How to raise $10+ million for your startup with Dominic Woolrych

All righty, welcome to the Ryan Tantro. My guest today is Dominic Woolrich. Dom is the co-founder of LawPath, Australia's number one legal platform that has helped over 300,000 small businesses across Australia. His mission is to transform and digitize the legal industry to make it accessible to all small businesses. Dom is also the adjunct professor at the University of Technology and a board member with the Australian Legal Technology Association. In 2022, Dom became the finalist at Small Biz Week Young Heroes Awards as the Young Innovator category and was voted the Top 20 University of Technology Sydney alumni. As a young entrepreneur, Dom first cut his teeth as a commercial lawyer at Minster Ilsen, Australia's largest law firm, where he realized that only a select handful of businesses could afford top legal advice. This experience and his work representing vulnerable people through legal aid and taking time off to travel solo around the U.K. was needed to disrupt and revolutionize the legal industry. Together with his co-founder, he witnessed how other industries moved their services online and applied this principle to the legal sector. With the automation of tasks and improved efficiencies, he bridged the gap and made gaining legal advice accessible to everyone, especially small businesses. Dom's vision is to continue to build his digital platform and help small businesses globally to access legal support at a fraction of the traditional system's time, cost, and complexity. And today, LawPath is recognized as one of the top 10 legal startups in Australia and the top 50 globally. It has also been recognized as one of the Australian Financial Review's top 50 fastest growing businesses in Australia, while also having been nominated for a slew of awards, including the 2022 AFR Boss Most Innovative Companies and a finalist in the Australian Financial Review's Best Places to Work in 2022. So with all that said, it brings me great pleasure to welcome Dom to the studio. Wow, what an intro, Ryan. It sounds pretty good when you line them all up. I love that. Yeah, thanks, Dom. And it's amazing when you, I guess, focus on, you know, one thing for so long. I mean, LawPath's been going for about seven years now, hasn't it? Yeah, yeah. I think you would call LawPath, we're still a startup, but we're a pretty old startup. So it took us quite a bit of time to find product market fit. And once we'd kind of found that product market fit in about 2018, that's when the business really started to grow. But I think it's always really hard. You don't want to pump too much money or raise too much funding when you haven't found the right fit to start with. Otherwise, you're kind of just putting money into something and putting your time into something that's not really going to work. So yeah, seven years in, but feel like we're just kind of kicking things off, which is good. Yeah, it's amazing. And that's definitely something I want to jump into a bit later on the product market fit. But just firstly, I guess you have a background in law and entrepreneurship. How did the idea of LawPath first come about? Yeah, so I am, as you mentioned, I started my career as a lawyer at one of the top tier firms here in Australia. And I really love that. I kind of went through university, did a law degree, got a clerkship, which is what everyone tries to do when they do a law degree here in Australia, and then went to one of these firms. And I really enjoyed my time there. I kind of could have stayed there, and I think had a really strong career. But whilst I was there, I kind of realized, one, that there was a big opportunity being missed in the legal industry. My dad ran a small business, I had a lot of friends running small businesses, and I realized that they couldn't access the services that I was actually able to access. And so that's kind of what I was actually providing. The services I was providing was really only accessible to the Telstra's and the big companies. The other thing was, whilst I was there, I started my own side hustle. So at night times, I was working on a business, which was an online education business that actually trained Uber drivers. And I grew that business to be the biggest trainer of Uber drivers in Australia and New Zealand and Singapore. And I loved that experience. And I loved the fast growing nature of running a business, kind of scrambling around trying to get things to work, testing new ideas, trying to provide something that was never been done before. And so I kind of thought, how do I combine these two things that I really love, you know, starting fast growing businesses and the law? And it was just really good timing, because about that time was when the legal industry was really starting to go through quite a big change. We were looking to America a lot, and their legal tech industry is about 10 years ahead of Australia. There were some people I knew that were thinking of starting businesses. And so it kind of all the all the things aligned, and LawPath was started. So as you mentioned, my co founder, Tom, he was probably not as much of a fiend for the legal industry that I was, but he understood that there was a big gap. And he had started a lot of businesses before and felt that pain. And so with myself and Tom, and one of our other investors, Nick, we all got together and started. And it was actually a tough few years. Because we knew we wanted to change the legal industry, but we really didn't know how. And it's hard when you leave a big corporate job where you know that if you probably sat in your chair for the next 15 years, you'd make partner and you'd make lots of money. And it wasn't a very common path to kind of get into one of these large law firms and then suddenly say, actually, this is not what I want to do. So that was a big move for me. But, you know, in hindsight, looking back now, it definitely paid off, which I'm really happy about. Yeah, fantastic. And sometimes we need to be willing to make those changes, or uncomfortable decisions. I think Jeff Bezos, you know, he left his job on Wall Street, he was making around 200k. And he always carried a regret minimalization framework. So he'll say like, okay, it what will bring me the least regrets when I look back. And again, like you said, it's very tough when things are comfortable to say, like, I'm going to leave this and go and pioneer this legal industry. But yeah, it sounds like you had entrepreneurship in you and law as well from a young, young age, which is fantastic. But I'm just curious, how did you find the first place? How did you find the first few years doing that? Because obviously, you pioneered LawPath. It's a new category in Australia with your co founder, Tom, and you had some other people like Nick, like you mentioned, how did you find that whole process? Obviously, in the first few years, you know, there's nothing here. That's like LawPath, you're kind of going in, there's an education journey for the customers. Like, how was that journey for you both personally and professionally? Yeah, it was difficult. I think we were very excited about the opportunity. We just didn't know how to get there. You know, we knew there was something there. So the first probably year was really spent experimenting and trying to find a simple product that solved the need for a small business. We decided to choose small businesses first, because even though everyone needs legal help, we found that small businesses were really underrepresented. And even though they're a business, people expected them to have money to pay for access to legal, but they just didn't. And so there was a really big pain point there. So we wanted to focus on them first. And we wanted to try and solve a few of the pain points. One of the main ones was just connecting with a lawyer. So our very first iteration of LawPath was just a very simple WordPress website that said, free 30-minute call with a lawyer. And in the background, we sat on LinkedIn, trawling LinkedIn, trying to find lawyers. And we would reach out to them and say, hey, will you take a free 30-minute call from a client in return for paying a small fee to us? And then that client could turn into a bigger customer or client of yours. And so it was very like a simple referral. Kind of an agreement, which wasn't that unusual, right? That's done in a lot of industries. It just wasn't done very well in the legal industry at that point. And so we started with that and we kind of got a few wins. But as always, you kind of get a few wins under your belt and you start generating a bit of revenue or some customers, but then you hit a ceiling and you're like, oh, this just isn't going to scale. And we knew we wanted to build a global business. So we knew we needed something that was very scalable. And I think through a bit of a process of elimination, we found that some products work, some products didn't work. You get very good at lawyers shouting at you on the phone saying, you know, leave me alone. But after a while, we found that self-serve legal services or products were really popular with small businesses. And so a lot of process of elimination. I think it's so important that you do think about one, why you left what you were doing. You know, if you have made that call, I jumped from traditional legal. Tom had jumped from traditional marketing. You know, we kept having to think back, why had we done that jump? And as you said, you know, when you were there in your comfortable job, you knew there was a big opportunity and you knew you had to take a big risk. I think the other thing was that we could clearly see that we were helping people and we were, there were people coming back to us and there were things that were, you know, we could see there was a real consumer demand there. So it was pushing through those first few products got us to a point where we could go out and market the business to investors. Because again, one of the early decisions we'd made here at Lawpath was we wanted to be a venture-backed business because we wanted to grow quickly. The reason we wanted to grow quickly was we felt that here in Australia, at least, there was only going to be one or two winners in this space, online legal platforms. We knew in the accounting space, there was only one or two winners there. And we knew that they were very similar industries. So we needed to get it, needed to get out ahead of the game and build something quickly, which in the end, it's still taken seven years. We're only just kind of cracking the surface of our platform, but we're at least a market leader now and we can kind of continue pushing that. Yeah, fantastic. And I guess what was that moment that you knew that Lawpath had genuine product market fit and was being validated by customers? Because I know the product's been through quite a few reiterations over time. Yeah, I think, I don't know if there was like an exact moment where it was like, aha, we have product market fit, but there's definitely been a whole bunch of aha moments for different products. And so I think, you know, for example, people wanted to be connected to lawyers no matter what the legal problem was and as we started to talk to customers more and find out what they were actually hiring lawyers for they were just going to lawyers because they didn't know how to do it themselves and so there was a real aha moment when we thought well why don't we just tell people how to do it themselves you know instead of sending them off to see a lawyer we'll just give them instructions on how to do it and so we did that and we saw that people would come back we'd have repeat customers and they would tell their friends about it and so i think we had one of those product market fit light bulb moments in each product that we have some of them are stronger than others i think what i love about our business is that we can combine products together and they we definitely get a you know a one plus one equals more than two type of scenario we can combine our kind of we start about six percent of all companies in australia through the platform if we can combine that with our document automation or we can combine that with our legal services it's a really it's really great value and so we can see people going between them so yeah i don't know if there was like a product my i don't know if there ever is right like even in previous businesses that i've run there was never like like a moment where i was like oh we have something here but i definitely think that like maybe in hindsight you can look back and say oh that period there when we introduced that type of product at that type of pricing in this type of channel it worked really well but um it seems to be a bit of an iteration and i think also one of the things i've realized is that at the beginning usually you can make some big decisions that move the needle say 30 40 percent but once you get an established business up and running you're never really making those huge decisions it's just too risky to to make a decision that could either increase or decrease you know either users or revenue by that much so what you're doing is making all these small compounding improvements and so we know if we can improve the product by one percent a day you multiply that over three hundred and sixty five and you suddenly have those huge numbers or we can if we can improve the conversion rates at just one percent a day so that's what i like really focusing on now um maybe not at the beginning you had to make those big plays because you need to make the big risky ones but now i just love the small iterations that improve things yeah i think james clear says something like that if you do one percent a day that's like 37 x yeah and it's like wow because again everyone's going for 10 a year or whatever but it's just the you know the small improvements over time and small daily disciplines build up yeah that's um that james clear book atomic habits is one of my favorite books i um have that graph on my um on my computer of like the compounding nature so anything that compounds just grows so quickly i really like it yeah that's fantastic i guess what role has pricing played you mentioned it briefly i know for law path uh obviously you know got a few different products you got the essentials and you got the legal advice plan and you've got two ends of the spectrum because uh if you're charging too little you attract a certain clientele especially on legal advice which you might not necessarily want to service but then on the higher end you know that can kind of alienate your key clientele which is small businesses so i guess how do you balance out i guess the product economics and scaling with i guess the accessibility and servicing you know your personal mission which is to help small businesses yeah it's a very very difficult balance so we started with this mission that we want to make law accessible to everyone and if you kind of clearly look at that mission you would probably try and make everything as cheap as possible but you're exactly right you know if you make it too cheap then from a business standpoint you don't get the right type of customers that you want to attract so we made the decision really early on that what we wanted to do was start low and increase as we got more and more product market fit and that works well as a venture-backed business because you know our investors can cover any shortfall that we need in the early days but if you're a just a you know what i like to call a traditional business or a normal business which is just you need to be you know you need to make a profit on everything you sell sometimes it's very difficult to get that pricing right so we decided to start low and then slowly grow so for us our strategy is actually two price increases a year moving forward as we add in new features and as we grow and we've done a lot of work around price elasticity so you know if we launch a product or we increase the product's price too much and we see the conversion rates drop then we bring it back down again we've also introduced a lot of we use a lot of sales and things like that to to like lever out our pricing so sometimes our pricing might be actually set a little higher and then we discount and that's where we get a lot of our sales but at the end of the day a lot of it comes down to the perceived value that a that a small business is getting so sometimes i actually like to speak to customers that have dealt with lawyers before because they understand how expensive the legal industry is but when we're dealing with customers that have never experienced the legal industry before we need to be conscious that they know the value that they're getting and they know that there is behind it a lot of software and smarts and things going on so i think for us we will continue to push the pricing to a point where it makes sense for us from an economic side of things but also is achievable and realistic for a small business and we're you know we've we've all run small businesses before we kind of get it that when you're starting it's really really difficult and the last thing you want to be doing is you want to be doing it for a small business and you want to be spending money on legal services right that's it's not what you want to be spending money on when we would prefer for you to be spending money on marketing and advertising and getting your products and services out there so the way that we've decided or the way that we try and combat that is one a subscription model so we try and spread the cost out over a full year and the second is we try and uh provide services on like a monthly or an annual payment basis so that you can spread those costs out because one of the the horrible things i see is that when a small business comes to us and they say i've just been charged ten thousand dollars by a lawyer to set up my business and it happens all the time and you know that ten thousand dollars that could be the whole budget that they have so we try and spread it out so that it's um they come in they pay for a lower price tier they get access to the basic services and then as their business grows they can move up into the tiers depending on what they need definitely no that's fantastic and again yeah i can attest to a lot of people doing that i guess through promotions you kind of test the elasticity and like i think in march uh the price we increased it by i think 30 32 percent on legal advice and there was like no drop off on the city of signups yeah and that's what every sas business wants it's like wow where is the ceiling you know because some people would say law paths offering such a great product is too cheap like they can't understand and that's what you're saying is you bring those customers who have experience they've gone to competitors spent 20k or they're locked into long-term contracts and that's ideal in the sense that they know uh they're not going to be able to do it in a short amount of time so i have a feel of what lawyers and legal services cost whereas an average business if they don't know i guess what it's like to interact with other businesses even one dollar is too much because they don't ascribe value to that yeah i think it's so difficult right because you're trying to attract all these different users from all these different backgrounds they may have spent a lot of money on legal services and maybe the very first time they're doing it but you want to keep that funnel at the top as big as possible and so you know we're a freemium model so you can come in and you can access very limited functions and you can access functionality on our platform for free and we're really really big on staying that way and keeping our model freemium because what we believe is that often when you're starting a business or running a business you you do a lot of research first you you kind of go you want to find out about things you might not be ready to actually purchase anything for a couple of weeks or a couple of months and so we want to keep the platform as open as possible and we want to make sure that you can come in experience things and then when you're ready you can upgrade and it kind of goes to this philosophy that we've always worked with which is to keep the platform as open as possible and we want to make sure that you can come in experience things and then when you're ready you can upgrade and it kind of goes to this philosophy that we've always worked with while off which is we we feel that law is this information monopoly where where lawyers charge you by the minute to get information you know and we think that it should be flipped it should be we provide as much information as possible for free and then you decide as a small business or as an entrepreneur when you're ready to actually pay i think that's a much better way of doing it and lawyers aren't that happy about it but i think it's just a fair way yeah absolutely fantastic so i guess how do you view the competition and what role does it play in guiding yourself and law path yeah so we have lots of competitors out there we have competitors that are traditional law firms we have competitors which i class as new law so these are law firms that are really good online advertising we compete with accounting firms we compete with basic document management e-signature i think that the way i've always thought about One, at the early stages, I kind of saw them as competitors and I like the competitive nature of it. Recently, I've been more keen on adopting more of a kind of a complimentary rather than competitive look at it. So recently, what we've done is we've reached out to a lot of our competitors and said, hey, let's just work together. You know, like we're not exactly competing on exactly the same clients, but we're in the same space. So let's, you know, you can have these clients, I'll have these clients and we can kind of share it around. I think what's really important, though, if you want to stay cutting edge and at the head of the industry, you need to think, one, you can't be thinking like the industry, so you need to be thinking outside the box. So to be honest, I look a lot more at insure tech and accounting tech platforms and competitors, even though they're not competitors. I think what's really important, though, is that if you're competing with us for the clients, they're doing things in the space that are probably a little bit further ahead of what legal tech is doing. So I keep a really close eye on them. I think the other thing is you kind of have to run your own race because if you're looking around too much, you can get caught up in the competition. get a little bit distracted by competitors um what i love doing though is just touching base with people in the industry and finding out what people are building because you sometimes you know you don't want to build exactly what they're building but it gives you a bit of inspiration on what maybe you should be building fantastic and taking the best as well from each um you know each of the sectors because again i know what you've said before is that law path isn't here to like in the law profession which is maybe what you thought coming in but we're actually here to help lawyers and take a lot of that manual work out of their workload, do all the AI, all that kind of stuff, and bring them in as advisors so they can do higher leverage work for their clients. And as a result, they can charge more for it as well. Yeah, exactly. I really like this concept of the way that you can change an industry is by looking outside the industry and then bringing in IP or bringing in people that have done things differently. And that's what we see in all these industries, right? It's usually not the 40-year accountant or the 50-year taxi driver that comes in and changes an industry, right? It's the person who has never worked as a taxi driver or never worked as an accountant. They come in and they go, why are you doing it like this? There's a better way of doing it and this is how we should do it. And so I think it's really important to think like that. Yeah, as you mentioned, you know, we're not here to kind of take the jobs away from lawyers. If anything, we're not here to take the jobs away from lawyers. If anything, what I want to do is change the way that lawyers work. I mean, I used to be a lawyer. I still am a practicing lawyer. I think that there's a real place for lawyers in the legal industry, but I think that we can change how they work and make it better for them. And a really good example of that is when I was a lawyer, a first and second year lawyer, you know, my jobs were photocopying, proofreading, drafting basic documents. Now, I didn't mind doing that because I knew that it was teaching. And it was going to mean I was a better lawyer down the track. But at the same time, now knowing what I know running LawPath, there's software that can do a lot of that stuff. And so let's say there's this concept called unbundling of legal services. And so instead of having a lawyer do everything from end to end, let's unbundle it and say, well, this 20% can be done by software. This 20% can be done by paralegal. This 20% can be done by the user. And this last 20% can be done by the lawyer. And we're not here to take the jobs away from lawyers. And what that means is that one, it's going to make it cheaper for the clients. But two, it means the lawyer is actually doing the work that they want to do. They're doing that last bit where it's like this work can only be done by a lawyer and everything else can be done by supporting software. And I think most people when they're doing their jobs, they think I went to university, I went to TAFE and to learn a specific skill. I don't want to be doing all that stuff around that. I don't want to be doing the admin and the bookkeeping and all that thing. I just want to be doing the skill that I really want to be doing. And I think that's a really good thing. I really love that. That's why I'm in this career. And so I think what LawPath can do is take a lot of the commoditized legal tasks that typically were done by a lawyer, but don't need to be and do them through our platform and then connect in lawyers when it's really important. I love that concept again. And it can mix those people who are involved, do their highest priority activities. So again, the lawyers can do that. And then the customers can fill in because like as well, what we see is that customers like to be involved in the process of doing their legals. Not all of them, but a lot of them do. And they want to have some basic frameworks and understanding and having visibility is a buy-in to the process and to the software. And that's fantastic for LawPath. So I just want to understand like, what's the ultimate goal for LawPath? If we look at say the next five to 10 years, where do you see the company heading and what's your ultimate mission for LawPath and vision even? Yeah. So we started to make the law accessible for everyone. We decided to focus on small businesses first because they're the ones we felt really needed help. But you know, my ultimate goal, or kind of vision for LawPath is that we can build a platform that helps everyone access legal services, no matter what type of legal services. That might be personal. It might be small business. It might be enterprise. What I've seen happen over the last couple of years, and I think this will be a big focus on us into what we look like in five years time is small businesses often bundle certain things together. So legal, accounting, compliance, that all gets bundled together. Payments, e-commerce, that type of stuff gets bundled together. So I see LawPath really integrating with other platforms or building our own services. It just helps the small business take care of all that backend compliance work. I know it sounds boring. Like even I run the business and I can say like that part of running a business is boring, but it's also vital for the health of the business. And you usually, by law, you have to do it. And so I think, you know, we really want to say to small businesses, you get back to focus on law. You get back to focus on law. You get back to focusing on the, on what you want to do and LawPath can do the rest. So I think for us expanding our product range out above law is going to be one of the things. I think moving into different client segments. So, you know, specifically medium sized and larger businesses. And then the other thing, and this is something we've started to explore already is geographies. So, you know, we said from day one, we want to be a global business, but up until about six weeks ago, we were only an international business. And I think we wanted to prove that we could go international. So we launched in the US about six weeks ago. And that's been really exciting because we've built all this fantastic software down here in Australia. And now we can go and test it in a market that's 17 times bigger. So we've had a really good launch and we've already kind of got a pretty good growing presence over there and we're kind of hitting the targets that we want to. So I think that if we can prove out that we can do America, it doesn't mean we can go into a lot of other countries as well. So yeah, there's a lot to work on. Yeah. Well, we've been through it all. So let me kind of take you through the journey. So we've actually done four capital raises all up, two big ones and then two smaller ones early on. So the very first capital raise we ever did was when we were just about four or five people and we called it a friends and family round. But they're not really friends or family, they're investors. I think that's always really important to remember. Like, you know, you most likely shouldn't get your friends or your family to invest in your business. Because bringing an investor on board is a big decision and you're going to have to work with that person for a really long time. And you're also going to have to make some pretty tough decisions with that person. And the last thing you want to be doing is making those decisions over a family dinner or at the pub with your friends. So I always found it funny that people called it the friends and family round because it should definitely not be friends and family. But really early on, we were looking for an angel investor or an individual investor that could come on board and really just, I think our very first capital raise was when we were just about four or five people. And the first capital raise was $200,000. And we raised that funding just to prove out that we had a model. And we've been really lucky in that that angel investor has actually been able to follow on in every round. But typically, they may just be in the first few rounds and then you move on. So we actually started in a incubator, which is one of these accelerators slash incubators. They've become quite popular. But when we started, there was just one in Sydney, it was called Polonizer. And Polonizer, every year would bring on, I think, four or five businesses, and they would give you some office space, they would give you some development help, and they would take a small percentage in the business. So we actually started there, and they would do these pitch nights. And we'd go along to the pitch nights, we'd have like a new product that we just kind of whipped up. And we would do a very quick pitch, and they would bring along the kind of friends of Polonizer. And that's how we got our very first investor. So Brooke was our very first investor, he put some money in right at the beginning as an angel. And so we found that once we had raised that funding, we had enough to hire our first developer. And that was obviously always the best, biggest struggle. I mean, I see it a lot now with founders and co-founders coming through, through the different entrepreneurial networks. I think you often have a fantastic idea, you know, you can execute, you've got a lot of confidence in what you're doing, but you don't have the technical expertise to actually do it. And so it's really, really difficult, because, as we all know, especially right now, technical talent is so expensive, that you end up having to pay a lot of money to developers. So I think, you know, bringing them on as a founder is always a good option, or what we've seen a lot of is offshoring the technical work, which has its pros and cons. Sometimes you can have, I've heard stories of it going really well, and I've heard horror stories as well. So, but it seems to be one of the good options. So we raised our angel around, we got going, we got up to a point. And I think once you go down the VC path, it's quite difficult to jump off the VC path. And VC, I mean, venture capital, you know, you're raising funds, you need to fit the mold of what a venture capital business will do. And, you know, sometimes that can be quite unrealistic. You know, they always, I remember speaking to some early venture capitals that would say, triple, triple, double, double, you know, you have to triple your business first two years, and then double the next two years. And that's what we want to see to keep investing in you. And, yeah, that might work for the, you know, the Uber of the world, right? But, but every business is different. Every business is in a different industry. Sometimes you can't control how quickly things move. Sometimes there's external things that just mean you can't triple in one year. And so I think there's a lot of pressure put on startups to go down that traditional VC kind of path. We were lucky in that we don't have any kind of large traditional VCs on our cap table, on our shareholder register. We have some strategic investors, some family offices, some smaller VCs. And so they didn't have those strict kind of triple, triple, double, double rules. And it meant that, as we mentioned before, Law Path is seven years old now. We didn't triple, triple, double, double. I can tell you that. So we were kind of doubling every year. We've been pretty consistent on that since we started. But what it meant that we went to the next round, we said, look, with this $200,000, we want to achieve this. And if we hit that, we want to go out and raise some more capital. And a lot of that second round that we did was about bringing on the right people. And we called it seed. And we actually brought on a strategic at that point, which was a company called LexisNexis. And they helped us. They're a big player in the industry. But looking for investors and finding investors was really challenging. There was a lot of startups out there looking for the same type of money. There were a lot of people pitching and it was hard to differentiate your product from a different product. So I did a lot of networking specifically in my industry because I knew that I had a bit of a competitive advantage. And I knew that I had a bit of a competitive advantage. And I knew that I had a bit of a competitive advantage in the legal industry is in that lawyers wanted to understand what we were building and what we were doing and whether we were taking their jobs or not. And so that helped bring on the first few investors who had connections to the legal industry. I think then we've done some larger rounds and we brought on some bigger people. And what I found is that once you bring on some investors, typically they'll introduce you to more investors. And that's the kind of the network. The cold introductions are really difficult. It's really important if you can. I know it's so hard. But it's really important if you can. I know it's so hard. I know it's so hard. I know it's so hard. But to try and do warm introductions. So find someone in your network that knows the person you're going after. One thing that really was a bit of a light bulb moment for me around finding investors for our business was that all investment funds have a mandate. And that mandate is usually quite narrow. It might be, look, we have a $50 million fund and we can only do check sizes between $1 million and $2 million. And we are only in these verticals. And I think what a lot of early stage founders and entrepreneurs do is they scattergun their approach to capital raising. And they say, I'm just going to find every investor and email them and see if they get back to me. Or I'm going to go to every pitch event and pitch them. And the reality is there that you're actually pitching people that even if they loved your business, can't invest because their fund has a mandate. Their fund says, well, we're only Series A and above. So if you're a seed founder, there's no point going and pitching a Series A fund because they could, like, fall off their chair with your idea, but they just literally cannot do it. They've taken the money from LPs for a different reason. So I've always tried to be quite targeted with my capital raising. So what I'll do is I'll form an Excel spreadsheet of about 50 targets, and I will make sure that I'm six months, nine months, 12 months, even before the capital raise, starting to reach out to them and have coffees. And it is a lot of time, but it is worth building the relationship because I don't think we've ever kind of gone into a capital raise and met a new investor and they've invested. It's always been people that we had a pre-existing relationship with, and they kind of come from everywhere, right? Like it doesn't need to be the air trees and the blackbirds and those kinds of guys. Like there are a lot of people investing in, in, in startups these days. And so it's just about expanding that network. One thing that I have done from a really early point, which has worked really well is I have what I call my future investors update. And it's like a bit of a joke, name, but essentially when I meet someone and they could be an investor, I put them on this update that I do every quarter. And the, it's just a short one page that says like, this is how we're doing, this is how we're growing. These are the things we've achieved. And it's a really good way of just keeping in touch with people that might want to invest in your business down the track. It's not that intrusive. It doesn't mean you have to go and do a half an hour coffee with them. And they, you know, they're talking to so many businesses, right? They don't have time to keep, you know, checking in and making sure they're up to date. So that's worked really well. So I'm happy for them. And I'll see you in the next one. Yeah, that's fantastic. And just to attest to Lopar, if you have the Gonski family on the board, LegalZoom is a massive player in the US and it's just interesting, you know, you've gone into, I guess the US and you're not competing directly, but it's great to have these big investors on board. And I love your strategy as well. I've heard you speak about that. If you're not actively looking to raise capital, even if you aren't, you probably will need it in the next few years. So you can start planting those seeds now with those newsletters. So that's fantastic. I guess, how can startups deal with board? How can startups deal with board members and corporate governance effectively? Because they both have different interests. How can we create like synergistic, harmonious partnerships between both sides? Yeah. Stakeholder management, you know, it becomes a really, it's a big part of my role now. You know, I used to love, and I still get to do a lot of product, but I get to do it far less now because the importance, you know, I say as a CEO, my job is to hire the right people and not run out of money. Like that's the two things that I have to do and everything else can kind of go into those two things. So stakeholder management is really key, especially for us at the moment where we're in a kind of a growth phase where we're using, where we have investors subsidizing our growth. So a couple of things that have really helped, especially as we've got bigger. I mean, Lawpath now has almost 40 shareholders on our cap tables. So that's quite a lot as a private company, the limit's 50. So we're getting up there. And that means that in the old days, anyway, that was 40 separate conversations to make sure that everyone knew what we were doing. I think a really, really important thing, there's two really important things that I've learned that I will do moving forward in any businesses that I run is, is one, set up a regular update to all of your stakeholders that has a regular cadence. That's essentially a template that you send out every month or every quarter to update people. And it's proactive. So I always find that the worst thing is an investor having to reach out to you to say, hey, where are we at with this? Or what's your revenue? So we started a monthly update. I use this awesome software that I'm happy to plug called Visible VC. And what it does is it sets up these templates, it pulls in your data from Xero or whatever system you're using, and it actually kind of pre-populates the reports for me. And so it's really useful. It doesn't take too much time. And it means I can send the same standardized report every month. And I think that's super important. So I've worked with a lot of early stage businesses, and it's very, very tempting to send different updates every month on all the good things that are happening. So one month, it might be like, partnerships are really good. And the next month, it might be revenues really good. And I think you've just got to have the discipline to say, this is the standard template we're going to use to update all of our stakeholders every month. And if sales go down, I'm still putting it in there. There's no partnerships that month. It says no partnerships. But investors really like to see a pattern. That's their job, right? Their job is to recognize patterns. And so I think if you can set up a template where you say the same thing to the investors every month, they get used to that. And the added bonus, and this is what I found, is they get used to the cadence, and you don't get any more questions during the month because they know that they're getting their update on the 15th of the month. So that's the first thing. Really, really useful. So over-communicate in a templatized kind of cadence. Second thing is set up a board. So you're never too small to have a board. You know, we think, oh, boards are just for the BHPs of the world. No, like if you've got your own startup, small business, even if you're just getting off the ground, the best thing that you can do is surround yourself with people that can help. And one of the really good ways to do that is to find a group of advisors that can call you out on things. So I don't think you can ever start a board too early. And you don't have to pay a board. You know, yeah, the boards of public companies and larger businesses, get paid. But smaller companies can have boards, and people will often just volunteer their time. And I think there's a couple of ways you can do that. If you reach out to someone in your industry that's been really successful, usually they want to give back to the industry, and they want to actually support the young and upcoming companies coming through. Even if you're slightly competitive, to be honest, they'll probably just want to be on the board to keep an eye on you, because you could be something that they could plug into their business. So never underestimate just reaching out to someone that's quite experienced and saying, hey, like, I'm also building a construction management business, and I'm just getting started, and I really was looking to have an advisory board, and we want to meet once a quarter. Chances are they're going to say yes. So you can bring them on. The other really great thing to bring on is either a financial or a technical board member. So especially if that's not your area. So we brought on some financial board members early that could help us with the financial side of things. And you meet with them and you kind of just run ideas past each other. And it doesn't need to be that formal or kind of strict at the beginning. Typically, as the entrepreneur, you're the one making the final decision. But we have found that our board has led to so many things. Our board has led to a lot of new investors. Our investors have joined the board. That's also great. Getting an investor close to your business and getting them to feel really involved in the business, a good way of Now you want to make sure that they're in it for the right reasons. but that's a really good way to get the buy-in. Partnerships have come from our board. Just, you know, I couldn't stress enough that, like, having a network around you is so important, especially when times are tough. And if you've got that network in place before times are tough, it means that they can really help you through. So, yeah, from a government standpoint, I think those are the two really important things. The other really important things to do, you know, and this is not me plugging LawPath, but, you know, get a good lawyer who you can get a bit of a relationship with once you get to a certain size and find a good accountant who you can build a bit of a relationship with. Because those are two core services that your business is going to need moving forward. And it's always good to just have that in place before you either, you know, suddenly hit product market fit and the hockey stick goes wild. Or in the case of when COVID hit, you know, a lot of startups were doing really well, had to back off and they needed those expertise in the business to work with them. Yeah, fantastic. And I guess the board as well, you might see it as, you know, mentors or you might see it as advisors. And like you said, having them from different sectors can be very helpful. So that's fantastic. Now, I guess in terms of capital raising, what's your take on how you're thinking about it with recent market conditions? And I guess have these, you know, conditions, have they affected your plans or approach in the next, say, 12 to 18 months? Lots of thinking about that at the moment. I will just add one more thing I just suddenly thought of around boards. So often, if you can't pay a board member, if you, if they won't do it for free, which sometimes happens, it's okay to offer a small amount of equity. What I would do in that case is just be very cautious around what they get for that equity. And you'll want to put it on some kind of vesting arrangement. So for example, they earn that equity over a certain amount of time. So if they're going to be able to pay for it, they're going to be able to pay for it. So if they're going to be able to pay for it, a board member for two years, you want to say, well, that equity gets lent, like earned over two years. Really important because it is great going and finding an advisor and finding a group of mentors, but you want them to stay and you want them to be incentivized to stay. Typically, we see that advisors will take maybe 0.02% to 0.05% of a business. The reason I say that is I get questions about that all the time. And so I think it's really important to kind of know, like if an way too much right like your basic esop pool for your entire team should be about 10 of your business so anyway right back back to your question around capital raising how we're thinking about it so yeah current markets are really really volatile for startups so public markets are off you know 20 30 even more for tech stocks what we're seeing is that that's flowing down into the private markets we're seeing that multiples are off a lot so often private tech companies are valued on a multiple of their arr which is their recurring revenue last year we saw crazy multiples we saw like 50 times 60 times multiples um whereas before covid it was sitting around 10 times as about standard for a fast-growing subscription business now averages drop down to 6.5 times so and and to draw a comparison there the average at the height last year was 16 times so we've seen like a big drop and what that has meant is a lot of these startups or raising funds last year have had to really think about how they're going to use their funds and how they're going to deploy them so you know a lot of the companies that were raising you know 20 50 million dollar plus rounds last year it was just like spend at all costs just double just do what you need to and we saw the price of developers go through the roof you saw even the price of marketing and advertising go through the roof because of these guys with all these this cash but about march this year everything really changed so coming out of the u.s we saw you know the threat of recession what that meant was a lot of the um the funders really started to say stop spending so a lot of these funds um especially the vc funds they've still got a lot of cash this their funds are full you know they've raised they raised more money in 2022 than they have in any other year but they're not deploying it and the reason they're not deploying it is that they're saving it for their existing portfolio companies because if you are i won't name any names but if you're not deploying it you're not deploying it but if you've just raised a hundred million dollars last year and you've been spending it four or five million dollars a month um you're going to run out of money pretty quickly and you're going to need a top up and um no one even the investors don't want you to do down rounds because it looks bad for them so they're they're saying well we better allocate some funds just in case that person needs to extend their runway for 12 months so what we're seeing in the market right now is is a pause it seems to have eased probably the last six weeks like whereas june july was like pretty crazy it was um it was like no one do anything just like just just pause whereas we started to see some more deals getting done for law path personally how we're thinking about this so we raised 7.5 million in september last year um we're uh pretty cost effective so we are not making a profit every year every month but we are not that far off so we can kind of swing things as we need to but what we've done is we were going to raise some funds around around about now um and i think we could go out to the market with our results and and raise funds but they probably just wouldn't be at the the great terms that we want and so we've decided to push our capital raise back um another six months at least probably early 2023 and we're just going to wait and see what the market does so i think by that time hopefully we'll know if we're going into a big recession and it looks like you know funding's off the table for for startups um for the next two years or people have kind of got over the fear of what was happening this year the funds have said we need to deploy these big this big amount of money we need to put it into into businesses so um and a lot of the conversations i've been having with with vcs and investors recently has kind of been about that they they've been saying look we're just going to wait and see what happens we'll invest if we can um find a really good deal or we can we find a business that we really really love but you're going to get the best terms if you if you wait it out and a lot of startups and ceos that i've been speaking to recently have been saying you know where's last year it was you know moving to a profitability like slowing the growth and moving to profitability was not something you would do it was all about just grow grow grow now i've spoken to a lot of ceos that are just pulling the levers and saying you know what we're going to slow the growth down we're going to go to profitability gives us a bit of breathing room we can then do what we need to and i think somewhere in the between there is is good you know manage manage the money to a point where you are close to profitability so you can pull that lever if you need to but also growing at a rate where you have the momentum so if you do want to raise further funds you can go out and say hey look at us we're growing fantastic and i guess it's also good to have prudent capital management for like law path and just businesses in general because you're not forced to do an emergency capital raising at you know terrible terms and you know i mean look at the buy now pay later sector and vote bank and there's a lot of collapse and stuff like that so cash flows and forecasting is very important i guess just lastly on that topic does it change the way that you see growth over the next 12 to 18 months and like managing different you know i guess key variables like profitability cash flows etc yeah it has so i think um i think the expectations around growth have also changed from all of our stakeholders and our investors i think that if you were kind of 100 plus growth last year that was seen as pretty standard you know and it was like let's let's maintain that kind of growth rate now i'm seeing startups and speaking to ceos where 50 40 even 30 is satisfactory as long as as you mentioned you're kind of thinking about what does our 24 month runway look like and are we going into a little bit of like what i would call hyper growth hibernation for the next year we're still growing you know 30 still fast growing business but we're also making sure that we're being capital efficient so a lot of companies i've been speaking to recently have been using this metric which is called a burn multiple and so what they're doing is they're saying we want to essentially grow at the same amount as we're going to grow at the same amount as we're spending so if you have a one-to-one burn multiple um if you're a subscription business this is so you you've got arr and you're recurring revenue that seems to be the level that people are quite comfortable with so that shows you're not overspending you're not spending on things that aren't sustainable you're growing at a sustainable rate but still using funds from investors so yeah it's definitely changed the way we think about things um i think we're quite lucky here at lawpathian that we can pull levers quite quickly we're a market leader we're a marketing driven business uh if we wanted to we could go to the bank and just tomorrow spend it all on online marketing we would obviously bring in hundreds of thousands of users but we'd run out of money in one day but the good thing about that and what i really love about being an smb online business is that we can pull those levers really quickly and drive it by the amount that we spend so if we want to lower the growth we just lower the spend whereas i know that sounds pretty simple but you know other businesses especially enterprise-led or sales-led is there's often a long lead-up to the sales it might be a 12-month sales cycle so they need to be thinking about what they're doing in 12 months time whereas it's great for us to be thinking ahead but in terms of like actually what do we do to move the needle tomorrow we can make a decision tomorrow that changes how we sell tomorrow at four o'clock in the afternoon which which i love about lawpath it means we can be really reactive to our customers and reactive to the market and so if small businesses if we do go into a recession and small businesses are we can change really quickly to adapt what we need to do yeah that's fantastic and that's something that i spoke about with tom your co-founder on i guess growth hacking and being able to pull those levers and then having such an intimate understanding and knowledge of the business so that you can pull those levers quickly to meet the changing needs of the market or the business so that's fantastic now i just wanted to finish and close off the interview with three last questions on i guess team culture and people um i guess low path you know you've grown a team i'm not sure the head count exactly is probably around 70 could be more he's more than that um i guess so how have you even gone about growing and attracting a high performance team because you know growing a team firstly just growing a team's no easy feat and then secondly on top of that having a high performance team like you mentioned firstly just on on tech team and devs you know people have said law path is the envy of a lot of businesses you've got a team of 10 or so and you know they can do so much output and such high quality work but then obviously in sales marketing customer experience and all that you got all the the departments firing so i guess how have you gone about growing and attracting that high performance team yeah so like people are the most important part of any business it doesn't matter if you're a service business or a product business you know at the end of the day it's the people in the business that are going to drive the growth and you know we're a team of yeah 72 people now um i think first 20 was you know the business is small enough that everyone has a lot of buy-in everyone kind of knows why they're doing it they're in the trenches together but once you get over about that 50 mark things change and you have to run a business differently and so we've gone through that transition over the last year i'm really happy with where where it's kind of ended or where it's got to i'm not going to say ended um which is you know we've managed to attract people to the business that still have that buy-in like you know one of my things that i always do when i'm interviewing people is i i always think i want them to be their own mini entrepreneur like i think that's really important like even as we get big i want everyone to think um of this business as their own little business or an area of their business as their own little business because when you think like that you're willing to push it to 110 percent um you're willing to try new things to make it better i think a big part of that is you know we we make everyone in law path an owner after a year everyone gets shares in law path that's always been really important to tom and i because we want you to feel like you're invested and there's a lot of buy-in i think from a cultural perspective it's really important that you have a leadership team that are all kind of close and aligned and you give them a lot of autonomy to attract the people that you want so you know what i've found is ceo is running the business is i can't be in in every interview when we're hiring i can't be in every meeting where we're making decisions what i need to do and this has actually been personally a big kind of um struggle for me is like is let go and kind of trust people and give people the autonomy and the authority to make the decisions themselves and i think if you hire the right managers and team leaders then they're obviously going to hire the right people for their team right and it kind of flows down and that's how you get a scalable organization so we've been working a lot recently on one getting the right people in the right roles and then two the communication around the business so um you know as you mentioned we spoke we spoke last week about how effective our tech team is and how we always get requests from other companies to be like how how can we make your tech team so good i think it's so important that we share that around and people know that and we communicate all of that what's going on because the more information people have the better decisions they're going to make and then hopefully when we get to the end of the year we're going to get to the end of the year and then hopefully and i don't know people can give me feedback on this but hopefully i give people enough autonomy to then go away and make those decisions themselves and i think people feel like they're empowered to do things that give them confidence that means they're going to really like the work that they're doing so from from a kind of business organization structure that's how we've tried to set it up and hopefully that can scale up over a couple hundred people and then just in terms of culture i think it's so important that everyone likes to come to work there's been a lot of work that's been done over the last couple of years it's been so much talk over the last couple of years around like should you be in person should you be at home what's covert done how's it going to work you know i'm actually um a real fan of not being fully remote i think there's something very important about coming into the office and working with people like i come in every day i love talking to people and working with people and i think that's really important especially as a fast-growing young business like ours we need to make those quick decisions and make those decisions on the fly that's the stuff that moves the company forward and i often find it's best to do that in person now i know that's kind of controversial there's a lot of companies out there that want to do it all remote but for us and where lawpath is and the culture i want to build i think it's important that we are sitting together in the lunchroom and things like that so still a work in progress i think culture is probably one of those things that you take for granted at the beginning and then you see that it can be lost and then it's so hard to get it back that you really need to work hard on it but if you can get it right then you're going to get it right and then you're going to get it right and then everything else kind of falls falls in behind it so very important and something i think you just got to keep working on and it seems to i'm really going on on this question but i i've been i always think about it a lot but i think that if you have a culture set for a team of 10 it's gonna it unfortunately won't work for a team of 30 or 70 or 100 you need to be constantly adapting the culture so it fits with the business yeah fantastic and that's something that elon musk said is that you know what are you optimizing for who's going to be doing what you're going to be doing what you're going to be doing what you're going to be doing what you're going to be doing what you're going to be doing that's my interpretation of it if you want to do fully remote nothing wrong with that but again you know tesla will probably go on to build like the best products over the next 10 years and he needs people in offices he needs people who are there so again you need to ask yourself constantly what are your goals and do you fit the organization and if not you know there's other organizations you can be a part of as well so that's uh that's great to hear now only law path was nominated as a finalist um one of the top four i think in australian financial reviews best places to work so that's fantastic and you touched a bit upon culture i guess on the front end of the flip side what have been some challenges along the way i guess potentially as also you've you've scaled and you've grown there's a lot of different forces going on you know in labor markets and countries and you know just different things going on out there has that impacted the company internally and also externally yeah it definitely has yeah we so we're a finalist hopefully we can win either next year or the year after but big realization i think for me and the leadership team here at law path was we realized that not everyone wants to work like us or you know not everyone wants to work like me or tom or whoever it is and you need to build a culture that works for everyone and so you need to build a culture that and a work environment that maximizes everybody's kind of capabilities not just the people that want to come in every day or not just the people that want to do lots of meetings and or not just the people that don't want to do lots of meetings so you've kind of got to find this balance of trying to make it work for everyone and that can be difficult right because you try and make it work for everyone you're not going to make it perfect and you're not going to make it perfect and you're not going to make it perfect for that one person you make it perfect for that one person it doesn't work for everyone so i think trying to figure that out especially over the last three years where people have been forced to work at home the tech market has gone crazy i mean we saw average tech salaries in 2021 go up about 30 percent so that means that you know the beginning of the year you are paying developers x by the end of the year you're paying them you know close to you know almost double so that has changed a lot of things um so we went and we've um worked with an offshore model for a few of our teams so we've got um we're testing some um software developers overseas which seems to be working really well but then again that totally changes the culture as well right because then they are they're not in the office they have to be online so how do you bring them in how do you loop them in so that they're getting the same experience as an in-office employee um so yeah so much to kind of like figure out and i really love actually talking about it and and learning what's best but i think what works three years ago now doesn't work and what worked in a company with 20 people now doesn't work and so you kind of always got to be thinking how do you maximize it and yeah as elon says you know like what we're optimizing for now is probably not what we're going to be optimizing for in two years time and so the actual the culture and the initiatives and things that we do are probably going to be really different you just got to adapt yeah fantastic and i guess law path has a number of initiatives running in the company as well like impact planning group and you're going to go around ask people what they want and i think that's a big part of the it as well is asking the employees from just different like segments or different teams like what do you want to see and kind of bringing that through that's something that you know the company's recently launched as a mentorship program which you know i personally think is fantastic because again you know it's another way you can add to someone's career progression or development um and you know that's something that they really value as well yeah i mean it sounds simple right but like ask your team what they want it's like so basic but ask them what you want so like do surveys with them you know we we do initiatives like ceo town halls so we got a lot of feedback that sometimes they weren't team members weren't comfortable asking their direct manager certain questions or they felt like they couldn't come up to me or tom and and ask us a question and that's just not the culture we want to create you know we want to create a culture where everyone can ask questions if they need to so ceo town halls once a month you can ask any question you want anonymously and we try and answer it i really love because the stuff that comes up there that i just would never think about um and as you mentioned one other thing that constantly comes up and i think this is across all businesses and i think this is across businesses is career progression you know i'm very conscious that a lot of the people here at lawpath they won't be at lawpath forever but it's so important that lawpath can help them with their career progression and you know it might not be saying in two years time you're going to be a manager at lawpath it might you might say actually you know what i want to be at this other company in two years time and so working on that career progression and making sure that they can achieve everything they need to at lawpath to get there is so important because i think if you stick your head in the sand and say um Oh, you know, everyone will be at law party five years time it's just unrealistic right so it's better if we can say let's build career progression frameworks at law path that help everyone progress their career whether that be at law path or going somewhere else and i think that goes back to that comment you spoke about with high performance teams is that you're only ever going to get high performance if they want to be here and if they don't want to be here then you should help them move to where they want to be and if they're here and they're not a high performer you should work for them to be a high performer or then say hey maybe this isn't right for you but one of the things i'm really focusing on at law path over the next 12 months is getting the company used to people coming and going you know and not in a bad way not like you know people need to be used to people leaving but just you know you're going to get the best out of someone if they really want to be here and if their skill sets match and if it doesn't it's no point keeping them here let them go and do what they want to do or move them on so yeah lots of stuff to think about from a cultural and organizational perspective but the good thing is that like you in a growing company like law path you can try new things and the great thing is most of our team members are pretty open to trying new things as well so like the mentorship program you know we've just started that i'm super excited for that and that's a test hopefully like fingers crossed it goes well but it's always good we can test it and we can see how it goes yeah fantastic no there's so much to it and just the last question as well i mean especially with talent markets recently there's been a kind of you know changed a lot where you've got a bit of a talent shortage not necessarily around say money but there's just a lack of talent out there people come in for interviews people applying the quality of those candidates coming into interviews i guess twofold question here firstly i guess how do you see this uh how do you plan to attract and retain talent in the organization but also another topic um you know that you speak about is how can we bring in and also activate intellectual property within the business yeah well one big problem two big things to kind of talk about yeah like the the you're right just the the type of uh we've noticed this even even in our candidates and things like that they're just finding the right candidates really difficult like we don't even get to the money conversation it's just finding the right candidate and i think look so much has happened you've got candidates that don't want to work full-time you've got um people that want to work um have been allowed now during covert to go into different industries so i think a couple of reasons what we're doing we're working employer brand is really important now uh so you know people want to work for a company that they know about that they've got friends out that they've can they've know i've got all these additional things on top of salary you know salary is just a hygiene factor right people just want to know that there's a salary there but it's everything else that attracts people so building out that at the company is really important for us um then cultivating the i'll call them talent but cultivating the team the existing team so how can we tap into other things that they do and i think i'm always blown away when someone will come into our company and say hey i want to go into our sales team or our customer care team and i'll find that they've actually got this other passion or this other skill set that i didn't even know about we didn't even hire for but then they can use that so i think you know part of the mentoring program part of like the program of working on career development is actually starting to try and identify other things that people can do and then move around because you know in a business like ours where we are roughly 50 product led which means that most of our customers will upgrade our software without being spoken to but there's another part that is sales led the sales is pretty intense right you're speaking to a lot of customers every day you know you're not going to do that forever you're um but what i love is that we've got a lot of people that join our customer care team or join our sales team that they move into other roles in lawpath and they're actually better at those other roles because they've just spent six months talking to customers and like it's the best thing you can do in selling a product it's like talk to people so i think cultivating and finding and identifying the different talents in the business and then moving them into other roles is really important um and so these new initiatives that we've we're trying to launch are going to be all about like trying to identify those those traits yeah fantastic no that's really really good and again it's not an easy feat you know human resources moving people around but no matter what happens to people whether you're in the company you're out of the company or you get deployed around it's to your best service and there's always a blessing in disguise yeah so yeah thanks so much for coming on the show dom i'm fascinated you know i had a lot of questions here on different topics that you love to talk about and um yeah i got so much out of the interview so yeah thanks again for coming on the show not a problem ryan they were very good questions and again i loved your intro one of the best i've heard so that was great i really enjoyed speaking to you and um as always you know if anyone listening ever wants to chat with me or learn more about lawpath feel free to reach out always open to having a chat perfect thank you dom not a problem thanks ryan