530: How to Prepare for Conflict, with Amy Gallo

You're about to go into a tough conversation. What are the best things to do long before you open your mouth? In this episode, how to prepare yourself for conflict? This is Coaching for Leaders, Episode 530. Produced by Innovate Learning, Maximizing Human Potential. Greetings to you from Orange County, California. This is Coaching for Leaders, and I'm your host, Dave Stahoviak. Leaders aren't born, they're made. And this weekly show helps you discover leadership wisdom through insightful conversations. A conversation that happens for a lot of leaders regularly is conversations that are centered around conflict. It is the nature of being a human being, of course. It is also the nature of leadership that often we find ourselves in situations where we are navigating conflict, not only for ourselves, but also helping others to do that effectively. Today, I'm so glad to welcome one of the leading experts in conflict so that we can all get better at preparing for some of the most difficult conversations. I'm so pleased to introduce to you today Amy Gallo. She is an expert in conflict, communication, and workplace dynamics. She combines the latest management research with practical advice to deliver evidence-based ideas on how to improve relationships and excel at work. She is the author of the HBR Guide to Dealing with Conflict, a how-to guide book about handling conflict professionally and productively. In her role as a contributing editor at Harvard Business Review, Amy writes frequently about a range of topics with a focus on interpersonal dynamics, communicating ideas, leading and influencing people, and building your career. She is also co-host of HBR's Women at Work Podcast, which is in its sixth season. Amy, I'm so glad to welcome you to the show. Thank you so much for having me, Dave. I have listened to Women at Work several times. What a wonderful, wonderful podcast. Thank you to you and your colleagues for the important work you're doing for women, especially in all of us, at getting better at these things. It's just such a wonderful resource for us. Thank you so much for saying that I always say it's my favorite project to work on. It really is. You know how fun podcasting is and to be able to speak about topics that really matter to you and to the people you really care about is such a treat. Indeed. This is a topic that is one that, it matters to all of us, but it's one that I think a lot of times we don't want to wait into because it is difficult for so many of us. This conflict and specifically preparing for a tough conversation and as I was researching your work, I stumbled across a story from early in your career where you ran into a situation of conflict very early on and quite suddenly, didn't you? Yeah. It's a story that I tend to relive often and it's, I don't, I'm not sure it's any less painful than when it actually happened. So earlier in my career, I worked for a management consulting firm and I had a client who I truthfully just didn't see eye to eye with on many things and at the time I think, you know, well, we just didn't get along and I had a way of coping with her which was that any time she sent me an email, I would forward it to one of my colleagues within my consulting firm. So one of my co-workers and I would say everything I wish I could say to this client to my co-worker and then I would actually open up a new email reply to my client in a polite professional way. And you know, one time she sent me an email, I forwarded it to my colleague. I pretty sure I used some inappropriate words and describing how I wanted to respond to that email and as soon as I press send, I realized what I had done which is that I had replied and my client now had that not-so-poly email in her inbox and I'm squirming sitting here talking about it still and it's so many years later. But it was just a lesson in, you know, if I had just been direct, if I had just addressed the things that we disagreed about instead of trying to vent off the side or use back channels to discuss my problems and if I had just been direct with her, it just would have been gone so much better. Indeed. What happened after you sent the email? Well, I went over to my boss's desk and I remember walking over and saying okay, like I'm going to be fired and, you know, which would be a perfectly rational response. I had just sent a really unpleasant email to an important client and he actually said go apologize, which to me was far worse. I was like could you just fire me and then I could walk away from this whole thing, please. So he said go apologize. She actually, her office was, this was in Manhattan, and her office was about 40 blocks north of our office. So I got in a cab, I stopped at a bodega, got a huge bouquet of flowers and to this woman's credit, I walked into her office with this absurd bouquet, I'm sure I was just red in the face and she said why didn't you tell me? And it was just such a generous response of, you know, we could have talked about this, like you didn't have to do this. And we actually had a stronger relationship going forward. I thought she was going to request, I mean, remove from the project, which again would have been a very reasonable thing to request. But we worked together for another year after that and really had a strong relationship. Wow. What a generous response. And what a great lead into this conversation too of the opportunity that a lot of us miss and you did in this situation, and I have many times too, to prepare for a situation where we're going to enter into conflict. And we're going to talk about some of the logistics we're doing that and you've researched this extensively and have some wonderful advice for us. But even before we get into that, I guess I'm sort of curious, like what is it that holds us back from preparing? Because we all sort of know that we should prepare and think strategically about having conversations like this. And yet we often, either we don't at all or we avoid it, what is it that stops us? Well, I think there's two things going on. Number one, we're denying that it's conflict, right? So we're denying it. It just feels like we're interacting with other humans and that's messy and I do that all day long. I know how to do that on the fly, right? As I said about this situation with my client all those years ago, I just was like, we don't get along. I wasn't seeing that we were actually having material conflicts or disagreements about the work and how it should proceed. And if we could work through those, instead of attributing it to, you know, we have clashing personalities, instead of, you know, if I saw it as material differences about how we should approach the work, I might have taken it a little more seriously. So I think there's one that we're denying that there's actually a conflict that's happening. And number two is that we don't treat disagreement, difficult conversations as a skill. I mean, we, I don't know about you, but no one's ever sat me down and said, here's how you have an argument, right? Or there was never a class in middle school, high school college about, here's how you get to, you know, problem solved with someone. And so we don't treat it as important as it really is because conflict is an normal, inevitable part of interacting with other humans. And we do do it all the time, but we don't treat it as a skill, and especially as a business skill that's so essential to being influential, to getting our way, to pushing projects forward, all of the things we want to do at work. Yeah, indeed, well, in the spirit of us getting better at the skill, let's dive in on some of the key things that we can do in preparing for a conversation where we are going to likely engage in conflict. And one of the places that you invite us to start with is mindset. And you write in the guide, be honest with yourself about how hard the conversation might be, but also put as constructive a frame as possible on it. We might tell yourself, we may have to talk about difficult things, but we'll work through them together because we have always respected each other. That just strikes me as something that seems so wise and yet we tend not to do and take that time to think that way. Yeah, well, and partly we don't see it as constructive or we don't see the constructive aspects of the conversation because we're so dreading it, right? So many of us view conflict as a threat to our identity, a threat to our resources, a threat to our career. And when we feel threatened, we go into what, you know, many emotional intelligence experts call a Magdala hijack, where we're, you know, sort of driven to that fighter flight response and not making rational, thoughtful decisions. So it makes sense that we would say, oh God, I have to have this disagreement. I don't want to discuss this. You know, that we had, that's a normal response. And yet it's not just a rough response that helps us be productive and collaborative in the moment. So really, you want to think about what do I stand to learn here? Really adopting, you know, what Carol Dweck calls the growth mindset, right? Yeah. What can I learn here? What don't I know? What assumptions have I made? assumptions as the other person made and really think of it. as a sort of collaborative problem-solving exercise rather than let's do get out fight. I know you coach a lot of leaders on helping them through situations where there is conflict, and when you begin working with someone and they are running into that classic, you know, a Magdala hijack situation where, you know, the emotions there, what is it that is helpful at the start to begin to frame the mindset more productively like you just described. Yeah, so I think really examining the story you're telling yourself about the conflict. So you likely have a narrative, right, of, you know, Amy's been passive-aggressive for the last three years that's her only way of operating with me, or our team never gets our way on these project plans. We're always, you know, starved for resources when we should get more. You know, you probably have a story you're telling yourself, and really when I work with leaders, I say, okay, what's an alternative explanation for this conflict that you're in? And it doesn't have to be true, right? It doesn't, the alternative story or narrative doesn't have to be factual. It's just by telling yourself there's a different way of seeing this, you will unhook yourself from your version of your story. So you can actually start to see different perspectives, you can hopefully put yourself in the other person's shoes or the other team's shoes, and you can just start to see this situation from all sides so that you're not going in bracing yourself, which a lot of people do, or go in, you know, armed with my five points, I must shove down their throat, right? You go in equipped for a collaborative, constructive conversation that's a give and take. You know, one of the other things I often do with my coaching clients is really try to help them visualize, don't picture yourself with you on one side of the table and you're a colleague on the other, and you're just, you know, delivering points here, there, here, there, right? You're instead, think about you and your colleague on the same side of the table and engage in a problem solving exercise. So there's a third entity in the room, which is the conflict, and that's what you really want to focus on is how do we together resolve this conflict, so that we can continue to collaborate work well together, etc. One of the things you mentioned in the book is framing the conflict, like you just described as a shared goal, and I love that language because this is a we, how do we work together to resolve this versus a adversarial, I need to win, you need to lose some version of that, really does change the mindset then of how you approach the conversation and the generosity, like, like the example from the client you worked with years ago of how we respond and how we handle that, isn't it? Yeah, absolutely, and that's, you know, I will admit, even now, you know, having done this research, having written this book, I do lots of talks about conflict. When I am first entering a conflict, my immediate thought is how do I win? How can I make sure I am right and they are wrong, and I have to sort of remind myself, okay, step back, right, that's not really the goal here, and I really think it's important to think through what is your goal, and you might have multiple goals, right, I want this relationship to stay intact, I want my team to get the resources they need, I want to look good to my boss, I want to get out of this conversation as quickly as possible, you might have multiple goals going on, but think about which of those goals overlap, as you say, like, which shared goal do you have with the other person, because there's almost always a shared goal, even if it's at a very high level, so maybe it's just that you both want what's best for the company, and that starting there from something you have in common is a great way to establish a rapport with the other person, even if you've been at odds, it says, oh, we actually agree on something, and that's the lead, the precedent so that we can agree on other things. Yeah, it seems like such a healthy way to purchase, and one of the things I love that you invite us to do in your work is tactically to think about taking your counterparts perspective on this as well, but also to stop short of assuming you know everything that they're thinking, right, that's hard for a lot of, I mean, it's easy when it's someone else, right, but when we're in the middle of it, and I appreciate you saying, like, you struggle with this too, still, we're in the middle of it, it's so hard to see the other perspective. What is it that helps people to, like, interrupt that emotional that I need to win, kind of, got response we all have, and maybe to look at it from the other person's perspective, a little better. Yeah, I mean, even just having a reminder to yourself that this, your perspective is one perspective, and if you, if you have trouble putting yourself in the other person's shoes, perhaps you have quite a few negative feelings about them, or maybe they've merely really treated you uncivilized, you know, there's, there's lots of reasons where you would, the last thing you want to do is think about what they care about is start by thinking, well, how does so, how would someone else see this conflict? How would my boss see it? How would our other colleagues see it? I would my spouse see it, right? Just trying to sort of, again, unhook yourself from your perspective, which is very narrow and likely not complete, right? It's probably laced with flawed assumptions. So start to think about how would other people perceive this, and as you slowly start to let go of your own narrative, you can then perhaps think about, okay, well, how does this person see it? And I think it can also be helpful, almost always, even with a colleague who we really maybe don't always see eye to eye with, we probably have something in common, you know, maybe we both have kids, maybe we both have worked at this organization for a really long time, maybe we're both new to the organization, is try to think about what you have in common, and that will help give, sort of loosen your grip, again, on your narrative, but also give you the entry way to say, okay, well, how are they seeing this? What is their goal? What is it they want out of this situation? It comes back to that shared goal, the nobler mode of the place where we can find some agreement, even if it's on the bigger picture, and you said something else a moment ago, Amy, that I think was so key is what's the goal I want to have coming out of this conversation? And I find this a struggle myself, but again, one of those things that's easy to see at others, right? When entering into a tough situation, it seems to be often the case that we don't tend to sit down and think when planning for a conversation like this, what's the outcome I really want? And you mentioned a number of them just a moment ago, and it seems like that's something we tend to miss, but just stopping and really clarifying for ourselves, like what do I really want out of this conflict, like this conversation I'm about to have? It seems like that really makes a big difference, just taking a moment to identify them. Yeah, I mean, I'm so glad you honed in on that, because we don't, we often don't do that, and we are, we are, you know, sort of behold into our instincts in these moments, which is never a good idea, because if you're in that fight or flight, you're either going to win or retreat, right? And those shouldn't be your only options. So, to really think through, what is it I want ultimately from this situation? I think it's one of the best tools. In fact, if people are short on time, because I know, you know, a lot of these conflicts don't happen, and you say, oh, you know, give me an hour, I'll go back to my office, and I'll analyze this, and then I'll come back with a response, right? We're often just on the fly having to come up with responses or to engage in these conversations. I think the one important thing, the most important thing is to think about what is it long term you want the goal to be, not in that exact moment, but in a week or a day or a month's time, what do you need from this situation? And that let that guide you in terms of how you behave and what you say and do. One of the other pieces of advice you have for us, and when thinking about preparing for a conversation like this is to avoid scripting out the conversation in our heads, and I know I've done this where I think it of like, okay, here's how this conversation is going to go, and here's what I'm going to say, and here's what they're going to say, and then like, and that of course, it never goes that way. Never, never. What is healthy to do around thinking about like how the conversation could go, and where does it kind of fall off until like not healthy? Yeah, so that's a great question because it is helpful to think through what you want to say. You do want to be prepared for the conversation, but if you write out, here's what I'm going to say, and this is probably how they respond. I can guarantee that other person is not going to play their role, that is just, it's not going to go the way you think. So I think of in terms of scripting, there's really, you want to know what you're going to open with, and oftentimes that's emphasizing the shared goal. Here's what we have in common, here's what we both want, and then talking about how this is going to require you, the both of you, collaborate in order to reach a solution, and you might even just say that, right? Like, you know, for us to get through this, we're going to really need to work together, or you might demonstrate that by asking them a question, you know, I'm really curious about your perspective on this, or I'm curious what assumptions went into that email. you sent last week, you know, just trying to signal that it's really collaborative. So I think having your first few lines scripted is absolutely fine. And sometimes I can handle, you know, help with some of the nerves that you might have going into the conversation. And then I really often encourage people to just have their three main points. What are the three things they need to get across? And those I wouldn't script, I would just, you know, jot them down on a piece of paper, have them available so that you can refer to them, because oftentimes these conversations go in directions we don't expect. And it can be easy to lose sight of what you wanted to say. But that's really it in terms of limiting the script. You know, I don't think you should write out responses to questions they might have, but you can think through those things. And I do think, you know, doing some scenario planning, playing out the various things that could happen, is helpful, you're not going to have a response ready for every single eventuality that could come, you know, could show up. But you actually then prepare yourself mentally that this is probably not going to go the way I think it will. And I can be agile, I can be flexible in the moment. And I won't be thrown into a McDowell hijack when it doesn't go the way I expected to. And if you know the big picture and the shared goal, then that doesn't throw you as much as if you got really caught up on, here's what I'm going to say at this point in the conversation, because the other party inevitably won't. And then it's like, okay, why I'm throwing off my game. And the distinction I'm really hearing from you on this is spend the time and the thoughtfulness to get clear on what's the shared goal. And two or three key points that you want to get across in the conversation. And don't spend the time on the, you know, I'm going to say this line at this point when this person says this, because if you get clear on the big picture, then whatever way the conversation goes, you know where you're trying to head overall for the relationship for both parties. And that's going to then stay true regardless of what is said in a particular moment. Yeah, I couldn't have said it better. That's exactly right. Yes, you've sort of got your North Star in terms of the goal. And you can keep returning to that. I've definitely spent time before I'm not proud of it, like coming up with the zingers, right? Like when they say this, I'm going to say this. And, you know, I'm going to catch them in this lie or, you know, all of those ways in which we want to trap or corner the other person. And it's just, it's just not productive. When you think about your ultimate goal, typically do, you know, trying to trap someone or corner them doesn't help you achieve that. It, it may give you that short-term boost of a huh. I'm right. Or I'm, you know, I know, I knew I was seeing this clearly and they weren't. But that doesn't help in terms of getting to a resolution that everyone can live with, which is almost always what you want. Yeah, I appreciate you saying that. I worked for Dale Carnegie for many years. And I often think back to his book, "Cottawin Friends and Influence People." And there's a chapter on letting the other person say, "Face." And I, I suppose there's a time and a place somewhere for the zinger or for the adversarial kind of thing. But so often, you know, it feels good in the moment, maybe. But it doesn't, then it sets up such an adversarial relationship long-term. And then that person that you're going to need to work with a week from now, a month from now, it just is not a good framework for handling a relationship while in handling conflict well. And if you can look at it from the big picture and allow some graciousness for the other person, I was just thinking we had an episode not long ago where we talked about how destructive it is to be humiliated and just the power in a negative way of humiliation. And whatever we can do in a conflict that can, yes, get our point across, but not humiliate or embarrass the other person like no one ever wants to be in a situation where someone, where they feel like they're coming out of a conversation like that. Yeah. And I mean, we know from tons of research on, you know, growth and development that humans don't change as a result of humiliation. In fact, they tend to double down on behaviors that have gotten them there. So if you're, if you want your colleague to change and to treat you differently or handle conflicts differently next time, you're better off letting them, you know, sure, you might want to help them see ways in which they've made missteps, but you know, embarrassing them, shaming them, none of that's going to get them to grow or change. You do a ton of work on thinking about gender in the workplace. And I know there are some gender components to how this shows up as well in conflict. When you think about this through the lens of gender, where do you coach in specifically with women, where do you invite people to think about this perhaps differently when you're looking at it through the lens of gender? Yeah. I mean, gender and conflict is an interesting topic. Honestly, it's one of my favorite to talk about because the research, it's, you know, I'll be honest. It's a bit depressing in terms of how women are treated in negotiations or in situations where they need to advocate for themselves. And that means, you know, we're basically penalized for advocating on behalf of ourselves or for being assertive or what is called in the academic literature agenda, right? So when we display those traits or those behaviors, people tend to not want to work with us. They tend to think of us as not likable, which means that there's just a narrower range of behavior that's acceptable for women when it comes to conflict, when it comes to negotiations. Now, that's the depressing part. But the good news is that a lot of what I'm talking about, you know, what I've talked about so far and what I write about in the book is those are behaviors that are helpful or tactics that are helpful for anyone of any gender. They just tend to be more imperative for women to use because, you know, emphasizing that you're interested in collaboration. You know, approaching the situation with empathy and compassion. Again, that would benefit everyone. Negotiations, conflicts would all go better if we used those tactics. It's just more important that women do so in order to avoid the penalties that we tend to incur from exhibiting, you know, more assertive behaviors. I'm conscious also that there's a responsibility that those of us who have privilege in organizations and are leaders as so many in our audience are to do a better job at supporting women in particular, but also all kinds of conflict and planning for conflict in organizations. When you see leaders who do a better job at supporting women in particular, what do you see that they do that really does help women to come to a more equal playing field when it comes to conflict? I mean, I think the most important thing is to normalize it. So one of the challenges is that women often hesitate to bring up a different opinion or to speak up because not only is there a risk in doing so in most organizations, there's an increased risk in doing so when you're a woman because you might be labeled as difficult or bossy or, you know, overly assertive or even angry, especially if you're a woman of color, there's, you know, another whole layer of stereotypes that get put on you. And so I think what leaders can do is really normalize that conflict is inevitable. We're going to disagree and to have conversations with your team. Okay, so when conflicts come up, how do we want to handle them? You know, and if someone raises something that makes you uncomfortable and makes the team uncomfortable, that's fine. It's, you know, it's okay to have that reaction, but stick with it. So the more you shut down those conversations, especially if a woman or a person of color has brought up a difficult topic, the more you're showing, it's okay to just ignore these issues or it's okay to penalize people for bringing up something that they feel passionately about or something that they disagree about. So I think it's much as possible to lean into that discomfort, say, okay, you know, this is making me uncomfortable, let's stick with the conversation, you know, really, really important to do. And also, when you tend to evaluate people, especially again, women, people of color, watch the words you use to do that. So if you have a woman on your team who often brings up difficult topics, you know, are you penalizing her for doing so when you talk about her to others or when you are doing her performance evaluation or you, you know, really try to make sure that you're fairly evaluating her behavior in the same way that you would for someone of a different gender or a different race. And make sure you sometimes you can even, there's a tactic called flip it to test it. And that's, you know, if you think of someone as having a difficult personality, would you say the same thing about someone from, you know, of a different gender again of a different race, you know, if they exhibited those same exact behavior. So really always watch the bias that you're bringing to the conflict and to the different conversations. What a great reminder to normalize conflict, especially in the moment. And I'm sure you have seen this and I have as well where so many leaders do espouse a desire to have healthy conflict. And then when it actually comes up in the meeting. They tend to want to table it or to ignore it or to push back on it, and what a wonderful place to lean in on a bit coming out of this conversation of the next time that that happens in a meeting in a situation to maybe lean in on that with a bit of curiosity and openness and finding out what's there, what a great way to start to normalize it and really match what's being espoused often. It's funny, I work with, I'm sure you see this too, which is that I work with leaders who say, "I keep telling you when I'm open, they should say whatever they feel, they should challenge this status quo, and yet people don't do it." I ask, "Well, how do you react when they do?" They're, "Well, of course, it's uncomfortable." It's like, "Well, that matters. You can say all the time, please bring me your disagreements. This isn't open, we should have open discussions on the team, but the minute you start to display discomfort when those topics come up, people are going to read those cues and just shut down." It's really also about, "It's okay to get uncomfortable, sometimes these topics are uncomfortable, but acknowledge that," and say, "You might see my face turning red right now, but I still want to be in this conversation. Let's stick with it. Let's get to a resolution, let's talk it out." You're really signaling, "It's okay, even though you might be reading my body language as it's not okay." Yeah, indeed. Amy, this has been so helpful. There's so much in the HBR guide to dealing with conflict that we haven't hit on. I mean, we've actually just zeroed it on about 10 pages. There's so much more on actually having the conflict. The follow-up, I mean, so much more in this, so what a wonderful resource for those who would like to get better at this, as I know, I would. So I'm going to link up to that in the episode notes and also this week's Weekly Leadership Guide. In addition, you have a bunch of other resources on your website that I can link up to as well, Amy, for folks who want more and go to the website, what would be a good place for them to start or where were they find? Yeah, so they can go to Amyegalo.com. And on the speaking page, there's a lot of videos I've done on these topics. There's links to all of my writing on hpr.org. There's just a wealth of information, and if this is a topic that you care a lot about, I do. You do, Dave, then definitely be in touch. Let me know. There's ways to contact me on the website. There's lots of resources there as well. Perfect. We're going to link all that up into the Weekly Guide this week. And of course, the Women at Work Podcast, what a wonderful resource as well. So I'll be linking that up to Amy. Before I let you go, one of the things I like to ask folks is what they've changed their mind on because leaders and experts are certainly always learning and growing as you've been doing work over the last year or two in thinking about conflict and gender. What is one thing you've changed your mind on? I'd love this question, and one in particular that comes to mind is this idea. I've really always, and I do talk about this in the book, is the need for empathy with the person you're having the disagreement with. And trying to put yourself in their shoes, trying to see things from their perspective. I do think that's important, but I've really dialed back on how critical that is. Partly because what I keep hearing from folks is that having empathy for someone who dehumanizes me, who doesn't care about me as a person, is a really tall order. Are you sure you want me to have empathy for those people? And now I think of it as you want to have empathy, but start with empathy for yourself, and start by focusing on what you need in that situation, taking care of yourself. If you have energy left over to have empathy for the other person, great. If you don't, you can still go through the other steps to prepare for the conversation, to imagine what they might be thinking, but you don't have to elicit the real empathic concern that I used to think was really important. I've really changed my mind on that and it's really changed how I speak about the emotional aspects of handling these conflicts. Amy Gallo is the author of Harvard Business Review's Guide to Dealing with Conflict and the co-host of HBR's Women at Work Podcast. Amy, thank you so much for your work. Thank you so much for having me Dave, this has been such a fun conversation. Several other episodes in our library that will also support you in preparing for conflict. One of them is episode 290, how to manage abrasive leaders. My guest on that episode was Sharon Bard-Devide. Sharon has a coaching practice where she specializes in working with very difficult situations and very difficult people. And in that conversation, we talked about how you, when you're in a leadership role, if you find yourself in the uncomfortable situation of managing someone who is themselves an abrasive leader and having a difficult time with their own team, how do you give them feedback and help them to adjust that behavior in a way that is more productive for them and for the team that's under them. Episode 290 is a framework for how to do that a three-step process from Sharon that when you find yourself in that situation can really help, by the way, even if that person you're managing does not have a team of their own. If they do come across as a bit abrasive, that model can be very useful in that situation as well. I'd also invite you to check out episode 497, the way into difficult conversations. Kwame Christian was my guest on that episode. I mentioned Kwame last week as well. Kwame is the director of the American Negotiation Institute, also the host of one of the most popular negotiation podcasts on the internet called Negotiate Anything, a wonderful complement to this show. In episode 497, Kwame and I talked about how to strategize about going into difficult conversations and some of the key tactics that he's seen work in his work as a negotiator and as a business attorney over the years and helping so many other people to do this well. And then finally, I'd recommend last week's episode 529, the way out of major conflict with Amanda Ripley, the focus of this episode's conversation was on healthy conflicts, some of the regular conflict we run into in situations. In last week's episode, Amanda and I talked about what do we do when that really becomes problematic and a healthy everyday conflict turns into a major problematic situation, perhaps for an entire organization. How do you approach that and what are some ways out of that episode 529 will be helpful for you on that? All of those episodes you can find on thecoachingforleaders.com website. If you haven't set up your free membership, do that today it'll give you access to the entire library of episodes searchable by topic, difficult situations is one of the topics this episode's filed under. We have many other episodes on this topic over the years. In addition, you'll get free access to all of the audio courses inside the free membership, as well as my entire library of articles that I've databaseed over the years that will be useful to you, plus all the member casts, my own personal book notes, and of course, a subscription to my weekly leadership guide that comes every Wednesday. It includes the links and the recommended episodes from every episode, and also many of the resources that I found for you that will support you in your leadership development each week. Coachingforleaders.com is where to go to set up your free membership for that. I will be back with you on Saturday for the Saturday Cast. It's returning this coming weekend. Occasionally, I air a Saturday Cast to share the experiences of one of our members or longtime listeners, and this coming Saturday, I'm glad to welcome Manu Masanti to the show. He is an alum of our academy and will be challenging us to continue to see the big picture and to look at things long-term. I hope you will join me for that conversation this weekend, so I'll see you back on Saturday. Have a great week!