22. How To Survive Your Ph.D: Addiction Research, Science Communication, Boundaries, & Being Your Unique Self with Dr. Elizabeth Berry

(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to a chat with Uma, with me, your host, Uma R. Chatterjee. On this podcast, I bring together all of my roles as a neuroscientist, researcher, board certified mental health peer specialist, mental health advocate, community builder, and a survivor with lived experience to bring you honest and unfiltered conversations exploring our true human experiences in their fullest form. Every week, I'm bringing you conversations bridging the gap on all things neuroscience, psychology, mental health, lived experience, advocacy, psychedelics, and more. This is a space for raw unfiltered truth to truly explore ourselves for who we are and how we are. I cannot wait to connect with you, answer all of your questions and co-create this with you. Welcome to a chat with Uma. Hello, my beautiful friends, and welcome back to another episode of a chat with Uma. I am so giddy and excited to introduce today's episode guest who is Dr. Elizabeth Berry, an amazing neuroscientist, science communicator, digital creator, artist, and just an all-around amazing human being. Dr. Elizabeth Berry just received her PhD, yay, in cell biology with a specialization and neuroscience from New York Medical College this past May. For her dissertation project, she focused on opioid addiction and the impact it has on specific neurons in the brain called ereccent neurons. She is currently working as a postdoctoral fellow and Dr. Leonard's lab, the lab she did her dissertation in, furthering the research she pursued during her PhD. In the future, she hopes to work in an industry position as a scientist on neurodegenerative diseases. And let me tell you, this bio does not even begin to encapsulate all of her magic and all of the amazing ways she shows up in the world. Of course, many of which we get into in the episode, but I am just so excited to have Dr. Berry on the show because honestly, she's exactly the kind of person like that inspired me starting the show and creating the space to really just get far deeper into a person beyond the amazing ways they show up in the world. All of their amazing work, I mean, her research is so fascinating. We're gonna hear all about it. But the way in which she shows up in her research, in her art, in her science communication, in just the human she is, she is just so curious, so open, so creative and she really unabashedly shares that about herself in a world that really, at this point, isn't super conducive of people, especially scientists, being their full selves in that space. And she really has broken so many barriers, has built and carved her own path for expressing herself and she has gotten so far doing exactly that, being exactly who she is. So I just loved getting to really dig into her background, her past, all of the different parts of her life that informed the way she navigated her research, her interests, the way she lives her life now, just really getting into so many of the things she was she knew, going into a PhD. And this is of course such an amazing episode for anyone going into a PhD or anyone in biomedical sciences or research, such as me, of course. But I think anyone listening to this can really, of course not just learn from her amazing research, but really take so much wisdom about work life, balance and about tuning into ourselves as people. And she just does an amazing job of that in a field and in a space that I can first hand attest to, like is the least conducive of all of that. So she's just an amazing example, and just such a beautiful human being, and you definitely will hear that in this episode. So without further ado, let's get into the amazing episode ahead, this conversation with Dr. Elizabeth Barry. (upbeat music) I'm so happy to have you here. Dr. Liz, you are someone who just brings me so much inspiration and joy and hope in being a scientist. And before we get into everything and just getting to know you in all the ways, I just wanna say that you have been so kind to me over the last, I feel, I don't even know how long, at least a year, and just really welcomed me as my full self as someone who is kind of far earlier on the journey to being a scientist and being a researcher. I've just looked up to you in the way that you, of course, are a scientist and a science communicator, but you're also just someone who really normalizes the human experience and really, really loves what she does and just like really expands the definition of what, like being a human who does research versus just identifying as a researcher. And you've just, you know, in the ways that I've kind of broken a lot of the rules, I guess, of traditional academia and what I disclose on the internet. You've just been, and let's see, supportive of me and have just been so generous and so kind of think that speaks so much to you as a human. So first of all, that's just a full ramble to say thank you for who you are in this world. And it's such a joy to know you and to know that you exist and you make me feel like I belong. So thank you so much, first and foremost. And I have to say, as soon as we met at Lasso Fund, this past year, it was like immediate, like I'm gonna get along with you, you know, you could immediately tell, immediately just broke the barriers down and we could just like chat like we were friends. It was really cool. - That's exactly how I felt too and also for anyone listening, the way that I even met, Liz at S.F.N. was that, Liz was like, hey on Instagram, like which we'll get into her platform, but like on Instagram, she was like, who all is there and presenting their poster? I want to meet you and be friends. And I was like, well, I guess I'll tell her that I'm sharing a poster, but like there's no expectation of like her coming to see my poster of all people. And then like she was the first person that showed up and then actually like cared about my research. And like it was just one of those examples of her being such a kind human, not just on the internet, but in real life. So I was so so happy to meet you there. And I can't wait to see you again there in this year. - Yeah, absolutely. Because I was at first at S.F.N. It's right? - Yep, yep, it was. - And like those are scary. Like when I was there for the first time, I was like, oh boy. So I like to make people feel comfortable. I like doing that because I was definitely a fish out of water on my first year. - And not just at me, S.F.N.s one example of really just academia and research being like, oh, what the fuck is going on all the time? And just like you just, I don't know, you just make it so normalized. You almost make it seem like anyone can do it, which I believe they can. So you're amazing. You're so special. And with that, my first question before we get into all the amazing things you do and the ways you show up in the world, because oftentimes we identify ourselves and we're asked who we are as like what we do, what our job is, what our degree is, whatever. But who is the person behind all that you do and the ways you show up in the world? How would you describe yourself? - So innately I think I am just a really creative person and I get bored really easily. Like it's kind of funny. Like I have to be doing something. I like being simulated. I like coming up with new ideas for if I'm drawing something or if it's like a new experiment, if I'm in the shower, I'll figure something out that I should have, you know, like an experiment like, oh, I should analyze it this way. You know, I just, I'm really spontaneous and creative and that's innately who I am. And that's basically the jumpstart platform for everything I do. - I know, I love that you had immediate answer to that question because a lot of times people don't 'cause they don't think about that. And I think the fact that you had such an immediate response and you know exactly what to say, it just goes to show how much you've reflected on the way you show up in the world and who you are and how those traits and how those interests feed into the different things you do, which are so many things. So thank you so much for sharing that and your creativity, your spontaneity. And I would add your generosity, which you're not gonna say about yourself, but I'm gonna say that about you. Just really, really shapes you and the beautiful human you are. And so I'll start with the parts of your story that lend itself to kind of maybe the biggest thing that at least you're known for in the world, maybe not the biggest thing about you, but being a researcher, being a neurobiologist, like what parts of your life growing up led you to developing that interest, you know, fostering that curiosity and then leading you to that form of a vocation? - Yeah, so I kind of always really loved nature. I loved watching all of the Nova shows, the nature shows on like PBS growing up on TV. And I would collect those like pages that they sent you in the mail. I had this like giant binder of them. And I would spend a lot of time in the garden with my parents, specifically with earthworms, it would collect them and I would put them in buckets 'cause I was like, they're dirty, they need a bath, which ended up killing them. I didn't know what was going on back then, obviously. But like, I was just really curious about everything growing up and I remember in, I think it was like first grade, they had us make a role model out of like plastic bottles. We had to like dress it up and like, you know, make it look like the person that's our role model. And I chose Jane Goodall, right off the bat in first grade. So like I've always like aspired to be a researcher. Basically, from watching all the shows and everything that I did when I was growing up, and it's kind of transformed into what type of researcher I've wanted to be throughout my life. I thought I wanted to be an environmentalist, obviously growing up because that's all that I was exposed to. But what really, like, tip me off was I took an ecology class in undergrad. I hated that. It was terrible. It was like, all this math and population dynamics and counting how many offspring were there were. And I was like, nah, I'm not interested in that at all. And then I like, you know, piloted into more plant science and eventually neuroscience, but I can get into more of that later on if you want. Oh, we're going to get into it. I want to know all the things. And so you knew kind of growing up and in your, I'm assuming late adolescence, early adulthood that you want to be a researcher. And then in college, you realized that it wasn't going to be environmental science. How did you, like, what did you do with that where you lost and confused about what to do? And then you eventually came into biology and neuroscience or was it an immediate transition? How did that happen? Yeah. I was a little unsure what the hell I was going to do after I was like, wow, I hate ecology, but it was lucky because at the same time I was taking this plant science course. And I was obsessed with this course. Like I was like, yeah, I want to know what the like plant sections look like. I want to know what those cell types are because there was a lab that went with it. And I could look at like slides and we could draw and identify like cell types of plants. Obviously that picked my interest the drawing. So there was just like this whole connection. And then the professor that taught that plant science course, I just like went up to her one day. I think it was like maybe after the first exam. And I was like, you do research. And she was like, yeah, I do. And I was like, that's really cool. Can I join your lab? And we had like one meeting and she let me get her lab. And that's basically, I was sophomore year undergrad and I was in her year in her like lab for three years in undergrad, working on plant science. And that was my first lab experience where I realized that yeah, I really do like being in the laboratory. Did you know going into college that you could join a lab or like how are there scientists in your family? Like how did you even know to ask that question? I kind of, I don't really have a filter in some degree. I kind of ask a lot of questions kind of annoying. I guess I just like keep going. So I may that's probably why, but I do have a family member that worked in J and J. Johnson and Johnson. And I have a close family friend that worked in Pfizer. So like I was aware of like the scientific field, but I had no academic researchers or you know, academic scientists or lab scientists like in the family or close to me really. Well I would say number one, if I'm going to define myself the first word that comes to my unfiltered, I have no filter too. So I can see why I begin along so well to what you perceive as annoying. I think is when you're greatest strengths as a researcher and a human being curious and wanting to learn more and evolve beyond what we've been told, which shows up in a lot of ways in your life. And three, that's really interesting that you had some level of exposure to research, but not academic research, because that's its own almost black box of how to navigate into academia and degrees and this, that and the other thing. So yeah. So you were in this lab and then I'm assuming you graduated and then how on earth did you find yourself in a neuroscience doctoral degree with zero neuroscience experience? Yeah, so I did plant science, molecular biology, plant science and histology in undergrad. And then at the end of my undergrad degree, my Nana passed away from Parkinson's disease. It was my the summer in between my junior and senior year and this kind of like, you know, threw me off. I was just like, I was living with her with that disease, you know, but like the death kind of triggered me and I really just like was like, what why? I was like, I need to know why. And of course my like eccentric brain was like question, question, question kept thinking, looking at papers online. I was like, I want to do this. I know I like the lab. I can do it in a different topic than plant science. And I also knew that I wanted to do something more like medically related and those two things just kind of came together. But by the time my brain figured this out, of course, I it was like towards the end of undergrad, I was graduating and obviously the PhD that lines had passed. So I was like, well, what do I do now? I instead applied for master's programs and I was accepted into master's programs and chose my school that I did my PhD in to do a master's program in the microbiology department. Because that's another story. I was actually like really heavily microbiology immunology major in undergrad, not plant. I was all over the place basically. But so I did a six months in the master's program and immediately applied for the PhD program in my school and was accepted and started the PhD the next year. My gosh, that is such a testament to this idea or soul that like people who are the most successful have to follow a linear path and to know what they're doing and like they need to just like follow this very specific framework of you apply at this time and do it this way. And you were just like, oh, I missed that deadline. I'm going to figure out another way to get in and like you really truly just forged your path forward. And I think that is the biggest marker of resilience and success because my gosh, like I actually didn't know all of those parts of how you got to your PhD said that is wild. And so just like a clarification question, like when you started your masters were you a part of a lab at all and like was that the same lab that you then did your PhD in or like how did that go about? Oh my gosh. That's a whole nother. I've done way too many types of research I have to say. So while I was in my master's program for like the year that I was in the program, I joined a lab that worked on new vascularization to like development of new blood vessels in the pharmacology department at my school, which of course I've never had an experience before the only experience I came into with that was I knew at a cell culture and I knew how to do a lot of molecular biology. And I was accepted into that lab. I was luckily paid for that year, which was awesome. And no, that was not the lab I did my PhD and obviously because that's not nervous. But you knew going in to the masters to then do your PhD that you wanted to do neuroscience? Yeah, I did. Wow. But there were no labs that were open to pay basically during that time. So I chose a paid position. That's so smart. And also to to your point of you said you've done too many types of research. I mean, the way I see it is you've learned you've learned how to learn. Obviously a PhD does that. But even prior like you learned how to learn techniques and different fields and like the amount of interdisciplinary and multidisciplinary work you did, I know for a fact like fed into the way you navigated your research and the creativity and the expansion that you have in the way you navigate research. So wow, I love hearing all this. And so okay, getting into the actual PhD, the time of doing that. I'm about to enter that you just exited my gosh. So did you know what lab you wanted to join for the PhD when you could eventually like officially get paid that way? So the way that my school works is you have rotations that you do. So I'm in an inter, I was in an interdiscent apply. I can't even say it's called IPP interdiscent culinary. Okay, I'm sorry. My brain is not functioning. But basically you choose three labs to rotate in and you choose one of those labs to actually do your PhD in now. Did Liz do three rotations? No. I did four because I just break every single rule plus and this point. So I chose my first lab in my rotation, which was a Parkinson's research lab. Obviously, I was like, I'm going, I need to see what's up with that. I was going to choose that lab as my dissertation lab, but I'll get to that in a second. My second rotation was in an epilepsy lab. And I just physically couldn't handle watching seizures. So I knew that was a no that really bothered me. So I just knew I couldn't do that. And then the third lab I rotated in was my lab I chose for my PhD. And then the fourth one that I rotated in was because I was like, oh, I'm really not sure because I really wanted to choose the first one I did, but they said no because of like funding issues. So I did a fourth one. And that was like on stem cells research, like in induced pluripotent stem cells, pushing them into neurons kind of deal. So I did four and I ended up choosing my third rotation, which was my PhD research. I'm about to start rotations too. And I'm like, they say that you have three, but you can do more if you need to, although like they kind of don't want you to. I'm like, I'm a rule breaker. I'm already. I'm going to do that. But we're signing our life to them. They should probably help us out. So no, you know, I want to make sure. Yeah, and I do really got to make sure. Yep, because that's a marriage. That is a marriage that eventually ends in. you know divorce or whatever you want to call it. But it is a marriage and it's log. So what was the general like topic or technique or like what that you that ended up being why you chose the lab in the first place, the third lot that you rotated in? So the decision was based on the lab was really heavy in neuro histology and I knew I had a really good background in that already so I could bring that to the table and kind of jump into that side of the lab while learning the crazy technique called electrophysic host because I thought that was really cool that you could record from live neurons but boy does that take a long time to learn. So while doing histology and being proficient in it, I was baby stepping my way into the electrophysiology land to learn actually to be a proficient wholesale pot of clamper but I got there because I regret doing it so we're good. But it was basically electrophysiology and histology where my main like techniques throughout my PhD. And what generally does your lab study like on a high level like what subject what's like what's its interest? So the hist that like historically the lab that I joined studies sleep and so you know the different regions in the brain that control wake regulation, sleep regulation and primarily focuses on the erection system or hypercretin system in the lateral hypothermic region and they totally focused on the projections of those neurons to the serotonergic neurons in the dorsal or fa and the involvement of narcolepsy and cataplexia. So narcolepsy you're really sleepy all the time. These patients they don't have erexin peptide or very little erexin peptide in their brain because those neurons actually degenerate and cataplexia which is the loss of muscle tone in response to like a positive stimuli. And so we have a lot of narcoleptic mouse models in the lab but I obviously didn't focus on sleep for my project. I focused on addiction and this was a completely new component that I brought to the lab and my project it came out of nowhere of course at an SFN meeting. So I was at a poster that I was presenting with my lab mate and who are now our colleagues they came up to the poster and they started talking to us and they were like oh we have this really cool finding in the erection system where the erexin neurons they increase a number and decrease in size following morphine addiction and they're like we need some electrophysiologist to figure out what the hell's going on basically because they don't have electrophysiology in their lab and so that became my project. Figure out what the hell's going on after morphine addiction and these erexin neurons. So when you joined your lab did you have an overt interest in any of those topics or the techniques like what like did you yeah like what what let you up to be able to like get through that PhD because my god is that a process. So I guess I'm lucky in that I am very flexible like a lot of different things interest me except for diabetes. That's probably one of the only things I don't. Anything involved like insulin I'm like tune out for some reason my brain doesn't care but um so but if it was like the brain I was like okay like I'm excited I want to learn about how neurons fire I want to learn about their acutentials I want to learn about like what what why are they different okay they may stain different with different proteins but why are they electrically different like that's still kind of like unexplored and not many people actually know about that so being able to learn about that and then eventually you know talk about that with the general public is something that excited me. Yeah and that really really shows and I think this is going to lead me to my next question but the way you communicate your science specifically in such an accessible and exciting way like your enthusiasm really shows and your awe and your interest in neuroscience and specifically like neural cells is just it really really shines through and so that leads me to my question of what was the transition like for you of being you know interested in neuroscience like you're finding your interest in neuroscience in your undergrad but not having that undergrad experience and degree to then like being thrown into this scenario of full-blown neurobiology PhD neurons like all of that in a non-traditional way oh yeah yeah I had zero knowledge about the moment when I came in I I literally like I'm not even joking I was microbiology immunology I was like all right toxoplasma Gandhi I streptococcus pneumonia it smells like berries on the plate you know like I was like full microbiology plant science and then I came in here and I was like looking at brain attlases and I was like all right I need to figure out how to get this to be understandable to me um so what did I do I took microsoft slides and I sat on a microscope for a really long time with an necklace and basically tried to be like oh where is this and that was find down the atlas go back to the slide and go back to the atlas because I was comfortable with histology so that's how I kind of brought myself in taking the medical neuroscience course that is required by all the students here in neuroscience like you have to take it with the medical students it's like their course was quite a ride I have to it was really difficult but I made it through but it was quite a struggle because I had no the way you talked about just like the create to me at least being familiar enough with like how people are taught or learn neuroscience like for you taking that creative way of like hey I am you know comfortable with histology I think what I'm also seeing about you is that you're you know very visual you're very creative so like how can you lean into those strengths to teach yourself in a way that like you probably would have been not been taught in a class like it's usually just diagrams and figures and you know memorizing this that and the other thing like that is so inspiring to me as someone who definitely I learned differently and I have a lot to catch up on to I didn't do my undergrad in neuroscience so I really really love that and with that transition like did you ever doubt that you were able to learn it or you were able to catch up and did that at all color your experience in your PhD? So that question kind of stems on like your point that everyone learns like a little differently but I've always felt that I have learned and I learn very differently than other people and so this like brings me back to like you know high school stuff right I don't do as well on standardized tests I suck at standardized tests like I'm really not good at them and like so like throughout college and undergrad and like even the PhD program here taking standardized tests terrible like I did I did the best that I could I mean I excelled in biochem really well because that topic is just like in Britain for some reason but you really have to like think outside the box and really pull your strings because like I really did think that I was kind of unable to learn as well but then I just realized that I was just needing to pull on drawing or you know physically touching things like walking around I would walk on a treadmill while going over flashcards because I just needed to like be actively moving kind of stuff like that so by the time I took medical neuroscience I kind of had a lot of the tools I needed to dry myself through that even though it was quite hard still What kept you motivated enough to figure out how to learn rather than kind of falling into hopelessness about the fact that like objectively it's standardized ways that you weren't falling into the norm yeah um so I guess what like turned me on to that was like okay if I took a multiple choice test Liz was an average Joe right didn't do that good um but if I took an open-ended test I got like a hundred like if I was given liberty to not choose questions or choose like you know answers that were given to me I could answer it fine but it was like as soon as I give it was given these restricted thought pieces I just couldn't my brain was like well I came up with something over there they're only given me these so which one did I pick out of the options provided so the fact that I was successful in a type of format I was like there's something that I'm still good at so I need to figure out how to use that and ignore all this other crap that's trying to put me in a bubble because I'm not a bubble person broke it a while ago do you this is kind of like a tangential question but I'm so curious because I've you posted about your mom at least before like in terms of you know everything she does like in the outside world like gardening growing beautiful flowers and other things and then like you just and you also talked about growing up like you were just very outside you were very in touch with nature like did you I guess I can't help but wonder like what was your relationship with your family like to like fostered that kind of resilience and belief in yourself because I mean from such a young age you've been doing it I guess so I spent a lot of time with my family outside because we garden a lot so we grow like tons of vegetables the flower stuff really only took off after my mom retired and now she has her own little local flower business where she sells locally to flower shops. So that was like a more recent thing, but we've always grown vegetables. And so I was always out in the garden playing with my parents, and I think just being outside and having the freedom to think and not be on the TV and have unstructured playtime really allows you to generate your own likes and dislikes and your own creative paths. And I spent a lot of time outside. I spent a lot of time drawing when I was little and playing with a lot of like playmobile or animal movies and stuff like that. But I had a lot of like free creative playtime. And I think that's what really helped me and my parents, they always told me to not restrict myself to not you know pin myself as like I don't like me. I don't like history. I really don't like history still. I'm going to keep with that. But um I kind of kept myself open, which is I think how I allowed myself to get into so many different types of research. So I was like, through I'll try it. Why not? And that really just lends itself to the way I feel like you what the way you've shared how you've kept yourself intact as much as one can. I guess through a PhD if like as much as you had to just like be there all day every day, which is a whole other topic to get into like you still like came back to who you are and the parts of yourself to foster that creativity that presents like being outside you're outside so much you inspire me to go outside more and to move more and to create and you know I am not an artist but in other ways. So I love that you shared that and like I can see in a medicine's how that bloomed into parts of who you are today. So coming back to the nitty gritty of the research in that world like so you're relatively new to neurobiology you have passion for it. You have a very personal reason to go into that field. You're in this PhD. It's so intensive like how you know you talked about your project developing like well I guess first of all can you on a high level like just share I know this is a hard question in getting into like the biology and I promise I'm not trying to make you do your dissertation but like just for people who want to know about like you and your work like what what was your PhD research what was the project ultimately. Yeah sure so it will be published soon the papers are almost done two papers yay so basically as I was saying before this project happened at an sfm meeting and it was based on the finding that if you give well this was found in humans first in heroin addicts but it was also replicated in a mouse model if you give mice morphine for two weeks once daily for two weeks the erection neurons in their lateral hypothelmic area they become smaller in size and there's more of them but the part that was really interesting to us as an electrophysiologist standpoint is the small size because if you change the size of a neuron that changes their surface area and if you change the surface area of a neuron that changes their excitability potentially and if you have a smaller neuron you could have a more excitable neuron so we actually thought that after two weeks of chronic morphine exposure you might have more excitable erection neurons and so that's what we thought going in but what did I find out so it turns out there are two types of erection neurons and the only way you can currently figure out the two types is if you use whole cell patch clamp recording electrical recordings one of them is called a D type it's depolarizing type it fires faster after you give it a negative pulse of a current and then the other ones a H type it's a hyperpolarizing type if you give it a negative pulse of current it has a delay to recover returning to firing potentials so there's two types D and H type and then so what I did was I addicted mice for two weeks I recorded the electrical potentials from these D and H type neurons from control and morphine treated mice and I found that only one type of the erection neurons was impacted by morphine exposure it was turned out to be the H type but they weren't more excitable they were actually less excitable which was wholly confusing to us because that didn't match what we thought would happen with a smaller somatic size so it turns out the result from the first part of my PhD I'm not going to go into the second paper thing but it's we have a less excitable erection neuron so the erection system might be actually less excitable in patients who are heroin addicts for example or opioid addicts which is I new take on the field and you have to think about it differently when you're giving patients like therapeutic drugs then because the system is working differently in our eyes than we originally thought my gosh that is just such a classic example of what really lights me up of like I guess there's one version of like oh you go into a project you think you know what's gonna happen and then it happens and you've confirmed it versus like totally discovering something completely new that you didn't expect and like it can be scary and like what is this gonna happen like what is gonna happen to my degree what's gonna happen to my you know findings accept like you're totally changed in the world and my gosh the way you shared it it just sounded like you were so almost like comfortable with that pivot in that uncertainty which I think is such a marker in something like I aspire to as a as an upcoming researcher as well so thank you so much for sharing that and going to the ephus part of all this because you are a queen ephus in my mind like that you touched on it briefly earlier but for people who just like want to learn more about techniques in different ways of doing neuroscience research so first on a high level do you want to tell us about what electrophysiology is and the specific version of ephus that you did yeah of course so electrophysiology is kind of like a broad term and it generally involves you recording the electrical potentials of neurons and this can be a group of neurons you can literally like a classic experiment as if you stick a electrode that can record electrical potentials from neurons into the hippocampus and activate part of the hippocampus and you can measure like this chain reaction of electrical potentials that happen through the hippocampus that's one type where you just did stick a like an electrode broadly within the tissue my technique however is called whole cell patch clamp recording where I record from a single neuron and so the way that you do this is you take a glass electrode you pull it so it's really really small and then the inside of that there is a recording electrode and you stick that to a single neuron so your electrode on the single neuron membrane you apply negative pressure which will rupture the cell membrane inside the glass pipe pet that's touching the neuron so your glass pipe pet is connected with the inside of the neuron then and then you can actually measure that neuron firing actual potentials and you can actually change the membrane potential that then neuron is actually like raise it up to bring it down and this allows you to measure different ion channels different currents you can apply different drugs and blockers onto them to assess the active currents at different potentials different scenarios my husband and I talk all the time about this concept that like we as humans are looking for magic in the world but like sometimes we forget that like this shit we do right now is actually magical like you what you just described like people like you can take cells and you can like I just imagine like what the size of a cell a cell in a rodent for that matter because I know you did rodent research and like you're able to like get into the cell and then change the cell like that is freaking magical and also like a somewhat I have not done ethos but I watched ethos by one of the postdocs in my last lab like extensively because I was fascinated and I wanted to learn more if this is something I should do and he seems to think I should I don't know if I will but I he think anyway because like I did a really long experiment there apart just a lot of like needing to deal with all these factors anyway like watching that process like firsthand I'm it's it's it's magical like I can't think of a it's a stupid word but I can't think of a better word and that's like just so many hats off to you for even being able to do so and so for people who don't know that don't want to hear me rambling about it like what I mean I mean I guess I'm getting to this is a really long process in terms of how long it takes to learn and be able to be proficient at it it's also a really long process on a day-to-day basis when you're actually doing the experiment right so like what kind of like what did that look like for you like what kind of schedule would you have people to do this just one technique um this technique is extremely exhausting you need a lot of like resilience that's for sure um it took me about I don't know I started this technique in 2017 I think and then I was like actually proficient by 2019 so it took me like a good two years and um I started patching like the dorsal rafi serotoner drich neurons first that they're really fat so they're like really easy to find in pot so they're like a good sell to start is that they're really just big you would need because you're like looking for a single neuron you need something the erects and neurons are tiny so I had to start big and then I like went smaller But like day to day, my schedules were kind of correctly, to say. So my experiments, as I talked about, they required me to use mice that I addicted for two weeks. So these were highly valuable mice, right? Like I didn't want to not get as many neurons as I could. I didn't want to waste anything. I wanted to like get as much as possible out of each one. So my schedule was basically, you know, I'll come into lab at nine. I make brain slices, well, I would inject the mice around 10, wouldn't make brain slices around like 11, 30, 12, and then I'd start patching at 1 p.m. And then I was there in the lab from 1 p.m. Until I got at least 10 cells. It was, and that could take me in the beginning until 10 p.m. But as I got more proficient over the years, it only took me until about 6 p.m. You know, with the last round of experiments, because I was more efficient at actually finding a cell and actually, you know, getting a good recording and continuing with that experiment for each cell. But they are very long days. Yeah, and that just really makes me think about for those who haven't gone through a PhD, which is most people or like, don't know as much about that space. Like so much of that process is almost like pulling an arrow back, like back, back, back until like, you know, your train until you're, you know, really with it, which can take years. And then finally, you watch forward. And then in the last like relative to the whole PhD few years is when you're getting like all of your work. And then you're like, I'm ready to leave because I've been here for so freaking long. And a lot of times, the people who have trained you in invested time and you're like, well, you're just getting started. It's like, I've been getting started for years. And I am ready to go. So my gosh, what a testament to resilience. And like in all of those really long days and the years it took for you to feel like you were proficient at the technique, like, what kept you going? Because that could easily just muddled on a person or, you know, have someone leave or quit because it's just too much. And it's not worth it. Like what made it worth it? And what kept you going? I guess so obviously like it wasn't like, you know, flowers and daisies the whole time. Like I was pretty burnt out like really, really tired. Like on the like I would patch for four days a week because these experiments, they were two like two weeks and then I'd have all these animals to do. So I do like Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. By Friday, I was like dragging my feet through the door and literally on autopilot. So Praige for my hands, just, you know, my muscle memory doing everything because I was absolutely branded on those days. But what really kept me going is I was good at learning that I needed breaks. So I don't care. Like if you think you're really cool for working on the weekends, I'm sorry. Like I just just don't like give me like you, I had to go and do injections, but I'll go home. Like you need time to rest and like I learned this basically because when was I able to draw? I was able to draw when I was relaxed. I was able to draw and be creative when I had time to just like not force my brain into structured thought and just relax and enjoy myself and have downtime. And it works the same with science. Like if you want to be able to get back in there, you need to give yourself downtime. So take the breaks. I took my breaks. I forced myself to do things like go on hikes. I'm draw something even though it was kind of painful because I was like, wow, I'm not creative, but I need to like get something out of me. And obviously a support system. So my now fiance is was a really, really good support system and kind of like was like, we're going to dinner tonight. I was like, okay. And you know, you've just like dragged me out. And like so having a really good support system and knowing when I was absolutely terribly burnt out and to like take a step back and make sure I don't work on the weekends unless I absolutely do for some reason, like there's a difference or something is really important to keep going because it's a long time. Like I was that was seven years for me. Okay. Oh my gosh. I'm like, which question do I go with first? Okay. Because I have a whole question about your fiance and you know, your relationship and how that played into your whole trajectory. But what you just touched on in terms of like everything that the really important wisdom of making sure you're taking care of yourself. Yeah, there's deadlines and sometimes we need to hustle but like making sure for the most part you're taking care of yourself. How did you toggle, especially toward the end of your PhD of like, oh, I just need to like put my head down and get this shit done. I need to get done and get out of here and like stopping me this little and like all of that versus also like, oh, every break I take like I may need a break, but that means I'm going to be here longer. Like how did you toggle that tension and make decisions that way? Yeah, so it gets I have I'm sorry to say this, but the last year who PhD will be the absolute hardest year. And I know like, I just want to give the full on heads up because like I didn't really see it coming. I was like, Oh, like I did all the experiments like whatever. No, writing your dissertation will be the absolutely hardest thing you will do because the stress that you're under is disgusting. And so I handled my stress pretty well up until about December of last year, December 2022. And then from then until I submitted my dissertation on April 3, I was a hot mess. I was I was a hot mess. Basically, I was something that I found that helped though is like so basically like the anxiety that you feel because of the pressure of getting like sections in your dissertation, talking to your committee member, having meetings with them, having things prepared, etc. You're not sleeping well. You have this anxiety that like sits in the top of your stomach. I started taking CBD gummies. They helped me a ton with that because like if I didn't have to feel things, I knew it was there. All right, but I didn't have to actually physically feel it. I could sleep better and then I could actually wake up the next day and start over again. So like once I started doing like the CBD gummies at night, I could fall asleep. I woke up in the morning and I could just sit down and get to work again. So you you have to find something that works for you. Maybe that will, but it's definitely a stressful time and giant heads up for that. Very clearly here. I'm just like asking all the questions that I'm going to need because I know what I'm signing up for us starting. Like maybe a little too much. Like I'm already, I mean, you can't know until you actually do it, but I'm already over prepared for like probably in a negative way of how shitty it's going to be. I'm not seeing like the positive parts, except for I love research, but no, that's that's so important. And thank you for being open and honest and not just here on this podcast, but in everything you create like normalizing the human experience and the realities of just stress and even in the best of circumstances where everything is beautiful and life is great. Like being under that much pressure and in such an intensive situation, like it is normal and a very like it's the expected reaction to have in that situation. And we can talk all day about like why that's the fact that maybe that situation shouldn't be the situation, but given that that is the case right now, like you had a normal human experience, you struggled, you were open about it and you you got through, but all of that was so valid and thank you for sharing the some of the ways that you coped and also just at the end of the day, like normalizing it. That's a lot of what you do with your work. And so gosh, I have to get into all of your advocacy and your science communication, but before that, I wanted to talk about your, you know, amidst all of this and through your whole PhD and otherwise, like first of all, you're engaged in you have an amazing Beyonce and to my understanding, like he's not in the field you're in. So he really like amongst everything as part of your relationship. He's also just a very like grounding, normalizing, like bringing you back to like the reality of the full scope of life human. Like when in your life, did you like as much as you're comfortable sharing? When did you all meet and like what did your relationship look like throughout your education and how did you navigate out of that? Yeah, so we met like, so you know, like the qualifying exam that everyone has to take during their PhD. So he, we met like around that time a little bit before I took my qualifying exam and so and I, he reminded me of this, he reminded me of this while I was doing my dissertation because I was like, he was like, remember when we first met, you told me that it was going to be a wild ride and you better jump out now because I'm going to be a hot mess and you know, I was up front with him about that and he stuck around and you know, he dealt with my hot mess and we're still clearly married. Yeah, so I was up front about it. He stuck around for a ride. He definitely does not do anything related to what I do, which I like because I don't want to take it home with me. He is in like accounting. He does like payables, like payroll, like stuff like that. Nothing to do with science, but he fumers my science like I text him this morning and I was like, my results are really good. He's like, oh yeah, there are a lot of the cells that like you were expecting to see. So he pays attention. You know, like I explained things to him. It might be like kind of gibberish, but he picks up on stuff and still pays attention to it enough to be happy when I'm happy, which is awesome. I love that so much and realizing that y'all met in the thick of the first wave of the PhD like horribleness is for lack of a better term is so amazing and such a test. to your relationship and to the kind of person that he seems to be. And I love that for you. And I'm sure, I mean, you, it sounded smooth sailing in the way you shared it, but I'm sure it's not like so simple. Like there's difficulties and balance and still like a lack of, you know, the full understanding of what you're going through. And just like sometimes that choice between like your life and your relationship and like all the work that's waiting for you. And so can you speak to what your version of balances in your mind? Like if that even exists for you, how do you define it? How do you strive for it? Is it consistent? Is it seasons? Like what's your take on that? So it's definitely I am consistent with it. But there are seasons like when there are deadlines and crazy things happen where you have to kind of like triage stuff and focus on work. But I was pretty good with, you know, maintaining like the work life balance and he is probably a primary reason for that. Because what I wanted to hang out with him, right? Obviously, like I want to hang out, I want to play video games, I want to go watch a movie, I want to go week dinner, I want to go like hiking. So like there was enough of like I want to do those things too that the work life balance happened. And for a majority of the time on weekends, like I would hang out. And then during the week, I could turn my work brain on and then do that. Obviously, some Sundays if I had to present on the Monday, I would be working all Sunday. But he was chill, he just played video games. It's great. You know, like he would just be in the room with me, which is like I really appreciate. Co-working is something that I strive with and he really, really helped me with that. Because he would just like sit in the room and read, play video games, watch a show. And I was just able to be on my laptop working still. And that really helped me throughout the whole time. I love that. And that's also a testament to the way you show up in relationship and the way he does. And that brings me a lot of hope too. Because I'm definitely afraid of what that's going to look like with my husband and my dog. And like I think what I'm realizing is you're saying that you just wanting it will help inform the way you navigate your choices. And the fact that I want it and I so deeply value it. Like maybe I don't have to worry as much. I just need to like follow my instincts and do what I need to do. And I would check myself sometimes. So thank you so much for sharing that. And did you get to see your family much throughout your PhD? Like I think you live close but not super close to them right now. Like what was that like as well? Yeah, so I'm only an hour and a half away from my parents, which was a really good distance because it's like easily attainable obviously. But I have to say the PhD you will lose out on some things, right? Because you have competing deadlines, you have competing things that are going to, if you don't do them, it's going to push you back or you'll get penalized if you don't present well or something like that at school. So I did miss out on some things. But overall, you know, I was present at most family gatherings. I was present for most holidays. The only thing is when you're doing your PhD, you're present at the gatherings, but your brain isn't necessarily present. All the time. And it's because you're constantly thinking about the things that you need to do when you leave the family gathering or you go back home or you start work again. So it's a kind of different loss. Like you may be able to attend all the gatherings still, but your brain will definitely be not as, you know, in the moment with everybody because of your degree. Is there anything that you found like helped you become more present or maybe be calmore okay with the end list to do list or was that just kind of a foregone conclusion? I definitely struggled with this for most of the time I have to say, but I guess one thing that I think about is like, you'll wake up in the middle of the night and you can't go back to sleep because you're constantly thinking about again, things you need to do or like, oh, what if the results aren't what they are when I analyze them tomorrow or like, I have a meeting with my PI, et cetera. And you have to learn like techniques to shut your brain off. And so I would count things that I mean. So I would just, and I realized it had to be words that had like more than one syllable, like cat. I can't count cats. That's like too easy. My brain's like too stimulated for cats. All right. I thought how to do like Apple or like, you know, like banana, like that's three. You know, you had to do like multiple syllables, so things at night and see how high I could go. And I would able to be able to fixate on that and get myself to sleep. And it's kind of the same thing when you're awake. You have to zen yourself out in a way. And I started using a journal and I would write down things that I had to do. And when I wrote them down, I was like, okay, there's some place that I know that are, you know, written down things I need to do. I don't need to constantly think about them because the paper is holding them for me. So I started doing that and that helped me move away from being so hyper fixated while I was like holding out with people. I could actually be in the moment. And then the paper would hold me. It's for me for later. Dang. Everything you shared is such an example of your creativity. Like the fact that you thought about syllables. I was like, what? I never thought of a pencil. My brain is really messed up. Not messed up, it's just really creative and active and sometimes your detriment. But not messed up. It's very active. Clearly. And maybe research is the best way to be for that reason because my gosh. But there's a word you used that reminded me of something that you talk about a lot. You were talking about competition in a different context, but something that you've really normalized in your work and oh my gosh, we have to get into your science communication still. But like before we get to that, you've talked a lot about this idea of like, not comparing ourselves to the people in our cohort and people around us and science look so different. And I think as someone in this transitionary period, there is this element of when you're in your undergrad or when you're, you know, as a post back in your applying for programs and even master students, whatever, there's a sense of like competition with everybody. Like, they, there's a finite number of spots and like, you have to compete with them to get to this place. And I hate that idea. But nonetheless, like, there is some level of competition. And then you get to a PhD and they're still this like a rigorous amount of competition instilled in us. And yet, we're all kind of on our own paths doing our own thing and we're not necessarily taking away from each other. So how did you navigate to because you talk about it? Like, how did you navigate like this comparison comparison, it is to everybody else and kind of getting over that and just being in your own lane and doing your own thing? Yeah. So what really helps with that is obviously that's just like an innately present that people are going to compare themselves, other people, they're going to, you know, look at what you're doing and be like and judge, mental and all that. That's just like an overlying thing that's always there. So how do you ignore that? What I did was like, okay, what techniques do I do? All right, I do electrophysiology. Do the other people do electrophysiology? Yes, some do, yeah, no, some don't do electrophysiology. Okay, how much time does it take me to do one experiment versus how much time I take someone else to do an experiment? Okay, it takes me a long, long time to do one experiment versus some experiments are very, very quick. Everything has its own timeline, even the experiments you do. So what your timeline is shouldn't be compared to other people because you're doing different things than everybody else. You're doing PCR, you're doing immunocytocamus, you're doing allizes, you're doing electrophysiology. All of those things take different amounts of time, different amounts of time to analyze and even process what the results are. So I think if you can just like break it down into pieces of like physical things you're actually doing and how long it takes you to do, that's what you should focus on because the same task might take different amounts of time for people, but it's what your timeline is that matters. And you're speaking to something that you really do an amazing job of normalizing for people, which is like rather than taking some sort of fact about yourself and creating shame, like, oh, this should be different for me. It's like, oh, like why waste that time? It's shame when you could just be like, this is who I am and how I do things. Can I just work with this and then like plan things and just you've talked in the past about like making to-do lists and you know breaking things down into small steps and that so much of that is like leaning into you on a metal way, like acceptance of yourself and your situation and the things you're doing rather than like, how do I make this different? How do I do this a different way and be someone else I'm not or you know, try to fit a standard that doesn't fit me. Like, you're just, you seem to be very attuned to just acceptance and sharing other people versus shaming. So thank you for that. And I just really see how that applies to not just your science, but the way you speak to the world, which finally leads me to, oh my gosh. This whole other part, I mean, the reason that we've met and the reason that a lot of people know you beyond, you know, your papers and your research itself, you started, I mean the way I see it, you started a science communication, not just science communication, but also just advocacy and awareness and you know, a platform to normalize the human experience of being someone who's a researcher and the full spectrum of your humaneness in that process. So how the hell did that start and when did it start and like, ever, all the things you want to share because it's amazing. Yeah, it was quite a surprise to me. I didn't really expect. to actually gain any hovers if I'm going to be quite honest. Basically, while I was doing my PhD, I was a biochemistry TA. I was the TA for the course for five years. And at the end of those five years, because my PhD was seven, right? So I handed off the TA position to a new PhD student, which I'm friends with, that came into the program that liked biochemistry. So I was like, here you go, I started lecturing in the course instead, but I missed drawing. Because like during my tutoring sessions, I was known for this at school. I would draw the concept out on the board. So like, you'd come in for the TCA cycle and I'd draw the bits of that for amino acids, synthesis, or degradation, I'd, you know, draw the bits, any of the stuff. And I missed that. And I was like, I really liked that. I like explaining things in a way that makes people have that like light bulb moment. And I wanted to continue with that. So I really started the platform, figuring that I would, you know, draw concepts and put posts up explaining any concept that kind of came into my brain that I wanted to explain that week, that day, that month, because I'm kind of spontaneous. You can't really hold me down too well. I don't stay on the track very easily. I'm like, oh, I want to post about this today. I'm very spontaneous, but that's really how my platform started. I just wanted to outlet for drawing something that's truly bringing it in that way, at least like two major parts of yourself together. And I think you tell me if you agree with this assessment of your platform, but of course, a key part of it is the science communication, is the art, is the way that you distill down concepts into really accessible ways, which by the way, like I found you when I was in the beginning of my master's program in neuroscience, like what the fuck is even happening, because like I had pivoted from psychology, had only taken one neuroscience class, and like the amount that your work helped me understand what I was learning in class, like it just helped me feel more comfortable with it and took away a lot of that fear and that freezing of like, uh, I'm too stupid. I can't do this like because it was such like a palatable, accessible way of, you know, taking it in from a human who's just so good at communicating. That was beautiful and great. But my assessment of your platform beyond that is you also share so much of yourself as a person, you share about your experiences, your humanness, the parts of your life that are not directly related to research, but nonetheless they come together in terms of like managing different parts of your life, talking of course about your human experience, like so much of why I had questions to ask you about your mental health and your balance and life is because you talk about it and you normalize it. So what was it like to start sharing more of yourself on the platform and what was kind of, was it a natural progression? Did you make a concerted effort to do so? And I asked this because I think we're in a shift in a slow but sure shift in research in academia where there's some people who are starting to come out of the closet of being a real human being and not just being a lab rat all the time. So, so how, so how, what, you know, inspired you to kind of be at the helm of sharing yourself in that way? So it wasn't really a conscious decision at first, I guess, to start sharing more intimate details about like what I'm doing at the moment or like what I'm eating for lunch or like, you know, working out in the morning or in my cats or, you know, I was definitely just going to be a science platform in the beginning, but I was just like, I am the science, like I'm the science platform, like I'm drawing it like it's like why, like how can I explain to people why I decided to post about this random thing today? Oh, it's because I'm weird and I just like spontaneous stuff and I just didn't want to separate myself from my creativity anymore. It kind of felt like that. I'm just like I am the creativity. Here you go. Whatever you get is what you get because like I that is just me. So like it just started becoming a thing. It started merging together at once and it was kind of weird because like obviously all my friends watch it all of my like people at school. They know it like I have a platform and stuff like that. So that was weird in the beginning because I was like this is a little awkward, but I just ignored it because do I care what people think of me at this point? Not particularly because I am what I am. That's developed over time. So it's wasn't planned, but it is what it is like it. I am you're not the only one who likes it so clearly and I think it's your point of how quickly it grew and kind of where you are now and all the ways that you're all the places you're going. Like it clearly resonates with people and I guess I want to highlight that you are the magic of the platform. Yeah, the education's great. The science is awesome. But like what keeps someone there versus like looking at any other figure? It's you. It's the person behind all of the work. And so I just I love that for you and I'm so grateful that you are someone just forging a path forward for people like me to feel more comfortable to be my full human self. So thank you so much for that. And you kind of touched on this, but I'm just so curious because it's so uncomfortable for me to like in being fully in academia, being around, you know, all these professionals, all these people were supposed to put on pedestals and like, you know, all of your peers and stuff. Like do you like does this work come forth in front of them? Does anyone have strange opinions about it? Like even though you don't care. Like, or is it received generally well? Like because I know sometimes science communication from the people that are really, you know, old, like they find it, you know, they have like opinion. Like I don't know. I guess I guess what I'm getting at is like there's sometimes this almost elitant and I'm saying it not you. There's this elitist kind of way that like no research needs to stay amongst researchers like people can't understand it unless their experts are there in this field or they're in school. Like it has to, you know, there's no way to distill down a concept while keeping its accuracy and you clearly do that like and show them that that's wrong. So like how is that met by people like in the most traditional sense of the field for you? So I mean the it's not really negative but like you said, like the older generations who have been here don't really understand it because it's like a social media platform. You know what I mean? They don't understand like why you would even have like something to talk about. But my PI has kind of embraced it with his kind of cool. He tells people that I have a platform now. He tells people to go look at it like we have a new student coming in October and he told her to go look at my platform to see like about the techniques that we do because I will have electrophysiology stuff on it. He showed my electrophysiology video to the orientation class from last summer. So he has pretty embraced it which is kind of cool. And it's generally like people like what I do. We don't really talk about it that much at school I have to say. Is that really brought up that much? Sometimes I'll run into people and they'll be like, oh I saw this on your story or it's something like that or I'll have people from school content like my stories and it was me like lessons and stuff. Definitely isn't really talked about my to school. I kind of just do my thing and I think everyone just accepts it the way it is. I don't really know how much of the older faculty actually know about it because like I said I don't know if they have social media. But it's generally widely accepted. And not much negativity. I love that. And it's so I mean I met your PI at SFN so I have the image of him in my head and the him talking about your science communication just brings me so much joy and giving examples of your videos and the pride in that. And also just imagining people coming up to you so like, oh I really like the way you crack your eggs in the morning. No really? People are like yes the egg cracking. I've never been able to replicate because I am not or I am not talented. I would do either hand left hand right hand we're good. No, oh my I can't even do it by dominant hand. Okay another example of how talented you are. But no that brings me a lot of joy and just really I feel like empowers so many people who have come across you and your work to feel like they can express themselves in their own way like me talking for hours and hours on the podcast. Obviously it's not drawing but it's my version of expressing and bringing parts together and I really really love that and appreciate that. And in line with kind of where you like where you we talked about where you've been and all the parts of your academic journey so far and parts of your life that have fended to that. So now for those who don't know you have defended you have graduated you are Dr. Liz and you so can you tell us more about where you are right now and of course we can't ever predict the future but what kind of division for your journey as a scientist a science communicator and human overall. So for like job things we can talk about that first. So I'm done with my PhD I finished all of that and I am currently working as a postdoc in the lab that we did back to each the end. I kind of just rolled like right into that and the reason that I did that is because my ultimate goal right now as it is is to move into an industry position. So I'm looking for a scientist positions in industry in neuroscience hopefully a neurodegenerative disease position but I'm hoping hoping for at least like a stepping stone I can get in and then jump into a more desirable position maybe but that's the plan for that for now. The whole like decision for academia and industry in my brain is kind of a war because I'm extremely creative. And I like the flexibility that academia gives you to be creative. But I want to buy a house. I want to live comfortably and I have to worry about paycheck to paycheck. And unfortunately academia is not going to give that to you really anymore. And there's not that many positions open. You have to scrabble to be an associate or assistant professor because there's not a lot of room. And so I am going to take the industry route for that reason. I'm hoping I can find a company that will allow me to still be creative with research. I mean, you just spoke to so many things that people outside of academia might not know about in terms of just this really big discrepancy and struggle about like humane living, I mean work conditions for starters, living conditions, salaries that are, you know, livable, not just livable wages. I mean, we, I guess it's simple to say like we should have a livable wage, right? But honestly, beyond that, we should have a comfortable wage because of the amount of training and work that goes into what we do. Also, the importance of the work that we do and what that translates to for people that, you know, end up being able to bring in far more money for themselves. And again, I'm saying this, these are my views. But like, it's just it's so heartbreaking that like that's even a decision that you have to make of like, do I get to be the full scientist like in the creative like with the creative control I have or do I get to like live a normal life and have amounts of money to be safe and pay my bills like my gosh. It drives me absolutely crazy. Like I, because like obviously at the end of my people during the whole PhD, but towards the end, you get really tired of living off of zero dollars basically. And like, yeah, living in New York or basically anywhere in the country right now, a stipend of 30 K, which is 26 K after taxes is literally zero dollars and probably negative dollars at the end of your day. So that's disgusting because a PhD student does more work than for example, someone that's a research assistant in the lab and they get paid more, you know, while you're a PhD students that pisses me off. And so, okay, I have my PhD, I'm going to be full transparent. So I have my PhD. I made like 33 K after the raise after inflation, you know, last year, years ago, I forget. And now I'm lucky enough, I'm saying this ironically to make 60 K. And like, I'm just like, okay, so, but what like why, why does someone who has their PhD in academia make 60 K? And that's a good secondary because some people make 50 and that's pretty more normal. And but the sooner you go into industry, you make double that without even like a hesitation. So I'm like, so like why, why is there this discrepancy? You want people to discover new diseases, new how to treatments, how to things work, different mechanisms, but you're not going to pay them to do so and you're not going to allow people to live with all the inflation going on. And I'm kind of confusing. It's so confusing. And like, I just earned my master's. I'm starting a PhD, well knowing all this and it's such a battle in my head. But I say this because as a, like someone who was going to graduate with their master's, I was offered a few positions by industry companies that were paying like multiple six figures. As a mass, as someone with a master's degree, which I, yeah, I worked hard for it. Great. But like compared to a freaking PhD, the thing I'm about to probably go do, like it makes me sick. It makes me sick. And I know we're talking about money right now and it sounds like superficial, but it's actually not because it's literally how we live. And it speaks to a bigger point of like, you know, and someone might have the argument that like, oh, money isn't finite. Like, you know, the answer isn't like, if the answer is just we need more money. Like that's such a, you know, people think that's like a fantasy. But the reality of like academia and research and funding is that there's actually like a quite a large amount of money that's available. And to your point, there's other positions that are not somewhat student positions that could pay sometimes double of what we paid. Like I started going down the rabbit hole, looking down research assistant positions, technician positions, even, you know, master's level research scientists and not to mention just some of the administrative positions that exists. Like my husband was looking at like basically people who fix computers like in labs, they make three times the amount of a PhD student. It's freaking wild. Anyway, I mean, my as my own personal conclusion has come to I think they hugely leverage the fact that PhD positions, especially in neuroscience are so competitive that people are like, oh, I'm so grateful. I was even accepted that therefore I will happily take that 30 K and just live off of nothing because, oh my gosh, like at least I had the privilege of even getting accepted into this like there's such a competition for the positions. And so they hugely leverage that to their benefit. And it's just it's really, really sad. And as someone who literally had the opportunity to go have a decent like a pretty well decent living with my masters or go into a PhD for the sole purpose of I want to engage my creativity and academic interest and become, you know, closer to someone who like feels like a scientist. It feels like they've made a contribution to the field like that's solely why I'm going into a PhD. So yeah, it's really hard breaking, especially with you of health concerns and whatever I'll stop my rant now. But like it's just like you don't get to talk about this so publicly so often. So thank you for valid. It's all valid. And with that like how do you feel like your because you're currently in a postdoc, you just talked about the fact that you ironically just still make so little compared to what you deserve in my words at least. What is the is the function of the postdoc to be able to get you to an industry position that's like a good starting point and kind of have some time to figure out where you fit in industry. Yeah, so the positions that I'm applying for a lot of them require, you know, X numbers of experience after your PhD. And a lot of the people that are applying that I'm going against already have postdocs done. So I need to at least obtain a little bit of experience and hopefully get into an industry industry position as soon as possible because they count industry experience. Obviously much higher than academic experience. So the sooner I can get in the sooner I can, you know, jump around to a position that I would really, really enjoy being at. But it's quite unfortunate. And how does all of your work in science communication and creativity and all that you create like how does that fit into penning your vision for moving forward professionally and academically. Yeah. So obviously in academia and then the lab that I'm in because I have like permission, etc. I can share more of like, you know, a brain or like the different techniques that I'm doing or like videos of myself, myself performing experiments, etc. I know I do not believe that would be possible in an industry setting, which is fine. But I have secret plans. But so basically like, I would probably transition into more of my creative side, drawing concepts, explaining new papers that come out, you know, having discussions about new research, new ideas, etc. But I also really want to get my own microscope, like a personal microscope for at home and kind of jump back into my like environmental creative side for like outdoor stuff and like, you know, maybe do some cool stuff with like different leaves or different flowers and like high resolution. And do like kind of some cool stuff with that. So that's kind of a pipe dream. Hopefully one day that'll be a thing. Well, you're about to get married and registries are a thing and you know, a lot of people put like plates and fancy cups and like $300, like mats and stuff on there. And that's valid and cool of like that's your thing. But also what if you put a microscope on there and people have like a crowdfunding situation. I don't actually know how much they cost, but I know there's someone there who would get it for you. I don't know who, but I, I, I, I think that's closer than you think is all I will say. But, but no, that sounds amazing. I like your thinking. I like it. And I just really, I'm really happy personally to hear that like the creativity and the education of concepts isn't going away because I think that just at the end of the day, like is where you started and just has that. I mean, that's not dependent on anyone, but you and your brain and your brain cells making pictures of brain cells. So I, I really love that. And do you feel like there's other parts of yourself that are waiting to be expressed like in different professional or personal ways or do you kind of feel like fulfilled in the way you share yourself right now. No, I'm definitely, you know, my brain's like I get bored easy and I always have like a random ideas. They're like during my PhD, I was too tired really to try to explore like new things like honestly the concept of sitting on my computer in my apartment is toxic still to me. I don't do it. If I can help it because I have like slight PTSD with that or not PTSD, but you know what I mean, just like I'm an aversion to it. And so, but that's slowly going away. And so when I'm able to actually get to the point where I can devil use my PC for things that I want to do and so my PhD dissertation. I would like to work on more of kind of digital platforms and digital like books, for example, like I want to actually like put my work. in a book. I want to actually illustrate in a constructive package instead of like my sporadic brain. So like I want to actually force myself to like I'm going to finish this one topic and put like this little digestible like book with all these pictures up for people to buy and stuff like that. So like I kind of want to do something like that. So I'm going to take it upon myself to just battery you about it every so often because that is so needed and so amazing and like maybe just like goes it on the beach and draw. I don't know like that just sounds like that's we need that as a neuroscience student and researcher like I need that. So I love that so much and I that actually reminds me of something else I wanted to ask you about in terms of you are so you really share your movement journey and I don't want to call it exercise necessarily because you might not resonate with it always being exercise but you're just really active and it's not just in a oh my gosh like I love being active all the time way but like you in a loving way force yourself to be active for your health for your well-being and I know I'm someone and I know there are other people who really struggle with like overriding that resistance and you know it's so easy to fall into oh my god I'm so busy I'm so tired I just need that extra half hour of sleep or like oh that's the last thing I want to do like what has that been like for you why do you prioritize movement and how do you navigate the resistance that comes with it? Yeah so there's quite a resistance for that sometimes I think we all feel that we don't really want to put on the workout clothes necessarily I don't want to put in my shoes putting on shoes doesn't happen sometimes which is why I do indoor workouts because the shoes are not happening that so I definitely have prioritized working on the morning versus at night because when you are a biomedical PhD student you're in the lab for unknown amounts of time so you don't get home random like you get home a random hour you don't know when you're gonna be home so working out a night it's not gonna happen it's just really not unless you can actually like okay your experiments are short you know you're gonna be done at a certain time of the day me then never happened so woke I had to do it in the morning for sure but um it definitely wasn't always something I wanted to do I started out short like I would just like go for like 10 minute walks and then I became 20 minute walks and then 30 minute walks and I listened to podcasts I would listen to music I listened to double books I have audible I love audible how do you books are fantastic or if you don't want to pay for it you can do the lady because if you have a library subscription um and or I just talk on the phone like anything that would distract me to forget that I was actually doing what I was doing you know and it became a habit after a while so it's like okay like I feel better after I did that and they were starting to be an association like obviously there's adrenaline happening when you're working out and like that gave me more of a boost than coffee did sometimes so I was like I like that I need that I still have to do my day why don't I do my day with a little bit of adrenaline on top you know what I mean to start my day out and so um when I don't want to go outside and go for a walk I do indoor workouts I do beach body I have the beach body app I turn it on I do a program I might be a random program every day because I can't decide sometimes sometimes I stick to programs it is what it is because I don't want to put my shoes on so I'm put my shoes on put my yoga mat out and I hang out with moose and I do a indoor workout moose is Dr. Liz's cat for anyone who doesn't know so precious but I the reason I ask you these questions will number one it's selfish because like on a very practical level like I'm utilizing all the ways that you share yourself and survive to like have a guideline framework for how the hell I'm gonna survive this thing I'm about to start but on a higher level like all of the ways that you commit yourself to just taking care of yourself as a person and there's no perfect way to do it but the fact that you're so committed to taking care of yourself is such an example of what's possible to put ourselves first and to see ourselves as a full human being and just really nurture ourselves and our creativity our health our motivation and you're just you're amazing you're amazing and you show people especially in this intensive field where we're really encouraged not to think of anything but the work we're doing and to you know bring in funding and do experiments and bring in and and be productive that productivity can not just encompass like the work we do but the person we are and how we I mean ultimately I guess it even makes us more productive but irrespective of that like you just you're you're so incredible in the way that you are are also just again so open about not being perfect and the ways that things come up and how you keep going forth and so I am just so grateful for all your work and I have some questions that I want to ask you as our like I call them rapid fire questions because that's a podcast tape but I am not a rapid person so you're about to hear my version of rapid fire questions which are number one what are three surprising things that people would not know or readily guess about you experiences traits interests anything that comes to mind um anything is I'm an only child and no one guesses that like it's always a surprise to everyone who I tell I don't know why and a giant nerd which I'm explaining more on my platform now which I love Pokemon I don't even care it's fantastic I play Pokemon cards the video game I do all of it I have plushies all of it and then third thing I I don't know I'll do something random I'm allergic to poppy seeds so I don't really know if I can actually have morphine or not because you make opioids from poppy plants oh my god I worked on morphine but I don't even know if I can have it did you ever have a reaction being near it or anything no I mean I had gloves on the whole time obviously not so I don't know but if you if you like toast and everything bagel in the room I get like all itchy and my throat feels weird and so I thought like that so yeah that is so unfortunate everything bagels are amazing but no that's so interesting I know my next question is what are your top guiding values in life guiding values um honestly just be yourself and don't care what other people think about you um do what you want but like be conscious of what you're doing and third I don't know I can't come up with that there's one thing to bet about the other you've got two really strong values I love that what came first the chicken or the egg and there's no right answer but I love to know how people answer this um definitely the chicken because doctor biologist because there was a chicken that spontaneously got pregnant and had an egg without another chicken being present because that can happen sometimes I will take it we're not chicken rooster rooster you know what I mean that's the right answer that's right answer what does rest look like to you rest um basically being able to zone out and been read a book been read a book is very refreshing for me um fantasy books I read all fantasy books obviously um or drawing or just you know being able to hang out with people that you enjoy being around hmm I need to get back into reading I just I'm always like oh I have to read so much for school and for work like reading is like it's just my a version is still like having to read information but like there's so many different ways of reading and you you remind me of audible being a thing so I love podcasts it's just like a podcast version of book but I love that and I love how much you value rest and sharing that with other people too what is one thing you wish you could tell your younger self it's gonna be at any age I'm jumpy afraid to ask all the crazy questions that are coming up in your head because I held them back a lot when I was younger I was taken as a shy person but got rid of them not I'm not shy anymore I just ask whatever I'm thinking and then this last question I'm actually going to make it two questions because there's more specific one and a more broad one so what is one thing you wish everyone who is a PhD student or a student researcher knew or could hear when you're beginning you need to choose your dissertation lab based on the PI doesn't matter what the research is it's based on the PI because as we talked about earlier you are basically marrying this person not by documentation but basically marrying this person and your relationship with them and how they guide themselves and they guide you will make all the difference in your PhD and what would you look out for in a PI as someone who's about to go do exactly that so red flags for PIs is someone who doesn't respect your personal boundaries in terms of your work schedule if they some PIs will expect you to be in regular hours from like nine to five some are like show up whenever you want some are the type that expect you to be around at all times and are like oh I must have missed you you weren't in the lab kind of deal and that makes you feel like so you need to pick a PI that you know aligns with your schedule Another red flag is how many publications they're putting out? Too many publications could be a red flag, so unless you want to burn yourself into the ground. So looking how many they put out per year is something that you should judge on how you work, because if you're a fast-paced, perfect, if you're not fast-paced, maybe pick a middle ground, publication, type of cycle. And last thing is how long was the PhD of those that came before you? Because if it was short-long, that can tell you a lot about your experience and what you can expect. - I especially love what you said with the publications, 'cause I think we're taught to look for the more publications and the more impact publications, the better the lab it is. And like you said, with your values of rest and balance, like that may not be the thing that you need. So thank you so much for, again, normalizing that and just being a voice too. Different ways of being, while still being someone who loves science and does research. And then my final question is more of a broad question just for everyone in a more meta way. What is one thing you wish everyone knew or could hear about life? - I guess so when we're talking about you being like an individual, like everyone, there's all this comparison. It just brings me back to like thinking about everyone compares themselves to everybody else. But the beauty of it is that you are you and no one else can be you and you're not like a duplicate of someone, you're not your parents, you're not like a duplicate of another PhD student that's in the lab or the someone that came before you, you're not filling a position, you're someone and you're making your own place. Like no one's had your position before, no one's been you before. So it's all right if you're not gonna provide the same thing as someone else does. Like you're gonna provide what you can and that's what's fantastic because it's your perspective, your creativity and whatever it makes individually you, that's what you bring into the table. - What a way to cap off an episode of you exemplifying all that you just said. You are truly someone who leans into all of the beautiful ways that you show up in the world. And you, there is no one like you. Dr. Liz, thank you for being exactly who you are and being such a uplifting, bright human being to not only people who do the kind of research you do, but to people in general who are coming into themselves and want to learn more and just so grateful for your friendship, I'm so grateful for your wisdom. I can't wait to have you back to talk more about the papers that are coming out and research and all of the cool things you're about to do. And just thank you for your time and sharing yourself with everybody here. - And thank you so much for having me. It was so good to see you and chat and I cannot wait to see you at SFN this year if we both ended up there at the same time. - Absolutely. - Y'all, I am just so, so grateful to Dr. Barry for coming on the show. And as you obviously heard, if you are at this part, she is just so full of such wisdom in how to navigate life and boundaries and be passionate about our work and also pursue a path that's aligned with us in terms of our values and our health, our wellbeing and also just modeling like reality and not a perfect way of doing things but still just working endlessly to continue to fight for ourselves and advocate for ourselves and get to a place of more balance. And she is just so brilliant in, of course, her research, but also just all the amazing ways she brings forth her values, her creativity, her way of viewing and showing up in the world and just like bringing that all together. And that's what we're all about here so clearly on this show. This show is about bringing together and integrating all the different parts of ourselves and just being the human we are and being it all at once. And Liz is just the absolute epitome of that and she's so kind and I just loved getting to learn from her. I know that y'all just got so much advice and real talk and just so much love from this beautiful human being. So I hope that you just loved this episode and if you did and if you are enjoying the show, then please just take five seconds while you're here right now to just go wherever you're listening to this podcast and hit the subscribe button. And that way you are the first to receive episodes as soon as they come out and it really, really supports me and being able to continue to grow and create the show. Also, if you could just take five more seconds to leave a quick five star rating in review and that seriously helps me in the show because it really allows other people to see that this space is a space that is providing consistent support and value and is a safe space for people to explore themselves just like the entire ethos of this episode. So if you could support me in all those ways, that would just mean the absolute world to me, especially as someone who is creating the show all by myself right now, every amount of support and every single one of you just is the reason I get to do this and thank you so much for supporting me. Also, you could take just a few more seconds to send this episode to anybody who you think would be supported by it. Just either send it to them via text or repost it on your social media. I always have clips and ways to easily support the show and repost by sharing on your social media. Seriously, every single one of those shares counts and brings more people into this community so that we can co-creating grow together. So thank you again so much for spending your time with me here and listening to this episode with the amazing Dr. Liz and I can't wait to see you again next week for another episode of Chat with Uba. [BLANK_AUDIO]