How to Succeed with Process Mining at a High Tech Company? With Pranay Jaiswal, Customer Transformation Director at Celonis, ex-Dell Head of Process Mining

Do you know what time it is? Time for Taco. No, it's time for another episode of the "Mining Your Business" podcast, a show all about process-mining data science and advanced business analytics. How are you doing today, Jacob? I'm doing quite nice, even without a Taco. I'm sorry about that. Prennage as well, Director of Customer Transformation at Salonus, and former Director of Process Mining at Dell joins us on the podcast today to talk about how process-mining affects the high-tech sector, what customer transformation looks like, and how the US market is adopting a process-mining approach. Let's get into it. Hello, everyone. We are excited that you tuned in back into yet another episode of the one and only podcast about process-mining mining or business. We have brought you a very special guest today, someone who knows process-mining from a perspective of an industry expert, but also from the process-mining vendor itself. In today's episode, we bring you Prennage as well, Director of Customer Transformation at Salonus, and a former Director of Process Mining and Data Science and Dell Technologies. Prennage, welcome to our show. Thanks, Jacob. It's really a pleasure to have you here, and you know, you've been for quite a while with Dell Technologies last year, you switched jerseys for the Salonus team. What motivated you to make the jump, and in general, could you just tell us a bit about your own journey and how did it all let you into Salonus? Yeah, yeah. First of all, thank you for having me here. It's a real pleasure to be here and talking to both of you guys, so thank you so much. Well, if you think about it, I've spent most of my life in high-tech. In a previous role, I was driving the process-mining ecosystem for Dell Technologies, and I was able to drive and to end process visualization and transformation. But when I started this journey, it's amazing to see a product. And the people around Salonus and the potential this industry has, and they had an opportunity for me to have a wider impact in the high-tech industry, and that's where I am right now. In my current role as a customer transformation advisor, my job is to advise high-tech industry and supply chain. I don't know the best practice of COE or change management or operating model. And so we are the advisors for our customers, including use cases, including everything. So, yeah, we also do COE as a service in case if there is a desire for our customers to have us own end to end. And that was an amazing offer opportunity for me to pass. So could you be somehow a little more specific how, for example, your day-to-day looks like, because when I look at your title and your role, it's this director of customer transformation and you're mentioning that you're helping these high-tech companies with adoption, but also giving them some use cases. How would it look like for you when a customer approaches Salonus and they are interested in process-mining in general, and you jump in with your role? How do you actually do there? So I mean, I wear multiple hats, right? I mean, from selling a concept of process-mining where people have never heard about process-mining before, we have a pretty strong sales team. So a lot of times I don't have to do that work, but sometimes I come in as a sidekick to them and just help them take them through what good looks like, like show them the art of the possible, or what you can be once you adopt process-mining or EMS or Salonus ecosystem. What are the challenges it can overcome, right, from multiple places, and that's one thing I've been, and that's my personal passion, is how do we drive transformation across your company? It's not about a few core process here and there or SAP, it's not about that. Its mining is much, much bigger than just a few or SAPs or articles of the world. It is literally, it can transform your business. I'm very passionate about digital to it and creating a digital form of your business process. So sometimes I come in and up level the conversation a bit and then show them the art of the possible with process-mining or EMS, right? I mean, we have been doing process-mining for the last several years, and EMS is very evolving. How do we really execute? How do we give you the tools and buzz and whistles to really take the right decisions at right time? And obviously you can do that once you provide process-mining capabilities across your core businesses, and everything is great. You can put the tools in, you can put the people in. That's where the COE concept comes in. So I start from there and then my job is to make sure that we have a well-functioning COE with the right skill set of the people, with the right operating model, that they can work across business and IT and other stakeholders to really drive value. So my day-to-day job is to coach our customers on what COE looks like. How should the COE run? What are the skills that you need in every COE? Just for the listeners who might not be well-known with the abbreviation COE stands for Central Excellence, correct? It is Central Excellence. It is a team that is the glue between your business and IT and everyone, who is in charge of enabling process-mining and driving value from it, or working with the business and saying, "Guys, here's the product, now go use it." Or these are the process opportunities we have seen from process-mining. We would probably need to tweak here and there. So this team usually compromises of your technical guys, your product management, your solution architects, or sometimes customer value managers, where they look at the value and then they work with the business and figuring out, "Okay, how should you change your process?" Now, you said some very interesting things that I would really like to pick up and probably the first one I would like to mention and ask you. You said that sometimes you approach these people and be at a sea level, be at a lower level of a middle management who is deciding whether or not to even adopt process-mining in the first place, and you're going in front of these people and telling them you said that sometimes they don't even know what process-mining is and that you have to educate them to begin with, right? Was there something? How do you do that, I wonder. How do you go in front of someone and tell them what the process-mining is and why should they care? I mean, sometimes people think it's a dashboard, or it's just another cablo, not that there's anything wrong with a cablo, but it is much more than a dashboard, right? Sometimes, even though they think it is a process, you can stitch your process together, telling, showing them how it can transform your business. What are the specific use cases that their peers have done in the industry or showing them the value that our other customers have extracted from process-mining opens their eyes. And we have a pretty massive customer base, more than 1,000 customers, we have done more than 3,000 deployments, a ton of success stories out there that they can take inspiration from. All those things, plus we have an amazing solution engineering team that really takes, sometimes takes their data and show them real time, okay, this is how your process runs today. That opens their eyes. Do a demo, show them the inefficiencies in their own process. That gets them say, okay, where do I sign? Now, it seems to me that you're very, very passionate about process-mining. And generally, you also said you speak to people who generally don't have a clue what process-mining is and you're kind of leading them into it. I kind of want to go back to when you were that person who had no idea about process-mining and kind of see what was your first reaction to seeing process-mining in action. What was your first kind of idea about what it could be? So I have always been more of a process guy all my life, right? I remember a first job, not really a first job, but probably a second job in my life, where I was tasked to go to process mapping, back in the days, we knew process mapping, right? So we had a bunch of consultants, we hired a bunch of consultants from an external forum. We went on this journey of mapping our process, a very big task of, okay, let's just map our old sales process and supply it in process and services process. So we did that. We went six months on the road, I'm not kidding, six months on the road, meeting a bunch of executives, people on the ground, you just name it, we said in the rooms all day long, 15 hours, we used post-its and sticky tapes, you just name it, we would do all that fun stuff with our consulting partners. And we mined all that data in Visio, we put that in one of the BPM and tools, and you know what? I mean, we had some good revelations, of course, but that data went stale, right? After six months, technology changes, people changes, business changes. But no one will go back and say, oh, let me just redo that whole thing. So I've always had that history of the good side of process mapping. And then the bad side of process mapping, which is not really accurate. So again, when I first saw this, I think it was one of those conferences, I don't remember which conference it was, but we ran in Tucson as sometimes, we brought them in, we did a very quick POC, and when we saw, like literally, the room was like, guys is amazing. This is like showing us so many different areas of opportunities that we were not aware of. So and that included a lot of our senior executives, including myself and my bosses in the room. So I mean, we knew that this is really awesome. And honestly, this was not thought by the business, the del digital team drew Srona's into Dell and our CDO was very visionary. She was like, let me just do this for all of Dell. As we love this capability, we love the technology behind process mining. And yes, and the rest is history where now Dell has a pretty solid expanse of process mining and brain-size capability across the ecosystem. Now staying a bit high level and talking about tech or high tech in general, which I think is very interesting because when I think of tech companies, I think of like these, let's, I don't even want to call them startups, but like these startups from the early 2000s or early 90s when they were coming up with new technologies and you were thinking of them, how can these guys have problems with processes? Because let's be quite clear, our standard customers are usually these older European companies have been working for tens or dozens of years already. And you can kind of expect that there can be some hiccups on their processes. What kind of problems are high tech companies even worried about when it comes to their business processes? Are there some standard set of use cases that you're looking into? So I mean, when I think about any company, right? So let's take an example of a high tech manufacturing company and any random company. You would have a front office, right? You would have a sales force, you would have marketing people, then you would have some sort of a quoting mechanism or an order-taking mechanism. Then you would have a supply chain that ships that product or services. Then you would have some sort of payment-taking mechanism to take cash from our customers. You would run in voices, you would have an AR and AP process in your business. Then you would have some sort of a customer service so that in case anything goes wrong, you can support your customer and take care of them. So all these processes are fairly standard, not really standard, but it exists in a lot of these high tech manufacturing companies or any companies to do that matter, right? So that's where someone comes in and the technology of process mining can be very, very applicable to really understand what is going on in that process. So when you talk about your, let's say, supply chain processes, we can bring process mining in to really show you the inefficiencies in your process. How are you procuring parts? How are you sending it through logistics? Are there delays between point A and point B? So that is fairly typical. You can think of another example within your customer service where the customers are reaching out to you, how quickly are you resolving their issues? Or do you have issues of multi-hop where you are just changing that, having that ticket change hands from one place to another place? How many times that that hop happens and why is it happening? How what can we do to reduce that? How can we reduce the cycle time so that we can resolve their issues much faster? You can do the exact same thing on the sales funnel, right? So how quickly are you, what is the sales cycle time looks like for your ecosystem? What are the conversions from sales perspective? So all these use cases are fairly genetic in any high-tech company. And I've not even talked about the back office where we play very strong, right? We have ARNAP process, we can do working capital optimization, we can look at discounts. So all those use cases are very standard in any industry and that's where that's the power of slowness and process planning is that it can be very, very applicable to any industry that you're going to. I was thinking, let's get a little specific. So we don't need really to need any names or something, but is there some of your favorite use cases that you would bring to those high-tech companies and tell them like, let's say your competitors achieve this and that with process mining, let's focus on that. And what would be this use case and why would you choose it first? And so one of the use cases that I've seen pop-up off lead these days is around sales. Now this is not where we typically play in slowness, right? I mean, we have very strong and back office, very strong and supply chain, IDSM processes. But this use case has a ton of traction right now, which a lot of our high-tech manufacturing companies are focused on sales enablement and just looking at sales 360, where the sales reps are spending time. How can we improve their productivity? And I've seen it multiple cases where we deploy process mining in their opportunity management life cycle, where it can just show amazing things around, okay, how much time are they spending between cycles and what other born-to-win rates looks like, because that's probably not a good practice to have an opportunity comes in and just suddenly go from the opportunity to win within a few hours. So some of the bad practices that happens there, but those are my favorites where it can have tremendous impact to your sales force. And when you make your sales force, much more productive, you're driving your top line. And that's what my personal favorite use cases are around sales force and cycle time. And really making their sales life better so that they can focus more time to the customers and drive more revenue. Now with your experience in the high-tech industry, do you find yourself seeing the same types of use cases and issues, all the customers that you have, or is it more that every single customer has a wide array of different topics that so every single client has widely different problems that they're facing, or is it more like they're all fairly similar in dealing with the same stuff? That's a good question. I mean, you would see no answers. Like I said, my previous answer, they are fairly set of standard use cases that exist everywhere. Right? Let's say working capital optimization, that is one of the use cases that exists in every industry. And then you have your customer services, which exist somewhere everywhere. There is a lot of supply chain processes that we focus on. So that's where Salonis is moving towards is more verticalization. And you would start seeing that more and more where we are verticalizing our own sales force to stay very focused on specific verticals. It could be technology, it could be public sector, it could be retail, it could be finance, where we have focused much more focused on that industry's use case. Although there are some use cases that are that cuts across all industry, but you always see some nuances. Now I'm going to say, while the use cases are similar, you would see different priorities for different companies. Right. So for instance, if you go work in a retail manufacturer, they totally care about the supply chain, whereas if you are working with a service provider, they care about one of the services part of it. So it depends on which company you work for and which company you are advising. They have different priorities and based on that, we provide tailored service to them. I will definitely go through a little checklist like based on your own experience as being in our heading and spearheading the implementation and also now basically being from the vendor side. So I will get to that a little later. For now, I also wanted to pick up on something you said that you mentioned at the beginning that you are somehow very passionate about this digital twin topic and creating a digital twin of an organization in terms of process mining. And I think this might be actually for the first time we mentioned this term in our podcast unless I'm mistaken. We might have discussed it a little bit with Marlon Dumay, one of the previous episodes, but could you tell our listeners what the digital twin is and why should an organization care about creating one? Yeah. Well, I think we should talk about it. This can literally be its own podcast, but digital twin is very passionate about the subject, is how do we have so every organization like I said before has multiple different process. They have different value chains. We have a turn of data. I think the last time I was reading, we had like 60 or so petabytes of data or a set of bytes, I don't know, I just ran out of terms these days like data and data exists in silos. So you have sales data, you have order data, you have back office supply chain, everything is different and they're all trying to do similar things. They're all trying to analyze data, drive data science and become more productive on their own and in the magic happens when you provide process mining capability on it. You can really look at the process and then when you connect them end to end, it becomes a digital function or a digital copy of your business process. And once you connect those things together and then Saranas has a capability called multi event model, we have signal link where you can connect all these things together. That gives you and I'm literally an x array into your process which is connected end to end. Now you know that okay, if I am getting this opportunity from my sales funnel right here, can I track this end to end and see how it moves through my sales channel and how it goes through my coding and ordering process and when I'm shipping this product out, was it delivered or not and then did I get that cash from the same customer, did I pay that customer or not. So you have now an ability to track this end to end and once you have that digital free piece together, you have more economy of scale as you go through a data science experience. You can put your data scientists on it and then you can become more predictive. Whereas in the past, you had those siloed boxes and everyone was trying to achieve the same goal but in their own silos, which was hard to break. So this is liberating that experience and Saranas is trying to create that digital twin. Not really that's the only motive but that's one of the side effect of Saranas is that you get a digital twin. You can use our own action flows to automate your process or we have an ML workbench which is very fairly strong that you can bring your data scientists in and then become more predictive and drive your AI ML use cases on it. What are some of the biggest challenges you face because when I hear petabytes of data and putting that all into process mining and from all parts of the business, from what used to be siloes, what are the biggest challenges in succeeding in displaying an end to end process in this way, creating this digital twin? So I think I'm going to take this question slightly differently. I think the challenges are multiple, you have, there are some obviously technology challenges where you have to have a scalable platform to handle that kind of flow. You need to have a scalable architecture, scalable vendor who can actually make this happen because you're talking about billions of roles, right? So there's a technology aspect to it. Then there is a people aspect which is if not one of the important but the most important thing is like you have, let's say we did all that work. Let's say we made a digital twin, it's amazing. It's useless if you don't use it. You need to have people to align with the strategic goal, like always talk about why should we do this? How do we have an exec sponsor who has a very specific mission and goal to make things happen? So when I think about this question, I think about reasons why we don't get value from an initiative. And one of the biggest things by far that our customer tells us is, having or not having an exec sponsor really makes or break the situation, have to have an exec sponsor to be successful, have to have a specific goal, a key strategic goal that you're trying to hit. And then obviously there is a technology aspect which I think we can get through it, but I think a lot of times people forget the people aspect and the change management aspect, which is very important, bringing people together, driving them towards the same cause because you can have an amazing car, but if it's worthless, if it doesn't run, or if no one wants to drive it, right? So that's where I think the biggest challenge is not the technology. I think we have smart engineers who can figure things out. We can put more platforms, we can dedupe things, but it's a people that I think I've seen so many times where we've done all the hard work, but no one is using it or they think it is a dashboard. So that is a tough challenge in my opinion. Yeah, I think this is one of the repeating themes of our podcast and that we keep bringing back and back. Let's also hear your note on this. So let's say that you are this organization who already spend the effort, time and money on creating a nice and up and running process mining platform and yet the people are not using it. And I've been with the customers like that. I think all of us have, what do you do? Well, you started with best practices, right? So that's why that's where I come in and because I've seen that story multiple times, I know what not to do. So we say, guys, former CEO, you need that. Find an ex-exponsor. You find a strategic goal that everyone is aligned to, then you train the people, enable them to use the right tools and then show them the way. I think if you do, I think if you do these things, you'd be successful. You need to have a champion. You need to have someone who can drive this at the ground level with the technical team, with the business teams and having a COA, you have a governance model in place where you are meeting with the ex-exponsors on a weekly basis or not weekly monthly basis. And then your ground team, you're working with a core team on a weekly and daily basis like having that governance structure, a COE that drives change, an ex-exponsor who is aligned with the COE with a target in mind. These are three things, I would say, the critical things that will make, will drive value from any implementation. It's not just process mining, you just take any transformation effort, any digital transformation. You probably need these three things to be successful. Now, Pranay, about, I think it's a couple of months, I think it was the last year when there was this commercial in the US running around for a silliness that there is 10 million dollar stripped in your business and silliness can actually help you get it. Have you already been with a customer that actually got to this, let's say momentum or not real momentum, but to this threshold where they actually got this and how did they do that? So the last time I heard from Alex, I don't think we had to pay anything, like I think they always saw, they always saw some value in their trapped value, yes, yes, I think that's great. And it was before my time, I joined the company, but yes, I was literally in your shoes, I'm like, yeah, that's amazing. I'm seeing those ads from like Wall Street Generals to everywhere. But that's a crazy part of process mining, you always see those sharp values. No company runs at 100% efficiency. I think some sort of like 20 or 30% is where the maximum threshold heads and then when you enable execution management system, that's when you drive the open the floodgates and one of my, one of my customers, so I would not name name, but I love her theory around a hidden factories. She said, it is like a hidden factory, it never existed. Once you put Salon Salon in, you have all these crazy pool of people that you thought, oh, they're working on some either non-value added activity or you're wasting time, but now you certainly have this hidden factory that you never knew existed. Wow. That's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I love her, we've had some good times in the past, yes. Actually, another question I would have is very specific for a US market. And that would be, since you actually talk to all these high tech companies and I assume that most of them are almost exclusively, all of them are from the United States, how do they look at this emerging BI technology coming from Europe and it's not that long where process mining was still just a small thing, nobody really cared. Now it's really have a lot of momentum, a lot of traction, but it still seems to me as an observer from the outside of the US, this acceptance might be a little slower than in Europe just because of this geography that it's just coming there a little later than it started in Europe. How do you look at this? I mean, I, every day, and literally I was with this pretty massive retail giant yesterday, and there's the COE lead, he tells me, like, guys, am I? I think his feedback was, I guess a lot of sales itself, like that's literally his words, like, is it me or we all think there's a lot of sales itself, which again, I don't see that a lot from these customers, but you're right, the culture of process and process efficiencies. It's literally a German and European culture, it's very strong in the roots, and I have tremendous respect for that. Obviously, I've spent most of my life in process, that's why. But if you come to US, that culture is changing. I can see that culture of process is coming in because any time when you say, give me a tool and show me a value and I can make you run better, get you more money, save you more billions of dollars, people will say, yes, like, it is common sense. So over the last several decades, the United States had been the driver of innovation, like they were the ones who were like driving net new businesses, coming with these amazing ideas. So it was always the birth land of your innovation, not saying Europe is not. But if you look at all the high tech companies who were born in the US, they were out pretty much. But then you bring best of both the world, you bring the process and that culture from Europe, and then you merge it with the innovation that comes in US, and that becomes a magic, that becomes best of both the world, where you have innovation and at an efficiency, that's amazing. So I mean, the culture is changing. I can totally see that, the way we are growing in North America is tremendous, strong as itself is growing 100% year-to-year, over the last several years, and I can totally see the trend going forward. So yes, the culture is probably changing and for the good. Now, is that just the difference in culture? Is that one of the biggest differences between the US or do you see any other differences in maybe their adoption or the way they, in your line of work, helping them transform? Is there a difference that you see between these two markets? So I mean, it goes back to the people comment that I made, when you introduce a new tool, you need to make sure that sometimes you get pushed back from the customer, sometimes they think, oh yeah, what's the point in this? But you would not run into the same problem challenge in Germany, where they have a pretty straight culture of, okay, we need to be more efficient, but sometimes you get that in US. But again, if you find the right balance of, okay, show them the value, show them the reasons why we are doing this. How can it make their life easier? And that's one of my biggest one is, like, guys, I'm going to make your life easier. So like, show them the value and then they will change. And what about actually data privacy? Because I know this is a big thing in the EU, and also specifically Germany, that privacy and data protection and things like that are very, very big and not as much in the US. Do you see some sort of difference there or a, well, there are rules different, but I'm not going to say that the data privacy is not an issue in, or not a priority in the US. I think it is a priority everywhere. And Saras has pretty solid capabilities to secure data, transmit your data in a private fashion. So I think the priorities are aligned. We may have different rules within year-round GDPR regulations that may not exist in US. But if you look, talk about priority, I think it's one of the key elements. And every implementation I go in, that is one of the biggest thing is, okay, show me your privacy protocols, how secure you are, are you encrypting your stuff or not? Like, what is the TLA compliance? Or TLA compliance looks like so. VV, and I've personally went through a pretty massive checklist in my previous role. So I can tell you that is fairly one of the biggest thing on my mind whenever we pull in any new vendor is going through the checklist of things. Yeah. Right. Yeah, I can imagine this can be quite a headache for security officers that need to check all the compliance in the world. The ISOs are, yeah, it's a hell, let's be quite honest, but it is necessary for sure. With the growing needs of crypto, I don't know how we'll take the crypto payments, but yes, I think that's the next wave of payments is, okay, can I pay my bitcoins, I'm like, yeah, we'll see. So we do have some people reaching out to us when they hear that we have a process mining for the government. They suddenly made this connection, mining meets probably crypto. So guys, are you into this? Yeah. Or something? Ah, close enough. Yeah, also some gold mining and diamond mining. Yeah. Yeah. Also reach out occasionally. Anyhow, I also promised I would like to get a little checklist here, and since you were in both roles, you are now in the vendors role and you were also in Dell industry. Where you were actually spearheading the process mining initiative. I would like to now you to kind of think back and just put yourself back into the shoes of a manager who's actually deciding whether should you go for a process mining or not. And basically give you some give us and then the audience some kind of recommendations of of what things they should be even asking before they start with the implementation and start even considering process mining. Like from the moment they let's say think about it or hear about it for the first time until the moment they actually start running things. So what will be the first thing to do when you have an organization that is let's say high tech and in European ripe for process mining initiative? Yeah. I mean, it can be a genetic answer and I can see this is applicable for every implementation honestly is figured out why you need this like what is the value proposition? Why do you care about process mining? Have an exact sponsor. So let's let's get us and those sponsors could be your CIO. It could be CFOs. I've seen them being the chief supply chain officers with the new and I've seen this picked up for the last few months where we have a lot of supply chain disruptions. So the CIOs are getting very engaged in supply chain and process mining. So getting an exact sponsor is one of the key checklist item that you have to go make this happen. With that discussion, figure out what your strategic goals are like why should we do it? How can we align on a goal? It could be cost based. It could be revenue based. It could be EBITAB based any goal that your CEO cares about right and your champion can be CEO too. We have had multiple CIOs discussions where they are very passionate about the subject. So to that and then you bring in your your technical guys in right. You bring in your technology platform guys make sure that we can run through our technical checklist of privacy security. If you look at your data and see what are the use cases you can deploy, process mining in. What type of data do we need? What type of thing about on-prem, what's this cloud right? I think we would definitely want to stay cloud because of the agility it provides it provides a lot of data science real time capabilities. So make that decision whether you want to go EMS or on-prem and obviously you can from there figure out okay, if I were to do this should I be doing it myself or leveraging on my SI partners or should I be doing give it to Salona's right. So these are some of the checklist items I would definitely do. What in your opinion are some of the hallmark of a company where you would say they're almost there but it's still a little not mature enough for process mining. Is there such a company have you come across this yourself and what would you say? One of the biggest notes that you could say yeah, as long as you don't have this or maybe you need to kind of transform your business more before process mining really makes sense for you. Yeah. Unless you are working, I don't know man, unless you're working paper based companies, if you don't even have a digital trail, I think we can make anything happen as long as you have data right. So I always think about if you have a data meaning if you have a unique identifier, if you have a timestamp and an activity, these are three things you need to make it happen. So as long as you have non-paper based business, it is applicable. What about some lessons learned so in your previous role, did you also do some mistakes that you can now also open like knowledge that you would probably do otherwise now that you learn from basically because we all make so many of those. We do, I tend to make a lot of mistakes, yes, not major ones though, I mean, yes, I made some mistakes a ton of them, that thing about process mining or sound as itself. I'm going to say sometimes you underestimate the power of it, I mean, we, I think it's fairly powerful. We wanted to take it slow, then I would say it's a highly recommended to use cloud-based EMS platform, what's it on-prem, obviously, it gets you the agility, it takes you, takes out a lot of data engineering activity that you have to go through if you make it on-prem. That is one of the challenges we've had and we have spent a lot of hours, a lot of hours in managing pipelines and building those pipelines and always debugging issues and when you have missing data, you go back and repull the data, you do delta loads or full loads like we have done everything that you can imagine. You can take all of that away if you connect directly to EMS, right, execution management system, which is a cloud-based, that's what we call it, but you would take away all of the data engineering activities, put them in cloud and then use those resources to drive net new implementations or extract value from existing implementations. I would highly recommend you do that. We went, I've experienced working in the on-prem route, which took a lot of work. Looking back at your time at Salonis, what are some of the biggest transformations or the big successes that you've seen or witnessed happening at a company? I've seen a lot of the high tech industry where we, so this is an example where this large high tech manufacturers, they went through adding maybe 15, 20,000 sales reps through an acquisition. It was in England, right, it was one of the largest in the history and we were able to successfully merge the two sales force together, leveraging process mining, leveraging all the insights that we get from the sales process. Now, the devil's advocate is, which we have done the same thing, like if we didn't have process mining existed, we would have done the same thing. It would have been more painful though, but yes, I mean, that's one of the success factors where having that insight into the process, having the insight into the sales process, making the transition easier from moving the entire company from one shift to a different sales tax. So, it was fairly successful practice. On the other hand, we have seen a ton of other examples where companies were able to move their SAP S4HANA from one prime to cloud and we have had successful implementations where we literally move them in and if we were the GPS systems behind their migration, literally telling them guys, this is how you should move it and they were able to do that and that's one of the industry that PV, they don't want to move because it is painful and we made it so much easier for them. So, I mean, we have so many different examples of success stories that make this as a pretty unique product. Yeah, change is always painful. But I, looking into the future, what gets you excited about tomorrow's features in itself is that are maybe coming up and that we might not even know about it. So, I'm fairly passionate about our signal link and EMS capabilities, we're adding so many different apps, very industry specific apps that you can literally pull your data in, deploy it, and start realizing value. So, we are moving towards that direction, also, personally, very passionate about multi-one data models where you can deploy EMS into multiple applications, multiple value streams of your ecosystem, and then everything pulls together so that you have this one giant digital twin of your organization, you do that, right? So, I'm very passionate about that subject, obviously, it has applicability in supply chain where now you can use that capability to say, okay, where's my shipment set, where are my procuring my raw materials, what are the delay between all these activities, it's a pretty massive orchestration that you have to do, and then someone can do it at scale, that's the beauty of it. It's not just, it's still a startup, but we have matured over the last 10, 10 years into an EMS capability. So, I think the whole journey of EMS plus we have added a ton of our partner ecosystem. So, we have a pretty massive SI partners that can help you get rammed up, even with our service now partnership that we have just announced that will just make work to happen. So, I mean, all these things are really exciting that it's brewing right now. Yeah, it is also exciting for us as a partner and having this feature set our hands and doing things that we can with that it's pretty exciting. Pranay, thank you very, very much for coming to our podcast. As usual, it's been a lovely discussion and hearing these opinions and how things are going also on the other side of the ocean, because obviously we are operating and recording from Europe right now, having you joining us for most and it's been a great, great pleasure. Thank you very much. Thank you, Salman. Thank you, guys. For you, dear listeners, thank you for listening to our podcast. We hope that you're having fun and that you're learning and growing together with us. If you like us, leave us a rating on Apple podcasts or Spotify or wherever you're listening to the podcast. If you have any questions, write us an email. We are very active on LinkedIn. We can also receive emails on our email, which is minding your business podcast at gmail.com and we will be always very happy to hear anything from you, whether it's recommendation or question or just whether you are interested in what T-Shirt Botry exploring today. We can give you answers for all of that. Thank you very much for listening and see you here you and talk to you with the next episode of minding your business podcast. Bye-bye.