Speaker 1Hi pals, welcome to the Hack Your Own PR podcast, dropping in here because I'm a little bit excited to tell you about the Hack Your Own PR on-demand library. Now, you don't have to wait for the next program to launch. Instead, you can access the on-demand library anytime when it works for your schedule. You can learn how to become a publicist in just four hours. And launching this week, we now have two new mini masterclasses, the go-to expert and the sellout brand, a product PR masterclass. If you are interested in finding out a little bit more about this offering, please jump over to my website. I'd love to see you in the on-demand hub. Welcome to the Hack Your Own PR podcast, where I chat with journalists, editors, producers, and publicists about the commonly misunderstood world of PR and how you can nail your next pitch. I'm your host, Edette Barry, publicist, PR mentor, and founder of the Hack Your Own PR program that teaches entrepreneurs how to DIY their PR. This podcast is recorded on Bundjalung country. I acknowledge that sovereignty has never been ceded. It always was and always will be Aboriginal land. Hi, gang. So, I have a question for you. I've really nerded out on ChatGPT over the last few months. And one thing that I found is that this is a fabulous tool if you are DIYing your PR. Now, the current students on Hack Your Own PR program have loved using the prompts that I've pulled together, and they have absolutely changed how much work everyone has had to put into their homework. And if there's one thing that I know from working with hundreds of small business owners is that time is limited. But it is one of our most leverageable resources. So, I've done the heavy lifting for you. And after a lot of trial and error, I have created the perfect cheat sheet so that you can hack your own PR using ChatGPT. In this resource, I have put together the instructions to help you lay the foundations to uncover what your story angles might look like. I've put through the prompts together for crafting a pitch to a publication you've always wanted to be featured in. And also mapped out instructions. And also mapped out instructions to write a really well-structured, beautifully cohesive media release for your next big launch. So, if you want to use ChatGPT to fast-track your way to media headlines, you'll want to grab this. Jump over to my website, odettenco.com.au forward slash ChatGPT cheat sheet, and you can grab a copy. The cheat sheet includes pages and pages of templates and prompts to absolutely nail your next pitch. It is evident that Jessica Smalley can not only produce a good or actually very good podcast, but she can also talk. She was made for audio, and she has known somewhat where she was headed from day dot. And you know what? She has an incredible ability to just make things happen. In this episode, Jessica Smalley talks us through exactly what it takes to produce Mark Boris' podcast, Straight Talk and The Mentor. These two pods are an incredible. Incredible resource for entrepreneurs, as Mark digs into the wild, the messy, and the challenging moments of business, and how successful entrepreneurs have made it work. As the executive producer of these top-ranking podcasts, it's Jess's role to delve into the backstory of incredible entrepreneurs and leaders to understand where their stories lie. In this ep, Jess talks us through the DNA of the two podcasts, exactly how to pitch to her, and how to prepare for Mark's. Oftentimes unwieldy and off-script approach to interviews. If you're an entrepreneur or a publicist who wants to get in front of 350,000-odd listeners each month, appearing on one of Australia's highest-ranking business podcasts, get ready to take notes, because this is a goodie. Well, thank you very much, Jess. I feel very grateful to have your time and insights today, and extra specially today, given it's your birthday. Happy birthday. Woo!
Speaker 230, flirty, and thriving. That's what they're supposed to say when you turn 30, so.
Speaker 1And are you?
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, I'm 30, flirty, and thriving. Say that really quickly for me. I can't say it.
Speaker 1Good one. Amazing. So we always start these conversations getting a bit of a background of how you landed, where you have in your fabulous role now. Do you want to give us the backstory of your career?
Speaker 2I'll take it right back. I was at UTS studying journalism, and at this point I was fully immersed in podcasts, but I just, you know, I was one of none. Like, whenever I spoke about podcasts in 2012, 2014, people were like, no, I have no idea what you're talking about. I think that was around the same time as Serial was coming out. So a little. A little bit more people were starting to understand what the hell a podcast was, but I was trying to figure out, okay, how do I get involved in podcasts rather than just being a consumer of them? So for whatever reason, I was introduced to the community radio station there at UTS, which is known as 2SER. And 2SER is one of the best things that I have ever done for myself. You're not paid. It's volunteering. But you'll get out of it as much as you put into it. And so from there, I went next door because some people might know that ABC, Ultimo, is right next door to UTS. And I thought, this is the big dogs. Like, you see Lee Sales walking around. You see Annabelle Crabb. Like, I just wanted to be inside the building, you know, and get immersed in it. So my first. My first casual gig was working on ABC Radio Sydney. And then from there, I did every single job that I could possibly do at Radio Sydney and try to move around the ABC as much as I could because it's so hard to find a full-time gig in media, especially when you're trying out. And went from ABC to 2GB, which are, look, polar opposites. Anyone who doesn't know, 2GB is mostly right-wing media. And then there's a few places that I've been, but then I eventually ended up at Triple J, which is pretty much where things started to shift for me because that's where I needed to be. That's where I sort of belonged. And that played into my comedy interests, my music interests. Like, everyone was bloody. Everybody was bloody weird at Triple J. Everything you think about Triple J is probably true, at least at the time. So beautiful experiences with Triple J. And then my contract ended. It was 2020. Pandemic. February or March or something like that. And I thought, nah, I'll be sweet. I've already got these leads lined up. But as you know, 2020. Awful. Pandemic. And so I was out of a job for about a couple of months trying to, you know, get by, figure it all out. And I thought, okay, what the fuck do I do? Like, this is just insanity. Like, everybody's closing down doors. People are getting rid of people. So many people are unemployed. Like, what chance do I have in securing a job? Anyway, I just thought I have to create something out of nothing. And so. I produced and created shows. Because obviously at that moment, a lot of people were listening to podcasts. Like, that's when things skyrocketed in that period. But I remember this one. And this is going to tell you how I secured this job with Mark. I was on Twitter. I'm not on Twitter. And I saw that this comedic group were breaking up. Doesn't matter why. But I just thought, well, this is such a brilliant podcast. It was called Were You Hot in High School? And they would interview comedians. Who were you in high school? Have you grown? Who are you now? Blah, blah, blah. And I thought, no, I can help you out. If, like, time and whatever. I'm like, I can make it work. Anyway, it fell through. Whatever. And they passed me on to other guys who. Marnie Smiley and Nat Demeter. And Marnie Smiley is known for his time on SBS. So, turns out that Marnie Smiley is a good friend of Nick Fordham's, who some of you guys might know is the owner of the Fordham Company, which is a PR agency, right? And he was looking for an executive producer. And so Marnie's passed on my number to Nick Fordham. And then I get this call from this guy who's like, just calling me nonstop on the phone. Just, when can you make a decision? What do you think? Mark Boris, you know, exciting opportunity. I thought. do I really want to do that like I know Mark from that the Celebrity Apprentice days you know it's really cool that he's doing something business related obviously but like do I really want to go down that route I'm more of like a music creative kind of person and this is the way that Nick Fordham works is that he calls you and calls you until you say yes and so I said yes and I'm sure Mark won't mind me sharing this story but the first time I ever met Mark he couldn't shake my hand because he'd been boxing in that morning so his hands were like in pain anyway we walk to his office and no one's allowed to go to his office and he's got his feet on his wooden table and he goes so what do you reckon you could bring to this role and I just told him everything that I could. And it turns out that he liked me I think it's because I'm not your average chick I smile a lot apparently that's what he liked he could see that I was a hard worker and I'm from Western Sydney he's from Punchbowl I feel like there's few and far there aren't many Western Sydney people in this type of industry so there might be a connection there but now I've been working with him for almost three years.
Speaker 1So Jess talk us through your role these days and what's in your wheelhouse.
Speaker 2I work alongside Jono who I like to call my right hand man and we're in each other's pockets 24 7 I reckon I see him more than I see anybody else in my life so thank god we get along we really work he's 27 so I'm three years older than him. And he's a bit like a younger brother but we're able to say put everything on the table because we have to constantly stress test ideas and you know you can't allow ego to go get in the way of that. So what do I do a large portion of what I do is podcast and Mark's podcasts and straight talk is one of them which I just need to say this bluntly it is not the mental health of a person. I'm a mentor so even though Mark has a business background and so he approaches it with a business lens but it's very much if you can sort of think about Joe Rogan and Diary of a CEO those two worlds coming together and then Mark Boris markifying it. Whereas the mentor is business getting down into the niche. I think that's a really good point. I think that the mentor is business getting down into the niche. Okay talk me through how you came up with that particular pitch for this particular person. How did you get your product into Sephora. Tell me the step-by-step process of creating your business so that the person who's listening to this can take your thoughts and apply that to their own business. And so we have other things working in the pipeline. My boss wants to live until he's 100 years old. So we need to figure out how to best go about that. And it's very much of the moment. 50, 45-year-old men, my boss is 67, but they're so focused on their health. And this is like, Mark is 67. He looks amazing. He's very focused on his health. Okay. So many, many people want to learn about this. He's firing on all cylinders. How do I reach Mark Boris level? What does he do? So we're working on something there. We also work in partnership with YBR. So basically anything that pops up in Mark's head, we sort of just make it happen. And there's a new idea every single day. So sometimes you just have to say, we don't have time for that. Or, yeah, sure. We'll get onto it. But right now, let's just make sure that Straight Talk is the best possible show. Number one in Australia, number one in the world. I want to kick off of a CEO from the top of the charts. They have about 30 people working on that show. There's two people working on Straight Talk. So I think we're okay, but I definitely want to be number one.
Speaker 1Amazing. Amazing. And so you're working on Straight Talk. Are you also across the mentor?
Speaker 2Across everything. Yep. Yep. Yep. Absolutely everything.
Speaker 1And so what does that look like from a day-to-day planning perspective? Maybe if you can talk us through what's involved in the production of the shows?
Speaker 2All right. So I'm always looking for a business that has a unique story. I'm thinking about the things that I'm using. I'm thinking about, you know, what's going on in the business. I'm thinking about, you know, what's going on in the What is the audience saying to Mark that they're thinking about the issues that they're currently going through in business? You know, this is such a tough time for small business at the moment. Like it cannot be overstated. Okay. Who's servicing that? Who's talking about these small business owners who, I think there's about 2 million of them in Australia who are, yes, rightly so, the backbone of this country. But for whatever reason, they get left out of the conversation. So what are their concerns? Can we articulate that down to the very sentence? They're not very happy with Phil Lowe. Okay. I can't get him on the show. But what I can do is bring on another business owner who has gone through some issues that are somewhat similar to now or has a really steady cash flow, who has a really steady cash flow, who hasn't previously had a steady cash flow, but has resolved these problems, right? How can they share their story with small business owners? That's what I'm looking for all the time. And the most successful pitchers with me are going to be the ones who sort of put their finger to the air and sort of understand the mood of the moment and can pitch that to me in such a way that understands the mental audiences and what they're going through. So I'm looking for those. And that's the pitching process. Sometimes, obviously, they'll come to me or I go searching for them. And I'll go through a screening process. I'll ask them a couple of questions. This is mostly through their PR. But I'll also explore their ability to have some sort of media presence. I will always ask for audio examples, anything. Somebody went to the great length of getting their CEO to record themselves telling a story, which I'm so thankful for because here's the problem with Australian small business owners or SMEs. They don't know how to tell a story. A large portion of them don't. And I'm sorry to say that because in our country, there's this thing called tall poppy syndrome. And so people are reluctant to talk about certain things or big note themselves, not even big note themselves, just talk about themselves. And there's an inability to share a story.
Speaker 1It's really interesting because I feel like a lot of the work that I do, obviously teaching people to put themselves out there, it's less often about here's how to pitch and get it out there. It's more the work before that, that you are worthy. You can put yourself out there. And one of the phrases that I repeat time and time and time again is it's not gross to promote yourself because in Australia, we're so tall poppy syndrome, imposter syndrome, every syndrome under the sun is running against our desire and comfort to put ourselves out there. But the second we unshackle ourselves from that worry that, you know, people are going to think that we're up ourselves or big noting ourselves and realize that actually, as soon as we start telling people what we're doing and we share the dark, the light, the hard moments, the exciting moments, those like, you know, milestones we're really proud of, that's when people can get to know us and can come closer to our brand. But so many of us are like, oh, who's going to care about those moments?
Speaker 2Totally. And that's what I'm thinking right now. And I'm, I, it's like, I'm of two minds. No, you've got to get your voice out there so that other people can understand this process of getting to, um, the mentor and so that we can share ideas and make at least Australian business owners better. Because I feel like if we stop putting people down or we stop, um, judging other people for having a go. Like this country, is just going to do so much better in terms of I mean we're already punching above our weight but we need to have this camaraderie amongst each other that we say look that was an epic fail but I'm not going to tear you down and make you feel worse about it and I think we just have to help that process yeah
Speaker 1I feel like in the business community um fellow business owners to business owners are like heck yeah I get that I understand that you're amazing keep pushing keep trying you know whereas I feel like in the consumer landscape there's less of that camaraderie because I think we've only shown glossy stories and so that we're I think the consumer landscapes may be like lagging a little bit in understanding how hard business is and the realities of you know we are a bloody resilient bunch as business owners we get knocked down we get up again and it happens time and time again but I think what people have been less inclined to do is also like share those hard moments um because they want to just put the glossy veneer forward
Speaker 2yeah completely and you know there's clearly a need for it and a deep desire to hear those shitty stories because the mentor is the number one business podcast in Australia um people need to hear those stories so that they can get through these tough
Speaker 1times totally totally yeah I think the camaraderie is amazing so you mentioned that you're um doing that vetting process to make sure that people you know understand the mood of the moment and also understand either of the two podcast audiences can you talk us through the two podcast audiences and how they differ yeah
Speaker 2definitely and I might just um quickly finish that uh up my previous point just because um sometimes people are curious as to why um because their pitch might be perfect but it might just not work for Mark like point blank um the reason why the show works so well is because he's blunt and he tells it like it is and he doesn't fluff anything up but he's also not going to tear down the show he's going to tear down the show he's going to tear down the show um sometimes the reason why it doesn't work for Mark is because I just know that he won't be able to play on that field you know it might be something like something that he doesn't regularly experience mind you he can talk about absolutely anything but what he really needs and I know that he will perform really well is if somebody were to challenge him and I think that's where um you'll have success with your um client is if they are ready to enter the ring and go toe-to-toe with Mark and follow where he goes with certain um things because he does say tell it like it is and he hates fluff he hates just you know just tell me how you really feel about this or let's just call it as as it is something that comes to mind is um the Sunday body which is you just you just wash it over you and this is not where he plays well with like it's just it's quite feminine and he goes I don't quite understand it but can you just explain to me why anyone would want to put foam on their body and have fun in the shower and that's what makes it really unique because he can ask these like it it sounds really simple of a question but you get a different answer for it and it makes that business owner think and if if that business owner didn't um go with Mark and sort of explore his thought process it wouldn't have been a good result so if your client is ready to come in with Mark and sort of explore his interests and has an ability to do that that's what I'm always looking for
Speaker 1I feel like um Mark's interview style is um a really open cross-generational ability and I probably haven't explained that right but in that you know for someone who's 67 it's like talking maybe to your dad but he's got he's got he's got that openness um and that curiosity that he's like no I don't get that and often it's a generational divide it's not having that lived experience with the thing that he's you know person that he's interviewing their ideal customer he doesn't have that like you know hands-on experience with what that is but he's got that curiosity and it's if you can meet that curiosity without defensiveness and stay open with his curiosity then that's where I feel like you always hear those really good conversations that he has where he'll crack open someone and they're like oh well hang on they have to like you know come back to it and go yeah no I do need to like decode this for you
Speaker 2yeah yeah and sometimes I'm thinking oh god you're really showing your age here Mark but which is fine which is fine right like we we need to get out of that habit right but what the end result of that is is I think to myself that is fascinating how you've sort of decoded that and gone into the intricacies of what this um product actually means and why you chose to do such a thing so he's in the role for a reason um and he definitely knows how to crack it but you just have to be prepared to go where Mark goes and as you said don't be defensive just understand that it is just curiosity that's all it is yep all right so I'm
Speaker 1going to take us back to the question at hand girlfriend the audience profile of the two pods
Speaker 2yeah so um small business owners that's who we're talking to with the mentor they just want to know what x means for y answer my questions on blah blah blah um I need to know how as I said at the top how I can get into Sephora who is that particular person that you spoke to these are people um at the coffee shop day in day out trying to find some time to find education and getting ahead with their small business whereas you've got straight talk which is a much wider net but these are people who are aspirational these are people who are disciplined curious they want to understand Mark a little bit more understand how he got to the level that he got to and also something from the guests where they can be a better human and do better for their life the listenership is 50 50 uh gender split but when it comes to YouTube and that sort of thing which is um we we get a huge um downloadership of males just because they're the people that live on YouTube mostly um but these are aspirational 29 to 39 year old um people who just want to fine-tune their life competitive get ahead
Speaker 1interesting one very much how to be better in business one how to be a better human and better at
Speaker 2life high performers yeah
Speaker 1yeah and in terms of the sort of circulation that you have across the podcasts what does that typically look like or maybe on average because I'm assuming it varies episode to episode guest to guest when you
Speaker 2say circulation what do you mean by that downloads oh okay um it definitely varies just depending on the guest but what's really fun is um there's a lot more trust in terms of the kinds of people that we bring on because straight talk is a relatively new show I mean it's been around for two years but you know introducing the audience to new people I'm just seeing that there's a lot of trust in the kind of people that we bring on because straight talk is a relatively new show I mean it's been around for two years but you know introducing the audience to new people I'm just seeing there's a lot more trust in okay Mark's speaking to Flex Mommy what the hell is going on there I don't understand but I'll explore it which is one of my favorite episodes mind you but at the moment I'm very proud to say that we're hitting around 350k downloads a month and I just you know want to hit a million a month and just go international and knock off diary of the CEO I mean
Speaker 1that's some pretty serious downloads as it stands
Speaker 2sure Mark is the man behind the mic but I'm very proud to um get those numbers because you know clearly there is a real need and a real desire to hear what Mark has to say about any
Speaker 1given topic yeah so if we were to talk about like the sorts of topics um from the mentor in particular uh what sort of business topics your audience really loves or really doesn't doesn't want to hear about like what's in that
Speaker 2mix you know what they really really really love to hear and the hardest thing to get out is and we've been touching on it so much is the really shit times and like the step-by-step process of getting out of that and we'll go into the nitty-gritty of um or mark will go into the nitty-gritty of um that process and who are the people that you spoke to or what was your headspace during that time but people just really want to hear that someone be authentic and share their true war stories and you know obviously they're okay because they're sitting in the room and there is always a light at the end of the tunnel like the end of the day that's why they listen to mark you know mark's gone through some hectic times in his life and for whatever reason people still think at least people who've don't listen to the show you know his men who sold his business to ge for 400 million dollars at a time when that was totally unheard of yeah he's gone through some shit times like it's not all uh amazing and music and butterflies and that's why they resonate with mark they just want to hear someone who's gone through the shit and been able to get out of it um what our audience doesn't really like to hear about to be honest with you anything that mark kind of talks about people were going to be interested in
Speaker 1it yeah well i know you mentioned previously that um often when brands are pr-ing themselves and they're in that growth phase they obviously have some key messages and things that they want to talk about which often the things that brands want to talk about are the things that people want to talk about and they want to talk about are the things that people least want to hear about and like investment and you know those going through rounds you know are times when brands really want to be on the front foot and be visible so that they can get as much money as possible and that and those things can often not be that interesting it's
Speaker 2totally fine if you come on to the show and you have an agenda i mean you know we're all here to support small businesses it's a symbiotic relationship but when it becomes a problem you start screening what you're having to say to mark and the audience and the audiences can smell it a mile away when you're sort of just not quite saying the thing that we expect you to say and you're sort of just saying the things that you think your investors want to hear and i mean even if you're not saying the things that you investors are in the same shoes as your audience you know but it's always scary to make that leap but at the end of the day audiences want to hear
Speaker 1truth yeah yeah i think also highly media trained executives can you know want to stay on company lines and you know not get too personal and whereas i think as business owners you know we are interested in like how companies grow but we also want to hear like what it felt like and you know the emotional side of it
Speaker 2as well totally
Speaker 1totally yeah um okay so do you want to talk us through a recent interview that you researched planned booked um briefed and then the post-production like talk us through end-to-end uh what it looked like
Speaker 2so this is a bit spicy which is hilarious uh mark is the only talent like as i said to you at the start i've worked with a whole slew of um people right now i've seen all shades of colors some people really want to research everything and they want their producers to go to the nth degree find these weird places that nobody's ever spoken about and i'll do that with mark but there's a lot of interesting stuff that's going on so i'm really excited to talk to you today and i left it in the um recording it's with ed cavali who's a comedian thank god you're here which is so much fun please listen to it it's so interesting but he tells the story of when ed arrived he goes to say hello to mark and mark had no clue we have a cafe outside and mark had no clue who this person and i need to tell people this because either he knows who you are through his own interests i think
Speaker 1you need to have a photo in that briefing
Speaker 2doc oh but here's the thing here's the thing he doesn't read it until two seconds before right this man loves to um fly by the seat of his pants 100 and thank god he's got 40 odd years of experience right like that that's where he it's not the right word but that's where he gets away with it because he's got this huge bank of information and he can go down all these different rabbit holes and stuff like that because he's got those years behind him and no doubt like this this man is so connected that whoever he's talking to they know someone who he knows and so there's always something that he can bring to the table that he hasn't prepared for in a brief but i will just tell you point blank i will do what every producer does as a producer but he will not read the brief must be very
Speaker 1satisfying for you yeah at least you're vetting you're figuring out is there a story there you're you know pre-interviewing and doing that screening and figuring it out and mark will find it right
Speaker 2the work is done in um the screening the vetting of the the guest really and getting that person prepared for someone who hasn't done any research and that's just what works for mark clearly there's something to it people like it um but very different to what i'm usually used to like he says a point blank on uh today's episode of straight talk um and ed points out that you were reading the brief right there in front of me while i was waiting for us to get into the show so
Speaker 1so yeah okay great okay so you've um had a chat with a pr or you've had a chat with the founder to scope it out what sort of pre-conversation are you having beforehand like what's involved in that
Speaker 2so i i just say point blank at the the start which usually helps the flow of the conversation and i can sort of gauge where this person wants to go with mark um which is at this present moment do you think you can provide small business owners like whatever you have to say resonate with them today and so they will rattle off all these reasons and i have to tell you i do not really care if you've made this amount of money in this short period of time because so has the next person that is reaching out to me i really am trying to find that unique side of your business something that we can sort of borrow down in and understand okay if that's your unique selling point how did you get there um let's do a litmus test of what's currently happening in the business environment um people are running out of cash flow at the moment okay when is a period in in your business lifetime that you thought i'm going to have to close up shop okay how did you get through the pandemic can we weave that in there um to this conversation with mark even though we don't want to talk about covid because everyone's over but like obviously this looming recession at the moment echoes similar things that happened during the pandemic so how can we relate that to now
Speaker 1yeah yeah well i think like it's fascinating that like combination of like a really tangible helpful advice piece with uh the human interest piece in there and like yeah it's such a funny one every journalist that i speak to is like enough with the covid stories but there's so many incredible stories that have come in the business world of either people having to completely you know do a u-turn in their business and restructure or god forbid say the word pivot or people having that real inflection point in life where they're like i don't want to be doing what i'm doing and you know like i'm not going to be doing what i'm doing and i'm not going to be like it caused that real moment where people created new things so i think the boom the spike of um businesses that emerged out of covid who are now going to have to step into the next few years of you know some of the toughest years for business that we've had for
Speaker 2a while oh totally and like if you can be honest about that like you had the best time during covid you launched a business everybody was buying from you blah blah blah and now you're coming into this looming recession period and you're thinking okay i've never experienced this before what are the things that i need to explore in order to make sure that i can survive um who are the people that you're talking to like you really have to dig if you want to come on to this show you really have to dig deep and understand your process of doing things and your way of thinking and understand how you can apply that to small business owners who want to listen to your story
Speaker 1so when you're um sussing out like the secret source of whether this person's going to be a you know good talent from a are they sparkly have they got like you know good energy have they got good advice they can share um have they got you know like a roller coaster journey and like those survival pieces embedded in there what other things are you looking for obviously like you mentioned that like how much people are making is not like a definitive yes or no how do you determine the credibility of them and whether it's worth your time is it you know years in business you know qualifications is there you know popularity size of audience like what um are those markers like indicators of your you feeling confident aside from them being a good story that they're a credible person to be telling a story
Speaker 2yeah and this is going to sound so annoying but it's honestly just coming down to a feeling isn't it like you kind of just know and i guess you kind of just know because you've had this whole heap of experiences um that tell you and indicate whether or not it's a viable business to bring on the show i mean we had lorna jane on last month she's been in business since 1989 what is she still doing in business um not usually people stay in their business for that long which is you know we have spoken to her in the past but there's a new angle to it which is okay why are you still doing this then what's driving you is ageism a problem for you um do you have an exit strategy and so if i think that it's worth revisiting an old guest because they have something new to share then that's what i'll look at obviously lorna jane everybody knows what lorna jane is at least in business and that will definitely determine whether or not i'd be interested in bringing them on the show sometimes if it's a really obscure business no one's really heard of and i'll be quite honest in this example but there was um harrison's an ai um that we had on late last year i think it was and no one's really heard of that business before and it's kind of difficult to understand what that business means but i knew it was going to work really well because mark has the depth of understanding um to explore that with you but my one hesitation is that um the guest has a accent and unfortunately if the guest speaker has too thick of an accent it's difficult for the audience to engage with but i knew that mark was going to be able to bring out that that energy this was also his first podcast that he's ever done before um which is also you're trying to figure out okay are they going to bring the energy that you need but his team worked really hard with him and they worked really hard with me in order to um provide the confidence that we could create a compelling episode so i'm just constantly talking to um the pr um sometimes i'll not all the time but sometimes i'll go to the length of talking to the ceo or whoever else that may be but you can usually tell how good the pr is and how good the guest is going to be you know you're definitely there representing your
Speaker 1client yeah okay cool well let's talk about that same thing but from a different lens and putting that all into a pitch email in terms of what needs to be in that email for you to go yep i can see this is going to be a good
Speaker 2fit can i be a little bit uh funny and say can you talk to me before you pitch something can you create a connection with me and make me understand um you can be a little bit uh funny and say can you create a connection with me and make me understand um you i have had success with people who have just met me outside for a coffee and just try to understand what the hell this minefield of trying to get onto the show with mark boris is like and they too have provided some insight of um a listener and what they perceive of the show like that's what i love because you can tell that okay i'll do this once i'll have a conversation with you once and engage with the producer about what they're going to do and what they're going to think of the show so i don't create a cold email and try and you know play a guess who of whether or not this will work um those are the relationships i really appreciate
Speaker 1i just want to just envisage your diary filling up with a gazillion coffee date requests yeah yeah i know
Speaker 2yeah open for other guys please book in uh open for coffee dates every day of the week if you're okay with five minutes of a chat i'll say yes to it but i literally don't have any time so don't be offended if i say no but i do appreciate a one-off chat just to figure it out but hey if you're listening to this podcast that's pretty much the coffee date right down and
Speaker 1dusted all your coffee caffeinated um podcast consumption is exactly okay so that email then what do they need to put in there break it down
Speaker 2so hi jess i've listened to this particular episode with lorna jane and there was this moment where she didn't quite know how to articulate why she was still in business that's really interesting because such and such has been in business for 40 years and he said to me that the reason why he's still in business is because he does it for his kids and he wants to be able to share this with other people and i think that's really interesting because i think with them what just something that tells me that you actually listen to the show it's not the mentored if you say the mentored i'm just like it's not gonna it's not gonna work you haven't that's the name of the business um i know it's confusing but it tells me that you haven't listened to the show yeah so just the fact that you've listened to it and then you can weave in your client and relate to something that recently happened on the show and then quickly in one sentence like what is your elevator pitch tell me what that business is about and why they're different to every other skincare business you know like why the hell is your business owner getting into an oversaturated market like that's interesting what's the thought process in that are they just do they honestly think that they can carve out something unique um and capture a certain impact on the audience or do they think that they can do something different and that's the kind of thing that they want to do and i think that's the thing that they want to do and i think that's the
Speaker 1of this expert can support those listeners to really optimise their life goals and breaking that out?
Speaker 2Yeah, you know what? I don't get any pitches for straight talk and I'll just tell you because not enough PR know about straight talk. The people who don't get it, they pitch a business to straight talk and that's how you know that they actually don't listen to the show and you think, well, are you trying to pitch to the mentor? But because straight talk is a higher calibre of guests, I'm mostly looking for them. But please come to me about straight talk. If you think that your client has something to say that they haven't been able to say to anybody else, like Mark's just going to get it out of you. And, you know, I keep going to. Today's episode with Ed Cavalli. But the reason why Ed decided to come on the show is because he listened to his comedian friends who were previously on the show and he knows who they are outside of the world of theatre, like just you and I, normal people, right? And Mark was able to get that out of that person and that was purely the whole reason why he decided to come on the show. Like Mark will get out the crux of who that person is and why. And he was able to make them learn more about themselves. It's, it's a therapy session, I would say.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's really interesting. I feel like there's so many podcasts that sit in that format in different niches. Um, one of my clients, Sophie Walker, um, from Australian Birth Stories, um, beautiful women come onto the podcast and talk through one of the most intimate, vulnerable, emotional experiences of their lives. And opening themselves up to millions of people listening to a podcast talking about that. But again, it's this really cathartic therapeutic process that people go through. It's a really special format. And with the right host who can navigate that, you know, with style and grace, it's, it's really, really special. All right. So we'll move along. We've got just a couple of questions left to run through. Um, if you were. uh, to give some advice to brands that perhaps can't afford a publicist, is there anything that you would recommend to them that's perhaps different to any of the advice that you've shared already?
Speaker 2Well, before even talking to me or someone like me, uh, I would do some media trading. Honestly, it's 2023. You should be on social media. Like you should be doing that consistently. It can look like a dog's breakfast and then get better over time. But as long as you're putting effort into that, that is your PR. And do hack your own PR. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Like nothing falls into your lap. You know that you're a small business owner. You have to put in those hard yards. You have to tell your story. You have to constantly, as Gary Vee says, sometimes I have to say my story like three, four, five times. People always ask. I mean, why to repeat myself? It's because there's somebody new coming to you all the time. And like, if you're not doing that and you can't afford a PR, like that's your free version of PR. So you need to get that craft.
Speaker 1Yeah. And I also think like the beauty of social media is it's that place to build your confidence telling your story and also to stress test which stories really resonate. Like when you get an. You know, engagement, you know, that's a story to extend and grow and play with more. And, you know, by getting that feedback, you're then honing your craft for when you pitch to do a collaboration or a podcast or traditional media, you've already told your story 10 times over and you know, which parts are like the heroes and the climaxes and where to drill into detail. Exactly.
Speaker 2Like, and I wish I could pull from an Australian. But Cody Sanchez is someone I'm so obsessed with at the moment because she came onto social media in 2020, but she's got this, like she's 36. She should be someone who's on social media ages ago. But for whatever reason, she decided in 2020 that now is the time to tell her story and how she builds her businesses, like document everything that you possibly can. And you know what? I need to take my. I need to take my own advice on board. I'm a communications person. Like I rarely post because I think to myself, who the hell wants to hear about this?
Speaker 1Hey, Jess, it's not gross to promote yourself. Exactly. Get the fuck online and share it. Like, it's so fascinating. And particularly in your work, like there's so many people be super curious to hear how you do what you do each day and what you're working on. And I know like whenever I see your pics pop up on social media with your. Yes, I'm like, oh, my God, how exciting, you know,
Speaker 2it's a cool it. Do it. We're here for it. I don't know if you've kind of realized, but I'm kind of doing a little bit more and I'm trying to push past the ick. Just get past the ick, Jess.
Speaker 1But everyone feels that ick. It's not like the people that are doing it are not feeling ick. Everyone feels ick at the beginning. The first time I posted a face to camera video on social media, I was borderline. Crying, so I know how uncomfortable it is at the beginning, but then you just become so comfortable and, you know, consistent with it. And it just the ick is back over there.
Speaker 2Exactly. And I heard this really recently, which is sort of propelled me forward. No one's going to see the shitty versions that you put out there, because if it doesn't do well, it's not going to be picked up in the algorithm. So don't worry about it. If. If it does really well, more people will see that.
Speaker 1Also, the shitty ones are normally the better ones because they're actually where you're being real. And so don't worry about it. They're all good. All right. So let's talk about an excellent interview. Obviously, that curiosity and openness. Is there anything else that you would recommend to people? Some advice before they jump into the studio? What should they be thinking about?
Speaker 2OK, so I think I'll just quickly jump into straight talk. Ed did his homework. He listened to previous episodes, Ed Cavalli, and he's someone who is playing on the same level as Mark and wants to, you know, he's a radio host, so he knows how to turn things around. He knows how to ask the questions. He's very curious. He goes down certain alleyways. And honestly, I've never seen Mark like that before. And what's brilliant about straight talk is Mark's sort of forced to talk about these things because he has to perform for his audience. So do a bit of your homework if you don't know much about Mark and I asked you to come on straight talk because you'll have a good experience.
Speaker 1My rule for everyone with, you know, even before you pitch, this is not just before you get in an interview, listen to at least 10 episodes or read 10 articles as a minimum so that you know, is it the right fit? And you are able to riff on things that have happened in their previous episodes, but also so you disqualify particular outlets that might not be a good fit for you because you'll know really well after 10 eps.
Speaker 2Oh, completely, completely. And the same thing for the mentor, you know, that can be easily applied to the mentor, you know, just do your homework and consider the things, the new things that you can bring to the table. If you are nervous, you know, maybe just come in 10 minutes prior to the recording and have a chat with me because I'm going to, you know, make you so comfortable and tell you, look, there's actually nothing that you need to be worried about because guess what? I can edit it. Like if you walk out of this and be like, I don't know about such and such. Yeah, I'll take it out because I want you to be the best that you possibly can. In this chat.
Speaker 1And also you want your guests to share the shit out of it. And if there's anything that's not niggling, like, oh, I said that thing, they're not going to be pimping it out, which is obviously very helpful for your audience growth. Exactly. And so if there's anything that you would candidly wish that talent or PRs would know, anything that we have left on the table?
Speaker 2No, just please don't call me right. After sending the email. Fair. Yeah. Yeah. And I'll just quickly say it's called the mentor, not mentored straight talk and the mentor, two very different things. And just be ready for me to say it just doesn't fit for Mark or that's great for Mark, but just be ready to explore some curiosity and know that this isn't your average business show, the mentor.
Speaker 1So. Yeah, it's number one for a reason.
Speaker 2that's it that's it bring your authentic self yes
Speaker 1totally and uh jess where would the best place be for people to connect with you and ask you for a coffee date or to pitch a story to you
Speaker 2i love linkedin as much as everybody hates it sometimes you know jono says i don't i don't know about linkedin you know the people are funny on linkedin but talk to me on linkedin just dm me um or send me an email and i'm going to say it maybe this will get me um into trouble with future jess but like my email is jess at mentored so don't get confused with the mentor m-e-n-t-o-r-e-d dot com dot au and i'll talk to you and i'll respond to your email always
Speaker 1i love like future dresses problems um out there in the ether you're welcome from current jess uh may it has been an absolute pleasure to have you on the pod thank you so much for having me out your time particularly on your birthday so if anyone doesn't wish you a happy birthday in a pitch email moving forward retrospectively then um they're gonna have to hop
Speaker 2into the bin yeah yeah and you know what that's how i know they've listened to this podcast so if you're gonna uh pitch a podcast i'm gonna have to hop into the to me between now and then just say happy birthday say happy birthday in like december and i'll be like oh yeah cool we should
Speaker 1probably caveat and say that this was recorded on the 29th of june so that everyone knows yeah exactly all right thank you so much my love thank you for having me and that's a wrap thanks for tuning in to hack your own pr if you loved this episode please go on over and subscribe review and even give it a shout out on social media you can find me at odette and co on insta until next time guys
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