How to Spot (and Survive) a Toxic Boss with Mita Mallick

Okay, if you're not already following GirlBoss on Instagram, what are you doing? It's basically a group chat you wish you had at work. No bullshit career advice. Tons of unhinged workplace memes, the latest hot jobs, and conversations about cool women who are absolutely killing it in their careers. And yes, they do giveaways too, so go follow GirlBoss at GirlBoss, you won't regret it. I didn't tolerate anyone screaming or yelling at me. So suddenly you show up in the workplace, this person and I didn't have children yet, like a toddler throwing tantrums, throwing pens in the conference room through a Chanel shoe at a colleague, Mr. Head, true story, publicly privately berating, humiliating, and just using fear as a way to motivate. Welcome back to Invision 2.0, the podcast from GirlBoss where we explore what it really takes and costs to have it all in work, family, identity, and self. I'm your host Amanda Gets, two-time founder, five-time CMO, author of the best-selling book, Toxic Grit, How to Have It All, and actually love what you have. I'm also a mom of three with one on the way, probably shouldn't have worn stripes today, but we're just gonna roll with it. Okay, I think today's conversation might be one of the most powerful conversations we've ever had on this podcast because it's something that I've experienced in almost every single job I've had, and it's something that I hear from so many women that they're experiencing and they don't know how to navigate. Today's guest is Mita Malik, a best-selling author and workplace culture expert who spent her entire career calling out what's broken at work and how to fix it. She's the author of Re-imagined Inclusion and her latest book, which I am so freaking excited about, The Double Emails at Midnight. It dives into the 13 types of bad bosses and how not to become one. Mita, welcome to Envision2.0. I'm so excited to be here. Thank you so much and I love the stripes. Love it. Thank you. Thank you. We're going with it. Okay, so we asked this kick off question to everyone. What does being ambitious mean to you today and how has it maybe changed for you? Envision for me from a young age has always been this fire, this desire, this pursuit of having a life that was better than what my family had. And so for me, both my grandmothers, who I wish I had spent more time with, were both childbrides. So my dad's mother was married when she was 12 years old. Mother's mother was married when she was 10 years old. They were married off. They weren't married. They were married off to men in their 20s. They had very large families. And we're just extraordinary women. And I sit here in conversation with you today. I think that didn't happen in 1800s, right? It's still happening around the world today. And I am what progress for women, what gender progress looks like in less than three generations. And so that's what ambition means to me. It has changed throughout as I've grown. I mean, probably if you talk to me in my 20s, ambition was like me chasing up the ladder, chasing for that corner glass office, chasing titles, chasing more, more, more. And now it is redefining it on my own terms. Yeah. I think that's a common theme that I hear over and over again. So if somebody is in their 20s chasing the corner office, that's okay. And I think that that's a very common thing. And that's what your 20s sometimes is for of the chasing and feeling like you're moving towards these goals. And then your 30s kind of hit. And that's like a transition decade. And then your 40s it and you're like, "Uh, what do I want to do?" So I think that's beautiful. And thank you for sharing that. I'm kind of curious. And if you don't want to answer this, this is totally fine. But how has that generational association with marriage impacted you and your view of marriage? Well, my daughter is now 10. My son is 13. I look at them and I think, gosh, my grandmother was married when I was 10. Right. I have a 12-year-old and a 10-year-old girl. And when you were saying that, I'm like, I can't imagine. Yeah. Marriage is about choice and partnership. And when it becomes about control, then you see those consequences. And so for my grandmother's, they didn't have the type of economic freedom, educational opportunities that I have and then I'm blessed with that my children have. And so when you talk about ambition, that is what it's like, how can I have a better life than they did in honor of that legacy? That's beautiful. Thank you. Okay. Let's talk about bad bosses today. Yes. Because we've all had our fair share. Maybe some of you listening have a bad boss right now and you can't post about it because they might see it. So this today's combo is for you. Okay. You say, first and foremost, bad bosses are made not born. Yes. I have seen this where I've managed people who came from a toxic work environment. And they have absorbed some bad qualities. So what do you actually think creates bad bosses? That's a great question. I've studied three scenarios, three moments when bad bosses are made and bad boss behavior shows up. The first one surprised you were sitting in the US right now. Bad boss behavior shows up when something is happening in the market. Policies, tariff, taxes, there's so much unknown. And so there's stress that we can take upon ourselves and bad boss behavior shows up. Second, in my house, I still don't use the S word. I say, Pupu, Pupu trickles down. So bad boss behavior, you'll get that as a mom, trickles down. Yeah. So it's your first time being a manager and you're working for me. And I am a bad boss. And you don't know any better, just like you said. So you start to absorb those behaviors. And number three, something cataclysmic happens in your personal life. It is an earthquake, loss of a loved one, your sick, someone sick, divorce, infertility issues, heartbreak, moving cities, moving countries. I can go on and on. And what I came to realize in my life is that you cannot just shove grief in the kitchen drawer and then show up at work and everything's going to be okay. And what happens at the kitchen table follows you into the conference table. And so all of those emotions of grief, you will bring in to work. And you will actually that hurt your feeling. You will lash that out onto the people who are closest to you. And the easiest to control quite frankly. I think that last sentence is so important. It's the easiest to control. Yes. If you have uncontrollable circumstances happening in your life, work is sometimes the place that you can absolutely. And you know, what's what's frightening right now is I'm seeing this again. It's from the pandemic days. Listen, guilty has charged. I've been a helicopter parent. The rise of the helicopter manager. And we're sitting right now in a time and place where we have access to so much information. There's so much happening in the world. There's so much hurt and harm. I always joke, I didn't don't issue executive orders. I can't stop them. I don't start or stop words. Wars. But how does that make us feel as humans? We feel I do a real loss of control in my life. And so what's the best way to get control can be at work, right? I need to be on that slack. I know that was due on Monday, but can you tell me today what the status is? Right. Can you add me to that client meeting? All of a sudden, you're looking for that control and that dopamine hit. And so let me get super involved in all the details with my team that I don't need to be. And so we have to watch for that when we feel a loss of control where we're trying to get that control from. What is your advice if someone is listening and they're like, I think I'm kind of doing that because the world feels really uncontrollable. We wake up every day to horrible news that we have no we feel powerless in. And if you feel like you're going into work and kind of my partner and I use the word leaking, like they're leaking all over me, which sounds so gross now that I say that out loud. It's quite a vivid image. Yeah, I work. But like you're leaking all over me. Like can you just like plug up your leaks? But what do you do? Like what is your advice for someone who's taking that into work? Remember why you became a leader. And it's to create more leaders. That's a number one job. Go back into coach mode, go back into teaching mode. We say we don't have enough time. That's the biggest complaint in any relationship. And it work. I don't have enough time for you. Well, all of a sudden, let me stop controlling what you're emailing and what you're sending and watching you. Let me sit down and teach you something. Let me sit down and work through a proposal with you. Let me ask you how I can help support you. You'd be surprised. What kind of response you'll get from that question. What can I do for you today, Amanda? How can I help support you on this client project? And you might say actually me to I don't need you to go through the details of this. But I need you to call this person. I need you to help me follow up on that. I mean, some of the best bosses and I would say good leaders I've worked for are helping with things behind the scenes. Yeah. Before they become crises. Yeah. You're setting up enough operational rhythm. Absolutely. To stay connected. And I would say I worked for CEO who had a phrase that you either measure twice cut once or fuck it and ship it. And that helps me as a leader to be like, no, not everything is a measure twice cut once situation. Let people fuck it and ship it and let them figure out like if it's not going to greatly impact the brand sentiment or create crisis comms, like I don't have to check every caption of every social media post. I'd like let people kind of grow and create that container for them to grow. Let them do their jobs. Yeah. It's it seems so simple and yet so complicated. So complicated. So okay. Let's let's go into the 13 different types of bad bosses. Sure. What are a few that people will immediately recognize? So I should say I have nicknamed all of these bosses on purpose because it's fun. Isn't it fun to have nicknames and villainized people and then we realize, hey, we could be that person. Sure. And also I'm not interested in shaming naming blaming. I hope that these people are all good leaders now. What are some of the familiar ones? The chopper, which is the notorious micromanager, always hovering. Like I'll remember being at my laptop and was like right there. I always walking the floor on Slack, on email and it just jumping into every conversation. And you're like, whoa. And it's like, gosh, you hire people for their talent and expertise. Don't do their jobs for them. And there's nothing like micromanagement to chip away at your confidence and just slowly crush your soul at work. Honestly. And any time I've had a boss that I'm like over here in my lane, doing my job, moving things forward and then they jump in and start like moving something forward in it. It causes confusion. And then you're like, well, I'm just going to step back because it sounds like they're taking over. And then so much loss of momentum happens in that moment. Like I've seen it. So I don't do that to my team because I'm like, I want them to keep going. I don't want to cause this like immediate roadblock. I'll never forget in that moment, one of my colleagues when we were working for the chopper, she said to me, well, what's the point of doing any of the work he's going to redo it? And so that's where disengagement starts. Another one that people will find familiar is Medusa. And this is the boss who up until this point in my life, not my parents, not my brother, not my husband, friends. Head, true story, publicly privately, berating, humiliating and just using fear as a way to motivate. And what I will never understand is that fear actually drives short term results. It kills innovation and it kills growth in the long term. And I just don't understand how more leaders don't understand and grasp that fact. And then also don't stop that behavior when they see people on their team behaving in that way. So the immediate gratification though, because it is short term, like you said, it gets results at one boss do this to me. Like I'm in my 40 now. So I've had a decent amount of bosses. And I was later in my career and it's the only time that I quit on the spot. Like I was just like, I cannot tolerate this. It's like it's not good for mental health. I, let's maybe talk about a few of the bosses that maybe are less recognizable or maybe like maybe some that are harder to spot. I, when I wrote this chapter, I was surprised by how many people were drawn to it. And that is the chapter about the cheerleader. And it is the story of the boss who is toxically positive, filled with toxic positivity. And so there's a lot of controversy about that tea, about that term. Oh my god. Now everything is toxic. I'm sure you've heard this right. But it is this idea of it's like the Instagram reel that doesn't end. Whatever kills you make, whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger. You can do this. You're superwoman. And this person was like the corporate pipe. You would want to be in the office for him because he gave you so much time, attention, cared about you and coached you, mentored you and you're thinking, well, how is that a bad boss? Because everything he spoke about the way in which he set targets was completely delusional. And so I'll never forget and you'll appreciate this as a CMO and I'm a former marketing executive. We get an innovation that was doing gangbusters. People were eating cereal for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I don't advise that. But this innovation is just doing so well. And of course our supply chain partners come to us and say there's this key ingredient that we can't get our hands on. And I'm sure many people in the market can relate to that with prices. They're like, we can't end them like, oh my god. So we have to find substitutes or stop selling this. Oh, we'll get through it. Don't worry. We're going to add a million dollars to the forecast. We'll figure it out. We can do this team and we're like, no, no, we can't do those. Let's be grounded. They're the ingredient is not available. Let's be grounded in reality. But it's like rallying the troops. It's like the fist pumps, the rainbows, the lollipops. You're like, this is not happening. Fast forward a year later, I'm sitting in my review. What do you think happens? We missed the forecast. We couldn't produce the product. And then it's like, I get no merit increase. I get a bonus that doesn't cover my Starbucks addiction. And it's like, well, you miss the forecast. You're like, wait, no, no, we, we, but you also, we told you not to set that target. Yeah. And so this is one to watch for in this marketplace, particularly when we're in uncertain economic times and goals are changing. Metrics are changing. And you have to be able to realign with your team. If you can't get 100% anymore, and it's going to be 70%, listen to what they're saying and be realistic. And that's where I mean, toxic positivity can really burn out a team over time. It feels like that feeds into a people pleasers weakest spot. Oh, yes. So recovering people, please. Please are right here. Yes. But I know this type, as you're talking, I'm like, I can picture certain bosses that I've had that I'm like, oh, they love me and I'm going to keep showing up and going above and beyond because they love me because I have to keep earning their love. Like it is such a slippery slope. But I'm so glad you called this one out because it can feel so good in the moment. But then when you zoom out, you're like, I am burning myself out for a job that may not give me a raise or, you know, I love what you brought up about the people pleaser because one of the tactics of a boss who's filled with toxic positivity is they'll use excessive flattery to actually draw you in into their mission. Let whole like, you can do this. You're super woman. You're like, no, you actually just moved three people off my team or four people. It was ridiculous. I'm like, I cannot achieve what you want me to. It's like if anyone can do it, it's you. I have faith in trusting you. You're our superstar and you're like, oh, my, I'm having a super reaction. I'm like, oh, my God. No, it's like a good thing, though. I think a lot of people hearing this will be like, yeah, I'm being bamboozled and you want to go above and beyond. I'm done. I'm done. I put the cape down, put the, put the ground down. No. I can't continue to be the superhero, especially in these economic times when teams are getting cut and they're like, but the goal hasn't changed. Right. Oh, okay. I have to ask about the title. Okay. Sure. The devil emails it. Yeah. I'm scouting a lot of feedback. Yeah. I feel like we've all either center receive those. I go to bed at nine. So I mostly receive them. Yeah. I'm not a nighttime emailer. But what does this behavior say about a leader? Because many times bosses who email at midnight will be like, well, this is just when I can crank out my work. Don't worry about it. But like, if I get up to pee in the middle of the night and I see those emails, it's done. I'm done. Yeah. I won't sleep for the next two hours. Yeah. Now my brain is back on. So what does it say about a leader? So here's what I'll say about my career. I have never been a nine, one, one operator, a crisis counselor. I haven't worked in the ER. Nothing I have done is life and death. I have sold beauty products, food products and some SaaS software. And so why am I emailing at midnight? That's the question we need to ask ourselves. And I think the biggest challenge right now leaders are facing the biggest challenge today is how do you actually drive teams through intense periods and rest in recover? Nobody's working nine to five. That's not what I'm saying. But if you are consistently treating your teams like an Uber app, you are going to lose your top performers. You will burn them out. And so you think about like, why am I sending this email at midnight? And I talk about this in double ebils, like ask yourself these questions. Why am I doing it? I want to get it out of my inbox onto yours as soon as possible. It's the only time I can work. I am anxious. I can't sleep. I need to be productive. Let me just shoot these things out rather than saying, thinking about how is Amanda going to feel if she gets this text at midnight? Is this really urgent to send right now or could I wait till our Tuesday one on one or our Thursday weekly? Could I put it in the team slack? Could I put it in the Google doc? What is my need to send this so quickly? And it's also living in this hustle culture where our self worth is derived from staying busy and productive and you know, I think one of our biggest fears is individuals is that we're no longer relevant. So staying relevant, staying in control. I think all of those things are really real. I feel this like as a content creator and someone who works the 9 to 5, I think about all the time, like we live in a world where the algorithm truly does penalize us for lack of being there. And so we are just becoming wired to this always on, always showing culture. And it really is scary. And I love to the phrase, like, don't treat your team like an Uber app. And I treat myself like an Uber app. I'm sure you've been guilty as chargers, right? Yeah. That's a huge wake up call. Why do you think companies still tolerate bosses like this when, yes, maybe some short term wins are very visible? But like long term, it doesn't work. People leave. People quit bad bosses. You know what I wish more companies would do here would be an interesting exercise is actually if you could reflect in a PNL, the cost of turnover of talent, right? Exactly what you're saying because the boss who's emailing at midnight, listen, what I will also say is if for some reason as your boss, I needed to get in touch with you at midnight, it would be have to a crisis above crisis. And you would actually pick up because you would know something had happened. And so that's also me protecting my social capital with you. Like you know that if I do that, there's something that you're not crying wall 7 a.m. on Sunday, right? No, exactly not crying wolf. And so going back to what happens in a lot of companies I've studied is I'm going to I'm the bad boss. I've lost 10 people on my team over the last two months. Let's call recruiting. Let's just fill butts and seats, especially if you're in like in a high growth company. Just keep going just keep going. No one's actually diagnosing the problem to say what's going on with me. Why are people leaving her team? And right now research shows the cost to replace someone is two and a half times the salary. And I'm talking about let's say somebody who's like mid career, I'm not even talking to someone who's senior. And so what if we actually reflected that to say this is actually what's costing the company like every time me to lose a sub one on her team, just think about the time to replace that talent with the internal resources. And I wish more people I bet you if we looked at it that way, all of a sudden alarm bells would come off because in a for profit, that's what's driving putting numbers behind anything. I say this all the time. Like how expensive was this meeting? You invited 12 people to this meeting. If I added up their hourly rate, was that really worth $4,000? No. Yeah. And to your point, like, I think about hustle, culture and the grind. And I think something that companies probably tell themselves is like, oh, they weren't cut out for this. You know, that boss, they're going to like grind the team and that person's like in it to win it. And we just got to find people that are like truly in it. It's so it's so fascinating. I know, I know, you don't need another email clogging up your inbox. I have way too many unread emails right now. I could show you my inbox, but I won't. Girlbos daily is a free must read career newsletter delivered to your inbox Monday to Friday. Stay on top of what's happening in the world of work as it unfolds and get helpful tips on everything from navigating layoffs to productivity hacks and becoming a better leader. No spam, no junk, only the most curated content I promise. Join over 100,000 ambitious women who are finding success on their own terms with the link in the show notes or sign up at newsletter.grobos.com. Do you have any bad boss stories? You'd like to share, I'm sure there's tons in here, but like anyone that jumps out at you that kind of sparked this this whole book. Well, one of the ones that you go back to the question, ones that are surprising that people are like, oh, surprising, but I know this boss. Tony has in Tony soprano is one of the bosses that I highlight in the book. Still one of my most favorite shows of all time and my husband loves that nickname, but this is the boss who will kill your career with one phone call and it is loyalty at all costs. It is the boss who's the talent hoarder. They will not let you move off their team because you have become unfortunately indispensable. And I think sometimes in my career too dispensable, so they're not going to replace you. But what I don't understand Amanda about this talent horning in this marketplace is loyalty is dead in our workplaces. It is dead. I remember having an uncle years ago who worked for a large fortune hundred after 30 years of service. He got a gold Rolex those days are over. So that's social contract that an employer had with an employee. I work for you, pension, healthcare, I get a paycheck every two weeks guaranteed. My family's taken care of an exchange. I'll probably work there for 30 years. And you have my unwavering loyalty. So these conversations about bad bosses we likely weren't having because it's like, I don't know, I'm going to just take it and it's transactional. It's trans because I get that paycheck. That's not the case anymore. So I don't understand how employers and bosses still demand this kind of loyalty because now I can only be loyal to a boss in a moment or a team, certainly not loyal to a company. But if you and I enjoyed working together, there's loyalty there. And perhaps in an ex-assignment and an ex company, you'll find me again and work together. But it's really now dependent on relationships and projects and this idea that I'm going to be loyal to someone forever and that they own my career. Yeah. That's the mindset that I still don't understand that leaders have in this environment. You've talked about the fact and you've been very honest and transparent about the fact that you've been a bad boss at times. I think we can all relate to some of those toxic qualities that maybe we absorb unwillingly. Can you tell us more about like when you realize you were doing some of these things? So the irony is I hate being micromanage and I'm a micromanager. So yes, if you worked for me years ago, micromanaging me to right here. Probably that's what you called me. Oh, God, because you know what I realized? I always demanded excellence, but I never coached excellence. And there's a difference. And I think with any of these bad boss behaviors, you can either say it's micromanaging or holding people accountable, but it's the way in which you do it. It's the way in which you present it. And so I'll never forget I worked in beauty as a marketing executive for years and you are trained on a certain aesthetic. And I know you know, right? And I remember being with my team one time and we're going through a deck and they're like, can you explain to me why you changed the image on slide one? Can you explain to us on slide three? Why the color palette is different? Can you explain to us on slide five? Why you changed the font? You see where this is going. It was me redoing all their work and being a micromanaging maniac. And what they did in that moment was they what I talk about is being a mirror. And they actually asked open-ended questions. They didn't say you're micromanaging us because this is the dynamic. If I'm the micromanager and you work for me, it's really hard for you. Given the power dynamics in our relationship, you're like, Mito, you're a micromanager. You got to stop. It doesn't work that way. It's almost like managing up to the micromanager. And so asking a lot of open-ended questions. And I was like, you're right. I changed the image because I didn't like it, but I didn't provide you with enough direction. So you're never going to be able to do that again? Right. So that was one of the biggest gifts. I'll remember that when they would start pointing those things out to me. And what I say to people is if you have a unique expertise, like if I am so obsessed with finding that perfect image of a woman washing her face over a sink, then do it yourself, Mito. Do it yourself and tell your team. Like, here's the scope of the project. Here's the proposal for the agency. I'm going to work on this part because I'm excited about it and I don't want to waste your time. And then when I present to you what I did, you'll understand and I can teach you through it rather than constantly just redoing their work. And then assigning out everything else that needs to be done. I think that that was really powerful learning that many people can take something from today, which is can you explain to me a little more why you did X. Yes. We had a acronym at the public company that where I led brand marketing and it was a big company. We had a phrase called Cuba. It was KUBA. Have you heard this? No, I have not. So it was like an emotional safe word at the company. The K stood for no. Do you know what you need to do? Okay. The you is do you understand why you need to do it? The B is do you believe it's the right thing to do? And then the A was for act. Do you have the resources to act? But it turned into a safe word where it was like short for context. Like, hey, I don't really feel Cuba on this thing. Can you Cuba me a little bit more? And it took the emotion out of it. It was like, I'm at the K. I don't fully, I'm not at the U yet. Like, can you help me understand why we are shifting priorities right now at the last minute or and it just like I am, I learned so much in that environment about company safe words where you could remove emotion so so that anyone can come up and be like, "Can you kuba me on this?" I love that. Feel free to say that. I love that. Okay. Let's say someone is listening. They're dealing with a toxic boss right now. Where do they start? So when I was writing this book, I decided to dedicate it to my children. And I have a lovely note, and the last line is, "When you come to your father and I to complain about your bad boss, I'm going to hand you this book." And the point of that is to say, as a mother, friend, sister, coach, leader, I'm not going to advise that someone quits every time they have a bad boss. You can't do that. That's a privilege. I mean, you can, but it is a privilege that most people cannot afford to do. So the question is, only you can understand the context in situation. If you are working for a person like Medusa or the sheriff who I include in my book, and if you feel that you were losing pieces of yourself every day, and you look in the mirror six months later and you don't recognize yourself, your friends don't recognize yourself, your partner, your family, that is a situation where I say, you need to get out, plan on you to work the plan and work it fast. You need to get out sooner rather than later. But if you are working for micromanaging meter, right? Context situation matters. She's annoying. She's difficult, but she's not throwing a Chanel shoe at you, right? Right. This is the spectrum. When I coach people to do the following, you're going to have an expiration date. You're going to say, I'm going to work for micromanaging meter for eight months. What I want you to do today is I want you to get out your resume and I want you to pretend that eight months is over. So write that section on the resume now so you can use that energy to say, I'm going to work for micromanaging meter. I'm going to do it for eight months, but I'm going to actually put out into the universe, the reason why I'm doing it because you're all the things I'm going to learn. Here's what I'm going to leave. So then it's like this energy as well. Okay. Now this eight months is meaningful, even though I'm working for a boss, our styles are different. They're, they're, they might be capping my potential, all the things that go through her head, but let's use that as then a launching pad into what we're going to do next. It's a short term career vision board. Yes. Absolutely. This is what I'm going to achieve over the next few months. Go do it so that you get like, exercise, right? Write it out. Write those bullets out. Leaving isn't an option, which we just kind of talked about. What are some ways to survive without completely burning out in that moment? So even if you put the expiration date, you're like eight months, is it, is it something you can solve by managing up if you have the managing up, Mita, or what are what's your advice? So there's a few things you can certainly try to manage up. It depends on again, sort of, you know, what I keep coming back to is the foundational piece of being a good leader is having self awareness. But if the person doesn't have self awareness, you can do as much open ended questions as you want, but they're just not going to get it. So you have to think about how can you manage up to them? Are there other people that you trust in the organization that you can go to? They're peers, like you go to meet us peer, go to go to other people who've worked for her to get advice and guidance. That's important. Are there other projects and things that you can do that would spark joy at work? Cross-functional projects. Is there an employee resource group? Is there a task force? Or else that you can get involved in or not suggesting that you take on more work to take on more work? But are the things that would spark joy? You know, we talked earlier about how much God the world feels so heavy right now. I keep thinking to myself, just be a positive light for others. We can do that at work. You can mentor. You can guide. You can help someone else who's struggling. And then the thing that I always think about in my moments that I've worked for about boss is how do I keep my confidence intact? And so thinking about outside of your work, is there something that sparks joy for me? It's writing, it's volunteering, spending time with my children, spending time with friends, rediscovering a child at hobby, finding a new hobby, things that can help you continue to maintain your confidence and make you feel fulfilled? I think that's really important when you're in an environment that could be either a bad boss or actually something that's extremely toxic that you're trying to figure out how to get out of. If someone leaves the toxic boss, is there, like, do you also see this kind of trauma, like, almost like post breakups? You have to kind of grieve and work through that. Like, do you see that in your coaching? Absolutely. I see that in my own book. People have said to me, have you really had this many bad bosses? And I was on a podcast with Christo a year ago. And he's like, I'm going to ask you this question. I don't feel comfortable. I don't know if you feel comfortable asking it. Were you attracted to some of these situations? And it was absolutely true. People pleasing, bullying, being bullied as a child, all of the things that I was attracted to some of these situations where I was okay with not having boundaries, with going above and beyond. So yes, did I have these many bad bosses? Yes, because you know when you work in large corporations, you can have four or five bosses in a year. Things change. And I also think it was attracted to some of these situations. And so I've been thinking a lot about that as well. And so, and your question about trauma in the workplaces real, we don't talk enough about it. There have been some situations where I've run from one bad boss to another, or I didn't given up myself enough time to heal. And most of us can't afford to do a six month sabbatical from one job to another. But also recognizing I came with emotional baggage from one job to another. I assumed negative intent, even though the boss wasn't a bad boss. I also got triggered by things that they was just like, oh my god, they're slacking me. Oh my god, what's happening? It's like, no, they're just asking a question, right? But it's like that, the trauma of what you've experienced. And so to think about, go in with positive intent and to try to think about how you can set up a new and healthy relationship with this new boss. Yeah. It's like, am I really being chased by a tiger or did my boss just slap me? Yes, exactly. Yeah. Something that really jumps out at me is the self-awareness piece. Both does the boss have self-awareness and have the capacity to have that self-awareness because if not, you're kind of at a. You're against a concrete wall. It's going to be really hard to make any progress. But then also the time you have to take of the self-awareness of yourself, of why if you keep finding yourself in this state, keep asking yourself, what is in me that I keep falling into patterns where I'm working for someone that knows how to completely manipulate, absolutely. A hundred percent. Okay. Last question, we're going to the rapid fire. What do the best leaders you've worked with? Because obviously you've probably worked with some amazing leaders as well. What do you see that they do differently? Their coaches. They teach, they train, they have time for you. They don't kick you in your down. They don't call you stupid. They don't point out mistakes they know you've made. They have your back. They actually are behind the scenes doing things that you'll never know because they avoided a big crisis or they put your name up for an award or they put your name up for promotion or they pushed you, guided you. One of the best bosses I ever had, I'll never forget. It was going into an exec team meeting to present on a Tuesday morning. It would be working on this deck and then he called me into his office Monday night. I was like, "Not again. Let's just get this year, submitted the pre-read. Let's get it done." He said to me, "I want to talk to you about who's going to be in the room and give you a read of the room. First time anyone has ever done that for me." He said to me, "The CEO just so you know we're in the middle of a potential acquisition, he's going to be distracted in and out." The CFO is pissed at the, she's mad at the head of supply chain for this, but it was like, "Wow." All that context that you have ahead of R&D is really excited about this project. She's sold. You're like, "I had no idea, but I had never thought about that. These individuals, these leaders, they're not gods, they're human. They have emotion. They have feelings. There's inner play on that exec team." Sometimes you're going in presenting something and it's not even about you. It's about all the other emotions in the room. That was the first time someone had sat me down and had me think about, "What's the read of the room?" I was like, "Wow." I've had it been really lucky. That's amazing. A lot of great bosses. Okay, let's move to a little rapid fire. Okay. I am so bad at keeping these sharp, but we're going to try. Okay. "I guess leadership, Ick." Boyle the ocean, build the plane as you fly it, all the corporate jargon. I can't. I've been guilty. One thing you should never tolerate from a boss. Disrespect where there's smoke, there's fire. The first time they'll do it, they'll do it again. One thing people should tolerate more at work. It's what an underutilized tool just to say, "I'm sorry." That doesn't mean you can mispronounce my name purposely. Many times a month or mistake me for the other brown woman repeatedly. I'm not saying that. There are moments where it's like you've caused hurt and harm and you're not actually changing. But there are honest mistakes that happen and I wish we would show each other more kindness and grace in our life. Would you rather a bad boss with a great team or a great boss with a bad team? I'm going to go with a great boss with a bad team because they should be able to coach and upskill that team or make the changes necessary. Love. Finish the sentence. The worst boss I ever had called me Muhammad. Rename to me. Yeah. Holy shit. - That was the sheriff, yeah. - I'm sorry for that. - Thank you. - Finish the sentence, the best boss I ever had. - Made me love my job every day. - I love that. - Meeta, thank you so much. I really feel like this episode, people are going to get sparked to either get curious about themselves, get curious about their bosses, go get your books. So if somebody wants to get this book or follow along from Orwin's Dom, where can they find you? - You can find the book on Amazon, the double emails at midnight, what good leaders can learn from bad bosses, you can find the book, Barnes & Noble's, your local independent bookstore, and you can find the online link too. - All right, that's another episode of Envision 2.0. I'm Amanda Gueth, and we'll see you next time. (upbeat music) (upbeat music)