333: How to Reignite Intimacy, Communicate Better & Fix Relationship Burnout | Dr. Morgan Cutlip

If the end goal is to make changes in your relationship, this is your best bet of starting the conversation off on the right foot. You're listening to Be Well by Kelly LeVec. In today's episode, my friend Dr. Morgan Cutlip is back. She's an author and a relationship expert. With her down to earth style, she equips couples and individuals to tackle the trickiest relationship issues, offering a fresh perspective and empowering frameworks. She is experienced and trained in translating psychological theory and research into practical, accessible, and actionable advice. Which she shares with her clients and social media followers through her books, courses, and her blog as the co-founder of MyLoveThings.com. Dr. Morgan earned her Masters in Human Development and Family Science and her doctorate in counseling psychology. She is the author of Love Your Kids Without Losing Yourself and a mother of two incredible kids, wife and married to her high school sweetheart. And just launched her latest book, A Better Share, and it's now available. Today is her pub date. Congratulations, Morgan. Thank you for being here. Dr. Morgan Cutlip, you are having a third appearance on the show. I love everything that you do and it's crazy since moving to Orange County and knowing you're only a little town away from me and you have baseball boys and the ecology center. We have so many times where we could have kind of like run into each other and see each other in real life and we're getting to finally do it. I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful to be here. Thank you. And I was just talking with my publisher today and I was like, she brought me on her podcast before I had almost any followers and you just gave me a chance and so I'm just so grateful to know you and to be a part of your podcast. Oh, well, I think everything that you say is just solid and sound and relatable and like you've lived it and you tell stories and you give resources and you do that through your new book, which I literally mowed through in 48 hours. Thank you for sending it. A better share. If you're not watching on video, it is all about the mental load and really reconnecting with your partner because everyone's life's different and we were talking before the show started. My audience knows that my role is reversed with Chris and I like want to hold on to all the mom jobs, but also I want him to like live his best life and not feel like his to-do list is never ending and you address all that in this book. And I'm just yeah, I'm so excited to dive in today. So thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I mean, you just we're pumping out the books, but it's all solid content. So this one is definitely one that resonated with me and before we were talking or before the show, we were chitchatting a little bit. We've had I've had Eve Rodzky and you mentioned her in the book. She wrote the book Fair Play and she came out with those fair play playing cards and it was my first introduction to the mental load. And you say it in the book like men don't really hear that term. They like don't really know what you're talking about, but women are like, oh yeah, can you define the mental load if people haven't tuned into that episode or is their first time hearing about what it is? Yeah, so I have this sort of 30,000 foot definition and then I have that in the weeds one. So you interrupt me at any point, but I'll just mow through both of them. So okay, the 30,000 foot definition is the mental load is the seemingly never ending running to do list. We carry around in our heads. And it has two key components. The first is it's made up of almost always invisible tasks. Yeah, this is important to understand because when it's invisible, it's hard to explain to a partner. It's hard to hand it off and it's hard to get appreciation around it. Yeah. The second is that it takes up cognitive real estate, which means it just crowds out space for other things. Peace, presence, patience, regulating your emotions and for a lot of people getting in the mood for sex. Yeah. So overall, you know, we don't talk about like this in terms of social media content, a lot of books. We don't talk about it like this, but the mental load is not a women's issue. Yeah. It's just a human issue. Everybody has a mental load. But when it comes to home and family life, when I know we'll talk about the nuance in your family, but research shows it's predominantly carried by women, which is why it becomes a problem because if it feels inequitable, it feels unfair. That's when feelings of resentment will develop. So I mean, anything that's thankless or like you don't you don't you you see someone relaxing and in your head, we you know, you have multiple tabs open. Yeah. I mean, I think about even though my roles are reversed and some of the invisible tasks like the laundry's just done, the dishes are just done, the groceries, you know, we have some auto shipment setup, but the whole foods, like the sort of weekly deliveries where we're looking in the fridge and going like, what are we out of? Like Chris is on that. Like he is, I mean, I'm so grateful for that. And and as we talked about the mental load or like some of the things that I was carrying, because for a while, I was still carrying the groceries because I'm the nutritionist, like I'm the chef. But now he knows like he'll be like, do you want to make ribs or do you want to make the cops salad or do you want to make, you know, there's some things and we're a family that repeats a lot of the same meals at the tacos, the pasta, the burgers, you name it, you know, like sheet pan dinners, but he now knows what to buy and that that is actually, it took us a while, but it takes so much off my plate because he'll just feel it and sometimes he won't ask me, which he loves nonverbal communication. So if he has anti just seen that we were out of groceries, bought a bunch of things and he'll be like, you can, I got stuff for you to make X, Y, and Z this week. And I'm like, great, sounds good to you, sounds good to me. Like I'm really an amoevo when it comes to that stuff. My mental load stuff has to do with knowing that my kids are growing out of their shoes. I feel like children grow out of their clothes and shoes. Like, EGLY, maybe. Well, my kids are 9 and 11. I'm still dealing with that. It's crazy. Yes, it's crazy. But it's like stuff like that where I know all the moms are like, "Ah-ha, you're like anticipating like the shoes getting small. They're going to need new cleats." They're, you know, like they're wearing mid-drift, and capri pants at this point. Like all of the, all of those kinds of things are, you know, the dentist appointments, the doctor's appointments, though well checks the, you know, the field trip, permission slips, and things like that, like that, that is still falling under me for the most part. Chris is taking over a little bit more with the school stuff, like the field trip or like checking in on homework and stuff. But there are no clear div being up. And you say in the beginning that it's more than just like doing the, who, who manages and carries what, which is so why I wanted to have you on the show. Because we got the cards. And I love you, Eve Rods gave you a listening. I do love that you've like brought light to this and that you wrote the book Fair Play because I think it needs to be talked about. But the div being up is hard because there's like a motion and there's like roles that we want to have or own. So, so like how, how do we begin to? Yeah, well, yes. Let me, let me do the in the weeds. Because I think it will help to just kind of like frame the conversation. I love Eve Rodsky too. I met her in person just last week. She's amazing. I say in the book like there's no more brilliant solution to the div being it up than what she offers. Yeah. But I also had a challenge with that in part because my husband travels every week for work. Yeah. So it was like even if we could divide up the cards of some weeks, I'm carrying everything. And then he jumps back in. We got to divide them up again. And so I think part of it is we have to find these sort of workarounds that work for modern family life. And a lot of times it requires a lot of flexibility. Yeah. And the other piece is that there are always new tasks being added and subtracted to your plate. And it's it's wild. I think about like a couple weeks ago, I had both kids homesick the entire week. And it's like that week, my mental load looked very different than I expected it to be. So we're just life is always sort of throwing curveballs. So we have to have, you know, the ability to talk about this stuff regularly so we can make these adjustments. Okay. So what's the mental weed? In the weeds. Okay. So I give a visual in my book. So I'm just going to describe it for listeners. So if you imagine, imagine, imagine, imagine a Venn diagram, taking you back to elementary, Venn diagram of three circles. So the majority of the tasks in the mental load come in in the form of three different domains. So the first is the physical. Traditionally, this is where men crush it. This is what men tend to think the mental load is. Is it this list of physical tasks? Yeah. Okay. I'm all the lawn. I do the dishes. You feel better? And we're like, no, we don't really feel better. They don't understand it. So it's just doing the things. The second is the cognitive or the mental. And that's just making lists or the steps involved in something. So, you know, what do I need from the grocery store or thinking about work tasks? That's usually the mental domain. So I got to emails, you know, do the podcast, do the things. Yeah. The third is the emotional. And this feels like the big differentiator between, you know, stereotypically between men and women. And this is a tricky definition. So I'll try to say it slowly. The emotional labor of home and family is like the regular and ongoing cause and effect calculations that we're making to try to maximize positive experiences of people that we love. Oh, yeah. It's like picking your kids' school and you're like constantly like, did I make the right choice? If you are in the place where you're choosing your child's school and you're making a choice for their school or the sports team that they're going to be on and you're like, who is this teacher? What is what then what will they do? How many hours will they be inside? What are their policies? Like, yeah, how far do we drive? What do we have other friends? Yeah. - Yep. - It's endless. - And you're constantly reevaluating, "Did I pick the right place?" Or the right team, or the right church, or the right. - The stakes feel high. - Yeah, they're so high. - They feel really high. And it's this constant, you're describing this constant almost future projecting around what is the effect is gonna be of this. And it can be short-term or long-term, I'll give short-term example. But the thing with the emotional labor is that it is really hard to pass off to somebody else because ultimately requires this really deep knowing of members of our family. And also, it's hard to pass off if we don't think our partner is gonna do the calculations in the same way. - On the moms are not either. - Right, in the car. - Yeah, to like, - He's not gonna think about it that way. - Exactly, you're like the same death. I remember early on with parenting stuff, like explaining something to my husband Chad. And he was like, "They'll be fine. "We turned out fine." And I was like, "You're not gonna worry about it." So that means that like, I have to carry that, right? Or we had to make adjustments. But so that's a big piece of it. The other piece is it follows you everywhere. So you can be working full-time, part-time, doesn't matter, but you can be whiplashed back into this part of the mental load. But yeah, it's this future. I was saying I'll give a short-term example. So Roy plays baseball, and he pitches, and he will not eat before games. - And so-- - And so-- - And happens if it's a two o'clock in the afternoon. - Right. - Or not enough. - Yeah. - And so, like, every, we have our games on Sundays right now, which is ridiculous. But like, every Sunday, I wake up stressed out about getting him enough food, because it's not just feeding him breakfast. It's like, okay, he doesn't eat enough. He's gonna get up on the mound if he pitches that day, which is that's his, like, that's his thing. He loves pitching. He gets up on the mound. If he doesn't eat enough, he's gonna get hungry. He's gonna pitch like crap. His coach is gonna yell at him. It's gonna affect his self-esteem. His so much of his identity is rolled up into how he performs at baseball. And so, am I prepared-- You know, like, we start-- - I'm not ready for that. - Right, but we just start going down this rabbit hole of worry, and this is the emotional side of the mental load that is so hard for people to articulate. Okay, so this is the last piece. If you imagine the intersection of these three circles, I call that the triple threat. The majority of tasks of home and family life occur in the triple threat. So, what does this mean? This means that a lot of times, when we're explaining our overwhelm to a partner, we're listing off item by item. A lot of times, the response for many, many women usually, the response is big deal. That's life. Make me a list. You're making it harder than you need to. I don't know why you're so overwhelmed. But what we need to understand is that each singular item can be unpacked to contain tasks from every single domain. So they are loaded tasks. Dinner's not just chopping and cooking. Dinner is shopping, doing inventory, looking through your pantry, thinking about who's gonna eat what? How do I balance their nutrition? How do I make sure they're not hangry? How do I make sure they're not asking for a bar at bedtime? How do I make, right? All of these other things are part of these tasks. And that's why people feel very overwhelmed and overloaded by the mental load of home and family life. - I mean, yeah. I mean, you just think about someone saying, "Oh, I need to get ready for Christmas." Or, "I need to get ready for each item." And you're like, "That's not the to-do list." The to-do list is someone needs to go to the storage unit. Then someone needs to get a ladder. Then someone needs to start shopping for each one of these children and understand also the mom who sits there and goes, "Well, if I played Santa this year, I hope no kids are in the car right now." - Oh gosh. - Yeah, if the mom is buying the presents for their kids, then they're also thinking like, when they wake up in that morning and they're opening their presents, who's gonna be jealous of who, who's gonna feel like they got less, who's gonna feel left out, who's gonna open up their presents too fast and feel like they didn't get as many presents as someone else? Do we give it to everybody and then make them fight over it? - Yes. - It's so much. And then you're not even factoring in like Black Friday, do you? - No, but like, when do we get the sale? Like, when do we, like, who are we having over? Are we hosting this year? Are we not hosting this year? Where are we going? Your family, my family. Like, yeah, you're not just like, let's get ready for Christmas. That's the to-do list. Like, this is like a 30-page, just like business plan to get ready for the holidays. And yeah, and then it kind of takes the joy out of it when you're thinking about it a lot. I tend to be a doer and that can make me more impulsive because I fit on my list. And I'm like, well, I'll just start to buy these things. Like, we were just a little bit talking about Easter, for example. Like, I wanna hold on to the mom roles. Like, I wanna play, I wanna be magical creatures. I wanna like make things special and I want my kids to feel like, you know, they have the, you know, the joy of being a child and like, that innocence and that, and I want that. And so, thinking about like Easter this year, like not having like, a bunch of sugar junk in my baskets and like, what little toy or present or thing would be good for everyone? And I wanna pass things off, but then when they're not done. And then like, I just wanna take them back real quick and get it over with so that it's done because I can't pass off a task or ask someone to help me, like Chris, like, help me buy and we talked about it. Chris, I think, Bash wants a volleyball. We're trying to play volleyball with the soccer ball. It's too heavy. It hurts our hands. Like, we're out front and I'm like, bloody it hurts. Like, can we play something else? And he's like determined. It's like his new sport. I'm like, pick another one. But I'm like, okay, I'll have Chris do that. But then I'm annoying and I'm like, did you do it? Do you have it? Can you talk about your experience? 'Cause you opened the book with a beautiful story about balloons, but like, how do we share these tasks that still carrying them? 'Cause I'm still carrying it. My new amino acid supplements come in flavorless and lemon water and they're flying off the shelves and here's why. 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They're bundling one month supply of omega-3s with the first AG1 order, plus you're gonna get their welcome kit to help you get started. So subscribe today to get one month supply of AG omega-3 with your first AG1 order. You'll also get their welcome kit with everything you need to start your daily journey. So make sure you check it out at drinkag1.com/bwell to claim this very special offer. That's ag1.com/bwell. - Yeah, well, there are a lot of places you can sort of enter around this conversation. So for me, in my own relationship, it was a slow grow. And I think that's important to say for a lot of couples out there. And it's the most sort of un-satisfying answer for me to give, 'cause I wish I could just be like, "Oh, here's the thing you do, and then you're good." But the reality is, is that making these shifts in your family life take time. And it takes tweaking. Like you have to figure out what works. So for my husband and me, I think, I've said this a few times, I'm married a guy who is not a therapist. I'm married a guy who comes, we're from Ohio. He comes from a blue collar family, his dad was a truck driver. He's in the corporate side of construction, but that's an industry, it's got a culture. And he's a dude. And so a lot of what I share, and what I talk about in the book are things we've had to navigate in our own relationship. Yes, I have the education and stuff, but the actual implementation of certain skills takes some refinement. - Yeah. - So I have a lot of practice. So I think early on, part of the struggle for us was this sort of tip for tag thing. where I would explain why I was overwhelmed, he would do all the things. it would sort of be like, I don't understand it. You gotta let something, your heart on yourself, you gotta let some things go. Or it would be, well, do you know all I have going on? Do you not think I'm doing anything? - I do, yeah. - Right. And so we had to first get through that sort of hurdle. And also our situation was kind of unique in that because he travels a lot of times, it wasn't actually handing off tasks. And so the next sort of piece was, it said to him once, like, whatever you can't give me indeed, I need awards. So he had to get really good at expressing appreciation, which I surveyed, I guess, it was 536 women around the mental load. And I interviewed men and women. And what they said they want most from their partners is number one, more initiative taking number two, more appreciation and acknowledgement. So it's like a pretty universal desire. So we had to work on that. And I think as we sort of moved through these conversations and then could just have the shared language, we were not dealing with defensiveness anymore. He started stepping into roles more that helped him really gather information about how our home and family life functions. He had to race his awareness. He had to gather data or, like, increases knowing. And then he's been able to take a ton more initiative. And so it took a little time. And then it was almost like then there was this tipping point. We're now, we can just seemingly kind of tag team in and out, which has been life changing. Like it genuinely is life changing when you get to this place. And we've developed systems for like how we kind of upload and download information to each other without getting defensive. And so it's been a slow grow, but then all of a sudden it kind of clicked in to high gear, which has been great. Well, it's what I think all couples sort of who are early young parents, you know, we have young children. And they're just trying to kind of figure out that flow that you're talking about that you and Chad have where he, I think the awareness is so critically important. I remember you telling a story on my last podcast about Chad using the Dr. Bronner's soap and the wrong place on your son and being like screaming, everyone's freaking out. But it's things like that. I mean, Chris does know a lot about our house and how it runs. But when it comes to like shoes, he's not like checking or people's feet growing and now they need new shoes. So we get to a place where it's like, OK, we need new shoes. And sometimes we like more often than not, we are making that decision together, which is like, why are we making the decision together about the Nike shoes or like who shoes or what shoes? But sometimes I'm like, if it's sports related, I feel like he needs to have a say in that. But how do you get to a place where you're downloading information back and forth? Because I think that's what so many women feel. You're like, I want you to take initiative, but they don't know how to because they don't know anything about their house. Yeah. And I want you, if not, then be like really appreciative. Yeah. So I think first you got to get to a place where you can talk about it. And so in the book, there's a lot of the book that's kind of devoted to that piece. And trying to, in many ways, take a lot of hot button issues and kind of neutralize them and depersonize them so we can kind of get past it. Because a lot of stuff with the mental load, you can start to feel a little bit like, oh, my partner doesn't care about me. When that's usual, it's not always, but usually that's not the case. So you got to be able to talk about it. One way I think it's important to frame it is to come at the conversation positioning the mental load as the shared enemy. OK. And you too as a team that have to tackle this big sort of obstacle in your relationship. So the caveat here, or just the asterisk to this, is-- and if you ever consume anything in social media, you'll see there's a lot of anger. This is a charged topic. Yeah. There are a lot of women who feel very angry about what this looks like in their home. And I understand that. So I'm not saying, when you position it this way, it's because that's totally the reality. Because sometimes you're dealing with a difficult partner. But what I am saying is that if the end goal is to make changes in your relationship, this is your best bet of starting the conversation off on the right foot. Because criticism or coming in with some hostility usually doesn't set it down a path. That's really going to get you to the end goal. So it might sound something like, as you've probably noticed, I've been a bit more overwhelmed and stressed out. Our partners usually experience us in that way. I always say, we come off as kind of scary to them. They want to avoid us because they want to maintain peace. But you may have noticed I've been really stressed out, really overwhelmed. I want to talk to you about what is going on. Because it actually has a label, which has been really enlightening to me. And the label is something called the mental load, which is basically the relentless amount of responsibilities we're dealing with as a family. As a modern family, the amount on our plates is almost not really manageable for two people. But it's creating me a significant amount of stress. And so I want to talk together about what this is, what we're managing, and how the two of us can navigate it in a new way. So we both feel better in our relationship. Because we're going to be dealing with this for a very long time for this foreseeable future. And we need to find a better way of moving forward. So we both feel connected. We're enjoying family life. And we both feel supported in the ways that matter to us. So that is one piece that can set you on a trajectory of hopefully having a productive conversation. I think the second piece-- well, there's a lot of in-between. So kind of like jumping here to a main thing. Is one of my beliefs is that as a couple, you really need to have a regular check-in point around the mental load. And it's not a sexy answer. It's kind of annoying. And people, I know we'll be like, that's going to be awkward. And I guess my feedback is get over it. Sometimes we have to do some of these things in our relationships to kind of get to a better place. But we manage life in many ways through having meetings. Your work life, you have meetings probably every day. I know I do. And it's like you're constantly touching base because you've got to make adjustments. And so in our home and family life, schedule a regular time to touch base to check in on who's handling what. That's when you can upload and download information. And it serves so many important features. One is that women usually manage the emotional labor of the relationship. Were the ones who were like, can you have a date night? Are we OK? All these types of things. And so-- You know, or is this like-- And we're all good, right? Yeah. Check it on you. And it leaves like, what's wrong? And I'm like, oh, never mind, nothing. Right. And they're like, oh, I don't want to talk about this. I got it. It shares that. Like, it shares that. And that's huge because a lot of women will sort of hold on to all of this stuff they want to talk about within the relationship until it kind of explodes because we'll have a lot of hesitation a lot of times about bringing it up. So it gives you a forum for that. Then it's a shared conversation. So you feel like we're managing our relationship together. It normalizes the idea that you talk about your relationship, which usually scares people. Like, can we talk? And they're like, that means you're breaking up with me. You said that in the book. I laughed. I was like, but then you're married. And you're like, can we talk means that they're like, I'm in trouble. I'm in trouble. We only said he says. He's like, oh, God, I'm in trouble. And I like joke. I'm like, stop it. You're not in trouble. We just need to like talk. And he's like, we always talk. We're always with each other all the time. Yes. But I also don't want every time we talk to be like me dishing out little mini mental load. Like, you don't want to just talk about like, who's driving who, where? And what logistically, like, who's buying what? Or who's getting what? Or who's procuring, you know, like, you don't want your, you don't want it to be silver. Well, I mean, that's all you talk about. Right. And you're like, we don't know how to have real conversations. They work as all we're talking about is the logistics. Who's getting shoes and who's dropping off the baseball and who's getting groceries? Yes. Well, that's the other thing is that, well, one, the can we talk piece? When you talk regularly about your relationship, that starts to fade away. Most men will feel like, I'm going to get in trouble anytime you bring up the can we talk to things. So that's a huge benefit. The other is that what you mentioned, when you don't have a forum for this, you're just sort of like trickling out demands and commands like through the week. And it's annoying to have to be the person who's sort of doling all this stuff out and also a lot gets dropped. Like, there's a lot that's lost in translation when it's like, well, I mentioned that. And you're like, I don't remember you mentioning that. There's a lot of room for miscommunication. So when you have a set time for having this conversation, it consolidates it. It frees you up to talk about interesting and fun things during the week. And it keeps you on top of all that's going on in the week, moving forward. So you can make those adjustments. And you can talk about like, this week's really full. How can we support each other in the ways that we need? So it keeps the little stuff from becoming big things and can help you be really good at staying on top of them and to load. What if you could delay the onset of age-related skin changes by targeting aging itself? That's exactly what one skin set out to do. The all-woman founding team at one skin made up of PhDs in skin regeneration, stem cell biology, immunology, and bioinformatics spent years researching how to slow down skin aging at its core. After testing over 900 peptides, they developed the OS01, the first peptide scientifically proven to interrupt cellular senescence, a key process that accelerates aging. In both lab and clinical studies, the OS01 was shown to penetrate deeper layers of skin. improving collagen production, hydration, and overall skin barrier function. Since I started using it, I've noticed a huge difference. My skin feels smoother, more hydrated, and that youthful glow is back. It's the perfect solution for busy moms like me who want to maintain their skin's health and appearance without spending too much time on it. By addressing the root cause of aging, rather than just treating the visible signs, one skin helps your skin stay younger and healthier for longer. Want to see for yourself? Use the code "VWELF" 15% off your first order at oneskin.co/bwell. That's oneskin.co/bwell. A check out for 15% off your first order. It's so good because I did. I can't remember who it was now at this point, but I had someone like three years ago who talked about having mini-twenty minute check-ins with your partner every week and always having that appointment and being like, "How do we think we did last week? How were we to each other? What can we improve? What should we do to do something fun or like fine time for us this coming week?" It was like, "Okay." It's funny because I'm long-winded and so is Chris. We'll be like 20 minutes and be like, "Okay, it's been 40 minutes. I got to go read or I got to go do my skin care routine or I got to go do the laundry." Whatever it is. It's nice because it doesn't feel when it's on the calendar. You're like, "Why are we scheduling this?" But those little check-ins make it so I don't blow up or he doesn't blow up and we don't unload like six weeks worth of garbage on each other. Exactly. I think my final push to try to convince people to do this because that will change your relationship. If you do it, you will be far better off than if you don't do it and you will prevent so many big issues from developing. But the final push is that it's just like learning a new skill and a new habit in any other part of your life. So baseball or baseball moms, my son needs to work on his batting. So what does that mean? He's going to get in the box, over and over again, he's going to practice his technique and he's going to refine his mechanics and it's going to be sort of deliberate until it's mechanical and automatic. And it's the same in our relationships. It's okay to be awkward. It's okay to be kind of mechanical in the beginning and eventually it will become automatic. So you got to push through a little bit at that first. Yeah. Well, you interviewed so many women and men and humans around the mental load and gathered a lot of like what we what we each need to like feel safe to come together to communicate, to share tasks. And I'd love for you to share some of those insights of like what men need and what women need. You called it par for both of us, which is an easy, I love acronyms for remembering things, but it was really eye-opening for me because I know I don't really always give all those three things that my hubby needs. So I want to, you know, like I want everyone, I want him to feel appreciated and all of that good stuff and I want that too. But yeah, let's break it down by gender. So I start by saying that in our relationships, everybody needs the same two things, which is to feel loved and to feel secure or safe. And the ways that we want those things expressed look very different. But ultimately that's what we're after. So for men, the par is peace, which ends up causing actually a lot of issues because in the pursuit of peace, a lot of times men will then dismiss things, minimize things, try to push away arguments by getting defensive and it ends up actually creating more issues and more arch-emfiring. We're coming back at pie. Yeah, it does not usually work out, but it does provide a layer of understanding of like, why are they so committed to just avoiding having these discussions? So they do not want our hearing, they want peace. I always joke, you know, our family functions when I'm easy breezy. When I am a bit more stressed out, it throws everything off because it disrupts the peace. So that's a big one, affection and that's all forms. So that's from words all the way up to sex. That is really for a lot of men not all, but a lot of men how they feel safe and secure and loved in their relationship. And then the last is respect. And everybody really wants respect, but in particular for men, this one becomes very, very important. And if you ever have disrespect to your partner, you will notice like how big of a deal this actually is for men, especially because so much of how men are really defined is by, you know, how they perform. And so when you disrespect them, it's almost like saying you're not doing a good job and you are not performing at the level you should be. So it hits a nerve for sure. Yeah, I feel like that resonated with me so much because I see it even in parenting. Like if our kids like say no dad or talk back and and it like triggers a response that is just not even sometimes Chris at all. He's like, you know, coach Chris like easy going like so sweet and and it is like it when I was reading your book, I was like that that's what it is. It's not that they're disres, it's not that they're disobeying or backtalking. It's actually a personal assault that he feels disrespected. Like they don't respect what he's asking them to do or saying. And so to garner that and he knows it and I do it too. Like, but not to the extent, I think because I'm not wired in the same way of like wanting respect, like wanting that respect for my kids where he'll overreact and kind of be like, that was kind of like him. I don't know why that happened. But really, I think that that's what it comes down to for him is is that he he's missing a little bit of that in his work life because his work life is the kids. And so there, but there's, you know, there's there's some layers there were where yeah, it's just he I feel like is not getting that at work because he's working at home. Yeah, that actually not to take us on a tangent, but that was actually like a 10 year argument between my husband and me was around me needing more appreciation, which is part of part of her women. Yeah. And him sort of doing the thing. And I think this is how little issues become big issues. But he would do this thing where he'd be like, well, I just, you know, maybe he'd try. So he'd say like, you're a good mom. And I'd be like, that's kind of a lame compliment. Like it's generic. It doesn't do anything for me. And thanks for the hallmark. I rejected his, his like expression of appreciation. And then he would do the thing where he'd say something like, well, it's never enough for you. You just need more than I do. So it kind of becomes sort of layered or too much, right? Which women already really struggle with that. Yeah. For the most part, I mean, men struggle with expressing their needs too, but women struggle with this messaging around, you know, being too needy or being too much or being dramatic. So it hits, it hits a nerve. And I remember one day, I just kind of, like, I think I hit my limit with this conversation. And I said to him, you know, it's you work outside the home. I mean, I'm with our kids and I work from home. So I'm in a bubble of isolation. Yeah. And I was like, you work outside the home. You get paid. That's an like an indication of your value. You get a bonus. Another indication of your value. You have monthly meetings where you get evaluated another place where you get a lot of feedback and praise. And I've sat there a six hour banquet where everybody's just like talking about how good everybody is. So you actually say you don't need that. We get a lot of it. And when you are a stay at home parent, there is really no source of feedback besides your kids and they're terrible at giving feedback. They're the worst. You mean, I hate you mom. It's never going to be your friend ever again. I'm in that state. I'm like, yes, they're never going to give you a second dessert on a Tuesday, dude. They're brutal. They're so brutal. And I had said to him, I was like, you have so much power. And I think that the person, you know, who is the one who's not home with the kids needs to recognize how much power they have to pour into the partner who is doing sort of this thankless work with no source of feedback. It becomes such an incredible piece of how you can just fuel them for that thankless type of work because it has to come from from you. Yeah. Homework. That's your homework. Yeah. I can give you appreciation, compliment, sort of formula. Yes. Yes. I want to work. Well, and that seems like that was the theme that you found with interviewing state at home parents. Can you talk a little about some of the stories that came up throughout the book with parents who stay home and what they really need. I know most of them are women and we can keep it to not looking at my family, but keep it to like what is traditional. I was thinking about it when I like when I would I don't remember which part I was in, but just I think you you mentioned like this is not every family and you're going to like go for like heteronormal relationships and I even set thought to myself like even more traditional traditional than heteronormal or heterosexual relationships is what is like even more traditional. Like a homemaker is a mom and like you know the dads out there like killing lions and like bringing back me whatever you know what I mean, but it's almost like it was so much easier back then because it was very you had your role and I had my roles and we didn't we also didn't have all these extracurricular activities and like yeah way Dennis and like all these extra things that we're doing on top of like just keep it. keeping our children alive. - Yeah, and that's why I think this conversation is really like coming to a head and why it needs to happen is that we're not prescribed these traditional roles anymore and that wouldn't even work. I mean, the amount of women who are breadwinners now is increased exponentially. And so we're having all these like different, there's just nuance, there's just so much nuance so family life. And so those sort of old kind of like, you do this, I do this, doesn't work. We have all this flexibility we need to account for. And different energy levels and different availability. And so it's so important that couples can talk about it. So in terms of what women said with their experiences, if you just look at the numbers, what they want most from their partner is more initiative. Which is actually really vague, I think. - You should know. - You should know, you should do more and take care of it without me telling you. It's very vague. I talk about in the book, let's give like a formula for initiative taking. - Okay. - Which is knowing plus action. So you can't step into initiative taking with confidence. If you don't know who, like who has preferences for what? If you don't know where things are kept. If you don't know what the schedule looks like, you can't step into initiative taking. And so, you know, it's really on both partners to make some adjustments here. But for the partner who does not take initiative as much like the non-deafault partner, usually the husband and most relationships. I challenge them to do something called the Buffet Formula, which is basically you wake up, where you go to bed every night knowing something more than when you woke up that morning. And it's just about the accumulation of knowledge. And so if I get to get really specific, I'd say every single day they should learn three things. One new thing about their partner. One new thing about each of their kids, if they have kids. And one new thing about how their home and family life functions. If you learn these three new things every single day, every week that's 21 new things. You multiply this out, you're learning new things about your home and family life very quickly, which then helps you to confidently step into taking initiative. Because that excuse of like, I just don't know, you do it better than me, we'll often get in the way. But if you know this stuff, if you take charge of getting to know these things, then you can really do the stuff without worrying that you actually don't know how things are done in the home and family. The second thing that women said they wanted was more appreciation and acknowledgement. And it goes back to the invisibility piece. It's like so much is happening in the dark, like where these ninjas taking care of things and nobody really sees it. And so that requires some shifts, I think to make more stuff visible. And so it's not living in the dark anymore. But we need to learn how to offer really meaningful appreciation. And this is actually a formula I developed for my husband. - Okay, yes. I'm one of those people where I'm like, I'm gonna tell you what to do. And it's gonna mean still a lot to me if you do it. It doesn't really detract from the actual power of what they do. - Say, I'll give you my Christmas list. - Yes, you don't have to go try to figure out what I want. - I think you know. - Yes. - So what it is is its observation. And that can be around a personal quality or something that they see you do, plus how it makes your life better. So it might be something like I see how much work you put into making the kids snacks. Thank you for doing that because I never worry that they're getting enough nutrition. I never worry that they're gonna have a meltdown 'cause they're angry. And I just love how well you take care of our family. And like that, I can live like three months on a solid compliment. And there's a lot of women out there especially who are just craving this expression that suggests that they are valued in their home and that they are seen for all that they contribute to their family life. - Oh, 100%. I mean, I just feel like we said it a million times. It's like it is thankless. And I mean, the observation and how it makes me feel, I'm gonna use that over and over again because Chris is words of affirmation. Like if you think about like, he definitely wants peace and he will avoid conflict and like the flag. He's like, I don't feel sadness. It's fine. We don't need to talk about it. You know, he's like, it's a big joke in our family. But to that closeness for him and that intimacy that it's really like, it's words first. And it is like, you don't, you're used to your whole life, especially, you know, I look at like him growing up. He was validictorian of his high school. He like, God didn't get, he, like just best of the best grades, like constantly having people tell him he does well and it makes him kind of awkward. He's like, don't say anything. I don't wanna hear it. You know, he likes to do it quietly and like, no, we did it. But like, he's getting, he's, he had prays, sort of like whole life through law school and do his big law career for like almost eight years, you know, and then now I'm like the only one giving it to him and I like, you know, makes me know that I'm probably doing like not the best job because I think we're in, you know, I'm moving really fast and I'm just like, well, that's what you do and this is what I do, but we all need that. - Yeah, and that's normal. I mean, it's not, we fall into these sort of grooves in our relationships where we just, we're going through the motions. Like, I'm not always the best at saying these things to my husband either and I think that's, you know, that's a normal part of being in a relationship where you fall into your rhythms, life gets busy, it pulls you apart and so it's good to, again, why you can have those meetings. - Yeah. - To touch base, but it's good sometimes to kind of pause and take inventory of how you're doing in these areas and yeah, lean into some of this stuff a little bit more. - Right. Well, other than the many meeting, I know in your book you have this beautiful chart of ways to kind of, I want to like, say like diffuse anger make it easy to communicate. Can you talk about some of the strategies when it comes to talking about the mental load and like making sure that we're communicating from a place not of defensiveness and you call it deficit. - The deficit default. - Yeah. - Talk a little bit about deficit default and defensiveness and how it creeps up in a relationship and how to kind of dampen it with these strategies. - Yeah, so the deficit default is essentially just like a form of defensiveness and it's when the person defaults to saying something that implies that they're like not enough, which is one of the most common ones that comes up. So maybe you say I could use a little bit more help and their first response might be something like, oh, I guess I'm just a terrible partner. I never do enough for you. I guess I'm not enough for you. And this sort of going into this place, which is really challenging because it shifts the focus of the conversation back onto that person. So the one who initiated this discussion and has this complaint or request now is like reassuring their partner. - Yeah, you kind of backpedal. You never mind, it's like. - Yeah, you're great. I love you. - You're like it's not that. - It's not that. - Because then you gotta like build them up so that they can handle the request and usually by that point, you're just like exhausted from having the conversation. And so also then you'll be more hesitant to do it in the future. So it's a really problematic pattern. It's also very common. - Really normal. - It's very, it's like so unfortunate. It's very normal, but it's really frustrating. So yeah, I give a ton of techniques because I think that we have to, we really have to be equipped as we enter these conversations 'cause it can easily shut us down and these pushing through these things are way too important to give up. So one of them I call relationship goals. And really this is really from a technique in psychology that we do with clients called motivational interviewing. And what you're trying to do is basically get them to define the end goal and then challenge them to really also define what they're gonna do to get there. So it might sound something like this. You know, okay, in an ideal situation, like what would it feel like to be in our relationship? How would we function as a couple? What would be different? What would you imagine our day to day is? Like what's it feel like to be around each other? So just pick something kind of global, something broad. And they might at first feel like, oh no, you know, you're gonna get like nothing. So you push them a little bit. Like okay, well what would we be like? Will you be like, we were when we first met, like talk to me about this. So kind of push a bit. When they define it, the follow up question is, what are you willing to do to get us to that place? Almost always, and this counts for everybody, me too, almost always in our relationship. We have this idealized vision of where we want it to be and what we want it to look like. But then we act in like complete contradiction of what will actually get us there. - Yeah. - So we don't do the things that we need to do to achieve this really awesome relationship. And so we have to call that out and then we have to really start to negotiate, okay, what are you willing to hear me when I'm upset without getting defensive? Like that will get us closer. You know, this is what I'm willing to do. And so then you start to negotiate some of those things. - So can you give me like an example for that? So for me, like with Chris, I'm like, I want more, like really good transitions. Like I come downstairs from upstairs and he is normally up a little bit early. He does lunches and snacks. And we'll get breakfast started and I'll get the boys and kind of get them into their uniforms and come around the corner and he's in the kitchen. You know, I was like putting everything in like the planet boxes moving his back. Like it's fast as he can around the kitchen. And I might step in for breakfast, but a lot of times he's like, doesn't look up. He's like, bullying the task. He's not like, hey, good morning, hug, kiss. And I'm like, I really need that is like affectionate transition. I really want that. Like, I want it to be like so lovey and joyful and he's like, we've got stuff to do. He's like full on militant. Yes. In stressful moments. And that's an, for him, transitions are stressful. So like, we're transitioning from breakfast and making lunches into the car or into the car to go to baseball. And those are all what feel like stressful to him, I think. And so then he is not in a place to be like, "Biss." Oh my gosh. He is in go mode. Yes. So I'm like, I want this. What am I, I'm like, and then I'm like, "Why aren't you being?" Yeah, it hurts. I feel personal. I'm like, "What did I do wrong?" I just woke up. What do you know? Yes. But obviously before kids, we would like sip on coffee, snuggle, hugdle, cuddle, be like, "Oh, yeah. What do you have on top?" On tap today, what do I have on tap? Because we weren't keeping humans alive. Yeah. And sending them to school. It shifts things so dramatically. So have you ever asked him what he needs in those moments? No, and that's the problem. It was always like, "Hey." Yeah, what's it? What's it with you? Why don't we do that anymore? And you know, it's, and this is the perfect example. I need to be like, what would be, what would be the best for you in that moment? And he would be like, jump in, plate the breakfast, like make sure they're handsome hair, cause the handsome hair is done. You know? Yeah, that's so cute. Yeah. But part of the right way. So as part of the wrong way. We're like, "Offices." Yeah. Well, I, okay. So this is an example that I think is often reversed. And a lot of families. Yeah. So I'll just give like a couple of like quick things that we do in our home that I think work for a lot of families. So one is you check in with Chris, like I said, ask him what do you need in these moments. And kind of be like, this seems like, this is one of those moments where it's like not a big deal, but it can easily become like an argument or like hurt. Around this particular time in our day. So what do you need? I'm going to do that, but this is what I need. So if you, let's say he wants you to jump in. Yeah. So you jump in, you get behind the counter, you start plating box and doing all the things. Yeah. And then maybe you touch him, and he stops, and you guys do like a long hug. And like a greeting. Look at each other. Like, look at each other in the eyes. Like, "Hey, actually, we're married." We're in it. Like, this is crazy. Yeah. Because that feels good. It feels good to feel good. It feels good to feel connected during those moments of just stressfulness. Yes. Morning moments. Yes. So that's one thing. Try to negotiate that. Both of you get what you need. So he can stay and go moldy. He would give that to me. Yeah. It goes simple. So kind of just develop a plan. Again, that's why I think a lot of stuff can be like sort of mechanical until it becomes automatic. So the first time you might be like, "We're going, we're doing our plan, and this is weird." And then also, I'm going to shift into feeling really nice. Yeah. So there's another thing my husband and I started implementing. That's been kind of a game changer for us. Okay. So for years, he would pride himself on being a straight shooter. Yeah. He's like, "I'm a straight shooter. I'm just going to give it to you like it is. I'm not going to sugarcoat." Yeah. And I was like, "That's awesome. I love that you do that." Yeah. Not really. So when I started, you know, I talked about this in my first book. When I started getting more in touch with what I needed and working on a starting it, I thought I could be also a straight shooter. And so I just went, "Boom. Here's what I need." And he did not receive that very well. Yeah. It's like, "Why are you mad at me?" What's going on? And I was like, "Oh, I thought I was just being really direct." So I think there's something about that tension and that kind of intensity that a lot of us usually women can embody when we are just kind of in that go mode or we have stuff we need to communicate really quickly. That can easily be translated as, "Are you mad at me?" Just like you're experiencing from Chris. Yeah. And so what my husband and I do is that when I'm in one of those places, I just frame it. So maybe we're running around on a Sunday getting ready for baseball, maybe our daughter has swim, we're doing things and I'll say, "Hey, I'm in go mode. I got to tell you some stuff. Are you ready?" Yeah. And he'll say, "Go." And so we click into another gear where I just down, I just give it and he's like, "Got it? Yes. Got it. What about that? Got it. And then we're like, "Okay, go." It's almost like a huddle for like, "Go team." Like at the end, but it has saved us from getting an argument because before he would personalize it, it was just my vibe. You know, you're fired. Yeah. And then he would make a comment like that. Right. Or he might be like, "Juice, what's going on with you?" And then I would be mad at that. And then he would be like, "Well, you don't carry around this mental load of the things that I have to do right now." So actually, I'm fired up enough to make this about you if you'd like to go there. And if I'm not in a good place, I'd be like, "Well, you can't handle my intent." You know, it could easily unravel. So by just framing those moments, so the expectations are completely clear. It's actually a game changer. I'm going to use go mode. Yeah. Use go mode. I love that. And I'm going to, I'm definitely going to use that morning transition hand on the back. I'm looking for a long hug, but I will step in and help you so that your timeline is shortened and no one's going to be late for school. Oh my goodness. So let's name everything par for men and par for women again because I think those are important. Peace for men. Peace, affection. In respect. And respect. And I didn't say the women's. Okay. So let's get into the women's. So women are the peers to be pursued. Yes. And that's what we need to talk about. Yes. And it's really big one. Yeah. And it's kind of summed up by this feeling of, I want to feel like you care about our relationship too. A lot of women feel like they are the ones really caretaking for the relationship as they've settled into a higher level of commitment. And so we feel that. And it's not like conducive to feeling very loved and very safe in our relationship. It's not that conducive to a healthy sex life. So pursue your partner, pursue knowing her, pursue having fun with her. And knowing, knowing's wild because we think when we've been with someone a long time we kind of know everything about you. But every day we have new experiences. So there's like a never ending horizon point to knowing. So we have to continue to develop that in our relationship. The second is appreciation and acknowledgement. And I gave the formula for that one. That one's huge for women, especially. And then the third is a reliable partner. And a reliable partner is somebody who is predictable in all of the best ways. So they do what they say they're going to do. You know that if you come to them, you kind of know what you're going to get. And you hope that it's like this stable kind of like this firm foundation of who can handle whatever your emotions, and handle your, I need to talk, who can handle a request for it, you know, and need to be met without things just unraveling into this sort of dark argument place. And so when you have those three things, women will feel safe, they'll feel loved, and it will make the relationship pretty magical, honestly. Yeah. Yeah. For women who kind of feel like, hey, I joke with Chris, you know, and I'm sure a lot of people have this kind of relationship where it's like, well, I asked you to marry me. And I want to be with you forever. You're my person. And then you like kind of roll into like not doing date nights very often. And you have to plan for these things. And then I'm like, let's do it. Let's do date nights. Like, yeah, sure, whatever you want to do, you tell me like I'll do whatever. And this is the hard part with us because I'm not sure if it's because, and you talk about the power of money in the book and like how the person with who's like making the money that changes the power dynamic is like whatever you want to do. And I'm like, no, will you pull out your wallet and use the credit card to do the rezo and like, yeah, you pick it. And I've been pretty clear about that like more recently, like he planned our anniversary date. And it was, it was awesome. Like he picked the restaurant and we went and we like had our babysitter and I was like, this was great. Like, you know, and it's not that hard to like, it's not do those little things. But how, yeah, like how can women get the man to pursue them a little bit more and like what, what are some great tips for that? And then can we talk about the power and money piece? Sure. I mean, I think getting pursued is tricky because it's a hard thing to ask for. And then you feel a little bit like, why am I having to convince you to pursue me? But I do think it's important that we make this known. Ideally, husbands will read the book. And those are going to be like, okay, that's not so hard. Yeah. I remember with my husband and I, we kind of went round and round where he would be like, I want a date night. And he'd be like, yeah, that sounds great. And then I would say, okay, so when are we doing that? And then it would kind of just get lost in the shuffle. Like we would just get busy. And I remember one piece of information that was helpful is one day I said something like, I feel so disconnected from you. And he's like, we've been together all day. Like how do you feel? I don't feel that. And something that I learned, and I'm not saying it's like this for every couple, but with in my relationship. I said this is exact comment. Okay. Yeah. Like your preaching to the choir. Okay. I think it's like pretty calm and I'm like, I am the dad home dad. I've been here all day. Yes. We have that. We talked about this and that and lunch. And I'm like, I just like want so much more depth. Yeah. I'm like, you have serious conversations. Yes. Like real serious ones about life and what we want. And like I have these kinds of conversations and podcasts. And I'm like, I'm just having you on the podcast like every month. You should. You actually should do that. I did. I have. I was here. He was there. It was an amazing conversation. And I was like, I love you. No. I should cry in it. It was a whole thing. side for that stuff. No, so you're just, yeah, like I had to realize that he feels connected when we're alongside and I don't feel connected unless we are like face to face, talking about the things, like really like, and it takes a minute to settle into that type of conversation. It's hard to do when there's kids running around. And so that was a realization for me that helped me realize that it's not that he doesn't want to hang out with me. It's not like he doesn't want to have a date with me. It's just that we're feeling connected in different ways. And so some things that we did as a workaround is that I would just schedule a night, be like Thursday, we have the sitter, you plan it. And that was scratch the itch for me because it was like he had to make the reservation. He had a plan what we did, like he thought about it and he'd be like, what do you want to do? I like it's on you and he would handle it. And so that felt really, really good. I think another piece that became important to talk about was that it is for play when we go out and it is for play when he pursues me. And if he wants to have like we had this whole thing a few years ago where he kind of confronted me on a date about our sex life. This is getting like a real personal, but about our sex life. And I think I said to him like listen, like I keep track of how often we have sex because I want to make sure we're doing it enough and we're like doing pretty good. So what should he all end? He goes it's an enthusiasm issue. Yeah. And so we had to really break this down because part of the issue with my enthusiasm was I didn't feel pursued outside of the bedroom. I felt mainly pursued there. Yeah. And so kind of felt a little bit like I couldn't as much step into that part of a relationship because I felt like well that's what you want, but you're not giving any. Yeah. To me outside of the release outside of the bedroom. And so we had to have this conversation. And he took a lot. I mean, that's a motivator for a lot of men. It's stereotyping, but it is true. A lot of times is that. Effections. Yeah. Effections. Take it to the end. Yeah. It's a motivator. And so you know, I'd say to him like I feel most you know connected to you. I feel most loved. I feel safest in our relationship, which is all conducive to an enthusiastic sex life. When you are putting effort into taking care of me and the relationship. 110%. Take me on a date. Make out with me like I'm a junior high kid. Yes. Or like not. I'm going to be a junior high. I'm my first kids like sophomore year of high school. So it's like actually a just for the right age there. Yeah. Like you're like like you have no plans to take it further. Yeah. That could be enough. And then yeah, you'll get all the enthusiasm you're looking for. Yeah. Yeah. But if it feels like it's just like let's go for it. And I and men are just so different. They can just like turn it on. And women we need we need the juices to give low. And we need to get excited about something like that. When you feel emotionally connected, like you've gone on a date and you've had a conversation that isn't just about the logistics of your kids. Yes. And you've talked to about the death you're looking. You know, we're talked to the depth that you're looking for as a woman. Then I'll send you like yeah, like luckily let's do this, right? I'm laughing because my husband always teases me because he travels. Yeah. Sex is his bridge back to connection. And he feels like really vulnerable. Yeah. Until that we have had sex and he comes back home. But almost every time right before I start this very deep conversation. So we'll be in bed and I'll be like, can we talk about and I'll like get into it? And he will get so irritated for a while. You'll be like, why do you always start these big conversations? It's late at night. I thought we were having sex. And look, why do you want to do this? And we finally identify like this is how you bridge back. This is my bridge back. Yeah. And it's like that for a lot of women, you know, to feel in the mood for sex. To access your desire, you have to feel connected. And for men a lot of times, they feel connected through sex. And so it feels a little like the game is rigged. Kind of for men and women, but we have to understand these things so we can take care of each other and the ways we need most. Yeah. And communication is the key to all of it and being able to ask for what you need and using all of these tools. I mean, thank you for sharing your personal life. And thank you for listening to mine and forgiving so many people and readers all the tools to tackle this. Because like I said earlier, like just divvying up tasks, you're not really ever giving the cards away if you want to hold onto them or if you don't trust that someone's going to be reliable in following through with those tasks. And they don't want to like miss the mark every partner. Man, woman, husband, wife, like you don't want to let someone down. Yeah. You want to be connected. And these conversations need to happen more and more. So I could I couldn't thank you enough for being on the show. Again, and for writing such a beautiful book. If you were to leave our listeners with a piece of advice when it comes to the mental load and really trying to share it with their partner, what advice would you give other than reading your book? Because it's really good. Thank you. Okay, this is like a this is a surface level technique you can do, but I found it to be helpful. So I'll just give that one. So people going to do a quick thing right away. So I do experiments on my husband. He's not I keep waiting for him to listen to some interview and realize this, but he hasn't. So that's on him. But I do these experiments on my husband where I like I make an adjustment. I do something differently and I see if I can shift our relationship. So I started doing the thing where I narrate certain tasks that I do. So it might be something like baseball. So I might say, hey babe, just so you know, I signed Roy up for baseball. I filled out the forums. I submitted his birth certificate. You know, it's like and in a lock of hair. And it's like all these wild things that we have to do. I paid the fees. I downloaded the app. Please do the same. But I want you to know it's all handled. So I'll say something like that. And it has done quite a few things. Number one, I've just made all of the steps of this big task, visible to Chad. He had no idea that it was that evolved to sign somebody up for a sport. Yeah. So that's the first. The second thing is always he will say, thank you so much for handling that. So I get it appreciated, which feels really, really good. And what has happened over like times me doing this is that now Chad narrates his tasks too. So a guy who said he doesn't really need appreciation is like narrating these tasks. So then I can appreciate what he does the other days like I sent in our taxes, paid the property tax bill. And I'm like, thank you. I never worry about that because I know you handle it. Thank you so much. So we have created this atmosphere and our relationship where number one, it's acceptable to share about how we add value to our hum. This becomes an argument for a lot of couples. We have completely neutralized that. We are not competing for who it has at worst. We're just regularly exchanging like this is something I did to help our family. Thank you. And then it's also created this sort of endless flow of expressions of appreciation. And relationships will always be better when we're generous with appreciation. And so it's shifted things actually in a pretty big way and it's required a very little effort. So that's that's such a good way to continue that appreciation and also like share your invisible tasks because we didn't even talk about it. So I'm going to pull you back in for five more minutes about the money piece because it's I think it like right right there you can you would be able to talk about it because obviously if someone feels like that person makes the money, I don't do anything that person does everything. My tasks are invisible. I'm not being appreciated. I mean, narrate gratitude, narrate gratitude. Yes. I'm going to start doing that and also just allows them to like you said learn three new things about what we did today like how we get that task done. You go to this website, you sign up for this. This is the app you download. Yes. And you're also all on the same page when it comes to what you're doing. Exactly. Okay. So can we talk about the money piece because it's backwards in my family, but I know for a lot of people most, well, I mean a lot of women are becoming the breadwinners, but it's whoever has the money has the power and like that feels so cringey to me. Yeah. Like how do we stop that from happening? Yes. So this is early on in the book because I feel like there's certain things you have to set the stage. And so if you just think about the society we live in, the currency we use is obviously money. Yeah. Money is equated with value and with power. Yeah. And so if we take this model and we apply it to home and family life, it really does not do us any favors because it means that the one who has who makes the most money ends up having the most power. And oftentimes will be perceived as the most valuable. And it is valuable. Like it's not to diminish that. It is valuable. But it sets up a power differential, which I've seen sort of show up that usually the women who maybe are stay at home moms or even the stay at home parent feels like they don't have a right to ask for much from their partner that they should have to do everything. And then the other piece is if they just make less, they feel like they should have to do everything. So if you just common sense, pay, you just like kind of common sense work through this, it does not fit. So for example, if I worked an hour a week, it made a million dollars. And my husband worked 60 hours a week and made 50,000 dollars. Would it make sense that he still has to do most of things at home at home? No, like it makes it doesn't fit it does not translate from our society to home and family life So I say we have to shift the currency to time and energy And so then that becomes our touch point with each other through the day It can be like a really easy place that you can touch base even when like one's coming home And you're like doing those transitions. How's your time? How's your energy? How can we support each other? Are you at like a 10 and time terms of energy at like a two Like what do you need? Let's talk about this and becomes a really easy metric to touch base on and also it It neutralizes this power differential that really can create a lot of vulnerability in our relationships and even you know some Sometimes you'll have to talk this through with your partner if they sort of cling on to that But what often happens is the person who makes the most money will feel entitled to more rest and we it's it's hard to work through But we have to kind of bust down that belief system. Yeah, I can see how that can happen when the man is Traditionally like going out Making all the money Having a long work day in an office coming home and be like Yes, I sit on the couch Played my kids a little bit maybe throw a ball around but like I don't want to do I don't want to make dinner I don't want to do the dishes don't make it a lot these my own powers. Yeah, like you're kind of starting bedtime Maybe all like come read a story or something and then I'll like scroll my phone like I can see how that would be like So traditional I think I have Well, and we've talked about this at nauseam and other episodes like mom guilt around like oh my gosh Like I have been gone podcasting You know they saw me when I was getting me makeup done at the kitchen table in the inner breakfast this morning and then Chris dropped him off at school and they will have been brought home from school and today's like not a baseball baseball sports day so they'll be home when I get home and I I Won't feel like I can chill out because I will feel like they've missed out on me and so then I will like Be with them pour into them But on days like this when I've used my mental capacity I Really don't have the energy to cook dinner and I will have one It's Chris to take that over and he's pretty good about that on podcast days now because I've talked about it Like I can't roll home from podcast days and do like three to four podcasts and then say Have you say like what should we make what are you gonna make for dinner? Like what do we have for dinner? Yeah, cuz I don't have that energy and so he like he'll do I mean like god love him Like the best like he'll step in if he knows what the task is yes But I can see how that dynamic happens and then but that's not really fair because all the mom did all day was Worked all day. Yeah, I did all the laundry and did the food and did the groceries and if she was working to added that on top of The task and everybody needs a break. Yes, and I think like a couple of things one You know, just say this for any stay-home parent who's listening stay-home parents Typically moms they work like 98 hours a week when they've done time diaries. Yeah, it's two and a half full-time jobs So they're to say like oh should be able to do it all is really unrealistic expectation Yeah, so these parents need to know that it's okay to ask for more participation But then also it's just fairer for everybody if we use time and energy because let's just like you're saying You're coming off of all of this deep conversation which is totally draining and you're entering in family life and like you're like I can't think about dinner like my brain is zapped And so it has to be fair for the partner who is kind of like the default and it has to be fair for the partner working and time and energy Gets you there much faster and much more often than just using money as the currency. Yeah, no, that makes perfect sense So walk in the door. How's your energy? How much time have you been gone or how much time have you worked and then and then readjust? You mean like how much time do you have to get? Yeah see other piece. Yeah. Yeah, so when you split tasks with Chad The only other thing I would ask is like I tend to I Remember reading in your book at the nobody could everybody can remember like five to nine things. Yeah Like I feel like I have 20 tabs open in my brain and like you talk about presence and patience and all of those things kind of going down How obviously you're having these 20-minute check ins but it's a modern world in your modern family How are you sharing your tasks or keeping track of those tasks and making them more visible other than just saying them out loud? Do you put them anywhere together like is it like you run your house like a business or is that not for you? So I think that there has to be some level flexibility because every family Works differently and has different preferences. Yeah, so a couple of things that we do is when we have a digital calendar So I'm like I'm all about the actual like practical tangible pieces like we have a shared calendar It sits out on the counter the kids can see what's going on My husband always knows what's going on he can add his work schedule to it And so that's one way we all stay kind of in the know with what's happening in our daily rhythms and weekly rhythms I Think you know another thing is that We tend to be a bit more fluid in our approach So we're not really having to do a ton of like actually like you do this and I do this and you do this Yeah, it's more like we'll have those download sessions and then we're pretty good But I will say way back when when we were re kind of calibrating who did what in our home? I was handling the finances which is laughable because I'm a creative yeah, like My husband is in business. He has a business degree. He runs a very big business like that's what he does and every month I was like I think we're gonna make it babe like he is like what are you talking about? What are you doing for retirement? I'm like? I don't know what am I supposed to do like it was horrible that I ran the finances for some reason That's how it had shook out so many years ago. We were looking at things I just handed off one big task to my husband and If you think about finances like you were talking about before we even started it on packs to include a lot of things Your investments, you know get make if you have to Mild and K five 49 yes Yeah, but the kids yeah, they keep schooling and you know if we get an insurance bill and it's way out of touch with what we think You should be paying I have to call and I'm sitting unhold and I'm doing the things and like it's a lot of stuff and so I handed that off many many years ago I literally never thought about it. Yeah, I handed off all vacation planning. He does it. Yep. It's I don't know if I can like oh that could Okay, it's awesome. It is so awesome. I don't even think about it I think he's probably getting annoyed with me or planning a big trip now and I'm just like great great great great It's like well, where do you want it? I'm like yeah, I've got it babe like I believe in you have long as you spring that gratitude Oh, yeah, I'm pulling it I'm pulling it on yeah, I don't want to do it. I see that you booked this beautiful hotel I appreciate how much this feels like how relaxed I feel and how much my family's gonna love it like as long as you bring that Oh, yeah, he's gonna love it. I'll do it all day all day, but my boy pulled by the big My point is this is that I handed off some big things Yeah, and then all like the little day to day we can navigate with fluidity Yeah, and so I just putting that out there because it there's not one right way. Yeah, and I think that modern families do need a little bit of Flexibility I say the other piece that we take in mind is like what do you like to do and what are you good at? Yeah, and like for example, I am not I am a fast mover. I could it could be perceived as lazy sometimes It's not I'm just like constantly doing a lot of things I move very fast He's very slow methodical and thorough so things like breaking down boxes. I will never break down a box It's not gonna happen. I don't have time for that. Yeah, I will chuck it over our balcony He doesn't get offended. We have an agreement and he will sit out there with a with a knife on like Saturday or whatever And he'll like cut it up into little snowflake pieces like he's good at it. Yeah, he enjoys it It's probably how you kind of like zones and addresses. Yeah, and so think about that as you're navigating these things like What are you really good at? What do you like to do and are there big things I can hand off and the little stuff? We can be more fluid around Love it. There's so much unpack in this book. It's juicy, but it's but it I think just I'd acknowledge in ways to Appreciate one another to divvy up the tasks But you can't do any of that without being able to have a conversation around it And I think that is like probably my biggest takeaway or all the tools to to do that to make sure that we you know No one feels like they're at a deficit or that they need to be defensive and that we can Kind of like go to go mode. Yeah, are you ready for go mode? I'm ready for go mode so many good things Morgan Thank you for being here again. Congratulations on your new book a better share New York Times bestseller. Let's go Today's a PubMed day baby. Thank you. So happy for you. Thank you so much for having me where can people fall along? Where can I get the book where can they share all your good amazing tips? So the book is out so you can get it anywhere you get books mostly online retailers I'm not sure what stores it's in yet, but Barnes and Noble Target Amazon audible. I I narrated it And you can follow me on Instagram dr morgan cutlet. It's a dr and my website is the same dr morgan cutlet.com Thank you Thank you for tuning in to this episode of the B. Well by Kelly LeVec podcast If you enjoyed the show, please consider leaving a review in your favorite podcast app and subscribing on Apple podcasts Spotify or YouTube. We're also excited to share that full length video episodes are now on YouTube and Spotify So you can watch along as you listen the best way to support me and the show is by sharing it with your friends and family, your recommendations make all the difference. This is a wellness loud production produced by Drake Peterson, Shantilly, Toazone, and Cast Faldin. The video is recorded by Luke Rodriguez and edited by Jessie Trout. Sound mixing is by Mike Fry. See you next time!