How to See Jesus in All of Scripture (Nancy Guthrie)

I kind of wondered, can I really find a genuine, authentic connection to Jesus Christ in every passage that I'm going to work through over 365 days? I don't think any of these statements about Jesus ended up being a stretch or that they didn't arise from the passage. Now they might not be right there on the surface, but I think they're all faithful and genuine. Nancy Guthrie teaches the Bible at her home church, Cornerstone Presbyterian Church, in Franklin, Tennessee, and at conferences around the country and around the world. She's also the author of The Holding Christ, a daily guide to seeing Jesus in all of Scripture from Crossway. Well, Nancy, thank you so much for joining me again on The Crossway Podcast. Thank you. You keep having me and maybe you're just hoping I'll finally get better, you know? Not at all. We're excited to talk with you every time we get a chance. I wanted to start off just by maybe going back into your own history, your own life. So I'm sure many of our listeners, probably most of our listeners, would be familiar with the idea that Christ is in some meaningful way the center of the Bible, that the whole Bible story ultimately is pointing to Christ in a very meaningful way. And yet sometimes we can be confused as to how you actually read the Bible in that way. So take us back in your own life to when you first had maybe that light bulb moment of, wait a second, Jesus really is the center of this story. Yeah, I'm someone who grew up in church, you know, my earliest memories are of my three year old Sunday school glass. And you know, so I was in church my whole growing up and I went away to a Christian college and I studied Bible and college. I got a job at a Christian publishing company right out of college where I worked for a number of years and then started my own business in which I was serving Christian authors and publishers. But I would say that for most of my life, I really didn't have that sense or I should say it was limited. My sense, certainly of seeing Christ in the Old Testament was was pretty much limited to prophecies about Jesus. You know, the kind of prophecies like, you know, he'll write a donkey or he'll be born in Bethany. The Virgin will conceive or and certainly Isaiah 53, you know, the suffering servant and how we can see the cross there. But that was just a very limited understanding. And so I remember as I began listening to teaching and preaching in which wherever they were in the Bible, their main point was to show us how that was about Christ. And the way they did that was stunning to me. And I just remembered thinking myself, this is not how I have read the Bible most of my life. And actually, I feel like I need to go back to kindergarten on even understanding the Bible in this way. And so my way of doing that was to commit to write books about it. It was a way to learn. Yeah, that's, you know, I think most people think, okay, people write books because they're an expert on something and then they want to write about it. And the truth is, for a lot of my books, it has really been about here something I want to truly understand deeply. And I think any of us who ever teach anything know that the way we get a grip on something is to figure out how to communicate it to someone else. I also think that has served me well in that I think I ask the same questions that other people are asking and then seek to answer them. So that there's a benefit of not having been an expert for years about something. Yeah, you can kind of come to those basic questions that most of us are wrestling with. Right. And anticipate those and seek to answer them. So I mean, in terms of light bulb moments, and this is a little bit embarrassing. I remember my third book was a book on Hebrews and I'm here to confess to you today, Matt, that as I sought to write a book on Hebrews, I did not know what types were. Yeah, which is, Hebrews is all about that. It's filled with types. The types of Christ and the Old Testament. Yes. So in the process of writing that book, I think that was my first real taste of it to begin and to chew on the idea of types of Christ, shadows of Christ that are cast back into the history of the Old Testament that I'll show us something significant about the person in work of Christ. So from the book of Hebrews, you've got these types of from people, whether it's Moses or Joshua or Melchizedek that show us something of Christ, as well as objects like the tabernacle in the temple. And so that was getting a taste of it. But I do remember also listening to a couple of messages that came out of a 2006, I think, Desiring God Conference. One was a message from Tim Keller. And he just began hopping and skipping through the Old Testament and calling out all these true and better things, you know, that Jesus is the true and better Adam. And he's the true and better able and he's the true and better Jonah and just all the way. And I remember my mind exploding in the sense that, wait a minute, my experience with the Bible had been more seeing these and reading about these people in the Old Testament. And if we deem them to be doing good or being good, then, you know, my takeaway is try hard to be like that. Yeah. Or if we deem them to be evil or not good, they're kind of merely examples, either to imitate or to avoid. Exactly. Yeah. So as I began to hear that teaching, that was a big sign to me, okay, I need to figure out how to read the Bible that way. Another talk at that conference was from Brian Chapel. And I remember him coming to a point in his talk where he talked about the Old Testament being a series of coming to the place where you say, not that, not that, not that. So in particular, God is going to, He gives him His people prophets. Well, there are so many false prophets, you know, and you come to the end of the Bible and all of the prophecy of the Old Testament. We're still waiting, wondering, how are all these things they've said, how's it going to happen? When is it going to happen? He gives His people priests who are supposed to mediate between God and His people. And when you get to the end of the Old Testament, as much as anything else, it's the priesthood, break down the corruption of the priesthood that has led God's people to be cast into exile. And then they return, but it's the priesthood sale. That's not going to be the answer. He gives His people kings. He sets His king on the throne, David, and He promises that He's going to have many descendants and He's going to discipline them. And oh my goodness, isn't that the heart of the Old Testament? We really get into those historical books. Yes, there are some good kings. But there's always a flaw. And there are so many evil kings. At its heart, none of these kings are able to usher in and establish the kingdom as God intends for it to be. None of these kings are able to rule with justice and righteousness. And so as I heard Brian Chapel, that just clicked in for me, you know, not a specific character like Tim Keller had, but more the whole storyline and development of the Old Testament. How it all points to Christ, because there are so many significant needs that arise in the Old Testament that are not met, so many patterns that don't come to their full resolution. And all of these are things that point to Christ. Yeah, my sense is that similar to you, many people who have grown up in the church who had wonderful Christian parents were in good, solid, Bible preaching churches, they never last still didn't maybe get this kind of picture of the Bible. Why do you think that is? Oh, now that's a question. I remember doing some study on this for a paper one time in seminary. I came up with an answer and I got a decent grade, but I don't know if it's a good answer. I remember one time reading something, a story in Christianity today from way back, maybe 2006 or something. And it made the point that there was a time when trained, biblically trained people did all the teaching. But that in the, I want to say 50s, the Sunday School movement. movement came to the fore. And so then it began to be ordinary lady who were beginning to teach. And so I think maybe that lack of biblical training, perhaps, in people who are teaching, as well as our American pragmatism and our American sense of you can make yourself better. And it's up to you. I kind of wonder if those two things meant that then, as children, as we were being taught the Bible, instead of week by week, learning how a passage pointed to our need for Christ and the way Christ meant that need and the superiority, the necessity, the sufficiency of Christ along the way. Instead, it more naturally became, so here's what you need to do. And here's who you need to become. And here's what you've got to avoid. So I don't know if that's the truth, but it makes sense to me. And so if that's the way we've grown up being taught the Bible, which, I mean, I can't, I can't fault the teachers who taught me the Bible, because I have over the years summit, I'm going to fault myself, but I'm sure that it was there at times, and I didn't take hold of it. Quite sure. Yes. But I think in general, somehow I didn't pick up on that and, and make that my primary orientation and instinct for how I was going to approach a text. Yeah. I mean, I think that rings true to me as well, though. And I, I think, to many people, there's the idea that I was taught to read the Bible with a focus on life transformation for myself, right? Exactly. And we want that. And we want that. There's a certain truth, goodness to that emphasis that if we're reading the Bible and nothing ever changes in our lives, that's probably a bad sign. But there, there was almost this, this emphasis on the Bible is there to help me be a better Christian, in grow in my own spiritual life and walk. And that's the fundamental purpose of the Bible. The Bible as a guide to life, rather than the Bible as a revelation of Jesus Christ. So yeah, what practical difference does that make? If we shift, move from thinking about the Bible as a guide to life, and instead start viewing the Bible as a revelation about God and about what he has done, what kind of shift does that start to work in us as we read the Bible? How does that even change how we experience the Bible? Well, I think, I think maybe even a step before that is to become convinced that that is the appropriate way to read the Bible. And we're really helped in that when we get to say John chapter five, and Jesus says to these scribes, you search the scriptures because you think in them you're going to find eternal life. Well, the scriptures are all about me. Moses wrote of me. So okay. And then the passage that really convinced me is Luke 24, where Jesus is walking on the road to Emmaus. And they don't recognize him, but it says that beginning with Moses and the prophets, Jesus explained all things concerning himself. Wow. Okay. So Jesus reads the Old Testament as being about him, which by the way, is that not fascinating to think about Jesus growing up and they open up the scrolls? And he's increasingly seeing himself in them growing in his understanding of his own identity. All right. So Jesus read and understood the Bible this way. And then the apostles read and presented the Bible this way. I mean, the first time we really see it is they're on Pentecost. And we're kind of stunned at Peter from what we've seen of him in the gospels after this point. But what we know is all the apostles have spent 40 days learning how to read the Old Testament under Jesus's tutelage. Learned amazing experience. Oh my gosh. Wouldn't you love to sit on that class? They kind of taken away the blinding. Yeah. So they can see it. And now they are starting to see things they never see before. Yes. In Luke 24, it says he opened their minds to understand the scriptures. And so when we get to Pentecost and Peter steps up to preach, what is he doing? He is using the Old Testament. You know, he's calling on Isaiah and Joel and so many other Old Testament to and the Psalms to make his case for who Jesus is. And so that's the first thing. We're convinced that this is the right way to read the Bible because Jesus read it this way and because the apostles read preached taught it that way. Now I've forgotten your reading. So now once once we're there, once we're convinced, just sketch a picture of practically what does that do to your Bible reading? Yeah. Yeah. So I think one thing it does is it's like it puts on a new set of glasses for us. So that as we look at the text, we're asking the question, maybe we ask based on Luke 24, what might Jesus have pointed to in this book and this passage and said, this is most profoundly about me. I think that's how I started with it. And that is a good way to do it. So for example, when we turn to the Psalms, once again, my instinct, I make it all about me. Now it becomes problematic when I get to those enemies that I want God to crush because I'm not really sure what to do with that. And so what we do, what we need to do when we approach the Psalms is, first of all, realizing we are saying, singing these Psalms to Christ, when we say the Lord is my shepherd, we see Jesus Christ, the good shepherd. So we sing or say them as two Christ. We also read them about Christ. When we read about the blessed man, once again, we want to make it about us. Let's see, have I, have I meditated on the law day and night? How am I doing with that? But instead, we say, oh, Jesus is the blessed man. He is the only person who has ever truly meditated on the law day and night. In fact, I cannot delight in the law of the Lord without Christ. The blessed man who delights in the law of the Lord, the only way I can do that. I mean, the law is going to condemn me without Christ. But as we put on these glasses to see Christ, we realize, okay, here is hope, because Jesus has perfectly delighted in the law of the Lord. I have hope. But we also, so we've looked at them being two Christ and about Christ. But then it's pretty fascinating to read the Psalms and think about these words on the lips of Jesus himself. And once again, I would go back to Pentecost. Isn't isn't this what Peter does when he points to Psalm 16 and that verse where it says, you know, my body is not going to decay in the grave. Well, we really, and he points out, this cannot be, this cannot be David about himself because he's dead in the grave. But so we hear the voice of Jesus and my body is not going to decay in the grave or Psalm 22 when, you know, we so see a picture of the crucifixion in that. And when he gets to the final words there, the Psalmist says he has done it. And in them, we hear an echo of Jesus Christ saying it is finished. That's an amazing thing about, you know, these three ways that we should read the Psalms, which, you know, they kind of have their own echoes and other parts of Scripture. It can maybe sound like, oh, is that really what's going on there? Is that just Nancy imposing her thing? But actually, when we read the New Testament carefully, we see examples of the biblical writers using the Old Testament in all those different ways. Absolutely. Applied to Jesus in those different, different ways. It's a really, it's so much richer and deeper than sometimes the way that I think we can approach this. Like you said, at the very beginning, we boil it down to maybe a few prophecies that are about Christ. So I have a confession to make, Matt, when I started into this project, be holding Christ, I pretty quick. So, you know, the Bible, I've got it divided up into 365 days. Before you get into that, we'll walk us through, give us a quick vision of what this project is seeking to do and even kind of how it's set up, and then go into how it was to write it. Yeah. So in this new project, and it's really a couple of things, it is a standalone book. And in that book, I've created 365, what I'm calling daily reading introductions. It's not really a devotional. It's not simply teachings. It's not a replacement for your Bible reading. No, it's an introduction to be ready to read it because I think that a lot of us, we say, I want to read through the Bible. I mean, this is the most important book in our lives, and some of us have gone our whole lives and we've never actually read through it. Maybe we started, we got discouraged, derailed along the way. So what I've created are reading introductions. I think a lot of people want to read through the Bible, and maybe one of the reasons some people give up is they find as they go along. They're just not really understanding what they're reading. There's that sense of there's something underneath here. There's something going on here, and I can't see it. I can't figure it out. I don't, I don't, I don't get these geographic references. I don't get these cultural names that I can pronounce. These names I can't pronounce. And so it's easy to give up if you're trying to read through it every day, which takes some effort, but you're just feeling like you're not really getting what you know is there. You think to yourself, how does my pastor ever come up with anything out of this? I can't see it. I was going to say I've had an experience in the Old Testament, especially in some, you know, historical book where I've heard a sermon from a pastor, and it was really meaningful, and he drew all these amazing things, and it was helpful. And then I'm trying to read it myself, and I'm like, well, that's not happening for me. Yeah. So in these reading introductions, what I'm trying to do is anticipate those things, those things that make a particular passage, perhaps difficult to understand. And you're kind of paving the way for the reader. That's a good way to say it. I want to tell some things in advance. In some cases, maybe it feels like a summary of what they're about to read, but I think more significantly, my goal is to prepare them to read that passage, and since that they come out at, like, I get that, I can see what's happening here. I can, I can trace the argument that the right biblical writer is making here. And so the book is made up of 365 of these daily reading introductions. Now each one begins with a statement about Jesus Christ, because my first goal, I want to help people understand what they're reading, but if we're really going to understand it, rightly, we need to be able to see Christ in it. Now I have a confession to make to you, and that is, as I started in on that, on this project, I kind of wondered, can I really find a genuine, authentic connection to Jesus Christ in every passage that I'm going to work through over 365 days, or are they all going to start sounding the same? Yeah, second chronicles seven rules around. Yes. Yeah, after you've already done first and second kings, and I have to tell you, I don't think any of these statements about Jesus ended up being a stretch, or that they didn't arise from the passage. And so I think this is going to be a great resource, we were talking earlier about children's Sunday school teachers, and I think often, as I've worked on this about children's Sunday school teachers, who don't feel equipped to get to Christ when they're teaching, that they could read through this, "Oh, so there's I see Christ in this passage." And so I've got just this one simple statement about how we can behold Christ in this specific passage. So we've got the statement of Christ beginning it every time, and then some explanation, some introduction to the passage. And then I've got a few suggestions for them, few little bullet points. I'm going to say, you know, look for this repeated word. Yeah. Or watch this develop in the passage. And then this is where some of them get a little bit more personal. Also, like reckon with this command, examine yourself for obedience to this. Pray through this. And so I think the combination of this statement about Christ, some background information and explanation toward understanding. And then these little points to call people to, here's what you're looking for, and here's how you might respond to it. So my hope is that they would engage in their minds as they read the text, that they would love the Lord with their mind in this deep desire to understand it, but that it wouldn't stop there, that it would cause them to love the Lord with their hearts so many of these passages. As we grow in our ability to see Christ in them, they lead us to worship. And wonder like how good of a God that he would put this plan in motion. And how great of a savior that he could save to the uttermost in this way. And so I hope that that's the impact day by day that people understand it more. And because they understand it more, because they see Christ more clearly in it, they're moved to worship. Yeah, that's what I love about this resource too, is it is designed as a daily reading guide, something to use every day as you get up. It's going to help you get into the word and understand the word, like you said. But I actually think that there'll be many people who find this, maybe pastors and Bible teachers, Bible study leaders who can even use this as a resource. When I'm, I am going to lead a discussion group through this certain passage. This could be a great way to kind of get in there and start thinking not just about the historical background, not just about tracing the argument, but to kind of take that step back like you're saying, and how does this connect to Christ? How does this connect to our salvation? So not speak a little bit about the Bible project as well, because there's a book, kind of a traditional book that people can use alongside their own Bibles, but there's also going to be a Bible that has all this content in it. What sets that apart from the book? Yes, the beholding Christ Bible. So two key things, I think, first of all, it's set within the text of the ESV. And so rather than using the book and your own Bible, you've got it right there. All in one spot. Rightly divided up. Yeah, so all the readings are kind of separated and you get your introductions paired right with the text. Exactly. Yeah. Another thing the Bible has that the book doesn't have is what I would call pretty fresh and robust book introductions. So a lot about them is it would be the same that you would maybe find in a study Bible, where it's telling you about the author and the audience and and maybe an outline. But what you probably don't find in other Bibles is for each book of the Bible, I mind that book for some key concepts that you need to understand that once again, I think would be unfamiliar to people and to be really helpful to them as they're trying to make sense of the passage. So for example, the book of Exodus, you kind of need to understand the significance of first born sons because it's not a part of our everyday thing, right? There's a cultural thing going on there that we just are as familiar with. Exactly, but it's pretty significant. Moses goes to Pharaoh. Israel is my first born son. And then we see all those first born sons are are are going to die. And so understand this concept here in Exodus, it helps us as we continue reading the Bible. Yeah. Even when we get to the New Testament. And it's not just a random random cultural background thing that's sort of interesting, but it actually connects directly to Jesus. Exactly. Because when we get to the New Testament, we see that Jesus is God's first born son. And he has not withheld him. He he he his first he gives his first born son to cover our sin. And so there's a concept. So what would might be another? I already talked about this a touch on this in terms of Psalms, the way Psalms has so much about our enemies enemies. And so they are just explained. We have to understand that enemies in the Psalms, these are those who have set themselves against God. And his anointed one who in the Psalms is the king that he has set on the throne. So then how what do we do with that when we're reading it? And so we always want to okay, we understand what it was for them. Then we want to think through what difference does the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus make? And so then we read that Psalm and we think about Jesus and who his enemies will be. So like Psalm two, we read about the you know about these enemies that are gathered around the anointed one. And that's what we see when we get to the Gospels, right? The enemies. And surprisingly, they're the chief priests and the elders who are gathered around the anointed one should have known. So then we want to figure out so then what are the implications for me? Who are my enemies? Well, my enemies are not the people I don't like. Or the people who I think are against me. I have one primary enemy, the enemy of my soul, Satan himself. And so I'm I'm relieved when When I read the Psalms to see of God's certain defeat of his enemies, because that gives me confidence that I can depend on a certain defeat of Satan, which is, of course, is what we read about both Jesus on the cross when He takes away the power of Satan to accuse us, and then, of course, the very end of the Bible when Satan is destroyed for good. So that's just a couple of examples of maybe key concepts that are important to be able to read that book of the Bible and understand it, and that also help us get to Christ. Oh, one more thing, the other thing that's unique in these book introductions is a section for every book called "Beholding Christ." So it's summarized. In every day's reading, I'm going to be getting there, but there oftentimes are other ways in a larger sense that particular book helps us to behold Christ. So every book of the Bible will have an introduction that presents that concisely. Yeah. So Nancy, the third part of this suite of resources that we're working on together is a podcast. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that and how that fits and relates to these other two resources. Yeah. I suppose it comes out of the fact that you at Crossway and me think about how people engage with content and how people are engaging with the Bible. And we think about these little devices that we have in our hands, right? And so maybe we're going to be listening to an audio Bible on our way into work, or maybe while we're brushing our teeth before we actually sit down to read through the Scriptures, how might we be preparing ourselves to take that in? And so on January 1st, 2027, we're going to launch the Beholding Christ podcast, be a new episode every day that will track along with the readings in the book and in the Bible. It will be essentially the same content, but some people might just rather listen to it depending on how, when, where they're trying to take it in rather than read it. I think for a lot of people, they'll probably want to have both and go back and forth from it. But I'm excited that it's going to be available on audios as a podcast. But you know, the other thing we've seen recently, Matt, is how many people in this world, be honest with you, I've been kind of surprised because it's not a way that I've always connected with content. And that is via YouTube. These days, a lot of people, the way they, and I'm putting in air quotes, listen to podcasts, is via YouTube. So if this podcast is going to be available via video on YouTube as well as on your podcast app. Yeah. Yeah. So people can subscribe ending those places or all of those places if they want. And as you said, on YouTube, they'll be able to see you speaking to them, helping them, setting up these passages for them, helping them get into the word for themselves. And so it is really an amazing resource. It's going to be, you know, our, our vision, I know you share this with us at Crossway is just to help, help Christians read the Bible. That is such a foundational part of our lives as believers and to help us see Christ and the gospel. And so we don't want to simply like, check. I read that. Yeah. It's something deeper than that. And that's really what I hope holding Christ, the book, the Bible, podcast, video cast. I hope as people use this, that it is actually a resource that helps them to do, to answer the call of Deuteronomy, which is to love the Lord our God with all of our heart, soul, and strength. And so in our mind, we find later, right, the way Jesus puts that. So boy, I hope it helps people love Jesus, love Christ with their mind. And the way we do that is we invest ourselves in seeking to know and understand him. And the Bible is what God has given us to be able to do that. And so as we do that, we keep discovering new things about him, new causes to love him more. So I hope this helps people to love him more with their heart, that they would love him with their soul, that as we, if they read through these resources, that they would find their souls stirred, that they would find themselves led to wonder and to worship. And so I hope this really helps people to love him heart, soul, and mind. Yeah. And hearing you talk about your heart for the holding Christ, all these resources that you've created, it does make me think about a lot of the other books that you've spent years investing in, that you've written, even just your broader teaching ministry when you speak at conferences in the US and around the world, helping people to read the Bible. And it made me think this project feels in some ways, I'm curious if you resonate with this sort of like a capstone kind of project where it really is, it's kind of bringing together so many of these streams that you've been investing in for a long time into a single resource that really is going to help people just engage with all of the Bible, not just one particular book or area. How do you think about this project in relation to things that you've done? Well, certainly there were so many things that I've written, you know, I think especially about my seeing Jesus Neil Testament Bible study series, but even more recent books I've written on Revelation, blessed or saved on the book of Acts, even better than Eden. Even better than Eden to see the big themes in the Bible, exactly, all of those prepared me for this, but yet that wasn't even enough because I find that I don't really know parts of the Bible that I haven't taught. I mean, I kind of know. And so that meant this project for me, you know, I invested a year of my life, I didn't travel and speak much, I stayed home and I was at my desk most days by about 630 in the morning and they are till about 430 in the afternoon. And so, you know, if you looked at my office, the writing oftentimes looked more like reading. You know, I'm so, I'm so, so grateful that we don't study, learn the Bible alone. We do it in community. And so, so, so grateful for so many good resources, people. So maybe one unique way I have been equipped to do it has been to know who are good sources to go to, and particularly those people who are very adept at getting to Christ. So I was really helped by the ESD Expository Commentary Series. Love. What is it? Is it 12 volumes? That's right. Beautiful black books that just work through every part of the Bible. Those were a great resource to me. I could not have written the sections on the Psalms without Christopher Ashes for volume series on Psalms, right? So I'm just so grateful for people who are smarter than I am. That could be a resource to me because a big part of this project was learning. I mean, my goal was I want to help people understand how to read this passage. And there were some passages I just wasn't that familiar with. And so that required of me investing a lot to, okay, I want to deeply understand it. And now how am I going to help other people do it? That's one of the beautiful things about the church, the way that God has built his own community and we can benefit from the careful study and the time that others have invested. And I think that's going to be true for many of those who pick up your book, Nancy, and this is a resource that will serve them and their churches and their children and their families for years. So we thank you for doing this with us at Crossway. And thank you for speaking today on the Crossway podcast. Thank you, Matt. I hope it serves people to behold Christ. That was Nancy Guthrie, unseen Christ in the whole Bible. For more, check out our book with Crossway, beholding Christ, a daily guide to seeing Jesus in all of scripture. Pick up a print copy of the book for 30% off or get the ebook or audio book for 50% off directly from Crossway by visiting Crossway.org/plus. And if you like this interview, check out another conversation I had with Nancy in title Why You Shouldn't Be Afraid The Book of Revelation. To listen, click the link in the show notes or search for the episode wherever you get your podcasts. For more audio content like this, subscribe to the Crossway podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast player. If you enjoyed this episode, consider sharing it with a friend and leaving us a review. Crossway is a not-for-profit Christian ministry that exists solely for the purpose of proclaiming the truth of God's Word through publishing Gospel Center content. Visit us today at crossway.org.