How to Start, Structure & Build a Global Cross Border Business, with Founder & CEO Rebecca Griffiths

[Music] Rebecca, thank you for coming on the podcast. Thanks, Happy Me. I travel 3,800 miles to be here. How good is that? I'll put myself in the centre of your universe and I'll pretend it was all for the podcast. Absolutely. I'll see you on the Saturday as well. There you go. Yes, very much. Thank you very much. I'm going to kick it off with where I'll probably normally start with guests. And it's the question I want to ask is, what point did you feel like you were a major business leader and where were you at in life when that happened? Oh, wow. That's a good question. I would say probably the last 18 months I felt like I've been, I've had to let kind of step up and be a bit more of a leader within kind of premise and just generally business life as well. I think the last six years have been a challenge in many ways with either entering the markets, having teams in three different time zones, Dubai, Cape Town and the UK. Yeah. And then obviously business challenges, not been as easy when you're building a business from the ground up. And I would say probably the last 18 months I've had to really dig deep. And as I call it, put on my big girl pants and really just push this business forward sometimes not wanting to because I'm tired. And I'm like, oh, you know, why is it always not easy? But I would say, yeah, the last 18 months for me, I would say has been probably the most challenging where I've had to really dig into being a business leader and do it for me and for the team. So, yeah, well then and also then where does that put you in life right in terms of family in terms of yeah, where were you when you first started it? Yeah, what was going on on there? So we've been going for six years. So 2020, it's funny because I incorporated the business on companies house in March 2020, the year of COVID. Prior to me doing that, I worked in the industry across reverse logistics, cross border and really supply chains. I went to Amazon for eight and a half years, both in the US and in the UK, launching next day delivery in prime. So not a lot of people know that, but I just kind of further down the CV and further down the LinkedIn. I was at Amazon, I think that's where a lot of my customer obsession and customer centric software has come from because Amazon is very customer obsessed with what they build, what they sell, how they deliver. And I think I've taken a hell of a lot from my time there. Then when I finished with Amazon, I didn't want to work in a big organization. I'm very scrappy entrepreneur founder. I like to build things from the ground up. So I moved into more sort of fast moving businesses. So I worked for rebound, you know, back in the day, I worked for happy returns in the US, work for Nava, you know, and then really the latter end of 2019. I was sitting on the holiday actually in Jamaica and I just thought, I don't really want to work for anyone anymore. I feel I'm done with that part. I want to do something for me and I want to create something and I've not built businesses before and it was very much, I'm just going to jump in the deep end and figure it out. So I was consulting for happy returns in the US when I was building premise because you need an income, you need to still bring money in. And my family was very supportive of me, you know, my parents, they don't really know what I do. They're like, oh, you're being really successful. And I'm like, do you know what I do? No, not really. You deliver parcels and I'm like, no, I'm not a DPD, but it's okay. I'm in logistics. And I think for me, it was very much 2020 was the year of, let's just give it a go. Let's just see what happens. The worst case scenario, I can just go back into the industry and get a job. The worst case scenario, this could be the best thing I've ever done for me, my family and, you know, to put a ticket in my box and go, I built and scaled a successful business and one day exit that business to whoever is interested. So yeah, I think it's been, it's definitely been a fun six years to date. Yeah, that's amazing. And I guess it seems like the kind of companies that you've joined and the kind of journey you've been on, it's almost giving you this full circle level of experience. It's probably giving you then the confidence to say, you know, what I think I have to do. Yeah, and I love logistics. I love being in an industry that you have to think on the spot, you have to be solutions led, you have to pivot in different ways. And that's what I love about premise is we've pivoted into new ways of a business because we've had to and we pivoted into a market that everyone thought I was crazy doing like 2022. I went to Dubai for a conference. Didn't know anybody met a few people now. I know. And they were like, what are you doing? And I'm like, I don't really know what I'm doing here. I'm just exploring because I've got to keep thinking of where the business is going to go next. And everyone's going, oh, you better go into the US. And I'm like, no, I feel like this market is for me. But I don't know what yet. So I've just got to keep traveling and keep going and keep going. And obviously now I'm living there three years in and 70% of our revenue comes from the Middle East. So, you know, when people thought I was mad, it's I'm kind of like, well, it might have been, but it's proving to be the right thing for the team and the right thing for the business and also the technology and the customers were serving in the region. It works because there's not also a huge competition out there as well versus if I went to the US. Yeah, and to be fair, I remember two things that I've been told and one is, you know, there's never the right decision it's making the decision right. And then also sometimes you don't know the impacts of a decision that you make until like six months down the road from having made that decision as the weather that was the right one. So yeah, it seems like an ice moment to have just said actually, yeah, 100% and like I was in Saudi last week, you know, and I'm literally I know, Saudi now at the back of my hand, react and I'm like, all right, any to go see this customer and this customer, this customer. But then the old me would have been like Rebecca, this is like a big milestone for you when you first came to react again, you knew nobody, Saudis a very different market to the U.A. And I'm walking into these big multi million, billion turnover businesses selling my business to them and they're like, yep, we need it. I'm like, okay, great. Do you know what to mean? But like the little girl in me would be like, oh, I'm so proud of you. And I'm just like, go, keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going. Because I do see, yeah, just keep yeah and don't forget like where you was and I always do that like when I flew in to Manchester last night, a piece of me is like, okay, this is not home for me anymore, but also it's a big look back of, but you left this country three years ago on a one way ticket. Yeah, everything into the business ship all my family across and I came back last night going, oh, it feels weird being back again. Because do you know what to mean? Like this is where I started the business and now I'm coming back here to close big retail brands going into the Middle East. Yeah, it's yeah, very 360 moment. No, I love it. I love it. And I want to I want to jump into, you know, when you first say, you know, you probably some of the Amazon piece but then rebound. How do you can rebound when you were there? Right. So when I was a rebound, it was with the two founders, Grayman Phil. Yeah. I remember joining them to and late 2018. Yeah. I wanted to go into the US market and because I lived and worked in the US, they were like, it's a perfect fit for you to go that route. And then we wanted to look at the white label. So they wanted technologies to white label their returns platform. So big three P L's carriers, as well as selling it directly to retailers. I've never been able to ever speak until I got a guy who used to work at pitney bows, which obviously is no longer any more. But I remember pitching to pitney bows. They were white labeling the rebound solution at the time. But that's the part I loved. It was the technology piece. Yeah. It was the piecing together the data, how to sell it. It wasn't going there has been a carrier, which is bizarre because people think, oh, you must have worked at DPD or Royal Man. I'm like, I've never worked for a carrier. I've always worked on the technology side of the logistics, never a physical network of DHL, DPD, Royal Mail, every, but I know the lot there. We've integrated into them because we've needed to for our technology. So yeah, rebound was very much a when I was there, it was like, they were still new, still scrappy, still based on telford. I remember I tried to tell for every Monday and I was like, God, this is so tedious, but you got to do it to the job. And I'm a turn of every Monday. And, you know, it was still very found a lead. The founders were still setting the board room every Monday management meetings, what we're doing here, what we're doing here. But still something in me was like, I don't want to be here long term. Yeah, there's something for me somewhere else, but I knew that they would do very, very well in the US. Was your role in rebound? It was kind of like partnership director. It was like working with all the big 3PLs in the US. So a CCO was one of them, GXO was another, PITLY BOSE was another. And again, that's where I saw and built out my network within those 3PL businesses, as well as working with UPS, USPS. So again, getting in that route. Yeah. So, but yeah, it was partnerships, sales, business development, but it was mostly working with big 3PL partners in the region. And then where did you go through after rebound? Nava. Nava is it. Yeah. - Logistics. - Logistics. - Logistics. So again, very much. That was my first step into like VC world. - Yes. - So Narva was very heavily VC'd. You know, they raised something like $30 million out of the US, Silicon Valley startup. - Yeah. - I'd obviously been with Amazon. Amazon, obviously, is a giant in itself, but it didn't feel like a VC run business. It just felt like a huge big organization. But Narva felt very much like it's very revenue dependent. You have to get these sort of monthly brands on board. It was very fast pace. - Yeah. - For good and bad reasons. I have a great time there, but I also had a very, not so great time there. It was very much you were working seven days away. I was traveling all the time back and forth to the US. And I was like, ooh, you know, and I had a little boy. - Yeah. - He was like too hardly saw him or lad, you know, and I was just kind of like, again, there's only so much you can do. You're like, this is not forever, because it's not my own. So I'm only going to put in so much acting get out until I feel I'm done, then I'll move on to the next thing. But yeah, Narva was my first step into VC world. And I remember sitting with the CEO and the managing director kind of going, right, these are the brands we need. But it was a product that nobody really knew. Post purchase wasn't a thing 10 years ago. - What is it just in quick summary? Like what is it, Narva provide? - So Narva provide sort of end-to-end track and trace visibility. So in that branded experience. So if you're buying from Jim Shah, represent whoever those brands are, is said have been pushed out to the DVD while mail to track your parcel. You would have a much more brand immersive experience. - How awesome. - So it would be, you know, high joy your parcels. So, so, do you need to redirect it? Do this and marketing elements in there as well? Do you know where our nearest store is? Do you want to know how easy it is to return a product? So it was very much ingesting all of that information into a single source of communication. Versus going to like DHL. It's like track your parcel, oh, it's an error. Ring this number, can't get through. - Yeah. - You do know to me, so it's like increasing what it was, it was decreasing, sorry, the WISMO into call center. - Yes. - Which is what Narva did very, very well in the US. They wanted to replicate it in the UK or across the EMEA. And there was a lot of pushback initially. It was that, oh no, we don't see the benefit of that. But now it's huge. - It's huge. There's so many brands that do this now. parcel lab, after-ship, Narva, parcel perform, all those brands that I know and have met all the C-O founders. - Yeah. - And I'm like, oh wow, okay, you've raised a lot of money to do what Narva did and they've raised a lot of money. But I think Narva have gone back into the US, which is their homegrown. - Yeah. - I think the likes of other competitors have really stuck it out in the UK. - Yeah. - And what round of investment do you have when you joined? - Series C, I remember that. Yeah, yeah, and they raised like 30 to 35 million. - Right. - Which is when I joined, I was like, wow. - Yeah, yeah. - But they soon quite burned through that money. - Yeah. - Like I am in believing. And within six months, they could be London office. They got rid of the London team. So clearly they were like not bringing on as quick as they should have done. - Yeah. - But it was a typical US startup where they think we're super successful in the US. We're gonna be exactly the same here. It's a complete different market. - Yeah, yeah. The economy scale is just so much smaller in the UK. - Of course it is. - And we don't spend as much. Just bricks are like, oh no, we've got budget. - For a gold. - We'll hold it on, we'll, for a gold. Exactly. You know, but the US are more open to, you'll give it a go. - Yeah. - Let's try it. But how much is it? $100,000. Yeah, no problem. So what changed for us, but you're going to do that to a retailer here, 100,000 pounds? - No, no, no, no. - Yeah. - No, we don't have that. We have to split that between four, five, six, seven projects. - Yes. - Yeah. - As to give that to one software provider, you've got to be very good at what you do. And now I was not amazing at what they did, but they did well. - Yeah. - But I think they realize it's probably best to go back to the US and reinvent what we've gotten. - I recently saw that reaction actually with the passport global. - Saw that with the globally? - Well, yeah, they've done it before. I haven't been by globally, but then, yeah, when they first launched into the UK, 'cause I helped them launch into the UK, but I think their reaction to it was like, you know, almost like when you first look under the hood, it's like, you're almost expecting brands to be given more than kind of what they are and be a little bit more for come into it. So, yeah, interesting. - Doesn't it? - Yeah. - Okay, and then from now on, is that then when you end? - That's when I started. - Start from this. - Yeah. - Yeah. - And then, and that like, I guess that got feeling or that fire that you had. Like, where do you think that started for you, you know, to say, I'm at some point gonna do. - Amazon. - My own business, really. - That's it. - I remember the day I was in the office and Jeff Bezos was in the lift with me, and he was on the phone, you know. And I was like, he's awesome. I'm like, rushing off the tube, hot and flustered, trying to get into the offices in the hall, but then he was there visiting the C-suite team for the UK or EMEA office. And I remember he was just so cool. So down to his scruffy trainers, jeans, black top, like nothing special of him. - Yeah. - But the way he just held himself, the way he was having this conversation on the phone and you know, he did the nod to all the everyone in the lift like morning, morning, morning. I'm like morning, morning, morning, morning. You know, and I remember like, - People like moment for most people, but then like, - And he's just like morning. - I'm like, morning. - Non-Quan. - Yeah. - Same old. - I'm like, I really want to stay in this little, like literally go, but you're on the top level. I'm like third, you know, third level. And I remember getting out and I remember thinking, you're just a normal person. - Yeah. - Who built a business from books, where everyone said, you're mad. It will never work. No one's going to buy books. Then he transpired into other things, didn't it? And then Amazon is now, what, crikey? - Just a beast. - It's just a beast. - A mammoth, a beast. - And I remember like sitting in a room listening to their leadership principles, like because some obsession, be frugal, but all these things. And I think that's where ingrained in me and I was like, okay, I can see why some people stay here in majority of their career because they can move around. And I moved around a couple of times, actually in different departments. But I remember sitting in a meeting, kind of having that fire in the belly of life. I would love to do something myself one day. I don't know what. I don't know when. I don't know how. You know, but if you don't try, you don't know. - Yeah, yeah. - You know, and I've obviously my company is VC backed. So I was like, I think, well, I'm a VC funded reformer. I'm like, I have a hell. Do you know what you're doing? Do I shit? No, I'm just turning up. I'm just telling the world what I believe. I can do what the business can do, what I vision I see. And I think there is something in me that, you know, you just think no one can take that away from you. - Yeah, yeah. It's an unbelievable intrinsic self confidence with our confidence at gas, just a fully backed yourself. - I think I have to do. - And many people are scared to do that. So. - Because if you know backed yourself, no one else will. - Yeah. - You've got to back your own. Like I backed my team. I backed all the people that are in my circle. Let's call it that. And I will do anything for those people in my circle. - Yeah. - And I think by always say to everybody, back yourself, because you have to look after you as well and you've got to believe in yourself because if you don't believe in it, no one else is going to believe in it. - Yeah. - And when you're raising money, people always say, we're investing in the founder. - Yeah. - Like your numbers are great, yeah, or your numbers may not be great. But we believe that you can pivot. We believe that you can in uncertainty do what you need to do to make the business survive. I like how to do that. I've had to pivot and that's why I pivoted to the Middle East. - Yeah. - Because I could see the UK was just either going to be really, really tough for me. Because I didn't have the deep pockets. I didn't raise huge amounts of capital. I raised enough. - Yeah. - But I didn't have the fancy offices. I didn't have the 113 members on LinkedIn. I just had kept my business small because I'd rather be small agile and be there for every brand. - Yeah. - And be a 300 employee business. - Build a time in a day. - Yeah. - And then you went up exactly. And then you're churning your staff all the time. And I was like, I've been in those organizations, Narbo, and many others. And I was like, I don't want that for my business. So I'm very much kind of like, I have to stick to that path, who pivoted to that Middle East to go, yeah, people might think I'm mad. But. - Well, I want to give Chris some real respect and a bit of time. So just to be really like clear as to, what is it premise of doing? What are the people they serve in? Yeah, what's the business profile? - So we are a cross-border technology provider for brands who want to basically ship internationally, specifically into the Middle East. We provide that end-to-end technology from 3PL logistics. So we're integrating to multiple 3PL partners across Saudi Arabia, Middle East, Qatar, and then. We provide an in-return experience. So we can do return to store. So all we're integrating to Dubai Mall or E-MAR, the properties. So we can do the item return, the item back store, ship from store. Product is also. So fully Arabic. So we are fully Arabic left to right translation and local currency. We can do all the in market branded tracking. So very similar to what NARVAR has done. This is an element of where I've come from and what I've brought across, 'cause that's what I know. - Yeah. - And then what we're trying to do now is get more into the granular of the data. So really being a data system for brands to look at us and go where are we performing in which GCC market? What's our best sellers? How are our three PLs performing? What carriers are we using? What's our return rates in the region? So we've really brought all of those fundamental moving parts into one single source of a platform, which is premise connect as we call it. And that sits into your ecosystem like your WMS, ERP, your Shopify stores, if you have one or 10, you don't have to go to multiple dashboards, you go to us. - All under one and brand. - Correct. And you can then see everything in real time. And we support brands from the UK, from the US, looking at the Middle East, going, we don't know how to do it, but we want to do it. And we come in as a specialised to go, we can control everything. We can bring your stock in from factory, we have partners that we're integrated into and you get the visibility of freight pickup, collection, custom clearance, and water record. We've got all of that within our system as well. So they literally go, oh, so you can do everything. Yes, you don't need an entity, we can be the entity, you don't need an import of record, we can be the import of record. - Oh well. - You know, and they'll look at it as, oh, so I don't need to get a team over there. - Low risk. - Low risk, high reward. - Low value to our trade. - Yes. - All we need to know is, what products are you bringing into the region, SKUs, are they, or bar coded? Have they got everything they need? We upload it into the WMS system, we choose the allocated of work, fulfillment center you're going to be in, so we manage all of that end to end. And then we'll say, what stores are you going to be selling in? Oh, we're going to do Dubai more and then we're going to do more of em, or it's great. Then we can do stock replenishment to the stores, two, three times a week. We can collect the returns that the customers brought back in, we integrate into the POS system. So we really are a one-stop solution, but we can also go modular-based as well. So some brands will go, or we're a franchisee with so and so. That's fine. So where do you need us? Well, we want to launch E-Com. So can you just do our E-Com, but leave stores off because Shaloo covers that fine. Not a problem. Or could you talk to Shaloo and see if there's a way of integrating each other? Absolutely. So we're very agile in the ways that we do it. And then the second part that we're launching later this year is that the whole duty drawback scheme. So again, returns are coming back into the region. They're eligible for a duty drawback. So part of our platform is we're connected into Saudi customs, UAE customs, all the GCC custom clearance. And then we can go, all those returns that you brought back in, you're now eligible for a 99% refund. And they're like, "Oh, can you do that?" Of course we can, because we've got all your data in the system from your export, your import. Oh, we know the brokerage you're using, our brokerage, and we can then go and take all of that collateral to Dubai Customs and say, "Here you go. This is customer A. These are the returns that last 12 months. What are they eligible for?" Oh, 500,000 dirums. Perfect. Submit the refund. Yeah. So then when they look at Premiere, they'll go ROI's ex. Actually, for me to bring the product in, you will surpass what we need it to come back. So it's net net when we look at someone like a Premiere's working with you. So. Seems very clean in a way of how it's done and quite surgical in terms of the module approach. Because I think I put a post at a couple of days, or maybe a couple of weeks go around logistics providers, like constantly just letting me down, because I'll promise the world. And then I'm like, "Can I do this?" Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I get into the integration, and I go, "Oh, we don't have that, and we don't have this." And I'm like, "Why have you let me do this?" Like, I've told the customer you can do it. Yeah, yeah. And now your API doesn't let us do it. So we have to look at an alternative supplier. So we are supplier dependent. Don't get me wrong. We have to integrate into the local carriers, into the local fulfillment centers. Some of it is very easy. Some of it is very difficult. Like if you go to Saudi, or if it's like a minefield, it's not as westernized as we would expect here, or in Europe, or in the US. So you have to get your teeth sometimes, but they are getting better. Well, I want to dig into that. Well, before we do, I had a question, what are you going to do in the UK? What are you going to do in the UK? Can you sell that to other logistics companies? Yes. Or like label solution? Yes. Yes. So we've spoken to a few 3PLs out there, like Helmann, Kun and Argo, DSB, we've spoken to a lot of those guys. We can also send this to Carriers. So Carriers could also use it as well. So I know the guys over at Nackil, Saudi Post. We're doing some white label in work with those guys. Or like Oman, Assy Edgrew, or Omani Post, they use our technology as well. So we've white label it quite a few, quite some big brands out there. But there is still a big push for me personally. And I think there's more logistics providers who probably don't know we do that. That we do do that. And it's like we integrate with you. You don't integrate with us. We will do the legwork. We will do the lifting and the shifting. And then you can sell it. And you can sell it however you like. Because all these carriers are doing cross border into the region. But then guess what if it's a parallel? So we're going to come back. And they don't think of returns. That's how the consumers buy now. It's multiple. Yeah. I'm sucker for it. Yeah. I buy five dresses. No, I'm only going to keep one. Maybe two. So three are going to come all the way back to the UK. Bye. The brands go in I can't have free returns though. Yes, cost of the floor too. Yeah. Yeah. So I need paid is that portal? Set all your payment terms that makes what I sense them because I guess if you set the company up as a cross-border and that's you know, that's you You go to market you can basically add any of the solution under that umbrella. Yes That's the that's the I guess the reason. Yes. It's your scope is much bigger as Is she's out of the court order and because do you do domestic? Yes, we can do domestic and we do do domestic for a couple of our brands in the region who hold goods in Jebel Ali Freezone in Dubai South like the big Freezone hub in in the UAE and we do service a lot of domestic Brands from the UK that I've come in yeah, but our big push is to do the cross-border because it's I always say just start small Yeah, it doesn't need to be Bang from day one like just where are we collecting from in the UK? Oh, Manchester great Then we'll do five days a week collection. Yeah, we're gonna ship into the UAE We're gonna clear within DXB airport and we're going to deliver to the final mark customer And then we're going to do that in reverse So what the goods are coming in we can then circulate that back and find Different ways and I think that is sometimes what's missing in the industry in the UAE specifically is they don't get very creative Because e-commerce you've got to think only really came into play Covid time. Yeah, so e-commerce in the Middle East is six seven years old. Yeah, yeah Here in the in this in the UK it's 20 years old. Yeah, so we've much more advanced in what we want Returns in the region is one of those of oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll get round to it What's the percentage of your returns? 15% it's quite low. I'm like 15% will turn into 30 30 will turn into 50 It's gonna go at the same scale and then you're gonna go we're hemorrhaging load of money. Yeah, we are not we don't have control Customers are not coming to buy from us anymore because we don't offer you know easy returns So then the brands will then come back and then knock on our door and say hi, and I'm gonna go Should I tell me Yeah, yeah, but e-commerce growing massively out there, you know, I always say the market is very cash rich time pool So brands who do cross board I always say make sure you have the best quickest solution because Sitting in the UAE for a dress three to five days is really long. Yeah, I'm bored I'll go to the shop and get something then yeah, so you have to think of ways of Bring in a solution quicker. Yeah, and then it would be and then if I don't like that dress How easy is it for me to then send that dress back? Oh, we don't do returns in that region. I'm not gonna buy from you again Yeah, yeah, so yeah, it's I love it. I love the region. There is so much potential And I want to be part of that history if that makes sense. I want to be oh If you need this go to premise. That's what they do and they guess you know, it what's it been? Like what would you say the operational challenges have been for for this? operational challenges I would say fulfillment and warehousing I probably say it's been an operation challenge because In the industry over there, it's been very big and bulky items and I again e-commerce not being a thing. Yeah So when you go and pitch to a brand in the UK they come with Vaz they come with this is how we like it We want to be clean and hanging swing tags this and that the other you go to a three-piano like we don't do that Yeah, I'm like that's standard in the UK guys you need to do that. Yeah. Oh So that's been the challenge. It's been the education. Yeah, you then go to Saudi and you go right I've got an apparel brand, you know $2,000 dresses. Can I see your facilities? I see their facilities. I'm like yeah, I'm not putting my goods in that facility. Yeah, why Would I like you're not set up for it? You're putting Dresses are in boxes. They need to be in pick station. They need to be located in an area What's the technology you use? Oh, it's spoke now. I'm good. Thanks. I don't want to spoke technology because Yes, and I have been burned and I and I will be very honest. I have been burned in the early days. Yeah, I'm going Yeah, there worries will integrate then things go wrong. We can't change it. We can't influence it. We have to then log a ticket It's just got the language barrier. You've got a lot of there is a lot of pain in the region. It's not glitzing glam that people think But you have to really get under the bonnets of them. Yeah And you have to sit in person with them. You can't do it over teams and zooms. You have to sit in their offices and say This is what I want. Yeah, this is how I need it and you feel like you're talking really like to a child. Yeah But it's the way they're like yep get it and you're like get it clear right let's integrate. Yeah And then you end up not showing that to the brand no they just go that was seamless. I'm like it wasn't for us But you know, long as you're happy you know, we don't realize how much bulldoze and I'd have to do to get it Literally, so yeah, very cool So then what what would you say then the benefits of building a business out of you know the UAE yeah to buy would be The UE is a very entrepreneurial market I find building a business there you are not alone You are very much around other businesses that want to help Be part of your network, introduce to people help you help you I found here in the UK at times. I was always like can I get that introduction? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah Never come never comes yeah you ask again, and there's only so many times You'll be like well now I look desperate, so forget it. I'll find I'll figure it out myself In the UAE you can have one coffee with someone a VC a retailer Generally just like you know general get together's paddle paddles a huge thing out there And you can be chatting to so and say no girl. What do you do and I'll go oh, I do this. Oh, you need to chat to my name She runs a beauty brand. I'm like all right. Who's the beauty brand? Oh, it's hodda beauty for arguments And I'm like oh wow and it's like let me introduce you you on what's up aren't you yeah next minute the what's up done And you're like shit Got a meeting and then next minute oh hi, I recognize to meet you so and so tell me about what you do can come to our offices and pitch to our team yeah You and so I find in the UE is very much entrepreneurial You're there people are there to build businesses. Yeah, you know um And it is full of expats from all around the world And everyone's like how can I help you how long we've been in the region do you know so and so no, I don't you should speak so and so This is the person yeah connect to them here connect with him a link to tell him I sent you And I'm like hi Vaughn from Saudi 17 is oh yeah, he's messaging me last night. How can I help you what do you need? Oh wow and it's like that and I love that because that's me as a person I love to help people and I like to see other people be successful. I love to see other founders Go ah yeah, they've gone alive with that introduction. I did amazing That's also because it will always come back round. It might not be around immediately But it will come back round just good karma 100% and I just think like but that's that that's what I love about living in that city is you can go to an event Or anything and everyone is there because They want to make it they want to they brought their business across from the UK or they're scaling it in the UE or they want To get into Saudi and I'll go you speak so and so all right. Can I can I can you help me with that? Yeah, it's again And how much like how much planning did you do before? You know because I know like you described yourself as a scrappy yeah scrappy founder and I'm thinking okay. Did she just Decide one week? And tell the family we're going so I went to an event you know emex their big conference the postal I went there I mean it was stuffy with anything and load of postal people, but I thought I'm just gonna see what's going on and That was 2022 right then I went back probably every Eight weeks nine weeks in and out I just thought I'm just gonna put some money and travel and just get in his market and feel it I spent 18 months back and forth back and forth back and forth to one point someone and cabin crew on our lemma It's was like you're here again. It's like yes Because I was that frequently. I was I just had a be in my bonnet And I thought this is where I'm going. I'm chasing this. I don't know what it is or the end goal, but I'm chasing it And I would say in 2023 I was like we're moving Yeah, because I need to be on the ground now. I'm missing out on opportunities So like it would be things like I go back to the UK. I get what so oh so so what's the meet-and-thirsty? I'm like I'm not there. I like oh when are you back? Oh, I don't really know. Oh, okay. No worries And you know what it's like when you've got a hot opportunity you jump on it. Yeah, but I'm a saleswoman You can't take that away from me. I'm like I want to be you now. Yeah, you know, and I literally was like I can't I've missed that opportunity. Yeah, you know because I couldn't get to that coffee shop on that Tuesday that that time that person wanted me and they're very In person and it's such an impersonal. Yeah, like I spent my first year just always out in coffee shops You know and like everyone's like you always out of just coffee shops I'm like because that's where people want to meet you And also as well people will go can you meet me on Sunday? I think in the UK but like meet you on Sunday now My day off. I will let you know what time. Yeah, can we do in the morning? So I want to take my little boy out in the afternoon. Yeah, yeah, let's meet at eight perfect. Yeah, and you've done a deal by 10 o'clock on the Sunday I'm back home right, taking the little lad out and I'm like, oh, it's so funny because like, normally, I wouldn't ask anyone to do a Saturday, you know, podcast, but like, there was something just through when we spoke and stuff. I was like, I think she might be open to it. Yeah, absolutely. You know, like, I just want to tell her me, you might have been open to it. Yeah. So Saturday, Sunday, late Monday night, like, yeah, yeah, and Friday business. Yeah, because these are all part of building a brand. I've got to build a brand for me. Yeah. I've got to build a brand for the business and I want people to know what we do and this is all part of networking and connections and, you know, how often are you finding yourself now back in the UK if you were to put a percentage on it, you know, Joey, I spend eight percent of the time. You ate. I would say I'm in the UK with Fibosent. Fibosent. Literally. So I was here in February because we had on board a quite a large retailer out here in Manchester. Yes. And we would, they, we'd gone through peak with them and I thought, right, let's do a six months look back. So I was like, I'm coming to Manchester. Yeah. Spent some time on my CTO, spend some time on my head up customer operations. We just got together as a team and I spent the four week here. I then flew back to Dubai. Obviously, then everything kicked off on the 28th of said. I was like, I'm not going back to the UK for a while. Yeah. And then I'd had a few retailers in Dubai this week that were then like, look, we want to continue conversations back in Manchester and I thought, right, I'm coming back. Yeah. So I don't come back necessarily for personal time. Like I've got a family here. I'm in Dadaar in Sheffield, you know, but I come back for work. But most of my family come and visit me in Dubai. Yeah. Yeah. So they're like, welcome to you. I'm like, fine. Yeah. So I would say from a work perspective, yeah, 5% the rest of the time I'm Dubai, Saudi, Qatar, QA, yeah, just round that golf market. Got you. And do you spend more time in Europe? Yeah. I've been to Europe for a few years now. Yeah. Literally. Yeah. I'm going to the US when I was living in Dubai and that was a 16 hour flight. Well, that's the longest flight I've ever done. I got on Dubai at like 3am. But then landed the same day in New York. And I was tripping out because I'm like, oh my god, because it was like the nine hour time difference. Yeah. Yeah. So I left my home on a Monday, but landed in New York and a Monday and the whole of Monday. And I was like, what is going on? But I was there because we were pitching for an opportunity. I thought, I'm going to do it. We didn't get the opportunity. But got a few miles on me ever since. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I met some friends in New York and met some free founders there. So I don't necessarily go to the US anymore. But my travel before I moved to the UE was 80% traveling. Well, you know, and it got to a point I was like, I'm exhausted. Yeah. This is more just me being nosey really. But how much do you think you spend on travel? Yeah. I remember one year. I think I spent nearly 50 grand. Yeah. 50 grand on travel and hotels. Wow. Yeah. Well, to be fair, you've got a luxury taste for how it sounds. But now, you're at the Edwardian. Oh, I know. I mean, you're not, yeah, you're not, you're not premium in it. But then I got on a booking.com point. So I've used my points. I've used my points on my Emirates. I'm still in Northern. I am still tight in some ways. Yeah. But also, yeah, easily between 30 to 50k on travel. Yeah. Because it was. Can actually to the people. It was the right thing to do. But now when I look at my travel expenses now, it's my new because it's like an easy jet from here to Amsterdam for me to go to Saudi. Got. Yeah. So I can go to Saudi on a new bridge. Right. So a lot cheaper. And hotels are a lot cheaper than they are here. Yeah. So I can do Saudi on a 200 quid trip. Right. Oh, I can do it in a day if I really wanted to get the 5am out and get the 10pm back. Yeah. Yeah. And do a quick round robin of everything and then come back home by one o'clock in the morning. Got it. Or I could do, as I call it, a quick, easy jet across. Yeah. So when I look at my P&L now, I'm like, see, isn't it beneficial for me to be in the UAE because my travel expenses are completely gone. Demenished. Yeah. But I put it into, I wasn't just going for going, say, but I would always try when I went, it would be a week, seven days. Sometimes it was two weeks because there'd be an event on then there'd be conference and there'd be business development, then it would be. But yeah, they all got a point where I was like, I'm sick and tired of hotels now. Yeah. It's just all the talk of flight here, flight there, flight here. I'm like, I'm actually dragging it up on the travel. Yeah. So I had to ask. I was a flying business all the time. I could tell you that. I got my little seat in economy, got my laptop and I'm foreshadily finished on my deck. Yeah. I've been away. Yeah. Literally doing the red eyes. My lamp goes straight to that meeting and people are like, oh, it's just so glamorous. I'm like, no. Yeah. It's a good. It's a good. Well, then you mentioned that you went into premise with no experience of BC. How did you approach it and what was your expectation before you were successful? And then yeah. So BC is one of those things on. It's a love hate. If you need the capital to accelerate and go quick, it's a great way to do it. But you have to be aware of what you're signing yourself up to. It's a seven to ten year marriage. Yeah. You know, they're coming in. They are taking a piece of your baby. They're putting cash in, fair enough. But you've got to think of you're now married to this person for quite a period of time. And you will go through some very highs and you'll go through some very dramatic close. Yeah. And I would say last year I went through very dramatic close where when the cards are turned, you realise who's on your side and who's not. And I'll very openly talk about it because I think you have to as a founder of it's not glitz and glam. It's not everything you see. And for me, when I look back now, do I am I glad that I've e-seed fundraised? Yes and no. There's a part of me wishes I shouldn't have done it. I should have just kept. Boots strapped it. Boots strapped it. And I boot strapped it for two years with my own cash. Yeah. And pay myself a salary for nearly three years. I did some consultancy because I still need money in. Never be used money. Through the business. I think I'm through the business. And I paid my team. My team always got paid. I never got paid. I was like, gotta keep reinvesting the money back in, back in, back in. Then someone said either go for angel or crowdfunding VC. And someone introduced me to like a VC kind of connect to platform and said, oh, we'll take a success fee of the value that you go on fundraise. And I was like, yeah, fine, like if you're doing the work, I'm happy to pay you a success fee. We then raised in 2022, the first raise with two VCs here in the UK. But that business, what they raised, what I pitched to them in 2022. So what it is now, I'm like, even the pitch deck is awful. And look at it and think, God, that's awful. Well, who would take that seriously? You know, but they did. They were like, yeah, we see what you're trying to build. Here's a million quid. And I'm like, a million pound. Wow. And I remember entering that, dropping in my bank account. And I was like, what do I do with that? Spend it. Go and spend it. I'm like, I can't spend that. It's a million pounds. They're like, you have to spend it to get to build. Yeah, to build. Right? Okay. So I was like, oh, I can take a salary now. And I was like, what a salary can I take? They were like, can't take more than 30k. It's like 30,000. They're like, yep, I'm like, okay. Okay. Building. But you know, and again, being honest and open, that's what it is in those days when you were VC. And then we raised again two years later, we raised another two and a half million. Yeah. That landed in bank. And I'm like, it's even more money now. But that then gives the odds are a lot greater now. You've got to go and you've got a board to report to you've got three investors that sit on your cap table who want to know, are you performing? Yeah. Are you doing well? Have you got the right people? Are you building what you need to do? And it was them when I kind of told them, I'm going to go to the Middle East. And everyone will like, no. And I'm like, well, I'm going. Yeah. That's where I see the future of this business. Back me or don't back me. I'm going. And I in a way, I feel like a little bit like and told you so. Yeah. Yeah. Because now 70% of my revenue comes from the Middle East. Yes. Yeah. And I'm glad I didn't believe because again, the naivety of me years ago would have been gone, okay, they know better. They're the VCs. They know they know what business is. But actually, you're not a founder. You're not in this market. Yeah. You don't know logistics. The nicest possible way. So no, I'm going to back me and I'm going to back the future of this business. And that's what I did. And then now as we've obviously got to a point, like, could we raise again probably, but I actually want to build this business into a profitable business. Yeah. I don't want more noise added in the business anymore. I think from last year, it's more like, no, for me, I rather build this business to be profitable. And one day exit. Yeah. What that exit will be? I don't know. I'm already absolutely not. I still love what I do. So what round would you class yourself? Series A. Series A now. Okay. So we've raised a few mill now in total. We still have some of it. And I've got majority of it. Yeah. And it's it's the you've got to really get into the mindset of you have to burn this money. Yes. You can't keep it in the bank. It blows my mind. It blows my mind still. It does because I've I've bootstrapped, you know, our business and like the blood sweat energy that goes into that is crazy. But then on the flip side, I just know there's an entire bubble of world that does that raise money? You know, you don't blow it, but you have to spend it. Yeah. But also, I don't like it because it's a status thing. Yeah. I don't like that. I'm not in this world of statuses. People think, oh, I'm VC back. Look at me. Look at me. And I'm like, yeah, I've raised some money, but it's not something to be proud of. You're raising money from somebody else to gone burn it. Personally, I've visited some more profitable and in the green month on month, it's a lot sexier to me than me completely being in the negative every month. Yeah. And don't get me wrong. All the businesses I've worked on have all been VC backed. And they've all been either a PE or a VC. They have. Yeah. And I'm fine with that. But when I look to the future now, and I look at 2027, which technically I'm in now, because we're halfway through the year, we've got some around the corner and peak and no one's going to entertain us again now until January when budgets are back. Yeah. So for me, I'm kind of like, do I go on fundraise, bringing more cash? Let's have the conversation. But also, I'm a lot headstrong as well now going, I don't like those terms. Yeah. I don't like you. Yeah. We don't connect. You don't get what I'm doing. It's a no for me. You know, and I think you have to go. I haven't taken the last lot in a, oh, I don't know, but I think again, the last year to 18 months has taught me so, so much in life. Yeah. Of if it doesn't feel right, don't take it. Yeah. If that conversation doesn't flow, it's not going to flow 10 times later. It's, it's, or in the down period. Yeah. And I think it's when the cards are down and the table is turned and the founder is sitting there going, I don't know what to do. And then they don't help. Yeah. That's when you know, okay, I think we know where our beds are lying. Yeah. I'm good. I'll just let me continue what I need to do. You mentioned like the lowest of lows, as well as like high to high. It's like, what do you, where were you when you would put yourself at the lowest lows? What was going on? Last year, we probably the lowest of my career in premise. I would say there was a lot of internal issues within the business. Again, more publicly talk about it, won't name names, but you know, I will talk about it because I think you have to and know that you're not alone because I thought I was alone because you don't read it. You don't talk about it. Yeah. And then you listen to podcasts, you're like, shit, you've gone through a lot worse than me and you're still surviving or you've pivoted or you've got a new business. And I think last year was probably the the lowest that I was just like, I'm done. I'm going to write my CV. I'm going to start talking to some recruiters. I'm going to get my CV ready and I'm going to go back to market and it didn't worry me that. I was like, maybe it's time for a change. Maybe this is it. Maybe this is the business is not going to go anymore now. And then I go to bed and I wake up the next day and I'm like, no, I am not putting my CV together. I am going to keep going on this business. Yeah. And I think last year was just one of those where I realized who were my cheerleaders and who were waiting for me to fail. Yeah. And it's quite sad when when I look back and all I've ever done to anybody who's joined the businesses looked after you, giving you the flexibility, you know, I'm not one of those psychopathic CEOs who's ringing you seven days a week, disturbing your holiday, disturbing your weekends. Like I had that when I was the other side, I had CEOs ringing me Sunday night. I need this, I need this, I need this. I'm like, I'm trying to put my boy to bed. Like, yeah, give me a little bit of flexibility. And that's one of the reasons why I did promise was to not do that to other people in a way. Yeah. But yeah, last year was one of those I was like, I don't think I can do 2026, 2025 again. Yeah. And then it kind of peaked into 2026, probably the first quarter of this year. And then I've gone, I can either sit in this pain or just push through this and just keep going, keep going and keep going. And I think you get to a point where you're like, I am tired though. Yeah. Is there a fairy godmother's going to come and help me in some ways? And then when people say, I must hate you, but all you shit together, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, part of it is part of it is fake it to make it. Yeah. No one's got that shit together. I'm sorry. No, no, no, no. No matter what size business you are, yeah, you've got to just keep showing up for you and your team. Yeah. And that's what I do seven days a week. No, I love that. Yeah. I love that. So, yeah, 2025 was a, I was that way? Was that was that just down to the market? So no, everything in 2025 was like international is all a bit crazy. No, I don't think it was the market. It was people. Right. It was people I had the biggest problem with last year. Internal external internal. Just as a business. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And either they didn't get the market and then didn't know how we needed to do it. I did. And that, do you know what I mean? It was cause some friction and yeah, yeah, it caused friction and it was one of those, okay, I think this business needs to part with some certain people and we did do that. And, you know, it was uncomfortable for some elements of people who were staying in the business of like what's going on and my next no, but also I'm building a business. This is not a blue chip organization where a couple of people can leave and it's the business usual. We are a startup. There is a team. You are going to fill the pain. I'm going to fill the pain. But we have to just get through it together. And that's what we did do. And as I say, with a little bit of a hangover in early of this year, and I feel like the ship then just sort of steady. You know, and I've just been do you lean on the BC's when when you know, it's a almost almost like therapy that do you or is it not that kind of relationship? I have for in times. Yeah. But I feel like I'm kind of also as well. Part of me doesn't want to show all my dirty laundry as well because they'll then go what's she doing? She okay. Like do we need to bring someone into help you? Yeah. So you want to go into it open and but you're also don't it's like you don't want to then show more you dirty secrets of oh, well, this is shit. That's failed. That's broken. They've walked away. They've turned. They've got into administration. They're going oh my god. Like what's next? Yes. So you end up kind of like you want to show the good version. But I think again, I've grown into leaning to the bad times and tell people them because they'll either help you, although just go how are you going to fix it? And that's all I got left to was how are you going to fix it? Well, how would you think? No, how are you going to fix it? Well, this is my idea. These are my suggestions. Okay. Okay. No one want to add anything? No. Okay. So who did you who did you confide in or did you know? Was there anyone that you felt? I think my family was definitely my biggest rock last year. Parents, partners, you know, a couple of my best mates, you know, I leaned into just the kind of like, oh, you never guess what's happening now. And then like, my mom, daddy, be like, why? My dad's like, why? What's going what's going why are they so why are they gunning for you? And I'm like, I don't know. And then my mom's like, jealousy. It's this. It's the other, you know, to me. And I'm like, it is what it is. And I can get through that. But I would say my family definitely pulled me through the darkest of times of last year. And it's also made me have a little bit more of a barrier up now as well. Yeah. No. Because I've gone, okay, I don't trust as easy anymore. And I have to protect me and my circle of people and my business. Yeah. Because people are out there. Yeah. It's crazy to think isn't it? It is. Like hyenas. Yeah. You know, you've got 99% people want you to do well. Like, I want everybody to do well in life. You get one life. Yeah. You get one go on this merry go round. Why do you want to take people down? Yeah. Why do you want to see people in pain? I don't get that. I'm not wired like that. Well, you mentioned that you have the, you know, the moment you woke up, you used to actually know I'm going to go for it. So like since then, what kind of things have led to that success or the, you know, the, the, it was there any catalyst moments of like, we landed a huge retainer or, you know, there was this and this. I think a couple of things I did at the beginning of the year was like, I kind of honed out of a few things I got out of the day to day of the business. That was probably the one of the things that I, I know I probably was a pain to the team. Yeah. Because I was in everything. Yeah. Every, I knew every little bit of what was going on the business. And I didn't need to know every little bit. Like, I didn't need to know that one customer didn't have a returns collection. I didn't need to know that my ops team need to know that. Yeah. And sorted it out. Carrier. I don't need to be other walks out from the founder again. Why is it all the number five, six, two, one, never been collected? I don't know. D.H. Harden collected. I don't own D.H.L. Like, well, how am I going to get this return collected? I'm like, leave me alone. Yeah. Speak to the ops team, you know, but I end up going, team wants going on and they're going to be sorted because I was in that fight or flight mode of everything's crashing here. Let's figure it out. So I remember sending a message to the team on Slack saying, look, I'm not going anywhere, but can you take me out of calls and emails that I don't need to be in anymore? Yeah. I need to focus on the long term of this business. Yeah. And the long term of me in this business now. And I need to get out of the day today. And every team member will like, about bloody time. Do you know, but in a nice way, like, would you tell any of this for a month or a decade? You haven't done it. And I'm like, no, but that's just me. I'm one of those of got to get the worst extreme. Yeah. Then I take a step back and go, okay, I'm going to change it now. That's just me, I think it's a Virgo thing, I don't. now. So for me, then the beginning of this year was, right, focus on strategic, focus on your customers, focus on what you're good at. And I love sitting with my customers. I love going into head offices and sitting with retail brands. Because also a part of me is a little bit like, I know this market, I know what I'm talking about. Yeah. Sit and listen to me. And I'll listen to what you want. And we'll do it together. And I think I've leaned in on the things that I know I'm very, very good at and then delegated things that I'm not very good at. And gone, right, you're good at ops or you're good at doing this to me. You just do that report for me and send it to me and I'll check it tonight because I can't be everywhere anymore. Yeah. And I blocked time out. That's one thing I've done now is I've gone, right, I've got two hour gap. I'm not leaving it open. I'm blocking it because I need to do things. Yes. Whether that's personal, like, I need to go to the gym. Yeah. Like, and I'll put going to the gym, do not disturb because that has been the biggest thing for me for my mental health is go to the gym, put your air pods on, but do not disturb. I've slack channels coming on WhatsApp's voice notes. Do you know what I mean? And I think that has been especially in Dubai, there is gym 24/7 loads of different things you can go to. So I always say fundamentally, that is my non-negotiable of I have a hour that I have to go and do something for me because again, the old me, I was, I was everywhere for everyone. Yeah. Yeah. You did a sacrifice yourself. Yeah. And I was just burning, burning, burning, burning, burning, but then I've gone, no. So someone says, I want to do a court at that time. And I'm like, no, because you're always 10 minutes late. You know, I can't do that time. I'm sorry. And saying no is actually really quite powerful because then you're protecting your time that you're not always available. Yes. Which is what I was used to be. And then we do get your time, the abruxia here. Correct. And then people are like, okay, I've been past your details, like we want to get into the QE, we want to get in Saudi, I understand you can help us. And I love when people then say, you've been recommended. Yeah. And I'm like, oh, maybe I have been something like that. You need that little pat. We're human. Do you want that little well down? Like you've done well or you know what you're doing and the market's coming to you because you know the market and what you're doing. But then the other side of me is like, yeah, because I've invested in this market. Yeah. I've put my time and energy and budget to grow this brand and this technology in a region that I see huge reward for. So I don't know whether you can speak to this, but because you are VC backed. The sort of, you know, everyone talks about UAE that has benefits, everything like that. Is there anything you would say on that as like, you know, could you recommend, you know, let's say companies wanting to settle out of there. Yeah. Like just how beneficial that's maybe been from a company in structural. Sure. So we still obviously have, we have an entity in the UAE. We have an entity in Saudi and then we have obviously I still have my UK team here and I have an office down in Cape Town as well. So I've got four entities across the globe. The UAE entity is really just there for trade licenses. So if you want to do things like government RFPs, RFIs, they don't want you to have a contract in the UK because they see it as, oh, you're just cross-bordering money. So they do want to, again, for you to be taken seriously, they do want you to see your trade license, your Emirates ID, things like they'll go, oh, you're invested in this market. So we're going to invest budget into your business. The same in Saudi, you're not taking massively seriously in Saudi because if you're not, if you're just tranting in and out, but you're not investing in the kingdom, the kind of like, oh, it's just another Westerner coming in, coming out, coming in now. So I had to invest in Saudi. I had to then get a visa license. I had to then get an entity set up because, again, if I want to do things like with PIS for the big giga projects out there, they're not going to involve me because they're going to see UK company. No, it's just another consultant taking money out. No, no, no, we don't want to do that. But I still have a team here. Of course, there's tax benefit. But when you see you made investment, was that like property or was it more just intention to do? No, you have to, you have to put some capital into the region to get this visa license, which is like an entrepreneurial enterprise license. So you can, so when someone says, oh, we want to work with you. Can I get your trade license so we can bill you on it? Yeah. You have to present all those things. I think it was something like 25,000 dollars. So not huge, not small. Yeah. You know, but because we wanted to do more within PIF and big giga projects out there, we knew that was going to be very much a number one criteria. But also if we want to raise capital out there, they don't want to give capital to a business that have only got a UK entity because they can't be seen again. Oh, we're investing in a UK company, but the founders base in the UE, it just doesn't. Yeah. So I have to. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Grab and go. Grab and go. Yeah. Which again, a lot of consultants have done. They've got and got the money worth PWC and then gone back to Dubai or gone back to London. Yeah. Yeah. And they've gone, oh, where's that money gone? Oh, he's left. No. So there's different ways you have to kind of work it. And again, that's only been me being going in and out where I've gone, right, can you introduce me to someone so to get this trade license? Yeah. Go to this person. Thank you. Go to this government entity for here. Go to that government entity for there. Okay. So I've set it up. And I think that's where people then think that I'm just like, dilly dallying around. No, we've done this professionally on the right way. Yeah. Yeah. For all the rest of us to be successful. And I suppose then I'm like the personal tax and business tax. Yeah. What we like, was that was that almost as surprising as when you've got that first million like, you know, because of how much you're actually not being taxed. Yeah. So obviously we still have a UK entity. So I still pay all taxes that I needed here in this country. So K, IE, national insurance for all for the company. I still do everything there. I am paid obviously in the U. A. Yes. Yes. But I still have it from the UK accountant. So I do everything properly and appropriate to the paper. I don't do any skirt around. Yeah. Because people do. Yeah. I'm not one for that. So I have a proper and accountant who is got who is U. A. regulated and UK regulated. Right. And they work with us to do a U. A. Payroll, a UK payroll and our South African payroll. Yeah. So we do everything the right way. Of course, the U. A. is tax free. Of course it is. It's a benefit. Yeah. But that wasn't the reason we go in there. No, sure. The reason for me was to this business need to be successful. This is where I'm placing the business. If you were to categorise the UAE, would you categorise them as like, you know, a developed market or an emerging market or, you know, semi-developed sort of? I would say it's an emerging market. So there's a place in the UAE called DIFC, which is like the financial district. So you've got the likes of HSBC, Ernst & Jan PwC, all the big blue chip organisations. If you want to set up into the UAE, you know, go and get your licenses out of the regulated businesses that are in DIFC. There's a lot of people who have come into the UAE and gone, oh, I've got my trade license out of Razaqaima. It's a high street. Right. Yeah. It cost me 200 quid. Like, okay, who did that for you? Oh, me mate, did it. I'm like, okay, I don't want to work with that. So you have to be, so when retail brands are coming in now and going, can you help us? We want to set up an entity because we want the revenue to come through the UAE, not out of the UK. So I'll then direct them. So I'm going to speak to these people. There's a lot of brands doing that now. Go in. We'd rather have our revenue in the region than having it in the UK where we're going to get taxed in. Yeah. There's benefits. So I'm speaking to a lot of founders and CEOs who are going, right, I've got a fashion brand here in the UK. I've got US entity. We want to have a UAE entity. What's the best way to do it because we're going to have our own bank account here. So all revenue will go into our HoG. And then they just have, and then I'll say speak to these people and they just go off and have do their own thing and they'll come back. So here's our licenses. Like, great. We'll put the licenses on the contract and things. So there's a few things we have to do. But it is easy to set up. But there's still a long way to go. I don't know. This will be a little bit like how long to be so string because one might want business to you in the next one. So I've put them like, how much do you think realistically you need in the bank to say, we're going to, I'm going to, you know, I'm going to immigrate to the UAE. Good question. It is a bit how long is a piece of string because some people go to Dubai and want to have live in the best area. Yeah. Like the best cars go to the best schools. And that's fine. If you can do that, but I went to the region of like, look, we haven't got a huge amount of money. Yeah. But I need to live in an area that I can get to. So we live like not far from like the logistics areas because I want to be in and out of the free zones, the three PLs and the, you know, all the areas of where my carriers are. So I'm always with my partners at all times. But you can just go to Dubai. If you're going with with a with work. Yeah. You've got that safety in it anyway. Because they come with property. They come with school accommodation. They come with a big package. But I didn't go with any of that. I went with self funded into the region. And that's it. Yeah. You know, I left everything in the UK, my property, I sold my car, handed one car back. And I was like, we're going completely started and scratch. Yeah, and about. Just literally, yeah, we literally left on a BA flight all our, we shipping container, all our stuff in. Yeah. So for Tally's bed, everything's in the UK. We rented out our UK property. We landed on the November and it was one way ticket. And we were like, well, we need to get car, we need to get house, we need to find school. Yeah. How's it look on taking to it? Loves it. Yeah, he loves it. He's now and again says, Mommy, I wish there was more greenery. Right. And I was like, yeah, you got desert on either side and the random camel walking down the road or a random camel on the back of a van. We transported to a beach, you know what I mean? Yeah. But I think it's an experienced farm. It's not forever. The UAE is not my forever home. It's a home for the business and in order for the business to be at Class 1, I think that's what people don't fundamentally get when I say I live in the UAE. Oh, I'm just going to be all right, tax free. Like, I'm there for the business guys because way up, I either spend 50 grand a year transportation in and out in and out or completely rip that out and spend that money investing in products. While I'm living in the region, I can get to the brands quicker. I can host brands that are coming in from the UK like we've done this week. And they go, oh, the safety net, she knows the market. She knows the area. She knows the area is great. I want to work with you then work with an unknown entity. Yeah. Yeah. You know, so people don't see that. I don't find with that. But I know why we're there. I know why the business is there. I think it's like, I think anyone watching will be like, so it's a very savvy move to do that. Because if you are a is an emerging market, then, you know, what great place to set up a business that's only going to add about, you know, I think you go back to because I feel like, yeah, I don't know maybe maybe I'm just being negative. I'm super like, do you think you came up? It's gone a bit stagnant. Yeah, that's okay. Okay. I think it's on stagnant in VC funding. Yeah. I think it's gone stagnant in regards to budget and startups. I think we tell us still I personally think this on a hangover from COVID days. You know, some have gone amazingly well. I think stumbles just surviving still. So they don't have the budget to then go, hey, we want to work with you. Yeah. Because it's either like, oh, we've already got something similar in place. So we don't want to rip it out. It's not broken. It's not great. So let's not. But then you look at the the UAE region of the GCC region. They'll go, we have nothing. So help us. We have budget. Yeah. And it's kind of like, that's why we've done it because we knew. Focus on that market. We super specialized and be the go to product and the go to solution for any retail brand who wants to get into that region. Yes. Yeah. Then putting all our bets on the US and being up against 50 competitors and. Just a huge, it's a huge beast, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. But the UK will always be my home. My UK will always be where I start the company. The majority of my team are here in the UK, Manchester, Cambridge, London. You know, so it's not forever. Yeah. But it's I think we need to do episode two in Dubai. 100% I think so. Backshot of like the bird's Khalifa. And I tell the fountains are. Yeah. 100%. Yeah. No. I've actually never been. So have you not? Yeah. Well, I feel like I know who to call it. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. I need to hook up. Yeah. No, it's it's a fabulous market. And obviously it's coming out of the last few months again or what's happened. But yeah, I think one was an upwards. Okay. So then I guess, you know, for all the brands out there that have, you know, considered it. And you'll know that we connected with like what was your what's your thing? Conn building a sustainable. The con brand. Yeah. I think for us, we always say start small. Don't go big too, too quick because, you know, there is lots of intricacies in different Mark in the GCC each market is very different. We always say the UEE is your launch pad. So you come into the UEE, you don't need a huge amount of capital. You don't need trade licenses and legal entities set up. You don't need that because we have that for you. Or we ever say, go buy what your data is saying. So go to Shopify. What are you shipping cross-border today? So let's say we spoke to one brand the other day and they said 40% of our revenue is going into the Middle East. But we are paying the HL express prices of 56th quarter parcel, adding on the war search chart add on this add on that. It's not sustainable anymore. So we need to be closer into the region. And I always say great. So you've done the research already. So what do you want to do in the region? Is it just the UEE? Are you wanting to do cross-border into the GCC? Do you want the UEE to be your home? And then you ship to Saudi, Oman, Bahrain, Qatar? Yes. How do we do that? Right. And then that's when we uncover more of the conversation with them was how many products do you want to bring into the region? Personally, don't rip everything out of your warehouse. Just bring your best sellers. Start with your best sellers first. Start with what you're seeing. You're shipping on a daily basis into the region. Oh yeah, that's a good idea actually. We don't want your winter stuff. And then I always get very creative and say, right, you know, you're swimwear stuff that you're probably going to put on sale in July. We want it because it's all year round sunshine. So that swimwear category that you're potentially going to put into the summer sale. Bring it into the region, but still a charitable price. Yeah. And they're like, oh, right. Yeah, get it. And I'm like, why would you discount it? Because it's hot all year round. But we're in the summer sale now here in the UK. So you're now putting 20, 30, 40, 50% sale on. But you don't need to do that. So when you've come to the end of your summer here, bring across what's been doing really well here. Because I can tell you now the consumers that you're targeting in the UK will be the same in Dubai. And they'll know about your brand because they'll probably be from the UK. So they'll go, oh, this brand now can ship same day delivery. Amazing. I want that bikini. Then we pay it paying 20, 30 dollars to have it shipped across border. So I always say, like get very creative when you start to bring products into to create a sustainable growing brand. Where you don't need to go right. We've got half a million to invest and we want to do a big launch and we want to do a pop up. We want to do this. I want to do that. And I'm like, they're all wonderful ideas, guys, but just slow. Because I don't want you to burn in the first three months and then you attract. I just work for Rebecca. Thank you very much. Bye. Yeah. That's not good for us. That's a loss and put all the effort in. So I'd rather go slow and steady, slow and steady. Yeah. And then you just keep looking at the data over and over again. Of right. What's our conversion now that we've got same day delivery. What's our returns now looking like? Are they what's our average order now converted to within normally one? It's gone to five. Is it gone to one now three? So it's all those things I always sit with the retailer one and go, just give me a Shopify data. We will then take it back. We'll then come back to you with a suggestion. You can take it. You can leave it. Yeah. And nine times out of 10. They're like, I never thought of it like that. So I'm like, don't discount the stuff that you're going to get rid of because. In September, the weather is going into our winter. Where everybody's back out again. Yeah. And then we'll be back at the beach. Yeah. We're back at the beach club. So we're back at the water park. So that swimwear. Don't knock off 50 quid. Leave it. Yeah. Or another way to think of it is your prices are typically higher in the U. So in Zara, I get so frustrated with Zara because they charge 40% more. Oh, really? Yeah. For the same thing. Oh, wow. So I'll go to my go to the Andell Centre and go to Zara later. And all the things I want to do. I can buy a t-shirt for a tenor. Yeah. But if I go to Dubai Mall or Dubai Hills, it's 30 quid. Why is that? Because consumers buying habits are more. And because people think, oh, you're tax-free, you can spend more. Right. So most of the stores, if you go to Zara, Mango, or the high-sheet brands. Yeah. The prices are more. Higher. So we advise brands going, right. So you want to sell that piece of, you know, swimwear. And it's 30 pounds here in the UK. You probably could sell it for 40, 45 in Dubai. Oh, right. Can I? Yeah. So you get more money. Yeah. So your margins are not as tight. Yeah. And your conversions are quicker. Your average order is higher. So when you sit with that brand, they'll go, I never thought of it. That's why I wear this specialist. That's why we want your brand in the region. You know, so like I typically work with like FDs, CFOs, CEOs. And then I get brought into like Ecom digital, who then go right here. So I'll add data. If you've gone sell that to a CFO, go and bring your product into a bond of freezer. You pay no import duties or taxes. You only, but you only get charged when it leaves from an Ecom order. You can increase your prices between 10 to 40% more. Your returns are lower. And fulfillment costs are cheaper because labor is cheaper. Yeah. Versus the UK Belgium LA Australia. It's an Obrana. And then the FDs going, yeah, I get it. Let's go. to do it. So I've had more conversations with FDs now and see a phone and I've ever done because the benefits outweigh everything. I'm like you are a wise greater by doing it this route than should it be? The ones in the area which just makes so much more sense. And I was going to ask actually, what's the South Africa piece like what have we got? So in our earlier days we had our product base there. So when we were growing from a staffing perspective you can get very good talent down there for quite good price. So at the moment I've only got ops and ops and marketing down there in Cape Town. All my tech has moved back to the UK. So it was just the right thing. Naturally it felt right to go. We've done well that but I I want UK team here now from a tech perspective. And that's when we started recruiting tech from brand side, from carrier side because they know the industry and they know what Western brands want. So South Africa has done as well but I think our biggest focus now is to try and keep developing a team here in the UK. With a bit of a feeder of my team do come to the UEES and when we've got that customer onboarding or big workshops to do, I then bring whoever's needed into Dubai for a week or two and they'll tend to go can I bring my husband and the kids? I'm like yes, if you pay for your husband and kids I'll get the hotel and you can have a holiday at the same time and I think that's nice. That's a benefit. Because one of my long-standing employees was like don't want to leave a little girl for a week and I'm like ringer. Is that all right? Yeah, but you aren't going to be working though. But bring your husband. He'll have the holiday and like I'm not going to make you work all day every day. Like going experience a holiday alongside work and I think that's where I like to give back to my team. And they see it as a bit of a free holiday. I'm only paying for my husband and my little girl's on the floor so she's free. So I try and do that as much as I possibly can so my team can see the region as well. But soon as I've ever said. Making people close to the boat. I'll go do I go to Saudi or I think I'll pass on that one. Like it's just me then. Yeah, they're like oh no I've not bothered about a Saudi. Yeah, yeah. They're like oh yeah you are able to come. What is Saudi like? Is it like I guess dry and as you know almost like fear? No bad question cut that. So what yeah what I mean what is Saudi like? Saudi is. All I can say is it's different but it is changing. Yeah. So in the UE or in the GCC as a whole this is 2030 vision. Every GCC market has got this 2030 vision of whether that'll be sustainability or entrepreneurial or all these wonderful things. In the kingdom there is this 2030 vision that the the ruler as Colin has set that he wants to be you know the biggest and the best in in the region so that they're going to be hosting I think the World Cup next time. Yeah. I think that's what 2032 is it? The 2031? Because they're building it now. Yeah, they're building it. Is it? Yeah. So there you go. So they want to have the World Cup in Saudi. They want to have all they're obviously doing boxing now. Yeah. So the boxes become a big thing in Saudi. Sports and fitness has come a huge thing in Saudi like high rocks is huge out there now. Yeah. In Saudi because people go can you walk around with your legs out? Well no. But in your compounds you could be anywhere. Yeah. You're all with your Westerners, your friends, your ex-pats. Yeah. So it is getting there and I think I first went there in 2023 and I was a little bit let's call it wet behind the years like I don't really know what to do or say. But I've got more they want Westerners to come. They want to see this is an emerging market. This is a market we're taking seriously. Will it be there by 2030? I don't know. I think there's still a long way to go. Yeah. But I think there's huge potential for the region because they've got a lot of money and they're investing. Yeah. You know I was down there last week in the financial district and it's like Canary Walls. They've got Starbucks, Pret, all the usual high streets we know is our H&M. But you just dress differently. But you know it's again it's a market that I'm like yeah I can see huge benefit. So I'm going to invest and take the market seriously as well. So when people say oh where are you from? I always say the UAE and ever say Dubai so go oh it's another Dubai one. Yeah. So I've gone just from the UAE just you know all right lovely. How long you been living there? Right. Yeah. So. Well I'm going to I'm going to round off and ask you if you were to go back before you started premise. Yeah. What advice would you give yourself? In fact not before you started premise. If you were to go back all the way back to before you started Amazon. Yeah. Back yourself always. Yeah. Don't listen to the outside noise. Everyone's got an opinion. But if you truly believe what you're trying to do and the vision you have for it were million percent back yourself. Yeah. Because you'll always have people who will have doubts for you. They'll always have people say silly what you're doing why you're doing it. But if you truly believe something inside you is telling you I have to go then do that. Back yourself. Yeah. Love that. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Unbelievable. I'm glad. Thank you so much.