How to Scale While Keeping Your Brand Intact (Kelly Wearstler)

[MUSIC] >> Today's guest isn't your typical founder. She's a creative force who has built a global brand around her taste and her point of view. Kelly Wurzler is one of the most influential interior designers in the world. But we're not here to talk about her taste alone. We're actually going to get into the brand and the business behind it. From working an unpaid apprenticeship in New York to waiting tables to a 60 person studio and a business that spans interiors, product, creative direction, and media. Kelly is the epitome of scaling with intention and precision. In my conversation with her today, we're going to talk about risk, reinvention, motherhood, money, failure, and how she's evolved and continues to push boundaries with the introduction of AI in a largely creative led company. Kelly built a successful business and one that's designed to last. And my loves, before we get into the episode, please don't forget to like and subscribe. [MUSIC] >> Kelly, thank you so much for being here today. >> Thank you for having me. This is like such an honor and so happy to be here with you. >> Honestly, I couldn't be more happy. I'm telling you, when I said that I was going to have you on the show, today, so many people were excited around me. They were like, oh my God, I follow her on Instagram. She's so cool. I was like, you have no idea. But to start us off, I think so many people know you. Obviously, you're an AD100 interior designer. A lot of people will know you through your various commercial projects, or maybe they've stayed at a hotel that you've designed. But I would love for you in your own words to just talk a little bit about exactly what it is that you do. And this incredible business and the scope of the business. Because there's so many different facets of what you do, that I'd love it to come from your own mouth. >> I am a designer and I basically have six verticals within my company. And it all started with design and architecture. And we design residential projects, we design hotels. I also have licensing. We do creative directions for brands. We have brand partnerships. I also have a media business worser world that I launched last year. And it's on Substack and it's so much fun. >> We love your Substack. >> Everyone in this office is following you on Substack. I can't tell you. >> It's so much fun. Like just sharing it, like I share the tips and things that I'm loving, things I want to buy. And it crosses over like beauty and fashion and design and travel and architecture and like cool places to stay. And the sky's a limit. Like I really want to like push that forward. And then also I launched a gallery last year, Side Hustle. And this is like really like about the art of collaboration and working with different artists, which is also something that I'm really so passionate about. And really looking at how they think and creating unique works with them. >> Unbelievable. And you also have a product business, right? That's in the licensing arm, I'm guessing. >> Yes, but we also produce, we design and produce our own product. So we have workshops, we have our own production team. We do our own sales and distribution. We have e-commerce and then we also have the licensing division. >> I mean, it's wild. This is a, it's a crazy business. It is crazy. It is crazy. What do you think it is that's allowed you to kind of have this business where you kind of, you know, you have this obviously unbelievable creative frame. But you have a real commerciality to what you do as well. What is it in your personality that's allowed you to have like this kind of crossover and the breadth of business that you have? >> Well, it's just being curious. And I love designing and so much comes out of our projects that we design, whether it's for residential, designing something proprietary, everyone wants something unique, or it's for a hospitality project. And, you know, really looking at everyone wants something unique. And good design is paramount. And the quality, the craftsmanship. And everyone wants something like really like this functional, something that does something for them. And it has a unique point of view. But it's also like somewhat down the middle of the road who it appeals to more people. >> Yeah, and you're a masterful at doing that. Because I, I know like the research and the stories in how like brilliantly kind of you think about things, but to somebody else, they just look at objects and they're like, I need that. We all were very, very lucky that we stayed at the Santa Monica hotel. And we were dying because everything that we looked at is something that you just want to buy and take home and have in your house. >> And it's just, you know, it's a mix, like how I design is like contemporary works. And a lot of things we design that go into our projects. But it's also like vintage and classic pieces that really like create a really interesting tension in our projects. I feel like that crosses over so much into like the way that you present yourself from a fashion point of view as well. Because I follow you on Instagram, like so many of us would do. And you've got like a bit of old, a bit of new, something that you've collected, something that's not even supposed to be clothing. It's like so incredible the way you put things together. >> Yeah, and it's like I dress how I design. Like there's always something that is vintage. It is very soulful and it like it has a story and it has like patina and interest and soul. Like that's something that's so important. But then there's something that is contemporary that like creates like this perfect, like friction. This beautiful friction. >> Can I ask you what changed for you from I guess the beginning of your career when you were like more servicing clients to this part of your business that's more about your own lines and collections. Is it something, is there like a big shift in the way that you see your business today? >> You know, starting out like I'm in a service business and it's all about creating unique projects and being a good listener, you know, really like loving that. I love, I basically create, we design someone's love story. Whether it's for a brand or it's for a client. In doing that, we, you know, are, there's only so far we can go. Like I want to stay a boutique size studio. I'm there every day, I'm there all day long. I'm providing a creative leadership to the team, which is so important. And I also want to scale my business. And so this is where like the licensing and the design was able to be a big part of our business. And this is where I can scale, hiring really talented team, collaborating with them, also working with these amazing brand partnerships. So like the best in class who we're partnering with. And so we create interesting energy, we do something new, our partners push us to do something new, we push them to work in something, maybe another material they haven't worked in before. So the business is constantly feeding each other. There's a lot of cross pollination that goes on, which is great. And design is a foundation of the business and there's so much that comes out of that. Can you tell me a little bit about your origin story, like how did you even get into interior design? I grew up in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. And I was really curious. I came from like a lineage of women that were really strong and worked, like both of my grandmother's worked, my one grandmother worked in a factory, my other grandmother worked 50 years as an illegal assistant for an attorney. And I had a very young mom, she was 18 when she had my sister and I. Right. We grew up in a city that there wasn't a lot of culture, but my mother was so curious. And she was always about like, you know, you and your sister have to take care of yourselves, you have to be your own independent person, nobody's going to take care of you other than you. I mean, that was like with these women, we're always saying in my life. And so that came at like a very young age. And then my mother, who is like incredibly curious, loved design. And so she was constantly, I was going to thrift stores, I was going to flea markets, I was going to auctions everywhere with her. And I can just remember going into these, you know, some were like these like smelly little holes in the wall and like digging for the treasure. And I was so excited to go. And I just remember opening up these magazines and like seeing fashion and seeing graphic design and opening up all these incredible books that were taking me to another place because I was in Myrtle Beach. Like there's a lot. Wow. It was like a scapegoat for you. That's why. It was a scapegoat. And I was absolutely loving it. And I, you know, just kind of dreamed of like, you know, just doing something creative. And when was the first time you sort of understood that this need to have beautiful things and being these thrift stores and find like little treasures, when did you understand that capale into a career? So I went to, I left when I was 18, I went to school in Boston, like I just wanted to get out and went to school in Boston and I was waiting tables while I was in school. And because, you know, I paid my way through college and I was going to school. I was going to work and then going to my studio space at night. And like, I just knew I wanted to, like at some point, like have my own business. Like I didn't know exactly. I was studying graphic design. I changed my major to architecture in college. Oh, wow. And then I, um, was just, you know, just working really hard. Like, you know, all the students were going to Europe for vacation and I was working and I loved it. I was doing like internships and things like that. Then I ended up, after I graduated, I moved to New York and I ended up getting a job working with a very famous like graphic designer, Milton Glager. He actually designed the I love New York logo. - No, oh wow, he's like, I found it. - That's insane. - He's amazing. - And it's insane. What training ground that Master Ben Fier. - And I also had visibility to, he was also designing restaurants and he was like really a multi-disciplinary. It was my first kind of visibility. - So what are you at least, how old are you at this point? - I was like 21. - Oh wow, so like super formative. This is your first job out of college and you're like really in the thick of it with somebody. Was he iconic at the time? - Yes, he was iconic. And he was doing like a lot of like album covers and like restaurants and things like that. But I was working for free 'cause it was a kind of show. - As we all did back in those days. (laughing) - And I said that I was also waiting tables, which is like one of the best jobs like that you could do. - I think the combination of waiting tables and working for free could like be for almost like, I don't know, like nine out of 10 of the really successful people I know. - And you know what, it's like things go 360 because like I know how to design a restaurant because I know in depth how they operate. Like I just know so well because I worked at them for so long. - Well also it's that combination of like understanding how to service people, right? Like what matters to somebody as they come into a place and what the graphic design layout of a menu is and how people feel comfortable in a space how long do they stay in it? It's all very formative. Like I always say to that I am a good host because I worked in a delicatessen and I really understood like if you did a good coffee you could get someone to stay and have like a piece of cake and then they'd buy something off the shelf but the whole thing was like, you know, like you're learning, you're picking up all of these signals if you're smart enough to do that. So when you come, so you're in New York you're working this unpaid apprenticeship, I guess. How long do you stay in that job? - I stayed in that job for, I think it was like 10 months. - Okay. - And then I knew like in living in New York and you have no money, it's so tough, as you know. And also like I grew up on the beach and I wanted to be in nature but I also wanted to be in an urban setting where there was like culture and I could learn and a friend of mine from Boston said, you have to come to LA and check it out. So I came to LA and he actually had like a place in Malibu where I stayed. He was like, there was an apartment. There's actually apartments in Malibu and by the pier. - That's insane. I stayed with him for like three days and I was like hooked. I was like, oh my God, I have to be here. And then I went back and like packed my shut up and then I moved to LA. - That's unbelievable. That's unbelievable. So take me back to the moment where you decided to strike out on your own because again, this business that you've created, like I always talk about you as having like this one-of-one career. You've got all of these verticals. They're also kind of like inextricably like you. Like they feel like it's like such a, you're the person that created these things. You've created this business in your own likeness. But I guess it didn't start that way. So I'd love for you to take me back to the beginning and tell me what it was like as you decided to go out on your own. - Well, it kind of happened unexpectedly because I so I came to LA and I was like, okay, I gotta find a place to live. And I had no money because I also had credit card debt because I was like working for free and it was just the whole thing moving out. And so I got a job working at a restaurant in West Hollywood. It was like a lot of people from the film business came to this restaurant. And I became friendly with this couple and we would talk design and go to museums and I would tell them I was going to flea market and they were like, hey, why don't, like do you wanna help us with our house? We just got a house in Venice and the canals and we'll give you like the living room and like you work on that and like there was no budget. So I'm like, yes, like I'm gonna do this and I was doing everything. Like I was painting. I was going to the paint store in the morning, finding the painter painting, going to the flea market with a flashlight in the morning, like five in the morning we find all the like good stuff. And like having a cart, putting things in my car. Like I was doing everything 'cause I wanted this project so bad to just be amazing. Did you think about it as like a formative project or were you just doing your makes a favor? Like was there a point in your mind where you're like, oh, this is gonna be like some kind of showroom for me or like, you know. - No, I was just doing what I felt in my heart. Like I wanted to make the clients happy. It was kind of like the perfect storm. So I did the one room and then I ended up doing the entire house and then, you know, they had friends over and I ended up getting other projects. And so I was like, like, shit, I have my own business. And but I was still working out of my apartment. I was doing, I was still waiting tables. Like I was, 'cause you're nervous. It's like, what is the next job I'm gonna get? Like I didn't know. And so then I started getting a couple calls and then I was like, this is amazing. And I ended up hiring an assistant who actually worked at a vintage store that was like so great and he was helping me in my apartment. So this really was born out of a passion and you just like throwing yourself in and then word him out. - Yes. - That was it. - There was no Instagram. There was no advertising. - So there's no way publicizing your work. It was like, if you were invited to that couple's house and was like, oh, this is like a lovely living room or a lovely home, they would say, oh, Kelly did this. Was it a scary decision? Because again, I speak to so many young founders and I think that people that are sitting here listening to this at home that are dreaming of like jumping into something that they really love. But it's not quite like the thing that they dream about. It's not quite matching their day job, if you like. Was there trepidation from you like giving up waiting tables or like where would it be? - Yes, I would have nightmares. I'm like, oh my God, I still have dreams. I'm not joking that I had to go back to waiting tables. Like is that crazy? I still have dreams like that. - I'm sure you'd be really good. You're a great host. There you go. You've always got that to fall back on. - Yeah, I do. - You've always got that to fall back on. All right, so you saw and I want to fast forward a bit because I feel like I want to dig into the business that you run today, but how did you go from you and this assistant that came from the vintage shop to having like a 60 people studio now? - So when I finished my apartment and it looked amazing, I'm like, I'm going to get a photographer and we're going to shoot it. And then I'm going to submit it to a magazine 'cause that was like how the people operated there to have their work in a magazine. And so I did and I got a call. I remember from El Decor. I was like, oh my God, I was so excited. And they published it and it was the up and coming new designers. And then I also started working with this developer who's now my husband on like he was buying all of these like historic apartment buildings in LA, like really cool ones. And I met him through a friend and he was like, hey, can you help me with like designing the lobbies and the corridors and like some of the common areas. - And did you immediately go like, yeah, I can design a corridor or like the area? - Yeah, I always would say yes. - Obviously, there's nothing in you that feels fear, imposter syndrome, like anything that would stop you from just going for it. - No, 'cause I take risks. Like that's like what I'm about. And how, that's how I grow. I continue to do things that are tough and I'm scared, but you just do them. - Where does that come from, Kelly? Where does the ability to just take a risk? - Because I want to become better. I always want to be better. I always want to want to want out myself, right? I always want to just get better and I'm curious and I'm determined, I'm ambitious. I love what I do. Like absolutely live and breathe what I do. - It's just amazing. I mean, it's amazing to me 'cause you would have been such a young woman at that time. And I'm guessing that the competition, you're like here in LA, there would have been so many options and fabulous people that were doing like big celebrity projects and you're just like out here. - And it was scary. I ask a lot of questions. Like I can remember my first big project was in Brentwood. It was actually a new construction. And they, you know, the contractor, there was like budgets, there was timelines and it was like very structured. And like there was a lot of things I didn't know. And so I asked, I remember the contractor was like amazing and I just, I wasn't afraid to ask questions and not let people know. I didn't exactly know the answer or how to operate. And I just watched a lot. I spent so much time at all of these, all of our sites. And I really watched like plumbers and the electricians and you know, everyone pouring the foundation and really understanding like construction and design because I didn't come. I wasn't working at a studio. I wasn't working at our contextual office before. So a lot of it, you know, you like learning. - You had to learn on the job, yeah, on the job. - Do you think that that still happens to you now? Because obviously you have a lot of different parts of your business. Do you still start a new thing or go into a new category and feel like you can ask a lot of questions or do you feel like you need to have all the answers at this point? - No, I still ask questions. I mean, because we still get presented with challenging projects. And we work on like really large projects and some of them are historic renovations. and there's this a lot of questions. You're always presented with something new. - Yeah. - When I was working on the residential projects and then I had this opportunity to work on a hotel was my first hotel project. And I got an office on La Brea, a very small office. I had like two people and the developer who's now my husband, he now had investors to buy a hotel. So there was a hotel, the Avalon Hotel, and Beverly Hills, and we had a platonic relationship, but that point, he liked me. - I knew he liked you. - Yeah, for sure. He would tell my friends. (laughing) It was sweet. - It was like, oh, okay, that's sweet. (laughing) - I was like, I have to do this hotel. Like I really want to do it. It's like this cool 1950s, like boomerang-shaped building, like Marilyn Monroe lived there. It had all this history. - Unreal. - And so he's like, I don't know, I have investors, and I was like, well, let's just see what you can do. I really want to do it. So he went back and they said, well, if Kelly does the model room, every hotel you do, you have to do a model room and outfit it. Like, we actually, you sleep there, you want to make sure everything is perfect before you do a model. - Do 200 rooms or something. - Yeah. So I did the model room. I actually moved from my office on LeBraya with my team of only like three people. We actually took a room at the Avalon, and we just lived and breathed it. 'Cause it was a new beast. It's a completely different animal. Like, just where all the vendors were, things are made fabricated. Like, it's just a very more complex business designing a hotel. And so, I did the model room and that was the deal. You have to do the model room if we love it. And then you find an architect who's actually done a hotel before. And I did that, found amazing architect. They helped and it was a huge success. So this is like my big moment where I, you know, it was a very sexy project. And I got a lot of like global press. And I got another hotel after that. Maze Onwood 40, this hotel in Beverly Hills. And like, things were getting like. - That's not the beginning of the beginning. - The beginning of the beginning. (upbeat music) - Is there like something a lesson or something that you learned from those early days, just as your kind of reputation was being formed, that informs how you run your studio today, I wonder. - I mean, I do, it's the same. Like, I'm present, I'm there. There's like structure, I, you know, organized and I still like curiosity leaves me. And, you know, I'm so open to like many possibilities. And, you know, when after we finished those hotels, I got a call from a big publisher in New York. And she was like, I've seen your projects. I've been watching you and I want to do a book. And so I did, I did a book. I never thought in a million years. And it's so funny like I look at it. It's called Modern Glamour. And it looks like Instagram. Like, no way, shopping. - No way. - Quotes on like pages. And it was like, it was a, it was a best-selling book. It was like really exciting. - That's crazy. So how are you thinking at that point, right? You've done a beautiful and very like revered hotel projects. You've got your next big project that's coming down the pipe. You're asked to do a book. How are you thinking about structuring your business at that point? Because I feel like you're kind of like obviously in this moment where, you know, like the spotlights on you, there's a lot of different ways that that can go. And obviously you've taken it so far as to like build this business. But like I also think like when you have a business that's rooted in design, fashion, like they go in style and they go out of style. And yet you've got this incredible thing that feels that it's like got a lot of longevity. So did you have a thought about I'm building this type of business that's gonna get me to here? Like I just, I'm curious about the thinking and how the whole thing kind of gets shaped up and comes together. - Like I had no playbook. Like honestly nothing. And I wasn't like I honestly never dreamed. I'd be working on the stuff that I'm working on now. - Really? - No, never. And it's like I just like I always say, like you're just like surfing the wave and you're just like getting on the opportunity that feels good. Like that's so important. Like things that feel authentic and things that really feel like meaningful to me. And that they'll be an end result. I mean, granted, when I started, it was like I was taking any job. - Yeah. - You know, I just make sure that the projects were taking our partners, but there really wasn't. I just was like slow and steady and it's still that way. I mean, this is like I've had an amazing career and it's just like it's a hard work. It's like being there. I'm literally at my studio every day. - You are. And I'm in like I don't have a separate office. It's an open-air studio. And we have like these big work tables in the middle of the studio. And it's constant cross-pollination. I'm like talking to, you know, the furniture department. I'm talking to the marketing department, the sales, the finance, the architects. It's just constant like a chess game. Like really? - I'm curious about what type of leader you are because it does feel like you're very like hands on. And I wonder what like decision-making looks like for you. Like how have you figured out like what type of leader you want to be within your studio? - It's still like a work in progress. Like I show and I send an example through passion, through hard work, dedication, also like working well with my team, like collaborating and being open to new ideas. And like all of that is, you know, just like a big part of what I do. And I'm always like I'm constantly learning how to lead better. Like I don't like confrontation. Like I had a long time of like this person is not performing. Like I have to talk to them. Like I had butterflies in my stomach. Like I hate it. - What do you do? - Like I just never liked it. Like I just don't like telling somebody they're not performing. - So what do you do in that case? - Like I mean sometimes you just like you just let it go. And it turns, like it just turns our. Like you can't, you have to, like this book, this radical candor, which has been like an amazing book. I've gotten better for sure, but I still have to continue like to work on that. - No, and first of all, I love that you say that because I think it's a very female trait actually but in specifically in leadership. But it's one that I think so many people have, right? I don't want to be seen as someone that is like mean or bitchy or not saying like, you know, like you know, just not being kind, not being empathetic. I mean, I don't have a problem with that. (laughing) I always feel like I'm totally fine telling you what you don't want to hear. But it isn't something that comes naturally to a lot of people. But obviously to be as successful as you are, you've had to figure that out. Like you've got no choice. I've worked with you to have an office full of people that aren't doing what you need them to do. - Yeah, and now you're like just over the years, like you learn like certain things to look for when hiring people and like the questions asked. And I hold myself to like such a high standard that I want like the team that I surround myself every day to be as hardworking as passionate as excited. Like we're working on fun stuff, like amazing projects. - Projects. - Projects projects. Like we every we should just be like, you know, like I feel so blessed that I have these like great projects I'm working on and I put in the time. I put in the effort and the creativity. And you know, you want to surround yourself with those people. - Totally. What are the qualities that you look for in team members or team leaders that come and work with you? - Somebody that like really is passionate. Like that's the first thing I look for. And somebody obviously that has great taste level and they're good at their skill set. So if they're a furniture designer or they're an architect, you know, or like, you know, our salesperson. Like have they are like the top, you know, really like passionate about what they do. And I want somebody that wants to be there. Like I don't it's like, you know, people like, I want to work remote. I want to like, no, like we're here. I'm here every day and I want everyone to work together. I want everyone to sit around a table because that is where amazing ideas happen. That is where like the shared passion and the unexpected unique qualities of a project appear. - Can it work remotely in your business? - So I always was about, if you want a job at the studio, you have to be there. It's very difficult to find great talent. Top performers, talented people, people that want to work hard. There's many different skill sets there. And so I started looking at, we just hired somebody, an architect from Paris. He's going back and forth, where ours also are bringing in some other outside team, but they actually are all very like, like senior. - Senior, yeah, I think there's a difference actually. And I think there's such a benefit of early in your career having that proximity because, A, you need visibility with your boss, right? It's like you need to be in the room and you need to be seen so that you can be promoted. But there is just no, I don't know, there's just no replacing proximity, like especially in the creative businesses, where like I need to be around you, I need to hear what's like informing your decisions. And I just need to like watch how you move. Like there's just nothing, especially in the early part of your career, there's nothing that can replace that kind of proximity. - No, and as like, as a, you know, the kind of the creative leadership, like I want to have everyone there. So we're all learning from each other. I love continuing to learn from. you know, the junior designer in my studio to a director and, you know, everyone has something to offer. So, so now I'm like, we're bringing in people from like other parts of the world working remotely, but they still will come and they'll like stay a month with us. They'll go back. So it's like kind of back and forth back and forth a little bit. I'm curious to talk to you about money and how your relationship with money might have changed like from when you started to now. You know, I always like invested in myself. I had no money. I had to work hard for everything I had. And I love that. It's given me so much opportunity. I love to spend. I'm not a saver. And I leverage like my credit cards to build like my business and get me where I am now. And I don't want to get in debt again. That was not fun. And I had got a financial advisor that helped me just, I mean, I who knows you could have 10 credit cards, my God. Totally. And it sounds like you know, did you get yourself into a tricky situation? Yeah, but it was so liberating when I was able to like pay that off. It's very usual because I think that like the options for capital are really, you know, reduced when you're a woman, especially when you're a woman in a creative business. It isn't so easy to go out and raise or to get people to understand what you would have done. So you probably just had to do what you could do to get the money to, you know, do a very expensive business. Now, yeah, now I would say like I, I reinvest it. I reinvested in team, like hiring like the best team. And like over the years, like you can't hire like these like director level people. And so it, you know, takes a long time to build a business when you have team that is it maybe is like skilled as you'd want them to be. But now I like I invest in my team. I invest in hierarchy. Like having like the right hierarchy and every department is so important because I don't have to be in the weeds. I don't there, you know, we obviously have bottleneck. It happens in a studio, but having directors now really helps. I always tell everyone I'm always available. You can text me anytime. Call me on the weekend. Like I'm available always. Come grab me. I'm at the studio all day. So, you know, you can interrupt me. I'm totally fine with that. And so really investing in the team and in technology investing in that. I was a little bit about this. You've spoken a lot about I want to make sure we cover. I'm going to get back to money. Don't worry because you know, I like that. But I did read a lot about what you're doing in AI because you're really like, I think I must have read about it on sub stack or something like that. But you've really embraced AI in your studio. Yes. And, and you know, we were early adopters like I was so interested in it. It was like like during the NFT when all that was. Oh, really? That's a chat. Yeah, like four years ago, like super early. And I remember learning and reading about AI and just starting to listen to every podcast, like educating myself. And I still do. I listen to podcasts on it all the time. Is that what you mean when you say you invested in yourself? Like you're investing your own learning. Yes. And then I'm on we're investing in team to help us implement AI and strategies in the studio. So when I first used AI, it was probably like three and a half years ago in studio. And I started it in a very like kind of like small department. And really started working with the team who was really interested in it. And now we use it. It's like company wide. Every department is creating the most incredible efficiencies. And it enables us to be more creative because we have more time. And it is a new creative spirit on our team always. Did you have any pushback from your staff who felt like, wait a minute, I came here to do a different type of job. This is replacing me. I won't be needed at this place anymore. What does that look like? No, I think people are open, especially in the creative, in the creative realm. We use so many different tools. And it is so like it's like so exciting. Like I would say like a tech enthusiast. And now there's like open claw. Do you know open claw? I know a little bit about it. Yeah. Which is how you guys use it. Well, we're just starting. We're actually investing in a team member that's going to help us. But open claw is like this new platform. Or is this new tool that basically will will be an agent. It will operate for you. It will work all night. It's like having an assistant. There's some security like ramifications right now. It's so new. It's only like two weeks new. So what would you use it for like to create a new project? So like how does it work? Like we're looking at it to like we with the use cases that we're doing now is okay, we're looking for art for project. And we want to because this is a big, big time consuming effort is like curation. Absolutely. Curating like we curate globally for our projects. When it takes a lot of time. I'm good to use it to something like. Yes, yes, so we're so with the use cases that I have right now are abstract art. And you know, we want like you know pastel colors. And we want it about like 48 inches by 48 inches. And then like fill a folder. Scower the globe. But this is this is also the price. And these are maybe the galleries. And then it will work like 24 hours a day. That's insane because you could pay somebody to do that for weeks or a month to find you the right pieces. That's how long it takes. So so we have some other use cases that we're doing right now. And so this is like such a game changer like I'm and I'm so excited. I'm so fired up for this. Is there any part of it that worries you or scares you for the future of your business because I understand you know, certainly for us we you know have really embraced AI but I think by the same token there's an awareness that so many more people in the business become redundant. And yet we keep them in the business because there's nowhere else but like where else are people going to go. But is there any kind of worry for you that some of the kind of human and the tactile element of things that you do gets lost or no because everyone at the end of the day everyone wants something that's comfortable. And how's technology somebody everyone with something that is emotional and has the hand the craft how how chairs is fabricated how it's assembled and it's like so much of it is in the execution like you can have a great idea on paper and come up with the most amazing design and and you know with with AI but it's all in the execution like what is the assembly what is the material what is the hand and that's never going to replace. Yeah AI will you know pack boxes and things like that but is it really going to create like this like emotional response this like experience that leaves like you know a lasting memory like what a human can do. And do you think no no no can't replace you although I haven't had the massage by the robots will see. My trainer had a massage ride right about the other day he said no I'm going back to I'm going back to Cecil. I'll lady. I was like I could have told you that bro that's crazy. I just couldn't deal with the malfunction thing. I'll test anything in the business but I'm not not on my body. No thank you although I wish I kind of liked the idea of that manicure thing if you've seen the little robots manicure it's already AI bits of robot manicure I was like well that would save us a lot. So I thought that would be really handy. All right let me take you just back to this money question because again you're in such a creative business is it ever a time when you think I have to take this project because the money would just be too goddamn good not to. No because I like I feel like financially secure and now I want to work on projects that I'm so passionate about and that I'm going to learn from. We have the opportunity to work on this like really small tiny little hole in the wall restaurant by very passionate chef and there's no budget but it's like I'm going to do it like working in Mexico City working with a creative partner that's so passionate like things like that I love and then I'm going to learn from. I'm working in like you know an interesting culture and so it's so exciting and but there's no part of you that asked to balance that and say oh my god like I really need this massive hotel thing to come forward so I can do that little thing in Mexico City. Yeah I mean there is a balance like part of our licensing business helps to afford us to make smart decisions like where you know our licensing business is like about 200 million a year and in retail and we do very well in our interiors and architecture and we do creative direction and brand partnerships for you know many different brands Airbnb Chase Landcom like all these which are also like really fun so there's many different arms of the business that are exciting and I love all the opportunities. How much do you care about the money piece of it? Was there ever a part of you that's like I want to build like a billion dollar something like does that ever come into play in the way that you think? Yes I still like I'm actually working on fragrance you like that yeah it's like a billion dollar baby I want to smell like you when I look at you I'm like I want to smell like definitely that's good that's that's that's it that's the one yeah I'm so excited so we're working on that that's a whole different and like I dreamed of doing this for so long but you have to do things in sequence like sequence is such an important word like you know I could have done it you know 10 years ago 20 years ago, I, you know, have now so much more. knowledge on so many different aspects of launching like a new business. I did fashion, oh my god, I did fashion at one point. It was a disaster. It was like so stressful in my life. It was a very like kind of wrong road to go down, but you learn and I just feel like it's like the right time. I so appreciate you saying that because I really believe in this idea of chapters and having like you don't always get your opportunities at the time that they'll necessarily work, but sometimes you just got to shoot your shot and like do them anyway. But there is this kind of preconceived idea, especially for women in business that if you mess something up, that it kind of messes everything up. You get your one chance and if you don't get it all perfectly right, then it all kind of goes up in a poof of smoke. When the reality is we know for so many men, they make huge mistakes and lose lots of money and have a lot of failure and they just kind of like dust themselves off and go to the next thing. So I appreciate you saying that you've made mistakes and there were things in your business that didn't work out. What did you learn from that situation like with the failure of fashion? Just that like you know when it's time to like wrap it up and I so remember like a friend of ours who had a fashion business and very successful sold it. I can remember being with my husband Brad, we were Earth Cafe, I so remember and he came in and he was like you guys just have to stop and I just knew I was like and I've been thinking about it and so we just did it and it was not fun because we had to let people go who I really loved and and they worked hard. We all worked really hard and so it was just tough but it was humbling. It was like one thing that you have to be able to go back to what my mom said like you have to be able to rely on yourself in any circumstance and now like I can be presented with anything that fits under my umbrella. I'm confident. Yes. That anytime anyone can leave like I can figure it out. Bill has been the go-to for renters earning points on their housing payments for years. What's newer is that they've opened it up to homeowners too. 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Feel fresh instantly. Shop for Sephora or get 10% off your first purchase at k18hair.com with code aspire. That's code aspire at k18hair.com. I wonder if you have any advice for like young creatives about how they can both protect their ideas but also like take feedback in because it's such an important thing when you're coming up that you hear feedback and that you use it in a useful wipe. It can sometimes be really hard to hear it. How have you dealt with that? I think you just have to be open and be good listener and just run everything through your filter. During the time when I was starting out and it was like this is trending, this is what you should be doing. I can do that and follow the herd but how are you going to stand out? You're not. You have to follow what is in your heart and what you believe in. As a young designer, I think it's important to obviously know what's going on. I know it's going on in pop culture. I know it's going on. What's trending. You just have to take that but also you have to have your own voice. That's so important or you're just going to be part of the crowd. Your mother obviously, which I love because you've got these wonderful kids and I wanted to ask you about having children and what part of I always think that they, my kids somehow did something to me as it relates to my ambition and I wonder if you had any like, did your ambition sharpen? Did it soften? What happened to you as a business woman when you had kids? Growing up, I wanted to be something, love what I do, be my own boss. That's what I wanted to do. I never felt like kids were in the equation. You didn't grow up like really wanting to. No, no. I knew like that I wanted to just, I was just ambitious and I just did things that you could do both. I met my husband and it was really important to him and I was curious about it. I'm just a curious person and I was like, well, do I see myself with kids like maybe and it was, I loved my husband and it was like important to him. I'm so I'm like, okay, we'll have one and I got pregnant unexpectedly because I probably would have been pushing it continuing to push it. We were engaged and I had Oliver my first son and like everything changed. It was like the most magical, beautiful, like how you can love something so much and I'm so vulnerable with men and it's like the best thing. I have Oliver and Elliott who are 21 and 22 and I have Crosby's three. Love the gap. The gap is amazing. It's the same restaurant. Love it, love that. And you want me to say I'm imagining nothing. It is the best thing in the world and so having my family and my husband, I take them on my journey with me. I take them everywhere. I go to museums. Trust me, they were like, I don't want to go. And I'm like, no, like and it brought me back to my mom. I was educating my eye even though you don't know what's going on. You're still educating your eye. No, you're taking it in. You're taking it in. We travel together as a family. I include them and like everything I do, having my family involved and it helps that my husband and I, we have separate businesses, but like we help each other. So there's like a great kind of family interest in like everything we do. So there's two entrepreneurs in your house. Yes, that's amazing. Yeah. So as you'll be ceases accelerate and you work with your husband too. I've listened to your podcast. Yeah, very similar story. I know, like I was really like, like, he's great. Like you guys like great energy and it's fun, but it's definitely challenging. It's fun and it's challenging. And we had a similar situation that having kids was very, very important to me and to him, I should say. And I was like, oh, okay, like you know, I've just kicked the can down the road. And then I had a kid and I was like, oh my god, the best things have happened to me. But it's interesting. I wanted to ask you as your career was accelerating, like what parts of motherhood were like the most challenging for you? Was probably during that time, I would say when my business is really growing is I would work on the weekends a little and they would come to the studio. They would paint and do different things. But you know, just the the amount of work that it takes to be your, you know, to be a founder and have your own business and really wanting to push. And obviously I missed like certain things. But one thing I did is like, I was so focused on work and family and it was very focused. Like I'm at home. I didn't go out at night. I didn't go to parties. I was home with my kids. And that's one thing that I made the conscious decision. And like people are like, you never go out like you're never at these like things for work. And it's like, well, I have a family. And like that's like the most important element of my life. Family comes first always. But that was your trade off. It was like it was work and the family. And then they're end up being very little for social and friends and, you know, other stuff. Yeah, something has to do. So you have to give. You can definitely do both. I think I'm an amazing mom. I have an incredible relationship with my kids and I'm there for them, you know, you can have both. You just have to know how to manage your time. - Yeah, do you think the motherhood has changed anything in the way that you lead or the way that you think about building your business? - As a mother, I would say just, especially with the junior team, like just more like compassionate and more communicative, and very, you know, I try and be very warm. Like, I feel like I'm a warm person, and, you know, really want to include our junior team at my studio and just knowing like they're just starting out. You know, my older boys, they're just starting, you know, new businesses. You want to push them, I push them. I hold them to a high standard. Like, I hold myself, my husband and I both do. We hold, you know, our entire family to a high standard and it's how I operate at my studio as well. - Totally. I mean, I'm guessing that your kids are going up with a very different life than you did in going on. - Yes. A little bit different. - So different. Like, so different. But they see, and that was something that we really had to, you know, just make sure like they had jobs. They, you know, you say no, like we were strict parents and they see how hard Brad and I work for what we have. And that obviously always like sets a good example. And I think including them, really giving invisibility to what we're doing and they see that we're happy. They see that we're happy in our career and like that's what I want for them to do what they absolutely love. It's so important because you're to succeed. You have to work 24/7 and have that grit and determination and passion. I love that you say that because I've read somewhere that you've kind of like refrained this idea of balance as integration rather than separation. And when I read that, I was like, does she mean with the family? I wonder if like, how does that show up, like in the way that you structure your days and you have your family and your business? What did you mean by that? - Well, just in terms of like, I get up super early in the morning. So I could have like 4.35, because I like to have like time. It's the only time I have to myself. And I have to answer the emails that I didn't get to during the day. And then I work out and I always have woken up my kids every morning and spend time with them in the morning and drive them to school. And they would come to my office. I mean, they still cause my office in the middle of the day on his way home from preschool. And you know, he sees what's like going on and happening. And then I'm at home. I go home and I, you know, in the car I'm still on calls and like doing everything I have to do and I get home and have dinner and I'm focused and hang out, you know, with my family, my husband and the kids. And then when, you know, they go to sleep with them to bed and I go back to work for a little bit. (upbeat music) - I want to hear the rest of the routine. If you're up for 30 in the morning and you're waking, waking this little kid up and you're back home for dinner. Like, what are the non-negotiables? Like give me an idea of the things that you have to do to keep yourself sane and productive and like just in the life that you want to live. - Like you want to hear all the details? - I want to know the real thing. - What you got? Like, yeah, give it to me. - I mean, so I get up, I look at my aura ring. I get it very early. Look at my aura ring. I go, I do my red light cap. And-- - How good is the red light? - Yeah, that's so good. - I know, I was just told today I have a lot and a more new growth. - Yeah, every time I go to the hairdressers, I'm like, "Do I have a new boyfriend?" They just tell me now just to shut me off. (laughing) - And then I go downstairs and I make my trouble machiato and I go through like emails like that. I want to make sure I get back to everyone. And then I go to the gym. Like, that is a non-negotiable. I work out every single day, twice a day. - Yesterday it is three. - Yes, sorry. - No, you don't. Psycho, you work out every single day. - Yeah, every single day. - Twice a week. Twice a day. - So I'll do, like, I have a wait, you know, trainer who we'd lift like really heavy weights. - Hold, hold, hold, hold, hold, hold. - You, you work out every single day, twice a day, and sometimes three times. - Yeah, yesterday was unusual. Like, on the weekend, sometimes, 'cause I play paddle. And my schedule, like, a meeting. In the morning, I work out super early, and then I do my sauna. Like, it's like 5.30. - Oh my gosh, she's like the longevity queen. - Yeah. (laughing) - Wait a minute, she's up. She's emailing triple machiato, the red light cap zone. She's getting her workout kit. You're doing a workout. - And the workout's at home. - The workout's at home, yeah. - You got your time to get into a gym. - Because I for 20 years went to berries through camp. Like, every single day. - We were just doing that. - But now it's like amazing to be a home. - Okay. - And I do my workout, and then I go directly to the sauna, do my sauna, do my, I do 20 minutes. - Okay. - Yeah, 20 minutes. And then I do shower. - Is it a wood sauna or is it an infrared sauna? I need to know. - Yeah, it's just hot sauna. - Okay. - The colds, okay. - And then, and then I take a, I would like really cold shower, which is like so amazing. You just feel, we have the cold plunge, but I don't know, I hear it's not great for-- - I know, I'm little on the fence. Like, I can do it like around my cycle, but like, there's certain times when that shit, I'm just getting it. - Yeah, it's a lot. - It's a lot, but I do the cold shower. I feel great. Then I go get it crossby. And then I read books to him. We hang out, like, have a quick breakfast, and then he gets ready. Like, we have amazing nanny who helps. I get ready for work. Like, super fast shower, like-- - You're putting that whole look together. - Have my green juice, like, my green juice, and then go downstairs. - Wait a minute, you have to go back to me because you've always got a look on it. It's a lot of you put jeans and a t-shirt on. You're just like, throwing something together or you've got your outfits that way to your head. - No, no, no. - Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't. - I like it. I always think they're-- - Even if they don't work, they kind of work because you're you, and it's like, oh, it's a weird life fair issue. It's just that kind of happens. Okay, fine. Outfits on taking the kids to school. - And then go to school, and then as soon as I drop Crosy off, and then I, like, I'm on a call. Like, just, like, on the call, work, Zoom call. Like, I mean, I'm not watching, but I'm listening. Zoom call, and then go to the studio, and then I'm, like, goes directly to a meeting. And it's, like, one after the next. Like, go to a meeting meeting, being, you know, you know. - Yeah, you'll be back to back to back. - Yeah, and then it's, like, 10 to one, and then I leave. I'm going now to my second workout. I do my second workout, and, like, it's a reset. - What's the difference between the first workout and the second workout? - They're very, very different. - They're training one, and then cardio, and then cardio, summer zone two, summer zone five, and Pilates. - With a trainer without a trainer. - No, with a trainer. Some days I do myself, I do cardio by myself, but I do heavy weight training. - On a reforma, on that Pilates. - No, on a reformer. - And then I'll go there, and I started doing jump rope. Like, I really want to get good at jump roping. So I started jump roping, and, like, doing, like, tricks, and it's really good for your body. And then I do, like, farmers walks there, and then we do regular Pilates. So I do all that. And then she's, my Pilates instructor super close to the studio. So then I go back to the studio and, like, eat. - I'm the best. - Yeah, in a meeting. - What are you eating? - And then, like, usually it's salmon and a green salad. - Okay, she's disciplined this one. - Yes. - Okay, got it. - Eat, like, I'm so laser focused on eating healthy, and, like, knowing what I put in my body. - I think it's smooth. - I've never got it at the smoothie. - Oh, you have a smoothie, a protein smoothie? - Yeah, protein smoothie, on the way to taking crowds into school. I have, like, the smoothie and the maggiato. - Yeah, because you need this energy. - Yeah. - Otherwise, it's, like, you would just fall apart. - Yes. - Wow. - And I'm not, like, snacks and things. Like, I'll have to, then I drink a lot of water. - Is there, like, some, when you're doing the meetings, do you have rules in work, like, some kind of meeting hygiene or a time, like, how does it work in the studio? Or are you just more, like, free and easy? - No, just free and easy. - Free and easy. - Yeah, okay. - So free and easy. - Free and easy. And then, like, home dinner, you must, like, what time do you go to bed? - And then, I go to bed. Actually, I go to bed at, like, 9.30. I go to bed. - And I wish. - Yes. - Okay. - And especially, like, after just everything that I've done, like, and then, like, every, we read across me, and I'm just, like, also, like, getting tired. - Okay. Now, I've got your whole routine down. I was a very important part of this interview, and I'm extremely happy about it. We're going to shift here gear a little bit. So, I want to understand, like, what matters to you most? Like, when you start to think about your legacy and almost, like, the body of work that you've created, what becomes most important to you to be able to, like, kind of look back on? - For my legacy, I would say that I, like, created great and beautiful environments that people have had memories in, and that made them feel good, and made them feel happy, 'cause that's what I want to do, is I want people to feel good and nurtured in their spaces and represent them. Also, like, we, you know, design hotels, and, you know, people coming out to me, like, "Oh, my God, like, I was at your hotel," and I got married, I inter-gauge, I had a party, and I just had, like, such an incredible weekend, and it was such an amazing memory for me, and that is so meaningful. like I love hearing that. And then we design a lot of product and designing product that people can pass down to, you know, their kids and just continue to use and having these pieces in the world are like really, you know, just mean a lot. Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. What are you most intentional about preserving in both kind of the brand and the business as you continue to evolve? To just continue to get better and to continue to learn and to produce like really great designs and grow like I want to evolve. I really want to, I see myself doing this until I'm a hundred. Hopefully all this shit's going to pay off my routine. And, you know, I just, listen, if you ain't paying off for you, it's not going to pay off for any of us. I hope it works out. And you see, I was just with Martha Stewart and it's like, she's telling me about her day. And I'm like, shit, like she is such an inspiration. First of all, beyond, I couldn't agree more. She's beautiful. I mean, like she really does. Like she's such an inspiration. And when you, you know, love what you do, like you want to just can do it till the end. Totally. I really understand that what projects are you like most excited about now? Yeah. Designing the torch and cauldron for the LA 28 Olympics. Like, first of all, we need you to do that. There's never been a female. What? Yes. Oh, is there like a vote in place or something? I don't know. We need that to happen. I tell them. I tell my friends over at TV and say, I don't know, like some sporty thing that I did. But I so want to do it. I know. First of all, we need you to do it. There's never been a woman. No. And it's like, I'm like synonymous with, you know, design and Los Angeles and. Yeah. And I'm so well suited for it. So if not you, then who? I need you to do that. I think that that would be so much. I would be so excited. Yeah. That's, that's a pretty kind of like, you know, be. I know. That's all. Yeah. I just have a few more questions left for you. These ones are rapid fire. Oh, Lord. Don't worry. I'm a rapid rapid fire. I'll just like go on for 15 minutes. So the team know when I say rapid fire, it means nothing. Okay. What is one interior decorating role that applies to every room in the house? Do not buy all your furniture in one place. Oh, I love that one. Is that like the like the basic bitch of, um, of interior design? Yes, because it's about curation. Yeah. It's about also like you want things to surround yourself from travels and things that take time to curate your. Yeah, everything that you're surrounding yourself with. Because then it's more soulful and it's meaningful. Damn my. What is something that you used to aspire to that you no longer aspire to? It's tough, but it's perfectionism. Like I'm working very hard. My husband's like, just get it done and get it out there. Like you can't make it perfect. And you can't. You have to set things free and you like tweak it and massage it. You know, as it's been set free. Fair. What's the first thing you do in the morning and the last thing you do at night? I think I know. The first day or a ring, I've got to get my sleep score. And then. Does it affect your day if you have a bad sleep score? Like you feel it. Like it's so right. Like you do feel it. Wow. But I just like forged through. I just do it. And then the last thing I do is I kiss my husband. Like we always like, even if we're pissed off at each other, it's like you still kiss. Damn right. What is a book that's changed your life? The book that changed my life is a book by Rick Rubin, the creative act. And like I design from a place of creativity, emotion and things that feel so just so natural. And I'm not connected. Like I can envision something visually in my brain. And like it's not like I'm thinking philosophically about how I got to the solution of a design problem. And so it really helped me to think a little deeper. I love that. Right. My last question for you, Kelly. What are you aspiring to right now in your life? I'm aspiring to just continue to learn and to inspire people along the way. And being just a great mom and just myself, I guess. I love that. Just yourself. There she is. One of one, Kelly. Thank you so much. I love this. Amazing. Thank you. If you're loving this podcast, be sure to click follow on your favorite listening platform. While you're there, give us a review and a five-star rating and share an episode you love with your friend. You'll be so grateful. Aspire with Emigread is presented by Odyssey. I'm your host, Emigread. Executive producer, Ashley McShane, Derek Brown, and me are executive producers from Odyssey, Leary Stennis, Asha Saluja, Lauren Lagrasso, producer, KK Sublime. Steven Key is our senior producer, sound design and engineering by Bill Schultz. Angela Paluso is our booker, Original Music by Charles Black, video production by Evan Cox, Kurt Courtney, Andrew Steele, and Collar Stelgado, social media by Olivia Homan, Catherine Baill. Special thanks to Britney Smith, Sydney Ford, my teams at the lead company and WME. Maura Curran, Josephina Francis, Hillary Schuff, Eric Donnelly, Kate Hutchinson Rose, Tim Meakall, Sean Cherry, and Lauren Vieira. If you have questions for me, you could DM me at Aspire with Emigread. greed is spelled G-R-E-D-E, that's Aspire ASP-I-R-A with Emigread. Or you can submit a question to me on my website emigread.me.