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Speaker 2Screw Up Your Kids podcast. So, pour yourself a cuppa, find a comfy seat and enjoy the conversation. This is episode 98 and I get to interview the incredible Kat and Sarah of Sleep Mums. Now, what I love about the conversation that we had is, that actually, the idea was that we were going to talk about routines. To routine or not to routine. But, it was just such an easy conversation. We went all over the place. We talked about sleep, we talked about routines. And what is so incredible about Kat and Sarah is that they're both experts in their field. Kat, QB, is a BBC broadcaster. Sarah, carpenter, is a sleep expert. But they're also mums. And they're vulnerable, honest mums about the challenges of parenting, the challenges of whether we routine or we don't routine, about sleep, about the characteristics that we bring into our journey as parents. And so, I just, it was such a lovely conversation. And I think there's some really helpful insights, even for me with older children. And the work that I do with families, I got so much out of it. So, I really hope that you enjoy this podcast. Now, as ever, if you enjoy the episode, I would love it if you could follow and review the podcast. So, that others. Others can find us and we can spread the love. We do share details for Kat and Sarah. So, if you want to go off and listen to their podcast episodes, which are incredible, then we've got the link as also the link to their book. So, until next time, here's Kat and Sarah. Well, I am so excited because we're talking sleep. But we're talking. We're talking sleep from the experts. Okay. So, this is going to be a monumentally helpful podcast episode. I'm joined by Kat and Sarah's sleep mums. Oh, goodness me. I'm in slight fandom here. So, welcome, welcome.
Speaker 3Hi. Thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 2Oh, I'm so excited. We're going to be talking and I'm going to sort of put it broadly. And then I'm going to sort of drill down with some more questions. But I think this real interesting question around. So, you come home with this tiny little baby bundle. And I'm guessing sleep is probably one of the first massive challenges that we have around this. And there seems to be these real very distinct camps of do you routine or do you not routine? So, I've got a bit of a broad question. But what are your thoughts?
Speaker 4So, I think, you know, it comes up at different points. And I don't think. It is one simple answer. There are times in baby's life that you are going to routine and times that you're not going to routine. And there's also times that you'll find that you're routining without realizing that you've been routining. So, it's not something that you need to make a conscious decision about until you think, okay, this isn't working. And now I need to make a change. And now I'm going to make a conscious decision to do something to make this change. But I genuinely. I actually hate the idea. I hate the idea that people come home with a brand new baby and panic that they have to do routine.
Speaker 3Yeah, I think there's so much going on when you first come home, as you say. And, you know, the last thing really you should be thinking about is getting yourself into a stringent routine, if that's not for you. But for some parents, actually, that gives them some comfort.
Speaker 2Do you think that this whole notion of routine or not to routine comes. Is driven by our need? You know, I. I'm quite an ordered individual. I get safety from being a control enthusiast. So, does routine. Is it driven by us more? Or does it tend to then be driven by the child?
Speaker 4I think it's. I was going. Both. Sorry, Kat. I think for some people who love a routine, like Kat, then I think it can be driven by the parent. But equally, for some people who. Who really don't think they like a routine, just by meeting baby's needs, you are in a routine. So, that side of it, that more gentle routine side, I suppose, is dictated by baby.
Speaker 3Yeah, I think there is an element of control. And that's why I say for some parents, they might find comfort in it. Because, you know, in the early days of parenthood, you feel a little bit lost at sea, cast away. What do I do? And so, the idea of, okay, these things have to happen at this time. Can give you a little bit of comfort. Can make you feel sort of more anchored into what you're doing. Or make you feel like you're doing a good job. Because you know, to some extent, that you're meeting needs. But yeah, of course, the needs are the baby's. So, it's also them that is creating the routine.
Speaker 2And I love the way that you talked about that routine as well. Both of you. This idea that, you know, the routine is dictated by you meeting the child's needs. Whereas, I think quite often. Well, I don't know about you. But I tend to think of routine being, and they'll go to bed at this time. And then we'll do this. Then we'll do that. But actually, just by meeting our baby's needs and our child's needs, we're actually creating a routine. Definitely. So, I wonder if we need to change. I think some of the
Speaker 3most important parts of the routine, we would say, are the bookends of the day. The start and the end. And then sort of how it gets created within that, obviously, is whether you're talking about. A baby or a child is to do with feeds and sleep. But if you have those two points in the day where you can keep consistent, that's kind of the most important thing.
Speaker 2Would you say, then, that that's probably the best starting point? And then allowing that fluidity in the middle?
Speaker 4I think there comes an age when it's the best starting point to have your start of the day and end of the day. But I don't think you can have that when you've got a newborn, new newborn. That does come with time. But yes, that's. It is definitely the best way to then have hooks throughout your day to start from. I think initially, when you first bring your baby home, your hooks are your feeds, because that is the most important thing. Far more important than anything is feeding your baby. So, if you've got your feeds in a sort of scheduled pattern, then everything else is going to naturally come in around that. And you don't need to think about anything else. At that stage, feeding is the key thing.
Speaker 3I think a lot of parents, you said, you know, you think about sleep at the very beginning, like, oh, my God, what am I going to do? And I'm so tired. But as Sarah says, the best piece of advice that I think Sarah gives is, you know, focus on the feeds and everything else will fall into place at the beginning. You know, that's the important thing. And then you can worry about all the other stuff and sleep later.
Speaker 2That's such a different shift, isn't it? In the way that you're thinking, because actually, if you're thinking about the feeding, that's a whole different ballgame than, oh, my goodness me, they're barely sleeping. It's a, what does that do to our behavior and then our expectations and then how things naturally progress that shift?
Speaker 4I think it massively alleviates stress and anxiety in parents when they switch that focus, because sleep isn't something that you can achieve without. So if you go in thinking, OK, I've got to get my baby to sleep, of course, your anxiety levels are rising. You know, you panic and that's it just escalates very, very quickly. Whereas if you give a new parent the focus of feeding, they can achieve that, whether that's, you know, whatever form of feeding they decide to choose or is dictated by the baby's needs. They can achieve that feed. And that is key to then calming everybody down. Relieving the anxiety and giving them a focus that they can achieve.
Speaker 2I think I've just had a bit of an aha moment. I'm a big Oprah fan. So that's hence the old aha. Okay. So I'm also guessing that different children, our own children, so siblings will have different needs around food. And so actually by focusing our attention on feeding. We don't get caught in the trap that, oh, my eldest used to sleep straight through the night. What am I doing wrong with my middle one or my youngest? Is that right?
Speaker 4Definitely a hundred percent, a hundred percent. And every you're totally right. You know, every baby's needs are different and how they accept those needs being met. But the feeding is the one thing that everybody can do and has to do in some form. And it just, you know, you, it takes that. comparison are we, because you're a tech that box and i'm
Speaker 2guessing we understand that our children you know i've got you know my daughter used to love having fish pie when she was little my child did my son did not but actually when you think that compact that sort of taste buds we we're quite okay with that aren't we the difference is that's a much better framing of things than this this child doesn't sleep in that one when the focus shifts to this idea about feeding there's also
Speaker 3a lot of more conversation around sleep needs i think these days as well um generally we're talking about you know older older children too but the the sleep needs of a baby can vary as much as the the the taste buds if you like of the fish pie in the north of
Speaker 2fish pie yeah so talk because obviously what quite often happens is we come home we've got we've bought books we've reading books we're looking at how much to sleep we think our child needs or or what how much sleep the book is telling us to do how much variability is there around children's sleep patterns that we need to sort of be accepting really early on rather than getting caught in that comparison of maybe our antenatal friends whose babies are sleeping through the
Speaker 4night there's huge differences there um you know i think i actually did a post recently on social media about this and um around about the sort
Speaker 3of social media
Speaker 4i know around about the six to nine month mark babies the difference in sleep over 24 hours can be between four and six hours so when you when you actually say that to a parent you know suddenly it's like a light bulb moment for them it's like okay so jimmy down the road that's sleeping 12 hours a night that's because that's what that particular jimmy needs but jimmy down the road jimmy up the road who's only sleeping 10 hours a night it's not wrong it's not too little it's just the sleep needs are so drastically different and they can also be split so drastically different across the day so between your naps and your overnight as long as you're still or your baby still meeting those needs it can show in such a variety of ways and they can be met in very very different ways throughout the day and night
Speaker 2are those differences in need met are those because of temperament what what are the things that that create these big variations in sleep needs so just
Speaker 4like you and i you know i mean compare cat and i for example our sleep needs are worlds apart i need a good eight hours and i'm happy with a broken four so we're very extreme but you know babies also babies and children have those needs i mean between our six children alone they're the sleep needs for those six children are just drastically varied and that actually would be really interesting to do a bit of a graph or something because our children over you know we've got four children who overlap in ages quite um closely so out of the sex to actually compare those sleep needs now they're all being met every every single child is getting what they need but the it varies drastically i think
Speaker 3there's a thing around needs as well in that some of them can be a bit interchangeable you know when when we're very tired we we can help you you know it's about fuel you know so the main main needs that you need to meet for a baby or for a child and for an adult really although they do get more complex essentially but you know you're talking about sleep needs their their feeds or solids needs and their um stimulation and that's active play and rest as well um and so those needs can there can be a bit of interaction between them obviously you know sometimes having food is stimulation is as well it can fulfill a different part of it sometimes when you're very tired you need something to eat sometimes if you're very hungry if you have a nap it will help you know that it isn't quite as always so clear-cut and we often talk when we're talking about sleep needs and parents are trying to drop naps or um or if they're trying to keep their kids awake or something they can you can use food to help them through that and that is because some of those needs can be interchangeable you just obviously don't want to change them up too much like um i know sarah knows i've said this before but my eldest whenever she's going to bed she always says she's hungry and i'm like you're not hungry you're tired it's your your brain is telling you that you need something and it's sleep i promise you you've had a you've had a lot of sleep you've had dinner you've had supper you're definitely not hungry and um it is but she confuses those needs in her head i think and we do as well we know if you've maybe had a big night out doesn't happen so often now or if you are very tired when you've got a small baby that you will reach for food or maybe a coffee or something to try and fulfill that need of sleep that you're
Speaker 2lacking that that's so interesting about that confusion between that need and the fact that as we say that it can be very individual whether that stimulation whether that food then ends up becoming a stimulation and actually keeps you awake or whether it's then used as that sleeping how do we begin to tune into what our child needs so that we're responding to that rather than what we think we should be doing in some
Speaker 3ways that's where a routine comes in handy because it is kind of like having a crib sheet to those needs and so if you start off with a routine you then start to let you know if we're talking about babies obviously it depends on the age of your child but if you if you have a baby and you start with a routine then you can start to learn their cues and what they're trying to tell you because you have that crib sheet and then you can kind of learn more and go off book if you like and go go a bit kind of renegade and chuck away the routine because you are more in tune with what they need because you've been able to hone that by by fulfilling their needs through a routine it's really important
Speaker 4to have those off-piece days because that builds everybody's confidence as well and because baby is so in tune with the routine they will still meet their needs they might be a little bit varied you know they might not nap as long as you're out and about and things like that but actually having off-piece days means that everybody's confidence rises it means that you can go on holiday you can go away you can do all these things be confident not be worried everyone's needs are being met and everything goes smoothly so a routine is great but falling out of the routine is also a really big positive
Speaker 2do you see a lot of parents becoming anxious around routine and then not going off-piste because of that does that is that is there an element of actually do you know what i just don't want to disturb this i'm just gonna
Speaker 3let cat answer this one um i think it's quite interesting just kind of going back to what you said in that about we were talking about control right at the start i think if you go from what you know some people have very controlled jobs before they become parents or maybe they don't maybe they are the opposite and then they become a parent and they sort of feel that they need to rein that back in and yeah i would hold my hands up i i floundered or i felt like i floundered so much at the start once i did get a routine and and it worked for us as a family i was absolutely terrified of of letting that go and i think that's a really i think that's a really good point and it has taken probably well i know it has taken three children and a lot of counseling from sarah to to give me the confidence to be more flexible within those things and yeah i think you can massively get in a rut because quite often when you do go off routine when you have been following one it will go tits up and that then gives you the fear and actually what i didn't realize at the time was that that was okay and that i would be able to pull it back but i suppose and sarah and i've talked about this a lot if you're the main caregiver it is often you that takes the brunt of that and so if you've got something that's working for you you can be very reluctant to give that up that that's just my own experience
Speaker 2sarah did you want to add anything to that
Speaker 4no i think um you know it is something that we see a lot of and you know i think that's a really good point and i think i probably struggle to remember what i was like actually when i first became a mom i i know that routine was important to me i feel like my memories of it i was quite flexible within my routine but if you ask somebody else i probably wasn't um you know i would have had my panics as well but it is it's something that i talk to parents about a lot and when i'm working with people and i generally work with them for a month and within that month i make people do things so i make them do an out and about routine and i think that's a really good point and i think that's a nap i make them go out for dinner i try and make them go away for a night so you know you have to really um support that anxiety recognize it and help them through it but it's it's definitely very common and it is
Speaker 2going back to what kat was saying it's being able to recognize the characteristics of you as an individual and if you know it may well be that you've you've come from a job where you're used to routine you're used to knowing what to expect and maybe you quite love it like the free flow that happens initially but also it can be that you're then actively seeking that because it's so much so inherently part of who you are so I think that that's it being able to kind of recognize that and I know that you both advocate a lot for this notion that no routines look the same in different families how do we avoid being sucked into comparison god
Speaker 4I wish we had the answer i think you know that we talk we talk about that a lot don't we like i we'd love it if parents could just support each other if they stopped shaming if they stopped comparing that would be the dream but yeah any ideas from anyone else we'd take well i just
Speaker 3i think that that mantra of not my monkeys not not my circus and you know to to focus on yourself and and what you're doing and what we believe really is that that comes down to having confidence in what you're doing because then if you're confident in what you're doing you're able to go okay that's for them and this is for me and so massively what we focus on in the podcast and in our book is is hoping that we can give parents the information that will allow them to have confidence in themselves and in their children and in their children and in their children and that's why the the sort of the tone of the podcast and the tone of the book was so important to us because we didn't want it to be prescriptive we didn't want it to be talking down to parents like they're no daft um you know that it's something that they can then take that information with and then run with it and that will then give the confidence that will hopefully allow them to not feel like they need to compare as much yeah i think
Speaker 2you're absolutely right confidence is crucial and confidence for some parents i'm guessing comes from information and that's where the book is so key because it gives that information
Speaker 3yeah and also it comes from doing things and it and it working i guess too um some of those things are things you have to work out yourself you know if you're talking about settling techniques that you're going to use on your baby they're going to be different for different children and finding like though you know you said you had an aha moment earlier on those aha moments in parenting are are also what give you the confidence and the strength you know and and those that those you know your relationship with your baby or your child is forged in those aha moments and often in the middle of the night you know that first time that you manage to settle them doing something you know that is like you know if you're trying to um settle them in their in their their own sleeping space where we we talk about using the sleep sleep mom sugar a lot and that was an aha moment for me when when i started shuggling my baby's bottom and she went to sleep and i wasn't feeding her 20 times a night and getting no rest and and i and there have been many aha moments following that you know not related to sleep we're talking about we've been talking about anxiety and stuff as well that you know when when my she was probably about three starting having a really big tantrum in the car on the way to something and suddenly going i and i maybe had been a really big tantrum in the car on the way to something and suddenly going i and i maybe had been a going to do you know that's where this has come from and having those moments where you understand your child are incredible but they should they are also the things that give you confidence sorry i feel like i went on off in a very big sort of monologue no i love
Speaker 2that tell me what is shuggling i love this this was like
Speaker 4news to news to me i think it was news to cat as well though that this is such a scottish thing and now so many people ask about it i know that you don't you're not on camera yet but imagine this is your baby and you literally just put a nice firm hand on their bottom and give them a good old sugar so if you imagine when they're in the pram or you're rocking them they're getting that movement and so it's just recreating that movement when they're in their cot or in their safe sleep environment to give them that comfort and you just and shuggle them off to sleep i love that
Speaker 2we're gonna have to share this video well we will share that clip of sarah doing it but of course that makes sense isn't it because when our children get put in a car when they go into a pram or a push chair that movement is so helpful in terms of putting them to sleep and yet when they're in their beds or their cots they don't there's no motion they're they've
Speaker 4got the motion in the womb they've got you know you you never pick up a baby and don't but you never pick up a baby and don't but you never pick up a baby and don't bounce or move or something so naturally they are so used to that and it's just supporting them when they are in their cot so that they feel safe and they feel something familiar
Speaker 2oh i love that can i ask so we've we've talked about babies i want to start talking about older children and one of the common things that i get asked about and some of the common challenges that parents have is that how is that settling so we've now got a child that's they're hungry they're thirsty they're what are the in your experience all the things
Speaker 3can you give us some tips
Speaker 2about how do we what is in your experience some of the best ways to settle a child so that we can help them as best as possible for them to go to sleep in their own bed
Speaker 4so the really key things are support you need to support your older children if they feel like they're just being left to go to sleep by themselves or left when they wake up then the anxiety builds and it becomes pretty messy so our top tips would be using visual aids it's really important that they understand and they know what the expectation is so we both love photos i love a polaroid photo so take actual pictures like a visual timeline yeah so take actual pictures of your child doing the things that you would like them to do including a photo of them sleeping in bed and have that somewhere that they can see it and you can refer back to it so you can talk about it during the day not necessarily at bedtime because as we know that can add to the anxiety but if it's something that they can go and check during the day and they get that comfort from seeing it and then as they do the activity so you might pick five that it could be have a bath clean your teeth read a book put your pajamas on hop into bed and they can see themselves doing those things and so they can see themselves doing those things and so they can see themselves doing those things so they can then take those things off the wall as and when they've done them and the very last thing that happens is once they're asleep you remove the one of them sleeping and just pop it next to their bed so that when they wake up in the morning they see that they are and they know that they've achieved that so they instantly get that excitement because they've done what they knew they were meant to do but actually explaining that and trying to talk to children without any visuals can be really difficult for them to take on board what we're actually asking them and what our expectation is so just keep that in mind and i'll see you in the next video just using lots of visual aids lots and lots of support lots of positive reinforcement i can't tell you how many people come to me and say i just lose the rag when they don't sleep and that's understandable but try and cling on to even the smallest positive thing and use that as your focus when you're talking about the negatives so really encourage them and really focus on that one little positive and just drop in maybe tonight you could try this instead so the actual thing that is the biggest issue for you you talk about it in the smallest possible way
Speaker 3i use a bit of a hack for for sarah's visual timelines because i'm not quite as crafty as her and um my i use my fingers so you know they we fold them down when we've done the thing so it might be you know having a bath and then the last thing will be me saying you know kissing them and giving them a cuddle good night and that's also quite a nice way of them being able to physically do something and they're not going to be able to do it themselves so i think it's really important as we move through through the process but also as and that's obviously for older children but also as sarah says that's that's what we can do for them to help them within kind of going to bed and going to sleep but it's also so important to find the things you need to do for you to make that process a smooth one as sarah's saying often we feel we we lose our rag when you know we want them to be asleep or we're tired or we've not had dinner and and sarah and i talk about this a lot know what you need to do to make that process a smooth one to be able to get through that process as calmly as possible because that can be key particularly with older children i think that's true probably right up until their their teens i guess because that whole that whole thing is that whole energy around bedtime is so important because if it if it escalates that can completely derail it yeah
Speaker 2and thinking about it from both both the perspectives i love the idea that the photographs of your of the children doing it themselves but i also love the hack that you've got cat with your fingers it just shows that we don't have to we can just adapt and we can modify what works for us as as a parent and but i also love how crucial it is about making sure that we understand what we need in order to make that happen so can i just ask as a question around how do we make sure that we get sleep we've talked a lot about our children and our babies what what are your top tips around our sleep from those early days right and right the way through how do we make sure that we get enough sleep ourselves a lot of
Speaker 3the things we recommend for for babies and children are exactly the same as what what we need as adults we need you know consistent times to go to bed and to get up and in the day we need a bed a healthy bedtime routine ideally that doesn't involve screens and and social media for for the last wee while um you need to think about your sleep environment you know is it good temperature or do you like your pillow like uh you know is is it quiet is it dark all of the things you would you would be thinking about in terms of a baby or or a child's room and and and I think that that that's kind of about having good uh habits around sleep but also prioritizing it for yourself you know that we can feel quite kind of martyrish I think as parents um of course there's going to be a lot of you're going to lose sleep um when you become a parent but that also doesn't mean that you can't say I need this and to ask for help to try and get it I'm a terrible napper everyone was like you know says the sleep when the baby sleeps it's just not realistic in fact it's ridiculous um you you know you baby sleep for sort of 18 hours a day and also have a tendency to like fall asleep in Tesco or something which you cannot do um so you know um but but finding the right the right environment and the right space for you to be able to sleep or to get some rest is so important and to to make sure that that people know the people around you hopefully you have support the people around you can help you get that it's
Speaker 4key to ask for help and even if you're not sleeping it's taking the time to rest um but also being a little bit selfish as well I think you know it's not always sleep that's needed to make you sleep so if for you you need to ask for help so that you can tidy the house so that you can then relax and sleep that's okay too I think people do have a tendency when they're offering to help when you've got babies and if it's sleep related then the offer is I'll take the baby while you go and sleep and actually that can just add to the anxiety so actually just thinking about what you really need in order to get that sleep overnight or get that rest or downtime and just yeah be a bit selfish about that
Speaker 2yeah and definitely asking for help because sometimes you you would as you said Sarah if things were tidied you might then be able to fall asleep because that's less of the to-do list in your head that then means that you can then rest so it is so crucial about asking for help why do you think okay this is completely off-piste question um but I'm going to ask anyway I personally believe that men have a whole different filter when it comes to sleep in terms of hearing babies crying and then waking up is there a difference I think that's a
Speaker 4really hard one I see so many clients I see so many people and we talk about it and I don't think it's as clean-cut as men sleep more um or can sleep better like I clients that I've got just now the dad is the one that gets up every night and he wakes up and mum will sleep through anything I mean literally anything she will sleep through it and dad is the super sensitive one and jumps up and deals with it so I guess I don't know I don't think it's I guess I see a lot more people on the average and you know I'd say yeah I I see a difference
Speaker 3I I wonder if it's a little bit about who acts on what is happening so I am very aware that my husband probably does wake up to all the shouts and cries but the two differences are he chooses to slightly pretend that he's still asleep and the the child usually says asks for mama so he kind of thinks it's not for him but in a different family that setup might be asking for for for dada or whatever so our daddy um uh but that that's how it is um is that more common if you're a main carer I don't know Sarah Sarah sees more than people I guess but it probably is
Speaker 4I think it drastically varies as well because I think for some children you know if dad is the one who's out at work all day and mum is the main carer then they get so excited when dad comes home that they do actually ask for them overnight so I don't think there's a straight answer to this one it would be an interesting study though well there is
Speaker 3a study that I think says that women lose more sleep in the first year of parenthood than men but I mean you know you've got to tie in things like feeding and stuff like that if it's an average so yeah
Speaker 2and as you say it's the causes of that is it that they are just as sensitive to the hearing but that there's a different in terms of action so Sarah thank you given that you have seen so many you've got a much larger sample and apologies to trying to miss some
Speaker 3bus bust some myths
Speaker 2definitely now you have written a book tell me about the book because I think that's so helpful for parents who are really struggling with with um what was your kind of driver what did you want to make sure that you got across in that book for parents and why they should be reaching out and buying it right
Speaker 3now it was really really important to us that as I think said that we wrote a book that was honest that had real solutions for for parents and that wasn't kind of talking down either um in all of our chapters we kind of have um it's not quite homework it's just what you can do next and we have you know what you need what you can do for survival and what you can do if you want to to change things and and people really really respond really well to that they want option they want to have the information but they also want options and we also wanted it really to to be very straightforward for people to kind of dip in and out of in in those sleep deprived months of of early parenthood it's called sleep better baby it's available in all good bookstores online and in person and um yeah we're we're we're really proud of it it's um was an absolute labor of love we we got the book deal the month when my third child was born so we had a very intensive uh year he had a very intensive first year of life as well because he spent a lot of time with sarah and me writing but thankfully he was a very forgiving writing companion but it did also mean that I was living it at the time that we were writing which I think really helped
Speaker 2too yeah and the reviews are very much that it has been life-saving and so kind of instrumental in getting parents through and what and what is so great is this idea that you can use it for in that moment but you can also then use the book if you want to be looking at making some changes forward planning it because quite often with books we can end up reading them and then feeling that we're doing something wrong rather than I need some help right now in fixing this particular issue and then I might then also look and I think that's what's so incredible about this book it's a really practical whatever you might need and tailored to this idea that it's very individual within families it's not all the same and we will be sharing the the links to where you can buy the book so that you can kind of get that piece of that security and that safety and that really excellent incredible advice cat and sarah it has been an absolute pleasure I think we could probably talk more about that in the next couple of weeks and maybe we should have you back on talking about something out some other things as well but can you tell the listeners where we will be sharing links but just in your own voices where is the best place for other parents who are listening to this podcast to connect with you to hear your podcast to connect with you socially and and all across all the ways that they can connect
Speaker 3um but I think that the best place to find us particularly if you're listening to this podcast is our podcast the sleep moms uh you you just find it by searching the sleep moms there's over 70 episodes on there not just about baby sleep we have a fantastic series which we're also going to have uh dr mary hannan called the a disease um sleep moms a disease where where we cover lots of different subjects uh about parenthood and yeah the the podcast is I think our spiritual home that's where everything came from and uh the book uh sleep better baby as you said you can buy it online or in bookstore we are on social channels at the sleep moms we are on instagram facebook um we dabble in tiktok and youtube and um I think once I tried to set up a pinterest board I mean this is you know I'm feeling kind of like having spoken to you really that we we should be kind of shredding away some of that um but we are in all those places and we'd love you to come and find us we keep it judgment free and um hopefully funny and useful as much as possible and we also have a website the sleep moms.co.uk
Speaker 2well thank you kat thank you sarah so much and here's to a good night's sleep
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