this relationship something that I provide to you is intimacy something that you provide to me is protection that's an energy exchange. So if let's say that you consistently provide a certain type of protection for me and yet over here there's a certain place where I can trust you very much. Usually what I'll run into is I have to let go of the relationship when the amount that I value this type of protection does not overcompensate for this level of unsafety that you're causing for me over here and the amount of pain it causes. Yeah, that makes sense so that actually the positive elements in the energy exchange and there's a catch what word called the I mean which is reciprocity where the reciprocity of what is what it's costing for me to be in this place relative unsafety is actually costing me more than the beauty that I'm experiencing from from our energy exchange. Exactly so and this is this is very psychological because there are a lot of people who study human relationships in general and what they have arrived at is that there's a point kind of where you cross over into the relationship is mostly negative mostly a negative experience for me type of place to be. And it's like there's once a couple goes past that and the relationship experiences more negative than it is positive relationships don't ever last. So I mean it fits it fits nicely with this concept of trust we're talking about but yeah you cannot pass a certain threshold negativity relationship. Can't do it and in order to go back you got to you got to go so aggressive on trying to introduce positivity to it. Do you think that that people typically stay in relationships longer than they should or don't stay in relationships as long as they should what do you think is if you're going to in the aggregate say what is the what is people's natural tendency to. Depends on the generation. Okay interesting interesting what do you think the generational differences are I think the millennials are right on that kind of cusp where you've got kind of a 50 50 blend. Anything under millennials. They don't stay long enough in relationships anything over that stay too long. So we've got the mainly like the what is it is the X generation yeah the X generation and the boomer generation way too long. Yeah that's really interesting and now what do you think what do you think accounts for that is that just like the because these guys were raised by these guys really easy these guys were raised by these guys. I'll talk about the millennials in a minute because they play into this but because these guys were raised by these guys they saw the dysfunction. They are the ones who are like what the hell I'm sorry the way that you guys are achieving longevity is completely screwed. Okay I understand that Disney sold me on the idea that like you know relationships are supposed to look a certain way and like you meet this person and it's forever and always but sorry the only relationships I've seen are total crap and no. I'm not going to step into a relationship where I feel like crap all the time and so there's like a trigger happiness with just pulling out of it basically because of the dysfunction they're looking at the danger on the opposite side. And they're saying I might be able to do better alone thank you. But the millennials who are really the disappointed generation they're the ones that like grew up with the you know and they thought it was going to be good so by their third or fourth or fifth relationship ending they're like. I am now so officially traumatized by relationships that now it's like I don't know whether I want to even get in them. But you've got still a whole bunch of millennials are like yeah I really need this relationship I'm still hanging on for dear life which is why you see that kind of split in that particular generation. Yeah like above that is just it's I think a lot of it is the indoctrination around what marriage should be and what relationships are and longevity specifically being the marker of success in a relationship something that I'm going directly against myself right now. When you know when I'm teaching relationships longevity is not necessarily a marker of health in any relationship it can be. It can suggest that two people are happy in a relationship and the things are functional but absolutely is not a marker for that. Yeah totally totally relationships that reach longevity through dysfunctionality. So yeah I mean you you hear that you know people stand up we've been married for 50 years and everybody cheers like oh yay congratulations. You know like what was it happy you know did you have you guys been loving each other madly you know like are you still in love you know like that's that's a more interesting question than just trying to quantify. The amount of years as the as the epitome of success so that's a very very fresh and point. What's worse is when you get those couples oh god you get them they've been married 45 years and you ask them what's the key to the relationship you want to cringe listen to those answers. Yeah she's always right. Oh I just spend most of my time away from him. Oh my god like those answers are just like what you know out of a whole assembly of them there will be like one answer where I'm like yeah yeah and and or you know well you know it's just you gotta stay in and you know compromise and you just feel the deadness you feel the deadness in their in their heart body mind soul is just a deadness to it but the stubbornness that is raised in their field of value like we're stubborn. You know we're completely dead inside we haven't been in love we don't have sex you know like it's it's nothing here but but we're stubborn as hell you know so everybody's like yay stubborn. Yeah it's interesting and so I mean in this it's a cool way to think about it because in this cyclical pattern so now you know Gen Z and the people growing up underneath that millennial cut off then they'll probably exist. Probably experience a lot of their parents breaking up too quick and then realizing that oh man maybe they could have worked it out so then maybe they'll switch back to being more stubborn and then that more stubborn generation lead to unless we can kind of find the level ground where the pendulum isn't swinging back and forth and we're actually acting on principles that make sense. That's my goal. Yeah totally totally because that's I think the thing to transmit to your children is not that you stuck it out it's to model I mean kids learn by what they see not by what you tell them and so you need to model what just radical radical outrageous love looks like just like being madly in love like that's the thing that that's the thing to transmit and whether that's with the same person or whether that's with you know other people if you can show what matter like really really just you know beautiful love looks like in beautiful conflict resolution and communication practices and just model something beautiful. That's that I think should be the goal that that parents have and people have like I'm going to model something beautiful to my kids. Let's talk about this talk about the sexual aspects then just for a moment then you know so there's there's a. An undeniable force in culture which was 50 shades of gray 150 million copies sold of that book 1.32 billion in box office sales right like this was a cultural phenomenon that happened and it's about exaggerated polarity. It's playing in the realm of exaggerated polarity and in in the bedroom in particular and this was this was obviously highly erotic I mean the story wasn't particularly that profound but the but it was about these experiences and about like opening up into this world but you may have may have something to say about the story. The story was so profound in fact that it's been redone 8 million times across all time in history story at the beauty in the beast. No different so basically in this in this we call it an archetypal story in this story you've got so many elements that spoke to the emotions of a woman most most especially which is why it did so well with women. Now with the story of beauty in the beast you've got this woman who is ordinary so most women relate to this person you could just be your average every day girl in all of a sudden this fabulously powerful wealthy guy decides that you're the apple of his eye and then takes you into his care and obsession. So you've got themes of a man being fixated on you which is the validation of your worth even though you came from a place where you don't see yourself as highly. You've got these deep needs for a man to take care of you and you've even got the interplay between a woman and her daddy issues which is I've got a man who is not really answering to my best interests but I can fix him through the power of my love fix him. So there's this underneath the whole sexual thing which you know power play this its own universe for people even as we could talk about on a purely sexual level but so much sexuality has to do with these underlying emotional needs. Even in power play you've got a person's capacity to reach states of being through power play that they cannot meet or line up with any other way. Like when we've been in authoritarian type of childhood environments it's really really super juicy for us to be able to do that in a safe way. There is no template for healing any of those experiences outside of the context of massive power play. So what was so interesting about shades 50 shades of gray is that it was so who cares about it's like funny because you're like fixated on the sexual element for me is like who cares about the sexual element of this because so much speaking to the emotional needs of humans especially women. So let's go you want to talk about fetishes yeah I definitely do and I just want to double click a little bit on the story element which I may be under indexed in the importance of in the popularity of this which is the beauty in the beast is the story of there's a beast so there's an attraction to the beast to the raw animality that's expressed in the masculine and the desire to then. Tame the beast with your with your innocence beauty charm etc and then the beast becomes tamed and in the story beating the beast then he becomes this benevolent you know loving prince who's no longer the beast but and then in the story Christian gray also becomes this kind of tamed beast you know she like reforms him so she finds the beast tames the beast but it seems like that's that's a desire but also a little bit of a shadow desire because when she want the beast to actually live within. The prince also you wouldn't want to completely kill the beast you would want to have both the beast and the prince included and transcended inside the person you want the beast because he will protect you to the external. But he flips and has this completely different face towards you so it's we're just looking for safety right. It's not that a woman wants a man to be tamed. It's that I you know I can fix a man is basically I have a I have a total a whole and. If I'm the one who is powerful enough. To make this man become loving. Then what does that say about me in my value. What does that say about the trauma that I've resolved with men who were not nice to me when I was little. It's the capacity to get an a whole daddy. Back on your side basically the things you could never get when you were a little girl. And even I could say even the women that I've talked to you I've of course was way interested in this 50 shades of gray stuff like so many people were so interested in it. I was decoding why women were like loving this film years and years ago and even women who had like what you call the real nice daddy nice daddy's right. It was like the power of men is what they had never experienced so even though they might not relate to the I need to reform him into a nice guy story as much as the other women. Would there was still this incredible sexual attraction towards. Sort of like the beast element who's able to protect those so he can't be super dangerous you know towards you unless he needs to be. That's why in all the stories they didn't take away all of his power and money that's the thing the beast of today's world is the man who has the money not the guy who got the wrong. Yeah and I think what what made the beast safe to what was her name Annabelle or I forget the protagonist name from the female protagonist name. Something with the day but she there was so much communication and this actually maybe parlays into this as the erotic aspects of this like if you're going to enter that world. The level of communication that's required to make that type of exaggerated polarity sexual play safe is demands a level of impeccable communication and also real live attunement. Like the actual attunement to what's to what's actually going on not only the verbal cues but the nonverbal cues and like what. What is actually happening in that scenario so that's what allows the safety for the beast to be actually expressed in a way that's. Still safe but it requires like max maybe they were signing contracts. I mean how an erotic does it to sign contracts before a sexual encounter but everybody's like oh my gosh this is the sexiest thing ever and they're signing contracts. But it's about the communication and safety and also like the levels of attunement that I think that are. Oh hell yeah. Oh god you I mean let's go here okay so we can talk about 50 shades of gray which is the vanilla of the king world right or we can go straight into the reality of the king world. I have never found a place with better communication anywhere on planet earth than the king world. It is impressed me greatly and when studying human sexuality obviously the king world is somewhere you're going to end up going. It's been amazing to watch those we could call them extreme polarity relationships but also extreme power dynamic conscious power dynamic relationships. There's sometimes some of the relationships I've seen. Yeah yeah and there's studies in the aggregate showing the mental well being and satisfaction of people who engage in these type of power polarity exaggeration or power exchange type of dynamics it's. It's something that I think actually can be away you know and again all caution and all of the all the aspects of communication all the aspects of attunement but it demands that. When someone offers their offers themselves up to your power then it as you said earlier like it evokes something where it's like okay like I have I have power now or I I've surrendered my power now you better you better. Hold that power with impeccable responsibility or this game is over right like. The person who's in that position of power is not going to get that that heightened receptivity unless they are in that space of complete integrity holding that position power. But it becomes like this incredible canvas for trust. Right right yeah it's it's interesting is it's it's one of those things where you could never like prescribed that to anybody it has to be of their own personal desire palette and at the same time you can point to an aggregate like this is something to generally take a look at not telling you to do it. But I like I can't so this is why I can tell you why so. What the king world in general has done without really even I think intending to do it consciously is they've created a way where people can satisfy their deepest emotional needs. We can say they could be physical needs to but at the at the base it's the deepest emotional need they found a way to do that within a safe container for the most part. And so it is actually right now one of the best places people can go to resolve developmental traumas. It's completely shocked me how you know we were talking about the king world most people have the sort of mental image of the king world is just being. Like you know it's all about the leather and the bondage and stuff and I'm telling you the tools it's a tiny sliver of kink right yeah. It's kind of a bummer for me honestly that the king world tends to sort of carry that dungeon ask feel because that's just only certain people within the king dynamic but. There have been so many people that I have put in the direction of that because of the fact that the they can you know within that framework find somebody who's compatible to these. Almost alternative needs that they have you know. I've seen so much healing at this I just don't even have words so before it's like until I start these developmental centers and I want to do for people like this is really the place where it's at is. So you've got a man who's like deeply wants to be mothered right. You're not going to be able to find a way to canvas that with most women. Most women are going to be completely shut down by the concept of a man who needs to be mothered guess what the king world has women who want to do that. Their particular life experience has slanted in the direction of wanting to wanting to mother a sexual partner and so I have I have. Off top of my head I got two clients who over the course of the years I have put in the direction of that and they have found absolute incredible healing that way. Not just healing why are we limiting it to healing they're in relationships that actually make them happy like genuinely satisfied relationships thanks to the opposite to I've got you know other men who were never were allowed ever to like express themselves. And to really like get rowdy and sort of take themselves out on their energy when I say take themselves out and it's not like a picture of somebody beating somebody's death. But it's like you know they're so pent up let's say that they were raised by you know these mothers who who made it so that they had to just keep everything within themselves. You unleash these men in a world where they can actually like feel like they're a good guy and okay and wanted for really fully expressing themselves that's the happiest band there is. So you know while there's this whole side of kink obviously that like people have to use discretion anywhere sexuality and humans but yeah it's like I can't I can't actually speak highly enough of it to be honest. Wow that's beautiful that's beautiful yeah I mean I and I totally totally understand I think that you know I don't I don't like to talk about these the personal aspects of this in in my life and I still won't but. I've you know from research of all sorts you know this is this is a very this is about a very potent technology that actually helps you refine like deep deep processes processes of you know surrender can you surrender to the will of will of something more powerful than you. As as the submissive can you surrender to the will of the divine and just be fucked open like you have to and I lost a journey you know it's like mama like you got me like I can't there's no resistance like you're in me and you got I know you just. I just open open open open open open open you know like more and more and then in the in the place of power it's like okay wow can I not be ashamed of these desires that I have can I show my desires and have these. These desires be loved oh my gosh you actually love me you love the beast parts of me to so it's that I don't have to hide I don't have to hide these aspects of myself and think that if I showed them you would definitely not love me. And so there's this split between like I think people have their you know their their porn hub search history that they would never show their partners but that's a problem yeah that's a problem right you know what not not not even talking about the pornography itself which I think is a you know kind of a pseudo erotic version that has its own problems but nonetheless just even expressing like actually I have these desires and to be seen in those desires and love for those desires. Fuck then you feel loved in in the totality of your being. Absolutely. I talk publicly a lot about you probably don't realize this but I talk publicly about this a lot. Most especially that at the baseline of a person's sexual drives is these deep unmet emotional needs that is they are not limited to the bedroom. It's a misconception that they're limited to the bedroom these deepest needs are something that we're looking to satisfy in our life in general most especially relationships. So you do not know how to be in a relationship with the person unless you get to the heart of their sexuality and that is the most vulnerable aspect of human being. So then what do you what do you recommend for you know somebody who's in a dynamic and you know I've many friends of both sexes in both different directions who have a partner that. It's like I know what my partner wants they've been vulnerable enough to share it but that's not really my desire so there's a mismatch of their emotional their emotional sexual blueprints of what they desire. Within their within their partnership do you imagine a world where there's the freedom to go to like you know these kind of kink temples we could call them like the upgraded version of the dungeon a kink temple where they could experience this or do they need to just find a partner that that matches that what's the solution. I mean that my answer to that depends upon whether people are wanting a monogamous dynamic or not if people are wanting a monogamous dynamic then you're you're up against some problems you're going to get into issues in that relationship. And it's not because of what needs to take place again it's like people need to get this is not about the bedroom it's that these a person sexuality points to the most deep aspects of their emotional needs within the context of relationship in general. Those issues are never limited to the bedroom when you get down to what a person is looking to experience in the bedroom it always is bleeding out everywhere like you see the signs in their entire life so that would be a real incompatibility issue and I have not seen that go well personally when it comes to monogamous dynamics. If a person would like to open the door to dynamics where a person can meet their sexual needs outside of the context of that one relationship or involve themselves in a monog or sort of play amorous dynamic I have seen that go well sometimes in horrible other times. I mean you want you want what I want for the human race right now I'm going to go sort of put myself on a chopping block here but well we've been that we've been there a lot before so you know it's our most familiar place. It's like what am I about to say I kind of want to say with the with this one intro and the intro is that because of the way that we have been indoctrinated over the last however many thousand years you can't just erase in one day our relationship to monogamy. And that's the issue that I see people running into is issues of envy issues of jealousy issues of fears around loss like there's all these things when you start to enter into the sphere of open relationships or enter into the sphere of polyamorous dynamics that you're going to run up against because of the fact that that's just how relationships have been for so many thousands of years we very difficult to separate the meaning. That we traditionally assigned to something from what is actually occurring right so we've got all kinds of meetings for you know a person basically wanting a sexual relationship with another person meetings like oh I must not have value now if you're going to go and open that door to these alternative types of relationships and sexualities we can't neglect the fact that all of that is taking place and we have to answer to it. That's why in you know with polyamorous relationships one of the key things that you're going to be dealing with is jealousy and envy it's everything that's going to be in the way of you feeling like you have value and you feeling like you have access to the resources you need. How we're going to show up and create security in the relationship when what we've been told for so many thousands of years is a security is literally down to us making sure that we are excluding others. So with that you know being understood it's like I'm not just being like oh all people could handle polyamory because they can't right now. We are not a naturally monogamous species. So what I would hope for people is that especially with regards to these deep needs that they have they there would be a sort of plentiful experience relative to resources and that we would want this for the people in our lives we would want for them to be able to have those deep needs met even if we are not the ones who can meet them and in the best case scenario we can open that door for each other. In a way where we can still maintain and keep the kind of safety and security within those relationships that we've already formed. And the meaning wouldn't be attached to it like I could say her all day long to talk to you about a perfect we're not in that perfect world right now which is why it's so much more complicated. But yeah ideally absolutely a person who has these deep needs in a sexual context and their specific person who they're with at the current time can't meet them that door would be open for them to meet them. I've met a lot of people for whom they've done that and it's gone horribly. I've met a lot of people for whom they've done that and have been doing so for years and it's gone wonderfully. And a lot of that is down to how they manage that process. Yeah totally well this is obviously something that I've been in meshed in for many years now and when I did a podcast with my two beloveds and then also my wife and her partner her pair more. I was just blasphemed and attacked in every possible way none more so than by the spiritual community itself which was kind of surprising that in this community that's rejected all binaries. The one binary that they were going to hold on to you know to the very end was this binary of it has to be conventional monogamy or you're a complete piece of shit fucked up man you know all of these different things. So obviously not only was that infantilizing my partners who were there with their own voice of their own choice saying that this is what they were choosing and then people saying this is not what you're actually choosing you're being. It was a very very strange experience to go through and very very painful for me to be honest to actually say like hey like we're doing this you know we're not perfect we're not prescribing it this is what we've chosen the way that we've decided that we're going to move forward as a family. And just to see the the fallout that kind of came from that it was I have to say just quite shocking and then also you know understanding the kind of culture momentum of what the way that things have gone also I understand it you know that the same in the same in the same regards. Well you're living in a time period just like people who were gay were living in X men of years ago people don't recognize polyamory as a sexuality yet. Like separate of me saying that human beings in general are not monogamous something that I've watched be very painful for individuals who want who sort of fall on that polyamory scale is that it is it's it's recognized as a choice that you are making and a choice that harms others rather than recognizing it as a. Sexuality which does not have to harm others. Yeah yeah that was the big that was the big advancement in the acceptance of homosexuality you know was to say like no this is just this is actually my nature I'm not choosing to be gay I am I am actually gay. And like once people got that then I think it's often that idea but I haven't heard polyamory discussed in that context but someone you know myself I can say it's the truth it's just it's the truth it's my nature and it's not only if it's not only. What I desire myself it's also what I desire for my partners like my wife her former partner was incredible musician improv comedian musician play the piano she's a she's a singer they could make music together and it made me so happy. That they could make music together so when they had a night you know we told the story where I carried with you know carried a piano with him his name was Josh carried a piano all the way out to the fifth wheel where they're going to spend the night because I wanted to make music make love and enjoy this thing that I couldn't provide in the music that they would create made me happy. You know and it's not that there aren't moments of jealousy or things that but I but I look at those like this is my opportunity to see things from her perspective and like what is actually lighting her up when she comes back more lit up more excited because they made songs and they made love and they they had this amazing night like I'm happy for like I would be happy for my best friend who's a female. You know I'm happy if my best friend can you and has an amazing night like oh my God that's awesome I'm so happy for you but then when it's your partner you're like oh my God you must not love me and it's just not doesn't have to be true. But what you're describing is called compersion and most people have a very hard time relating to that concept of compersion when it's attached to something that they themselves would feel pain and rather than any form of joy in. Right. But like every everything you're saying is like textbook for people who are polyamorous. But it's like literally it's like living life from a completely different perspective from a completely different frame. It's very difficult to introduce that into the world the way that the current world thinks and also this between you and me this world has basically gone in the opposite direction that most of us had suspected. I think most of us thought that this world would kind of swing more in the direction of more and more and more liberal type of ideologies. But there's this huge swing back towards conservative ideologies and worse than that it's like backwards universe the very individuals who would have identified as liberal or the ones who are becoming more and more conservative in their way of being in their nature. Which is part of what I think we're seeing and that with the Democrats and I think it's part of what we're seeing with the spiritual field like you know those that we would traditionally recognize as people who would be more accepting are becoming less accepting and definitely wanting to control more. This flip has happened throughout history before you know I like to remind people that the Republican Party was once the party which was arguing for the black vote. So we've gone through these time periods in history where the very people who we would expect certain behavior from kind of flipped and you're in one of those time periods. Yeah it's a very very interesting time and it's it's difficult to navigate through the complexities of this time because of the you know the reality tunnels that we get in through our social media by basically what we watch we get fed more of the same things in the confirmation bias increases and then our ideologies get more and more extreme we're kind of led on this path. To actually not even seeing not even seeing a balanced perspective of information we're led on a path to seeing a very you know simplified explanation of of the way the world works and then it just exacerbates this kind of hyper polarity of individuals where we're at constant conflict with each other rather than coming together which is the only way we're going to make it through whatever challenges lay ahead. Kind of curiosity what made you want to publicly unveil yourself for the world in that way. I have always been someone who feels like the greatest gift I can give is my transparency. You know I'm I have wisdom in certain areas and but really my wisdom comes from experience you know like at my core I'm a monasticoy you know I'm someone who goes out and experiences things and shares my experiences and obviously from a historical perspective. The nosticoy the telestyle the mystery school initiates and the people who had this kind of nostic belief they were pretty much wiped out by the Holy Roman Empire and all of the associated like this idea that you can democratize access to experience and share your experiences not with authority but with like these are this is what I've come to know and feel and see and I'm going to offer this it's been something that's just oriented the way that I. Show up in the world and so for me it wasn't really a choice and then looking back I'm like bro why didn't you think about this a little bit more and like maybe maybe consider some discretion and sharing this because of you know the fallout that happened but it was a. It was such a natural thing for me to do this is just what I do it's how I know myself I know myself is someone who experiences something and then tells the truth about that thing. I so I have really in people are you know assuming all of these strategic motivations it was actually the absence of strategy that led me to this you know I was the I was the meme for you know millions of people for for actually sharing sharing my experience but I didn't really think about it to be honest it was like this is just what I do I'm doing this and hopefully in sharing this experience that will helps me but I did there was so many people like wow I'm just. People are like wow I'm so grateful you shared that because I'm in a similar dynamic and what you shared really help so it did help the certain number of people but the amount of the cost like the amount of blood on the ground that all of us had to give was like. Fuck you know like fuck like what I do it again like I have to really like take a deep breath and think about that again now that I know what the consequences for sharing that I've been I would hope that you know I would still say yes and I believe I'm at the place where I would because I've harvested a lot of gifts from the pain and the suffering and. The and the strengthening and having all of these different voices that were attacking and trying to pull us apart and we had thousands of people who didn't know us trying to. Pull us apart and tear our relationship apart me and violent my wife and a lot of my beloved who are in a like a lifelong committed we've committed to each other to be in this in this structure for life and there'll be other men who move in and out potentially land in a permanent structure as well but that hasn't happened yet but that's fully open and available but we're in this structure and we've landed it and then to have thousands of people try to pull it apart well either they're going to succeed or. They're going to find the weak spots and allow us to actually heal those weak spots so they've only really it's only really made us stronger so I'm grateful for that but man it's it's comment it's coming to steep cost you know it's a lot of blood and then one of the hardest things about stepping into the public sphere in general is that everybody thinks they know you. It's it's really shocking it's like a shocking experience to have people who literally have never met you in person. No you so well that they can tell everybody about who you are and you're just sitting there reading it going. Oh my god like yeah what's even scarier is when you're completely convinced that if they meet you in person they're going to change their mind and they don't. They're just so entrenched in those boys. Yeah I mean it's it was such a strange experience because you know we have such a beautiful community and you know in times of difficulty like that like I'm so grateful for the ohana you know that's a Hawaiian word my wife's you know that's Hawaiian heritage and ohana means you're chosen family. And our chosen family is so strong you know from the medicine journeys and the experiences in the play and we have a lot of range you know we can be in a night club or sitting on a mountain and meditation for five hours or an Asian question and I was like we do all the things together and you know and from a hard workout and competition to you know the most radical like all of the things that build the this kind of community and the community is so strong and we have every single person nobody in our actual community because they all knew they've all been with us they know us they talk to everybody individually everybody knows everybody we're all together they see us interact. There was not a there was not a single crack or crevice that showed up in anybody who actually knew us but the whole world was convinced that they knew us way better than not only we know ourselves but that everybody else who's around us knew us you know it's it's a it's a very strange arrogance it's an arrogance really that you believe that you think you can know somebody based on a podcast or blog or I mean really. What do you think if you were to say like you know both of us have suffered you know we both suffered and what do you think the is there a blessing that comes from the suffering when does it come how does it come you know for those other people who are listening have suffered as well like what have you learned from your suffering that could be a kind of a guiding light for people moving forward from your ship for me and my partners and anything you know what is what's something you've learned from your your suffering I think suffering has the capacity to either put us in a position to choose to close up and to become a worse version of ourselves or the capacity to literally tenderize us to a degree that would become completely accessible in a relationship. Most of the gifts that I found in suffering have to do with my capacity to relate to other people and to meet them at a level where there are no it's like genuine true authentic relating I find that when we suffer we're able to go meet people at a level that most people can't go to kind of like the way that I relate to it sometimes is if somebody's drowning at a depth most people can't can't reach and so they're just down there alone and if you've suffered enough you do have the capacity to go there and the value of somebody who's drowning by themselves at those depths having somebody who's like grabs them and is there is actually present in those spaces it's a gift beyond measure. Yeah yeah no I feel that I feel that you know I think for me there was also a sense of it ripped a few of the last things that I was clinging to as part of my identity like Aubrey's the guy who's loved you know by the public the public loves him you know and and it it actually it ripped that from me and I also you know it was a cognitive behavioral fallacy but I over over generalize how much people I didn't mean but I but it basically went all the way to the point where okay the world aids me well shit I don't have to be attached to the world liking me anymore so actually I'm I'm free like wow I'm free and then I stepped into a public speaking you know experience at the maps conference and I was I didn't know if anybody was going to show up and I stand in the middle of this center stage and there's packed house 300 people and they all stood up and started clapping for me in the middle of it and I just broke down into tears now it's like holy shit like there are still some people who are out there who love me and and so it's but it's been it's been very liberating I have to say to and like you said it does it brings out you know brings out a deeper level of depth and authenticity to be liberated from these things that you're attached to in your identity nope well tealite this has been it's been beautiful to drop in with you I know that we've you know potentially may have cross paths at certain different times and places and I'm sure that we'll find ourselves in in shared spaces again you've mentioned a few times you have a you have a course coming out on the masculine and feminine or is it already out it's just it's basically on the mask even though technically you could say that this is for men and women and society in general it's an e course that is designed specifically for men so like the whole canter in which I talk is talking directly to men it's about mastering masculinity within the context of relationships and essentially teaching men how to be the woman that man's out of the woman that was a awful teaching men how to be what she can't live without right because a lot of men are confused about that and a lot of men are like I you know I don't understand what it where I had to do in this relationship with these women how do I understand them in a way that I can sort of show up in the way that they really would want need me and won't cheat and all this other stuff and so I'd answer all those questions yeah beautiful where can people find it on my website so if they go to see just I remember my name till swan.com everything's there beautiful beautiful well thanks so much for you know everything that you offered for the for the blood sacrifices that you paid to share your gifts to the world and you know on behalf of you you know men in general who've hurt you like I'm sorry I'm sorry sis you know I'm sorry that this is gone this way and I'm sorry for everybody not just to you but to everybody who has suffered because the real true father the hero you know hasn't been present and that's the real truth you know I really I really feel like you know we we can do better and we're gonna and we are you know I believe that yeah for sure for sure all right thank you so much to you thank you so much