How to Take Back Your Own Mind (ft. Tim Urban)

Hey everybody, today I am excited to have an old friend of mine, Tim Urban, on the show. He's a brilliant mind behind the popular blog Wait But Why, where he breaks down complex topics in a thoughtful and extremely entertaining way. In 2019, Tim embarked on an ambitious project called The Story of Us. The goal of the project was to explain why it seemed like everybody was losing their minds, despite the fact that technology was amazing and everything seemed to be going great. This eventually evolved into his first book, What's Our Problem?, a self-help book for societies, and it was released in 2023. Now, the book digs into the psychology behind tribalism and in-group, out-group hatred. Tim painstakingly explains these mechanisms using real-world, present-day examples from both ends of the political spectrum. Now, as you can imagine, he got cancelled by everybody for it. Now, Tim's writing style, it has depth, wit, and accessibility, and it's earned him praise from world leaders, CEOs of some of the largest companies in the world, and millions of everyday readers alike. His work is at the intersection of psychology, politics, science, and technology, always with an eye toward making the complex feel more understandable. Today, we talk about the psychological roots of tribalism, what it feels like to start hating an out-group without realizing it, and how you can hopefully stop. We look at how our minds can become locked inside of idea prisons, and what the simple way out of those idea prisons is. We disagree briefly on how AI might make our mental health problems better or worse, what Tim has learned as a new parent, and we get a sneak peek of his upcoming book on the history of the universe. That's right, it's only a book on the history of the universe. So, sit back, enjoy, draw some stick figures, and try not to hate the out-group so much. This is Tim Urban. Tim, it's so good to have you here, dude. Yeah, it's fun to hang in this weird environment here. It's been a long time. We've known each other a long time. One of the things in my personal life I've started doing, which has been great, one of my favorite things to ask people now is, over the last five years, what are the biggest things you've changed your mind about? And I've noticed that, like, if I meet somebody new, and they can't really, answer that question, or they seem to, like, be taken aback by it, to me, that's kind of like a signal that they're not, they're probably, like, tribally minded, you know, whatever their tribe is. The other thing I, especially this last election cycle, because I have both Republicans and Democrats in my family, and things get heated. I just started asking people, I'm like, what are three things you disagree with your own party about? And again, if they can't really come up with anything, then I just, I know not to listen to them. Well, what you know is that they are in a little idea prison. Yeah. And even just calling yourself a Democrat or a Republican. Yeah. Or I think that is. Like, why would you do that? What I want to tell people is, you're, you're, you're, like, cooler than this. You're better than this. Like, you're going to allow what I think, I want people to think of the Democrats and Republicans as, like, Coke and Pepsi or Verizon and, you know, Amazon. Like, you're going to let some, like, big lane corporation basically hijack your identity and, like, say, we own, we own it now. So, once you're a Democrat, when the Democrats start doing something that deep down, you know, your principles would disagree with, you have to violate your own principles or violate this identity you've given yourself. So, you're in kind of like a noun prison, you know, you put yourself in this, this idea prison, and that's when you're in a prison, you can't go anywhere, right? Where do you disagree with your party? Well, I'm in the prison, so no. How have you changed your mind? Well, I'm stuck. I've been just sitting in this jail cell, so I haven't changed my mind. I haven't gone anywhere. Well, you, you're also choosing how to delude yourself. It reminds me of sports teams. You know, it's like when you watch your favorite sports team and your team obviously commits a foul or a penalty, like, you scream at the ref, like, the ref's the problem, right? But, but, like, if you're watching a team you don't care about, you're like, oh, yeah, obviously that's a foul or a penalty. And I feel like a lot of Americans, especially, identify with a political party the way they identify with a sports team. And they, and they blame the refs instead of their own team when a foul's committed more often than not. And you'll notice that they, they have a completely different reaction to the same foul when it's one party versus the other. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's so obvious. It rank hypocrisy. And again, with sports, you're supposed to be a hypocrite. It's okay. Sports is fun. Happens all the time. Yeah. We all like sports tribalism. Great. And you cheer, you put your arms up, like, you just want a tribal battle when your thing wins. And you go like this to protect your head when your team loses. I mean, it's great. It's, it's play, it's play tribalism. Politics is shitty because it matters. And, you know, it affects real things. Yeah. And, and, and the hypocrisy, it's like, that's another thing you can do is just, just test your, just, just, it's a simple litmus test to test your hypocrisy, which is what, how would I feel if the other team were doing this? Yeah. Whether it's something good or bad, how would I feel if this were the other team? And if it was like, well, and your head kind of explodes, you have a, you're not thinking straight. Yeah. Speaking of which, what have you changed your mind about in the last, say, three to five years? What are some of the biggest things that you've changed your mind about? There are some like very factual things like nuclear energy. I'm like, I thought it was bad. Now I think it's extremely good. But in like a more philosophical way, five years ago, maybe more like eight, but I was in the process five years ago of, I was a, I'm a Democrat. And also I'm an atheist. And, you know, right wing religious people are stupid and bad, right? That, that was maybe not five years ago. There was a little longer ago, but 2012, 2015, I was, I was in that zone. I grew up in that zone and I was just, and I have like, I look at that person right now. I'm like, oh God, you are a lost, like you are, you are a little boy with that attitude. Like, so a few things is I was in the zone where I saw blue, good, red, bad. And that's your prior, that's at the very base. Now maybe blue does something bad, but it's for a higher thing or because, or then you, everyone does whatever, but, and red, you know, does something good, but they have some bad moment. If that's in the base, every single thing can, can always fit into that. You know, you can, so coming out of that, just like releasing, again, realizing this prison has a, I have the key. Oh my God. You know, and then you come out and it's not that I'm now like, well, do blue, bad, red, good. It's that I just, once I came out of that, I realized how much of a prison I was in. So things like, I also was like, um, you know, religion bad. And I'm just like, first of all, that is so arrogant to have this, this religion is this thing that's been going on, you know, where I was thinking mostly in Christianity, in this case, 2000 years of like trial and error. And like, it's maybe there for both good and bad reasons. Maybe there is something really important about this for our species. And I think now I've come to think there's a lot of wisdom in religion and it's also a very, it can be, it's, we're all, we're a religious species. And so when we don't have a religion that's tested for 2000 years of refinements, we end up with a new religion, maybe a political religion that's just worse. So a lot of these things that that guy was so sure about, I now I'm just much more kind of like open about, like, um, in, as far as atheism itself, regardless, I still, I'm not, I'm not a Christian or a Muslim or a religious Jew. I'm not, I don't believe in those books, but I also had stopped being a staunch atheist in that, um, what I would have said as a staunch atheist is there's no creator. There's, there's, there's, this is, you know, everything is, you know, how we think, you know, spontaneous generation of life on this planet. And then it evolved through evolution to today. Now I believe in evolution. I, I believe in this, the things we've proven with science, but how about all the things we haven't proven with science? We don't know how life started. It could have been planted here by another species, an alien species. It could, we could be in a big computer simulation and just starting to have those things again, it humbles you. And it makes you realize like that atheist was so sure about a bunch of things that he, he was sure in a way that he was criticized a religious person for being sure that, you know, Adam and Eve existed and that the flood is why the grand Canyon has seashell fossils on it. The, it, but the atheist, Tim was just as sure about that. There's none, not nothing, you know? And so now I would call myself like very firmly agnostic. So a lot of these, the theme in a lot of these is I'm less sure than I was and I'm much less likely to just like dismiss. I'm like, likewise now coming out of not being associated, I don't identify with the left at all anymore, but I also don't want to identify with the right because I feel like, you know, I don't want to identify with the right So, um, I, I also likewise, cause some people, I think if you're not fully, you come out of the prison, but you're still in that mindset, you'll go fling to the other side. And now suddenly you're a full red pill. You know, the left is the problem. I don't, I don't think that either. I think there's probably a lot of wisdom and progressivism and there's a lot of wisdom and conservatism and both of these parties suck. And a lot, there's a hypocrisy on both sides, but underneath that, there's actually very important principles that need to butt against each other. So I, um, you know, a staunch, uh, partisan would call me like an insufferable, you know, enlightened centrist. Um, but I would say both sides, what they used to call them, both sides, both sides is And I think I think it's misinterpreting because a centrist or both sides is someone who says that like these the parties are equally right about each issue, you know, there's somewhere in the middle. That's not what I think. I think maybe the right is way more right about certain things left is way more right about other things. It's that I'm on the side of the people who don't identify with any party who said that each of these issues is like a complex puzzle that needs like an endless debate and testing and experimentation and balancing many different values of compromise that doesn't say anything about where I am on left or right on any issue. It's not a horizontal distinction. It's what I would say is like a vertical distinction. And that's mistaken bipartisan people who say you're either left or right as both sides of them. As centrism, because they only seeing this horizontal access. If you're not left or right, you must be this annoying person in this who wants to say they're in the center. I don't that's not misinterpreting when I when I am. Yes, we are the tribe of no tribe. I try to be and by the way, you can get sucked into you can get sucked into the no tribe tribe becoming quite tribal. You know, you have to constantly watch it. But yeah, I also looked I always you know, I always respect someone who I see. Disagree with their own in group. And when I say their own in group, I don't mean someone who like used to be on the left and they were criticizing the left now is their is their thing. Because the left is now their out group. I'm talking about the people who are like totally agreeing with them about what they're saying this week and then totally disagreeing with those people. That's like that shows someone I'm like, this person is truly rogue. They're not like afraid. They're not trying to appease. You know, they're not in any prison. I mean, it's hard to find. I'm not sure I've fully gotten there. It's like hard to the people who really are, you know, love what's our problem. Like, it's hard to fully, you know, disagree with them on something. You wrote this book kind of at the fever pitch of just political misery in the country. I don't know about you, but like I personally feel like this last election cycle seemed less, I don't know, apocalyptic than previous ones. Like I it could just be me, but I feel like we're we've like we peaked maybe three or four years ago and we're like on the downhill side. Do you agree with that? And if so, do you want to take? Credit for it? If I if I could take credit for that, I would be like demanding a Nobel Nobel Prize. But if so, like, why do you think that's happened? I'm curious. So if you look at like history, not one of the things I think one of the things that helps a lot understanding the current moment is just looking at history because you start to see patterns and you're like, oh, we're doing that thing from the 50s. We're doing that now. Like the Red Scare in the early 50s has a lot in common with what happened in the last five years. It was different, you know. Mad Lib had different things in the blanks. But the idea was kind of a tribal wave sweeps over the country. And when it happens, it's like what you'll see is when you're not in it, it almost you forget how scary it can be in a moment when it becomes really tribal. You suddenly are like, you know, it's hard to even have a you're, you know, with three, four friends at dinner and you're suddenly like, where are you? Like, are we are you one of them? Or like, are you going to judge me? Or like, are we allowed to still? And even small little things, everyone starts to get kind of scared and then forget like a classroom. You know, one person in that moment can start really being like a bully that's, you know, that that's that's emphasizing the current tribal craze. And everyone else in the classroom would be really scared and start to, like, jump on that bandwagon. And it's a reminder that we can be a very scary species. You know, you hear about the most extreme example always is everything is, you know, Nazis, Holocaust. And you hear about, you know, these people in Poland. Who would turn in their Jewish neighbors who they know for 30 years and they've been friends and they would quietly turn them into the, you know, and these awful stories. And you start to, but I understand why, you know, in this moment when things are really, when that fear kicks in. Basically, when tribalism is in the air in a really intense way and the stakes feel really high, it's like pheromones, wolf pheromones. And the primitive mind wakes up and gets into a crazy zone. It completely takes over your brain and you get into this zone where it's like you can't suddenly you can't trust anyone. And it's like, you know, so the less extreme example is like the early 50s with, you know, the Red Scare. And you have, you know, anyone who even gets, you know, you can, you know, it's like a witch hunt. Actual Salem witches in the same thing. It's like once you know that someone being accused of being a witch might actually lead to their execution, everyone gets really scared. And now, you know, someone might, your friend. You think your friend might accuse you so that they don't get accused of being a witch. And it becomes a very, and that's how these crazy things kept. The Salem witch trials wasn't like, it wasn't like that was just the times. It was a crazy thing that happened and then stopped. The Red Scare in the 50s was a crazy thing that happened and then it stopped and then sanity returned. And I think that the 2020, you know, wokeness thing was a crazy thing that happened. And I think at some point, hopefully. It will be something totally in the past. And I think it's, again, to bring back your, you become more aware of your own dicking around. You can become more aware of your own, you know, echo chambers. Well, you also, I think the society itself can kind of like, if it has been too long since that happened, the society can get caught off guard. And I think that once it now, I think now society starts to be more self-aware about that was crazy. And now when you see signs of it now, you're less likely to fall into it and more likely to be like, no, we're, we don't do that anymore. We're done with that. And you see the corporations, you know, quietly reversing policies that were insane. Um, so I feel like we are on the other side of the specific things that happen. We're, we're, you know, there's still good. Look, there's still a huge fight that's going to be, uh, put up within the institutions. Um, policies that were changed, admin people that were turned over. I mean, that has, that takes a while that gets into the vital organs of a lot of institutions that's going to be a long, painful process to try to return to kind of the basic values that those institutions used to have. But what worries me is that, um, you know, why did this happen right now? In the fifties, it happened because, you know, it was on the heels of war, which is kind of a tribal time. And there was a genuine fear of the, of communism, right? It was like, this could, this was an existential threat. And when I'm like, why did this happen now? And I feel like it's very tied to social media and this new force that's in there in the world that, you know, has a huge impact scares, you know, the media is scared of social media, companies are scared of social media, and you empower a lot of the most tribally crazed people who want attention, want to do damage, want to sensationalize things, want to punish people. Those people have a lot more power right now than they did 15 years ago. Like they, they actually, you know, one of those people can get a big following and suddenly, you know. Scare a lot of institutions into getting on their bad side. Uh, so my, my worry is that like, you know, that the root causes might still be there and that maybe it's not wokeness, um, that, that is the thing. Um, maybe it's a, another thing comes along. Um, you know, maybe it's right wing, hardcore right wing, you know, white supremacy, which is of course the thing that I spent. I spent years saying this is, uh, overblown by, by woke people. Now I'm like, well, this thing, you know, has now been trained to actually be more of a real white identity by this thing. And it could write you, who knows? I don't, I'm not saying that's what will happen. I'm saying, I just think that the, we might be still in a vulnerable situation in our society. Um, yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's hard to, it's also hard to separate, uh, just like how unique. The COVID era was, and like all of the second and third order effects that, you know, you can't really, it's hard to know what is an actual part of cultural evolution and what is this kind of this freakish happenstance thing. You know, I, I've had a bit of a pet theory. I'm sure I'm not the first person or the only person who's, who has thought of this, but like when you look at the history of media, anytime there's like a major technological revolution. In, in media itself and like how information is disseminated across society, you generally see like massive political upheaval immediately after. So like when the printing press is invented, you get the reformation a few decades later, and that creates a hundred years of war across Europe and results in a lot of, you know, the enlightenment and all sorts of other things. When TV and radio come along, you get a lot of the fascism. And part of me thinks that, you know, with the internet and social media, it's probably inevitable that like there's this reconfiguring of social identity that has to happen along these like new railways of information. And, and I also think like it probably just takes a generation or two to develop the antibodies, you know, it's like everything. And but it like it takes us years of falling for it and then realizing that you can't fall for it and seeing the repercussions happen over and over again. You know, it's kind of like the first TV marketing and the first the first radio propaganda in the early 20th century was like wildly successful, like massively successful. There's all these stories of like the Orson Welles alien invasion radio story and like thousands of people are like running out of their houses thinking that it's real. You know, it's it's laughable from our point of view today because we're just so jaded by an entire lifetime of listening to bullshit on the radio and on TV. I think it's like when a medium's new, we haven't like developed that jadedness yet. And because we're not jaded enough, we're more susceptible. Like it's easier for, I guess, tribal sinister and tribal narratives to reach people and seduce them because they haven't developed that the antibodies to it yet. Yeah, it's like it's like, you know, and and certain companies can jump in and get really, really, really rich during the. You know, inoculated phase. Yeah, you got the non that the pre inoculated phase like I just think about also like think about cigarette companies. They made a killing in a window when they when they really could. Yeah. And then awareness spread laws changed. We built kind of antibodies to protect the protect ourselves around for that from that thing. And now they make way less of a killing, at least in the US. Yeah, I mean, it's one of the things it's funny. My wife and I, we went back and started watching Mad Men. And one of the things I didn't fucking still amazing show, by the way, one of the things that I didn't put together the first time I saw it, I saw it for the first time, maybe 12, 15 years ago. Watching it now as somebody who's like a lot more well informed about advertising and US history and business cycles and stuff. It's. There's like this realization that Mad Men takes place in the 50s and 60s when television is new. And like people have literally never seen it. Like television commercial before. And so you could literally just put anything on the screen and people would want to buy it. And. So it's like no wonder Don Draper was making a fucking killing sitting around drinking whiskey all day. Like it's there's just this low hanging fruit that comes with a new medium. And it comes from with advertising. It comes with building a business or marketing. It comes with people like you and I building audiences. And then it. It also comes with with like political movements. Right. Like it's people are most susceptible when there's some like new fangled. Technology that that nobody's like everybody's wide eyed and has no idea what to expect. It's like it's it almost reminds me of just like an evolution when you have like, I don't know, some event, some weather change, you know, to the climate like this predator dies off. And now. There's this power vacuum and this other predator comes in. This this species thrives. It gets too big and all these things happen. And then it eventually settles into a new like interlocked into the equilibrium. It's hard to change. Yeah. And so that happens rarely in in in evolutionary history. But here it's like a new thing drops into society. There's a you know, another example is the iron age. You know, iron came around and suddenly people who were kind of in the outskirts of society could make weapons in a way they couldn't before. And they the the the cities lost their advantage in that. And it just it changed all kinds of, you know, geopolitical things back then. So you have social media drops in and in the Internet. And it's almost society takes a while to even figure out that where the new opportunities are, where the power vacuum suddenly are, who suddenly has way more power than they ever did before. And who has less power? And so. Like. I think that in a world like that, you see a lot of things where like media. The media model of trying to be neutral and be professional doesn't work so well in this new environment. And so somebody like Fox News catches on to that quicker than others gets huge. And then all these other things copy. And before you know it, New York Times is acting like Fox News. Right. They're all acting like like Fox News. Right. And so it's like the there's like a new business is an environmental shift. And now in the new environment. Is going to reward different things and and empower different things. And and you see all everyone reacts to it. You know, it's like everyone reacts to it to try to stay successful, to stay afloat, to survive. And then you see people and their behavior changing because new behavior is rewarded. Yeah. And there's a new thing, which is followers on social media. And that becomes this new shiny thing. No, it's not just money. That's one thing. There's a new way to get status with this number and its attention and status. So suddenly all these primitive minds become set for this thing. And then so how do you know? And then the algorithms are sitting there and they're trying to maximize attention in this new thing. And so the algorithms now favor a certain, you know, a certain way to get, you know, certain behavior gets more followers. And you can just see this whole new environment configured. The people who get there first get really rich. You know, when you know if you can notice the changes in the environment, you can capitalize on attention, you know, wealth, whatever. And then it kind of. It kind of starts to crystallize into a new thing. And then I think like you're talking about, I think then there starts to be a reflection on, wait, this is hurting people. Wait, maybe 13 year old girls on Instagram isn't good. Yeah. You have something like John Hite's book that just came out, you know, the anxious, anxious generation you have and then you start to start to see, you know, like surgeon, you know, his book is like, you know, going to lead to hopefully like a surgeon general's warning about cigarettes type thing where you start to have, you know, rules and parents don't allow this anymore. And you can look back. And say, I can't believe that kids were allowed on Instagram at some point. It's going to sound like kids and child labor or child prostitutes. There's crazy things from the past you hear about. And it's going to be like, wow. And so the antibodies then form and we develop a healthier way to we start to figure out what the harm is in these in this thing. We tweak things to make it healthy. Now, what's scary. Is that if this happens once a century, it's like, OK, there's a rough 20 years and then we figure it out and then we kind of. Develop a healthier thing with this. And there's laws and there's norms that, you know, understanding that comes around. What's scary is how is the rate of change just speeds up. Right. Because AI is probably going to do this again. AI and who knows, you start having the VR starts getting better and better. And before you know it, everyone has one of these things like a visor glasses that we're wearing. AI is, you know, I feel like chat GPT and these things right now is like is like the really old Internet where it's like this new thing. Yeah, and it's like the or like the really, really beginning Twitter when you just like you post there's no retweet button, there's no like button, it's just kind of like, you know, our old old Facebook feels like it's very early and it's like they haven't even figured out how to make it addictive yet that hasn't even started yet, you know, and I'm like, that's going to be a whole cycle and there's going to be a whole new set of some people, some people who can see now where it's going or to get really rich and get it, you know, really powerful and then others will win and then everyone will then then the. Mainstream will really, really, you know, conform to this new thing and then we'll start to figure out what, oh, wait, this is bad. But at that point, AI is getting smarter and smarter really quickly. It's like you don't have time to do the antibodies phase and new changes are happening. It's a little scary. It gets very chaotic. Yeah. Yeah, I have no idea where any of this is heading. It is the AI thing is super interesting, too, because I feel like it, you know, one of the issues, especially in the social media era, but also kind of. Kind of going back into the more conventional media era as well as like is the information fragmentation, as you put it, echo chambers, right? Like there's just some certain topics or certain sets of data are like just not included in various narratives for political reasons. And in the social media era, people actually just get caught in these little bubbles of hearing the same three or four things over and over again, because that's what the algorithm feeds them. I feel like AI, you know. The potential of AI is that it commoditizes all information universally, like everything is just always there for everybody and all context and relevance can be provided, you know, in each situation. So there's in a way it can like I feel like it could solve a lot of the informational side of things. But then it makes me wonder, I'm like. If you if everybody just has all the same information all the time. It might actually make us it might actually drive us like more in the tribalism, because then that's really the only thing we're going to have left is. Like you can't you can't argue over the facts anymore because the AI has figured that out. So we're just going to argue over our subjective moral principles. Which are. You know, essentially non resolvable. Yeah. and, and we'll just be like more entrenched than ever before. It's a little, it's a little like, you know, when I, you know, against 22 year old Tim would have been like my, if I had a genie, I would say all religion is gone. And now I would go to that guy and be like, no, don't be careful what you wish for, right? Be careful what you wish for, because we were a religious species and we're going to find other religions that you might realize are not tested and new and really, really, really bad and lead, you know, the kind of religion that can lead to hundreds of millions of people being murdered. And it's the same thing here where it's like, you're saying kind of like, oh, this tribalism sucks. We wish if only we could just all get on the same page and have facts, you know, no more, you know, fighting about facts. And it's like, be careful what you wish for, because we're a tribal species and we'll find tribalism elsewhere. And like, where's that? It's almost like you're not going to eradicate tribalism. How can we, you know, of course, the classic example is what we would love is an alien attack. And then we're all tribal in the best possible way, which is earthlings, you know, humans. I love you because you're another human. Okay. It's not, it's still a childish tribalism, but it's, it's, it's productive and it's nice and for everyone. But then you, of course, you have an alien attack, which is its own shitty thing. But we're not going to have that probably. And, and so the question is, you know, yes, does it turn into, well, first of all, the question is, if, is it better if we're arguing about moral principles and like trying to find the edges of what's, is that worse or better than arguing about facts? Like maybe it's, maybe it leads to more like. Like hardcore, like political violence in a way, but maybe also it's more productive because we're actually arguing about things that need arguments to happen versus things that are just, we shouldn't even be arguing about this if we were just not being deceived in two different directions. Yeah. You know, I've just been like, this has kind of been my, where my brain has been a lot lately is just thinking about if, if information becomes universal and come out of it, then monetized, like free essentially, like there's, there's most ambiguities removed. Most, uh, misinterpretation is removed. Anything that's knowable is available, like typing a couple sentences and what, what, like what effect does that have on us socially, politically, psychologically? Um, cause I, I feel like when you remove one scarcity, you, you create another scarcity. And I feel like if you remove the informational scarcity, like if we're no longer are debating over, uh, what exactly is the wealth inequality or what exactly is a, um, you know, where these tax cuts stimulative or not, you know, once you remove those debates now, now you're getting purely into the like philosophical foundational equality versus freedom. Uh, collectivism versus individualism. Um, like, and those don't really have resolution, but, but maybe, but maybe, I mean, I feel like that's what politics is supposed to be, right? If you think about like what the Greeks thought about politics, like what were they doing on the Acropolis? Like they weren't, they were probably doing this kind of really core things. And I feel like that is how a society, the best way for a society to grow and evolve. What's nice about democracy is that it has a solution, which is that there's not like a king and we have to all convince the king. It's like the country will be in the mood for more individualism. We'll be sick of looking at all the stats and we'll vote for that. And then it'll go too far a little bit. And then we'll, the country is a certain part of the country will feel like, you know, left out and there'll be a rebellion, uh, and there'll be a vote for more collectivism and, and it will kind of evolve like a shape-shifting thing that meets the needs of the moment. I mean, that, that to me is, it sounds idyllic. I'm sure, of course, it comes along with a lot. There's a lot of other things, but I feel like that's how you actually, what you want is democracy to express the will of the people, to serve the will of the people at the time. And what we'd like is if we're all on the same page about facts and what we're, and then, you know, you have these philosophies butting against each other and then, you know, it, that is actually going to get to the best will of the people possible versus here. If people are on the wrong page about facts, they think they're having a philosophical voting for their philosophies, but they're actually not because they've been missing forms. So they think that, you know, something is 10 times worse than it is and they're going to vote now to fix that when it actually is not that, that's not the problem. So it feels in a way like it's better. And then you have right now, you have actually like the media and a lot of big social media accounts, their job, their game is in misinforming you, like making you feel 100%. You know, my, my, my, my aunt is glued to MSNBC every day and she sends me like, you know, we need to move out of the country stuff like that. They have. That, that, that, that is a company, MSNBC, um, whose business model is making people like her, um, feel as extreme as possible about stuff and believe things are as extreme as possible. So her vote is not going to be accurately like linked, aligned with her actual will because, right. So I, I, yeah. Yeah. The way you describe it. It sounds much nicer than the way it sounds sounded in my head. Um, so maybe you're giving me some hope, but yeah, it is, it is, uh, the, the, the, the informational thing is, is interesting. I don't know. Like I, I feel like when you remove the, the informational games or like the, the, the pursuit of facts and truth. And that for the majority of the population. And it's just kind of like handed to us by AI that kind of, all that leaves is status games for us to play in. And, uh, and I don't know that like concerns me. Yeah. I, I think that tribalism will always creep in nasty base. Tribalism will always find a way to creep in. I think even that goes in waves. Like the country is generally has like a higher amount of it happening for a few years and then it calms down. Um, I also wrote it in my book about. How one of the things in like the fifties is, you know, it seems like a very untribal time politically. Yeah. Um, you know, the parties were very mixed. They didn't, it wasn't like that. It was, but I, but actually try the same quantity of tribalism was there. It was just that it was distributed in like different tiers. So one tier was us versus Soviet union or Hitler before that. Right. Um, and that takes a bunch of energy. A bunch of people's minds are just fixated on that. That's where their head is. Other peoples were like, no, like Republicans versus Democrats. Now they're in the state or in the country and that's where their head was. And the, and some other people were the, there are Democrats, you know, who, the thing they hate the most is the other Democrats who are their other faction who are actually much more, cause it was much more mixed. So the factions themselves hated each other. Yeah. And what you have is the, the, the, the big high level tribalism, the biggest us versus the biggest them, um, is a uniting force below. It chills out the things below cause it like, well, we also were at least we're together or this thing. And then the lower ones, the, the fighting there, um, simmers the national ones. You don't want the national one goes too far. You start to, you know, just the xenophobia goes out of control and you want to, you know, you dehumanize the other part of the world when you hate each other so much. Suddenly, you know, you almost want to, you know, you, you know, it's part of the left felt, you know, um, on more on the side of the Soviets than they did on the, than, than they did with the right or whatever. And I think that all of that kind of the, the, the three tiers being distributed evenly, like, I think it's nice cause it simmers it on. So it keeps it from, and what happened since then is the national threat went away. Yeah. The U S stopped having a serious existential threat outside its borders and the factions went away because within the party, the lowest level, because the party's purified. So all the progressives went over here, all the contributors went over here and then you have the media. And so there's this one thing now, red versus blue, this middle one, it was the only one left in the media and flames that and suddenly it becomes this crazy thing where people stop caring about local politics, all these kind of kooky local politics people, I feel like are all have all had their minds channeled into this national threat. National thing, which they can't, which doesn't even affect their lives nearly as much as the local politics. So it's concentrated into this one tier and that is bad. That's an interesting way to look at it. It's cause yeah, it does seem like there's a kind of a con tribalism is constant. Conflict itself is kind of constant, but it can be distributed in different amounts across different layers as you call it. Um, it makes me think, you know, I lived in Latin America for a while and. My wife's Brazilian. And one of the things that I found really interesting is that there have been almost no wars in South America and it's primarily due to geography and like reading, reading up on some of the history of some of the countries down there, there's been so much internal political conflict, like so many coups, assassinations, revolutions, uh, like mass murders, civil wars in every single country down there. Yet they've, they like have, I don't think they've. Ever fought each other in like over 150 years. And part of me wonders if it's just like when you can't turn that aggression outward, you find somebody inward to face it towards. And, um, and it's, it's, it's just the opposite about the Middle East where, um, whenever Israel, Palestine becomes a huge thing and that comes in waves, it's obviously we're in the middle of a big, big one now. Yeah. Um. All of them. of these arab countries that actually have very little in common you know feel more unified right and if you actually dig into any what's going on any one of those countries most of them have a good reason to really hate their dictator yeah um and this is maybe not a coincidence that you know it's very helpful to that dictator to deflect all of this anger you feel israel and so that's that's something that would bring people up to that top tier yeah of you know the you know kind of muslims versus israel or or the west the west and you know the u.s is another one of course the iraq war i'm sure you've had this all this unity so you it brings all this unity here but it's so much that you know it's like that that instead of you know you should be really angry at your own dictator and uh whatever so i i feel like you see the opposite there of latin america in a way yeah um that's interesting but it is interesting it's like where where is the like brazil organization war right it just doesn't happen i think east asia you have the countries that have this long history of hitting each other middle east obviously oh yeah yeah yeah it's it's crazy i think there was one war between brazil and uruguay in like 1850 or something and then that's it that's like basically it and but meanwhile every single country down there has had multiple revolutions civil wars multiple coups military dictatorships like mass africa africa seems sub-saharan africa seems like a big part of the world and i think that's a big part of the world and i think that's the same yeah there's all kinds of it's a mess within each country but you don't see you know burundi and rwanda going to war yeah totally last thing before we go um you are a new parent i'm curious what what is your biggest your two years end what are what are your biggest parenthood takeaways so far oh well it's like there's a massive pile of cons and a massive massive tower towering pile of pros yeah and what i can say when i look at the two of them is that the pros pile is bigger okay it's a net positive but there's a big pile of cons as well um you i think you're the first person who's ever described their kid as a net positive net positive um um because uh yeah the the um it's it's like you know i i when i first got a dog i was like wow this is such like a source of joy yeah joy is hard to find in life right you know like real like just pure joy just purity of that like i see my puppy runs up to me and it's just this feeling of pure love and joy so this is even this is like there's even more of that here just like there's so much like it's it's there's a real purity to the to the pros like it's just it's just pure love she's also so little and i think that's a really good point i think that's a really good point i think that's a her world is so small she doesn't know about war or death or tribalism or religion or politics she just literally she doesn't know anything she's just a little like pure little little like drop of humanity um and and so it's just then our relationship is so pure the love i feel is so pure the joy the feeling the way she sees me is so like you know idyllic that's not going to last of course and everything like everything yeah she will become a human it will become complicated she will become complicated our relationship but at the moment it's just it's just like a it's like a puppy it's just like such a delight so that's all amazing it's it's definitely made me grow up in certain ways these are all the pros though the cons are legit like travel like i used to go on these writer retreats a couple friends i go for two weeks that's over unless we do them with the whole family you know um i uh i had summer of 14 i went away for 10 weeks two weeks to each of five countries so i could write about them like that was awesome can't do that anymore that's a big loss um you know uh we one of us is up every morning at freaking seven 7 a.m that we're not early morning people like that sucks uh we want to just spontaneously get dinner with a friend we can't we don't have a babysitter like real like you know genuine you know my wife and i went to two new countries every single year that was like our thing yeah it's just you know when they get older maybe we can start talking about it but i don't know with them but like so but we have another one on the way so it's about to be two and a baby so those are genuine real major losses and for my wife just being pregnant some women like it she does not so you know that's like huge toll on her body twice now so the cons are very very real and i'm not and i don't i don't think it's obvious that everyone should have kids no i think that the pros and cons are huge on for everyone probably and i think some people it's not a net positive and they shouldn't do it um i think it's okay once you have a kid you can't be selfish anymore but you can be selfish before you have a kid and say i want to i don't want to dedicate my life to raising a kid i want to be selfish i think that's a totally reasonable decision as well question uh has being a parent changed your evaluation of the importance or the value of some of those things such as traveling to a new country every year or uh traveling with friends for a week or whatever like has it raised your perception of how valuable it is to be a parent and how valuable that is or has it lowered it or has it not changed at all i don't think it's changed very much okay um it's you know i i think that like the things would change maybe that some people say like oh they're like petty fights with their friends or like feeling like they're excluded from like you know getting invited to this wedding or whatever like that stuff just you care less about and that's probably true but the things i'm talking about are like you know i'm not like now i realize that those like traveling wasn't important after all like nope it really was important it's really great it's like it's not critical um i i'm it's a nice to have it's not a need to have um the that freedom was was nice and i miss it and it's great um and i but um so i i think i don't think i'm not sure i've had some like massive shift in like values or priorities um i i do feel like it is you know it was it was before it was like it sucked to go away from my wife for two weeks but like worth it you know she would agree worth it you should go like yeah always other time it it feels like not okay to go away from a two-year-old for two weeks like again she'd be fine but i feel like our bond is like a very core important thing for her and i don't want to just uh to not be there for that so um so i'm prioritizing her over those things but that's not because i think those are less important than they were um yeah uh and the other thing is you know i think that a friend reminded me of these the other day that like this phase when you're really you lose a lot of freedom you lose a lot of freedom you lose a lot of freedom because the kids are so little and you're kind of like you know they it's relentless if we're doing you know if we do an afternoon on sunday and it's just like me and her there's a five-hour weight window between nap and sleep and it's like this is a very low iq person to be spending five hours with like this is you know again i i she delights me but like on hour three and a half and i'm like i i cannot read that book again that you want me to read for the fifth time and like you know it's it is it is relentless and it's like that's the thing that's the thing that's that phase is temporary because at some point these two little kids are five and seven now they're playing with each other playing with themselves yeah they go to school so it's like less time they go to maybe go to camp in the summer so very quickly and then i think you know what everyone says of course it happens so quickly and then you miss the time so we try to savor it and appreciate and appreciate that the freedom is not it's not a permanent loss it's a loss right now in return for something nice so i'm trying to frame it that way so it's like i'll have i'll get you ready retreats later you know i'll have plenty of time in my you got the rest of your life for that yeah like you know so if they go to camp and they're like oh i'm gonna go to camp i can do it in the summer like there's just plenty of times you can do that later totally all right speaking of which you are currently in grind mode on a book are you talking about that book yet or are you are you yeah yeah it's it's a it's uh it's like uh it's i don't know the exact title yet but it's like everything the story of everything it's the history of the universe right big bang to the end of the universe it's basically an excuse for me to cover all my favorite topics along the way um and it's way easier than the last book in terms of it's it's a it's a hard project but it's just every 10 pages i'm on a different topic so it feels like blogging and i'm getting sick of the topic and it's not like current events were happening before they changed the book i'm like well now i have to incorporate this there's none of that other than some stuff with the near future yeah um and um and also i think i have figured out my you know my systems a little bit more with the so i it's it's moving along it's going to be done in like two years as opposed to seven for the last book um it's just a total disaster i'm happy to hear that yeah well any idea when it's when it's supposed to come out well that one's in print now which is really fun so i'll send you one of these oh cool yeah i'd love to have that um but yeah and i think you owe it to me to start another book because it's not fair i don't like what's happening here where you're like somehow feel like you're free of the hell that we signed up for you know it's funny i was actually under contract to do another book it was in the or beginning of 24 uh and i just got on a call with my publisher and i was like you know what i haven't started writing and i don't think i'm going to and uh imagine the freedom and then they they were like well fuck you manson give us our money back and so i wrote a check and gave the money back and uh life's been good yeah life's been really good after i with not being in hell for a little bit. - Yeah, it's, you know, after, I think, between starting subtle art and finishing will's book i think it was seven seven eight years of writing pretty much non-stop uh so yeah the the last two and a half three has been really nice but i am starting to have ideas for the next book and like get a little bit of the itch um you know it's it's it is kind of like well it's what i hear pregnancy is like is that you forget how hard it is and uh totally and so it's you start i i'm already like playing those head games where i'm like whoa you know it's like that's a simple concept i bet i could bang that out in six months and you know i'm like clearly i know i know i in my head i have this this vision for a future book because these books are both going to be you know the first draft is 200 000 words plus for both and then i cut it down to you know 140 whatever i'm like what if i wrote a 60 000 word book and i wrote 2 000 words a week for 30 of the 50 weeks of the year with some of the books that i've written and i'm like well i'm not sure if i'm going to be able to do that i'm not sure if i'm going to be able to do that i'm not sure if i'm going to be able to some weeks off in the middle and i just wrote i just woke up in the morning wrote 400 words and got on with my day and i'm like piece of cake somehow that seems why can't i just do that that sounds so easy wake up write one microsoft word page five days a week for 30 of the 50 weeks of the year handed in it always sounds it always sounds great when you say it out loud and then when you go to try to do it you uh it's like eating glass for 18 months i know it really really is right now i'm on i'm like i'm i'm like i'm a hundred and seventy thousand words into this draft and right now i have one big chapter left and then i'm gonna then have the hideous process of cutting it down and in fact there's over a thousand fat checks my fact checker has ready for me that i haven't even looked at yet but oh my god the other thing to think about is you know we both have experienced both books and articles like you also could just be like you know what i'm gonna write a go back to the days when i write like a killer viral article twice a month and uh do that you know but it's hard to know because that feels like you do all this work and there's not really it just kind of goes away it kind of like yeah on the other hand it's just like you get the instant gratification of publishing right then and you can you can hop on something you're thinking about right then and just get it out or you can i mean i guess you can do that on your other mediums i i will say i am really really enjoying being in back in internet land uh it's it feels like home it's like it's like coming home after living abroad or something um but yeah there is a lot of stuff that i've been doing for a long time that i've been doing for a long time that i've been doing for a long time that there is an impermanence to it like there is a little bit of a treadmill type aspect to it of like you just have to keep producing month after month after month and it feels like it nothing lasts for very long like every once in a while like one thing will hit and it'll last for a few years like if you had done subtle art as a as a series of each chapter just was a post it would have been oh much worse much worse decision right so yeah yeah yeah it's a hard one there is but but but if i had done the year one of wait but why you know you're as as one big book it would have been worse because it was better to have that be yeah to me there's like each has its strategic place yeah um and and also like some ideas you know obviously some ideas don't merit a book and uh some ideas shouldn't stick around for more than a few months or a year or two but it is it i have been having a lot of fun with it but yeah i do like there is a permanence and a significance that comes with a book that you you just you don't really get any other way so i will be back at it at some point okay yeah all right dude well this has been a blast thank you so much for making the time and yeah good luck finishing up the manuscript thank you i'll keep you posted cool the subtle art i'm not giving a fuck podcast is produced by drew bernie it's edited by andrew nishimura jessica choys our videographer and sound engineer thank you for listening and we will see you next week