How to Stop Letting Fear Control Your Life (ft. Dr. Julie Smith)

Alright, let's talk about that little voice in your head. You know the one I'm talking about. The one that tells you that you're not good enough, that you should have done everything better, or that everyone else has it all figured out, except for you. Yeah, you know the one. Well, today we're going to put that voice under the microscope with someone who has spent her entire career helping people manage it. Dr. Julie Smith is a clinical psychologist and best-selling author. Her knack for explaining complex mental health issues with short, super-engaging videos has gained her millions of followers and made her one of the most popular mental health educators in the world. In this episode, we are going to talk about how to reframe negative thoughts and beliefs. Why self-criticism is such a trap and how you can get out of it, what she has personally struggled with since becoming internet famous, what it means to build actual resilience and not just make resilience, why emotions are not facts, and much, much more. So if you've ever felt stuck in your own head, struggled with motivation or just wanted a better way to handle the inevitable shitstorms of life, this one is for you, my friends. This is Dr. Julie, let's get right into it. You rose the prominence through social media, social media at this point is well known for being terrible for mental health. It's not my fault, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we're not going to hold you accountable, but I'm wondering, do you feel any cognitive dissonance around that? How do you square that? Like I said, some of this is a selfish question because I think about this sometimes. Being so active on social platforms, really trying to play the game with the algorithm and everything. How do you square that in your head? Yeah, to know it was a big deal when we first started kind of sharing videos and stuff, and I was absolutely kind of swimming against the tide professionally. Most therapists I knew and psychologists didn't even really use social media, let alone to share information, and so it was a big kind of part of my thought process about whether we do this or not, and then I thought, actually, you know, I can sit in my therapy room and complain about all the terrible advice there is out there from people who don't necessarily have the evidence base behind them and have zero control over it. Or I can get onto the internet and make my tiny little corner of it really helpful and positive. So that anyone who is out there scrolling has slightly more chance of coming across something that was decent information for them. And so it was the only way that I could really have a positive impact, because I can't change the fact that everybody is on social or how it's run. So yeah, it just became a kind of the way that I could have positive influence was I guess doing that, but I did not expect it to have any really. We made a couple of really terrible YouTube videos just because I felt like it was, it seemed like a good thing to do to share the educational side of therapy. So a lot of people think you go to therapy and you just talk, but you do learn a lot about how your mind works and relationships and stuff. And that was where the title of my first book came from was all these young people that were coming through to therapy. And why has nobody told me this before? This is not rocket science, but when I take it seriously and I put it into my life, it's having a really positive impact. So I used to kind of go home and say, you know, this should be more available. People shouldn't have to pay to come and see someone like me to find out basics about how their own brain works. And so Paul Matt said, well, go on then, you know, make it available. And so that's when we started with a bit of YouTube and then Matt discovered TikTok at the time. And so he makes some bite-sized videos like, no way, no way. It was like dancing and, you know, comedy and stuff. And then a bunch of people who were expressing their distress, but there wasn't anything sort of constructive or positive in response to that. So I honestly thought we were going to be trolled out of there or just ignored. So he said, well, if that happens, then we'll just, you know, delete the account and move on with our lives. So we were kind of expecting that to happen at some point. I thought it would be one of those projects you do for a while because it feels like a nice thing to do. And then it would fizzle out and that was 2019. And here we are. Wow. So you have become internet famous for better or worse. You're now best selling author. You're touring the US, doing a press tour. I'm curious, how is that affected your mental health? Do you know it's really. I never had any ambition to be a public person whatsoever. I was so happy doing one-to-one therapy in the room with people. I felt like I was really good at that. And I had, so I was in the NHS for about 10 years and then I left to do the private work so that I could manage around my children and have this really balanced life and it was all good. And then I had this great idea of sharing it all alone and all of that stuff went out the window and I was then pushed into doing all this kind of stuff that was way out my comfort zone. Like, you know, live TV and radio and speaking events and stuff. But I felt like I had to do it because I needed to practice what I was preaching. I'm telling people face your fears, step out your comfort zone, do what matters and the reason we kept going when it was really tough was that people just would email and contact us all the time saying that was really helpful. What's the next step to this? Or can you do a video on this and here's how the book really, really helped me and my family and thank you very much and when you realise you're having a positive impact on real lives, that gives you that kind of, I guess, a values around, okay, this is why I'm doing it even when it's not easy or comfortable for me. You know, I'm definitely a huge introvert and so when I do stuff like this, while I can really enjoy it because I'm talking about stuff that really interests me, it will totally deplete me. So I will need to, you know, I mean, my family will be at the hotel, like, "Hi, Mum." And I'm just going, "Wait a minute, I need to collapse and hear from in it." And so I have to have that kind of values based behind me about we're doing it for reason and because it feels like a positive thing to do, so yeah, which gives you that drive, I guess. Have you found yourself needing to take your own advice in a certain area? All the time. Yeah. And like, what is that specific thing? Yeah. What is the piece of advice that you often give that you struggled to take yourself? Well, let's take that idea of the kind of, when I've started doing live TV, so I was doing like this morning and stuff in the UK, which is a morning programme and on a sort of fairly regular basis, and really the only way I was able to do or willing to do that was if I fully committed to having my own back, if it went wrong. You know, when you kind of, when you're about to do it and there's equipment everywhere in the county, you know, three, two, and like, and you get these sort of horror movie ideas run through your mind about, oh my god, I'm going to fall over on that step and the nation's going to see my underwear and all these kind of things running through your mind. The only way you can then settle into doing the job that you know how to do is to say, okay, well, if that worst case scenario happens, I'm not going to kick myself while I'm down. I'm going to not be highly self-critical about it. I'm going to look after myself and acknowledge that this is really difficult for me. And so I guess I had to shift that sort of in a dialogue from one that was probably a lot harsher before to one that sounded much more not indulgent, not kind of lovey-dovey and all that, you know, focus, because it was, I had this idea of a sort of coach for, you know, all elite athletes have a coach, but that person isn't someone who tells you what you want here necessarily is what they tell you what you need to hear to enable you to, I don't know, when you've had a setback to pull you back up and get you to try again or someone who believes in you that, and is able to see that you can reach new heights if you, you know, get back in there and stuff. So I have that kind of idea in my mind that I have to be my own coach in my mind to be able to deal with the kind of all these situations that I could easily say no to. So it's kind of visualizing worst case scenario and then reminding yourself, I'll be okay. I'll have compassion for myself, I'm not going to judge myself, hold it against myself. Yeah, and I didn't sort of hang myself worth on all of it going really well, or any of it, like I was really happy that all of this happened a little bit later in life when I already had a career that I loved and I knew I was good at and I already had three beautiful children, a good marriage, like I was okay, like my life was fine and so this was an added extra. So I knew that if it all ended tomorrow, it wouldn't matter too much to me because I'm not hanging myself a steam on it. Yeah. So I think that helped as well. It's like there's a diversification. of your identity across many things. And so if one thing goes terribly-- Yeah. It's like an investment portfolio. Yeah. [LAUGHTER] Yeah. I don't want investment. No, no, no. If it's star crashes, I'm still OK. Yeah, yeah. And the fact that I was doing educational content really helped as well, because I was making content that was just to be helpful. And that's really how it all started. When I started to get myself a little bit-- so when the days when I was scrolling for research-- and then you get yourself in like, oh, god, they look much better than I do in front of the camera, or they're lighting's much better, or they're clothes much better. That I was really able to just check myself on that. And if a video could be helpful to someone, even if in looking back at it, I thought, oh, my god, I look terrible, or anything like that, I was able to just let it go anyway, and not be perfectionist about the stuff that really didn't matter so much. And so that was-- yeah. That mattered, usually, I made a big difference. My problem was always saying no. Yeah, that's my advice that I give all the time. Fucking terrible. I'm like, you have a chapter in the book about that. Actually, too, don't you? About saying like, accepting and saying. So yeah, that's too many things. I think I found it difficult to say no at the beginning when we felt like it was going to end tomorrow, you know? Exactly right. When we thought, OK, this is all-- it would just just make hate, just like, go for it while people are listening, and then it'll stop in a minute. And it just didn't. And so now that I recognize it's not all just going to shut off at some point, I'm able to say no, I'm just going to do this in a sustainable way. Because in that first year or two, when every video of putting on was getting more and more engagement or more views, it was just like the system loved us. And so we were thinking, OK, we just need to make as much content as possible while this is happening. And so we're making videos almost every day. But it was still just me and my husband. He still works full time. Three kids at home, locked down, homeschooling. I was writing my first book then. And it was just thing that got sacrificed was sleep. And that's not a good equation at all. So yeah, now I'm much more-- and because I'm not driven by that sort of like a fame or anything like that, I guess some people in the system probably think, she's mad, why is she saying no to this? Why is she saying no to that? But it just doesn't-- because it's not featuring on that kind of values system, then it's become easier to say now. I think. [MUSIC PLAYING] Open the book, which is open when a companion for life's twists and turns, you open the book with social comparison. Actually, a chapter on social comparison. Why did you open with that there? And how can people navigate social comparison since it's such a deep-rooted thing that we have and experience? Yeah, I think social comparison-- well, all of the chapters-- so there are 26 different chapters and different scenarios. And they're all based on things that we all face at some point. And social comparison is one of those things that there's nobody that's not done it. It's something that's in us. And yet there's so much on social media that it's probably one of the reasons that I have to stay away from social media. So much out there is just stop comparing yourself, because it'll make you feel bad. And it's like, really, it's such a fundamental part of being human. Our ability to do that helps us to be decent human beings, too, right? So if you live in a community of people and you're not comparing yourself to them, then you're quite possibly not really being a decent member of that community, because our ability to check out the people that we're living amongst and work out what their moral framework is, how they like to behave, what are the rules. And if you're able to then compare that to how you're doing and how you're living in that circle, that's really going to fare you well. And you're going to be hopefully a decent part of that community. So as far as I can see, the ability to compare is a strength, but in this kind of modern world, and especially on social and things like that, it kind of flips that strength upside down. And we end up making comparisons that don't necessarily help us move forward in our own lives, but can kind of send you into turmoil. So if you're comparing yourself to someone that you never, ever would have even met without social media, who is on a completely different playing field to you, and you're comparing yourself in ways that-- and let's say your looks or your personality or some sporting talent, or something that's really not that changeable, then that's going to result in you kind of killed upon the sofa feeling like you're a terrible person or you're rubbish, and you're never going to be good enough. Whereas if you use your ability to compare, you apply it to the right situation, and you can use it to your advantage. So I don't know if you're trying to get better at tennis, and you go to your local tennis club, and there's someone who is kind of a few months or years ahead of you on their kind of journey. And you notice that the thing you want to improve-- I don't know, your backhand or something-- they do it really well. And you can kind of zone right in on that. What is it that they do, and how do they do it, and what can I learn from that? And then all of that comparison becomes a plan of action that actually helps you in your life to improve the thing that is important to you. Whereas if you just go on social media and compare yourself to federal or somewhat, and then it's not going to be as constructive for you because it's not going to lead to a clear set of actions that's going to help you. I think another probably negative one is when you compare yourself to people that you're supposed to be in a relationship with. So whether that be friends or family even, especially with these kind of outside success metrics and stuff like that, all of that stuff just destroys relationships because you're instantly-- you know, someone that you're supposed to be on a team with, you're suddenly putting a scoreboard between you. And so their success feels like a threat, and your success will feel like a threat to them. And that just kind of thwarts your connection completely. Yeah. Yeah, in the book you talk about, we compare ourselves to people, and then the reaction we have to that. And it can either be aspirational, or you can kind of turn it inward and say, well, I'm just garbage. Completely, you've kind of already mentioned that. How do you take someone, like in your practice? How do you take someone from kind of reframing that to seeing all these people doing amazing things around me? And oh, I'm such a piece of garbage to, you know, oh, these people should be an aspiration to me instead. You have to be clear that you're in the right situation, first of all. I think because you can easily enter a situation. There doesn't necessarily feature in your kind of dreams for yourself or your value system. And then instantly start, you know, because I remember feeling that actually when I first started doing, like some TV bits, so you go into that scenario. Everyone's just beautiful and like, you know, all these, there's this kind of whole new world of stuff. And then you go home, you feel like garbage. Do you can compare yourself negatively in a situation that is never going to turn into something constructive? Because that's not what you're aiming for anyway. And in that situation, I think you have to come back to your own life and remember what matters to you. And I mean, one of the exercises in the book, I think I've put in both books actually, because it's something that it applies to so many situations and it's one of the tools that I personally use fairly often, actually, is the values exercise stuff. So there's loads of different ways you can do it, but it's really simple to get pen and paper and you look at, okay, split it into different boxes and list each area of your life. So that might be marriage, parenting, friendship, health, lifelong learning, whatever. And in each box, you put a few sentences or thoughts about what matters most to you in that area of your life. Not what you want to get, not what you want to happen to you, but how you want to show up there and the kind of thing you want to represent there in good times and bad. And so you get a few words there, sentences. And then you rate each box. It was just a crude kind of zero to 10, how important are those values to you in your life, zero, not to 10 max? So then you rate it again, still out of 10, but this time, how much you feel you're living in line with that value this week or this month. And then what you get is this indication of way you need to focus your attention in your life. So if you have rated something as 10 out of 10 important, but two out of 10 and how much you feel you're living in line with it right now, then that needs your attention, right? Whereas there might be other areas that you're really living in line with there. But it's not tool for self-criticism. It's a tool to show you where to place your attention next because you can't be 10 out of 10 on all of it all of the time. It's just impossible. Because life pulls you in different directions, right? So while I'm bringing a book out into the world, I'm not doing every single school run like I want to or whatever those things are. But it swings around about, I then know that if I'm not spending as much time with them as I want to be, I know that I'm going to make a plan to move back in that direction and just even things out a bit. And so you're constantly, you know, it's like if you're on a balancing beam, you never find that sweet spot where you just stay there and your balance forever. You're constantly shifting a bit. And you just notice when you're going too far one way and you pull yourself back the other way. So I think digressing from your question a bit, but when you, if you're comparing yourself situation isn't based on what you're aiming for anywhere. then that's one where you can just sort of recalibrate almost and come back to actually what matters to me because there's so many things you know you can go out and compare yourself to anyone and anything who have completely different lives and completely different values dates to you so you can come back to is that something I should be comparing myself to or not and I think that's a really helpful exercise because then if you're also basing your goals on your values it becomes really easy to look at who I should be comparing myself to and why and how yeah and mark you talk about that a lot about choosing the metrics yeah similar to what you're saying to yeah choosing metrics you're going to measure yourself by one of the things that I always think about is like if you're going to compare yourself to a good aspect of somebody you also need to compare yourself to the the bad aspect of that person right so it's like easy for me to look at somebody who you know I don't know there's a accomplish like some incredible thing I can envy that but I also need to envy all of the sacrifices struggles pitfalls problems that they've gone through to get that positive thing and I think kind of a mental fallacy that we all fall into is that we we only envy the positive thing we don't see all of the negative struggle and sacrifice that came that went into that positive thing and if and I think a lot of times if we were aware of that we'd be like oh no no I would not trade places with that person yeah yeah I think that's a big thing that I certainly became aware of doing therapy particularly once I left the NHS and I was doing private therapy I worked with people that you would imagine must have the best lives you know that you were there it'd be professional athletes or people who are really high up in that you know industry leaders and think we just imagine how could they be worried about anything and some of them were amongst the most unhappy people have ever worked with and so that as a sort of personal life experience for me was really helpful for there's a lot of the stuff is about perspective shifting isn't it and sometimes we get so into the detail of one tiny area of life and we start to then over-inflate it or magnify things and just having that shift of being able to put something at arm's length and go oh okay that's not what I thought it was it was just so helpful and that's really what the book is about to be fair I think a lot of people when you're in the eye of the storm whatever that storm is what you don't need is for someone to say you probably should have learned mine from the six months ago then you'd be right now you don't need that you need someone that just go you know just helps you to just shift the trajectory of your attention and see if you focus on this you start moving forward you're gonna move through it and out the other side but that's really hard to do for yourself because you've got emotion and confusion and no one's telling you how you know which ways up so it just you know helps you through that kind of either storm or most hmm what else have you found surprising through your practice I don't want to get too dark about but I so I used to my sort of specialist area when I was training was with the Ministry of Defense so we had a small unit that was by the NHS but it was just for MOD so and at the time we were in Afghanistan lots people come back so my sort of specialist and was military trauma really and so I guess I that probably influenced what I do now even more than I might have previously thought because there's a certain approach to to that sort of set of people that you might not have otherwise have taken you know that they're only gonna listen to you if you're you know dressing something in a certain way and so that but also listening to stories like that I think fundamentally changes you and your views on what humans are capable of for good or bad and what people can be led into and so I think and that I was doing that so that was my kind of specialist year so my final year of training I was doing that and then as I graduated my supervisor left his role and so I went into his job and so I was then let run in this unit as a newly qualified person and that was just massively game-changing for me I think a massive sort of massive learning curve around the sorts of things that people have to face and they're like things that if it was a movie you wouldn't imagine it could be true and that people out there have such tough lives there are some people dealing with stuff that we can't begin to imagine yeah yeah you had this great quote in the book though you said some of the most profound changes I've witnessed in people over the years have not been when their life suddenly got easier it was when people started to discover that they had more capacity to cope than they had ever imagined which I think speaks to what you were just saying how how do you guide someone through if they're in this kind of emotional morass basically and maybe it isn't as extreme as you know combat veterans or anything like that but how do you guide someone from this place I'm so overwhelmed with just emotion and so things are going so bad in my life how do you get them to a place where I look you can handle this you can't cope with this well I think that's the kind of stuff that led to me doing all of this and sharing the videos because in the private practice I was getting lots of people coming through that once they had the educational stuff they were rearing to go but the reason for that was because when they came into the room they thought they were at the mercy of emotional experience and mood and that and that when when they had emotion that meant something was wrong with them and so part of that education was learning that emotions aren't who you are they're an experience you're going to go through and is all this stuff you can do that influences that experience so that means a you don't have to fully believe in it every time it happens because it's influenced by all these other things that change and that there's this stuff you can do to either you know prevent it from happening in such an extreme way but also help you kind of bring yourself back to baseline when you feel it and you still remember the people now where they would get to a point where they felt able to you know they weren't they weren't constantly thinking what would you really say right now what would you say I should do to do whatever happens I think I think I can cope with it and it's this shift into the sense of agency that I have the capacity to manage whatever comes up for me because I know I'll have my own back and I've got a few tools to kind of deal with that and that's just a huge shift for someone I think if you believe in your ability to deal with hard times it feels fundamentally different you know you go from being the rabbit and headlights when something happens to the prey the person that's striding forward through it knowing there's a way through to the other side and certainly I use that kind of thing when so last summer I was diagnosed with an early stage breast cancer and when you find out something like that you never find out everything all at once you don't say okay you've got this thing and here's how far along it is and here's your treatment plan and here's your prospects you you find out in stages so there's this horrible period of time where you do feel like the rabbit had lights and you're just like oh my god what what does my future hold I don't know I hated that feeling of being the prey like bit you know and and I had this thing in my mind that if you if you feel like the prey then you behave like one and you then every movement you make is a sort of darting from shadow to shadow avoiding threats and that that's so different to a stride forward which is that kind of predator movement of I've got something in my sights and I'm using all this energy to go for it and I might eat you know and and so I wanted to kind of feel that way as I was dealing with it and when I when I got diagnosed I I was about a week away a week or two away from handing in the manuscript for open when and then I just thought I need to finish I was like editing polishing up and I thought I just need to get this off my desk get it gone so that I can focus on all of this and I just happened to be reading through the chapter on when fear shows up what do you know I was like reading it and I was like this is not what I want to hear at all actually this is not it was very gentle and therapy-ish and so I hit delete and revert the whole thing there and then just for me in this kind of selfish way of life I don't know what I'll find this help less great but this one's for me and and I did then I did did keep coming back to it and every time I came back to it and used all that language around predator and prey and you know using fear to drive you forwards through it and having a step forward not step back all that kind of stuff like very kind of focus and strong and oh my goodness it every time I read it I then got into action in sort of in my own survival like in my own rescue you know I would I would then make calls to get second opinions or I I got going contact with someone who recommended a surgeon and I got and and made stuff happen and so even though it didn't change the problem and it didn't really change how scary it was it changed how I moved through that and and it enabled me to behave in a way that made me so proud of how I dealt with it and then from having that experience and using those words to deal with it in that way, I now have that template in my mind that when it hits the fan, I know I can do stuff, I know I can do hard things 'cause I did it and doesn't make them any easier to deal with, but it feels fundamentally different for sure. - Can I just say, you already know where I'm going with this? (laughs) - Sorry, I just need to make it good. - No, no, no, no, no, we like the darkness, yes. We like the darkness, very much so. We're going to come back to the darkness, but first I need to score my points here. Before we went live, Drew and I were having a good natured argument over people who quote unquote, thrive under pressure, actually thrive or not, and what you just described. - Okay, that's what you're talking about. (laughs) - It's like taking the initiative, not feeling like prey, but being the predator, that's thriving right in pressure. - Well, I like how you framed it was, that it didn't affect how scary it was, you said, it didn't affect the fear. - No. - It affected where you put that fear in, how you use that fear rather than freezing. - Yeah. - You wrap it in the headlights. - Yeah. - You took it to action, I get that. - The point is I was right. (laughs) - Let's get what's most important. - Well, let's really get to the contracts of the matter. - I was right. - Thank you for showing us. - Sure, thank you very much. - You guys are a chapter in one about how to argue with someone saying, "Yeah, that's great, that's great." - Let me really, let me ask a really quick girl. - No, the whole first, like third of the book is dealing with relationships, basically. I think there are, you know, there's a lot of people. Now, you have these three chapters. What were there, when your friends are not your friends, when you want to be less awkward around people, when you feel unwelcome and want to fit in, these are kind of getting out that nuts and bolts of loneliness. I think actually of what's going on, the larger picture right now, in recent years, loneliness has become kind of a worrying trend. People are more and more lonely. What kind of things do you recommend to people, if somebody comes to your practice? - Yeah. - And it's obvious that they're just suffering from a lot of loneliness. Are there like specific things that they can do to, like in the short run especially, what can they do to feel less lonely and start to engage with people in a better, healthier way? - Yeah, it's interesting actually, because in there, I talk about how I guess people would assume that as a psychologist, I'm all into the kind of inner world and, you know, being self-reflectable the time and that kind of thing. But in there, I say about, you know, when you're dealing with stuff, the inner world is a bit like a sauna. Like there are benefits to being there, but only if you don't say too long. So, you know, anyone that I was dealing with in a therapeutic situation who was lonely, my job is really to put myself out of a job, right? So, is to focus on enabling that person to reach out to or create scenarios where they can have human connection and good quality human connection. And sometimes that's a function of circumstance or putting yourself in those kind of opportunities and scenarios and sometimes it's about skill set and being able to reach out to someone and, you know, speak to them and be assertive and advocate for yourself or those kind of situations or deal with social anxiety. And so, there can be lots of different barriers to connecting with people, but sometimes for a lot of people, I think the barriers are just modern life, right? You know, we were saying at home, you know, I mean, obviously I'm from England. The pub is a community pub is like a traditional, an ancient traditional England way. And really, it was somewhere people came together and had a conversation at the end of the day. And those things are kind of dying out now and even for kids. I remember as a kid, I sort of lived in this, like kind of a little area with all the houses and there was a big green in the middle and all the kids would run home and get changed and all knocking it to the doors. We'd all spend the rest of the evening outside just doing nothing and talking and learning how to treat each other. And that stuff just is so few and far between now. They're, you know, getting on fortnight and talking over a mic occasionally. (laughing) And it's just, yeah, it's completed. So sometimes the barriers are just modern life. And then, but I think that's up to us then to swim against the tide on that front. - Yeah, it takes extra concerted effort. You just mentioned in passing that your job as a therapist is to put yourself out of a job. I'm curious, which I love that. I'm curious for people who are in therapy or are going to therapy, like A, how do they know it's working versus just kind of treading water and then B, how do they know when it's time to go? - Yeah, I guess a lot of therapy is goal oriented. So if they're moving towards that goal, whatever that might be, then that's a kind of clear sign, isn't it? And for some people, it's more about clarity. So a big part of what you do in therapy is you formulate. So, you know, literally on paper will map out. Because some people, if it's like about relationships and stuff, a lot of people will say, I don't know what the problem is, but I'm just, I always do the same thing and I know it's not the right thing, but I don't know why I do it. And then we're going around in circles. And so in those kind of scenarios, where there isn't a clear endpoint where it's all okay, you're really what you're doing is formulating. So you're looking at, okay, these cycles that you feel stuck in, the details change each time, but roughly the kind of cycles the same. And you might create an understanding about where that came from. So it usually reflects those early relationships you had in life, but there's this kind of update that's needed because that template for relationships worked as a child, as a, you know, had a function as a child, but now as an adult, it messes things up. And so you kind of explore ways to exit that. And sometimes you'll go around the old cycle again, and that's fine. And sometimes you'll be able to exit and do something different. And then after a while of doing something different, you start to see that it's possible. And I think once people start to see that it's possible, they then feel less dependent on those sessions. And they can see that, okay, I know I need to do now. I know I need to do and then someone say, well, I'll just come back once a month for a bit. And there's a bit of a holding on. And then they're kind of like, yeah, I'm good. And so it's a gradual process, but yeah, usually depends on the person's goal, I'd say. - What's the difference between a good therapist and a bad therapist? - Mm-hmm. There's probably loads on that in terms of what bad therapy is. The way that what I would look for in someone is, is that personal connection, that ability to feel safe in the room to talk, 'cause that's what you've got to be able to do, right? You've got to be able to say things that you would never tell another soul. And so you have to be able to connect with a person. I mean, when I was running my practice, I would always have like a free sort of telephone conversation with someone beforehand where you kind of just, you know, feeling things out, being if that's something they want to do. And that first kind of assessment session is always about, does it feel right for both people? You're kind of almost assessing each other about whether you want to come back or not. And that sort of thing, but it's, yeah, it's all about how the stuff you can't really measure. You know, like how it feels in the room. And often, it's interesting because some of the people that I would sit within that first session, I think, and everything, back, I'm not sure. And then they do. And then each session, they get a bit more comfortable and a bit more comfortable. And sometimes people are more comfortable than you imagine they are because it's completely different to how they feel and they're not nice. So what, okay, so what makes a good patient? Then how can we be better like doing that? If you know, if we do find that match, because I think there's a certain type of person that goes to therapy saying, okay, now fix me, right? Yeah, that's definitely the, that's kind of the standard. Yeah, those people, I think when they think of it, they're like, yeah, if I'm going to go to therapy, you should fix me. That's obviously not how it works, though. So what makes a, like, how can we be better patients and clients for somebody like you? I think if you go to therapy, it's having some sort of idea of what you're wanting out of it. But saying that, actually, I've done work with people where we kind of, that's a collaborative piece of work anyway, as that they, then a lot of people come to therapy and they get, I don't really know what's wrong. It just, everything doesn't feel right. And I'm just a bit lost. And so that, you know, the development of goals is then a part of that formulation of what on earth is going on then, what's, what's changed? What did, so it's part of that kind of guided discovery together around how have we got here and what's that about? And so I guess that willingness to be honest is a big one because the therapist only knows as much as you tell them. And so if someone is going to get, you know, if I'm going to get the most out of a therapy experience, that's where the trust and the relationship comes in. I need to be able to go in there, they, everything, even when it feels uncomfortable to do that. And then if that person is a skilled enough therapist, you're, you know, you're going to stand the best chance of getting something out of it, I think. - What should you, what should you leave a therapist for, not for good reasons, but like if there is a, you're having, when's it time to break up with your therapist, I guess, yeah. (laughing) - Well, do you know what any decent therapist will have the ending in their mind already? - Okay. - We're often, often talk about that, but, you know, and really difficult for a lot of people and the end is your goal. So, you know, you start with that sentence, not necessarily a set, number of sessions or anything like that, but you start with how, especially if endings are difficult for the person, how that's going to be prepared for. And so, usually, if you've got decent evidence, that ending will be, yeah, prepared for and thought about long in advance, about how that's going to be done, because what you're doing is you're modeling a decent ending. Lots of people have really negative endings in their life that are quite traumatic. And so, if you can model positive ending and give yourselves a degree of control around what that looks like and what makes it positive, then they've got a new template in their mind for what a positive ending is like. And so, that in itself is really valuable. Yeah, never thought about that way. That's yeah. Yeah, I like that. Yeah, interesting. My favorite section of this was open when everything feels pointless. Oh, yeah. But not in that one too. But not because everything feels impossible or hard, but because I'm just a miserable existentialist. Let's bring the darkness back to the darkness. Yeah, speaking of the darkness, who, uh, you know, smokes my skinny French cigarettes. It is a problem that a lot of people come to come to you and just in the space. Like, when everything does feel pointless. Yeah, I mean, I do think nihilism is it's a real thing these days. Like, I run, I struggle with it and then I run into a lot of people my age or Gen Z who struggle with it. And yeah, I don't know, I guess, I don't have, that's one I don't know any answer to. You have a book chapter on it, Dr Julie. Well, I wouldn't say I have all the answers to it. But I do say it coming up a lot for sure. And, and I also think it's a natural part of being human too. I don't know anyone who's not experienced thoughts around that or, um, it often accompanies about of low mood. And then sometimes we assume that those thoughts came first when sometimes they come second. It's like, if I'm not, I don't know, three kids in a, if I haven't had good sleep for a week, I'll start to question my life choices. You know, and that's the thing is, is often the thoughts don't comfort. And, and so sometimes we give such, um, such value to the thought as if, um, because I'm thinking this way, it must be true. Same with like emotional reasoning, you know, because I feel like everything is pointless, everything must be pointless. And actually, maybe it's because, you know, you're socially isolated, you haven't exercised for six months, and you haven't slept well recently, or you're not eating well. And, and all that's given you mood a dip and now you're questioning life. So sometimes it's about sort of, again, formulating that thing, getting a bird's eye view of it or what's going on, what's made you vulnerable to feeling this way, because sometimes it's just a combination of stuff, isn't it? And, and in that sense, then kind of gripping out of it is easier than when it's just a constant worrying about whether life is in actually pointless. Yeah. Yeah. And I think too, like you mentioned there, like when you take your feelings as, as the base level truth of any situation that you're, you're asking for, that's, that's not good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like if you say, yes, everything feels pointless, so it must be pointless, or relationships are hard for me, so they're just not worth it. Period at the end. Taking that small one example and then generalizing it to the rest of your life is just a recipe for disaster over and over again. Yeah. Repeated disaster, actually. Yeah. Yeah. And a big part of what happens in a therapy called DBT that's around helping people regulate their emotions and tolerate distress. A lot of all of that is, is teaching people how to manage emotion and look at it in a different way. So, you know, one of those skills is about asking, okay, if this big emotion is here and it's uncomfortable, rather than do anything drastic to push it away and numb it, I'm going to ask, okay, is it warranted? And is it proportionate to the situation? Because the thing is that emotion is, we know it can't be fact because it's influenced by so many other things. You know, it's influenced by the state of your body and your blood pressure and what you've eaten today and how much coffee you've had and how much sleep you've had and it's influenced by the people around you. You know, we are the best and worst things for each other's nervous system. It's influenced by your work environment and the pressures on you and how much exercise you've had and whatever, like so many things that can impact on your emotional state. Therefore, if we just, when we experience an intense or painful emotion, if we take that to be fact, we could be way off. And then if we do something impulsive in response to it, we could kind of be sabotaging something really important with the relationship or a job or whatever. So, a lot of those kind of skills that we teach people around and dealing with emotion is a lot of pause, weight, look at it, is it warranted, is it proportionate situation? If it's not, let's just slow everything down and think it through. Yeah. Yeah. And I think like you said to sometimes just being okay with the emotion, you know, being okay with the sense of pointlessness for a while and understanding that like that doesn't necessarily make it true, but it's okay to feel this way at times. And, and you know, like the weather, you know, in meditation and Buddhism, they talk about how emotions are like weather patterns, you know, it's like you can watch them pass the same way you watch a cloud pass, you know, so it's just because it's rainy today, it doesn't mean it's life is rainy, it's just rainy today. Yeah. Indeed. And if you think of those kind of life is pointless type thoughts as as fundamental to human experience as a cloud is to weather, then you can notice that feeling come and go and you know then when it does come, it doesn't have to loss forever, but also it will return at some point and that's okay. And that's normal. But like you said, it doesn't mean that forever, you know, clouds are forever, but also that there are things you can do, so it is cloudy and rainy, it doesn't mean you stop living the life that matters to you, it means you put a coat on when you go out. You know, so there are certain things you can do to sort of soothe your way through those difficult emotions and and help you through it while they're there. Yeah. I just had a thought too that there's there's like probably a hidden value in the night nihilism because like really what nihilism is is just a questioning of the value of anything. And you need to be able to question the value of everything, right? Like you need everything in your life, you should be able to actually like stand back and question like, is this actually really important? Should I be focusing on this? Should I care about this? And that same, I guess, mental system that is doing that will have moments where it's on overdrive and you just kind of feel that way about everything. The reframe that I always come back to when I get that way is like, if there's no reason to do anything, there's also no reason to not do anything, like it's, if everything's pointless, then I have no excuse to not go do all the good things that I know I could do. Yeah. And actually given given a certain set of circumstances, it would become very clear very quickly what actually matters to you, but the the list of those things would be so small that it's so then easy to work at, you know, and it's usually always the the people in our lives that are closest to us that is what matters the most, right? There are the only things you grab in a scary situation. And so sometimes I think when we ask the question, we're looking for something that you know far out from what actually matters, aren't we? We're looking for some sort of something to strive towards and actually what matters is right here makes she on the sofa and and so often we spend so much time, I think maybe that's a product of like, you know, just constantly being marketed to about stuff we can buy and stuff, but if you're constantly focused on all of that outward stuff, it starts to feel pointless, but if we if you turn towards that feeling with curiosity rather than judgment, it it tells you that doesn't it tells you okay, if if I'm spending most of my life on stuff that doesn't seem to matter, then what does and how can I then spend more time doing the thing that truly matters to me and, you know, I'm the same when I when I talk about kind of doing this work, which which is really and feels really valuable, but if I spend too much time doing that and I'm not being the parent I want to be, forget it, like it all feels right out the window. So yeah, but it's if I listen to that, it tells me what I need, which is to be doing the thing that matters most to me. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. So we solve nihilism. We solve therapy. I won my argument with Drew. I know, I know, I know, anything else we need to cover. Just a little bit more navel gazing actually, it's what I would. You have a chapter on parents, a couple chapters on parenting actually, but the one when your parents got it wrong. When yeah, from your experience, how do parents often or most commonly. get it wrong and how does that affect people? - Great question. I don't know if there's a most common mistake because everybody's lives are so different, right? But I think certainly a mistake that we make when we think about the mistakes that our parents made is that as we sort of move into adulthood, we still treat that relationship with our parents as if it's a parent-child relationship. Yeah, so we're still in that kind of child mode for that child kind of position, which invites them to continue being the parent and then we feel frustrated about them behaving in that way because we're a big adult now. And also that we expect them as the parent to create the relationship that we always wish we had with them, despite the fact that we're now in an adult to adult relationship so that we have now more agency and we have really sort of give ourselves credit for to create the relationship that we want with them. And so rather than focusing on, are my parents giving me what I need and making me feel what I want to feel? What am I bringing to them and how am I contributing to this relationship in a positive way? And am I doing anything that keeps it stuck in a difficult scenario and thinking about things that happen in the past and a lot of people kind of have this fund to see that their parents could just see the mistakes they made and you know, apologise for it and all would be okay, right? Just change one thing. Yeah, yeah, right. And it sort of neglects the fact that no parent has a manual and those, you know, our own parents had their own traumas and difficult backgrounds that they were dealing with and much less insight than we have now about what parenting should look like. And we're, I think sometimes assuming that they now have the insight that we have, but actually most of them probably have just as little insight as they ever had about how parenting should go. And so I think it really helps to kind of adjust our expectations about what kind of relationship with my parents is possible. And if I'm looking at what I would be okay with and what I would be happy with, all I can look at is what I can bring to that to make that possible. But we still can't change them. We can't, you know, we can't sort of magic some insight into them that would, you know, make them the parents we always wanted them to be. But we can, we have this ability to kind of choose to a degree, the kind of relationship we have with them. If that means less of a relationship because they're terrible, people then so be it. Or if it means more of one, then how do you create that now that you're in that adult position? - Like if you're somebody who grew up with dysfunctional parents or parents who maybe didn't do a great job, where is the boundary between healing from that and just scapegoating them for your problems? - Yeah, 'cause that's a lot of the kind of social stuff, isn't that of, you know, your parents got it wrong and did this and did that. - You were raised by a narcissist? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, and, you know, you have to heal and, and I guess the second part of that that really gets me as well is this that you have to be healed before you can get in to relationship with someone? - Yeah, good luck. - Yeah, enjoy being alone. - Enjoy being a little bit of a serotonous. - Right, this is kind of idea of, like, heal this, like, some sort of perfect human that you never arrive at. And the other person has to be healed too. I just think they have to be just as insightful and yeah, it just doesn't happen like that. And it gives that impression as well that relationships are, you know, two perfect human beings getting together and living happily ever after. And actually relationships are not that they are too normal and normally imperfect human beings who work together to make the best of what they can with what they've got. And in the process, probably then a lot about themselves and each other and how to make it work, yeah. - Yeah, okay, I got one more. Okay, and it's a cheery note. - Yes. - Yeah. - 'Cause you have a chapter that says, "When you hate who you've become." So self-love them, let's talk about, real back to the darkness here. You have this little passage, and I'm sorry if I'm borrowing too much here, but it says, "You might tell yourself, "as long as I am liked by everyone around me, "then I'm okay." So you set to work on making sure that others think you are helpful and kind and worthwhile. This is an impossible task to sustain that will absorb as much energy as you're able to put into it and much more. First of all, I feel attacked. (laughing) - You don't know me. - No, yeah, yeah. This was definitely something though. I don't know if I want to, if I would say I'd push back a little bit on it, because this was definitely something where it's like, "Yeah, I didn't really like who I was, "I'm gonna show everybody that I'm actually, "I'm helpful, I'm worthwhile, I'm kind and all of this." And through that, I feel like I was like, "Oh, okay, I started out doing that for other people, "but then I found, actually, no, I am through those actions. "I am a competent person, and I've built these skills, "and I'm okay with that, "and it doesn't have to be validated by someone else." So, but I do think there are a lot of people who struggle with that, who don't like themselves, and they think, "Well, then I just need to do these things "to make other people like me, and then I'll be fine." Getting to that place of, you know, perfect health, and like you were talking about. - What do you say to people like that? - Well, it's quite a sort of, I guess it's quite a complex scenario in that the people, like people like yourself, where you experience something, and then you gain from the insight that you get over time, and you gain from all the positive action that it led to, and you learn and mature as you go. And then there are other people who feel that so strongly, that it makes them vulnerable to all sorts of problems in relationships with exploitation or abuse, or those kind of things where they just have no concept that their own judgment of things could be the right one, or, you know, everything is outward, all the agency is outward, and it's a really dangerous scenario. If you can't advocate for yourself, it puts you at risk of almost everything in relationships, and so it's quite complex work to sort of address when it's that severe, but some of it is down to, you know, like the assertiveness skills and changing that communication, but also, you know, the problem is rarely with the word no, the problem is with the feeling that comes with it, and, you know, the gills and the shame of putting your own needs first and those kind of things. So again, it comes back to all the skills around dealing with emotion, and because when you, when you can accept that emotions can also be an echo of the past, then they don't hold you back so much. So when your brain is constantly taking information from the outside world to make meaning things, but it's also taking information from what your body's doing and your blood pressure and all that, but it's also taking shortcuts. So it's also taking in, you know, memories of when you felt similar to this in the past, and using that to help make sense of whatever situation you're in now. So if in the past it made sense for you to please everybody all of the time, maybe it was dangerous not to, right? That made sense. So those emotional experiences are going to be just as strong as an adult in those kind of difficult situations as they were as a child, but it doesn't mean they now make sense to, they might hold you back and put you at risk, right? So some of that work would be around recognizing that emotion to be an echo of the past or something that made sense back then, but needs updating now so that you can act in line with your new insight despite the fact that the feeling of guilt or shame is there. Really easy for me to sit here and say, it's really hard to do in practice and takes people time to work on it, but it's absolutely possible. I've seen, yeah, I've seen people change their lives with that. I think that makes a lot of sense to me too, 'cause I think I did eventually realize like, oh, this is all from emotions from the past or that goes from the past like you're saying. Yeah. And like I didn't have to be boxed in with that. Yeah, that's an important point. Oh, a lot of people get that with, you know, everyone wants to prove it from their parents, right? But if your parents are particularly kind of difficult or highly critical or have their own kind of issues, sometimes you then get to a point in adulthood where you realize, I'm not sure I need this approval anymore, I've set out my own life, I've got my own set of values, and there's this kind of liberation in realizing I'm, I can, I can base my decisions on those values and my family rather than constantly seeking approval from parents. And I guess that's a normal sign of maturity. Free therapy session, yeah. All right. Well, I'm going to end our therapy relationship. I feel completely, I'm completely healed. So I am ready to face the world. Julie, thank you so much for coming out. The book is Open Wind, which, where's my camera? I'll do, there's my camera. Open Wind, it's available everywhere. Julie Smith, anything you want to add to? Oh, that's it. That was fantastic. You're healed too? I'm very much. I'm in a better place. It's done. It's bell time. And he's ready for a relationship now. Yeah. Yeah. I'll find someone else to do. Thanks, guys. Thanks. The SubtlArt of MackinarFuck podcast is produced by Drew Burning, edited by Andrew Nishimura, Jessica Choi, our videographer and sound engineer. Thank you for listening, and we will see you next week.