418. How to repair a friendship

This is an I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human Joy is essential and it's also elusive, but now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101, it's a new podcast hosted by me, Houda Kotby. If you're craving inspiration to maximize your joy, tune into these candid uplifting and moving on air chats. When you're free I Heart Radio App Search Joy 101 and listen now. Joy 101 with Houda Kotby is presented by CVS. Hey everyone, it's the Jonas Brothers. If you haven't heard, Arnie Podcast is called Hey Jonas. And this week we're hanging out with someone we're really big fans of. Millie Bobby Brown. We talk about her new movie and all of home's three family life and all the amazing things she has going on right now. Plus we find out what she really feels about this ranger thing's ending. You have over 60 animals. I don't know whether number 60 I really got to figure that out. There have been plenty of sheep in my bed. Yeah, literally sleeping in the bed. Listen to Hey Jonas on the I Heart Radio App, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. My first guest is Paris Totten. Shakira, Luke and Yerin. Have surprises. Mm-hmm. Many surprises. Welcome to the sweet 305 podcast where the new tech comes to life. What? You're the only person I know that loves the Yellow Starburst. Lemonade. This is Sweet 305. Here, oversharing is encouraged. Listen to Sweet 305 with Lela Ponds on the I Heart Radio App, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. My husband is a despot reserved with his mistress right now and I'm calling the hotel to confront them both. Wait a minute Dakota, she's calling the hotel while they're checked in together. Yeah, that's right, Sophia. And it gets worse. It's vacate the vacation week on the okay story time podcast where she caught him buying gifts on Amazon and then taped the 10 page letter inside his luggage before he flew out. So she planted evidence before he even took off? And spoiler, Sophia, two years later, karma hits so hard he's calling his ex-wife in tears, saying about his mistress. What a mistake that was. To find out what happened, listen to the okay story time podcast on the I Heart Radio App, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Brennan and on my podcast, Discrease Land. I tell the stories behind music's biggest names, like how the story of the food fighters isn't just about music, it's about grief, shock, and the moment everything changed. Imagine that. You're in the biggest band on the planet as Dave Grohl was in 1994 in Nirvana. In the phone rings, and you learn that you're singer, your friend, the reluctant voice of a generation, Kurt Cobain is dead. Listen to Discrease Land on the I Heart Radio App, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, everybody. I'm Gemma Spek and welcome back to the psychology of your 20s, the podcast where we talk through the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our 20s and what they mean for our psychology. Hello, everybody. Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is so great to have you here. Back for another episode. Back for a very important episode of the psychology of your 20s. You know what I always find so weird about being alive in the stand-age? We have so much information and so much knowledge about literally everything. We know what stars are made of. We know how old trees are. We understand complex maths. We just don't like, was it like eight people to the moon? Schools will teach you all these things. They will literally spend 15 years teaching you what essentially ends up amounting to fun facts. And no one will ever talk about like the crucial foundational things to do with friendships, to do with relationships, to do with maintaining connections. Like despite them being the most important parts of being alive, I was never taught how to tell if like somebody is just using you. I was never taught how to deal with conflict in the family. And I was definitely never given any formal or even informal instruction on how to repair and mend a friendship. And I would bet a lot of money that neither were you. So I wanted to talk about it today and just see what was out there in terms of the best and worst ways to go about tricky situations with your friends. There's so much emphasis these days as well on building community and being the village are like that is everywhere you see, everywhere you look online, somebody is posting or talking about how to make friends offline, how to be a better neighbor and all that stuff. And I actually rarely see people talk about the less attractive parts of that, which is fighting with friends, how to handle conflict, why it's normal to be annoyed with the people you care about and how to get through that, how to survive some of the deepest hurts coming from your friends. I feel like it is this major gap in our understanding and conversations as humans that never gets talked about. And as somebody who has had some pretty serious friendships, like explosions in the past, five years and then in my 20s, some of which were entirely my fault, but some of which were just good old fashioned miscommunication. I just feel like this is the hard no nonsense advice I still need, but have needed for having awkward conversations with the people that I love who are my friends. So without further ado, let's get into our guide on how to repair a friendship. In my opinion, friendship full outs are like a life defining pain in many ways, like falling out with your friends, arguing with your friends, having conflict can change the course of our lives at times. I also think losing a friend is a form of grief that no one wants to get into. Nobody wants to touch that. Nobody talks about it enough, probably because we devalue the necessity of friendship in the modern world and we kind of see them as expendable. I really think that friendship full outs can be even more devastating than romantic ones. When you have a romantic breakup, people around you, like they know how to treat you. There's like an agreed upon grieving period. They know that like you're going to be very sad. They know to throw ice cream at the situation, but when it's a friend, people just kind of expect you to be normal. I also think there are like unconscious rules for fighting in a relationship, right? You kind of know in a relationship that you need to resolve things between like 24 and 72 hours. You're a lot more dependent on each other, so there's like more humility. If you can't get through it, you just break up and that's it, like you break up. You can be fighting with a friend for like months and it can linger in a way it doesn't with a partner. You can at times never get to a resolution and just like never speak again and eventually like you are just these two strangers who for a time loved and cared for each other. And now you just have this weird baggage. You don't even really understand anymore. I think friendships, we expect them to be these super steady things. We expect them to be our most dependable relationships in many ways. They are not. And the older you get, you realize how much conflict does actually show up in friendship. I would say there are three types of friendship breakups. The Fizzle, the blow up and the miscommunication. First is the slow Fizzle. We have all experienced this. I'm so sure of it. Time just simply like changes the strength of a bond. A close friendship becomes less close. You kind of gently fade away from each other's lives. You see each other less. You catch up less and it's I think personally it gets to a stage where it's like mutually understood that you're both a little bit okay with it. This might be because of distance. Classic example is like after you leave uni. But also somebody gets into a relationship. Somebody gets a partner and that just like completely disrupts the dynamic. I think especially in our 20s it's like the most major source of the Fizzle especially amongst really close friends like somebody gets a partner. And the central relationship is replaced at the center of orbit shifts from your friends to the person you're romantically interested in whether we like it or not. Meaning you just become less available. The friendship slowly diminishes because you're not having those opportunities for close contact. That is the first friendship fallout that we typically see. We also can fall out with our friends because of communication. This is like a classic situation. Nobody is distinctly in the wrong. But both people have a hard time or are unable to understand the other person's perspective. Both people are wounded by the miscommunication. And often or maybe it's just one person but often neither person either one person doesn't really know what's going on or neither person is really willing to recognize like that the other person didn't hurt the amount of ill intent. But they just are left with the wound separate from the intention. And so it's kind of hard to be around them or you just kind of never get around to talking to this person. And so either you let it linger or it does end up becoming the Fizzle. And then we have the full on friendship blowout. And I think this gets all the attention. We are talking about someone or both people doing something really bad, severely violating trust, betrayal. Situations that just expose deep cracks in the friendship. Somebody has done something deeply and considerate. Somebody has broken promises. Maybe somebody has hurt even the people that you love, like family, other friends of yours, your partner in a way that you really never expected them to. These can be these are these not can be these are painful and intense. I also think that of those three of the fizzle the miscommunication and the and the blow up sometimes these are the easiest to recover from because a moment like that of just like such just like just like just a nuclear bomb on the friendship. You kind of know the friendship is dead like there's just a certainty there that other friendship for that don't always have like obviously all of them all of them hurt all of these situations are painful. That's definitely for sure. You're losing somebody who is like really steady or you're losing somebody that you really care about. But I think when it comes to the major fallouts, the closure is like in the story. When it comes to the fizzle when it comes to the miscommunication, that's why things get complicated. But I also think those are the situations that we can recover from and that we're kind of focusing on today. Moments that are really uncomfortable moments that feel difficult that feel let's just be real awkward. But where I think if you just put a little bit of effort into saving the relationship, it can be mended if you have the tools. So let's talk about it. How do we repair these kinds of situations? I think the first step, the major step is understanding the psychology behind why we avoid confrontation and why we avoid admitting our mistakes. Considering how important friendship is, literally there have been studies after studies showing they're the most valuable thing for our health and well-being in our lives. It still does always fascinate me how hard it is for us to fight for them. I'm very guilty of this myself. Like I probably don't even want to admit it to myself that I am guilty of this, but I know I am. And there's a sciences to why we have this kind of avoidance. 90% of it is ego and not in their like, I'm better than everybody kind of way. I'm the shit kind of way in the self-protection way. Our ego, this is something I always impressed on people when I talk about ego. It is not just responsible for our self-esteem. It is responsible for helping us to avoid all feelings of pain, all feelings of rejection or disappointment that may run counter to our internal sense of stability. That means that it can often cause us to act in very irrational ways just so that we feel safe in our idea of ourselves and in our idea and our concept of the world. Our ego though, because of this function, it just ends up like getting in the way of being able to admit that you're wrong. Like it is this big, our ego is this big God that stops us from ever feeling bad about ourselves. However, that causes problems when we're trying to repair a friendship, because it means that admitting that we're wrong becomes incredibly difficult and opposed to how like intrinsic psychological sense of self-righteousness. It makes it really hard to come to the realization that we may not be the person we think we are. We are flawed, we are sometimes impulsive, we are sometimes in the wrong, sometimes we have we have the unkind ones. When we fall out with a friend, right, the chaos of that emotion and the surge of emotion to defend and rationalize our actions and to protect our ego, often does the opposite thing to what we should be doing. It's just there to make us feel superior. When we are in these situations where people hurt, being superior is like the last thing that we should be prioritizing, but we cannot help it. That instinct to defend an attack is incredibly strong. I think this is also exacerbated by this sunk cost feeling. When we've committed to something to a point of view, to us being right, it becomes harder for us to leave that behind. We become very entrenched in it. Obviously, this can happen in so many situations. It happens with relationships, it happens with jobs, and then of course, it does happen with our experiences and it happens without arguments and it happens without feelings and it causes the strange situation where deep down, we know we need to amend our perspective. We know there are things that we need to admit to, but this deeper, unconscious part of us keeps blocking us from doing so. This is like an interesting tidbit and interesting sidebar studies have shown that young women in particular stay angry towards their female friends for longer because of this mechanism, especially compared to men. And what they think it is is because social standing and the threat of social rejection is a lot stronger for women, they feel a deeper sense that they need to protect themselves. A study from 2014 had students role play a real conflict scenario from their own lives. They recorded the male responses, the female responses, and again, they found that women reported that anger dissipated a lot less quickly and it took them longer to reconcile. Their heart rate was also higher, social conflict impacted them on a more psychological and emotional level than it did for men. And I don't want you to take these results out of context and be like, women are emotional, women are insecure, women are just these like, "Pee brain, whatever, whatever." It's just that they often stick with their first intuition for longer, such as an interesting fact about the role of the ego and the gender differences. I think the second reason we find it hard to admit our mistakes or really get into like the core of a friendship fallout is because of avoidance. And the fact that avoidance feels a lot like control in a situation that is beyond our control, especially if you're an anxious person, especially if you are somebody who is a very socially anxious person, just as we might avoid, I don't know, going to the dentist, you know, we're afraid to get a needle or have a feeling. It just as we avoid those things, we also avoid someone we are disagreeing with. We avoid having what we know is a much needed conversation because we don't want to feel uncomfortable emotions. Emotions like disappointment, anger, sadness, guilt, disrupt our emotional center. And it feels, it makes us feel very out of depth as well to confront somebody else's emotions that are similar to us, like their confusion and their anger. Again, this is not because we are cruel or uncarrying. If you are in this situation now where you're like, "I know I need to have this conversation. I cannot do it." It's all because you are trying to maintain emotional control. When we avoid things, we control our emotional world by avoiding disrupting it with short-term disruptions and short-term anxiety and emotional chaos. But the thing is that's not a real solution. Short-term avoidance. You know, that can lead, and often does lead, and will lead to long-term resentment, to disappointment, to irreversible harm and feelings of hurt that most importantly, increasingly diminish the likelihood that things will ever be fixed. I think that was a double negative. But yeah, increasingly diminish. They just continue to diminish the chances that things are going to get better. I also think my final reason why I think that we avoid these kind of situations is because oftentimes we're waiting for a clarity about the situation that we think only comes from distance. We probably don't know how to feel about the friendship. We're kind of a bit confused about what we want from the friendship because things are so like, have changed so quickly because we don't have all the information. And so we dilute ourselves into thinking in that state of ambiguity that the more we think about the situation, the more we get others' opinions, the more we let the dust settle, the more clearly we will start to see things as they are. But in my experience, this is just putting off the, like, the ability to really tackle the core emotion. And I don't think that time ever makes things more clear after a certain point. Obviously, there's immense value in calming down, like after an initial dispute or after a fight or after a disagreement. That's like emotional regulation 101. But when you keep thinking that an answer will come from talking about it over and over again, especially with people who are not that person or the person you have a problem with, that's avoidance. And speaking from direct personal experience, I think that deep down you probably know what you need to do. And I think you know what outcome or what apology or what answer you want. And this applies in all directions, by the way, whether you feel like you're the one responsible for the rift or you're the one who was hurt, you know. And I think repairing a friendship, what this is all telling us is that it's really just an ego exercise at the end of the day because it means and requires like the psychological necessity number one is that at some point you will have to admit your fault as a friend. Even if you were 100% right in that situation, even if your only fault is that now you're avoiding saying what you're feeling, it is an ego exercise. It's going to cause you to have to really examine how you maybe messed up. So with that in mind, we're going to take a short break and we're just going to get right into it step by step, no nonsense guide. How are we going to approach this person? What text message are we going to send them? How are we going to have the conversation? We're going to talk about it after the short break. So stay with us. Kota Kota, okay, if you know me, you know this. I'm always searching for inspiration, for support, and useful tools to help maximize joy. So this podcast lets us uncover all of that together. We're going to have these meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people. Like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges that she never saw coming. I've gone through breast cancer and it helped my mother through breast cancer and that was more difficult. There's a lot of people who understand postpartum depression. I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety. Olympic champ Sean Johnson revealed why she had no choice but to be a gymnast. There was something about gymnastics that was intoxicating to me. It's given me a belief that we all have one of those treasures inside of us. We just have to find it. Listen to Joy 101 with Hota Kota, me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My husband is currently on a vacation with his mistress and I'm confronting them. Tell me, Sophia, how did she even catch them? One Amazon shopping receipt. He accidentally sent her a photo of the kid's Christmas gifts with a delivery to another woman at the bottom. He exposed himself. That's a rookie move. Couples, massages, monogrammed bath robes, and lingerie, he met motor for. So she spent four weeks gathering evidence and taped a 10 page letter inside his luggage before he flew out. In his luggage, she came to plan. And the second he landed, he blocked her. So she called the hotel room directly and got the mistress on the phone. She got the mistress live on the phone. That is a bold move. Let's see if it pays off. That gets worse. He took the mistress on the Bahamas honeymoon trip. He had planned with his wife and then the mistress tagged him on Facebook, outing the fare to her entire family. That's like a whole public confession. And spoiler two years later, karma hit some so hard. He's calling his ex-wife in tears, saying about the mistress, "What a mistake that was." To find out what happened, listen to the okay story time podcast on the I-Hard Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. If you haven't heard, Arnie Podcast is called, "Hey Jonas." And this week we're hanging out with someone we're really big fans of. Millie Bobby Brown, that's right, 11 herself. Of course. Of course. Blue my mind when I saw this, Millie Bobby Brown. First of all, how do you even keep track of everybody? And second, do you have favorites? Who are they? And why? Yeah, I need to know about this. Okay, I don't know where the number 60, and I really got to figure that out. And I could actually have over 60. I just need to really know that number. There have been plenty of sheep in my bed and yeah, in the bed. Literally sleeping in the bed, yeah. Plus we find out what she really feels about stranger things in. Five seasons, almost 10 years of your life. I could have never guessed it. I started when I was 10 years old. Our conversation with Millie Bobby Brown is out now. Go check it out. Listen to Hey Jonas on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. My first guest is Paris Hilton. Shakira. Luke and Yerin. Samira E. Glaci. I'm so excited. On the bouncy bed. You have surprises. Many surprises. Welcome to sweet 305 where the good chat comes to life. What up? You're the only person I know that loves the yellow starbursts. It's lemon. This is sweet 305. Listen to sweet 305 with Lele Ponds as part of my Dolby Dura podcast network on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Brennan, and on the Discretsland podcast, I explore the wild lives of rock stars in unbelievable true crime stories from music history. These are the stories you haven't heard. The kind you'll end up telling someone else. Like the time Paul McCartney spent in one of the world's most notorious prisons. Imagine that. Your Paul McCartney. It's 1980. You're an ex-beetle. In your doing time in one of Japan's worst prisons, right there alongside Yakuza Gangsters and for a ridiculous church. Or the bizarre crime Lady Gaga is accused of. Who is the artist Lady Gaga is being accused of doing the unthinkable to after allegedly stealing her music in style to become famous? And what about that time Blondie's Debbie Harry escaped a serial killer. The man who had given her that ride she barely escaped from was Ted Bundy. Listen to Discretsland on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts or ever you get your podcasts. Let me say I do think some of what we're about to talk about is going to be fairly obvious to you. Especially if you're like a very emotionally intelligence switched on person. That doesn't mean that we're applying it though. Just because you know doesn't mean that you're putting it into practice. I think this is a common issue with being a very self-aware individual. Like you could have all the information and none of the execution. So whatever situation you're in right now, I want you to really picture your situation in this context and just consider in every point like how would I go about this? How am I going to apply this understanding? There's also a big question lingering here as well, which is like is my friendship worth saving? Is this friendship best left in the past? I think yeah some are. Some friendships are best left. They're done, right? The hurt goes too deep. The situation is too unbearable. You don't want to be friends with them anymore. That's just sometimes the outcome. But I think that you're listening to this episode for a reason. And I think when you feel that tug and that lingering sense of like I miss them, I still care about them. There's something left there. Then it's worth repairing. So the first thing that you're going to do if you want to repair the friendship is just reflect on why you want to mend it. Like what do you seek to gain? There's no point mending a friendship. If you don't know why you value the friendship. If you don't know what you want to change. If you don't actually see a future with that person, just really dig in deep. What is it about this person? Like honestly, it's also a great humanizing exercise. What is it about this person that you miss? What are your regrets to do with this person? Do you with this situation? Do you feel like there's a misunderstanding you could overcome? Do you feel like there are ways that you could both learn from each other? Do you want to mend the friendship to make things less uncomfortable for an upcoming event? Like what is your intention? Because they are going to be different, right? Maybe your intention is like you feel guilty. And like you feel like you owe them an apology. Everybody's motivation is going to be very, very different. Try and identify what it is that yours is. And the difference between a friendship that you actively want to continue and a situation that you just think deserves closure. But not necessarily the continuation of the relationship. I think both of those situations are equally worthwhile. They're both very worthwhile options, right? Compared to the alternative of leaving the situation, just like open and festering and like never with any closure. But they're going to necessitate a different approach, right? They're both worthwhile, but you're going to have to go about it a little bit differently because wanting a friendship to repair means that you're going to have to do a couple of extra steps, wanting a friendship to just have closure and understanding. Kind of means that you know, there doesn't really need to be behavioral change for the other person. So it's more about like the conversation and it probably could be resolved by a couple of hours of just real deep talking. So just knowing that is very, very valuable. Secondly, once you've kind of identified your motivation, you have that increased self-awareness around your intentions. I think then the time comes to admit to yourself what you did wrong or what you could have done better. This might be controversial. If you want to repair a friendship, you need to humble yourself, even if they played a role as well, even if they played the main role. I know people won't agree with this. This is an ego exercise though. And obviously, this is probably a miscommunication. This is a physical, it's not a crazy breakdown. You going in guns blazing, ready to defend yourself and ready to defend your position to the death, unable to make any concessions. This is not gonna be productive, right? Humbling yourself, admitting what you have done wrong, even if it's just one or two things, is important for this God, which is to repair the friendship, because it's not about scoring points, it's about restoring psychological safety, it's about restoring trust. And when you're unwilling to acknowledge your role, even a small part, I think it signals defensiveness. And I think, and I know, study shows that defensiveness is the thing that's gonna immediately activate the other person's threat response. They're immediately gonna go on the defensiveness, like the defensive they're gonna feel, unheard, invalidated, they're gonna become more entrenched in their own position, because that's where they feel safest. Again, this is closely tied to our eager defense mechanisms. We wanna protect ourselves, we don't wanna feel like, we are a bad person. But it also shows that we're probably going in with some cognitive dissonance, where resisting some information that challenges our sense of being the good one. Information or facts that may actually be there. And I think beyond that, just by humbling yourself, you, you allow yourself to be more present, and you allow yourself to have more empathy for them. You will, you lower the emotional stakes, you model accountability, and researchers have also seen that it creates what we call a reciprocity of vulnerability. Basically, when one person softens, and one person says, I'm sorry for this, sets the emotional tone of openness, says I'm willing to learn, the other person is far more likely to follow, so it's a lot more fruitful. I just think that it makes it, it just shifts the dynamic and the tone from adversarial to collaborative. And guess what, even if the other person doesn't do this as well, even if this person is unwilling to humble themselves, it's still effective, and it still means that you get to walk out with more clarity, because you'll be able to say, like I stepped into their shoes, I got the birds I view, I was willing to take accountability, this part of my job is done. The next step for repairing a friendship is probably the hottest one, but somebody needs to reach out first, right? Like, or if you're still in that awkward state of like, we both know something's wrong, but neither of us really wants to touch it. If you're in that situation, one of you needs to initiate that like, we need to talk protocol. And I think it should be you, and I can totally, I feel like I can sense it, you roll your eyes, you groan, you took a deep breath, I know it sucks, but I think you know I'm right as well. You're the one who's listening to this, you're the one who knows something's wrong. You're the one who has the intention of repairing a friendship, so you're gonna have to be the bigger person. I'm gonna talk you through exactly what you're gonna say, what you're gonna send, don't worry, you won't be alone, but it has to be you. When you go to send the text, 'cause I think it's worth preparing somebody that you wanna have the conversation rather than just like being like, "Boo, we're gonna talk about it." Firstly, don't send the message late at night and don't send it from a place of hostility. I had a friendship broke up when I was like 20, where a friend of mine texted me, probably one of the meanest messages I have ever received in my life at like 2 a.m. in the morning, essentially being like, "We need to figure this out." But by the way, you're in the wrong. That was the day of my grandfather's funeral. 2 a.m. the day of my grandfather's funeral. He sent me that message. Any hope of us repairing that friendship was like, "Go on in that second." I knew I had serious things to apologize for. I knew that I'd messed up, but I was just like, "This is so emotionally unsettling and it's so clear to me that you don't, like you just want to yell at me." And there's not gonna be any collaboration here that it was just like that, it's done. If your intentions are to get somewhere from this, 5 p.m. 6 p.m. after work, they have time to sit with it. State your intentions, clearly over tech. So like, "Do you want to apologize? Do you want to talk? Do you want to figure out what happened? Do you want to find a way through?" Highlight the situation you are talking about, like, "And tell your friend what the ideal outcome is in your text message." Remember, in this episode, we are talking about how to repair a friendship. This is like the best way you can go about it to get that outcome. This is like a make your own adventure text message, right? But you can use this structure for everything, you know? I'll give an example. Like, there's a difference between, I wanna talk about what happened at the wedding intention, so that we can be amicable for the next wedding outcome and talk, like, intention, action, outcome. Versus something like, "I wanna apologize for what I said to our mutual friend because I think that we can get through this." Again, intention, outcome, action. And then like another one, just for fun. Like, I felt hurt by your actions a few weeks back. I wanna clear the air so that we can reach a mutual understanding and move forward. Like, that structure works always. I think it probably would even work for a real breakup, but that's for another time. I think it's really scary to be the one to acknowledge that there's a problem, but by staying in out loud, I think you're one step closer to being able to just move on. There's this amazing book by Claire Cohen called "The Truth About Female Friendship" and great book, by the way, but she talks a lot in her book about how until somebody takes that first step, the situation only exists in each other's heads. And when it sits in your head, it's mutated over and over again by you replaying and you adding assumptions and you having conversations with other people and it's adding all these ingredients in until it becomes just like a nuclear version of what it once was. Like, keeping it inside is like keeping it in like a toxic incubator until the conflict ends up representing something that it never was to begin with. The easiest way to kill this kind of beast and to stop this from developing is just like, to straight up be like, let's just freaking tear it open and talk about it. Even if it turns out nothing will change their mind, even if they don't want to talk to you, that is still closure in its own form. As I just mentioned, like, there is that alternative, that alternative and that outcome is always possible. They may say no, they might ghost you. And at that stage, as much as I said, fight for your friends, just leave it. Like, you did what you thought was right and best for you. They're gonna do the same thing. It goes without saying that, you know, you shouldn't force the other person to engage with you if they don't want to. And trust me, I get it. I understand just how hurtful it can be for you to like, really put your heart on the line. And to be like, really vulnerable and reaching out in the first place and for them to just be like, no. It hurts basically a form of social rejection, but so much more like, vulnerable. But I still think that's an answer. Like, I know it's probably harder than if you had had the conversation because there's this ambiguous loss and it's obvious they have some very strong opinions that they'll, that you'll never hear and they'll never share with you. And that means that you have to close the story. But sometimes that's just life, right? That's a lesson in other ways. That's a lesson not in humility but in acceptance. And that's just the risk of ever being close to anybody. Sometimes they don't see the importance of fighting for friendship. Sometimes they don't see the importance of repairing. Sometimes you have done things that you don't realize were immensely hurt, like harmful, that they don't want to talk about. And that's just the way things are. Don't go digging, don't go pushing. There is, there is again, a lesson in creating our own closure. I actually found it helpful. I went through a situation like this, where I was like, I really have probably screwed up. I want to talk about it. I also didn't really know what had happened and she didn't want to talk to me. And I made this list because I was like obsessing over it and I made this huge list of like, everything I loved about this person, everything I wanted, you like everything I wanted for her, how happy I wanted to see her. And I also just kept saying like, this is the only way it could have gone. The role we played in each other's lives is over but the role we played was important, nonetheless, this is just had to be this way. This is just the state of our friendship. And I actually saw her walking in London recently, walking down my street in a different country with her partner. And I was a bit of a coward across the road, but I kind of like looked back at her just like, I don't know, we never got the closure but she looked really happy and she just seemed really happy. And maybe if we tried to fix things at that time and if she had breached out and accepted my like, want my desire to like talk about it, or we wouldn't be in the situations we were now we were happier, not as friends. I just feel like that made sense to me in that moment that the future that we needed meant that we couldn't be friends anymore. And look at us both in these futures, very, very happy. And that was worth more to me than the closure conversation and figuring out what went wrong and why and rehashing details. Not to say that's every situation, but I think sometimes that is the situation. And now me having the high-end side of being through that situation and six years later being like, wow, just like a breakup. It all works out the way it should be like is just something I kind of want to, I don't know, impart on you, I guess. But back to the chat, back to how we're going to approach when somebody says, yes, I think we do need to discuss rather than the worst case scenario of nothing. Prepare for the awkwardness and prepare to possibly feel deeply misunderstood. I've just part, you're coming to this, like the reason you're in this situation is because somebody was misunderstood and things were confusing. And that's going to be like ripping off a band-aid, like it's going to be deeply uncomfortable. And then you're going to find such relief that it's just the ambiguity is slowly disappearing. I also want you to trust that you're an adult, you can handle conflict. You can handle being uncomfortable. And in part, friction is an important and is a necessity for growth and becoming a better person. Seeing the friend and person as well will also help you with this. Seeing that they are flesh and blood, remembering that they deserve empathy is so much more valuable than having an argument over text or even over the phone. It's harder, it's worth it. And just give yourself a lot of time. Like if you're going to have this conversation, prepare to feel awkward, also prepare like a couple of hours. Like prepare a couple of hours to really hash things out. And I think if you give yourself that space, I don't know anybody who has ever regretted having a conversation like this with a friend. Even if it was awkward to begin with, even if the outcome was less than ideal, because I think putting yourself in what is going to be an awkward situation, firstly gives you answers. Secondly, probably will repair your friendship. And it's also just really self-affirming in a way, even if it doesn't go right. I don't know if this makes sense, but I think being willing to put yourself in uncomfortable situations proves that you are a person that fights for your friends. Proves that you are somebody who endures uncomfortable things for those they love. Proves that you are honest. Proves that you can embrace raw human emotion. And that you are the person that you say you are. Like I can't even if it doesn't go your way, even if it makes you really anxious. You can always leave that situation being like at least I tried, at least I thought. And here is proof that I live out my values. I say I'm a good person. I say I'm somebody who has hard conversations. I say I'm a good friend. Here is the evidence. I enjoyed this discomfort. I did the thing that was not the easiest thing for somebody that I cared about. And that in itself is I think a, I don't know, I think just good for our self-esteem and good for our future capacity as a friend. Okay, let's take one more short break here before we talk about a few other things that you can prepare for. And what happens after the hard conversation is over. Stay with us. Hey, I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby. Okay, if you know me, you know this. I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer and that was more difficult. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My husband is currently on vacation with his mistress and I'm confronting them. He exposed himself. Couples massages, monogrammed bath robes and lingerie he met motor for. In his luggage, she came to play. That is a bold move. That gets worse. And spoiler two years later, karma hit some so hard he's calling his ex-wife into yours saying about the mistress. Find out what happened. Listen to the okay story time podcast on the iHeartRadio app. Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. If you haven't heard, our new podcast is called Hey Jonas. Millie Bobby Brown. That's right. 11 herself. We talk about her new movie and all of home three family life and all the amazing things she has going on right now. This is blue my mind when I saw this. Millie Bobby Brown. First of all, how do you even keep track of everybody in second? Do you have favorites? Who are they and why? Okay, I don't know where the number 60 and I really got to figure that out and I could actually have over 60. There have been plenty of sheep in my bed and yeah, in the bed, literally sleeping in the bed. Plus we find out what she really feels about stranger things and five seasons, almost ten years of your life. I started when I was ten years old. Go check it out. Hey, Jonas on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. My first guest is Paris Hilton, Shakira, Luke and Yerin. Samira and Gracie. I'm so excited. I'm so excited. On the bouncy bed. You have surprises. You have many surprises. What up? What up? It's like a form of a sweet, like, "Hola amiga. Hola mejor amiga. Hola hermana. What up?" I've never seen her with anyone. Except for my kids. My kids know. Yes. Yes, my lover. Oh. Oh, she's incredible. She's incredible. She's incredible. She's incredible. She's incredible. It's woman. No, it's not someone who needs you, as I said, I would like to collaborate with this person. This is Sweet 305. Listen to Sweet 305 with Lele Ponds as part of my "The Buddha Podcast Network" on the iHot Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Brennan, and on the Discretsland Podcast, I explore the wild lives of rock stars in unbelievable true crime stories for music history. Imagine that. Your Paul McCartney. It's 1980. You're an ex-beetle. Who is the artist Lady Gaga is being accused of doing the unthinkable to after allegedly stealing her music and style to become famous? Listen to Discretsland on the iHot Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. When it comes to having hog conversations with people you love about situations you really don't love, one of the best pieces of advice I've ever received came from a mentor I had at my corporate job who told me in any conflict situation prepare to be more silent than you'd like to be. Basically let the other person speak. This is a time for listening, not debating. And I think about that at least once a week. I always think about that phrase that's like we have two years in one mouth. Try to use that ratio when you are having a tough conversation. I think the reason this is such a valuable rule is not because you shouldn't say what you want to say and is not because you don't have a right to speak up. But it just goes directly against your brain's instinct in moments of social tension to just jump in there, defend, be loud, say your piece. When a conversation feels threatening your nervous system shifts into basically a mild version of final flight. You're not just talking like you are subconsciously trying to protect. yourself because you feel like you're kind of in danger. And that's when people end up saying, doing, communicating things in ways they don't want to. So it's not about speaking less. It's about giving yourself space to say what you actually want to say. They are very explain. They interrupt. They defend. You are going to miss what's actually being said underneath. All you're hearing is what you want to hear. You're not listening to their explanation. You're not listening to their point of view. You're not listening to their words or their motivations. You're just listening to the context and what you think applies to your feelings. There is also a concept in psychology called reactants. This is our human tendency to push back harder when we feel like someone is trying to persuade or correct us or trying to force us into something we don't want to or we don't want to do or force us into an apology, force us into a perspective. And they've done studies on this that reveal that when people do feel like they're forced to apologize or show empathy before they truly have enough information or they've said what they want to say, it just creates more tension and conflict down the line. Obviously stand up for yourself. Obviously be truthful. Turn over the stones that you want to turn over. But if you're feeling overwhelmed by what this is going to bring up, remember you can always just be silent whilst you process. Like you don't immediately have to say something in response to whatever it is they choose to say. And not to it's not a game. Obviously it's not a tip for tack competition. But I think it will probably give you an advantage in many ways at least in terms of emotional control. Part of repairing your friendship is also knowing that you don't have to accept the first apology. And then again, it's not advantageous for the future of your friendship. If you just if you just sweep things under the rug and just take whatever the first thing that comes to you is a way to placate your feelings and then you move forward. You may have to come back to this a few times. You're allowed to say, I don't accept your apology, but I still want to work it out. Or I still don't see it that way. Or I still don't know if you see things from my perspective instead of just thank you or I'm sorry to. I just think this is such like practical advice. Be silent. Don't accept the first apology if you don't want to. It takes so much vulnerability and strength to come to the table and to outwardly admit things are are damaged and things are not what they should be. It also takes a lot of courage to say, I want to fix them and you're already in this uncomfortable space like you did the hardest thing of all, which was to enter the conversation. So push on, stay in the space until you get what you need. Or you both sincerely feel better about the situation. I feel like I personally see this a lot. People have the hard chat or the confrontation and an apology is given or an excuse is given because and it's just so awkward they're like, let's just get it over with. And there's no actual depth of understanding. And I think there's nothing worse than coming out of one of these conversations. Having done the hard thing, telling everyone like, yeah, we're all good things are back to normal and then hearing later on that like they're still angry. Or there's still a problem. So like communicate, communicate, communicate, keep pushing, keep uncovering if you feel like there is things left unsaid, you know, you may as well. Like you're here now, like you've done the hard thing. I also think checking at the end with what the other person is feeling. For instance, like again, you don't want that to scrape and see like you don't want there to be them to walk away and be like, we're totally fine. And you're like, no, we're not. Or them to walk away and be like, they blamed me for everything. And you'd be like, Oh, I really see their perspective. Like really have a clear idea of what each other's point of view is and what you want to change and what they want to change. If the other person wants to go away and think about some of the things they've said, then come back to you. You need to respect that too. You might need to do that as well. Like you might feel a little bit confused. Obviously, I know I said like keep like you may have to come back or that you should keep pushing the conversation. But it's also fair to be like, no, I need more time to think about it. What I'm really saying is like, don't just get to this point and be like, cool, we've done it. We've done the hard thing. We've done the situation. We've talked. Let's move on. And like you're still hurt or they're still hurt. Like, don't again, I think what this is, what it all comes down to. The easiest situation is often not the best situation for the long journey of your friendship. So if it's not fine, if you are still struggling, if you if they clearly haven't moved on, like it's okay to come back. I also think in the days after you have a conversation, you're going to feel a little bit raw. Things may have been said that you're like, oh, like I really had to like confront some things about myself. Just take some time to breathe. Like you don't have to text them straight afterwards. You don't have to like immediately jump back into how you were before. But definitely like leave the door open. And definitely like if you said that you'd reach out and you would make plans, do it. If they asked for changes to behavior or they asked for you to tell them what you needed, tell them, show them. If you still have more thoughts, obviously tell them. Again, this is the final snag for our friendship for last. We get so far so far, so far, we jump over all the hurdles. We jump over other people's opinions. We jump over how fricking awkward it is sometimes. To just like talk about things that sting out ego. And then hear the ego comes in again and swoops in at the last moment and like prevents us from actually changing anything or decides that it's too hard. So I think when you get to that point, really be like, okay, if it keeps going this way, like am I going to be happy if it just goes back to what it was before? Like what actually needs to change because you don't want to be here again in six months time having the same conversation. Or you don't want to have had this conversation for nothing because neither of the things that either of you said actually got through. And you know what? I think 90% of the time, I think it's fine. Like I do think it does get better without needing the follow up. And most people are susceptible to change. And most people you included probably just need a 20 minute chat to clear the air. I also think for long term friendships, like eventually these conversations become funny or they become sentimental, you know, they become iconic in a weird way, like the fight that nearly ended things, the disagreement that felt significant at the time. And we made it through. And in many cases, that is a bonding thing. Like I wish we saw fighting with our friends as a bonding exercise. Even when you're arguing, even when you're disagreeing, it's still a valuable shared experience. And that's like the whole basis of friendship anyways. A herely will die on is that you don't truly know your friend until you've had a fight with them and you've gotten through it. It's like the thing that opens up like a whole new depth of like communication and shared values and resilience and like it's gonna sound corny. Like love, it makes you love your friends more. Obviously you love each other. You both collectively wanted to make it through this. And that's like really reaffirming because you don't do that for every friendship. Some people don't even do that for like relationships they've been in for years. And I think that is a sign of dedication. And I think if you guys are able to make it through this, you're gonna look back and both of you are gonna be like, wow, that person really loves me. And there's, I also think it says his precedent where a lot of friendships operate on this like, are you mad at me? Are you not mad at me? And they never actually ask and there's a lot of anxiety and tension in that. You guys won't have that again. Like you will have the freedom now having done this, having practiced this. So that like meaning that any future conflict or disagreement or miscommunication will be handled in like a similar way. And will be handled like appropriately because now you have the blueprint for like how you're gonna go about these conversations. So I think that's really like the beginnings of how you repair a friendship. Obviously I can't talk to your specific situation about like what maybe doesn't need to change in your in your friendship. But I think if you leave a conversation like this being like, this is what needs to change. You're both clear on it. And you kind of have a check in either individually or collectively like a couple months down the line. Or you can kind of do that on your own and be like, yeah, everything's good or everything's bad, but I kind of give it a chance or I want to give it another chance like you are on the right path. Like I said, obviously just speaking from personal experience and other people's experience as well because I don't know, sometimes I don't fully know if my experience is everybody's, but I think 90% of the time a friendship is not destroyed by a hard conversation. A friendship is actually strengthened by a hard conversation. And like I just said, you are doing a service to this other person. You are doing a service to the strength of your bond by saying that wasn't okay. I'm not okay. This whole situation isn't okay. And I love you enough that I want to I want to say something. And I love you enough that I want to be honest with you and you be honest with me and we're going to work through it. And I think that intention and that motivation is like the biggest indicator that the friendship that you have with this person is worth repairing, especially when it's reciprocated. So I think that's all I have time for when it comes to this episode. I will say I'm going through like kind of a situation like this at the moment and I need to take my own advice. I think half the reason why I made this episode was because I just kind of need to I don't know, I need to woman up. I need to get some strength in me and approach a situation that was like that just become very complex. And sometimes when you lay it out like this, it just makes a lot more sense. And there is a reassurance there that like it is going to be okay. And I spoke to so many of my other friends and like even some like relationship experts for this episode who were like the biggest predictor of success in a relationship in a friendship in families is how people manage conflict. And again, this sign that if you are willing to the relationship most of the time does survive. So that's the kick up the butt that I need. Hopefully it is helpful to you as well. I want to thank our researcher Lucy Davidson for helping us with this episode. If you have made it this far and you are listening on Spotify, hello. Hi, thank you for being a lawyer. Listen out and making it to the end. Leave a little emoji down below. Leave the little friendship emoji, the little dancing girl emoji. So I know you have made it this far and you are part of the elite club of like five percent of people who make it to the boring stuff at the end where I talk about how you can follow us on Instagram and how you can watch us on Netflix and how you can read transcripts of the episodes on substack. Substack especially. Like is really helpful for this episode if you want to save this guide. For the future, if you want to send it to somebody or your somebody who processes this stuff over and over again through reading, it's all going to be in the description. But I just hope it's helpful. I hope it takes the stress and anxiety out of what I'm sure is a very stressful and anxious situation. I know you can do it. And I'm wishing you luck. But until next time, be safe, be kind, be gentle with yourself. We will talk very, very soon. Joy is essential and it's also elusive. But now there's a new and exciting way to start your journey toward a more joyful existence. Joy 101. It's a new podcast hosted by me, How to Copy. Open your free iHeartRadio app search, Joy 101 and listen now. Joy 101 with Hota Kati is presented by CVS. Hey everybody, it's the Jonas Brothers. This week we're so excited to be hanging out with Mika Abdala from the hit show Off Campus. We talk about what it's been like watching the show become such a massive hit. What's next for season two and just how close the Off Campus cast really is. What's the group chat called? One of them is Off Campus Brazil. The boys have their own group chat called Dean's ****. Our conversation with Mika Abdala is out now. So check it out. Listen to Hey Jonas in the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast. I have surprises. Welcome to the Sweet 305 podcast where the group chat comes to life. What the ****? You're the only person I know that loves a yellow starburst. Lemonade. This is Sweet 305. Listen to Sweet 305 with Lille Ponds on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Wait a minute to go to she's calling the hotel while they're checked in together. And it gets worse. And evidence before he even took off and spoiler Sophia two years later, karma hits so hard. He's calling his ex-wife in tears saying about his mistress. What a mistake that was to find out what happened. Listen to the okay story time podcast on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Brenn and on the Discretsland podcast, I explore the wild lives of rock stars and unbelievable true crime stories for music history. Like the time Paul McCartney spent in a notorious prison or the bizarre crime Lady Gaga's accused of where that time blondies Debbie Harry escaped Ted Bunny. Listen to Discretsland on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.