How to Retain Your Associates

Thanks to litigation section premier sponsor Roundtable Group for sponsoring this podcast. Roundtable Group is an expert witness search and referral service with decades of experience and a comprehensive array of academic and industry relationships, as well as access to proprietary tools that further enhance the expert search capabilities of attorneys. With no upfront fees, you only pay if you retain an expert referred by Roundtable Group. Learn more at www.roundtablegroup.com Hello everyone and welcome to litigation radio. I'm your host Jim Reader. I'm a lawyer practicing an antitrust and commercial litigation in the Houston office of Jones Day. In addition to trying lawsuits, I've spent my entire career focused on helping young lawyers become great lawyers. On this show, we talk to the country's top litigators, judges, in-house counsel and academics to discover best practices for developing careers, winning cases, getting more clients and building a sustainable practice, all while staying well and happy. Be sure to subscribe to this podcast on your favorite podcasting app to make sure you never miss an episode. Litigation radio is brought to you by the Litigation section of the American Bar Association. It's where I make my home in the ABA and I'm a huge proponent of the section of litigation. This podcast is just one example of the dozens of resources the section of litigation provides litigators of all practice areas to help become successful trial lawyers for our clients. Learn more and become a member at AMBAR.org/litigation. Today we're talking about associate retention, how to keep young lawyers at your firm. I'm delighted to have as my guest Ben Dachapali, a partner practicing construction litigation in the Tampa office of Bradley, and someone who has successfully developed an approach to working with young lawyers that contributes to their retention. Welcome, Ben. Thank you. Excited to be here. So, Ben, first off, it's my belief that one of the things that helps contribute to our collective learning and civil discourse and understanding of each other is just getting to know each other. So, I think it provides incredible insight into why each of us thinks the way we do. As such, I like to start off by having our guests do two things. Share a bit of a thumbnail about your career and your career path, and then share something about yourself with us, something about your background, your childhood, and experience that has shaped who you are. Well, I think I'll start with the second question first. As a first-generation American, my parents moved over here from India, or immigrated here, in the 1960s, my dad's job as an engineer took them all over the country and frankly, all over the world. And so, we had to get used to moving quite a bit. And one of the most, I think, impactful times in my life was when we moved to Australia from the United States, where I was born and raised for most of the time, and for a period of time in Memphis, Tennessee, and then going to Australia. So, the effect that I went from y'all to today, and it was funny moving to a different country, especially being an impressionable young teenager, because you had all your friends and everything you knew and all the cultural Americanisms that you grew up, the Western habits that you grew up learning in the United States, and then going to another country, it was very interesting. It's a lot different than when you just go and visit a country. You know, when you live there, you get to really immerse yourself in the culture and the people, and the Australian people were just so friendly and so amazing. It really gave me an appreciation for other cultures and other people, and it certainly allowed me and forced me to make new friends, to learn how to make new friends, to learn how to interact with people from a different culture and a different background. And you know, and I think to this day, that was one of those the most challenging, but yet most rewarding experiences I've ever had, because it did teach me so much. And even though I went back to the United States for college, it was an experience and friendships that I gained in Australia that I continue to have to this day and hold dear. And I'm sure it expanded your world, essentially, I mean, we grow up in our world, it's just this tiny, and then all of a sudden you're facing a much bigger world. It really did, and it gave me a love and an appreciation for traveling and something that I try to pass along to my kids and take them to other countries and other cultures and have them experience that because you're right. We live in a bubble sometimes, and it's nice to break out of that bubble and see what the rest of the world has to offer. And it's learning from those different perspectives that I think has really shaped who I am today. All right. So then you get back to the United States, you go to law school, so tell us about your career path. Sure. You know, I did my undergrad at Purdue University. I was a aviation major, I thought I was in the flight program there, I thought I wanted to be a pilot. And you know, because I took this one international political science course, I ended up getting referred for an internship with an international lobbying firm in Washington, DC, and it was that experience, that summer, that I was there where I got to go to Capitol Hill and see how, you know, the sausage was made to see how bills were passed. It really kind of fascinated me about the practice of law. And I used that fascination as a pivot in my academic career to take the LSAT and go to law school. And I eventually made my way to Colorado because I'm a, you know, I love skiing and I had to get out of the corn fields of Indiana, but you know, I went to University of Denver's College of Law. And my first job out of law school was with a litigation firm that had a need in their construction group. So the practice of construction law didn't, I didn't choose it, it really just chose me. But being in that, in that group really, you know, sparked an interest in, in what construction law was all about. And eventually when my parents did move back to the United States, I wanted to move closer to them. They retired in Charleston, South Carolina. So I started looking at opportunities in the southeast and landed in Tampa, Florida, you know, working with a firm in their construction group and worked with a local firm in Tampa for almost 19 years until I made the move to Bradley to start their construction practice here in the state of Florida out of the Tampa office three years ago. It's so interesting. I do believe that more often than not, the practice area chooses us rather than us choosing the practice area, suspect that your path is is not indifferent from or different from a lot of people. You have been in Tampa, you've been practicing at a great firm and you, it turns out that you are, in fact, a great proponent of tools to keep young lawyers happy and retain them at law firms. I know you're not the first senior lawyer to think about associate retention. Now, I do think it's rare to see considerable organized thought around this subject beyond just, you know, a hope that associates will stay reasonably happy while they're churning out the work that, you know, most senior lawyers has main concern. Why is developing tools for associate retention rather than just free market thinking that the work should be enough? Why is that important? Yeah. I think there's a lot of reasons why it's so important, but, but first and foremost, I think in the practice of law is very hard, but it's also very rewarding and it becomes even more rewarding when you're able to develop a culture that encourages lawyers to be part of a team, if you will. The reason you got to develop these tools for associate retention is to a, create that culture, but also to maintain a continuity with the firm. I mean, you know, it's very easy for a law firm, you know, hiring practices to become transactional. And I just think that's the wrong approach. You want to encourage associates to stay with the firm. You want to build and develop that future generation of leaders of the firm, the future partners. We tell associates all the time or I like to tell them all the time when I'm interviewing them is, you know, I'm not interviewing, you know, my next associate, I'm interviewing my future partners. And I think that's the attitude and the symbolism of what you should have with respect to associate retention. And I think it's important for, especially in our respective firms, Jim, you know, we come from big law right now and in big lots, easy to get jaded and cynical with associate retention and, you know, the generations have changed over time. And I just think now more than ever in a hyper competitive marketplace, it's really important to retain associates because you're investing so much in them and you want them to invest in you and you want to create this future, you know, lifeblood of your firm. And you're not going to do that if there's a revolving door of associates out of your firm. And it will say something about, you know, the culture of your firm too. And I think that's why it's so important to develop these tools. If you treat hiring as a transactional matter, retention will become transactional as well. And you're much more likely to lose people just on a transaction basis if that's how you started with them. It seems that my, you know, my sort of take on it. And I think you're exactly right. It's good for the firm. It's good for the individual. Right? It works both ways. That's exactly right. I mean, you want the associate, again, like I said earlier, you know, because, you know, when you hire new associates, you invest a lot into them and you want them to feel that same sort of desire and reward and investing back into the firm. And you don't get that if they leave in two years or three years or whatever that, you know, transactional timeframe might be. You want them to commit to you just like you've committed to them. All right. So in your years of discovery, if you will, and identifying tools that are available to you to address associate retention, you have discovered something and you called it when we first talked the secret sauce. So what is, what is the secret sauce? You know, I don't really know how secret of a sauce it is, but it is something that I have found has helped create the type of culture you want to engender that keeps associates, you know, from always looking at other places or having that grass as green or attitude with respect to moving to other firms. And what I would call it is the team based approach to the practice of law. And I'm a big believer in operating as a team. I think you get better work product. The clients needs are better met. And there's a lot of joy in working in a team based environment. I mean, we're, it's human nature. You want to be surrounded by people, at least most people do. Most people like working in a team environment, especially when it's with people that are rowing in the same direction and have, you know, similar goals and aspirations as you do. So I really believe in the team based approach. And, and, and there's a lot of things that goes into that secret sauce, right? There's number one I would say is, you know, treating associates or communicating with them as peers. When you work on a team, you know, no one person on a team should be more important than the other team members. They're all valuable. And when you work on a team, you know, everyone's got a role. Everyone's got a job and with the common goal. And, and when you talk to associates, what I have found is that they really appreciate it when you're talking to them as a peer, as opposed to a subordinate. And I'm not saying that there aren't going to be times where you're, where you have to give demands and orders out there. Of course, there's going to be those opportunities or are those opportunities, but those, those times where it might be necessary. But by and large, I have found it, you know, incredibly successful to communicate with associates and they appreciate this and, and, and frankly, will want to work harder for you when they know that they're valued, when they know that they're considered an equal member of the team and, and, and you just simply talk to them in that fashion. This is key. I mean, because this is, you know, we, we talk about team work as if everybody understands what that means, right? And I, and I think everybody embraces the idea, okay, we're going to work in a team. There are five of us. So it's got to be a team, right? But how you work your team and how you, you treat each other and how you communicate and the opportunities you provide them, that's really the key to the, the teamwork concept. Absolutely. And, and a, and a, you know, just an example of this is, you know, what I like to do with a lot of my cases is, I'm a big, you know, mind mapping person. I like to, I visually learn. So I like to go into a conference room and map out the case and, and it's much better. It's much more enjoyable. It's much more effective when you can map out your case with your teammates. And so I will bring in my team, you know, my associates, my paralegal, sometimes even my legal assistant and just, and just walk them through all the issues and the tasks and the problems and the questions that we have to help solve. And getting their perspective is so valuable because they look at things and legal problems through a different lens than I do. And I think that's one of the most valuable things that a client can get is when they see, when you can, when you can, when you can basically play 4D chess and get different perspectives and angles on a problem that you yourself can't just figure out on your own. And having those tactile opportunities to collaborate with your team in a setting that gives them equal footing to you, brings it all home on this whole team based approach, you know, or secret sauce that you termed it when it comes to associate retention because I think when an associate feels valued and they feel like they are up here, it does bring additional, you know, value to them that, you know, beyond what, you know, all of us think about when we talk about associate retention. Yeah, so and you give them responsibility, they build trust, you have trust in them, they have trust in you. That's the, the, and we'll talk about sort of non-economic value that is conveyed in that environment, which is, is important. Yeah, and I think that's, I do think that's important, you know, Jim. I mean, this idea about, about giving them responsibility is really important. And I think as part of this team based approach, it's, you know, finding out what it is that they enjoy and giving them those kinds of opportunities and, and allowing them to take ownership in those types of opportunities. And again, it just gives them, I think, more ownership in any particular case or client matter. So providing them those opportunities and giving them responsibility will allow them to a build trust, you know, with you, but you also get trust in them and you're giving them these opportunities to build trust. And again, that's just a healthy relationship that you get to have with your associates in this team based approach. Well, and the other thing that is evident from what you're talking about is that, that these, we have to be adaptable. And I'm sure you've observed this, but this generations, you know, by that, I mean, young people 24, 25 to the early 30s, they think about their career in a different way than, than you or I did. And so it's not our job to change them. It's our job to, to recognize what that is. I mean, I take it, you've observed that. Yes, there is no doubt that young lawyers today come from a completely different generation than when you and I grew up. And I think it's very easy and cynical for lawyers of our generation to simply dismiss it and to say, you know what, we came up through the practice of law and learned a certain way by golly, you should too. Well, I just don't think that's how it works anymore. And I don't think we should be akin to that kind of thinking. And the reason why is, you know, this generation of lawyers, I mean, they have a much much greater appreciation to work-life balance and quality of life than I think we did. And not to say that we don't and we don't value it, but I think this generation, they've come up through the digital age, they've gone through, you know, COVID. They're now on the precipice of AI and all these technological advances. You know, you're in a situation where everyone lives in a bubble and you get to see what everyone is doing. And so this idea, this pho-mo generation, this fear of missing out generation, right, they really appreciate their quality of life. And I think, you know, law firms today, partners today, they need to appreciate and understand that. So we, as partners, should do what we can to let them know that a quality of life exists. There is work-life balance when you can manage it and you need to try to help them achieve that because if you don't, you know, they may leave and they may not want to stay. And the desires and the goals that we had as young lawyers are frankly different than they are for this generation and we need to appreciate and understand that. It's not a binary equation. That is, either you give them quality of life and therefore your work suffers or you don't give them quality of life and therefore you get the best work out of them. I think that over time you've seen this that you can have both, that you can try to adapt to their quality of life issues and at the same time get their best work. And in the end, it also probably contributes to, you know, ensuring that they don't burn out. Absolutely. And, you know, I think when you think about how do you enhance an associate's quality of life? You can do things you can look at. First and foremost, I think a senior lawyers, we need to appreciate the fact that young lawyers today have skills that frankly we don't. Young lawyers today are way more technologically advanced than we are. Frankly, young lawyers today are better researchers than we are because they've grown up now with the tools that allow them to be more advanced researchers. And in my case, and I suspect many others, they're frankly better writers, you know, and so we have to let them lean into these skills. And when you let them lean into these skills that they're really good at, I think again that provides them more value and more reward in the practice of law. And you're giving them frankly more ownership in these tasks and these opportunities. The other thing about quality of life, again, I think we live in a post-COVID world where everyone kind of got used to this idea of working from home and we're here in a video conference and a Zoom setting where connectivity can happen over a camera and over a fiber cable. So we have to lean into that and allow associates to work from home if they can be productive from home. And almost like, at least in our situation, we prefer to have people in office. Don't get me wrong. I think you build a culture and you have mentoring opportunities when you're in office. But for those that need it and for those that can be productive when they have it, giving them the flexibility to work from home and providing them the time off they need to prevent burnout to go on vacations, to have that time away. All that is, I think, needed from a quality of life perspective. Yeah, and it's not an easy calculus, obviously, because I think everybody is struggling. All the, you know, anybody that's got more than one employee is struggling with the situation of work from home and we don't need to turn this into a discussion about that. But I think you hit the nail on the head with regard to the notion of culture. It's important to this generation, young lawyers, and yet culture is not something necessarily that can be transferred via Zoom. And so, you know, I hear what you're saying, given what they need, but also, let's make sure that they are in the office to get what they need as well. Yeah, that's right. I mean, you know, it's easy to talk about associate retention in monetary terms. You can say, hey, you pay them more, maybe they'll stay, and that's great. But, you know, again, with respect to big law, you know, there's always going to be some law firm that might pay more. There's always going to be some opportunity that might pay more. But I really sincerely believe if you talk to, you know, today's young lawyer and young associate, they would trade a little bit more money for a better work-life balance or a better culture. And I would put an emphasis on the culture part because you could still have a situation where you're working very hard, and maybe there's another firm or an opportunity that might pay you a little bit more money. But if you're valued, if you're part of a team, and you're getting opportunities that allow you to take ownership, that culture will outweigh, you know, the non- or the monetary incentives. So I do think there's a lot to be said about the non-monetary components to associate retention. So this generation often gets characterized, I think, as lacking long-term vision, that they glaze over. If you start talking about what life's going to be five years from now or ten years from now, which is different from when we were coming into the practice of law, and we thought, okay, I'm going to have a 40-year career, and I'm going to start here, and I'm going to finish here, is that lack of long-term vision, an impediment to retention? I think a lot of people would say, oh, yeah, no, if we can't get them to see the world ten years from now or fifteen years from now, and how they're going to be a part of something bigger than them, then we're going to have more difficulty retaining them. How do you deal with that? How do you overcome that? Yeah, I think it's a recognition, good question. I think it's a recognition of the fact that young lawyers today don't necessarily have the same goals and aspirations that our generation had. So recognizing that the goals of a young lawyer today might be different is, I think, step one. Step two is, I think, really just, again, communicating with them and letting them know what their opportunities are and checking in with them. As a mentor to a few young lawyers in my group, I make it a point of sitting down with them and asking them, like, hey, what kind of assignments have you enjoyed doing? In construction law, we're fortunate enough where we can be both a transactional and litigation practice. I talk to young lawyers all the time asking them, like, hey, do you enjoy the transactional piece? No, let's get you more opportunities with that. As far as, so they can start seeing, okay, this is the type of practice I want to build. Finding out and communicating with them early on in the process and even when they're in the mid-level, as a mid-level associate, starting to communicate with them about the type of practice they want to build and then helping them and giving them tools and opportunities to go build that, I think is very important. The other thing I would say, especially for associates that are good, right, a good associate, you ask any senior partner, the value of a good associate cannot be understated. If they left, you can crater a senior partner's entire practice. I like to start talking to associates early on and if I see, you know, them as a future leader of this practice group or of my practice, I like to let them know right away that, hey, this practice can be yours. I mean, I don't plan on practicing, you know, for another 20 years and letting them know that, that you have this potential succession planning, you know, I think would then even give them more incentive to want to stay and to know that there is certainty down the road if I stay at this firm and providing them, you know, planting those seeds early on to let them know that, you know, we believe in succession planning at Bradley or we believe it's in succession planning in our firm, I think can be a huge advantage to retaining talented associates early on in the process. Yeah, I think that what we don't appreciate is the amount of change that a 25 or 30-year-old individual has gone through in 30 years. And we were kids. There was a certain amount of stability, things kind of stayed the same. There were no huge changes. And then if you've lived through a life where you've had this kind of thing happening and where you've then had COVID and then you've had, you know, changes here and you begin to be overwhelmed by the uncertainty of the future. And I think, I think you're right, if you can provide some clarity to them as to what the future might look like, they might start thinking about the future more, not that we need to change them or change their goals, but give them more information to be able to make those kinds of decisions. Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. Sometimes you need to pull the curtain back and let an associate know and just talk, talk, talk turkey with them and let them know that there are, you know, opportunities, you know, beyond what you currently see right in front of you 10 years down the road and letting them see what those various paths and options are, can go a long way to removing that uncertainty, you know, that they might have about the future and whether this firm or this practice group is the right place for them. Fast editing stuff. The young lawyers at Bradley are fortunate to have you there. Hopefully, some of the senior lawyers that are listening to us will take some of these tools and adapt to their young lawyers as well. They might even see a change, they might even see that their young associates become happier, more contented and in fact stay with them longer. That's the hope here. Ben, this has been awesome, really have enjoyed and unfortunately that's all the time we have, but thank you for being here. Again, I want to thank our guest, Ben Dachapali, Ben, you'll have to come back. Thank you for having me, Jim, it was my pleasure and really enjoyed the conversation. Our thanks to Litigation Section Premier Sponsor, Berkeley Research Group for sponsoring this podcast. BRG is an award-winning global consulting firm composed of world-class experts in accounting, damages analysis, economics, finance, intellectual property, valuation, data analytics and statistics. And they work across industries, disciplines and jurisdictions, delivering clear perspectives that you can count on their guiding principle is intelligence that works. Learn more at www.thinkbrg.com And now, it's time for our quick tip from the ABA Litigation Section. I'm pleased to welcome back to the show, Lauren Williams, Lauren Practices Corporate Law at Morgan Stanley in Columbia, South Carolina. Welcome, Lauren. What's your quick tip? Thank you, Jim. I'm so glad to be here, so this week's tip discusses managing up. As many of you know, law school does teach us how to brief cases, argue persuasively, maybe survive those daunting cold calls, but one thing that I know that it doesn't really teach us is how to navigate the people that we actually work with and how to really hone in on those soft skills. So today, I want to talk about something that every young lawyer, every new lawyer needs to know but rarely gets guidance on, and that's managing up in the workplace. So I have a few tips to share, and the first one is understanding your supervisor's style. So whether you're in a law firm working with a partner, a senior associate, or if you're in house counsel and you're working with an in-house client, your first job is to study how they work. So do they want updates via email? Do they want you to just drop by their office? Do they want to be looped in in every step of the process? Or do they just want the final product? Are they detailed oriented? Are they big picture-only? Those are several things that you consider. An approach tip is to just pay attention to how they work, their tone, their timing, and how they give feedback, how they communicate. Matching their communication style builds that report and that trust, and that trust is going to take you really far in your career and further than any perfect blue book citation that you can think of. Another tip is be a project manager, not just a task taker, and I know a lot of us don't think about being project managers in our profession in a sense. But in the litigation world, things tend to move fast. I know some cases can take years, but when you're doing some of the stuff behind the scenes, when you're having deadlines to meet and things that just come up, those things move kind of fast. And, you know, a lot of partners and senior associates or senior councils or general counsel, they don't want to chase you down for status updates. So it's important to just keep your own system, create those internal deadlines, and just stay a step ahead. Like, for example, if you have a, let's say, a motion that's due Friday, don't wait until Thursday night to ask those questions, you know, maybe early and no week, you want to just say, I'm just confirming that I need to send this draft by this day. Let me know if there's anything else I should factor in. Keeping those lines of communication opens, let's then know that you can, that they can trust you to manage these things and that you're thinking like a litigator. Just stay in a step ahead and you're not just a worker beach is waiting for instructions. You can be proactive. Another tip, don't just bring them to problem, bring the path forward. So if you're confused or something just goes off track, do not panic, don't say, I'm stuck. Instead, you know, come to them and say, you know, hey, I came across this issue and I see there are some possible solutions for how we can address this. And here's what I'm thinking, does this make sense? This gives you the mindset of a collaborator, not a burden, not you bring in a problem for them to solve. And litigation is all about problem solving under pressure. Show them that you got the mindset to lead to collaborate and to communicate, not just follow instructions. Another tip is learn their priorities. You may be focused on getting a draft done or getting a file moved. Your supervisor may be focused on a client expectations, billing constraints, the relationship with the client, how opposing counsel is going to spend the argument, ask questions like, you know, what's the top concern for this? What's the priority? Is there a tone that we want to emphasize in this filing? What's the theme that we're focused on? When you show that you care about the bigger picture, you're more than just a, you know, entry level associate or even a junior level associate, you become essential. Make sure that you market yourself as being valuable and essential. And lastly, I just want to just give some encouragement because I know that is this can be daunting to think about because these are things that we don't learn off the gate when we graduate from law school. So managing up isn't about people pleasing, it's about being strategic and positioning yourself. When you learn how to anticipate, communicate, collaborate, you do earn trust and trust gets you better work, it gets you more visibility, more responsibility and faster growth. But you don't want to just be good at law. You want to be great. You want to be great to work with. You want to have a great reputation and that's what keeps your reputation intact and you know if you're like a solo practitioner or even if you're a legal consultant that works with other firms, it helps to build your brand. So that's my litigation tip for this week. So go out there and practice with intention and purpose. Alright, thanks Lauren for that tip, a reminder to be sure and subscribe to litigation radio on your favorite podcasting app so you don't miss our next episode. And spread the word. If you like the show, please help spread the word by sharing a link to this episode with a friend or through a post on social media and invite others to join the show and community. If you want to leave a review over at Apple Podcasts, it's incredibly helpful. Even a quick rating over at Spotify Podcasts would be great. All that is super helpful as well. Finally, I want to quickly thank some folks who make this show possible thanks to Michelle Obertz, who is the producer on staff with the litigation section. Thanks also go out to the co-chairs of the lituscation section's audio content committee, Haley Maple and Mike Stager. Thank you to the audio professionals from Legal Talk Network. And last but not least, thanks to you for listening. I'm Jim Reader, talk to you later. [Music]