Have you ever noticed how travel changes you?
You leave home thinking that you're just going somewhere new,
and you end up learning something about yourself.
That's what today's conversation is all about.
Identity, storytelling, and the kind of confidence
that comes from seeing the world through your own eyes,
not through somebody else's lens.
My guest is my friend Nicole Phillips.
She lives right at that intersection.
She's a journalist, popular travel influencer,
and brilliant storyteller who helps travelers
explore the world, and she does it with humor, honesty,
and a perspective that makes you think.
We talk about what it really means to show up as yourself,
online, in new cultures, and in life.
This episode is brought to you by granola,
Watnut Upwork, Skylight, Brevo, Factor, and Shopify.
If meetings are eating up your day,
granola is a no-brainer.
Try it free for three months at granola.ai/quami.
Search Watnut, wh-a-t-n-o-t in the app store, download,
and you can start selling right away.
Do you need expert help without the full-time commitment?
Upwork connects you with specialized freelancers
across 125 categories.
Visit upwork.com right now and post your job for free.
Right now, Skylight is offering our listeners $30 off
their 15-inch calendars at myskylight.com/quami.
To level up your marketing head to brevo.com/anything
and use code anything 50 to say 50% off your first three months.
Let's eat real.
Head to factormeals.com/quami50off
and use code Kwami50off to get 50% off
and one free breakfast item per box for one year
while supplies last until October 31st, 2026.
Are you ready to launch your business?
Start your free
[email protected]/quami.
(bell dings)
Are you ready to take your businesses marketing
to the next level?
Meet brevo.
The all-in-one marketing and CRM platform built to help you
connect with customers, boost engagement,
and grow your business smarter.
With brevo, you manage all of your customer interactions
in one place.
Nurture leads with their built-in CRM,
reach your audience through email and SMS,
and keep them coming back with powerful automations.
But here's where it gets really exciting.
Meet Aura, brevo's AI assistant.
Aura helps you to craft smarter campaigns
by suggesting personalized content,
optimizing send-as-times,
and even analyzing performance data
to help you improve your strategy in real time.
It's like having a marketing expert on your team 24/7.
And of course, brevo offers advanced analytics,
seamless integrations, and AI-driven personalization.
Everything you need to create multi-channel campaigns
that hit the mark every time.
Get started for free today or use code anything
50 to say 50% on starter and standard plans
for the first three months of an annual subscription.
Just head to www.brevo.com/anything
and take your marketing further with a brevo and Aura.
Playing it safe is easy.
Playing it safe is comfortable.
But here's the problem.
Playing it safe and playing by rules
that were never meant for you will never take you
to the next level.
If you've got what it takes to hit the ball out of the park,
the only thing holding you back
is whether you're brave enough to take a big swing.
I'm Kwame Christian and this is Big Swings Only.
Every week, we're telling you the stories
of people who fought their fear,
chased the life they actually wanted,
and became who they had to become to get it.
This show is built for people who are meant for more
because if you really want to get to the next level,
you've got to do something big.
So the question isn't whether or not you've got what it takes.
The question is whether or not you're going to swing.
You were built for more and this show was built for you.
Subscribe now.
You know what's funny, Nicole?
So when I was getting started speaking,
I started to do this exercise where I would say,
all right, I want to see, I want to kind of test myself.
And so what I would do is when I'm driving,
I would just see random things
and I would force myself to talk about that random thing
for two minutes, nonstop.
As like, okay, grass, well, let me tell you about grass.
You know, like as if I'm presenting on this,
you know, I see a cow, I'm in Ohio.
So I see a cow, I'm like, well, let me tell you about cow.
You know, and it's funny to see how a lot of these
little training things that I would do
from way back when are helping me today
when it comes to both of these.
- It's awesome, you are a great speaker
and it has encouraged me to try to speak more,
I think, be more intentional as I speak
so that I am more smooth with my delivery.
It's literally just listening to your voice
else, I was like, hey, you know what?
I gotta get better at this.
Especially if I'm trying to be more in the public speaking world.
So you are inspiring.
- Thank you, that means a lot.
And actually, this is funny
because this gives me an opportunity to go back
to an unintentionally controversial post that I made
and listeners, trust me, there's a segue coming from this too.
So I made this post where I said, hey, listen,
when I speak, people say, hey, Kwame,
you're very articulate, articulate, you speak so well.
And I know that there are some people who take that
as an insult where there's an assumption,
oh, you're a black person and then you speak well
and then that's why you get the compliment.
And I say, yeah, there are sometimes where that's true.
And also, there are sometimes where you as a person
or a black person, you have these skills
and then we deny the compliments
because we assume racial intent behind it.
And so my thing is, if I have an opportunity to feel good
with an interpretation of a situation,
I'm gonna feel good about it.
So yes, thank you, I do speak well.
That was very controversial online,
which I found to be very fascinating.
And it kind of segues into you and what do you do?
Because you don't talk just about travel.
You talk about the nexus between travel and race
and some of your posts have been
not kind of unintentionally controversial too.
- Yeah, so it's a very interesting space to be in first of all.
And you know, as they say in the world,
like there's no such thing as bad publicity.
So I guess for some people, there doesn't really matter
what the reason is that something takes off.
They're just happy that it took off.
And the internet, unfortunately though,
is a very terrible place.
The internet is very toxic, it's a very terrible place though.
I have had a few videos where I will post my thoughts
on something you might think that,
or I might think that it's completely benign.
No way this can be controversial
or I'm giving an opinion.
How can someone be so against my opinion?
And I'll share that and then it'll blow up
and then there'll be people telling me
all sorts of bio and crazy things.
And it can be difficult especially
when the topic is very specifically tied to race.
Now one thing about me, when I do my content,
I never post anything that I cannot stand
10 toes down on.
That is my baseline.
Because I know how the internet responds.
So if I'm going to post an opinion,
and I always tell people this,
I don't care about your thoughts and feelings
because when I post an opinion
or when I post some sort of like factual information,
when I say it is based in research,
these are well thought out opinions
based on not just experience,
but information that I have gathered
through my research, through talking to experts
within this field.
And so when people comment and they're like,
well, I think that when I went and I felt this,
okay, let's compare that to the Harvard study
that I read that also corroborates my feelings
on this particular thing.
Because before I decided to just say,
this is how I feel these are my thoughts.
I made sure that there was something backing this,
that it wasn't just something, I guess maybe irrational,
that I was feeling or thinking or whatever it is,
that there's actual support for what I experienced,
what I observed, what I noticed.
And I think that when you're able to do that
in the space that I'm in,
that involves this intersection of race, culture, travel,
when you're able to do that,
it makes it a little bit easier to deal with the vitriol
in the comments, because when you're like,
I mean, well, I'm right, you could be as mad as you want to be,
or like, or I feel good, I feel confident
in what I said, you could be as mad as you want to be.
And it's so important to me people,
and it's the last I'll say on this,
200 people post without doing a lick of research,
without doing any thoughts, they move very quickly,
which I understand the desire to do so,
because it never moves fast.
Of course, in the world, I get it.
But I think a lot more people should step back.
Breathe, read a little, you know,
read a little something before you give an opinion.
So your opinion can be educated.
Not enough people give educated opinion.
Let's say that.
- First of all, what is an educated opinion on the internet?
Nowadays, it's so rare,
except when we see people like you
who have a journalistic background.
I think that's one of the things
that separates you as an influencer,
because you're not just coming here,
you know, shooting from your hip.
It is grounded in research,
and there are some standards that you need to meet
as a journalist, you bring that journalistic expertise
and standard to what it is that you do,
and then you also ground it in experience
that nobody can take away from you.
And I think that's what has led to this incredible rise
that you had in such a short period of time,
since you've transitioned from being a journalist
full time to bringing the journalist
a background to your career as a travel influencer.
So yeah, I have this journalistic background.
So I started off in the television news industry for those who are familiar with my progression.
I was working at ABC News and I moved into the digital world and I was working at the New
York Times.
I actually worked on the 16-19 project at the time when I was really, really big.
I was working on the digital publication of that.
And I transitioned into social media.
So when I first started out, social media wasn't a big thing, as big of a thing as it is
now in terms of meeting people to actually man the social media channels for some of these
big brands and once that started becoming more of a thing, I started dabbling more into
the world of social media and it was around 20-21 when I decided that I wanted to start
getting my feet wet in that world and I was sharing my opinions.
I wasn't traveling yet, I was just sharing my opinion.
And the one thing that has always remained true when I share my opinions, share my thoughts
is that I cannot post a video without feeling like I'm on solid ethical ground.
Without feeling as though I can support the things that I'm saying with some sort of research,
some sort of reputable sorts.
I'm not just talking out of my behind, like I want to make sure that if anyone ever tries
to bombat me, tries to fight me on my opinion, I actually can hand reference some places
for you to go and read, beyond TikTok or beyond Instagram, some places where you can actually
go and read so that you can understand what I'm saying.
You don't have to agree with me, but if we're going to debate, let this be a little bit
more of an elevated, educated debate and not just an I feel, I think, like that.
And now when I decided I wanted to get more into the travel world, this was top of last
year.
Now, I left my job with no plan, mind you, I did not have a plan as to how I was going
to get this done.
I just decided that it was time for me to do my own thing, become a freelancer within
the world of social media and journalism and as well as become an influencer, a travel
influencer.
Just think about how non-sensical that sounds right now, I'm going to leave my job in the
middle of a white collar recession, that's what we're calling it now, right?
This is the white collar recession and I was working in tech at the time, so that was actually
the worst place to be trying to find a job in the middle of a white collar recession.
And I'm going to become an influencer, it's a very non-sensical, as my friend told me,
I'm going to quit my job, leave my job and become an influencer.
I would be like, that sounds actually crazy, and I need you to sit right in there in that
job, but you've just felt like the right time, the stars winded in the way that I needed
to, so I did that.
And one thing that had always been kind of the better off of everything I do within this
world is my opinions and my commentary.
So that's something I kind of, like I said, I did before and then I also molded that into
the travel content that I do, and it's always been something that people come to me before.
I start off doing reviews.
Reviews are heavily opinion based, right?
But even in those reviews of different cities, as you've seen clawing with my Italy review,
I was sharing articles, I guess not, like if I say this thing happened to me that I had
a negative experience in this place, it's easy to say that's just you.
But what's not easy to say is, what's not easy is to write off the experience of that
first black minister within the Italian Parliament, who had an epigee made a firm banana stone
at it, or that black athlete who was assaulted with eggs and her eye was injured, all of
the black, other black athletes who have banana stone at them while they're playing soccer.
It's harder to dismiss all of these different cases.
And so when I started doing these reviews, I started making sure that I was able to
put on other reference other experiences or reference other news articles, reference
other things that make it more difficult to say, "No, Nicole is just wrong, it's just
Nicole with experience."
And the reason why I do that is because I was inspired to do what I do because there was
a time when I thought I was the only one.
Now we got to bring it back, we actually got to bring it back.
So the year was 2013, I was a young lad, I'm just like, "Okay, let's stop.
I was probably 19, 20 years old."
I decided that I was going to study abroad in Italy, I went to NYU and it's kind of the
thing to do.
You don't go to NYU without studying abroad, it's known as the global campus, it's a
whole thing.
And I decided I was going to go to Italy.
Now I had never crossed the Atlantic, I had only gone to the Caribbean a few times, this
is my first time crossing the Atlantic, so my thoughts on Italy were what I saw on TV.
I was thinking about the Lizzie Mugloro movie, I was thinking about Vespa and Pizza and
Pasta and just like romance and it was just cute, like that's all I was thinking.
I had a few roommates who were also they had studied abroad in Italy, they had a great
time, they were telling me, "Oh my gosh, you have to go to this, a panini shop that's
around the corner from the school.
It's going to be so great."
Oh, and this other girl was talking about how she had her little Italian boyfriend and
it was just like an amazing, just whimsical, European story that you think about, that you
read about, that you eat, pray, love, all that, that's what I was hearing.
Now when I finally get my chance to experience all of this wonder and splendor of Italy, it
was the complete opposite of anything that I had imagined up to this point.
I had been prepped by my school for tellings being bold, no one said anything about racist.
I think one of the euphemism for racist, they're not politically correct.
Oh, racist.
Now now I know what that means.
And so I took kind of run down the incidents quickly.
I had had a beer thrown on, I was called a disgusting black woman while I defended a black
woman who was being manhandled while she was on the beach.
I had people cross the street on me screaming my face because they're afraid in broad daylight
that I'm going to mug them or something.
I've had people ignore me at that, and this is back when I was studying.
I had people ignore me while I was walking the sheet and asking for directions, literally
just turning their nose up at this point.
I spoke very good Italian so it wasn't that they didn't understand what I was saying.
There was just this overall feeling of being unwelcome.
I have to ask children for directions on the bus because adults didn't want to speak
to me.
I never felt so terrible at this.
I remember actually this is another thing that I didn't have hadn't shared in the article
that I wrote, nor did I share the video, but I remember a recent, I remember that.
I remembered recently when I went to a party at some point and this is after a few different
incidents had happened.
I thought I looked so good, I felt so good about myself, I had a beautiful black dress
on and I remember sitting on a couch and crying and I remember I was crying and I was like
I was crying because the day that I felt the most beautiful I'd ever felt in that country
I also felt the most unwanted, ugly, disgusting because of how people treated me because that's
how they treated me.
They did not want to interact with me.
They were moving away from me like you know you're dancing and then they kind of go over
to the corner like that had never had that happen to me and I just sat there and I cried.
I don't remember at what point in my journey or my time in Italy that was, but it just
had recently came back to my memory that time that I was like I was the girl crying in
the club, oh my gosh, I really, like that was me now I understand and I understand why
someone would do that.
And so those are, that's just some quick hits on the types of things that I experienced
while I was in this country and now these different incidents, they didn't just happen
in the city of Florence, I always want to make that clear to people I was traveling up
and down the country, I never felt welcome in any part of the country.
Scaling a business takes the right expertise at the right time, not eventually right when
you need it.
That's the whole idea behind upwork.
That's the one stop platform to find higher and pay expert freelancers across web and
software development data analytics, marketing business operations and more over 125 categories
of specialized talent.
So growing teams can move faster without waiting on a full time higher to get there.
You browse real profiles, review past work and get help scoping the role.
So you're hiring with confidence and getting started quickly, not guessing.
And if you want the best of the best business plus unlocks the top 1% of talent on upwork
with AI-powered shortlisting that matches you to the right freelancer in under 6 hours.
Upwork also takes the operational hassle off your plate, contracts, payments all handled
in one place so you can spend your time actually running your business, thousands of growing
businesses already trust upwork for everything from one of projects to ongoing support.
That's upwork.com to connect with top talent, ready to help your business grow.
That's u-p-w-o-r-k.com, upwork.com.
I was on What Not last week, scrolling through a live sale and I ended up walking away with
a pair of sneakers I'd been eyeing for months at a price that actually made sense.
That's the thing about What Not.
You almost never pay full price and the whole experience feels less like shopping and
more like hanging out with people who genuinely know their stuff.
And here's what I want you to hear.
I use what not, and if you've got something to sell, you should too.
What not is the largest live selling marketplace in the country, fashion, beauty, collectibles,
electronics, even things you wouldn't expect.
It doesn't matter if your business is big, small, or just an idea.
People selling on what not sell 10 times more than on other major marketplaces, because
you're not just listing a product.
You're building real connections with the people buying it.
The numbers back it up too.
The number of sellers making over one million dollars a year on what not has doubled.
This isn't just a side hustle.
For a lot of sellers, live selling has crossed the line into full-time work.
Buyers are spending more than an hour a day on the app, engaged, buying, and coming back
for more.
You go live, show off what you've got in real time, and turn what you love into real
income.
Search what not.
That's WHO, AT, and OT in the App Store, download it, and you can start selling right
the way.
We fast forward now about five years later, and I'm working up a New York Times.
I felt like I really wanted to share this story.
I reached out to, and this was really just to be cathartic, and make some money.
They pay you too.
Even if you're a staffer, they'll still pay you to write.
I want to get some rent money, and then also rent this story.
They took the pitch.
They were down with it, and so I decided, okay, I'll write this essay, really just for
me.
I'm looking, trying to find.
As I mentioned, when I write my thoughts, share my experience in the opinion, I try to find
things to corroborate.
You know, hey, let me do some research on these different types of things, so I tried
to look for other people who had my experience, and I wasn't finding anything.
I think I found maybe came across at that point, and this would be 2018, one blog, and that
was pretty much it.
I couldn't really find anything.
I did find the athlete who had her harmed by the egg, and I found the black ministers
who had the effigy made of her.
But just regular stories from other people, I wasn't seen.
And so I wrote my story.
I got my money.
I was happy.
I kind of was like, okay, this is a good release I had moved on.
That story got hundreds of thousands of views.
And it was after that story that all of those views, or, yeah, sometimes while the views
were building, I started getting all of these comments and messages on Twitter, and they
were like, wow, this happened to me.
Thank you for sharing this.
I'm an Asian woman, and this happened to me in this country.
I'm so-and-so, and this happened to me in that country, and there were just more and
more stories of people telling me that, thank you, I'm no longer alone.
I just felt like it was just me, thank you for sharing this.
And there were also some study abroad programs that had reached out to me and said, wow,
thank you for sharing this information.
We're now going to build this into our curriculum now to make sure that we better put areas
to these.
And I was like, here I was just trying to get my rent money, and get a little spending
money, and I kind of get some feelings out there.
And I started a whole conversation.
The mayor of Florence was reaching out to me, trying to invite me to speak with him.
Yeah.
Yeah, the mayor of Florence reached out to me to speak with students about racism, and
I never took him up on the offer, and he wasn't even a direct, it didn't feel like a
real invite, because he just kind of, I think he said it to a newspaper, we invite Nicole
to come out, if you really want to invite me, you reach out directly to me.
You know, I work at the mayor, if you really want to reach out to me, but he was like,
no, I, we invite her to come speak, it's just students about racism, and all that.
And I was like, I, you know, I could have found a way to try to reach out to him myself,
but I was like, I don't want to be his Kanye.
And if you remember the time how Kanye was being you, I was like, I don't want to be his
Kanye.
And so I just kind of let that, yeah.
So I never took him up on the offer.
I was being dragged in tabloids or Italian tabloids, I guess.
I was interviewed for Vanity Fair Italy.
It became a whole thing, off of this story that I thought was just me getting my feelings
out there.
I didn't know what to do with this though, right?
I didn't know what to do with this understanding, and knowing that there's clearly a gap here
in what travel is like for Black people.
I didn't actually know what to do with this information, or not just Black people, because
like I said, there are people of other races reaching out to me at home.
So I didn't really know what to do with this.
This was before social media was really popping, like YouTube was like the thing in terms
of content creation.
And so I didn't really know what to do with this.
So I just kind of kind of let that be what it was, an interesting moment in my life where
I felt like I did something important.
And then that's when TikTok came around and I told you all about that and how I came
to where I am today.
And so why I do what I do, and I'm actually kind of forgot exactly what started me on this
little backstory, but why I do what I do is because for so long, I thought I was the
only one.
And I hurt for five years thinking that my story wasn't anomaly.
And thinking that maybe I had done something, maybe it was because I looked to this, looked
to that.
Maybe it was just so many things going through my head.
And that is what encouraged me, seeing the response to that story.
And people still reach out to me today about that story.
Or someone will talk to me and be like, that was you, I ran that, you know, like that
after they find out.
But what I do today, when I talk about my experiences as a traveler, when I review these different
cities, when I dig deep into cultural cultures and histories that people don't really think
about or talk about, I do it because of my past experience and wanting to feel more connecting
to the travel community in a way that made me feel seen.
Right?
So I want to create content for other people out there who are like, I want to go to
XYZ place, but should I like what would it be like for me as a dark skinned black woman
or a woman of Asian descent, whatever it is, what would it be like for me?
And that's what I make content for.
And anyone else who wants to be privy to what life is like when you don't look, when you
might look a certain way or whatever that is, I have a very wide ranging audience, which
is what I love to see. There are people from all walks of life, all backgrounds, all
races, all cultures who enjoy my content, because at the same time as I'm sharing this information
so that I can help people to be better prepared than I was, that's at the baseline, better
prepared than I was, or what life would be like abroad, while at the same time I'm doing
this, I'm also just providing historical information and cultural information and humor.
I have, I like to make people laugh, like in between, in between all that.
I like to make people laugh. So I'm happy to see the audience that I've built over time
and to see that I'm helping to, there's a lot, I will also say, there are a lot more
resources now than when I was traveling. But I'm happy to be one of those resources now
for people who are looking to travel so that they can, like as I mentioned before, be
better prepared than I was.
There's so much to explore here. So first of all, thank you for telling the story and
your experience. And I realize also the, this is like a public good that you've created
with the information, because it's so important for people to have appropriate intel going
into a situation. Because like you said before, you thought you were the only person who
experienced this. And it wasn't until you shared that story that other people came to you
to share more about the fact that they had similar experiences. But going into it, even
if you still, if you could have had the opportunity to read your piece from somebody or a piece
from somebody like you before going, at least you would have been able to go in with a
little bit more of a heads up like, oh, this is not just going to be, you know, Vespas
and Apparel Spritz. You know, there's going to be some bold behavior that is way farther
than bold, like flagrant or racist, right? So you could actually be more, more prepared.
And I remember for, here's an example. It doesn't, it doesn't really, it's, it's, it's
slightly different. But I remember when I did my TED Talk, there was somebody that they
had a series of mentors that you could talk to before going into. And there was a guy
who was a gay male, who was talking about his experiences, a gay man. And so he said
he was so excited about his TED Talk. He was very proud of it. And one of the first comments
he got was, man, I can't even hear this because he sounds so gay. And he's like, I would,
like me and my partner, we were devastated. We were so excited sharing that out to everybody
that we knew. And then I saw that comment. I was just, I felt a shame. And so I knew they
coached me. They're like, listen, you're going to get some comments. And so going into that,
I knew I was going to get it. So it changed the impact that it had on me, you know?
And so that's why it's so important for you and people like you to share these stories.
It's not spreading negativity. It's spreading information that like we said, going back to
your, your background as a journalist and somebody who cares about the truth and sharing
experiences actually.
You have the data to substantiate it and then you also have your experience and you treat the topic fairly, right?
And so it's I just want to make sure that I I check that box. I let people know why this is so important
And I also want to talk about how you handle the the the folks who are ignorant who comment on your post
I remember in particular there was somebody who commented on your
Your Italy post who said I think and I'm quoting here
I'm sorry that happened to you and my experience was much different and the way you handled that man in the comments was just a master class
Can you tell us about that?
Yes, this is a serious man. Oh, wow only who knew who he was
So, yes
The man the comments the comment section is the worst place on the internet and and I kind of handle it
Similarly to what you just described is like knowing this is the type of
backlash or or commentary that you're going to get when you go into certain spaces
Looking the way that we do being who we are, you can be talking about butterflies and rainbow that does not matter sometimes
people who want to be ignorant are going to be ignorant and
Having that knowledge because after Italy as you as you've seen
I continued to travel. It's not that racism never stopped happening right didn't just stop
I was so much better prepared for it that it didn't have to ruin the entire experience
So that's important to to know like in the beginning
comments are really
hurtful and and and it can be kind of harsh
But then I started realizing
This is the way of the internet
I expected it I can kind of anticipate at this point the type of comments I'm going to see
And they're like for every video there are three types of comments and people reword them in different ways and post them on different times
Right then there's not they're not original you may not share original thoughts in these comments and so
I've come to anticipate the types of comments that I'm going to get and so I
Am for the most part ready
And like I said because I
Research before I post I can stand 10 dot 10 toes down on everything that I say so the comments
Not really about it now the types of comments that would bother me or is the comment that was that's like well
Actually this piece of information is incorrect and then I go back and find out that piece of information actually isn't correct
And I'm like dang it
You got me
You're actually right man now I gotta take the whole video down those are the types of comments that would bother me
Because
That means I failed I didn't do my part you're right like I actually messed up
I I shared incorrect as a journalist especially this bothers me something
We don't mind being long on the internet or like sharing misinformation on the internet
I do
And so you've told me now I did not do my my due diligence as a journalist now I either have to like do a edit
You know in the caption
You know this is new information or something. I'm going to thank you for whatever depending on how you how you share it
If you're mean to me, I'm just a little easier comment and I'll add my edit but I'm just you don't get to be mean to name my comments
But those are the types of comments that would bother me the types of comments that show that I did not do my due diligence as a journalist
And but that means I just needed I need to do something I need to correct
The other types of comments I'm quick with the delete block restrict
Like all it's like I and whatever I am quick to hit that button I
Now you can use this or not if you want to but I'm like I am not the US government. I do not owe you freedom of speech
I'm in platform. If you say something I do not like if it's me if it's hurtful whatever it is
I do not owe you the right to stay in my comments section. I don't owe you that
And so and freedom of speech just not as people say does not mean freedom of consequence
So if your speech gets you blocked
That that was the consequence and and so I
Protect my peace in that way
I monitor my comments very very very strictly and so I am always on top of it, but I have rarely seen a comment that actually
bought hurt me in recent like in the past like year or so
Haven't seen a comment that actually hurt me in any way because
Like I said, it's the same three comments over and over again written in different thoughts
It makes sense and the but the thing is too nickel because you do the which I think is smart
You block restrict the people who are toxic. There are some toxic comments that are meant to be
Intentionally hurtful, but then they're just ignorant comments that you still entertain
I don't want to say entertain in terms of you consider it legitimate
But you at least are you're willing to respond in a way that is
Is oftentimes much more respectful than the commenter deserves and I want to talk about that ethos too because I think that's unique
Yeah, so
That's I'm working on being nicer commenter like no no responding nicer to comment. So that's a new thing
um, I
Usually I mean I have no problem being a little spicy if I need to be spicy, but I'm always very just aware of like digital footprint
And things like that. I'm not going to say anything
Insulting anything that I would have read if you if someone took a screenshot of that and sent it to a partner that I have a partnership with like a brand or something like that
I don't want to feel like oh, yeah, now I gotta explain that word like I don't ever want that to be a situation that I'm in so I
I think a lot of it has to do with just understanding like I said the digital footprint aspect of thing and then also
Being mean doesn't necessarily get the response that you want. I just I usually just respond to facts like
Oh, that's actually incorrect here here. Here's the fact sometimes I'll just ask like my favorite response to people when they say and I'm and it's always when someone's obviously not black
I say this whenever someone says
That's incorrect like I like it's let's say it's a review about Italy. Let's go back to that
Oh, that's incorrect. That's not right. Italy's not a racist place. My favorite way to respond to that type of person is are you black
Mind you. They they're profile picture will be
Why does it be really clear that they are not now to say are you black
And that usually like it gets the point across are you black
It gets everything across. I don't have to say anything more and
I do my best to not respond to a comment to like more than maybe twice to a person
Like they'll respond to me. They'll respond again. I do my best to respond more than twice. But that's
Something that I'm currently working on because sometimes I will start going back and forth and I'm like actually this person like this person is just saying words
Now I'm going back and forth with someone who's just just saying anything that comes to their head
They're not actually doing any ounce of research. They're just going to stick to their thoughts and feelings and call it a day
So eventually I will just stop responding but I do try my best is something I'm I'm really doing more and more now to back to that
Mysterious commenter then then left that that that comment and who knows who that could be
Um, that was actually a time when I was practicing how I respond specifically to that sort of comment that comment of
That that where the sentiment is general is is essentially
That didn't happen to me. So it doesn't happen. There's different variations of that didn't happen to me. So it's not true
And I've been trying to work on how do I respond to that because I get that a lot
That when you do reviews and you talk about your experiences and especially when you're a black woman talk about your different experiences
You will come across a lot of that didn't happen to me. So it doesn't happen
and
When I the way in which I was responding before
Was not getting the right response people it's just say well, that's just their opinion
Why can't they just share their opinion and that's and I'm like oh, no, it's not just about the it's different if
it's different to
genuinely share like
An opinion maybe in your own video. I see none of the people have this such and such a experience
But here's my experience, but you find it like to hijack my video to now say
This is my experience you're kind of invalidating even if you don't do hit hit a little
I'm sorry, but anyway, this didn't happen to me
The way I equate this is and I actually saw originally saw someone say this in a thread post that I posted
And I was like this is a perfect way to articulate this is that
When someone shares about experience when they're traveling or from travel
And you say something like oh well, I'm sorry, but that didn't happen to me
Is equivalent of saying you know, I'm sorry that your leg is broken both of mine still work
So you're looking at someone's pain and like you're saying well, I'm sorry you're in pain, but I'm actually I'm perfectly fine
I feel great actually and and and and just and if you think about it in that respect
it makes you
Hopefully makes you the commenter rethink why why did I say that why did I say that that way it does kind of
Invalidate this person's very real experience my two legs working does not mean that their leg doesn't work
My me having good experience is not mean that they did not have a good experience and to add to that
Some of the frustration I feel when coming to those sorts of comments is that if they would just scroll
Reload it. They'll see so many other comments of people having a very very similar experience to me
That you can see it's not just me
Scaling a business takes the right expertise at the right time not eventually right when you need it
That's the whole idea behind upwork. It's the one stop platform to find higher and pay expert freelance
investors across web and software development, data analytics, marketing, business operations,
and more.
Over 125 categories of specialized talent, so growing teams can move faster without waiting
on a full-time hire to get there.
You browse real profiles, review past work, and get help scoping the role, so you're hiring
with confidence and getting started quickly, not guessing.
And if you want the best of the best, business plus unlocks the top 1% of talent on Upwork
with AI-powered shortlisting that matches you to the right freelancer in under 6 hours.
Upwork also takes the operational hassle off your plate, contracts, payments, all handled
in one place, so you can spend your time actually running your business, thousands of growing
businesses already trust Upwork for everything from one-off projects to ongoing support.
That's Upwork.com to connect with top talent, ready to help your business grow, that's
UPWORK.com Upwork.com.
I was on What Not last week, scrolling through a live sale, and I ended up walking away
with a pair of sneakers I'd been eyeing for months at a price that actually made sense.
You almost never pay full price, and the whole experience feels less like shopping and
more like hanging out with people who genuinely know their stuff.
What Not is the largest live selling marketplace in the country.
Fashion, beauty, collectibles, electronics, even things you wouldn't expect.
People selling on What Not sell 10 times more than on other major marketplaces, because
you're not just listing a product, you're building real connections with the people buying
it.
The number of sellers making over $1 million a year on What Not has doubled.
Search What Not.
That's WHAT and OT in the App Store, download it, and you can start selling right away.
In my view, in the video, I've provided other examples, but if you scroll just a little
bit, you'll see so many other people saying yes, this happens to me.
You'll see Italians saying yes, this is how my country is.
You'll see Black Italians saying yes, this is how things are.
It is frustrating, which is why we're used to responding more harshly to people like
that, and then I've decided, okay, that's not working though, let me try a different
approach.
I think, from a very practical position, your source of confidence.
It comes from being able to stand ten toes down on what it is that you're saying, because
you did the work.
When you think about all of the tough conversations we might have day to day, if you take the
time to prepare and make sure that your arguments are unassailable, and they're rooted in fact,
and also you can, whenever possible, base it by citing sources that are outside of yourself,
not biased in your own favor, then it makes it so much easier for you to have those conversations.
Number one, and number two, it doesn't feel like a personal threat, because a lot of times,
if you're not as prepared, the comebacks that people might have or the criticisms might
seem scarier, because you yourself don't know how to respond, but you've done the work.
For that mystery commenter, I was so impressed with how you handled it, because I was able
to go back and see how this clown embarrassed himself, because I was able to look at my book,
how to have difficult conversations about race, and say, this is what he did, and this
is what he did, and this is why he was wrong.
And that person was me, who was the person who said that comment, it's me.
And what was funny is that I just like, like a week before came back from Italy and had
a nice time, and I was like, oh no, Italy's race is too.
And then I just gave that comment and passed and moved on.
And then as soon as you responded with, hey, that's like saying, hey, I'm sorry, your leg
is broken, but mine worked fine.
I was like, oh my lord, I am a case study that for my next book, right?
And the thing, but again, you handled it so well.
And in a way that allowed me to just accept responsibility, I wrote the like the longest
apology in two separate comments.
And I wanted to make sure that people could see the, like the, the error in my ways, but
also how well you handled it too.
Because if you would, let's say it's somebody else, and if you would have responded harshly,
then they feel bad and focus on their own feelings without evaluating their thought process
and their beliefs and what it is that you're saying.
So I just want to give you like kudos because it was a master class.
And it's not, you know, the best way for relationships to start, but here we are
our friends now, it's good.
It worked out in the end, but I think the reason why it did was because you handled yourself
so well in that interaction.
And instead of like giving me the smackdown, which I fully deserved, and you would have
been well, if you're right to do, you chose a different approach that was far more persuasive.
And now hearing this thought process and how you're saying, hey, intentionally, I want
to, I want to practice responding in a way that is more aligned with my ultimate goals.
Because you, you might want to clap back at somebody harshly and it might make you feel
good in the moment, but it doesn't further your ultimate aim.
And so you're just, I just wanted to make sure that we, I give you your flowers on that
because you're doing it in such a really good way.
Thank you.
That comment was my, my testing ground for, for my response, we're the first person that
I was able to respond to with that.
And I'm glad that it turned out the way that it did.
I didn't know there were so people that were like, no need to be me in a route or whatever.
You, you have so much attitude, whatever it is, like, you can't win.
I was, I was so upset.
Nicole, I was like, I, I, I, I gave like a 30,000 word dissertation on why I was wrong.
Do not come in here and support me in my ignorance.
It was wild.
People are, people will read whatever they read things the way they want to read it and
talk for things the way they want to interpret it.
I can only do my best to respond in a way that that educates as best I can instead of pushing
people away.
I think that, I think that we've lost the recipe and how to do that a lot just in general.
And I'm trying, I'm just saying I'm perfectly, so next you know someone goes through my comments
and they're like, wasn't she saying she was being nice to me and flowers, she was, she's
trying to educate.
I called a few people, a couple of picnies in the comments of Utah and some of them.
You might say, please don't please some of those.
But I do feel like we have lost the, the ability to kind of have some of these less, the escalated
conversations and to be a little bit more, I don't know, maybe the word is, is empathetic.
I think also it was easier for me to give you that sort of response because your comment
didn't, wasn't angry or wasn't hateful, it wasn't, it was just, I didn't have that experience.
And to me, that seemed like it was coming more from a place of just not realizing what
this says, what this does.
And so I was like, okay, I think this person wasn't trying to harm, you know, bring harm.
They just, it truly did not really think about this.
So I think this is a good opportunity to respond in this way.
And I think that as we go through life, as we're having negotiations, as we're communicating
with people, I think practicing a little bit more of that de-escalation, you know, maybe
try to like speak to people here, here are some examples, maybe they might not understand
if I just cursed them out.
So maybe I should try giving, I'll start a new example for them to understand why this
might sound like this or how this can come up and kind of helping people to understand
how you feel.
And that's what that comment did and let you know how I feel, because it was a way that
I hadn't been able to articulate in a while until I saw that person on my threads post say
that as to why it bothered me so much when I read that.
And again, my initial responses to people were, you're invalidating me, you just want
everybody to see you as like some, you know, one of the good ones, like you just think
you're so great.
And then, and then I was like, this is actually a much better way.
Let me tell you how I feel.
And I want you to, and I'm going to explain in a way that maybe we can all relate to
and see where that takes me in.
It brought me here.
So here we go.
It's so funny.
It's like, what are the odds?
You have a persuasion technique you want to try out and it's like, oh, let me try it
out on the CEO of the American negotiation institute.
What does he think?
Well, Chef's kiss, it was perfect.
Perfect.
And I think this actually gives us a good opportunity to pivot too, because when we look
at the arc of your career, now as an influencer, one of the things that is part of that life
is the brand deal, the art of negotiating brand deals, but more even before the actual
negotiation, it is how you're able to make yourself attractive for the brands who ultimately
want to work with you.
When you think about your background as a journalist, how has that impacted the brand
deals that you've been able to attract?
I think that that has been incredibly helpful in the brands that I attract, because I'm
talking about pretty, for some, could be controversial topics, things that could really
go left depending on who was delivering the information.
And I can only imagine that for some people, it makes it more difficult for them to be
attractive two brands because they might be kind of nervous about
the reputation or you know this might be a little too spicy or whatever it is for us.
But because of the journalistic background that I have and the fact that I weave that
into the work that I do, I'm able to present information in a way that is not super controversial,
it's not going to get me canceled. I'm not sharing any sort of unfounded opinion that is going
to make a brand look bad for working with me. And I think that's been one of the biggest
drivers of the engagement that I've seen, the popularity that I've seen, the growth that I've seen.
And because I'm brand safe, it makes the content that I create brand safe, even though I'm still
in this lane that can so easily become not brand safe, depending on which direction you want to
go in or how you deliver the information. I'm able to use my journalistic background to create
brand safe content that still makes me attracted to the different brands who want to work with someone
who reaches these different communities who can speak to these difficult topics, who can be someone
who is a trusted source and is authentic within these spaces while still, you know, telling it like
it is and whatever it is, while still being able to have the brand safety in this that brands do
look for because that's important for them. They want someone that like if you attach our name to
this person, how does this make us look? And I, and because I tried to be very ethical, I tried to
make sure that all of my opinions are well structured, founded, and researched and all of that,
it helps me to be able to stay true to who I am, deliver the content and the way that I want to
deliver it while also making sure that a brand can still see themselves working with me.
So smart. It makes, it makes a lot of sense. And I want to double-click on one phrase that you
said, one term, you said well structured. And that, that really set off like an alarm, not an alarm
bell, like a siren in my head, like that's what it is that makes your, your content stick out so
much because it is so well structured. There's an intentionality behind the delivery in a way that
I, that is rare in the industry too. So this, can we take a little, little side quest here to get a
master class on well structured content because I feel like the art of structuring ideas and
communication in, in a high level way, it's becoming a lost art. So when you talk about well structured
content, well structured writing, what does that really mean? Ah, yes, let me, let me put you in
journalism 101. Let's, let's do this because I actually, that, that is how I have developed my
content over time to mirror that of the things that I did while I was full-time journalist working
with these journalism companies. And I look at it and you can look at it the same way whether you're
doing a video or you're doing an article is you have your lead or your hook, whichever you want to
call it, your nut graph, which is your paragraph that kind of encapsulates everything. And if people want
to keep going forward, they'll keep going to read more information as you're doing this. We look at
it as like an inverted pyramid, I believe it is. So it, and then the information distills itself.
And at the very end, we have what's called a kicker. So it's just like a little bit of information.
Maybe it's just a little humorous quip, whatever it is, kicks you out of the story. Here in
journalism 101, that is the basics of an article. Lead, nut graph kicker. Everything in between,
like people should be able to read your nut graph and you don't know everything they need to know.
And then they read everything else. They want a little bit more information. Your kicker is just
one last bit of something that maybe didn't fit in the rest of everywhere else. It's just a little
bit of extra information, if you're talking about a video, maybe it's just like a little funny
ender, whatever it is. And that is how I tend to structure my videos. Now the most important part for
me as a social media strategist, as a journalist, as a person, as a content creator is the the lead,
the hook. It's always the most important part. I always suggest that people spend 75% of the time
on that hook. Maybe you could do like 50% of the time on the hook then maybe 25%, but 25%
on the nut graph. So that first 15, 10, 15 seconds, the majority of your time should be spent there.
Right? The rest of it should be. Oh, this is brilliant. Okay, because what's, when I hear other
influencers and you're more than an influencer because you actually teach people how to do this,
you do consulting as well. I want to make sure that we shout that out as well. So many people just
focus on the hook and obviously the hook, the lead that's important. But then the rest of it kind of
is forgotten. Let's dig into the nut graph because first of all, it's a term I've never even heard
before. So what would be the anatomy of a good nut graph after we get past the lead?
So you get past your hook, you got people in, your nut graph will have your who, what, where, when line
how? So this is, if you're doing like an article, you'll say, the fire on 13th Street involving
three kids was extinguished by the fire department at 5B incident. If you read nothing more, you know
the story. Oh, man. That should be your nut graph. And then you disseminate, you, you, as you continue to go down, you have more information. If someone's
really, let me, maybe they're really curious about this fire. They're like, wait, is that the one
next to the hello card that I used to go to? I need to know because that's when my kid's school is
that you're, now you're going in deeper, you're giving more information to that person to care
enough to read past that because they really want to know. Most people probably aren't reading past
that nut graph. Now that nut graph. And this, when we're talking about that, that can be either
your directly after the hook or it can maybe be a, like a second paragraph down. It just needs to be,
it needs to be up there at that top. Usually it's directly up here. But sometimes you get away with
it being like your, the next paragraph down. But you want that to be in there, the who, what,
where, when, why, and how? And if no one watched anything more or listened or read anything more,
they've come away with enough. Now when it comes to video, most people are really only watching
a few seconds. So they might, that's how people stick so much to the hook, the hook, the hook.
And that's why I say also to put so much, so much information into the hook because most people are
choosing with most first five seconds that they want to watch. They're probably not watching past
like 20, 30 seconds. And that's when you start looking at your analytics and you'll start seeing
what your drop-off rates are, how long are people watching? Most people are not watching to the end
of the video. And that's also why when you read an article, those extra details offered people who
are super interested in the ones who are really going to watch to the end, the most, or read to the end,
most of them aren't. That's why you want to make sure that the crux here information is somewhere
close and towards the top. Make so much sense. This is, this is really good because now I'm evaluating
some of the posts that I did that went well. Now I'm understanding why and now I'm getting a better
understanding of the ones that did not do well. Why did they not do well? No, that's, that's great.
Now let's get, let's get back to the, the, the brand deals too because I think this is really
interesting. When you think about, if you're talking to people who want to become an influencer and
they see a future in that for them, what were some of the most surprising things that you ran into
in this journey that you didn't see coming? Are you referring to working with brands or just
in general? In general, in general. Let's see where you go with this, Nicole.
Some surprising things. I was surprised and I don't know if this is unique to me or if this is
something that other people would experience. I was surprised how much my network would go into
come through for me. My non, my non content creator, non influencer network was going to come through
for me in the sense that I did not go into this being like, who can I reach out to as I, you know,
do this influencer thing? Like who can help me? I did not think that I had anyone who could really
help me in this arena. All I do was post my content and then suddenly people who I had worked
out worked, sorry, people who I had worked with years ago, five years ago, almost 10 years ago,
started reaching out to me and they're like, hey, I no longer work at ABC News. I now work at
this place and we're actually looking for some creators to do XYZ thing and I've been watching
you. And that was just such a reminder to me and it's that, and there's a few times that this
has happened now. And that's, and I should back up. That's how I was able to get a partnership
with TripAdvisor. That's how I was able to get a, that is how I was able to get my essay with
the today's show. The today's show reached out to me to write an essay about what I've been doing
as a content creator because someone else who had been following me from years ago,
but through my name out there, I was like, hey, you should reach out to this person.
Right? So one thing that was, it feels so obvious to say out loud, but one thing that was still
surprising to me is that you really never know who was watching. And that was something that I,
we, it's like, yeah, you never know, but then like you really never know. At one point,
the US government reached out to me in 2024 and November to come to a travel creator open house.
I was one of eight creators that they asked to come out to this travel creator open house
to like get a tour of the State Department to, to learn about passport safety. Now I have like
friends at the State Department. I like, I like to brag about that. That's my little, my little flex
is like a friends at the State Department. And it's really like you really never know
who is watching you at any moment. I've had Cisa commented on that same Italy video. Cisa commented
on that, on that Italy video on why, not like what? Oh my goodness. Why is the name Questlove?
Questlove commented as well on that same video. I had posted a video about a Jamaica resort and
Why is everyone's name?
Kenan Ivory Wayans had liked that video.
It's very, it's just interesting,
the different people who are seeing my,
it just blows my mind.
Like, yes, I understand, it's just for everyone.
Anyone can see it.
Anyone can experience the internet,
but it just really blows my mind to see it in practice.
- It is kind of weird.
It is kind of weird when you see
like a blue check, like your thing or comment,
and you're like, wait, who, you?
What, what, you're watching me?
You're like, you are watching the Kenan Ivory
and saw something that I made.
Like, that's, that blew my mind.
And so that's something that I was really
just not prepared for.
And then also another thing when it comes
to just working with brands in general
is just the understanding that not brands
are still very new to working with influencers.
A lot of brands are still very new
to working with influencers.
And so, things aren't always as smooth
as you might assume them to be
'cause you're like, oh, this is a big brand
or whatever it is, they aren't always as smooth
as you might expect simply because they're still learning.
This is a very new space in terms of working with influencers
maybe in the past few years.
People have really started taking influence
and marketing more and more seriously
as we see that this is the direction of marketing.
And so that was one thing I was interested,
it was that I found interesting to learn as I was doing this.
And their brands heavily rely on your expertise
as the creator.
And they're very open to, what do you bring?
You know your audience.
We wanna know what you can bring,
give us your ideas and it's not so much here.
This is what we need to do, save these lines, you know,
and get the video done.
They're really open to your ideas
and because you know what best to do
to work with your audience.
And I think the best brands tend to be
hand more hands off with that because of that understanding
rather than making a bunch of tweaks.
They'll be like, you know, your audience, this is good
and those make for some of the best collaborations.
- I was on What Not last week scrolling through a live sale
and I ended up walking away with a pair of sneakers
I'd been eyeing for months at a price
that actually made sense.
I use What Not and if you've got something to sell,
you should too.
It doesn't matter if your business is big, small
or just an idea.
People selling on What Not sell 10 times more
than on other major marketplaces
because you're not just listing a product.
Buyers are spending more than an hour a day on the app.
Engaged, buying and coming back for more.
You go live, show off what you've got in real time
and turn what you love into real income.
Search What Not.
That's WHAT and OT.
In the app store, download it and you can start selling
right away.
Scaling a business takes the right expertise at the right time.
Not eventually, right when you need it.
It's the one-stop platform to find higher and pay
expert freelancers across web and software development,
data analytics, marketing, business operations, and more.
Over 125 categories of specialized talent.
So growing teams can move faster without waiting
on a full-time hire to get there.
You browse real profiles, review past work,
and get help scoping the role.
And if you want the best of the best, business
plus unlocks the top 1% of talent on upwork
with AI-powered shortlisting that matches you
to the right freelancer in under six hours.
Upwork also takes the operational hassle off your plate,
contracts, payments, all handled in one place.
So you can spend your time actually running your business,
thousands of growing businesses already trust upwork
for everything from one-off projects to ongoing support.
That's upwork.com to connect with top talent ready
to help your business grow.
That's UPWORK.com upwork.com.
Makes sense.
And I think it's an important note to focus on and kind
of expand, too, because I think a lot of times we
can devalue our own expertise and cower
in the face of people who seem to have more power and authority.
But that's the distinction--
I'll put my negotiation nerd glasses on real quick.
It's a distinction between power and leverage.
Both are tools of influence, but power
comes from something that's more easily observable and more
fixed, but leverage that strategic advantage.
And a lot of times we don't acknowledge or appreciate
the leverage that we bring to the table.
And it might be expertise.
It might be audience.
Whatever it happens to be, that is your uniqueness.
Let's bring that to the table and stand on that
and be willing to shape these relationships, too.
Because a lot of times people would just say,
oh, well, this is TripAdvisor.
This is today.com.
I'm just going to do what they say.
I'm grateful for being here thanks for the opportunity.
So I know, actually, you're working with me
because I have something that you don't have.
I have access that you want through me.
So yeah, this is a partnership.
And I'm going to say my piece.
And I'm going to shape the direction of this partnership
because there is some value, a high degree of value
that I bring, a high degree of expertise.
And I feel confident enough to stand on that.
Yes, yes.
I always talk about your unique value ad as a creator.
You always have to present that to the brand.
What is your unique value ad?
Because there are a bunch of creators out there.
There are a bunch of people doing the same thing
and talking about all the different topics.
Well, what makes you stand out?
And that's important for your branding.
Make sure you're bio on Instagram, on LinkedIn, wherever it is.
Really explains what your unique value ad is.
That's something that I've been making sure to shape
for myself as well, making it clear to people
that I am also a journalist in addition
to being a travel colleague or creator.
So it's very clear that I'm not just making content.
I tell people, it's not just about aesthetics and vibes.
I'm not just making aesthetics and vibes content.
I'm also trying to educate and bring some more information
and be a voice within this space.
And so that aspect of all of this is who are you?
Why should we work with you?
There are 10 different creators that on paper might look just
like you if we don't know any more information about you.
So you need to be doing your best to make sure
that who you are is always clear.
It's always presented when you're doing your pitches.
Make sure that your background and your unique value
ad is always at the forefront, especially
before you start getting brands.
Because in this world, just like in the working world,
it's like in the career world, you have to have experience
to get experience.
So yeah, so before you have all those big brands
under your belt and you can say, well, I've already worked
with such and such in this person and that person,
you need to be able to prove yourself even more so
with just who you are in the type of content you create
and why you should be the one--
why should you should be paid thousands of dollars
to promote this brand?
And so that's when it becomes even more important.
Yes.
And listeners, if you're saying, man,
I need to listen to more of Nicole on this particular topic.
Nicole was featured in Forbes.
So you can get access.
By the time this comes out, that article will be out.
So we'll link to that too.
And I think a cool place for us to land this plane
is kind of coming full circle.
Talking about the big leap that you took,
or as we would say, the big swing, right?
What-- when you were leaving a great career
to start something new, I want to--
I want us to just take a zoom into your mind and walk us
through what you were thinking, why you wanted to do it,
and what courage was necessary to do it?
You want the truth, the real answer?
Let me keep it real.
I am so vehemently anti-corporate America.
I am so--
I am so anti-I'm so over it.
I-- and I just kept thinking to myself, oh, it's just--
let me leave this job.
It's a just the job.
Let me go to another job.
Let me do a different role.
Let me try a different-- maybe it's Mark.
Let me go to Mark.
And I kept thinking it was all of this corporate America.
And you can feel free to use this or not use it.
But my genuine thoughts are, corporate America
was not necessarily designed for women who look like me
to succeed.
It was not designed for us.
We were not in mind when they were deciding what
office politics would be.
We were not-- who they were thinking about when they decided
what climbing the corporate ladder looks like,
and who can be at the top, and all of those things.
It is a particularly hostile circus for Black women.
It is an increasingly difficult place
to be able to succeed.
And I found myself trying to climb this ladder.
And I was like, climb this ladder to what end?
I'm not good at-- I shouldn't say I'm not good
at-- I have no desire to play the game.
Not in the corporate sphere.
I have no desire.
A lot of what it takes to succeed in the corporate space
requires you to shrink yourself to make yourself smaller,
to allow yourself to put into a box,
to not share your thoughts and opinions.
People-- I've said this before-- people
will hire you for your expertise,
but then they don't want to hear your opinion.
And it requires you to be able to kind of grin and bear
a lot.
and I say, I say this and I forget I'm used to see if you want to or not but one
thing I was jokingly say to people I was like my problem was I know how to shut the
fuck up. My problem was I never always I was gonna say something but didn't look
right if you didn't smell right it I was gonna say something and that was my
problem. You're too honest for corporate America you're like this
honesty big is killing me. They don't actually want you to be honest they don't
actually want you to like say how you feel say your thoughts and things like
that it's like not actually that's how you play the game here it's when they say
to do something it's yes amen they say jump it's how high you don't question
you just do and I started realizing that and then I was like oh but you know
sometimes it just gets so hard because you're like well that's so wrong that's
not like no that doesn't actually make sense but they don't need to do it and okay
and so that made it increasingly difficult for me I also was just tired of the
circus the the whole performance of it all having to be a different person as
soon as COVID happened and we started working from home I started I got my
my both of my nose nose I got two nose rings I got my nose ears twice I
started trying to lean more into being myself I got a little started wearing
those like circle glasses more like quirky my quirky circle glasses more
regularly and I started feeling like wow like I actually I like this this
sort of freedom is a little taste of freedom being able to be myself being able
to to come to come to work because I'm sitting in my office in a way that
did not feel like I had to be a wearing something from Antelope loft there was
a pretty there's a quote that sticks with me and it's I mean I shouldn't say
necessarily a quote but there there was an instance that really sticks with me
and there was a friend of mine she's a very close friend of mine and she said
something to me a few years ago I was like just in my little Antelope loft
walking around the office and she just looked at me she's like why are you
dressed like that it's very like a very like direct why are you dressed like
yeah and and I said got a dress for the job you want right that's the
free yeah just the job you want instance she looked at me she's like is that
the job you want oh when I said oh shock fired haha what is this the job I want
a job that requires me to be an Antelope in my little mules or wrecking heels
and is that what I want that it's why believed I was supposed to want I was
supposed to want the corporate ladder I was supposed to want the climb I was
supposed to want the the corner office with the kid kneels and and the and the
blazer and the daughter what I did once was my my my crop tops and baggy
pants in my nose ring and my my my circle glasses and my long dress that's what
I that's the job I wanted the job that lets me look like that and she she
she doesn't to her that was just like a flippant little little commissary being
smart that's my friend you know the you know that friend you had that you always
nicked a little smart comments to that's just you to her that was just a little
funny smart comment she moved on is for me it basically it rewired the way I
thought about things and that was like some like mean 2018 tonight something
like that and that just rewired the way I thought about things and then once I
no longer had to dress for that job and I could dress for the job I wanted
which is around 2020 we started working for home I just started moving more
into the Nicole I actually am the Nicole I always wanted to be but could not
because I thought that I had to act a certain way and want a certain thing
because that is what is so ingrained within us and taught to us and then when
the opportunity arose at the top of last year for me to truly be the Nicole I
want to be and to jump into the world that I actually want to be in I took it and
I think I might have mentioned I really had no plan I did not have like a back
up job I was not saving for a long time and I had a mortgage I'm in a house I
have a mortgage as I had not been saving for this particular moment it was it
was just do or die and it calls back to how a lot of people will tell you don't
wait until you're ready you have to you have to start before you're ready you'll
never be ready and sometimes you have to start before you're ready and what
that's what I did and I actually wrote about this for pop sugar about the
toxicity of corporate America for black women and how I started before I was
ready and I just took that leap I got ready on the way I have the women of
faith I had a very strong faith that God would catch me and I had all didn't
even realize as people say the I don't know people say this I just give people
naturally I don't know people say this you need people don't say this but where I
was all the things that I had done in my life all the people that I had met
all the things that I hadn't learned was preparing me for that moment and I
didn't know all the journalistic skills all the skills I learned about how to
put together a video package all the people that I had met along the way
every all the ways in which I learned to present on camera the way that I
speak is because of the journalistic skills that I have all of the ways in
which I I think about storytelling and what's a good story and all of that
all these things that I had learned along the way I didn't realize we're
going to come so much in handy now as I just took this leap and although as I
mentioned all the people that I met as well who had come out of nowhere I hadn't
spoken to them in years and now they're like hey by the way I see you're doing
your thing girl and I just want to let you know this is opportunity there's
that opportunity I in starting before I was ready I didn't even realize how
ready I actually was until I just did it because I was looking for a certain
type of ready you never gonna have that certain type of perfect ready I was I
was ready I was prepared I just didn't realize it until I had nothing to do
what just take that leap and figure it out and here I am two years later my
house is still my home I'm still paying my bill and just got back to the
Dominican Republic and I'm headed to Brazil just did a partnership with
Wyndam and here I am amazing this is so cool there's so many things I want to
highlight here because one of the things I've heard before and I love this
saying is that ready isn't a feeling it's an action you took that action and
then you became ready through that action and I they in entrepreneurship year
people talk about Cortez and and burning the ships so many times it's like
sometimes you the only way that you're gonna take that make that move is when
you burn the boats and you say listen there there's no escape now I left I it
is synchro swim survivor die and the thing is you had the skills you were you
might not have known exactly how you're gonna make it happen but you were
confident in the fact that you could make it happen my wife just told me last
night she sent me a meme she said of course it said of course I'm confident I've
seen myself make something out of nothing my whole life why would this be any
different and you brought that expertise and you delivered value and that's
it's powerful too and it sounds like tell me if I'm encapsulating this
correctly it sounds like it wasn't so much that you had a drive to be an
entrepreneur as much as you had a drive for freedom and entrepreneurship was the
path yeah that's it that's 100% it I had a desire to be 100% authentically
myself that's that was the goal that is the goal anything I have like I feel
like my my body just or my energy just repelled anything that wants me to
change who I am unless it's something that I feel like is a positive change for
myself I am currently on this in on this journey of just becoming a fully
self-actualized person in a way that I don't think I had ever been able to be
before and so everything I'm doing is just it's a search for freedom it's
it's me trying to move toward being being authentic to who I am authentic to
myself and and as people say life-maxing like I'm learning salsa now I'm going
like I'm outside doing more and more things I'm trying to learn a little
Portuguese and in time for the black travel summit in Brazil and and I'm
trying to just pick up more and more new things and learn new things just
become the best version of myself that I think I can be and I don't think that
that was possible for me in corporate America and it's it's interesting how you
mentioned you know when you burn the boats you don't have a choice but to to
figure things out right I'm like I have talked so much to this point about
corporate America I don't have no choice but this has to work
I've got to work at this point there's like you Google my name and you know
I'm a little too late yeah this has worked not that I have a desire to to go back
into that world because I just the freedom that I feel and there's how very
me I feel I don't think there is something that would make me want to trade
that to go back to you know people telling you what to do and then people not
asking for fame but then also not what I'm here you're opinion and going back
to the facade and the performance and all of that it just does not appeal to me
in any way and so I I and one hand on one hand is like there is no going back
when the other hand is like I don't I don't want to I want to continue yeah and
this not to say that this path is easy it is not easy at all this is a very
saturated creator field my constant we have to be reinvented
my self and constantly trying to figure out new and in cool ways to tell stories I'm constantly battling
algorithms. Oh my gosh, Instagram algorithm is like really difficult right now to manage
and we're constantly trying to one up that. But I jokingly said on threads the other day, I was like
I was like when the algorithm changes I'm a capricorn. All I'm like is like all right challenge
accepted. Like, that's ain't nothing to it but to do it challenge accepted. And so it's it's not
easy. And I would be lying to you if I said that there weren't days weeks where I am anxiety
written. I am floating through life in the midst of an anxiety attack completely dissociated but
making videos, making content, talking to people as if I am fully here and I'm not present at all.
There I would be lying to you if I said I didn't have my moments of worry or stress or whatever
it is. The thing that keeps me grounded is my my faith and my my belief that that I'm God's
gonna continue to see me through this. I don't believe that God would bring me this far to let me
fall now. And that's what continues to help me move forward in everything that I do. And then
also just looking at the trajectory of my life. If you would look at my LinkedIn or if I were to
just run down my resume and everything in my life, I'm like there's never been a point in my life
where God was not seeing me through. If you were to look at everything you'd be like dang girl,
you you got it. You were you don't know all the times. And I was like my job this job is ending
the head. They eliminated my role. I'm not to get laid off. I need another job. What am I going to
do? Bam. Two days after the role is eliminated starting a new job. Like there are so many times in my
life where like that just came through. And when things were looking bad like when I first graduated
for college, I was out of work. My my my mom who at you know the time she really had a lot of money
was trying to like cover my rent. I had like been out of work for like two months. Someone reaches
out to me on LinkedIn. Bam starting a new job at ABC News now right out of college. That's so great.
I it's every everything in my life has always been blessed divinely to lead me in the right
direction. I just continue to trust that that is the direction that my if if if my past is any
indication of my future that I will continue to move and that forward progression and I will
continue to succeed. But like I said, some days it's it's easier than others to keep this keep
the smile and you know keep the faith and believe. But God said faith the size of the mustard seed.
Sometimes that's all I have to give and and and it is working for me so far. Sorry to print on you,
but you know I gotta I gotta keep real. This is me. This is that that's the island showing. That's
what that is that island of bringing you because your your family's from where because that's another
connection we have to. Yeah, so my family's from Trinidad. Yes, that's right. That's right because
my dad's from Dominica, mom's from Guyana and it's it's always cool when you see somebody with
that that the same background because then for me what I recognize is that it some things start to
make sense. I'm like, I see it now. Yes, it's a it because we have the the work ethic, the the
confidence is like I will figure this out. Right. And I think there's also the authenticity too.
Just the willingness to be yourself. But then also I'd be interested in exploring this with you too
because one thing that I had to, you know, my parents love me very much. I appreciate the way
that it raised me, et cetera, et cetera. Disclaimer done. But also it's like work really hard,
get a good education, get a job, keep it forever. And when it came to you being your authentic self
and moving towards freedom and building your own thing, was there any resistance from your family
or criticism that you had to work through? No, I mean, honestly, no, I'm I'm blessed in that
situation in which my mom has always been very supportive of me. My sister is only one who'll
be like, as long as you make it money. I mean, that's not happening. It gets you so back in a
point. That's why this is the only person who would who would be like, no, it's time to go
the lack of corporate it up at any point. She felt like it wasn't doing what she thinks it needs
to be doing. But now my mother thankfully has been super supportive of me this entire entire
journey. And she's very she's she's she's one of my biggest like fans like of my content. She
just loves sharing it. She loves telling people about about my daughter, you know, she's a travel
influence there. Let me show you. Let me show you the hairdresser. You should follow her on Instagram
and she'll tell us who like the people at her job. So she's been really supportive of because
and I think part of it is because of she knows who I am as a person and that I'm going to make this
happen. I'm going to I will have sleepless nights. If an algorithm changes and I'm realizing my
videos aren't doing well, I'm going to be up figuring out what I can do. I'm always going to
pivot. I'm going to figure something out. And if I was one of those people who, you know, they have
a new career every every two months of trying to something new every, you know, whatever they don't
stick to anything like that, she would probably have a different feeling. But as she seen me and
watched me grow all my life, she knows that when I put my mind on something, I'm going to achieve
that something. Yeah. Oh, it's powerful. That is powerful. Okay. Well, what's next? What's the big
plan for 2026 and beyond? Well, so what's immediately next is the Black Travel Summit for me in
Brazil, because I am a finalist in the Black Travel Film Festival. Yes, for social video,
that's about a video that I did about the origins of Brighet Own and how it started as a
Brigadier Spanjol in Panama. And then 2026 at the top of the year, I do have my first group trip,
Gucafé Hanna. I'm taking 13 people with me and I, if very people out there who'd like to sponsor
some goody bags, if you have any products or anything like that, that you would like to have
promoted on my channel and would like to have me share with some of my guests or all of my guests,
depending on how much you're willing to share. Then I'm definitely open to that. And then yeah,
now all my travel, I kind of plan very last minute. So I'm like one to month, like I just,
I'm going to Brazil next month, just booked my flight last night. So that's still TBD. But my hope
is to continue to grow my platform, continue to grow with the different brands that I am working
with. And then figure out exactly where I want to take everything that I've learned and the platform
that I have into the next phase. I'm going to be growing my newsletter as well and taking that
into the next phase. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. So wait, you're doing, like you're taking
other humans with you to Cartagena, like that's a thing you do now. Yes, I'm hosting the group trip.
That's so cool. Okay. So, you know, you need to get an idea of what this travel schedule is like,
that's, that's a brilliant idea. Very, very cool. Yes, so I'm doing hosting a group trip powered by
Tor Hero, which is a company that works with different creators to host trips. So they'll facilitate
everything. I was able to make sure that this trip was as is the kind of theme of the last
10 minutes here authentic to myself, my experience, what I enjoyed doing. So I tell people, I'm not
the type of creator that, and I'm done feeling ashamed about this. I'm not the type of creator who
enjoys like art galleries. I'm not. I don't enjoy that. I don't enjoy walking towards. I don't
enjoy art galleries. I'm not really a foodie. Like, I'm not going to pretend. I say that all the time.
I'm just like, not, I don't enjoy that. I find it so boring. Like barbecue sauce on some
cardboard, I would eat that. So I can't even be qualified as a foodie. And I'm done throwing a
shame about that. But yeah, so I was like, none of that. I don't care for any of that. I want it
to be authentic to the things that when I first went to Papahena, what I enjoyed, what I liked,
the things that I did, and did not include art galleries and walking tours. So I made sure that
they put in all the different different activities that I did, like going to, like having an island
beach day going to the to the to the volcano and doing a mud bath and a few other different things.
There is a dance class in there. And usually I'm not super into dance classes. But I'm like,
this is, this is fine. I am learning the salsa. So maybe something, there'll be some overlap.
Maybe I'll learn. I don't know something. I'll click. But yes. So I'm really excited about that.
My group trip sold out in like two weeks. That goes to my, that's just shout out to my ability to
really connect with my community and people that actually really want to hang out with me. And
then have this experience with me. It was really awesome to see the amount of people who just
were like, I went in, I went in, I would like to carve it. So also last, last, the last point too.
Because one of the things I do a lot and I love doing is public speaking. And you seem to have
set of skills and experiences that would be perfect for keynote speaking trainings,
things like that. Is that something you do too? Yes, actually. So I am really excited to continue
to have more public speaking engagement. So I spoke at the Women in Travel Summit this year.
I also spoke at the social media conference that's hosted by Reagan Communications and PR Daily
at Walt Disney World. So I spoke at that. And I also MC that last year. So it was great to come back
and be able to speak, this year I'll also be speaking at the black
and fly summit, which is a nonprofit and I'll be speaking about travel entrepreneurship
and then leading a breakout session there. And I'm just looking forward to continued speaking
engagements in 2026. So we'll see what else is in store. Amazing Nicole, this has been so much
fun. Thank you for coming on the show. And before you go, let the listeners know how they can connect
with you and learn more. Yes, all right. Well, thank you so much for having me. And you can find me
on all social media platforms or at least the big ones. At NCOL, Philip, that's two L's,
no S, again, NCOL, Philip. And you can find me on YouTube, breads, Facebook, Instagram,
and TikTok. And I also have a Patreon as well where I share monthly itineraries that are tailored
to things that I would do. So if you also aren't interested in walking tours and galleries and
like food tours or whatever, then my tineraries will be great for you. So I sell them on my Patreon.
They're free to my top share members, which is about $12 or so a month, or you can just purchase them
as well.
PodcastTranscript AI